This Recruiter Made $1Million Cold Calling

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Alex Degolia. Alex started his own recruitment company in the banking sector and in just 2 years managed to turn over $1 million in revenue. And he didn't start with a silver spoon, I can assure you. After having his daughter at a very young age, he had to support a family while being absolutely dirt poor. But Alex had a vision and a dream of the life he wanted to live, and he worked his ass off to achieve it. In today's episode, we're gonna be discussing the most impactful and successful BD tactics that Alex has used to become a $500K biller. We're gonna be exploring the insane levels of persistence and consistency it requires to bill at that level. And we'll also talk about how important mindset has been for Alex in order to hit those numbers consistently. So, as usual, guys, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's jump into it, shall we? Hello, Mr. DeGolia, how are you?

I'm good, dudes. How are you? Really good.

Very, very good indeed. Now, uh, um, Alex is a dear friend of ours. We, uh, we love you very much, Alex. Um, so not only do we love you, but you're a brilliant recruiter. Um, you've been through quite a journey up into this point, and one big kind of stat that I love throwing out there and telling other people is that you managed to bill a million in 2 years in your company, um, as well as help countless candidates and countless clients. So You're a perfect person to bring on Top Billers Toolkit. Thank you for joining us, my friend.

Happy to be here.

Which, just to add, I think for your age as well, Alex, makes you in the top— I don't know what percentage, but top percentile of recruiters in terms of billing numbers. So, uh, you should be very proud of that, my friend.

Very cool. Yeah, I was— I always wonder, like, where do I stack up in the big scheme of things, you know? So it's, it's always, it's— I always appreciate hearing the outside perspective because, you know, you get in your own head and you're like, oh God, am I doing enough? Am I good enough? And then when other people are like, hey man, you're doing great, it's— so I appreciate that.

Yeah, you're welcome. You're always your own worst enemy, aren't you? Especially if you're competitive and, you know, you're a high achiever. It's always like you're your own worst enemy. And then when you compare it to other people, like, oh wow, I'm actually not doing as bad as I thought. You know, exactly, I'm doing okay.

Exactly, I'm, I'm okay.

Yeah.

Um, we always start the pod with this question, um, Alex, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be mindset, strategy, or software? What would you say to that, bro?

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this one. Um, and I— so here's one thing that I have that I don't— that I know nobody else has. And that is Integrity. Think about that for a second. She lives upstairs, so it's my daughter. So my daughter's name is Integrity, her nickname is Kiwi. Um, and so I think she encompasses all of those— the mindset, the strategy, and even, I mean, for that matter, the software. But I think I think it's, uh, you need something to keep you grounded and motivated, but also to remind you, uh, outside of the professional world, like, what's important. So for her, you know, I mean, and that's also the name of my company, shameless plug here, Alkai Consultants. So obviously my name's Alex, her nickname's Kiwi, and so I took the first two letters of our name and it's It's always just to— I know it's not Alki, it's Alkai. There's a whole reason behind that which I can get into if you want me to. But, um, I mean, you know, Sam, you being a new father, congratulations by the way. I know, I don't know if you've mentioned that on the podcast, but I think I've said it like 100 times. Okay, love it, love it, love it. You can never say it enough, you know. And it's, it's— you just need somebody to like be your North Star. I don't know, I don't use that word very much, but it's like you You just need to be reminded on the good days and the bad days why you do it and, and have somebody there pushing you and motivating you.

I love that, man.

Such a lovely answer. And it's so interesting because I wouldn't have resonated with that answer as much until I realized how much Sam has changed since he had his daughter. Um, Sam, you didn't really notice this because me and Sam were at the pub the other day and I was kind of telling him and he didn't really notice any changes. I was like, dude, you have changed like completely. You obviously— he's still Sam and he's still got all the amazing characteristics that Sam had prior to having little Akira, but he has changed so much as a person, been so much more driven and just on it with everything. And I know it's because he's got Akira, that motivation, um, in the back of your head, Sam. And it's amazing to observe. It's interesting. Well, psychologically it's really interesting. So when you say that, Alex, um, I truly believe you and understand how much of a motivator that can be, even though I don't have a child myself.

So thank you. You guys are so tight. Like, I mean, obviously being twins, you guys have a bond that's probably beyond most human beings. And I would say it— I mean, not being a twin, but having a daughter, it's like, man, you got— you two and then Sam and his daughter and Akira probably have a similar connection and vibe that you just can't explain. So, and even as an Uncle Ben, I'm sure too it's like you, you've changed also because now all of a sudden your brother has like, I mean, quote unquote like produced something that is like you two. Yeah, that's crazy, dude.

Yeah, I keep making jokes to Sam that I'm her dad as well because we're genetically identical, even though—

yeah, well, technically DNA-wise you are, right, dude?

It's nuts.

I'm like, I've got a daughter.

Yeah, when, when you whole— like, when you guys get around each other, does she look at you differently? Or like—

it was so funny. We, we, um, went to visit my parents on the weekend, and Akira was, um— I basically— me and Sam just went in front of Akira.

She—

I think it was the first, second time she'd met me, but first time I met her, she was a lot younger, so she wasn't as conscious of her surroundings, and she was just like going back and forth. She looked so confused.

She was like, oh my God, the hell is this?

Yeah.

And then she kept on looking, she didn't know who was who, and then Sam pulled a face and then she instantly locked eyes with Sam and was like, okay, that's my dad.

Yeah, that's crazy.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it was really the first time I've ever seen her do that as well. It was like proper darting from left to right. It was crazy.

Yeah, I see your brain working, dude. Yeah. Remember how we were talking about that when she was first born? You're like, I don't know, this is like, it's like having a little animal that you can't like communicate with because they're just literally reacting. And then you start to see their personality come out of nowhere. But also, dude, the coolest thing is watching your baby learn and like reason and sort things out. That's super cool.

