This recruiter got 1,000 inbound leads in just 2 years, Here's how

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Andrew McGaskill. Andrew is one of those people that has certainly mastered the art of creating vibrant, thriving communities. In just 2 short years, he managed to acquire 1,000 inbound leads, many of which went on to become paying customers. I know, it blew my mind as well. The communities that he's built have helped thousands of individuals and also helped propel his business to new heights. If you conduct any form of business, especially online, learning how to forge powerful, engaged communities is an invaluable skill. In today's episode, Andrew's going to be sharing his tried and tested blueprint for creating unique, mission-driven communities. We're going to be talking about the fine balance between offering value and monetizing your community. Plus, Andrew's going to be talking to us about LinkedIn Live and how this channel had the biggest impact in allowing him to connect with his audience and grow his communities. And you know the drill now, guys. Grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hey Andrew, how are you?

Yeah, very good. Thanks, Sam. How's it going?

Yeah, very good. The audience doesn't know, but this is take 2 because I screwed up something on my microphone. So this does happen, guys. This does happen in the podcast world. Mistakes happen. What I said before was that I've been following Andrew for a while on LinkedIn. I've seen how good he is at building communities, creating valuable content. He's definitely mastered something that I want to share with you guys today. So thank you, Andrew, for joining us. Really appreciate it.

No, I really appreciate the opportunity and how you guys are leading in thought leadership within this space. So excited for the conversation today.

Thanks, mate. So we always start off the podcast with this question, which is: what's the most valuable tool in your toolkit, whether it be a strategy, mindset, or piece of software? What would you say, Andrew?

Um, without question, it's the belief that people value the questions you ask way more than the answers you give. And I think that's been a really massive shift for me, particularly in the last 10 years. I used to be one of those commercial people that couldn't wait to air my knowledge, show how clever I was, show up and throw up in sales meetings. And I think, you know, showing that curiosity and learning to ask great questions is the essence of not only making sales and great marketing campaigns, but also understanding communities and building value propositions that serve those communities. So I think it's the one kind of common thread that I continue to try and work on, it would be that.

That is brilliant, Andrew. I honestly love that, 'cause that was a big aha moment for me and Ben, I think you'd agree, Ben, in sales, which was speaking less, listening more, and asking more powerful questions. I think that's brilliant. What was— was there a moment when you were like, shit, I'm speaking too much, I need to be asking better questions? Andrew, what was the kind of moment when you— when your mind started to shift from that, from that, um, to that perspective?

Yeah, I don't know if there was an exact moment. A lot of failure, obviously, which provides data. Um, I think it's just people have explained to me at various points that actually you can't really convince somebody of anything. And I think that was the aha moment when I realized actually you can't really convince somebody of anything. But what you can do is ask great questions and create an environment where they decide that they might want to buy or engage with you. And that's probably the big shift when I thought, well, yeah, actually, like, nobody can convince me of anything. So why am I arrogantly thinking that if I talk fast and quick and air my knowledge and vomit my value proposition at these people that I'm going to be able to convince them. It makes no sense. So, so this, yeah, this notion that actually your job in a commercial leadership role is not to convince anybody of anything, it's to help them discover you as the solution or as somebody that they'd want to collaborate with. I would say that was a pretty seismic shift that happened over a period of time for me.

It's really interesting. Where has that kind of skill set been most valuable, do you think, Andrew, specifically?

Yeah, well, certainly from a pitching and hiring point of view, the way I would interview and pitch now would be very different to 10, 15 years ago for sure. But I also think from a— naturally from a marketing personal branding point of view as well, because people remember the questions you ask more than the answers you give and tend to lean more towards that. Through taking that kind of two ears, one mouth approach, as Sam described earlier, you just uncover way better needs and you create way better content and you build far more trust and mutual understanding and more partnership-based, more partnership-based solutions. There's a good guy called Ben Dennehy. Do you follow Ben Dennehy?

Absolutely.

Motated Salesman.

Yeah, yeah.

I love him.

I've known Ben for a really long time and one of the things he says is, "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still." And he's right. Like, he's absolutely right and he's got some really good fun stuff going on. But yeah, I think when it comes to really understanding what you do, the problems that you solve, and your ability to get people to buy from you and decide you are the solution to those problems, it all comes down to stopping trying to convince them of anything. The more you try and convince somebody, the more the barriers will come up, right? That's, that's what happens.

