The Scott Adams School - 04/23/26 MICHAEL MALICE Joins Erica, Owen & Marcela

Oh, we're on, we're live. Whatever, listen, it is what it is. We get to see Michael's butt, we see his chair, he's grabbing some water. Welcome everybody. I am— you guys, good morning. You guys, you know I'm out of my mind giddy today, right, with Michael being here. So excited.

Good morning everyone.

Um, just let's just get this out of the way, Michael is an underwear model.

Yeah, sheath— sheath.com, promo code MALICE for 15% off. Sheath is the only underwear, I think, with dual pouch technology, which has one part pouch for one part of your male anatomy, another pouch, another part of your male anatomy. And I'm wearing it now, so it's nice.

Which part is 15% off?

Well, one part's like 75% off thanks to my unfortunate genetics, but I'm wearing it right now. It's really fun to talk to people knowing your underwear is gripping your junk.

Yeah, that's nice. Does anyone have a speaker playing out loud? Just check that. Um, all right, so you guys, that's Michael, and, um, thank you for coming. So listen, we can't do anything until we do one thing first. So you guys, let's join me now with Scott Adams.

But first, the simultaneous sip, the thing you're all here for. I know you are. And all you need is a cup or a mug or a glass, a tank or chalice or stein, a canteen, jug or flask, a of any kind. I like coffee. And join me now for this simultaneous sip. That's the thing that makes everything better. It's the dopamine hit of the day. Go! Go! Oh yeah, impeachy!

Oh, that's the impeachy one. I love that.

Michael Now I'm sleepy and depressed. Oh no.

Michael, we're so excited you're here. Hi everybody, I'm Erica. You are at the Scott Adams School. I am out of my mind. I was gonna say something else with Michael being here. We have Marcella and always stoic Owen, who as Michael has quickly caught onto, he just doesn't like to do hair, makeup, and clothes. So Owen just has a photo. That or he works for the alphabet agencies, we're not sure.

Mm-hmm.

So Michael, listen, it's been like a dream to have you on. And, um, you think we should be sleeping? You, Michael, everybody should be sleeping, but Scott Adams had a crazy-ass work ethic, so we're up. We're up.

Okay, I can do this.

You can do it. You can do it. Um, all right, so I just want to start off on a I'm going to start off on a little funny note for a second. So I've been watching you, Michael, for I don't know what's called ever.

And you sound like Owen and his Alphabet City brothers.

I sound like him?

Yeah, because I've been watching him.

Yes, right. Oh my God. All right, so what you guys need to understand, and this is— that was the perfect segue, is that Michael is like I, I don't like calling you a troll, although it's like an honor. Yeah, I know you're a troll. You're a troll. The best troll too, because if you don't understand what's happening, you just don't get it. So I want to give you an example. So we had, um, we had your friend Lisa De Pasquale on, and our friend, um, and I found an old clip, and I asked our friend Jay Plemons if he could just make a little compilation for me about what I'm talking about. So here's Lisa with Michael on his podcast, You're Welcome. I think this was about 6 years ago, and she's talking about her weight loss journey with Michael. And here's a little clip of how that went.

We have a very, very special episode today. We've got Lisa DiPasquale, who's the author of The SJW Handbook, but good friend. And more importantly, you lost 100 pounds.

110 pounds.

110.

Yeah, 145 for my height is, is considered normal. A lot of preemies do end up being overweight because they're always being overfed. And I was a month premature, um, coming home to an empty house. It was just like a free-for-all. So I would basically have like a second lunch or first dinner or, you know, whatever. And that was sort of— and I thank you, um, that was my like alone time. And I think that might be part of why I was going for quantity because it didn't taste like particularly good. You know, so, so remind people. So I, you know, I remember there was— you remember the Presidential Fitness Test?

Of course.

Okay, so to do that, and it didn't work, um, because you have to take that test in front of everybody.

Yeah, so you knew you're gonna look like an ass.

I mean, that's Michael.

Wait, wait, you missed the best part.

That was it? That was the clip?

No, no, no, no, you missed the best part. The best part was I had some I was making sandwiches with Nutella, right? And then I did like this, and Lisa's like, oh, you got some on your face. And then I pulled out a hand mirror that I had on my lap the whole time, and I took the Nutella and made a beard out of it. Um, and I said, shh, and I started admiring myself in the mirror with the Nutella beard. And I did the other half of the interview wearing a beard of Nutella. And what was fascinating about that, and this actually is a good segue to something serious, is the amount of people in the audience who were like, um, I can't believe he's doing this to her, what an ass, because human beings cannot distinguish between what is on their screen and what is looking out of their window, and it never entered their head Hey, what you're seeing directly in front of you isn't what it looks like because, well, not obviously, but I did clear it beforehand with Lisa. She was in on the gag. She was actually a bit offended because she's like, just because I'm heavy doesn't mean I'm an animal. Like, if I'm around Twizzlers, I'm able to have a conversation without tackling you across the table. But no, you're laughing, but it's true. It's a very important point. Because human beings are very bad at modeling other people's mental state. So from their perspective— and what Scott said, what percent of people don't have any humor at all?

