"Why I Use Whats App To Close Deals" (Advice from a £1,000,000 Biller)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Freddie Stacey. For the first 7 months of his career, Freddie didn't bill a single penny, but that just fueled his hunger. While everyone left the office, he stayed working well into the night, and he even came back to the office on weekends. Then something clicked, and Freddie became a million-pound biller not once, but 5 years in a row. Now he's running his own successful boutique firm On today's episode, we're going to be talking about why and how Freddie uses WhatsApp to close a large portion of his business. We're going to be talking about why Freddie surrounds himself with top performers and why this has been such a game changer to his career. And we're going to be taking a deep dive into Freddie's mindset and how his obsession with recruitment has driven his business. As usual, guys, grab a cuppa or glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. Let's get into it, shall we? Freddy, thank you so much for joining us today on Top Billers Toolkit. How are you, my friend?

Very good, thank you. How are you?

Yeah, really good.

Probably Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, it is.

I have, I have to tell this to people because I find this really interesting, that our call was initially, I think, more sales related. I think I pitched to you, we jumped on a sales call. For whatever reason, it wasn't right, but we decided to bring you on the podcast because the things you were saying were just really impressive. And I'm so glad that we've got you on because some of the things you told me were just quite unusual, quite unique, and I'm really looking forward to diving deeper into this in today's session.

Got an outcome out of a cold call.

Yes, absolutely.

Brilliant. Look at this.

Um, so why don't we start off with the first question, which is what we ask all our guests, which is what would you say is the number one tool in your toolkit um, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or piece of software?

Yeah, I'm gonna get— I'm gonna give you guys a different answer to the ones that you've probably heard before. I think, I think this is genuine, like, the biggest, the biggest toolkit I have are the people around me. Uh, I don't know if anyone said that before.

No, no, no, they haven't actually. No, people say mindset 90% of the time. They don't say people. But can you elaborate on that, Freddie? What, what do you mean by people?

I think it's threefold. I think it's threefold. So I think in order for you to get into a good mindset, you have to be surrounded by great people, right? That's— that is— I mean, you, you kind of just reverse— I try and reverse engineer everything that I do. So I wouldn't be in a great mindset if I didn't have, uh, a family that supported me, um, a fiancée that has to deal with me talking about recruitment 24/7. Uh, because it's now become my personality. Um, and I've got— I'll be honest with you, I've got an amazing team that works for me. They're crazy enough to, like, want to work for me, and a business partner that's so, so supportive. So I think people talk about a lot about, like, mindset, or, you know, they found this tool which finds candidates faster and better and you know, allows us to find the unicorn all the time. But I actually think it's the people that you surround yourself by. And it's kind of like what I want to, what I want to do, and I find I've been successful, is, is not necessarily if I'm the big biller. I want, I want to have million-pound billers around me. I don't, I don't necessarily want to be the guy that, that's, that's doing it. I don't know if that's a good answer or not, but I think that's, that's the biggest thing because I don't think there's any— there's not really any barriers to entry in this game. It's just, it's just one of these things, right? Um, and so, uh, that's what I think. That's what I'm— that's—

and, um, I'm really interested. I think that's a great response, and it actually really resonates with mine and Sam's journey as well because we, we try to look back at our career and see where the biggest shifts were, and it's always when we've invested and been around other business owners who are ahead of us, who are doing better than us, who are just hungry and really, really motivated. And whenever around people like that, it's so hard not to want to do better, which is really interesting. Is it hard to find someone that's more motivated than you though, Freddie? Because you sound really on it, you sound really motivated. Like, it must be difficult to find people who are at your level. Is that true, or Uh, I don't—

I, I— it depends, right? I, I try— I'm not going to be the one that sits here and says, you know, I'm the best recruiter that's in sliced bread and I can do this and I can do that. It's just, I think, to answer your— answer your question, when I, when I look to add people to our, to our business, everyone's motivated to do different things, right? Lots of people want to have designer handbags, designer cars, the watches, the suits, etc., etc. Some want to support their family, um, whatever, whatever. Some people actually— yeah, and I'm— I, I include myself in this journey. I got into recruitment because I thought I could help people, and then I obviously ended up day one at Hayes, and that was a lot. I was like, well, This is not what you sold me on the interview. But, um, yeah, I, I genuinely, I, I, I, I don't necessarily need— if honestly, if I, if I had a team of people that were like as intense as me, I don't think other people would want to work in my business. Uh, and that is a very, very fair comment from anyone that's either managed me, been part, worked in the same firm as me. Um, You know, I absolutely love what I do, um, and I think in order to have a great team, you've got to have different personalities that are able to, to bring different skill sets to the table. And, and ultimately, that's what we're building on, that's what we're on the journey towards. But, you know, I, I, I would love to, to be in a pitch— in a situation in 2 or 3 years down the line whereby it's just we have an all-star team of million-pound billers across across everywhere. Because I, from a personal perspective, I just think it'd be a really cool environment to come in and go, oh yeah, this, this guy here does, does, does a million, this lady here does 2 million. Like, that's like the utopia, right? And it doesn't— you can be recruiting like truck drivers or, uh, hedge fund managers or I, I, I, whatever, right? But, um, if you're good at it I want to be exposed to you. And I don't think that— I don't think that I'm the perfect recruiter yet. I— the one reason I like this job is because every day I come in, I learn something. Like, there's no— I, I couldn't work a 9-to-5 job whereby you get to switch off at the end. It's like, right, okay, you're done. I was like, I, I'd want to make it better so I could finish earlier, or I'd want to take on more stuff. So that's why I love recruitment. But I'm sure we can dive into that later.