And I found that you, you can't truly provide a consultative approach and solution until you really understand, you know, their problems. Um, and so that, that's what I found as well. When you're providing, you know, for us, we offer multiple different things, but when I really listen and understand what they need, the solution sounds way more unique and way more powerful when I can attach it to, you know, the questions that I've asked and the answer they've given me. So that's a really, really good point, Andrew.

Yeah, well, totally, because whatever they're getting from us, whether it's your customer base or my customer base, they're not really buying widgets or a process, but what they're buying is a future. And a future that's actually better than where they are now, right? Like, that's, that's what we're selling. Forget about how you get from where they are now to the future. What they want to know is, you know, can we get to this better place where this particular challenge is solved or whereby this opportunity is fulfilled? And that's what they're trying to discover.

Absolutely.

Definitely. I would love to shift now to talking about building a successful online community, Andrew. You have done that very successfully, kind of linking in with your personal brand. You've done that very successfully over a number of years, so much so LinkedIn even asked you to come and join them and do a project with them, which is amazing. Why did you decide to start building online communities? I mean, you could have taken any route, you could have done anything. Why did you decide to do that in particular when that will require typically more effort and more time than any other method, if that makes sense?

Yeah. So partly by accident and circumstance, but partly by noticing certain trends. I think in the B2C world for quite some time, communities have been used really, really effectively. Yeah, SaaS companies have been great at this for a long time. Other organizations have done well, even to the extent when you look at the growth of brands like BrewDog or Huel. Like, Huel have the Hooligans, right? And BrewDog had the Equity Punks, where people even actually took equity in the business as well as buying part of their customer community. Like, so I'd observed, you know, both of those brands and various others in the B2C world doing a really good job at orientating people around a shared vision or mission and then building a community that served all of those people as well as serving the needs of the brand. But I didn't see that happening in B2B necessarily. And I think what we've tried to do and continue to try and learn about is how do we harness— because we've all got great opportunities to do so— how do we harness communities in a B2B sense that are hugely mutually beneficial, mission-driven, which they definitely have to be, um, and also ultimately deliver brand and commercial growth? So Yeah, it was really off of what I'd seen from some great stuff with some of the B2C side.

I would say it's really interesting. I caught a word there and that was mission-driven, Andrew. And I think it's such a great point that, you know, when you form an online community, typically the most powerful online communities stand for something and get people on board to kind of fight for a common cause. So, and I think if any community can, can harness that, you're going to create a much more powerful community. How does— how do you think someone would go about trying to like find that mission and then create something compelling to an audience? How did you go about doing that?

Yeah, well, from personal experience, um, so, um, you know, the first mission that we set out was that we were on a mission to end job search misery. That was it. So on a mission to end job search mystery. Now the thing about that is it's a a problem that's understood, but that people know is deeper than is probably already described. So it's kind of, it's a bit of an unmet need, but it's also something people understand. It's also something that pretty much everyone can get behind in one way or another. Like there's nobody who would go, but you know what, Andrew, I think we should keep hold of that miserable job searching for everybody who's been made redundant and unlucky enough to be on the job market. No one's going to have too much of a counterargument to that. And so having that kind of North Star allowed us to really then start to orientate people around that mission. But it was a very genuine mission from my perspective as well. I'd lived that and seen numerous other people live that. And so that was our mission before the pandemic started. Then obviously, once the pandemic started, kind of job searching and redundancies were going at a record rate. And we were very fortunate to be well-placed with a well-defined mission that met a need that was a bit unusual at the time as well. So yeah, that's, that's what I think in terms of how you discover it. It's got to be pain-based, something people can get behind, something punchy like I've just described that can be discussed quite quickly. Um, with FTI, we imagine a world whereby talent's no longer a barrier to life science projects, right? And it's You know, that's a major problem at the moment. So that's, that's a very clear vision and mission of this better world that we imagine. It's like, how the hell have we got to a point where amazing medicines and solutions aren't getting to patients because of the lack of talent in certain areas? We've got to solve that. So this, this is kind of giving you a flavor of the thought process, but it's, it's, it's really important. Trying to build a community without a shared mission is almost pointless, I would say, and going to be very, very difficult to get people, you know, really championing and helping you manage it. Why?

So you focus on life sciences, which is really interesting, Andrew. Why has there been such a struggle for people to fill vacancies in life sciences, and why— where does that problem stem from, do you think?