30.

30. Now, people don't even understand that quote because there's a very big difference between, like, The Big Bang Theory is a show I personally don't like, but if, if we're playing the SATs and I had to circle the words that are the jokes, even without a laugh track, I could perceive them. I might not find them funny, but okay, this is meant to be the punchline, this being the punchline. Most people don't have that, right? At 30% per Scott Adams, which is a huge— one in three. Think about how many people you talk to on a regular basis. It's not that they don't have the same sense of humor as you, which most people don't— different people, different sense of humor— they can't perceive humor at all. So if you're looking at this clip at face value, what a jerk to do this to his friend, It never even— and even if it's explained, they would still be like, oh, I'm sure she was just patronizing or whatever or something like that. We did another episode, uh, and I was also— I did the same thing with like celery sticks and carrots because she had lost even more weight. But it was even funny about that is I made sure to crinkle the stuff by the microphone to really irritate the audience for the listeners. Yeah, but I want to talk about something else that kind of— that leads into Scott's stuff, which is If there's one thing you take away from this episode, it's, uh, it's too damn early. But if there's two things, it's too damn early and human beings are not all wired the same. Uh, we're taught this in school from a very early age, and most of us don't really have much introspection, right? If you ask somebody, how do you think this way, or where this idea get in your head, it kind of gets taken aback because they're like, what do you mean? It's just kind of there. And if you have that kind of mindset, you're going to assume, OK, someone's older than me or different man, woman, or they're a kid, or they have different background. Sure, they're going to have different biography. But mentally, they're basically going to be the same as me. And that is a huge— thanks, Owen— that is a huge mistake. Humor is a very obvious example. And once you realize, wait a minute, if 30% of people don't have a sense— let's suppose it's 20%. Let's suppose Scott's being a freak and exaggerating for whatever purpose. 1 in 5 people don't perceive humor. Now, think about what that means for every other thing, your politics, how do you approach disagreements, how do you approach workflow. It's a very common trope. Oh, you're young. I did this. You're starting out, "I'm going to do business with my friends because I like him. He likes me. We kind of like the same things. We're roughly socially wired the same." So, one would think, "Okay, if we are good as friends, therefore, we're probably going to be good as business partners." And the 4 of us, I think, are old enough at this point to know how ridiculous that is and that often, more often than not, ends in tragedy. But that's another, you know, obvious example of thinking, okay, if someone has commonalities with me in one aspect socially, well, since we're wired the same, we're probably going to have a same approach to business. Or think about this way: how many friends do you have whose house is the same level of neatness as you, right? If you're a neat person, it's an obvious thing that your house should be neat. But if you're kind of a cluttered person, that neat person is wasting their time and is, um, uh, OCD. And the neat person thinks the other person's a slob. And one thing, by the way, I have never— this is— this— I have just this complete side note. I have never made my bed once. I do not see the utility. And I officially got permission from Jordan Peterson. That's okay. Oh, I confront him about it, and it's— I have been given the papal dispensation.

That's amazing.

I agree with you completely on all this. And I— the question I would ask is like, what percentage of people do you think do believe that everybody thinks like them? Because I think it's really high.

80. Yeah, it's going to be an astronomic number. I'll give you an example. I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off on it. Scott Adams, I can't see you though.

No, it's okay. So I would just say like, you know, I've used this the opposite, you know, knowing that people all think differently to my advantage at work all the time. Like I I have done consulting most of my career, and so I have all sorts of different clients and I have to serve what they need and make sure they're successful. And so I tailor everything to that person or to that company or to that group. And, um, I would be so less effective if I just assumed all the time that everybody thinks the way I do, because, you know, I would just fail left and right. And I consider it almost like a superpower just because I don't see anyone else doing it, like even people I work with. They seem to make these assumptions that everybody— yes, the way I do.