Yeah, man. It's been an absolute trip. Like, amazing trip the last 3 months. As Ben said, it's changed my whole perspective on life. I would love to— we'll definitely come back to kids. I want to jump to just because I think you have so much useful information to share. Or at least perspective. Um, you're a top biller. You've managed to bill, as I said at the beginning, £1 million in 2 years. Um, what do you think have been the key components that have allowed you to hit that number? Because that's quite, I would say, an exceptional number. Not every recruiter can hit that, even working, you know, ridiculous hours. So what's allowed you to do those numbers in 2 years on your own, I might add? You know, you are a one-man team. You've done this all on your own.

Yeah, it's a really good question, man, because I, I always come back to— I think it's— I think it definitely is a mindset thing. You know, like, I've always believed in myself. I'm my biggest critic, like Ben was saying, but I've always thought myself capable. So I think it always starts with believing in yourself and like, just if you believe that you're the best or want to be the best and believe that you can get there, then the rest of it will follow. But I think, I truly think, you know, there's so many personalities that can thrive and succeed in recruiting, and that's what's so cool about recruiting. But for me, I'm just a very disciplined, regimented, routine-oriented person. I love You know, like, I love spontaneity and I love living it up and I love, you know, doing things on a whim. But at the same time, I also like to be in my box and to, to have my sequence every single day. And so I think the keys to getting to the million-dollar number independently is really just diligence to the basics. It's just doing— it's, it's in it. So I have a tattoo on my arm that says, always a work in progress, forever in love with the process. And so that is one of those things where you have to love, like, the in-between, right? You have a starting place and an end goal, but you have to love all of the doing first and foremost. And so for me, it's just like, I just, I love— I'm a big numbers guy. I know my ratios from a match and present to send out, a send out to placement, job order to placement, how many presentations on recruiting and marketing I need to have to get a resume to find a job order, those kinds of things. So I love the activity of achieving those numbers. And then I love to look back at the body of work and kind of just see, okay, where have I come from? Where am I now? What do I need to do? So it's just, it's just doing that. It's just daily, mundane, simple activity, but just like making it my religion and just doing it every single day.

I love that. And if we were to jump into that a little bit deeper, um, Alex, and go into those non-negotiable daily activities, what would that look like? What would that look like if I was, uh, a fly on the wall in your office?

It's funny because I think over our relationship and friendship and working together, we've kind of tried to figure out what those non-negotiables are independently and just kind of reinforce those. I think the biggest thing for me is just marketing. And I don't know what the rest of the world calls it. It's really cool to be on a world platform versus like a US platform. from a recruiting perspective, but I, I guess what you would call marketing in the MRI Network vernacular to the world is business development. So, um, so I, I think without question you have to market. You have to continuously find new clients, find new job orders, because without finding new clients and job orders None— the rest of it doesn't matter. So the biggest non-negotiable for me is always hitting my marketing goals or business development goals on a daily basis. And, and I— maybe for the sake of this podcast— I recruit in banking, um, typically on the West Coast of the United States of America, but generally throughout the country. I would say more so West Coast emphasis though. And so recruiting and banking, zero issues. I have zero issues talking to candidates or finding candidates, getting resumes. The hard part is finding the clients. So I try to do— and I try to do this in life too— is like, you know, the stuff you wake up and you're just like, gosh, it just nags at you and you're like, shit, I just gotta get this done. I try to do that stuff first so then I can enjoy the rest of my day and relax. Because when I'm relaxed and I'm loose, that's, that's when the boy works, you know, like that, that's when stuff starts to flow and things start to happen. So I try to just make sure I find that, like, that one thing that I want to avoid and just headfirst into that. And I actually enjoy cold calling and marketing. So I love the practice of that. I saw a podcast somewhere I think his name's Dave Meltzer. Have you guys ever heard of Dave Meltzer?

Or no, I will check him out though.

I, I'll send you the clip if I can find it. But basically he said like one of the biggest skills that you can have in our generation and younger is still phone skills, just calling, cold calling people and, and just being able to develop rapport without seeing somebody. So I've really prided myself on, on the cold calling and really Like when I first started recruiting, it was like, this is the most uncomfortable, awkward thing in the world. How do I make this to where it's comfortable? And I'm, I'm, I'm riffing now, but generally speaking, try to do the hard stuff every day for sure. Market, because I feel like if I market and hit the marketing numbers, the rest of the numbers just kind of fall into place.

Really interesting. And just to delve into what that— you said you did— you do the tough, uncomfortable things in the morning, Alex. Is that—

try to—

yeah, what, what does that consist of? Like, if that was someone else was like, I'm going to copy Alex and do that uncomfortable stuff in the morning, what is that uncomfortable stuff for you that you have to get done personally and professionally?

Like, all of it?

Yeah, both, I guess. Let's hear both.

Okay, well, so I've been grappling— I was just talking to my girlfriend Erin this morning about this, and it was like man, I need to get— you know how we were kind of talking about this a few months ago, you know, where you just— you're, you're in a routine and then all of a sudden without knowing it, you kind of slip away from it and then you got to recalibrate. So this is kind of a top of mind topic to me in general in terms of what are those hard things to tackle. This is going to sound so weird because you— I mean, look at us, very good looking bald men put together, right? But showering? Are you kidding me? Like, it takes so much goddamn time. And it's like, it's one of those things that just nags me. Like, as soon as I love to be clean, I want to be showered. But it's also one of those things that's like, if I don't do it, it just hangs over me. So it's like, I get up, I make my bed, I open up all my blinds in my house. I like, I call it opening up the house. Like, I start the computer, start the coffee. The— then sometimes I slip into sitting down and drinking my coffee, and, you know, then I'm fucking around on my phone, and then, then it's like, shit, what am I doing? You know, I just— I want— what I'm trying to get to is like, when you wake up and get your routine, I want to be relaxed but focused and feel like I'm in control of the sequence. You know, just so then I can, then I can give myself the excuse to look at my phone versus like, oh God, I'm behind because I've been looking at Instagram for too long about stuff I don't even care about, you know?