So we're in the midst of a life science talent crunch at the moment globally. Um, a number of things happening. One, we've got record numbers of people retiring. So that's a major challenge. We've got record numbers of people choosing self-employment rather than employment. So consulting, freelance, setting up as founders on their own. So self-employment in life sciences has doubled in the last 10 years.

Wow.

So one of our biggest talent competitors as an industry is people working for themselves.

Fascinating.

So, so that's a challenge. A lot of the historically science led people and graduates have migrated to tech in the last 15 years. Like, there's very little difference if you were to look at a, a competency makeup of a great developer and a great scientist. It's a very similar skill set. But historically, last 10, 15 years, certainly pre-pandemic, I think the pandemic's really shone quite a positive light on life sciences, but Um, I would say a lot of them have migrated that way, or into fintech for the money. So you've, you've had kind of a lack of supply of humans, more people than ever, um, deciding to go it alone, people going who would be amazing for industry going to other industries. And then as a result of that, you've got global competition, which has resulted in average tenure dropping below 3 years within our industry for the first time in history. Um, I mean, to the extent that you've got certain countries now within life sciences that you know, will fast-track your visa to get into the country. So it's that level of global competition. It's not just company to company, it's like country by country, region by region, scrapping over the brightest minds in the industry. Um, and it's, it's a hard one for people to transfer into as well. Finally, you know, you can't fit us three who've got commercial backgrounds for us to decide, right, we want to go and do, you know, biology within oncology and cancer. Next week we fancy giving that a go. Like, we can't just turn up and give it a crack with our transferable skills, right? Like, yeah, most of them are PhDs or whatever, whatever. Like, that's, that's where they've come from. So, so yeah, all of those things overlaid with the fact that the industry has doubled in size in the last 10 years, and that some of the newer elements like medtech and biotech, they're going to triple in the next 10 years. So there's unprecedented demand, lack of supply, way more competition than ever, and changing social trends that are hurting us as well.

Wow.

Interesting. I'm interested, Andrew, how would you define an online community, by the way? Because I think a lot of people might not know the actual definition, but like, how would you define a successful online community for yourself?

Well, a successful one is one that moves the dial closer to the mission coming to fruition, right?

That's it. Yeah.

I don't know why that rhymed. I'm not rapping that. Mission coming to fruition. MC Mack. There we go.

So yeah.

The mission coming to fruition is, is the ultimate success, isn't it? Because that mission can't be BS. It's got to be real. And so ultimately, if the community moves closer to that, then you're doing well. I don't define online versus offline communities at all. There was a study done in 2021 across 15 countries and thousands of people asking about community participation, whether their primary go-to industry group was online, offline, or a mixture of both. Only 2 out of the 15 went for offline. So that was 2021. I reckon it would be potentially even less on a country-by-country basis now. And I think it's omnichannel. So great communities will, will exist in more than one place and be omnichannel. So we've set up something called Lift Up, which the mission is to champion, connect, and inspire women across the life science ecosystem. And that includes an online group, that includes a WhatsApp group for some of the changemakers in there, that includes in-person meetups off the back of specific events, that includes a content stream, a live broadcast, right? It's like, it's, there is no online, offline, it's, it's just community.

Interesting.

That's really interesting. I think that's a massive shift in mindset for a lot of people, including me for a long time, actually, because you, when you think community in like in today's day and age, you instantly think online, Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups, just anywhere that people communicate online. But it makes— it's such a good point that actually the, the power comes in a mixture of all, all of those things put together. I think, Sam, your jiu-jitsu is probably a great example of that, isn't it, in terms of your— yeah, that's a great community using omnichannels to, to build that community, which is really interesting.

Yeah. That is really fascinating actually, because the community wouldn't be anywhere near— we have a WhatsApp group and we meet in person, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful if we didn't meet in person twice, three times a week, which is really interesting.

Um, jiu-jitsu is an amazing example because there's kind of like a values framework and an ethos associated with it, isn't there?

Yes, definitely.

Yeah, like a way that everyone conducts themselves, like we're kind of you're putting yourself in some pretty vulnerable positions with each other and you're putting a lot of trust, yeah, into each other. So again, there's a shared kind of values and mission and framework there, um, which is understood and is serving something bigger than anybody's individual ego or individual goals. True.