Yeah, yeah. There's one question I want to get into before we get into, uh, business development and all those juicy, juicy things. I'm wondering, because you said people are your biggest toolkit, you know, the people you surround yourself with. Freddie, have you ever been in a position in your career where you haven't been surrounded by the right people? And if so, what impact did that have on you, your mental health, or your billings?

It's a good question. I think I've been fortunate enough to be around some really fabulous recruiters in my, in my time. I mean, you know, look, I, I, I worked for Hayes, and they're one of the biggest recruitment firms in the world. I worked for someone that started their own firm because they were, they were a top biller where they were. Everyone's got positive and negative traits, and I think, and you guys will know this, right, in recruitment they're very exposed because you're either having the best day of your career, or someone's, someone's done something you didn't want them to do and you become not a very nice person because of it. What I've tried to do, or what I try to do, is take all of the positive experiences that I've had so far in my career and also all of the, all of the times where I've gone, I remember when I was the associate there and my manager reacted this, went I didn't quite get every single lead off the phone, or I didn't quite get their salary down to the, the second £100, or I didn't say— didn't find out what their wife was thinking about it. And, you know, I, I do feel— I kind of feel embarrassed. So, so what, what I'm trying to do, or what I try to do, and it's, it's easy for me to sit here and say this to you, you probably have to ask people that work with me, it's right, okay, this is what works, this is what doesn't work. And the best thing about our job, or in recruitment, is that there's lots of different ways of getting the same outcome. Like, you can play one up top and hoof the ball long, you can play three up front, you could do two, and whatever, whatever it works as long as you fill the job. It doesn't really matter how you fill that job. Obviously there's no silver medals in recruitment, but, uh, you don't get— you don't get paid for second place. Yeah, it's so true, man. So, you know, that's, that's what I would think. And I think my whole career has been a journey that's kind of led me to where I am right now. And I'm trying to take all the good bits and all the bad bits. And then also, I think the biggest thing for us is continuous development. I don't, I don't, I don't believe that you should have— and I could, I could be wrong here, but fundamentally, I'll always see myself Regardless of how big Sheridan gets, I'd always see myself as a recruiter because that's the one thing I really like doing. Um, filing VAT returns, dealing with, dealing with onboarding of new employees, it's not my skill set. It's not my skills. It's getting into the weeds and closing deals. That's what I, that's what I, that's what I like doing.

So, cool, interesting.

Focus on what you're good at.

I totally agree. Great advice. Gotta get into question number 2, because not only have you built a million pounds, but you've done it 5 years in a row, which is pretty bloody impressive. And that to me shows that you've got a predictable system, um, Freddie, which is really interesting. I'm curious, how long did it take you to get to that level, to get to a million pounds, do you think?

Ages.

Ages.

It took me a bloody long time.

Like, we're talking 5 years, 3 years, 10 years, what's your feeling?

Well, I mean, my career was, was, was crazy. I mean, I remember coming onto a desk, um, in my first job at Hayes. I didn't bill for like 7 or 8 months.

Wow, that's so funny. The biggest billers all say the same thing. It's so interesting. Very common. Haven't closed a deal for like 6, 6 months, 8 months, 1 year. So sorry, I interrupted you. Go ahead.

So it's fine. I was, I was rubbish. I, I don't know how come I'm not allowed to swear. Um, my language is terrible, but you can swear.

You can't say—

I don't want to. My mom will watch this, and then my grandparents will as well. So there's no win, there's no win really. Uh, so IJAB was really terrible, and it wasn't, it wasn't like the fact that I wasn't trying hard enough. Um, it was just I couldn't get anything to stick, and there's nothing more frustrating than coming in. I used to come in at the weekends and I used to recruit with the cleaner, like, hooving around. I was like, I've got to make this work, I've got to make this happen. And it just took so, so long for it to click. But then when it clicked, I mean, I think there was a moment where I did my first deal and I think they— in recruitment, it's very much like London buses. I feel like you need ages trying to find one and then two or three. Come in, come in, uh, come and come in after that. And I think I was very— I think whenever you place someone, there's so much luck involved in it. It's, it's— you can put— you can try and control lots of the process, but ultimately you're not really in control of anything because you're not sat in the interviews, you're not talking to them post that. And I think I think the only way to be really successful in recruitment, in my opinion, is to have more jobs. And if you have your— I mean, my industry is completely unique and different, right? But I know that if I have 50 jobs, I'll probably fill about 10 of them. Maybe. But then, but then the, but then the, the value of the fee that I recruit for is, is much higher than what I used to do when I was— when I, when I started out. So To answer your question, it just takes time. Like, Rome wasn't built in a day. And what we do, what we try and do, is I say, right, well, we've got a framework of if you do this, this will work. But everyone's got their own nuance and their own style, and I don't want to stifle anyone because the way that someone recruits in one area is going to work and it's not going to work in another area. So what we're trying to do is start— try and say, right, oh, I like that. 'But I definitely don't like that.' Um, we sit down regularly, we have professional development where we just sit down and go, 'Right, this has really worked for me in terms of business development. Uh, this hasn't worked for me,' or 'This has worked for me.' So I think it's, I think it's about sharing what, what, what really works and then trying to, trying to, trying to make it happen, rather than saying you have to do this this way. Because it ultimately, it boils down to here's a computer, here's a phone, 'Can you go and make a million pounds?' Interesting.