Yeah.

So, so depending on the day, it's either get up, make my bed, open up my house and go lift and come home and shower, or it's get up, shower, and then get to the rest of my day because for whatever reason, the showering part just centers me once I'm like clean in my clothes, ready to go. And then I, the first thing I do after I'm like, once I start to work is I write content. And, and that's, I'm also a big intermittent faster. So I love, I try to hit, excuse me, I try to hit 10,000 steps before I eat. Every day. Um, and so one of the biggest things in fasting is like I'm super clear and locked in and creative in the morning. And so I try to ease into the day, get myself centered, and then write, and then, and then sit down and start marketing. So, um, that's kind of the way that I get into the flow of the day is, is sit, you know, I try to write for an hour And again, I'm still trying to lock this in. So by no means to any of the listeners or Ben and Sam, I am not perfect at this. It doesn't happen every day. This is pie in the sky, but I would love to be sitting down at like 8 AM writing until 9, reset, sit down in my office because I have— I walk on a treadmill upstairs. Typically you and I, you guys were all— I'm walking on the treadmill talking So I try to walk and write at the same time and get some steps and just get moving and then come down and sit down and start marketing. So I feel like marketing and matching presents— I don't know what the rest of the world calls it, but like presenting a candidate to a job. I try to get those two things done first because those are like where the active— where, where all the money's at. you know.

Yeah.

And then do the rest of my day.

Love that. Match and present. We have a slight— I'm not sure if recruiters call it in the same way, I think speccing in a candidate, speccing in, or maybe they have their own phrase in the UK. Can you go into a little bit more detail as to what that entails? I know it's probably, um, probably not that many variations, but I'd love to hear how you do it, um, Alex, in terms of your match and present task or your match present, uh, process.

Yeah. So by way of training, just for everybody listening, I come from the MRI network. And so, so the vernacular that I'm using, the terminology I'm using is from the network. So MAP, we call them MAPs, match and presents, speccing. Basically what I do, so see if I can do this without knocking stuff over. I have just a simple yellow pad. And this is like my daily process. And so this is also like the bottom section. This is all where I write my content ideas. So like, I'll be talking to somebody on the phone, get an idea, boom, write it down. I also, just so everybody knows, I am a shitty note taker. I suck at taking notes. I write them down and I look back, I'm like, what the hell does this mean? I have no clue. But I also have realized that if I don't write it down, I will definitely forget about it and I definitely won't do it. So same, same along those lines. You know, I've got certain jobs and people that I recruit, and as soon as those people come to mind to present, I'll just boom, put them down on the piece of paper and write down the company. That I want to present them to. Um, I don't know much about other industries, but, uh, if I was working on a commercial loan officer position in San Francisco, California, or the San Francisco Bay Area of California, if I find one person, I can probably present them to 5 to 10 places. So understanding that, you know, It just depends on who I recruit, who I come across, where they fit. But then it's just a simple email. Like, it's really not— I found that, you know, maybe my style— I'm gonna preface this— I think my style is very casual compared to like a formal, quote unquote, executive recruitment company. So my present presentation is like, hey, Sam, see attached, it's Ben, you know, see attached, Ben Miller, and he's interested in your position. Let me know when you want to talk to him. Just very simple, stupid, simple messaging. And then if I then, then if there's questions, then I follow up and have a conversation. So it's It's just like that. It's just simple like that. I've also been recruiting for 9 years, so I've got a lot of rapport, and I don't have to be as formal with people as I used to be because I've been in the game a little bit longer and have some longstanding clients and relationships too.

Yeah, what I find interesting about that, Alex, is, um, most people when they're pitching candidates or sending any kind of email usually send like a bloody 10 paragraphs, don't they? And yours is like so casual it catches them off guard is what I think is going on. It's like, oh, this guy's not trying too hard and it's very casual. And there might be some other things going on that I'm not aware of, but that's the kind of first thing that comes to my mind. You're not doing what every other recruiter does, which is pitching the hell out of it and sending them paragraphs of emails.

Um, and that is like both a personal and professional aspiration and value of mine always is to be as authentically me as I can be. And also realize and like be different. I want to be different. I want to make sure that when I connect with a candidate or a hiring manager, that they're talking to Alex Degolia, not recruiter Alex, not professional Alex. I mean, you know, we all have our professional voices at times, but it's like, as much as, as as quickly as I can get into being authentically me, the better, because then you can actually relate to people and understand what they want and people's guards are let down. And you, you know, not that I'm trying to like, gotcha moment, but it's like, I want to hear, I want to hear what, like, what their pains are, both, you know, from a company perspective and a candidate perspective. Like, what the hell do you want? Like, I'm okay with being told no, but you got to tell me what you want. So when I find something, we know it's a good fit for everybody, you know. Um, but to your point, Sam, like, being too wordy— there's so much shit out there. Like, I was just talking about being distracted by this damn thing, you know. It's like, it's the coolest thing in the world, but it's also extremely distracting. And how do you cut through all that, you know? It's by, by being too wordy. Nope, nobody has the, the bandwidth or the attention span to read this much? Why not read this much and get them on the phone? Like, the whole goal is to get somebody to talk to you. That, that's it, you know. So I'm not trying to educate somebody or elaborate on a position or, or anything. I'm just trying to get them to talk to me, and then I'll explain it.

Interesting. From the feedback you've had from clients and the people you've spoken to, Alex, what do you think out of the What do you think gets you ahead? To, to— because you— I think you're simplifying this process, and I'm sure it is a simple process, but I'm sure there's a lot of finesse and/or other areas that we haven't touched upon. But if there was one thing that gets you in front of these clients and gets them responding, is it the authenticity? Is it the volume? Is it the quality of candidates? Is it all of the above? What do you think gets you that meeting? Do you think Persistence. Interesting.

