This Recruiter Only Works Exclusive Roles, Here’s How She Does It…

Hello, I'm Sam Miller, and you're listening to Top Billers Toolkit. On this podcast, me and my twin brother Ben are committed to interviewing top billers from all around the globe. Join us on this journey as we explore the stories of these remarkable achievers and unlock the keys to their success. Our guest today is an extremely skilled and forward-thinking recruiter, Laura Davies. For two decades, she's braved the highs and the lows of the job market. Some people call her the job ad queen because of her innovative approach to crafting compelling job ads that captivate her candidates and leave her competition in the dust. On today's episode, we'll delve into what it's really like running your own recruitment company. We'll explore how assembling a small but formidable team can revolutionise your workday, and we'll be covering the crucial skills that every modern recruiter must master to ascend to top-biller status. So grab a coffee or a glass of wine, depending when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Hello, Laura Davies. Yes, thank you for joining us. How are you?

I'm good, thank you. And how are you guys?

We're very good, we're very good. Thank you for being the official second guest on our podcast. We're really excited to have you here. Yeah, first.

Put Chris to one side. Laura's really number one.

Yeah, joking, Chris. Still love you.

Yeah, we love you, Chris.

Um, cool. So, um, we usually start— I say usually, this is only our second podcast— but we, we start off the podcast with this question, Laura. What do you consider to be your most valuable tool in your toolkit, whether it be a piece of software, a mindset, or a strategy? What would you— what would that be?

I cheat and say something a little bit different. So my girls are my secret weapon.

They're the key.

The way that we work together and how everything's built over the last 18 months, because I've only had a team member for 18 months. So they're my top secret weapon. My second— I have three. So my second secret weapon is the Mitch Sullivan copy course that I did, because my adverts are my real secret weapon, I think. And my third is my Remarkable, which I now wouldn't be without, because it— yeah, no paper, it's fantastic.

That is brilliant.

So can we deconstruct them, Laura? Because that's, that's That's brilliant. So the first one is your team, you said?

Yeah. So, yeah, sorry, Em's been with me now for nearly 18 months, and she didn't even really understand recruitment. And I've worked with her, supported her, and guided her. And I was quite poorly, I think, as you both know, last year, and I didn't know the word delegation. I think that's one of the things I did with you guys to sort of learn how to do a bit of that. And Yeah, it's having that team around me because now I've got Ellie as well. So the missing ingredient was Ellie. Em and I are great recruiters. We're not great at admin. We're not great at all the systems parts behind and databases and spreadsheets. And Ellie is phenomenal at all of that stuff. So yeah, my girls, I wouldn't— I absolutely wouldn't be without them now.

That's really interesting. I—

we—

because so me and Sam, as you know, we work with a lot of small recruitment companies, and by far one of the biggest problems is delegation. That is by far one of the biggest things.

And it's amazing that you've kind of experienced both ends of the spectrum.

What was the point in your business where you thought, okay, enough is enough, I have to bite the bullet and hire someone? Was there something that happened, or was that always in the plan? Maybe you could talk us through that.

Um, when I hired Anne, my first recruit, um, I was working till midnight. I had too much going around my head. I didn't have a life other than my business. So we just come out of COVID and I knew that if I wanted to really give my clients the support that I knew I could and work on higher level roles, which again you guys supported me with, I needed to, you know, you can't do everything yourself. You absolutely can't. So yeah, that was my big point. And the actual delegation, because I didn't really delegate when she first started, I wouldn't even let her talk to clients. She was only allowed to talk to candidates because I am a control freak and I know I am, but I have grown and I have evolved. But when I was poorly and I was going down to theatre and I got a phone in my hand and I was WhatsApping a client, that was the push. And she's brilliant. She's done really well. Really, really well.

Awesome.

And, and because that must have been quite stressful, Laura, like working till midnight. I mean, I've definitely been there as well, Ben has. Um, how has that changed your kind of relationship with your business and maybe your day-to-day now that you've kind of delegated stuff? What's— how, how's that changed stuff?

Um, well, it sort of coincided with not long after I got an actual office, so not having my business in my house, that has completely helped. Recently I've started having one day a week off because I feel I can trust them, which I didn't think was possible. And I am able to concentrate, you know, not fully because obviously I still dip in and, you know, I'm like, I don't let go. So I'm still very involved in my business, you know, my generalist stuff. But it means I can concentrate on my executive hires and I can put that energy into that and have proper conversations with people, which is going to result in reaching out to better candidates. And having, having more conversations with clients, new clients as well.