Yeah, understood.

Oh, maybe. Maybe.

Were there any— I can think of a few points in mine and Ben's business where, as you said, Freddie, things started to click. You know, there was something that clicked at the beginning of your career and deals started happening. That's happened throughout mine and Ben's business. And there's been little points where we've been like, 'Oh, okay, we're going to focus more on this now.' and we've seen exponential return on focusing on a few things. Has that happened throughout your career where you've just seen, I mean, we know it happened at the beginning, but has it happened at any point in your career further down the line where you've noticed these little things that you focus more effort on and they happen to get exponential returns?

Yeah, I, I think, I think, look, I'm not, I'm not here to say this is what sets me apart because You'd have to ask my clients or my candidates, right? I think, I think the one thing that I, that I kind of try and think about, and this, this is the one thing that really stays with, has stayed with me since, like, one of my directors at Hayes told it, told, told it to us, I think, back in November night, quite kind of quite close to, to, to now. He was like, look, if you genuinely come in and you spend the whole day at your desk are, can you go home and feel like you've tried to help someone find a new role? If you, if you can feel like you've gone home and you've tried to help someone get a new job, then you can go home happy. If you can't, then maybe you should stay longer, send one more email, pick up one more phone call. And the best thing about recruitment is that there's always markets open. But I, I recruit in London, New York, Central America, the East Coast, and then when they go to sleep, you know, you've got Hong Kong, Sydney, uh, Singapore, uh, and, and kind of APAC waking up. So like hypothetically, and my fiancée will kill me for saying this, but I could just live in the office. If I wanted to. If it was really that bad and I was really like backs to the wall, then you can always pick up the phone to try and make something happen. I'm a fair believer in that. So when I— when everyone starts, I'm like, yes, there's hundreds of different recruitment agencies that you can go and work for, but the only person that's going to define whether or not you're successful or not, it's not anyone else, it's just you. So Uh, you want to be in an environment whereby you've got people in there that are pushing you to do that. That's my point.

Yeah, I love that, mate.

I have this—

I love your intensity, Freddie, in terms of how passionate you are about what you do. I can tell that your mindset and your intensity to your work has been, uh, I'm guessing it has been a lot to do with your success. Have you always had that intensity since you started recruitment, or was that was that built over years? Because my brain kind of was built into intensity. I wasn't— I don't think I was like naturally— I have a naturally addictive personality, but the longer me and Ben have gone on in business, the more intense I get, and I'm actually happiest when I'm going all in. But like, did you— are you just naturally like that, or did you build that?

I just—

I'm interested to understand.

Well, it's like dating, right? You don't— yeah, again, I really hope she doesn't listen to this podcast. You don't fall in love and decide to marry someone on day one. Well, I don't. I don't. It's built up over time, and you've got to go through first date, second date, third date, it not working, finding something else. And I, I did— I had my, my career, if you look on my LinkedIn, it is quite choppy because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I certainly didn't want to— I certainly didn't want to start in recruitment. That's not what— that's not what I wanted to do at all. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, and I kind of thought— there was a point in my career I was like, look, I've got to do something with the degree that I've got because I don't think that recruitment is fulfilling my intellectual prowess. And then I just— I was very fortunate to work in the industry that I now recruit for, so I actually feel like I understand 5% of what I'm talking about. Which is 2.5% more than most recruiters. Um, maybe I'm like an estate agent. I understand that I'm selling a house. Yeah, yeah, I'm reading out the description. Um, so, uh, I think, I think I've— the more people that I— I guess the more successful I've become the more you enjoy the job.

Love that.

I think that is like a snowball effect. You come in and you actually want to come in and say, right, okay, well, I did it. Let's say if I did a million last year, I wanted to do— I want to do 1.5 million this year. You don't ever— I've had the mentality where I don't ever— everything is going to be better than what it was. The cliché is you're only as good as your last deal, right?

Yeah.

250 last month. I'm on zero this month. Uh, so like, you can't get away from that. And that's why, that's why I love it, right? You could be here and then zero. So to answer your question, now that I've got my own recruitment firm, I absolutely fucking love recruitment.

Really?

Yeah, it's like one of the top 3 things in my life. It's, uh, it's, it's my fiancée, my family, the dog, and recruitment. Um, and it's an interchangeable order depending on how you feel, how much a candidate has decided to take the job, or if I've had any issues. So, you know, it is flexible, which is what you like.