You know, I think what one thing that cuts through always is like, barriers of entry to recruiting are very low. It's not hard to get into the game. But what you have to do, and everybody gets a phone call. But I've been calling— I was just telling somebody this the other day, like, I've legit been calling people like 3 times a month for 9 years and never talked to them. But goddamn it, they know my voice. And at some point, at some point, there will be an opportunity for us to work together. So for me, in my mind, I'm always going with that mindset of like, you don't need me now. And I get that you're not responding, but at some point, you're gonna need the boy. And we're gonna work together somehow, you know, So I think it's, I think it's persistence. It's like, all it is, is, you know, and I'll even tell you my sequence, I'll send, like, let's say, I use the CRM system PCRecruiter or PCR, I send in a roll-up, I send an e-blast. So it's like an email with like highlighting the candidate. I'll call all those people 3 times. And then I'll send the same email after those, that, those 3 calls. And sometimes I hear from people, sometimes I don't. I'm sure it pisses a lot of people off. But also, you know, people just, if the issue, I always say this, if I don't hear from you, I am going to haunt your dreams. But as soon as you tell me no, I find I'll be in touch with you again later, you know. So I think it's, I think it's consistent and persistent communication to the clients.

Um, so that, that, um, line alone showed me how persistent you are, is that you said you called the same person 3 times for 9 years or whatever. Like, that's insane. This is crazy. But that's— and it's really interesting when I hear and listen to other top billers, that, that's the level of persistence and consistency you need in order to get to that level. Um, I had a question, it's completely gone out of my brain.

I'll jump in, I've got one, so don't worry, Sam. So that's really interesting. So, and what about cold calls, Alex? What do you— let's say you call them and someone actually picks up the phone. You don't have to say word for word, but what is that kind of— what's the tonality? What's the opener? What do you— what do you say to them to kind of get their attention? Is it just referencing the candidate, or is it something else?

Yeah, I am. So, so here's something that's important to me too. Before recruiting, I was not in any sort of sales capacity. I've never been a quote unquote salesman. Well, I think in evaluating my life, I have done sales without realizing it. But, but when I first came into the game, I came from an 8.5-year career in higher education. And so, so The biggest thing for me was trying to sound natural, relaxed, and not too salesy. Because I don't want to be like, hey, Ben, Alex Tagolia here from Alkali Consultants. How are you? You know, like radio voice. But I— so I just want to be as casual as possible. And granted, I can be— I can and should be better about this. But like, if you pick up the first thing I say, and I know a lot of people say like, don't say how are you, but it's like, Hey, Ben, this is Alex DeGolia from Alky Consultants. How are you? I'm good, Alex. How are you? I'm good. Hey, I'm calling. I'm an executive recruiter. And I'm calling you because I'm working with a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just go right into my pitch. And I, and I do pretty assumptive closing questions like, so I wanted to see when you wanted to speak with this person, something like that. And a lot of times, you know, it's like, Oh, we're not interested. And I don't know, the old sales way is like, hit them 3 times and make them tell you no 3 times. Because, you know, when you walk into a grocery store and somebody's like, hey, Ben, do you need any help? The first thing you do, even if you do, you're like, nah, I'm good. And it's like, you know, so you got to kind of break that down. But I'm also like, man, I don't want to be a dick on the phone either, you know. So it just depends I kind of like have that opening and then I try to see how they react. And if I can kind of weasel my way into getting another no, I will. Or if I can just leverage that conversation into like, if you don't need this, what do you need? Okay, you're not hiring. When do you plan on hiring? You know, I try to, I try to be like, just tell me no, fine. But I try to keep them like in, in the MRI network and on PCR, you have this thing called a 5-point. And it's basically 5 questions that you ask everybody, like everybody in, in the world is worthy of a 5-point. So I try to like stay on the phone for like 5 minutes, like, can I just get to the 5-minute mark and ask enough, even if it's the most awkward, you know, angry conversation? Can I, can I get to 5 minutes? So that's what I try to do.

That's really interesting. Absolutely love that.

I remembered my question, thank the Lord. Um, what I wanted to know, Alex, was, uh, your persistence was, was kind of highlighted in my brain. Have you tracked how much of your business has come from the initial point of contact versus the follow-up? Because my, my instinct is telling me you're persist— you're so persistent, there must be a ton of business coming from the follow-up. But do you know roughly, like, where the business is coming from?

That's a really good question, Dale. Um, so of my almost 9 years in recruiting, I spent 6 and a half of those at Management Recruiters of Coeur d'Alene in the MRI network. So I don't have that data anymore. So the only frame of reference I have now is from Alkai Consultants. And I don't know offhand, but I would I would say just based on gut feeling and just general knowledge, it's not that first call. It's, it's very rarely that first call. Wow.

Yeah, that's what I suspected.

That's really, you know, it's probably okay. Like, I remember in the beginning of my career, I called this guy and he finally answered and was like, nah, we're not looking for that. Look for this. Like, okay, you know, and I found that. It wasn't reflecting back like that was a shit candidate. I had no clue what the hell I was doing. But I thought he, I thought he was what he was asking for. So I called him and he finally was like, all right, you got one. And he said, okay, let's put an agreement in place. So it's like, it's, it probably takes 1 to 3 conversations for me. And I don't know if that's good or bad. It's just the way that it kind of works with me is like that first call, if I'm calling Ben, it's like, I just want to I'm gonna pitch somebody, you tell me what you want, what the culture is like. Okay, cool. Regardless, I'm going to call you again with somebody different. And we're just like, I kind of chip away at it. I call it, uh, there's a phrase called keep chopping. Basically, if you keep swinging that ax, eventually the tree will fall. So I'm just like, I'm a brick by brick, swing by swing kind of guy. Um, so it's probably 1 to 4 conversations.