It's really interesting. I think one of the biggest fears for me, like, I think me and Sam have come to the realization that we're going to have to hire at some point if we want to grow, because we can't be the only people doing everything. We've got a couple of VAs, but, but then the fear around my mind, which I think a lot of other recruiters have, is, you know, how do you find that one person? How do you know that? Because even though you're a recruiter and a very good recruiter, I think hiring for your own business is a little bit different. It's more emotional, right?

I'm crap at hiring for my own business until now, but I seem to be— these two are genius, touch lots of wood. But I've had the most horrific experience with hiring for myself because I'm not very good at it in terms of hiring for myself because I, I think I see things in people and think, oh, I like you and I want you to work with me, but I don't think of anything else prior to But this time I think I looked at it very differently and I looked at the skill set and I looked at the practicalities and, and I also looked at what's important for me. And Marshall Harmony is the children's middle names. So I thought, do you know what? I want to give somebody else the chance to be with their children, which is why it worked with them. Because what happens is I interviewed her for something else. The client wouldn't consider part-time. And I thought, you know what? You've got something about you. She was quite tenacious. She was very easy to talk to. And she sort of had that vibe about her that I thought, do you know what, this might work. So I just said, have you ever considered recruitment? And she hadn't. We met in a coffee shop, we were there for 2 hours, um, I made her present to me what she would go about doing in terms of the, the candidate journey, what sort of conversation she thinks she'd have, that sort of thing, um, and it just felt right. That, that's all I can say. It was, it was a lot more thorough process. It wasn't just a very quick chat, that's it. And there were a lot of conversations that went on at home. I reached out to other recruiters because I'm part of a little network of other solo recruiters, and I chatted to them. And, you know, I couldn't care less if Em works up a tree. She sits in IKEA with her girls sometimes eating meatballs and talking to candidates. Couldn't care less. If she gets the work done, it doesn't matter to me. Do you know what I mean? So I know she values that because her girls are so little, so she gets the time to spend with them. And she'll give me extra. You know, she, she's the one that's blooming well working late at night when she knows she shouldn't be. But it's because she's making up what she hasn't done in the day. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, 100%, it works for us. And, you know, the three of us adore each other. We get on so well. We're going on a spa day next week. And, you know, you've seen the pictures of us and it's real. We, we do. We get on so well. As a team.

Now on to your second point, um, Laura, which is Mitch Sullivan's course. Now me and Ben have heard of Mitch Sullivan, been following him for a while. He's a legend. On to the point of copywriting, why do you think copywriting is so important as a recruiter? Why is it such a valuable skill to have, do you think?

Um, because you've got to be able to talk to your audience. If, if you literally just go, I am excited to be representing this company, and then write a load of bullet points and you're not talking to the person, they're not interested, they're bored. So you've got to be able to engage with them, you've got to be able to make them picture themselves in that job. You know, I always say to the girls, when I'm writing an advert, I think I'm sat in a pub next to somebody and I'm telling them why they should be interested in what I've got to say and why it's better or different to what they're doing at the moment.

I love that.

Really, I really love that. And, and, um, on to the Remarkable now. Can you explain what Remarkable is? Because a lot of people have never even heard of it, Laura. That's so cool, I love it. Paul's got one as well. I don't know if you, uh, Paul— I think because of you he bought it.

I told him to get one.

Oh, I think you did.

Um, yeah, so I am a pen and paper girl. I'm very traditional, I'm very old-fashioned, and I have paper everywhere and notes everywhere. And I used to be in my house finding the back of an envelope to write a job on. Horrendous. Everything was in my head. I am Denard, and my husband tried to get me to use an iPad and said it's the same. It's not the same. I don't get distracted by my reMarkable. So I get very distracted. I'm typical anybody, you know, apps, things pinging and getting in your way. With the reMarkable, it literally does what I need it to do. I can take it to a meeting, can write meeting notes, and I can send it straight to Ellie. Ellie can download it straight into the CRM system. I don't have to think about it. I can write candidate notes. Again, she can ping it straight into our database. It's not so brilliant at converting my handwriting, not everyone else's, my handwriting to text, but she can read my writing and I can read my writing sometimes. But it's, Yeah, everything's there. I can click on a button and I can search for a candidate and find their notes. So I'm not going, okay, which, which book, which book's it in?

I've been there so many times. Yeah, for anyone that, for anyone that doesn't know what— I'm not sure if we said what Remarkable actually is. It's like a digital, digital pad that you can write on, and it has a feeling of paper as well, doesn't it? Um, Laura? Yeah, so it's like has a feeling of paper.

Yeah, I can't read ebooks. I need a book, a proper book. I still can't do that. Yeah, but this is different because it's all— I'm totally converted. It was— I can't remember who it was. It was a client who had one, and I went, oh my God, I've been looking at those. And he said, it will change your life. And I went, oh, whatever. And then somebody else had one. Genuinely, and I'm not on any commission with Remarkable, they are brilliant and they hold their charge. I only have to charge it like once every 3 weeks.