Well, very interesting.

The Premier League, Arsenal— wow, Arsenal are definitely not going to win, but sometimes they're on top, sometimes they're in fourth, sometimes So it's like, that's how you see it, right?

Yeah, very interesting. I, I— we've got to talk a little bit about business development, and it sounds like, like most recruiters, your business development strategy has progressed over time, um, Freddie. But I'm curious, when you were in Hayes, what, what were they drumming into you? What were they teaching you, um, to, to win new business? What were the kind of daily activities that you had to do?

Oh gosh, I know, I love my time at Hayes. Um, I look back at it and I'm very fortunate to say that I got the training that I did because I don't— I, I think a graduate Hays now would probably look different to my time.

Interesting.

Um, I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't know. But it was, um, I just used to— it was, it was, it was so simple. I remember walking in the first day and they were like, right, this is a PowerPoint on the market that you recruit for. And I think it was, right, I know it was, I'm not saying why, I don't know. It was payroll. It was payroll. Oh, cool. And it's the HR/finance people that pay you money. So obviously every company in the world is going to need one, isn't it? Because you have to get paid. Simple, right? And then Hazy was like, right, these are the postcodes that you're allowed to recruit for people in. And these are the industries that you recruit for. And I was like, right, okay, I'm going to be recruiting construction and property. Uh, no, it wasn't council, it was retail. And I think there was like healthcare within everywhere from Zone 1 to 3, excluding W1, because W1 was its own postcode because it was posh. I was— it was like, right, okay, go off and make something happen. And so I was like, right, there's a strategy here. I could just call up loads of payroll. Uh, most, most individuals in payroll, uh, are lovely ladies with families that kind of like HR and like finance. It's kind of its own kind of niche. I used to call up all these companies in my directory. It was literally so simple. It was like, these are the companies that I can recruit for. Um, and I just used to pretend to have a payroll query. And so I used to get on the payroll manager or the payroll assistant and I'd go, well, do you fancy a new job then? And it was, it was more than that. I don't, I just, you know, he got through the gatekeeper and it was just very fortunate, right? I don't know, maybe there was some charm and some, some persuasion there on the phone, but I know he drummed into me like, you just keep getting on the phone. I love, I love getting on the phone. I don't go on, I think, as a, as a headhunter anymore. I still find, I still feel the nerves that I felt when I was like a 22-year-old graduate when I get on the phone.

Oh really? That's so interesting.

Yeah, yeah. Feels like it like amps me up.

Yeah.

I'm going, this could go one of two ways, but I know how important it is now. Yeah. How important it was back then.

What's interesting is just with the payroll, uh, um, uh, the women that you were calling up, that you ask questions first. And if we know anything about humans, people love talking about their craft and what they do. So I just think that's quite a clever strategy. And then you deliver the, oh hey, do you want a new job? Is there any element of that that you still use today? Like, you know, starting the call with asking questions, or is it a completely different strategy nowadays?

Uh, I think it's all changed. It was— you used to, because I now recruit hedge funds, private equity, and asset management, and these are the guys that used to come in 5 days a week and they were in the office. So you'd have to phone. You could just phone them. You wanted to get a hold of someone, you just phoned them. It's very simple. And then they usually tell you to piss off because their job is way more important than getting a call from a headhunter, right?

Yeah.

COVID has completely shifted that sort of dynamic, I think, to a lesser extent, whereby I, I don't know, and I'm thinking about— I, I think about myself being very fortunate to have a job. So I think a lot of, I think a lot of people, a lot of recruiters see, see a job in, in a very negative way, whereas I think a job is going to benefit me either now in the short term, or it's definitely going to benefit me in 3 or 4 or 5 years' time. Because I am fortunate enough to say that I remember every single— pretty much every single job that I've recruited for in my specs. And I also fortunate enough to remember the people that I've spoken with for specific jobs. So I call them up and I go, yeah, we spoke back in 2017 about this job here. And you said you weren't that interested. So like, my brain is like a weird CRM.

That's crazy.

Like, um, and it's great because people— we all recruit the same space, and I go, no, that person's gone there, and then they've gone there, and then they've done this, or that, that person can be a good thing. Um, so, um, I've gone off on a massive tangent now and I can't— no, it's okay. So like, yeah, I think anyone that's fortunate enough— because it's so hard to get the business development— is like, if everyone had more jobs, you'd say if you had more jobs, um, you fill more, you get paid more. So there's— you just kind of try and make it as simple as possible. So if you're fortunate enough to get a job, you've got to do everything you can to try and fill that job. And if you don't fill the job, it's not the end of the world, because what you've done is you've worked worked on a job recently in that space. And you can also— I also use that as an opportunity to call people that necessarily I know are not quite a good fit and I'll pull them up and say, right, well, I actually don't think this is a good fit for you, but I have to make sure that I'm doing my due diligence. Is this a good fit? They'll say no. Okay, well, what is? Okay, have you spoken to anyone else recently? Okay, right, well, there you go. That's, that's, that's quite good opener.

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious—

sorry for any of this, even talking to any businesses.