And they're taught that though. It's, it's something we're taught as kids. We're all the same under this. And this isn't a— it's, it, it obviously that's a good thing in like being anti-racist, roughly speaking. If someone comes in, they look differently from you for a job interview, let's give that person a chance. But no, I'll give you another example. This really kind of blew my mind. There was a guy, uh, in New York. I'm blanking on his name. Uh, he was a tech founder and he used to have these events. And the premise of the event was everyone comes to the event with a problem that they're, that's, they're dealing with in their lives. They'll put forth the problem to the group, and since we're all strangers, people will give them actionable advice. And as a Russian person, it was particularly interesting to see a bunch of Americans, um, because someone's advice was like, so their co-worker was having an issue, I don't remember the context, and it goes around the room And the advice was, sit down and talk with them. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, how is that good advice? Is it your belief that this person never thought of that? Is it your belief that they're like, oh shit, I could talk to them. I've never used this to make noises out of my mouth. But it was also insane to me because that, you know, when people say just be yourself. Well, I'm myself now. I'm also myself when I'm in the bathroom. I'm also my, myself when I'm in bed or in the bedroom. These, we all have different selves. The way I talk to Erica isn't the way I'm going to talk to Scott, even, even though they're, you know, mentally in the same set. I'm still going to have a distinction between I talk to them because Scott's a guy, so I respect him, and Erica is a female. So I was sitting there kind of like, how do you think this is advice to this person they never thought of? But also I was like, how do you think this is good advice? Because Americans have this— this again, we're all— if we all think the same, then if I have a problem, I can sit down and talk to you. But in reality, especially at work, human beings are often petty and vindictive. That if this is a certain personality type, if you sit down and in any way confront them, they might smile and nod and try to get back to you later, or they might— there's many ways this can play out, but it never enters people's heads because from their perspective If you came down and sat and talked to me, I would love that, you know, opportunity to clean, clear the air and kind of work forward and put things behind us. Lots of people don't think like that. I remember my very first job and my dad gave me some great advice because my boss said, I have an open door policy, right? If you have an issue, come and talk to me. Oh, okay. Well, that sounds nice. And then he pointed out people tell you, especially at work, how they want to be seen, and they might even believe that that's how they want to be seen. But if you keep taking advantage of that— and pun intended— no, no pun not intended, sorry, I'm sleepy. If you keep taking advantage of that open door policy, at a certain point you're the problem, because that person, that boss, will still say in his mind, yeah, I have an open door policy, but Michael or Eric or whoever is just being insufferable or being, you know, too thin-skinned. So people have no problem presenting themselves and telling you, this is who I am, but you have— you cannot take them at face value. Here's, here's another example, springboarding what we talked about earlier. How many— if 1 in 3 people per Scott Adams, 1 in 2, whatever, 1 in 5 as we lowered it earlier, how many people have you ever heard say We've all heard people say, I'm bad at math, or I'm, you know, maybe I'm not a good driver, or I'm bad with directions. Have you ever heard someone say, I don't have a sense of humor, or I have a poor sense of humor?

Never.

No, never. And they do.

It will always be, oh, the joke, if the joke was so funny, why didn't I get it? It's right now. If you look at a math problem, it's like, I can't do this. This is complicated. I'm not good at math. The joke. No, it's your fault. You made the bad joke, right?

So, well, Scott Adams used to say like that, you know, they think they have a sense of humor, they— but really what they're doing is they'll just laugh when the laugh track happens or when other people laugh, and they'll think, oh, I thought it was funny, but really they're just following along and they really have no idea. But they don't perceive it that way. I think they actually believe they have a sense of humor, but they don't.

And here's their— well, here's their proof. I'm laughing all the time. I watch this show, I laugh when they laugh, therefore I have a sense— that's their logic. And this plays into politics in a very important way. I think everyone, I would bet, who's on this, uh, channel right now is someone who's at least somewhat intellectually curious.

Yes.

I don't think you're going to be a Scott Adams listener, especially now, and, and have that kind of closed-mindedness. You're interested in ideas, you're interested in discussions, and therefore You will think whoever I talk to, and it's really hard to think of someone who's not intellectually curious because my God, life is wonderful and there's so many things you could learn about and it's so exciting and nature shows and astronomy or sports or politics or with the weather. I mean, we could literally talk for infinity about all different things. So you assume that everybody else who you have a positive impression of and people are mostly amiable are going to have that same perspective. And then when I say it out loud and ask, I ask you, do you think everyone is intellectually curious? It's like, no, of course. I mean, it's a joke to put it explicitly. So what happens is if you're someone who's into an idea and you're at work and you want to talk to them about the idea, you're excited. The people I cannot deal with are people who are high on agreeableness. There's this metric called agreeableness, which means You're conflict averse. So if there's something happening that you're not comfortable with, like Erica's running her mouth to me about whatever, the Grand Canyon, or, you know, some cool black hole, I'm going to, especially at work, I'm not going to try to press an issue. I'm going to smile and nod, but viscerally now, I'm going to feel this divide toward her. And that is something that is going to be counterproductive for her going forward. So don't assume, even though objectively it is awesome, whatever she learned about the Grand Canyon, because what an amazing thing. Again, 30% of people don't have a sense of humor. The amount of people who are intellectually incurious is even bigger than that from my experience.