That's brilliant. That's a great bit of kit that recruit— a lot of recruiters I think will find very, very useful.

Yeah, but don't give everyone all my tips because—

okay, cool. So the next question, um, I have for you, Laura, is you're obviously very experienced, you're very good at what you do. You've, you've, um, I'm sure you, you've kind of dissected what has made a good performer or a top performer in recruitment or a top biller. Um, what are some of the things in your, your opinion that distinguishes the top billers, the top performers from the rest of the pack? Do you think, are there any key things that you think they possess or they have learned over the years that separate them from the rest?

Yeah, I was thinking about this. So speed, speed on how you react to things, um, I would say is a huge, a huge point. Um, Honesty, but being candid with clients, not being too corporate. So getting that again, getting their buy-in. And when you're having the right conversations at the beginning, you're getting the right information, you're not looking like a fool having to go back and forth all the time. And do what you say you're going to do. And if you're not, go back to them and update them. That's it. Those are the three main things that I would— and if you don't get anything, tell them. I mean, I go into meetings and I go, you know, yeah, I'm blonde, talk to me like I'm stupid because I don't understand engineering, because I don't, you know. But actually, for me to come across to a candidate knowledgeably, all they need to do is break it down into layman's terms for me. It doesn't matter, do you know what I mean? So it's—

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It's having those kind of conversations because she— you know, a lot of recruiters, and it's how they're trained, she sent me a job spec and they'll look at the job spec and they'll pull it apart, and then they'll just send it to a candidate, and they might have a little conversation with the client. They probably won't go on site. I mean, obviously going on site's great, but video calls, you know, to be honest, both work. I like to be able to touch it, feel it, smell it, and be in the place and be able to sell that to a candidate. But yeah, it's not rocket science. People make it too complicated. That's just my opinion. Yeah.

When you say speed, Laura, what do you mean? And I'm sure there's a few things that you mean by speed, but what comes to mind when you say speed? What's really important?

Actioning it straight away. So get the advert done. So you've had the conversation, you've got the job, get the advert done, and then start to map the market and do it timely. Do it that day, do it within 24 hours, set a timescale, tell the client you can have 3 candidates in front of them within 3 days or something like, you know what I mean? If you, if you don't work at a pace that they think they think that their problem is being dealt with because that's what it is. You know, I always say to people when I used to train recruiters, sounds really weird, but I used to say a job is like a hot potato and that, that client's thrown that to you. They don't want that problem anymore. It's gone. They've thrown it to you. So you've got to now deal with it. You've got that hot potato in your hand and until you filled it, it's hurting your hands. Do you know, that's how— that's—

I love that.

Yeah, but it's very old school, very traditional. And the other thing is exclusivity. So, you know, know your worth. I won't do retainers. I don't like the idea of them. I wouldn't sleep because I haven't filled something. I'm like, you've taken money from me. That's just my mentality. That's, you know, neither right nor wrong. But if you gain that exclusivity, so you, you know, again, you're putting it in a timely way. I will fill this job by this time for you, or you can do what the hell you like. Do you know what I mean? So those, Yeah, those are the key things.

Really interesting, because we, me and Sam, work with a bunch of, you know, lots of great recruiters, both on the contingent side and the retained side. I, I love, um, and we have had a lot of people with the mentality of, you know, not too comfortable retained but exclusive. Even to get exclusive, from what me and Sam observe, it takes a certain level of confidence and skill and negotiating power. How did that happen for you? Were you always on exclusive, or again, was it just a buildup of confidence over time?

Maybe you could tell us a little bit A bit about that.

I would say, so I'll walk away. They don't want to be exclusive, I'll walk away. It's fine. These are the people that do. And it's actually having that self-belief and knowing what you can do for the client and getting their buy-in. And if you've got that credibility, um, there's no reason they won't agree exclusivity. Because why would they want 5 people fishing in the same pond, their name going out there, their name being rubbished, and people thinking they're desperate? Because actually there's all these people and then you've got the bunfight of who spoke to who first. And, and I sell all of that and I talk about all of that to new clients, but I don't give them a choice. I just say, this is what's going to happen, okay? Thank you very much, Mr. Client, for the job. We only work exclusively. Uh, we only work exclusively. And here's, here's my fees. This is how I work. Um, done. That's it.

Yeah, it's really interesting, uh, Laura, um, that you, that you mention all the pains they will go through if they don't go exclusive. And I think that's where a lot of, um, A lot of— oops, sorry, call at the wrong time. That's where a lot of recruiters struggle, is actually displaying that pain on a phone call and being able to convey it properly to the client. How did you learn how to do that? Again, was that just trial and error?