Um, no, it's really interesting. If we were— because you're right, things have changed a lot since COVID If we were to take away your network right now and you had to go and find new jobs, what would be your go-to strategy? Like, is there any place where your brain gravitates to more if you were to start fresh right now and start hunting new jobs in your space?

I, I, I, I would— whatever to do, there's two things I would do is I would, I would literally write down the 4 or 5 companies that I wanted to go and recruit for and just, well, I just go there and knock on the door, on the front door.

Interesting.

By the way, I'm not kidding.

No, we believe you. Just to confirm, you would, you would find the top companies and you would physically go to the company and just try and get a meeting? Wow, that's really interesting. And what would do you know what you would say to get their attention? Would it literally just be like not turning— not say— not taking no as an answer? Would there be anything that you would say or do? Uh, I put you on the spot here, Freddie.

I'm sorry. Yeah, I know, I know. Well, taking my charisma and my charm out of it, people refer to me as like one of the poshest door-to-door salespeople in the world. Oh really? It's just like, well, I try. I mean, lots of confused receptions for the most part, but I mean, just— I have to be really honest. I'm like, look, I'm starting my own company, I want to work with this firm, is there any chance I can speak to Gary Blogs who's responsible for hiring people here?

I love that answer because it shows so much of your mindset just in that sentence, right, that you would turn up to a company and try and get business that way. A lot of people just would never even think of that. So, I mean, they would, they would think of it, but they would never do it. And the fact that you would do it, and I believe you, just tells a lot about your mindset.

Um, oh, I pick up the phone knowing that people are going to tell me to piss off. I, I like that. I don't, I don't, I don't— I used to find it like, oh, my fear of rejection was, was bad. Now I kind of just go, you know what, At least I try. At least I can go— this is going back to the point that I said earlier, right? Um, you can turn around and say, well, at least I tried. And, and look, it might not work, but you've done everything you can do to try and make it work.

I totally agree, mate. There's nothing better for me than getting to the end of a day being slightly exhausted but knowing that I was really productive and I did everything possible for my clients, for the business. Like, it's such a great feeling.

It's not fair. I think the way, the way that I think about it is it's my clients are first, then it's my team, then it's the candidates. They're kind of very intertwined. And then I've been able to help all of them, then I get a little bit of help. But we do this, we do this thing at Sheridan whereby it's kind of like if you watch football or sports, you get— I mean, every time you play someone, you get your first cap. And we do a little cap ceremony. Whoever, whoever has got a cap is able to give a cap to someone else, and we give a little speech, and it could be anyone. That for me is way, way, way more satisfying than me turning around to you and saying, oh, I did 250 last month, because it doesn't— it's more of a relief that, that that I've, that I've done it. I really want these guys to feel like they're part of something, and I think it's very easy in recruitment to, to just be an employee or working for someone else and they're skimming, that they're taking money from you. I want them to feel like I'm helping them generate money, and I think that's the big differential.

And yeah, sounds like you really care about your team. Yeah, Freddie, I love that.

Wow. Yeah, I tried, I tried to. I'm very fortunate to have a team that, that, that, that are great. And it's, it's, again, it's, it's them, it's, it's, it's the team, it's the— they're my colleagues, they're candidates, they're clients. Everyone's on the same level. As soon as you start to like switch up the levels, then it might work in the, in the, in the short term, but it's very much a case of right, we're all in this together. We're a small boutique executive search firm, and I'm competing against people that have had relationships in the, in the business for 30, 40 years. And I come up regularly against guys that have got like 100, 120 people in their firm. I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna outmaneuver them. It's no chance. So it's— you had to, you had to get lucky. You have to get lucky because, you know, someone else— if you— the other thing is my biggest mentality is like, if you don't do it, someone else will. And I say that to the team as well. It's like, if you don't put this candidate on the portal— we love portal pushing— portal pushing is—

portal pushing, yeah.

Well, if you don't do it, I'll do it and then I'll take the fee. It's like, it's up to you. I know it don't work.

Yeah, yeah. And, and just going back to business development, uh, Freddie, would you— is that in terms of the door-knocking, um, mentality, is that what you would advise your consultants, or do you give them or advise them something else in terms of how to draw up new business?

I don't know. I think, I think we're very full— I'm very fortunate in that we, we work, we work with individuals that are very additive to businesses. I think there's two types of— there's either like a salesperson or a research person that goes out and generates money.

Yeah.

Or there's someone that works, you know, middle or back office or ops. Harder for you to, to generate business that way unless you need to hire someone in that, in that, in that area. So I'm very much a case of, you know, good person, introduce them to another good firm, and then try and make it happen. That's, that's my, that's my honest approach to, to, to business development. But it also takes time. Like, I, I tell, I tell everyone that, like, Rome is not built in a day. And I, I constantly turn back and say, well, you know, there's, there's no pressure for you to come in and develop business from day one, but you can come in and you can come on, you can meet CEOs of trillion-dollar asset managers with me. You can come and You know, you— everything— my calendar is completely open, so you can see everything that I'm doing, um, at all times, because I have nothing to— I have nothing to hide. And people come in, get to work on the jobs that I work on. You kind of— you're, you're eligible, you're setting yourself up to, to come in and be successful and develop your own and carve out your own, your own opportunities from day one, rather than me saying And I've worked for, worked for people that have said, no, these are my clients, these are my candidates, I'm going to top draw them and I'm going to need this, that, you can't do this and you can't do that. And it's that, clearly for me, that doesn't work because I'll find a way to make it work, right? So, so I'm very much of the mentality that you just got to go out and make it happen. And it just, I'm just very fortunate enough to think that actually the best part of my day is when I'm in the office working and finding a new candidate that I hadn't spoken to before, going out and getting a new mandate from a new— from it— from a new client, um, doing stuff that people say, oh, it's not possible, you can't do that. I go, well, anything is— anything is possible, right?