That's a good thing to remember because that's a situation where I can like feel my blood pressure rise sometimes where you run into those situations and you're just like, why? You know, and I know like it's not everybody's thing. And but then you come here and you, and you like satisfy that itch here, you know, and you go to podcasts and you talk to people that maybe do live in this type of a space. And thank God you can, because if you can't find it in your real life, find it in your real life in here. Yes. Right. Because I, you know, I don't— there's just like a different level of understanding. Like anybody, I think, and I keep bringing this up with every guest that's come on that was at Scott's memorial is I didn't want to leave because I was like, oh my God, everybody gets it.

Yeah.

And it was like so comforting to know that whoever I was looking at and talking to already got it at a level that just made me feel so happy and comfortable. I really— I was like, I literally have a vision of you, Michael, when you got in the Uber when you were leaving, and I was like actually sad. Like I wanted to run over to your Uber and be like, don't go. Like I felt so clingy me to you, um, and to Joel and everybody, Cernovich. But, um, actually, can I play a clip from the memorial? I, I just have a little clip I want to play.

Up next, Michael Malice.

Sorry for the echo, guys.

Impossible to breathe in this thing. Uh, I had a whole bit with this where I was going to show up and say, if you just dress like Dilbert, you get past security, and then tell people horrible things like, do you want to see my knife? But we're going to put this aside. The other thing Scott Adams tried to do was to make people think and to make people think about how they thought. Again, not everything you said was on the money, but how would that even be possible? No one can say smart things all the time. But when you're dealing with a smart person like Scott Adams, you remember those smart things they said for the rest of your life. You might also remember those dumb things, because it's surprising when a smart person says something dumb. It's not a surprise when a dumb person says something dumb. You just go on thinking, yep, there they go, being dumb. But when a smart person says something dumb, you think, huh, that's odd that this smart person said a dumb thing. And if you really want to get into it, you wonder, hey, maybe I'm the one being dumb here. Maybe he sees something I don't, or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what he means. I've seen both situations happen more times than I can count, but Scott never tried to make people sad or depressed, not once. It wasn't part of his vocabulary.

Perfectly wraps that up, really. I mean, that was so beautiful, Michael. I mean, it was hilarious, oddly, and then, you know, what you said was so poignant and so on the spot of Scott Adams. And, um, you know, you had sent me prior to going your remarks that you would maybe say there. And oh my God, you wrote that! So you said, I'm writing this like in the frame that if you were Scott Adams, and you wrote just like Scott spoke, which was amazing. And, um, you nailed it. And I wish I had it in front of me to just read the part. You know, everybody of course loved where you said that, you know, we're all having a party for Scott and he's just really late.

And that's book Reframe Your Brain. For people, I said, let's reframe this. So the frame is we're having a memorial service for Scott. Reframe: we're having a party, Scott's really late. Um, and everyone laughed at that because that is a very Scott thing to do. But it's like, all immediately the energy in the room changes, you know. Now it's fun.

Yes. And, uh, you know, I wanted to just like talk about that whole experience because I felt like I thought I knew a lot about Scott, but man, did I learn so much more about Scott just hearing from everybody's perspective of him and their relationship with him, especially hearing from his family about him. And, you know, just— and I try to tell everybody, like, whatever you— and you guys watched it, he live streamed it, he wanted us to, to know everything like that. And whatever you thought about how amazing he was, and he was to be there, you realize like, God, it's so much bigger than I can wrap my head around. Like, what a gift he still is and was to this world. He had a worldwide reach and he really just wanted to be useful and be helpful. And his mission was like, he felt like, I just want to solve problems and be useful. And man, like to his last breath, that's literally what he was doing. I wanted to ask you, so I have a couple of pictures. Um, here is Michael and the— oh, like, how do I make this bigger?

Come on, Boomer.

I know, I know. Oh wait, Michael, close your eyes for a second, okay?

Okay.

Every time— don't look— every time you take a drink, okay guys? All right. Um, so there's Michael. You can open your eyes now.

Still has the eyes closed.