Just experience. Just, I used to get really frustrated when there was the bun fight and I'm 'Hang on, I've spoke to that person, they haven't spoke to them.' I mean, there are so many, and there's so many unscrupulous recruiters out there that literally go on a job board, pull a person off, and then before you know it, it's with the client. So if you get them to understand that that's what happened, that's what happens, you can get the buy-in that way. Because it does happen, and it still happens when you work exclusively, because people lie and say they've got jobs on. Do you know what I mean? People, yeah, people will send CVs cold and it drives me completely mad. But they've not got a leg to stand on because they haven't agreed anything. They've not agreed to their terms of business. And if you get that commitment right at the beginning and then it is a case of, like I said at the beginning, just do what you say you're going to do. You know, we always joke that we do what we say we're going to do on the tin. That's it. Again, it's really— there's no airs and graces. You guys know what I'm like. I say exactly what I think. Probably put my foot in the mouth sometimes, but people like that because I'm real. You know, I'm not some corporate, you know, promises the world and underdelivers. It's— and the girls are exactly the same.

It's really interesting on that note of successful job ads, because you are the job ad queen, as we like to say, Laura. How important do you think the— because what a lot of what I see from other people is that they get on the phone with the client, the client just says, this is what we're looking for. It's a 10-minute conversation. They kind of throw the recruiter out and they go off hunting. When actually they should be doing a bit more due diligence in terms of asking questions. Like, how important has that been for your process of creating an effective job ad? Can you just talk us through that process?

Well, you get tidbits, you get the pain points, you get to know what the environment's like, you— why is it great to work there, what did the staff think, um, you know, what was it like during COVID what was it like pre-COVID, what, what You know, what's your growth plans? What's the difference between you and the company next door? You know, we have real normal conversations, the sorts of questions. What I do is I think about what candidates will ask me, what candidates want to know, and I preempt it. And I always like to get a bit of a hook at the beginning, just something a bit different. It can be really random, and it just makes people click on it because they think, oh, what's that all about? 'That's an advert for a PA,' or, 'That's an advert for an ops director. What's that all about?' Do you know what I mean? And they'll click on it, and then they'll then be spoken to personally. If, you know, I use a lot of 'you,' I use a lot of language which is making them think, 'Yeah, yeah, that's me, that's me,' and it makes them pick up the phone. And that's what people tell us, that actually the reason that they apply for our jobs are our job adverts, and maybe they weren't even looking, they just had a bad day, or they just stumbled across it. And that's why a lot of our candidates aren't even on the open market, they just stumble across something we've put out there.

It's awesome.

For any recruiters listening, just to add context, um, when Laura says the hook, I'm sure a lot of people know this but some don't, the headline can be the most important thing that either will determine people will read it and get bored, or read it and want to read the rest of the job ad. And Laura has perfected the hook, so go and check out some of her ads if you, if you get a chance, just to see how she's doing it.

But I still, although I do it like that, I still follow what the job boards tell me to do because I know that they know their stuff. So I make sure that I repeat the job title. So, you know, Mitch would, wouldn't tell you to do that. He would tell you to just talk to the person. Not like they're stupid, but you know, like they're sat next to you and you're having a conversation with them. But he wouldn't tell you to repeat the advert, the title. But we found it doesn't— the algorithm doesn't like it if you don't. So that's not just the world of Google, that's CV Library, ReedTooth, Jobs Indeed, LinkedIn. It doesn't like it. It will only move your advert up into the rankings if it mentions, you know, that advert, that thing that person searched for. I think it's 5, minimum of 5, but ideally 7 times.

Fascinating. Cool, that is a lot of juicy data or a lot of juicy things for people to come away with. And we can't, we can't go away from this podcast without speaking about the challenge of running your own business, Laura, especially recruitment, you know, The amount of posts, amount of people I've spoken to saying how many challenges they run into specifically in recruitment, because recruitment is like no other industry in the sense that the thing you sell has emotions and can decide whether or not it wants to say yes or not.