Yeah, I love that, mate. Am I right in saying that in your, um, in your sector, afraid that if you find a good candidate, it's a lot easier to get a conversation with a client. So I'm guessing a lot of your BD is firstly finding great candidates and then introducing them to great companies. Am I right in saying that?

That's it, that's it. I mean, our business is predicated on finding the best— we call them the best investors for the best funds. Okay, so it's a very, it's a, it's a very different approach to the recruitment places— while the recruitment firms I've been, been at before, where it's kind of, it's, it's just slightly different. But that, that being said, um, as long as it's kind of semi in my, my wheelhouse, or if I think I can fill the job, I will, I will go after it like 110%. I might not be able to, to, to fill it, but give it a good go.

And what I'm curious about is Um, because, uh, and we have a few clients like that where it's very candidate-led, and if you find a good candidate, it's like absolute gold. Um, yeah, how do you go about finding those, you know, A players, A and B players? Um, is there— is it just through your network? Is there specific things you do to track down these people who are just top of their game that will be, uh, that you can introduce to other companies?

100%. And then it goes back to my, my initial point, like, I've been, I've been in recruitment now for, what, 10-ish years on and off? Fun enough. Um, I very much set up our firm to go, right, okay, the level of care that I'm gonna deliver on a junior job is exactly the same level of care that I'm going to deliver at a senior job. It doesn't matter if it's the analyst or the CEO, you're going to get the same level of improvement because I want to help people. And because I've had that mentality and that approach, If you find someone, and if you, you know, you might not always— I think people judge recruiters in two ways. They're either amazing if you find them the job, right? Immediately, it could be rubbish and just give you one call and then fortunately get you a job, and then you think they're amazing. Or there are one or two standout recruiters where you turn around and go, well, you didn't actually get me a job, but he gave me this advice and he tried to help me here, and he did this, this, this, this, this, and this and this. So if you have the right process and the right mentality and the right, right attitude almost towards that, I promise you that a job you've worked in, worked 5 years ago, will come back. Because either the candidates will introduce you to their friends, and good people know good people, or they'll remember this when they go and start to hire. Because no one— everyone in, fortunately in my industry, everyone's tends to set to stay in the industry. They don't tend to leave. So it's very much a case of, right, okay, you— I tried to get them their first job, so what, now that they're hiring manager, naturally they want to, they want to help, they want to help you. And that's certainly something I found since starting out my own firm, is that I've just been really honest with people and said, look, can you help me? And it's fine.

It's not—

it's really not the end of the world. Um, so I think, I think, I think there's that. And then I think it's just a, just a genuine, like, sense of, okay, well, if someone's got another job and I see it on LinkedIn, I'm genuinely happy for them because they wanted to leave their previous firm for whatever reason. And I know I can see the firm that they've gone to, and I think that's a good day. It happened today, like, there's a guy moved, and I was like, I'm really glad that he's been able to make, to make that move. I mean, I mean that. I know I'm not the sort of guy that turns around and goes, oh well, I should, I should have placed him here, or I should have done this, or I should have done that. It's more of a case of, okay, that's great, because you just got to be happy for people, and hopefully it comes back.

Love that, love that.

That's the, that's how you develop relationships and trust, and it's very difficult as recruiters, as you'll know, to develop trust, rapport, and relationships, because a lot of people are very transactional. That's fine, like, whatever, whatever, you know. I'm not, I'm not stating it at all because sometimes I have to be transactional because ultimately I've got to put food, food on the plate and keep the lights on. But wherever we can, we want to try and be consultative and add value. And if you can at least help someone and try and, try and find some sort of value from talking to them, then that's going to be a positive interaction which we're trying to foster. Love that.

I've got to jump into this, Freddie, because I found this really fascinating. Um, when I asked you how do you close most of your business, you said a lot of it is done via WhatsApp. So you said you did 250 last month. I'm guessing a big portion of that was done via WhatsApp. Um, which is interesting because most recruiters— I know we've had lots of things. We've had speccing out CVs, we've had cold calls, we've had podcasts, we've had content. Not one person has come back and said, I use WhatsApp. So it's really interesting, and I just want to delve deep into that. You kind of gave me a high-level view in the last call, but how do you make that work? How does one leverage WhatsApp successfully and close that, that amount of business?

Uh, it's not all— I should probably say it's not all WhatsApp.

Not all WhatsApp. Yeah, but I'm guessing a big portion.