Yeah, that's so true, Andrew. That's such a great point. Um, in fact, looking at other— I've actually— and I've, I've analyzed, because the two guys that do it, Aaron and Kieran, they have mastered the art of, of starting an online community and getting people obsessed with the brand to the point where they will buy anything that comes, any merch they have, they will buy instantly. They'll, they'll take time out of their weekends to go and help the club. Like, this is an obsessed community. And so there's a lot to learn from other people that have done this, you know, outside of the online world, you know, jiu-jitsu clubs, sports clubs, whatever, gaming clubs. So that's a really great point, Andrew. Um, for business owners that are like Andrew, how did you manage to build your online community for, um, Executive Career Jump and, and Fraser Dove International? Can you, can you give us almost like a blueprint to how you did it? Um, Andrew, I know you, I know you won't be able to go through everything, but can you just give us a rundown of like where you started and how you managed to do it, if possible?

Yeah, certainly. So I think We've spoken about the mission and the North Star. That's the first bit. Then it's really got to be a personal branding-led content playbook. That's where you need to go for sure, whereby you are creating content that speaks to some of the challenges associated with that mission. That's very, very important. You then want to get into some of the omnichannel stuff. You need a pillar piece, sorry, of content, whatever that might be. For me, with CreateJob and with the Lift Up community that FDI are creating and the Life Science community that we're creating as well. We do the live broadcasts via LinkedIn. That's our, that's been our, our go-to. During the peak of pandemic, we had, you know, 300 people watching live, 5,000 people watching the replay. Like, it just—

wow.

And that really went big. So I think, you know, it's one-to-many but still feels rich and interactive and tailored and personalized. So I really like the live broadcasts. I think that's an important piece. And then you've got to continue to then create a team of maybe 5 to 10 people who internalize the mission, as you described, to some of your jiu-jitsu, uh, friends and colleagues there, and then act as a changemaker and champion for what you're doing and start to help get the word out, open doors for you, bring more and more people into the fold, um, and kick on from there. So yeah, other than that, it's good old boring consistency, not trying to monetize it too early as well. That's the other—

that's interesting.

I've seen, I'm going to set up a community, um, and then, you know, as soon as anybody buys into my mission, I'm gonna try and jump straight on them with a call to action. I kind of I, I kind of avoided that, um, but yet still got 1,000 inbound clients in 2 years whilst running a career job. So, so I don't think you have to hard press via funnels. I think the funnel piece worked amazing 5, 10 years ago. Like, I was early on to HubSpot and ClickFunnels and all of that, and I think it was amazing 5, 10 years ago, but I think people are savvy to the free webinars and some of the funnels and how they work now, and that we need to be a bit cuter around genuine community leading to genuine commercial opportunity.

That's really fascinating. I think the— what really— I mean, there were lots of things to dive into there, but when to do the upsell and when is the right time to sell? Because, you know, let's be honest, we all start these communities to help people as well, but there has to be some monetary gain in it as well. And finding that balance is where I think a lot of people struggle with. What— when did you decide to do it then, Andrew, and how did you do it? You know, you said you got 1,000 or 2,000 inbound leads, and which is insane. Like, did you just wait for them to come to you? Did you reach out to them at the right point? How did you know and when did you do it?

Yeah, so from a content point of view, I was running a really simple 60-20-20 type of playbook where 60% of the content I put out was complete value add. So 3 out of 5 days a week, just pure value add. I then had 20% that was more personal content, which as it suggests is stuff that was not related to solving the problem or the mission, but it's stuff that's more related to me and, you know, kind of showing vulnerability, sharing insights and just giving people a bit more of a personal window. That was actually the hardest bit for me, I would say. And then, but I know it's important. And then the final 20% was more of a clear call to action.

Interesting. Okay, cool.

So I think 60-20-20.

I think pretty much all of our clients can agree with the personal area being the hardest. Why was that particularly difficult, or why was that the hardest bit for you, if you don't mind me asking? Andrew?

Um, I think typical stupid bloke stuff around vulnerability is probably part of it. Um, I also think, um, I think I was in denial that people trust people more than they trust brands, and I was thinking through a traditional mindset in terms of the buying journey. So yeah, a mixture of not really fancying it and being a bit too fixed mindset around the buying journey. Again, I think I was still probably in transition around the fact that, you know, clearly people do actually buy emotionally and justify logically. That's what happens. So you need to engage their head, their heart, and their wallet if you're going to get them over the line.