Hmm, really interesting. And very rarely it's in the, it's in the initial point of contact. It's all, it's all in the follow-up.

Just really, if it's, if it's initial, like the initial contact, it's, it's typically when people reach out to me like, hey, we're looking for this. Yeah, you know, which is a different— it's not cold calling, but yeah, um, very rarely do I pitch somebody the first time and just like make a $40,000 placement and move on with my life. Very rarely does that happen. I can't even think. So in the MRI network, we call it the impact player. And it's basically the candidate who's got the skill sets that are desired in the market that you call people about. By the way, I, I never call anybody without a reason. I hate checking in, following up, or just like, hey, just wanted to see what's going on out in the market. They're like, never calling somebody back like that. I'm calling you because I got a fucking reason to talk to you.

Interesting.

But very rarely. I don't even know if I've ever placed an impact player. Maybe 1 to 2. Like, for me, the impact player is the reason to call somebody and open the window or open the conversation up. And then I, then I place typically after that initial. So the impact player is super valuable. I feel bad because I never place those people. But, you know, they're— yeah, so it's very rarely like, you know, my whole life I've never been, oh, Alex is just going to show up and ball out and just win. I'm I have to show up and work for it. So that's just kind of how my desk flows also.

Love that. Two biggest things, just to recap for everyone, that I got from that, Alex, was your— the money's in the follow-up. So consistently following up. If they, if they don't say yes the first time, second time, third time, fourth time. And most importantly is having a reason— well, not most importantly, as importantly— having a reason to jump back on the call. Because you said that if the first candidate isn't right, you're coming back with another one. Like, you're not just going back saying, hey, what else do you know? You're going back with intent and a good product, which is a brilliant candidate, which I just find really interesting.

Yeah, because sometimes, like, that initial call, right, you got a commercial loan officer or whatever, and they're like, well, we're not looking for a loan officer, Alex, we need a deposit operations manager. So I dive into that and And then I either, if I've got somebody, and this is one thing that I love about recruiting and this is how my head works, I have, I have a really, really good memory. And so if somebody says, I'm looking for this, this and this, very rarely do I go, I don't know anybody. Like there's times where I'm like, oh shit, I can think of like 5 people right now that I could present. So I try to pivot immediately and go, well, you know, I am working with somebody who's, who's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Would you want to talk to somebody like that? And then that, to me, that's the leverage to get the fee agreement in place and then start the process.

Um, interesting.

So, but sometimes it's just casually like, ah, you know, just kind of flippant, we're looking for this, let us know if you ever find somebody. It's like, okay, you know. And then, uh, sometimes I'll call with just like, I just go on these campaigns. So I have a new impact player, boom, I'm calling everybody that, that's relevant And sometimes I don't know if people are going to like this back in the day and still sometimes I'll call the wrong person on purpose, meaning if I have a commercial loan officer and I'm calling a chief lending officer, you know, that's a relevant connection. But I'll also call the chief financial officer and he'll be like, what the hell are you doing, Alex? This guy doesn't report to me. You should call so-and-so. Okay. You know, 'cause sometimes you'll call the chief lending officer, he won't answer. You call the CFO and he's like, don't bother me, Alex, call Ben. And then he'll give me Ben's information. Then I can get into Ben, right?

Very good.

Or they can give me another job order. Well, we don't, loan officers don't report to me. Well, who do report to you? Who does report to you? Boom, they tell you the different roles. What are you looking for in your department? Boom, here's what we're looking for. I mean, you just, you know. Interesting, wow.

Has that worked a few times, Alex?

Oh dude.

Yes, really?

Wow.

Yeah. And, and if— and, and so I'll define what I define as working, right? For me, what working is, is having a conversation and learning something. That's a win for me. I don't care if it's money or not because I feel like the money will come if I'm learning and having dialogue and expanding on each conversation. So if I learn something or get like some more insight, contact information, updated cell phone, whatever that's a win for me. That's a successful call.

Yeah, yeah.

Even if it's a bad number, that's a successful call. Like, cool, because I know this number sucks. Boom, it's out, right?

I love that. I love that, mate. Yeah, big mindset shift. Um, one thing I'd love to get your perspective on, Alex, but especially because you are and have been such an advocate of cold calling and a lot of the kind of old-school recruitment tactics, but a lot of your focus, especially this year and half of last year, was content and building your brand. Um, for someone that has come from, you know, the old school recruitment tactics and still advocates for a lot of them, why did you just start— decide to start building your brand? And what's the difference between brand building and cold calling? Like, why should a recruiter even consider doing that, man?

I think so, back in the day it used to be to legitimize yourself in any business is to have a website, right? You still need a website. It doesn't have to be crazy, but you still need one. And then it was you need a website and LinkedIn. You know, you don't need a crazy LinkedIn, but you still need one to be legit. Because if somebody looks you up, they want to at least see that you exist. We'll get into that later. But it doesn't have to be anything elaborate. But I think one thing that's super important, and for me, I'm a I'm creative. I love to make music. I've loved to like make— when I was a kid, I was just telling other people about this. I've always liked to write lyrics and rap. I've always liked to film videos and edit and like just make stuff. So for me, content is like the adult version of being creative, you know? And, and so, uh, and you two have really helped me with this. Find my voice professionally because I've always— I think for me personally, I feel like I've got a unique story. I think we all do, but I love to tell my story, where I came from, who I am, because being authentic resonates with people and they don't forget me. We do business, you know, we'll eventually work together. I can't tell you how many recruiters I've talked to that have said like, yeah, man, I'm looking at this opportunity. I just— What the hell is the name of the company that I'm working with? It's like, dude, I don't want anybody to not talk to me and be like, oh, Alex is my guy. Like, I talked to Alex DeGolia at Alkai Consultants, and they at least remember me. Like, he had an opportunity. I'm not into it. But like, they at least can talk to another recruiter and say my name, you know. So, so, in a long-winded answer, branding is just another way of legitimizing who you are and showing insight into how you work, what you know, but also who you are. And it helps you cut through all of the noise that's out there that we were just talking about, right? Like, how do you stand out? And you too, And I know that this is not the point of the podcast, but you two have really helped me gain a confidence about talking professionally. And I can't tell you guys, I probably hear this every day now is like, dude, I love your content. Keep posting. We love what you post. We love your message and the way that you say things. And, and this is my style, but everybody's like, you just tell it like it is. And we love that. Because there's sometimes I post and I'm like, Oh shit, this can be bad. You know, it's like a bomb dropping, you know, because I, because I shit on the industry sometimes and, and, and because I get pissed. And then other times I compliment and I try to come at it from all angles, but I try to do it in like, if Ben, Sam, and I were drinking a beer together, what would I say, you know? Um, but I think what's, what's really uncomfortable is posting I feel like a kid from Dillon, Montana, because that's where I grew up. I just, I feel, I, I'm 36 years old, I feel like that 17, 18-year-old kid still, but also like with a little bit more experience and knowledge. So I'm like, I'm confident, but I'm still like, I'm just, as my, as my daughter would say, like, I'm just a kid, like I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