I think WhatsApp is the biggest sales accelerator known to human existence.

Interesting.

Everybody is on WhatsApp all the time, apart from, um, American candidates. Don't— they use iMessage rather than WhatsApp. It's funny that Meta is like such a big thing and not that many people in America use WhatsApp. But WhatsApp is used by everyone excluding China and the US, which in itself is quite amusing if you think about it like that. But everyone is on WhatsApp all the time. All the time. And I promise you, because my fiancée messages me all the time. Same with my wife, she messages me all the time. Yeah, I mean, I'll look at my phone. There you go. I mean, that is 100% case in point. And like, if there has to be the recruiter there, it's like, oh, I don't really want to talk to my mum or my dad or my family chat or any of these lad chats that have got memes on them. And it's, it's a background. Oh, oh, there you go, the recruiter's come. I really— now I feel guilty that I need to come back to him. But I guess I'm very fortunate in that people do just respond to me quite a lot on WhatsApp. The other thing is you can't, you can't now always pick up the phone and, and, and talk to people whilst, you know, I do a lot of, um, recruitment in, in financial markets, so they can't just jump on a phone and find a meeting room. Sometimes they can, sometimes they just can't. So a lot more people have WhatsApp either on their phone or on their computer, and it's just— I remember when someone It was only recently I got WhatsApp on my computer. They're completely like game changer. It's like I do everything formally on like on Outlook, and then it's like 3, 4, 4 hours of screen time on WhatsApp a day, something like that.

Wow. By the way, Freddie, if you use WhatsApp on your desktop, there's a brilliant software called Kube that allows you to organize your conversations into like groups. So that's a, that's a little game changer that me and Ben use for our business. I don't know if you have found out.

I've got a personal phone.

Yeah, so, okay, cool. So you don't have—

I had to have total separation.

Oh, I see. So you've already got— okay, cool, that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, cool. It's completely— I completely separated. Cool, cool. I can— I never tell, but I should. But I know that every single one of the chats is important and relevant to something.

Cool.

Now I'm thinking about it and my— what's my phone's like?

And in terms of WhatsApp, uh, are they mainly candidates you're speaking to, clients, or a mixture of both?

You know you've made it when you've got your client on WhatsApp.

Yes.

Yeah, you know, that's, that's like, I always find that's the turning point. And then you go, oh, this bloke actually doesn't— all this— or this, this lovely lady doesn't actually hate me. Yeah, a little bit of value. I know That's, that's the turning point. And then the best, the utopia, right, is when you turn your clients into candidates and candidates into clients and you're WhatsApping them all the time.

And what I'd love to know, Freddie, is because I'm sure a lot of recruiters hearing this will be like, oh, WhatsApp, that I would love to get my clients on WhatsApp, but it feels a bit awkward asking them. Like, at what point in the conversation do you say, hey, can we move this to WhatsApp? Do you ask them? Do you just start a WhatsApp group? Like, how do you transition them from email to WhatsApp?

Well, I mean, you just— I, I do a lot of calling my clients. Cool. If you just call the clients on WhatsApp, then you go, I see, right, catch you. You start.

Cool, cool, cool. That makes sense. That makes sense.

It doesn't need to be like inorganic or just like— if I have a really quick question I don't think is worth an email, be like, hey, can you— can I chat for a couple of secs?

Yeah, but that calling on WhatsApp first is actually really interesting because you're setting them up for— the message doesn't seem as weird now. If you call them on WhatsApp and they see WhatsApp come up and then you message them on WhatsApp afterwards, it doesn't feel as weird, does it?

It could be really bad in the office, you know. I'm sorry, your signal could be really bad in the office.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. It's subtle, but it does— I think it does make a difference. Yeah. And what's that— have you found that a particular approach works best? Is it kind of just like that? Say, hey, have you got 2 seconds to speak? I've got a great candidate. Or, hey, 'Can you call me back?' Like, what have you found has been the most successful approach if you're calling these busy hedge fund managers or, you know, hiring managers or people?

Um, I think, I think a lot of what I do, it's driven by the, the candidate. Uh, and so I would just, I would message the candidate and say, 'Hey, look, can we chat?' And then, to be fair, a lot of people reach out to me now and go, 'Hey, you're reasonable at what you do. Um, can we Can we have a chat? Um, and, and there you go. And then it's just, it's, it's on from there. To be clear, I don't message all of my, all my clients on, on, on WhatsApp, only a, only a select few. But yeah, um, I think it's just the best in terms of like getting hold of someone and being able to accelerate, accelerate them through the process. There's nothing better. There's nothing better. I just don't like that. I also can't be bothered to go through emails and emails and an email. Yeah, everyone's on LinkedIn. You don't know if— I don't think WhatsApp has a junk folder as well, so that probably helps as well. If you've got something, you might just call it— it's just easier for everyone.

Yeah, it has an archive section, but I don't think a lot of people archive their conversation. But it's not the same as junk, right? Like, it doesn't automatically go to junk. That's what I think Freddie's saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it goes straight into like their inbox or into their screen.