Yeah, absolutely true.

If we had a business owner here, Andrew, in the room who was still skeptical about? Because I feel like a lot of people can get on board with the value and the call to action. And once you give them a little nudge in the right direction, that's easier. And I feel like, like Ben said, a lot of people struggle with the personal content. If you were to give your best piece of advice from going through that journey, what would you say to a business owner who's like on the fence of, you know, Andrew, I'm still not sure about, about the value in this and why I should even share any type of personal content. What would you say to them, do you think?

Yeah, well, certainly we know for a start that people trust people more than they trust companies. That's absolutely for sure. I also know from my own data here at FDI that our highest hit rate of pitch conversion comes when we're referred in. No surprise there. Yeah, but people still use Google, people still use, uh, SEO and all that kind of thing, but more likely now than ever— and this is where community comes in as well— people go to trusted contacts to ask them how to solve their problem. And at that point in time, you want to be the single first name that comes out of their mouth, because what we know from our data is when we're referred in, it's over the pocket, isn't it? Like, you've literally just got to knock it in at that point. And that was the same kind of experience I had with Executive Career Jump, which is why my commercial strategy here is to be the most referred life science talent consultancy in our chosen markets. That's it. That's our commercial strategy. Now back to the reason about the personal piece. People will more passionately advocate you and refer you if they feel they know you as a person as well as what you can do. So you're creating the opportunity for more referrals. And I've seen this— you've— sorry, you've opened a can of worms with this. Sorry, cut me off.

No, no, please.

This is a good topic.

Go ahead.

But like, I've seen this happen in real time. I'll tell you an amazing, like, breakthrough moment for me in terms of this whole being the most referred piece and how people buy now and how it all fits together. I was sat in Boston last year and we'd sponsored a major event for HR leaders and we had the keynote slot to talk about the talent crunch a little bit like I was talking to you about earlier. So we've gone heavy play on this event and there was breakout groups. So I'm sat around a table with 9 of my ideal clients, but it was exactly who we needed to be surrounded with. And one of them popped up, said, hey, we've got a market research challenge at the moment because we haven't done much work in Switzerland before. And, you know, we're really keen to understand more about what's going on in the Swiss talent market. And one of the other HR directors around the table said, oh, you want to deal with— they're called Armstrong Craven, I think— you want to deal with Armstrong Craven for this amazing market research. They're not cheap, but my God, the reports that they deliver are fantastic. And another lady from one of the VCs pops up, yeah, I've used Armstrong Craven. The way that they present that information just went down so well with our CEO. Now the other 5 or 6 people who hadn't heard of Armstrong Craven around this table started Googling Armstrong Craven. They actually put the— one of them put the website up to one of their current customers. Is this them? Yeah, cool. And, and it's filling out this form and going in. So the dudes at Armstrong Craven came in the next morning to 5 or 6 leads more than me who'd paid to fly to Boston, do the keynote, and sponsored the entire event.

Wow, that's nuts.

Brilliant story. That's such a great example, isn't it?

And that's how it works. That's how B2B buying is working. That's why community is absolutely vital. And it's also why you've got to put some personal stuff in there, because they're not just referring you— they're, they're referring— they're not just referring your brands— your brand, sorry— they're referring you as a person. And it's a major thing for them to You feel pressure, don't you, when someone says, can you recommend something for this? Like, you, you will only recommend people that you really trust are going to nail it because it's your own reputation, isn't it?

Yeah.

So this community play is an important part of becoming the most referred person in your market. And if you get that right, then you've basically uncovered the B2B go-to-market strategy as far as I'm concerned in this kind of online, offline quasi-world. Everything I'm doing is aimed at becoming the first name that comes out of the mouth when the question's asked, whether that's in WhatsApp, Slack, or sat around a table in a bit in Boston.

That's brilliant. I think it's a good reminder for everyone, including recruiters, because I think a lot of the audience watching this, listening to this podcast and watching, will be recruiters, is to focus on the fundamentals and actually providing immense value with your offering as a first port of call. Because as you say, uh, Andrew, that, that is one of the most powerful ways to, to get new business. And I think marketing just amplifies that, right? It just amplifies what you're providing in terms of value. So if there's no value there to begin with, then good luck advertising. You know, it's going to be an uphill battle, I think. So that, that's brilliant. That's a really good piece of advice.