Yeah, in simple terms, yeah, it is because it can, you know, it's not a pen. Yeah, it's not me saying, here you go, here's a pen, go and buy it, pay me, that's it. It's a person with emotions, with feelings, with with things that can happen, you know. Yeah, anything could happen to anyone at any day that I have absolutely no control over. Um, and that's tough, and that was a tough journey for the girls, very tough journey. Um, you know, of course we get people that cancel interviews because they've been offered another job, or, you know, something's happened in their family, or the children are, you know, lots of different things happen to people. Um, because people have lives, you know, even people who are due to start jobs um, things change, things evolve. You don't know what's going on. You can't know completely what's going on in someone's life. We do get people to open up, so we don't interview people. We talk to people, we get to know people, um, and I think that does help because people then do open up to us earlier, if that makes sense. Um, but yeah, oh my God, recruitment is a roller coaster. Absolutely. You can be right up in the sky, everything's amazing, offers, you know, coming in and new clients. And then suddenly everything can just go boom and it's all gone and you've got to start again. And obviously now it's not just me, I've got to pick the girls up. So it's tough and it's emotionally draining because everybody thinks of recruiters— I think, I actually think people think recruiters are like shrinks. I really do, because especially during COVID because obviously it affected a lot of the higher-paid directors. And I felt like people's, you know, personal psychiatrist, you know, I genuinely did. You know, the world was ending. You know, they go from being right up here earning, you know, £150,000 to £200,000 a year to nothing and not knowing what to do. They've never been on the job market before. So as a recruiter, people think it's easy do it for a week and it's, it's horrible sometimes, but I love it because I thrive on— I kind of, I still thrive on the buzz of just making a placement. And I love talking to new customers and getting their buy-in and getting all— I get really excited. I'm like a kid. I'm pathetic. And I think I know the perfect person. And the girls have got like that as well. It might be someone I've spoken to a year ago or 6 months ago and it works. And there's nothing— there's just, you know, there's nothing— it's like a drug. It is like a drug. There's nothing like it, of that buzz of knowing how happy someone is about getting a new job. Um, we get a goodie bag. You can see the cups.

I love your goodie bags, they're so cool.

Yeah, I mean, the client gets one and the candidate gets one, and it's really— it's really nice. Um, but business is hard, especially like on your own. Um, doing all the stuff that you kind of— I don't know, you never even knew that was involved in business, like all the finance stuff and legal stuff. And it's, it's an absolute minefield.

Um, yeah. Is there any— because you, you said yourself, Laura, that you've probably been through ups and downs with recruitment. And, and one, one of the things Chris Burke said, which I totally agree with, is that, you know, the things that separates the top billers and the top performers from the, the rest of the pack is the fact that they're willing to pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and start again. But what are, what what are some of the strategies or tactics or things that you do to be able to continue, you know, instead of giving up? What— how do you just keep on going when you go against, you know, walls of shit, as they say, or just so much crap?

Scream a lot. Um, I sing, as you both know, and that, that kind of releases, you know, the happiness and, and sort of connects with my breathing. You know, a lot of people you like things like Pilates and stuff like that and going to the gym. For me, singing, if I have had a rubbishy afternoon, like morning, and I go and spend an hour singing, I'm happy again. I'm fine. And I just think, hang on, I've got to move on. You know, my business pays for the lifestyle we've got. I've got two children who need me to earn good money and have a decent business. And that is my motivator. You know, my kids, my husband, and our lives. That is— and the girls' children now, because it's not just about my kids, is it, anymore? It's, it's theirs. Um, yeah, that's, that's why. Because I just, you know, if I didn't pick myself up— if I have, I don't know, a big placement dropout, um, and I spend hours moping, well, then that's those hours I'm not working.

Yeah, you, you mentioned a few different things there, Laura, but you mentioned something that really hit home for me is that you have an outlet to kind of direct your stress, which is singing, and then release it. And jiu-jitsu is the same for me. Like, whenever I've had a bad day, doesn't matter what mood I'm in, I can go into a jiu-jitsu session and I literally feel like a refreshed human being. And it's like a drug. Um, and so I just want to— for anyone listening, I want to just hammer down on the importance of having an outlet for your stress. Especially in a stressful world like recruitment. You need to have an outlet to release all your stress, whether that be going to the gym, singing, playing the guitar, whatever it is. Find something that you can de-stress in, and it will make your journey a lot easier as well.

You need, you know, even if it's picking up a book and reading, if that's the thing, you just need to be able to not live, breathe, and sleep recruitment. It's not healthy, not healthy at all. You need something else to do.

That's interesting. It's really interesting. And is there any particular moment that was the most challenging in your business that you can think of, Laura? And how did you overcome it?

Yeah, when I reached out to Jane and I thought my whole business was crumbling and emotionally I wasn't in a great place and I'm not ashamed to say it. I just wasn't, I wasn't in the right place. I wasn't, but I wasn't presenting in the right way. You know, I've learned lots of mindset strategies. I've learned lots of not being hard on myself. I was just piling myself too high. And if I looked at a chart of, I mean, like a triangle of things in my life, I'd put myself at the bottom and I wouldn't, I wouldn't let people in. I was wearing a mask. That's what I would say. You know, I've lifted this mask now. I'm a lot, a lot more open about things. I'm, you know, still protective, obviously, of the business, but Yeah, I think I show up in a different way.

Interesting.

And you said that Laura Jay—

me and Sam know of Laura Jay, and she sounds and just appears like an amazing human being. Was she the trigger that really helped you to recover, do you think, or was it a number of things?