Yeah, as a recruiter, you need to be like in and amongst their life. You want to be— the two— there's two things that I think where you know you're potentially going to close a candidate. The first is when they call you after an interview, they say they're going to do that and they never do. Let's be honest, it's that one in 10. Maybe I'm just not a very good headhunter, right? Um, and then the other one is when— is when they text— you get a client text from a client or candidate, or it's by— it's two, two ways, right? And then you go, I've made it, I've made it. And then they come back to you and they say, oh, I've got to— I want you to do some more work. And I'm like, yes, love that.

And it's why we use WhatsApp for our clients as well. It's quick, it's personal, and we are more ingrained in their life. So yeah, totally agree.

Yeah, well, no, no, no, no, you don't WhatsApp me yet, so, uh, we will, we will. Cool, cool.

Um, Freddie, we're coming to the end of the pod. I can't believe how quickly this has gone. It happens every single time. Um, I've just got one last question, which I find— I did a post about this and it really popped off. I got like some controversial opinions on it. Um, some people completely agreed, other people disagreed, but it was your statement of you think you're not a great salesperson. I can't remember what you said word for word, but you said you're not a great salesperson. Um, but despite that, you've done, you know, millions of pounds in placements. So my, my question is, if you feel like sales isn't the skill that's getting these deals closed, what would you say is the skill or characteristic that makes you such a, such a big biller? If you could put it down to one or two things, do you think?

Um, I've been, I've been doing this, this industry for a long time. Um, I think it, uh, this is, this could be quite a nice tangent. I think it's just people. Right, I said surround yourself with the best people. And it's very simple. I think if you work with the best people and you work with the best funds, then realistically all your job as a recruiter is to do is to try and introduce the best people to the best— to the— to your clients. And if you can do that, you can turn around and say, hang on, that's, that's what you need to do, then great. Um, I think you, you naturally get a sense as to whether or not someone is going to take an offer. And if you don't, there's loads— there's other people that have done this long enough that will give you an honest opinion. I would say just try and get as many people through, many good people as possible, and give your client a selection headache. It's kind of like— I, I use football analogies, I'm a longstanding Chelsea fan, but like, it, it's like, uh, going back to the Euros, it's like We'd rather— England would rather be in a position whereby you have to put Cole Palmer on the bench even though he's the best player in the world. Um, you want to be in a position ideally, and I know it's not— recruitment is an imperfect science because people come through at different stages. There's no such thing as the perfect timeline and the perfect— the per— I don't think I've ever done a search whereby it's like the stars have aligned in terms of I've been able to get 20 perfect CVs 10 perfect first interviews, 5 second interviews that have nailed it, all 5 of them want the job, and then, then the client's picking all 5. And that never happens. Like, realistically, it's not going to happen.

You've just got to do—

I think if you just do everything you can to get as many good people at the final stage as possible, then your job really is just to find and introduce people. And you know that ideally it's going to work, but if it doesn't work your job actually is not that, because you can't control if someone leaves a job because you're not actually in the interview process. You're not actually in that day-to-day. All you have to do is, is trust that you've done your part of the process, which is, you know, the client's come in and said, this is what we need to find, just go and find it.

Yeah, what I got from that, um, but is that you, you found the best people and you're matching them with the best companies. Once you do that and you have the best product on the market to offer to a brilliant company, sales becomes a lot easier. It's more about just, you know, placing a really good person in front of another good person.

I think there's that, and then there's also like— I, I, I think I always— I've noticed this a lot. It's like, reasons why you shouldn't use me. And like, you shouldn't use me because I'm not a big— we're not a big agency, right? We're not going to we're not gonna, we're not gonna be able to do that because we don't have a track record here. Um, you shouldn't use me because your other supplier or your other competitors use me. I like to be like really honest and say like, look, if you— if it comes back to— we can talk about like fee negotiation and all the rest of it. And I'd be like, look, I come in and I do recruitment from start to finish, and I give you a co-founder level of product. With that comes a price. If you don't want that price, I can offer you a different product. It's not the end of the world if you don't want that, because I will have other relationships that I've developed over a long time that will pay me more money. So it really, really— what I try and do is just put my best foot forward all the time. And if you can turn around and say, well, I put my best foot forward, then you've done everything you can to— for people to get a good job and for clients to to get them to, to, to get them a good person, because that's really all we're here to do.

Love that, mate. Thank you so much, uh, for your time, Freddie. Uh, Ben, you want to round it off, or do you want me to? Yeah, no, you're doing a good job, Sam. No, Freddie, thank you so much. It was, um, an absolute pleasure to have you on, and I'm so glad that I managed to randomly catch you for a call and invite you on here, because, uh, been really interesting to learn from you. And I think more than anything, I think from, from this conversation, it's just your mindset and your attitude towards recruitment and towards your work. And I think, not surprisingly, some of the biggest billers have always focused around mindset. And I love that, you know, one of my biggest takeaways— and there was a few on this podcast— was surrounding yourself with the right people. And that's something I don't do enough of. And I think it's a fantastic piece of advice. I think if more people did it, they would be a lot more successful. Um, so thank you so much for your words of wisdom, and, um, just really appreciate your time today.

Thanks for having me.

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