Um, there was one thing, Andrew, that I found really fascinating. You said that you, you— part of the, the The blueprint of building an online community, you found 5 or 6, I think. I'm not sure if you refer to them as super fans to kind of get on board. And can you just go over the importance? Well, firstly, how do you, how do you choose and pick those people, but also the importance of those kind of 5 or 6 super fans who are driving the community? What part did they play in building it up? That's okay.

Oh, huge.

Yeah. You don't pick them, they emerge.

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah, the ones you'd want to be aren't always there.

So how do they emerge? What are the signs you're like, oh, this guy will be right, or this, this woman will be perfect?

Yeah, so it's, um, proactivity in the group settings. So in a group, right, you can quickly get, chuck 500 people in a group, but there'll be 5 to 10 of those people that will really early doors be posting content in there on top of what you're doing, interacting with anything. you know, starting to corral people, starting to make connections, starting to have individual discussions with other members of the group offline. And I believe in social media they call it eagles, like groups have eagles that kind of fly above and are, you know, kind of the big birds in the ecosystem. So they will emerge in that way. And then it's about championing them, working closely with them, giving them some status and a bit of a platform and asking them to also help you shape the agenda and building it out from there.

Interesting. And how do you keep— I mean, you kind of mentioned it there, Andrew, but how do you keep them motivated to keep on? Are they just already invested in the community and they're kind of on board with the mission, so they'll kind of just help drive it? But how do you keep them motivated to keep on building your community? Is there certain, like, trigger points that you found they're most interested in?

Responsibility. If you give them responsibility, that certainly helps, but you don't really have to motivate it because if they are showing up as an eagle in your group, they've already internalized it to some kind of extent. So no, I didn't find keeping them motivated as something that was a challenge, to be honest.

And what were the biggest things they were doing to drive the community forward, would you say, Andrew? Were they talking to other people and spreading the word? Were they distributing content? Like, what were the biggest things they were doing?

Yeah, everything from overtly posting themselves and championing it to opening up collaborations with other communities with complementary purposes. That was a massive one, right? So kind of diving into, um, for, for back in the, uh, CareerJump rise, it was like diving into other, um, complementary groups. And we're doing the same now with, with Lift Up. You know, there's a group called Chief, there's another group, um, Decat, that do some amazing events. You know, we're kind of— through our members, we now have access to other communities and members, and we're sharing our data, we're sharing our insights. They're doing the same. We're then getting this nice cross-pollination going on. So yeah, I think it's, it kind of— it's a bit like in a business, it can't all be about the leader. It can't all be about top-down. It's a group of people deciding to align around a particular mission and enjoying the responsibility and connectivity that comes from that. And there's no doubt we live in a world whereby we're more connected and less connected than we've ever been, and community we crave in a way probably that we never have, because it's always just been kind of a standard part of, of life for us. And yet all of a sudden it's not standard part of life and we have to go and seek it. So I think the appetite's really there if you get the tone right.

Absolutely love that. For someone maybe at the beginning of their journey of starting a community, whether that be offline, online, a mixture of both, what are some of the biggest things to watch out for that maybe you already learned from and got the scar tissue from? Andrew, what should they be aware of to as they're moving forward, do you think?

That people will initially be cynical.

Oh, really? That's interesting.

And that's quite upsetting, but I understand it. You know, I think it's been well documented, some of the entrepreneur tactics and things like this that have been utilized online. So expect some cynicism and don't be deterred buy that. Um, I mentioned earlier, not trying to monetize it too quickly. I think you need to pay into the emotional bank account and trust in the process and see this as a longer game. Um, people get way too fixated with ROI and attribution, where actually, I think, as I said earlier, how people buy and how you end up being the first name that people think of or refer in is a multi-touch thing. It's not just one thing that you can then go So for example, someone in your community you might also speak to, you might see them at an event, and then, you know, 6 months later they might Google you to find you to submit an inquiry. Now you can't then attach, attribute that lead to Google and spend a load of money on Google because actually Google was just the bottom of the funnel, right? And yet I think people get very caught in this kind of linear mindset of I need to attack, I need to be able to specifically attach something that's happening into the community directly to the top line. What I would say is it's part of your overall growth mix. And if you do community right and you do value proposition right, which is also incredibly important because that's how you kind of productize the mission in your customer base, and, um, you do all the normal kind of sales and marketing piece right, then the overarching trend will be growth. And you've got to trust in that overall mix rather than trying to completely analyze it down into if I put £1 there, I'm going to get £3 there. It's not as linear as that anymore. It was, but it's not now.