Um, she makes you hold up like an uncomfortable mirror. So I did it myself. She didn't do anything. She just is there. And teaches you ways to cope with things. And she's there as support. She's there on WhatsApp. And it was interesting because that was the sort of time I was working with you guys as well. And that really helped me because that helped me to show up differently on LinkedIn, which I think has really changed my business because I don't really sell other than LinkedIn anymore, you know, and I want to get back to doing a little bit. Because now I've got the girls. But yeah, Laura Jane pulled things apart for me in a good way. But with her, I was just— I wasn't in a great place personally, professionally. Read her website, read it and went, oh my God, that's me. I had to buy her book, bought it from Amazon, and then paid for her course without even talking to her.

Amazing. Which is funny because again, it's down to copywriting, right? She said something or did something, maybe took it to me. Yeah, yeah, it triggered and really resonated with you. And, and I think it's amazing as well, Laura, that you, you— because a lot of people wouldn't do this, and I still think especially in the UK there is a tendency to try and do everything yourself and not reach out for help. And I think especially on the mindset side, I think it's, it's perhaps becoming more common to invest in coaches for LinkedIn or, you know, marketing strategies, but for mindset it's almost like a taboo. And me and Sam have invested in mindset coaches and it's been transformational, the ones that me and Sam have invested in. So yeah, I think that's an amazing, just I guess, tip for other people. You know, if you're struggling with mindset, don't do it on your own, you know, invest.

No, no, no, don't do it on your own. I tried to do it for too long. And she's got a group called Believe as well, which is like a group of women and we just go on to Zoom calls and chat and do, you know, sort of sounds a bit woo-woo, but like healing and NLP and stuff like that. It's, you know, it's all that kind of stuff. And again, she's available on WhatsApp and things. So yeah, I highly recommend doing something like that because as a solo entrepreneur, it's hard because it all falls on you. When you work for a business, you've got someone doing this, someone doing this, someone above you, and you know, you're safe. But actually, if I do something wrong, my whole business could fall like a house of cards. You know, it won't, but do you know what I mean?

So yeah, it's really interesting. Really interesting. Um, what motivates you now? You've already touched upon it, uh, Laura, but you are such a hard worker. You know, that's one thing that me and Ben realized when we work together, that you are relentless with your work ethic and you are a million miles an hour in a good way. You're just always on it. What, what drives you on a day-to-day basis? How are you able to kind of sit down and just focus and, and perform at such a high level consistently?

Family, really. Yeah. Yeah. Giving the kids the best life they can possibly have.

Beautiful.

And having a successful business, knowing that, you know, I'm providing a good service to my clients and yeah, get them the great people. That's simple really. It's— I'm not motivated by, I don't know, shoes and bags and all that sort of stuff like some people are, and fancy, you know. Yes, I, you know, like we're going on a nice posh spa day, but you know, we like to have nice holidays. Um, both kids will be at private school come, um, come September, and hopefully go to university, you know. It's not cheap. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Cool. So they're your biggest motivator every day, you're thinking of your family?

Yeah, 100%. That's cool.

Yeah, that's really beautiful.

When we work together, Laura, I remember you saying— because I feel like you've always had this work ethic, so I'm guessing now at this point in life, your family's probably the biggest driver. And I'm guessing as you— as you just— as you— as people live in this world, those drivers change and they adapt depending on who you are and how things have changed. What was the driver back for you? Because I know you were a top biller as well when you were working in the corporate world.

Oh, I just wanted to be best. I just loved— I loved the pat on the shoulder and the big events and the money. And yeah, I just— before I had kids, I mean, I never thought I'd have kids at the age I did because I thought I was too selfish. I thought I was too You know, I just wanted to be best at what I did. But yeah, that was— it was totally different. I mean, I felt, as you know, I fell into recruitment. I went to drama school, but actually I was able to use that as a kind of an outlet to— outlet to, um, especially while performing, aren't you? When you, when you're speaking to, to clients and, and then you're selling that to a candidate, and it's that energy. And I've always been told that people buy into me because of how I come across and I make people feel at ease, which is lovely, which, you know, which is great. But I'm very good at reading body language and reading tone of voice. Even when someone's on the phone to me, I can tell. But I think that's my training because you get to understand characters and like people are like onions. There's not just what's there, there's everything underneath. I'm going too deep now.

No, I completely agree.

We haven't actually said this to the audience, but Laura is a trained actress and she has a lot of experience in the acting world. I think that's part of what makes you such a fantastic saleswoman and just general recruiter as well, Laura, because it has to— for me, I think it has to have— yeah, I think you said it yourself, right? The acting and your ability to kind of adapt so quickly to different personalities really helped you.