That's what I feel like too, dude, sometimes.

Yeah. Yes. But you guys were both like, dude, you are an expert, you are good at this. And I think every single one of us as recruiters have a unique perspective and take on things that we should be posting. Because it's educational, it's helpful. It's also like, I don't want to work with people who aren't ready for me to push back a little bit, you know, like, especially for a company standpoint, like, because recruiters because of barriers of entry, there's a lot of shitty recruiters out there. And then you get lumped in with them and treated like that. And it's like, no, no, no, I'm not about to take that, you know. So like, part of it's putting respect on your name. Part of it's articulating that you are an expert, and then you try to be helpful and authentic along the way. So I know I'm just going on and on and on here. But I think content, just like a website and LinkedIn, is just important to the overall brand because you as a recruiter are a brand. Doesn't matter what company you work for, if it's you independently or you with a big firm, like, who you are is the brand. People work with you, not the company, in my opinion, you know. And that was a huge reason I went independent was, uh, when I told people like, hey, if I leave, would you guys work with me? And everybody was like, dude, we could give a shit about what the name is above the door. We want to work with Alex DeGolia. And I was like, that's everything, right? So like, your personal brand is your business.

Yeah, I wish more recruiters started working on their personal brand before they went out into the real world. I feel like that's one of the best things they can do, not just for business owners, like for solo recruiters, but for consultants that are working in big companies actually building their brand, learning how to market, learning how to get inbound, and then going out on their own. I think they just— they would find it infinitely easier. But I think that brings me on to my next question, Alex, which is one of my favorite questions of all of them today because it gives us such a good insight into who you are as a person. Um, you told us once, you know, while you were billing while you're billing, you know, half a million pounds a year, you take time to—

Dollars.

Half a million dollars. Sorry, sorry.

Get it right. Englishness is coming out. I'm kidding.

I was saying, yeah. No, no, don't worry. While you're billing half a million dollars per year, Um, you go to restaurants and/or bars washing dishes and/or serving. And I just— when you told me that for the first time, I was like, this is crazy. This is so cool and so unique and so strange as well. And I feel like you need to tell the world why you do this.

Yeah. So, so this is— you guys are getting the exclusive. This is, uh, never been put out into the, uh, the world aside from like my personal life. So My younger brother Kyle is a bartender out in Seattle, Washington. He's— he works— lives in the Ballard area of Seattle. And, um, my little brother is the most creative, fun-loving person in the world, but he's also one of the most lost people in the world. And during the pandemic, he fell into bartending. And was like, you know what, he's, he's done damn near everything. He's got amazing stories. He's traveled and lived all over the place. He's done all sorts of jobs, and it's never been good enough. And then all of a sudden, boom, he, he tries bartending, and it's totally his wave. He serves people. He gets to be creative. He gets to be funny. He gets to be charismatic. He gets to be within the buzz of the social world. And, and he's starting to find his purpose. He's 3 years younger than me, and I've just— I'm, you know, I love my little brother to death. And so it's, it's one of those things where when he finds something that he's passionate about and it gives him direction, it's like, we need to— we need to push Kyle that way. Like, let's just fully embrace it and go full send. And as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, Man, I'm all about being independent and doing it on your own and making your own money. It's not for everybody. But I feel like my little brother can do it too. And in him becoming a bartender and finding his passion, which is in the service industry, we kind of had this idea like, dude, what if we started a bar together? You know, what if we did what you and you and Ben are doing, Sam, and just like You know, go into business as brothers. And, you know, he's got a long way to go. He's got to still learn the industry. He's got to manage people. There's a lot of steps to that. But I, I just said, you know, I'll help Kyle realize his dream of being a business owner and embrace something that really gives him purpose. But in order for me to partner with him and start a bar and start a company together, like, I legit need experience. I don't want to be the guy who just buys the bar and I'm like, everybody do what I tell you to, and I have no clue what the hell I'm doing. No experience, nothing. So I decided, you know what, I'm going to start— I don't want to say from the— a lot of people say like, oh, you started at the bottom, work your way to the top. No, no, no. I started at the beginning and worked my way to the front. And so I started, I just, I just thought, you know, there's a, there's a little sports bar like 2 blocks away from me. I love to eat and drink there. I'm like, fuck it, I'll just apply for a job. They're always advertising, they're always hiring. So I just applied. Yeah, making half, you know, $500,000 a year in recruiting and just was like, I'm gonna go be a dishwasher, make $7 an hour or whatever it was, you know. And the whole reason was not to like say I'm better than anybody or like I can come in and do this. It was more so like I'm doing this for my little brother. I'm going in to learn and work my way to the front and earn it. And because I think what I found throughout my life, because I've had two professional careers now, you know, one in higher education and one in recruiting, there are— I don't take shortcuts. I always take the stairs. I don't take— I don't try to go the fast way. One step at a time, brick by brick, swinging that axe. And so for me, it's like, and I, you know, let me start as a dishwasher. My goal is to start as a dishwasher and work my way up to become a bartender so I can say that I've at least done all of it. I don't want to say I'm an expert in any of it. I want to at least have perspective. And understand what it's like to be in those shoes, literally be in those shoes. That way it'll make me a better business owner and it'll make me a better manager. It'll make me understand the business holistically. And even if it doesn't work out, let's just say Kyle goes his, his, you know, a different direction. It's still fun because I went to this bar and restaurant, you guys, and I fucking love the people I work with. They work their asses off. It's, it's so humbling because I go in and I'm like, I can't believe these guys are living off of these wages. Like, like, I only work one day a week, maybe, you know. I'm pretty particular with my schedule. I try to protect my time, make sure that I have time with Kiwi and my girlfriend Erin and, and my business. But if I can squeeze it in, I squeeze it in. And every time I go in, I just like It's a burst of energy. Everybody's so fun. It's cool. You're working as a team, you're working your ass off. And I think that was one thing that I've always loved. I'm a big sports guy. I love playing my position as part of a team. And so I get that fulfillment in working in the restaurant. So I've worked my way from dishwasher to line cook. I've fried chicken, made fries, made pizzas, made salads. And worked my ass off with those guys in the trenches and realized this shit is hard. And I've worked my way to the front now where I'm, I'm like taking orders over the phone and like, you know, kind of doing some support of the bartenders. But the ultimate goal is to become a bartender. And the whole reason is to gain perspective and experience and just really brick by brick build the foundation to be able to start a business with my brother whenever that, that case may be. But it also keeps me humble, and it also keeps me young because it's hard work, and you know, you got to be prepared for it. So it's, it's, it fulfills me in a lot of different ways.