Interesting, interesting.

In terms of your actual value prop, um, Andrew, what do you think makes it so valuable?

Yeah, so this— I've been in post here for 15 months, and, um, one of the main reasons for joining this particular executive search offering at FDI was the value proposition that existed, but also the fact I was given the platform to develop that value proposition further. That was part of my role coming in as CCO, was grab a hold of this and let's communicate this in a way that we haven't previously. Well, I think it's important, particularly in recruitment and search, which I understand you guys do a lot of work in. Yeah, true.

Yeah, yes, very true.

Um, is that The vast majority of organizations don't have a single point of difference. And when you challenge them on that, they go, well, recruitment is recruitment, really. It's just about the people.

I've heard that so many times, Andrew. Honestly, more times than I can count.

Unbelievable amount of times.

Yeah. Well, that's wrong because yes, it is about the people. Of course, we're in professional services. There's no doubt about that. But in order for companies to buy, you have to hit the head, the heart, and the wallet. So the person might take care of the heart bit, but we've still got to hit their head and their wallet via our value proposition, which is explaining what makes us different, how it's going to generate different results, and most importantly, how we understand their world and understand their problem in a way that nobody else they're dealing with currently does. That is how you do it, um, and that is enough for them to then go through the painful, excruciating process of going internally and saying, I want to set up a new supplier. And it has to be compelling enough for them to go through all that BS because it is awful for them, right? They're going, oh geez, I've got to speak to HR, I've got to speak to procurement, I've got to get paperwork for it, I've got to fill out a form, I've got to do like— so if all you're doing is saying the same as everybody else, if the only point of difference you have is purely just your people, then it's not going to be tangible enough to stand out in the market. And I would also say if you haven't got clear value proposition in today's modern world, it's going to be very difficult for you to fight back against the rise of in-house talent teams. Very, very difficult. They've got more tools than you've ever seen in your life, right? AI, obviously LinkedIn. So our databases, uh, you know, are under threat. It's like the old database sales. Well, I've got 800— you know, the TA person got— I've got 850 million in my database that I can search all over the world. How many have you got? It's like 50,000. So So they've got the biggest database in the world, they've got AI, they've got technology, they've got the stakeholder relationships. A lot of them are very, very smart, very, very, very credible TA folks. So it's like, well, if all you really do is say, well, recruitment's recruitment, that, that's just not going to cut it. It's just not going to cut it. So I feel really passionate about the industry evolving to a place whereby organizations and people within organizations in our world can clearly differentiate and define their value. And that's been such an important part of what we've been trying to do here. And since we've done that, we've grown 70%. We're 52 people, we've operated in 40 countries, we've just opened Switzerland, the US, and we're going now. And a big part of that fuel that's growing is this differentiation.

Brilliant, sounds amazing.

Got a couple more questions, Andrew. I was— I'm really fascinated in the lives that you do? Because there's different channels you can use, the different social media platforms you can do, but you've been very consistent with live specifically. And it's a tactic that I've seen a lot of other community builders using and they've built very successful communities. Do you think specifically going live has made a difference to you building that connection with people? Or do you think you could have used anything, just posting content? What's your feeling on that?

I think it was the single biggest factor. Wow. Okay.

Interesting. And why do you think that was the single biggest factor?

I think, you know, ability to influence by word is one thing. Ability to influence by video is another. I actually came up with a kind of algorithm almost in my head at one point, which was kind of like, you know, a view of a video post, it's probably worth 10 that of a live, I would say. And then a view of a live is probably worth 10 that of a video post. And then a view of you in person at an in-person event is probably worth 10 that of a live. So I kind of think of it that not all views or interactions come in equal. And actually, therefore, a live is worth about 100 times— one view of a live is worth about 100 people viewing a written post, something like that. So I think it's incredibly valuable, incredibly valuable. It comes back to people connecting with you as a person, understanding what you stand for, and it's the interactivity. When you're commenting on things live, people really get a sense for the authenticity behind the message and your expertise because you don't know what questions are coming, and so your ability to solve those problems in real time builds a level of confidence that a written kind of well-thought-out edited article will never build, basically.