Yeah, it definitely helps.

Yeah, it's amazing. Very, very cool. So, so go ahead.

Um, no, just interested to talk about, uh, day plans and pipelines. Um, Laura, so let's start with pipelines maybe. What's the most effective way for you to build your pipeline as a recruiter, to give advice for other recruiters who maybe want to start building their pipeline in a more effective way? What's your kind of go-to places?

Chat— just chatting and keeping in contact with existing clients so that you know what that's going to look like, and then You know what the initial pipeline looks like. If you need to fill it up, just start having conversations. Just reach out and look at who's recruiting and what are the big companies come to the area, and talking to candidates and finding out what's going on. It's, it's just constantly having conversations with people and getting information, um, not bleeding people for information because I don't, I don't like that. I don't like, you know, when people, please tell me who you've gone for an interview for, I won't tell anyone, I don't, I only want to know. It's all rubbish, isn't it? But it It's the way that you build the relationship with people because they'll just tell you stuff anyway. They'll just open up to you, and that's the best way to build your pipeline.

I think this is really interesting as well because I know you have different ways that you kind of get new business, Laura, but I think one of the things that you've put yourself in a very good position with is writing good adverts because companies are obviously advertising their work, you know, online every single day. So you can see, you know, obviously you can see people who are hiring, and you can actually, you know, see straight away if they're writing a good advert.

Oh, you're going to, you're going to say about that marketing one when I wrote him an ad.

I wasn't going to talk about that in particular, but that was, that was incredible. But thank you for mentioning that. That was, well, that was your advert, but it was when we were working together. But I just think it's, it's very clever, that clever, simplistic, and, you know, it's part of your skill of writing good copy that you've managed to leverage, um, that aspect and also get your foot through the door So when you're getting new business, how many of them are from live job boards compared to maybe other means? If you don't mind me asking, Laura, is there like a correlation or like a number you could put it down to? Or—

I don't know. I mean, I reach out to people and if I see they're advertising something, I'll tell them. Or if I see someone else advertising something and I'll say, you know, look, I can see you've got this with 4 different agencies. It's not going to— it's not going to happen. It's just the standard copy and paste. You know, this is what I'd like to do for you. And, you know, this is how I'll go about doing it. And usually they'll have a conversation because it's different. Um, so a lot of it, it's companies I know, companies I'm trying to get into, companies I'm trying to talk to. But a lot of my business is referrals because I've got a very, very good reputation, um, and existing clients. You know, I think now the girls are much more comfortable with, comfortable with resourcing. I'm going to be able to you know, actually pick up the phone and talk to people more because I just haven't done it. I know Chris said the same to me. I have— I haven't. It's not something I've needed to do because I've always had a pipeline. You know, we sort of have on average about 20 jobs on at any one time that we're working on that sort of bubbling away. And I haven't needed to go and hunt for stuff because I've always had a client saying, well, actually, next week I'm going to talk to you about this. And this is happening and all such and such is leaving. And I tend to know what's going to happen before it happens because of the kind of relationship I've got with my clients. I'm that person they'll call on their way home to rant to about what's happened on their day. I'm that person they'll WhatsApp. So I tend to be probably about 2 or 3 steps ahead of the rest of the business. I tend to know stuff with the managing director of the business before it goes out publicly, if that makes sense. So again, that's hard because it's difficult to know who you can have what conversation with, and it's their problems that they're putting on my shoulders, which is fine because I'm, you know, I just go, I'll deal with it and I'll empathize and I'll work with them. Um, but I think a lot of our business comes from that and pre-planning and things like that.

So yeah, it's really interesting, Laura, what, what I got from that was that part of your success is you've built really deep relationships with your clients to the point where they can just call you up whenever they want if they're having a bad day and speak to you. Um, and I, I think that's very rare for people to be able to gain that kind of trust from other people, especially with so many clients. How do you do that? I know that's a very broad question, but for someone wanting to gain that level of relationships with their clients so then they can be 3 steps ahead and form those deeper relationships? How do people do that?

I, you know, I don't just chat about work. I just chat with them genuinely. I get to know them as people. There's always this boundary. Of course, there has to be a boundary. But yeah, I just chat to them like they're humans rather than they're just the director of that company. And I'm just very open and honest with people. And I get, I get that buy-in, and they, they know they can trust me, they know they can come to me, and they know it'll go no further. You know, that's, that's, that is the big, that's the big thing. Because recruiters are really known for such and such recruiting, and I think I did a LinkedIn post about it, didn't I? And someone losing one of their top people and the competitor then finding out, just that sort of thing. That's the sort of stuff that happens in recruitment all the time. Because recruiters are known for being very gossipy, and I'm not. I'll listen to what people say, I laugh at them sometimes because they tell me stuff and I'm like, I don't need to know this. You know, they just sometimes they just go there, especially when I deal with people in the same industry and things like that. Sometimes it can be a bit awkward, but yeah, it's, yeah, it's a good place to be because they know they can turn to me and they know if they've got an issue. Again, it's going back to that hot potato, isn't it? They've got that issue. They don't want to deal with it, pass it to me. It's almost like they see me as I'm their HR.