I love that, man.

I remember when you told me that, Alex, I, I found it so hard to comprehend that you were making that money and going back and washing dishes. I don't know why I found it so hard. I think because my— if I was to put myself in your shoes, my ego would be damaged. And I'm just going to be completely honest, I would, like, struggle to do that.

Did you have—

was there any battle of the ego for you? Was it, like, just cool because you were doing it for a greater cause?

And you—

was there any—

anything like that?

Or— not at all. Um, you know, when you go into a situation, and, and I mean, let's not get it twisted, like, I do have an ego, and I've had to, like, work on that my entire life. You know, but, but you ever sit down in a spot and you're like drinking a beer or whatever and you're like, man, you mentioned just having a job where you don't give a shit about it. You're just like, you come in and you have fun and like what? Like, you know, when you're, you're a kid and you're working like these shitty jobs and you're like, if I didn't rely on this money, this could be fun. And so it was like I kind of always fantasize like, you know how fun it would be to just be a server and just like not give a shit.

Have like a million pounds in the bank and serve someone like crab cakes, like his crab cakes.

Yeah. Or like, or get pissed at you because, because they got the wrong fries and you're like, I don't give a shit. I don't get paid enough to even care about you. So it was like one of those things of like, let's just do like a kid job but enjoy it. And also, so when I showed up, like one of my best friends from the restaurant is 19 years old. Shout out Eggs!

Shout out to my guy Eggs!

Yo, but Eggs was 18 when I showed up, right? And he was— he trained me, like, and then another guy, Adam— shout out Adam— uh, he taught me everything on the line, like cooking and stuff. Like, he's 24. Like, those two guys are my dogs. Like, I love those dudes. But yeah, no, I walked in with no ego and just said, I don't give a shit who's telling me what to do, I want to learn this. So I don't— I'll play my position, man. Like, I have no issues with people telling me what to do and showing me how to do stuff or chastising me, whatever, because I'm in their world. And I'm not about to go in and be like, wow, like, I make way more. Like, I'm not too good for the place is what I'm getting at. It's like, I love going in and just being an anonymous employee that gets pushed around. Like, and I don't get pushed around per se, but, you know, but it's like, no, no ego. It was like, it was, if anything, it was a good, like, centering experience to go in and just like, and this is crazy, you know, but it's so fun. And to be a part of the culture, and also I respect the fact that they do that full-time and like, that is their well-being in their life. So I'm not about to come in and be pretentious and tell them what to do, or that I'm better than whatever the job is. If they want me to clean toilets, bro, I'm cleaning toilets. Like, I don't have any issues with that. Love that, man.

I feel like that story, when you told me that, it gave me a whole different perspective of who you are as a person, in a good way. Like, I learned so much about you, your morals, your ethics, what you're prepared to do, how you want to learn, your mindset. Like, that's why it was so I told— I remember getting off the phone to Ben and being like, Ben, did Alex tell you the story? And it was like, I just told him everything.

It was—

but in a cool way. It was like amazing.

Yeah, dude, life's work, right? Life is constant work. And so I think as soon as I heard that and accepted that, it's like my mindset has changed on everything. Like, you just keep working every day and just, just keep stacking those days together, and that's when the good things happen.

You know, 100%, dude. Um, I can't believe we're coming to the end of the pod. There's one other area I kind of want to dive into, Alex, and it was, um, a few moments in your life, because we've had a few conversations about your journey up until this point. And one that comes to mind was when you visualized the boat, the house, and the car, and you told me there were specific moments of you visualizing it. Can you tell me that story? Like, how did it come about? And can you just— for all the people that don't know, can you just unfold that story for people? It's okay.