Yeah, so true. And, and the amount of lives I've been on to with certain influencers on LinkedIn, off LinkedIn, the connection that's built from me to the other person very quickly is fascinating just from going on to a live. So it plays into what you've, what you've said very well, Andrew. For someone that's been in the building community space for a while, done it very successfully, where do you see this going in the next 5, 10 years' time? Are there any trends that you're seeing that people should be aware of? Is there anything that, that you're kind of in the back of your mind saying, this is something I'm going to watch out for?

Yeah, definitely. So, um, I think from a community perspective, we've had an overreliance on LinkedIn. That's definitely something I'm thinking about. Particularly in the B2B recruitment talent world, right?

Yeah.

Um, and I also think as LinkedIn's become more social media in focus, that 20% personal stuff, um, has kind of got more than 20%, I would say, in terms of the whole platform. Um, and as the talent crunches here and people are, you know, if you're in an in-demand space, you're not going to want to be on LinkedIn because you're going to get absolutely hammered with in mails 10 times a day. I think people are starting to retreat into micro-communities in order to get their industry thought leadership, in order to get their peer-to-peer engagement. I don't think they feel that LinkedIn offers that for them in the same way anymore, which is an amazing, uh, opportunity for recruitment and search firms to be the brand at the epicenters of the most relevant micro-communities in their chosen markets, right? Now, in order to do that, we need to forget, get out of this client and candidate nonsense, right? There are no clients and candidates. They're not real things. They're just people that at any point in time might want to hire you for something, refer you for something, come to one of your events, or maybe at some point in the cycle might need help finding and securing a role. But they're just people. It's the same guy or girl that's sat in any one of those 5 or 6 seats, like this label of I'm gonna I'm going to talk to candidates today and then tomorrow I'm going to go after some of those customers. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, what on earth are you doing? So I think we'll— all of that nonsense will start to dissipate. And I think that LinkedIn will get to a saturation point from a content point of view where it's become too personal. People don't feel like they're getting the industry or professional value out of the feed that they used to. So they'll retreat to micro-communities. And I think if recruitment can get out that client and candidate mindset, then we are incredibly well placed to do well with it.

So Andrew, we typically end the podcast with this question, nothing related to what we spoke about really from the whole podcast, but tradition. So we have to do it if that's okay. Cold calling, yes or no, in your opinion, does it work? Is there a place for it? Should people leave it completely, get rid of it? What's your, what's your feeling?

Yeah, I don't believe cold calling is dead when it's well thought out. Um, I also think that there's real power in flying in the opposite direction to the trends in the market, and I don't think people are getting called as much as they used to previously. I also sense— and I don't know this for a fact, but just thinking this through, I'm kind of glad you tabled this because I need to spend some time thinking about how this fits into our own model— I also sense with people working at home and more remotely that it might actually be easier than it was previously to A, connect with people, and B, have a half-decent uninterrupted conversation with them.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, no, I don't think it's dead. I think it might make a comeback, and I think the people that know how to do it well, um, have got a real opportunity. In the same way as I think sending a letter is better than sending an email, because we've kind of gone to this tipping point now where I reckon people are— and I saw this when we were helping job seekers. I haven't applied it to FDR yet. So maybe that's another good takeaway from me.

I feel like I'm getting some good, uh, we've got some good takeaways too, Andrew.

So good, some good coaching from you. But it's like, yeah, I think finding the channel that's underutilized and written off by your competitors and using that as an opportunity to fly in the opposite direction and get traction where others are not, who are trying to over-engineer something or come up with the latest feverish way. I think it's quite good. And I think part of the community thing, which ties this all together nicely, is that, you know, the more digital the world gets, the more we crave basic human interaction. Yeah, I think it's very interesting that, you know, the fashion— the big fashions at the moment from a well-being perspective are walking in nature and meditation. It's like we've literally— we're in this mental digital age and we're going back thousands of years Yeah, to find our internal human to balance it all out.

Yeah.

So in short, no, I don't think it's dead. Yes, I think there's definitely a place for it. And I suspect, albeit I don't know, that actually it could be a really good channel for people if, if they mastered it.

Amazing. Great way to end the podcast. That was a mini masterclass in how to build successful online communities. I got so much value and our audience will as well. Thank you so much, Andrew, for coming on the pod. Really enjoyed the conversation, mate.

No, thank you both, uh, really appreciated it, very enjoyable. Got some good takeaways myself and reminders too. So thank you very much, uh, for the input and good luck for the future episodes.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.

Mm-hmm.