That's, yeah, really interesting. And I'm really sorry, Ben, because I think you mastered— I think you're definitely oversimplifying it, I think, Laura, in terms of your skill set and how good you are at building rapport with clients. I think that's— you mastered the art. Of building, yeah, building rapport and asking fantastic questions and just getting them on side. And I, I know there's a formula to it, but we're not going to be able to get through it today, unfortunately. But, um, yeah, it's very cool. Sorry, Sam.

No, I'm just really curious, curious to know, Laura, if you were to shut down your— shut down Martial Harmony right now and start a new business, um, you know, all your referrals are gone, all your network's gone, how would you build a pipeline from scratch? What would be your go-to strategy to kind of start building that pipeline from scratch, do you think?

LinkedIn.

Can you talk us through a process just for any recruiter starting off or looking to build their pipeline? What would— what process would you take so then they can kind of copy you?

I'd be adding MDs, I'd be adding ops directors, I'd be looking at whatever I want to look at, I'd be looking at who's recruiting, and I would just be constantly adding people and constantly posting quality stuff on LinkedIn that makes people engage, um, sending messages um, you know, if they're looking at my profile. Um, LinkedIn would be my go-to. Um, back in the day, it would have been Kelly Trades and Yellow Pages. And that's what I did. I started with a zero desk on a temp desk, um, and I became the top performer within 2 years of being on temp desk. So it was— yeah, I've never done recruitment at all. My dad was a market trader. I was brought up on the markets, you know. I, well, I don't know, I did. I just took to it. But I think it was the sorts of conversations I was having with people. I think it's always been that. I think it— I'm not pushy, can be if I want to be, um, and I'm, I'm quite direct with people, but I'm very honest with people. And I think that's— people like that, don't they?

100%. And do you think that was one of the things that contributed to you becoming a top performer back then as well, Laura, the honesty. Was there anything else, do you think?

Um, training that I had. So I was surrounded by some brilliant people when I first started, and I was fed what to do. Um, and if I had a bad day or down day, I always remember my boss making me stand up when we'd had somebody that was backdoored into a company. So they'd gone for an interview and they employed them, didn't tell us. And she was like, that's your money, that's— this is what you're going to earn from it. Um, and I was too scared because there's only 21, 22, and she made me stand up and make the call, and I did. And it's just little things like that, that I was pushed, I was driven. My boss was like my second mum, you know, she— but she did, she babied me, she looked after me. But I was made to make 10 calls by 10 o'clock every single morning, speculative calls. And on temps, we'd have that added pressure of having somebody do a typing test in the, you know, in, in the computer— with the computers. They would like upskilling, or they were sat there seated and booted, ready to go out, be on the temp desk. And I think because I grew up with that in terms of my sales training, that's what I could go back to, do you know what I mean? If I wanted to go, right, LinkedIn doesn't exist anymore, I'd just go and grab a Yellow Pages, wouldn't bother me because I've done it before.

Yeah, that's cool. So I think we're coming to the end, Laura. I always like to ask this question and it kind of feeds on nicely to what you just said then. You, you obviously are, um, you've mastered the art of cold calling. You can jump on tomorrow and probably make it work. Um, what's your opinion of cold calling at the moment for most recruiters? Like, would you recommend it? Is it a yes? Is it a no? And why?

Really? Because we don't need to do it anymore, and people don't like it. People get annoyed by it, um, because they're busy, you know, they don't because of the recruiters cold calling my clients, you know what I mean?

They—

why, why would they talk to them? They don't need to talk to them. And there's always that opportunity, of course there is, because if there's somebody and they think, oh yes, I like that person and I want to work with them, um, right place, right time, it does work. I'm not saying it doesn't, but since COVID people aren't in the office anymore anyway. There's so, so many people working hybrid. There's other ways of reaching people that are a lot less intrusive. Than lying and saying you could be from the bank just to get through to the managing director, because that's what you're trained to do. And, you know, it's true though, isn't it? You find a way past that gatekeeper, or, you know, you make friends with that gatekeeper. You're taught so many different things. And actually, I still think gatekeepers are really important to learn information from business when you're first getting to know what a company is all about. Making friends with that gatekeeper, and they'll give you all that information, and they will. A good, you know, good receptionist will. Um, so there's— there is a place for it, but there's better ways now. I think things have changed.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love. Mm.