Yeah, yeah. Um, so my daughter was born at— when I was 20 years old. And so she— I've not achieved anything in my adult life without Kiwi in tow. And when I, I kind of was forced into higher education, you know, I was it was '08, you know, we were in a recession. I don't know if we were in a recession, and it was— things were not good. You know, I was still in college, could not find a job. And so I got into higher education. And in higher ed, the, the culture is different. The goals are different. The goals are always— and they're not— they're noble goals. They're to help people. And it's all about the other, like the output. And to see the, you know, your hard work and how it impacts people. And I think I've taken that into recruiting because that's just as important to me. Like, it's so cool to be able to help a company achieve their goals and help an individual improve their life and have had a hand in that, like, and get fucking paid for it. Are you kidding me? It's so cool. But one thing you really couldn't talk about was financial goals. Like, I wanted to climb the ladder in higher education and one day become a president because that's where the money was. Like, I, you know, I have a problem with working in a noble industry but not making enough money, you know? Like, my girlfriend was a teacher and she was scrounging to survive and had to leave the industry. Like, there's something wrong with that. In, in the United States of America, we need to pay these professions more because they make such an impact on our youth and our people. But the culture was never about— you could— you just couldn't talk about your personal goals. But I was like, man, you know, I've grown up with a young daughter. We were struggling. I'm in— I'm working my ass off in college and work, and I'm, I'm still struggling to make ends meet. So if I'm going to work hard, I might as well get paid for it. And that's— and I always have had these, these tangible goals. I feel like if you set a goal, it's like It's got to be just out of reach. Like, you can get there, but with some effort. And so I kind of, I started kind of visualizing, like, what did I want out of my career and my life? Like, what was that next step? And I was 28 years old when I started recruiting. And I just had, for some reason, I just unconsciously had this vision of I want a house. And parked next to the house is a boat, and in front is a BMW. And I don't know why it was those things. Like, I live in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, in the panhandle of Idaho, in the inland Northwest of the United States, and we have a lake. Like, literally, for me, it's a 7-minute walk. There's a tourist lake, like a huge tourist attraction here. Like, Kim Kardashian lives on the other side of the lake, Mark Wahlberg. You name it, they come here and visit, right? But it was always like as a kid, as a young man walking by the lake, I'm like looking at the lake going, man, I can't wait to have to make it and have enough money to be out on the water and not— and look at people from my boat on the shore and not be looking from the shore out on people on their boats. And as soon as I got out on a boat, it changed my life because just the culture, the lake culture, being out on a boat, it's just so freeing. And so it was just like I built this vision in my head, um, and I think it's important to have noble goals of helping people to keep perspective and keep you grounded, but you also have to have tangible goals to go get it, right? Like, you, like, there's, there's nothing wrong with stroking the ego every once in a while. Like, you need a healthy balance of keeping the ego damp down, but also like man, I'm gonna flex on these hoes for a little bit, you know, like, you need a little bit of both. You need a little bit of both. And so, yeah, and so that was it. Like, uh, uh, that was it. I wanted to buy a house because my daughter and I have rented our entire lives, and we had to move when leases were up and trying to make ends meet. And I just wanted her to have her own bedroom, you know, and have her own— you know, now she's got the entire upstairs, like, I just wanted these tangible things that, that, you know, money doesn't help or money isn't everything, but it sure helps, you know. And so it's— that was it, you know. So it's like, over time, is it exactly what I visualized? No. But do I have those things now? Yes. And I'm so happy with those. Like, it doesn't have to be— you don't have to have the million-dollar mansion or the newest car. Like, my BMW is a 1998 BMW Z3. I call it my sexy little summer car. I literally use it like May through August, and then it's too cold and snowy here to use. But it's like, man, putting the top down and just cruising and just listening to music, either with my girlfriend or my daughter next to me, it's like there's nothing better. And then being out on the water, so it's, it's, you know, you're just, you gotta constantly strive for something. I feel like, um, it doesn't stop. It'll never stop. You gotta accept that it won't stop, and you're never going to be fully settled or fully make it. I fully accept that. But dude, there's nothing like being out on the water and, and, you know, driving to my boat with the top down, you know. And when you guys— when you two come to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, we're coming out on a boat. And guess what I'm doing right now, sirs? As soon as we get done, I'm gonna go sign off and buy a new boat.

Hey, really? Next on your visualization, is it a new boat?

Just bought a new boat, man.

That's so good, bro.

Yeah, dude, that's so amazing. It's bigger, it's open bow. I'll send you a picture, but it's like, man, you just got to keep upgrading, right? Like, but never forget where you come from and never forget why you started. Like, that's the most important thing is just I love reflecting and being like, God, Kiwi, like, I always tell her, like, when you were small, we were so poor. And she's like, Daddy, I don't remember that. I'm like, thank God, you know, I think I did something right with her. Like, she doesn't remember the struggle, but like, we can't forget it, you know?

Yeah, 100%.

Just keep— and just keep that in mind. Just remember where you came from and know that like you're still working and you're still successful, but just don't forget it. So it's like, yeah, so what's next for me? Well, I just got a boat, um, and I don't know, man. I think it's, uh, just about living and loving, baby, you know? Just continuing to refine myself and, and work on myself and work hard and reap those benefits. See, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I have a general outline, but I'm also not sure. I think I know that I'm just trying to create momentum to propel myself into the future, and I'm not sure where that is yet.

Cool, dude. It's because you got the boat, so you're like, yes, my life's complete.

Oh, dude. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's a wrap. That's it. It's done.

Alex, thank you so much, my friend. This has been one of my favorite podcasts, if not my favorite podcast, because of our relationship and because of you just being the coolest person in the world.

I appreciate that, man.

Yeah, this much love for, which is you, brother. So thank you, man. I really enjoyed the combo.

Oh dude, me too. I love whenever we— just for the listeners, it's like whenever we get together to try to do a business meeting, we spend the first 45 minutes just talking about life, 55 minutes talking, the last 5 minutes we're like, oh shit, we got actually— what were we supposed to do? So I hope this had some direction. It helps people today, but I respect and love both of you guys very much and love working with you.

Thanks, brother. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.