There's Michael, um, and above him is the Dilbert mask he wore. So, um, he left it in the Dilbert Museum at Scott Adams' house, which was great. And to see that museum, wasn't that amazing? I mean, just to see all of that stuff in there. Michael, what was your experience when you walked in there? We were together at that point.

Um, there was something I didn't like about being in a, in a dead person's house, I felt a bit intruding. So obviously I wasn't, and this is what Scott wanted, but it's like being in someone's home when they're gone. There's something about that that I was like, I didn't want to feel disrespectful, which I wasn't, but there was still that sense of like— again, it's a Russian thing. If the person didn't invite me into their home, it's like I shouldn't be here. Obviously that doesn't make sense literally here, but You know, there was that level. So I was very kind of cautious, you know, like, "Don't touch anything" kind of situation. In that room, besides all the Dilbert, you know, memorabilia, um, and I'm sure it's just a portion of Dilbert memorabilia, 'cause there's so much of that stuff, uh, he had his photo albums. So going through— uh, Scott's a bit older than me, but, like, I can remember what the— I remember those eras very well. So he would've been, I guess, like, in high school when I was a kid. So seeing the quality of the film, and the lighting, it took me back to like the '80s and being a kid. It was just very— I know he would have been very happy that everyone, you know, made the hike to his place and were enjoying themselves. Everyone— I know many people, and this is my— well, it's not really my feeling anymore, but many people I know are like, when I'm gone, I want you to have a party. Like, I—

yeah.

There's no utility in— you're going to be sad, you're going to miss me, and of course, but, you know, pulling out your hair and, you know, wearing black and mourning, like, how does that help me? I'm not there. So it's— I think that Scott was very much that very rational mindset where he'd be like, why would I want people I care about to suffer? And at the very least, if I'm not there to enjoy it, Like you would, right? Like, if I'm gonna make people I care about suffer, at least let me be there to see it, right?

Do it now.

No way.

Yeah. Well, so one thing that you took away— I have a picture of you and Marcella here. And what was that book that you got that was in Russian?

Russian? Yeah, that was Win Bigly. Um, and I forget what the title was, but it's something like, you know, Negotiate Like Trump. Since Russian is my first language, I thought it was really cool to have Scott's copy. I also was given permission by you guys to have two of his markers, so I have those upstairs. I'm gonna get them framed.

Oh, I know, I was glad you got those. So, um, oh, and you guys saw this. This is us with the Dilbert mask. Um, so then No, wait, one more thing.

Let's talk about that mask.

Yes.

So first of all, I— the— I have to leave on, uh, I think it was a Friday. The mask shows up, it's in my mailbox locker, the key doesn't work, and it's like 8 PM. And I'm like, what is— and I have to leave the next day. And I'm like, if I'm not at this memorial with this mask, there's going to be a massacre. And I had to wait for that mail lady to come and run out there and be like, ah. So, uh, um, I got the mask and it was really exciting in that regard. My plan was to, like I talked to you about, Erica, was to show up in the mask, have you show me around to people and have them wonder if I'm like someone with a knife. And as soon as I walk in, everyone's like, hey Michael. And I'm like, like, really?

In one second?

In one second. I'm like, what?

So yeah, I was looking for you, then you walked in. He gets his mask on, he's got the outfit on too, you guys. He He goes all out. Michael is known to show up with full regalia of some kind. And I swear it was so funny. He puts the mask on. We're walking down the hallway. There's Greg and Walter and they're like, oh, hey, Michael. And I'm like, well, now what do we do?

They all knew.

Yeah.

Okay, so I, I remember this. I will never forget this moment, but Walking into Scott Adams' office, Shelley took us in. Um, you know, it wasn't open for everybody, but she was like, you know, she took a— you mostly like the people who would podcast and whatever. Um, walking in here and seeing this room, it was like, to me, that's the museum.

Oh yeah.

You know, what were your thoughts when you walked in there?

Um, I'm gonna— this is an exaggerated word because it's not literally the word, but it felt like a sacred kind of space. Um, because, you know, as an author myself, like, the— your office is— you're spending a lot of time, and that's when you're doing your work, right? So that's really where the magic happens. So first of all, people at home don't realize Scott had this amazing view out of his office. So you think office, you think this is kind of small and cramped, but if you look, turned his head, you had this really, which makes sense. You know, if you're Scott, why wouldn't you have that? So that was really cool to see that, to have that perspective that when he's podcasting, he's not just in some cubicle like in Dilbert. He's looking out, he sees beauty, and I'm sure that's going to be very motivational and explains why he was happy to be up at such an ungodly hour.

But let me just jump in on that point because I met with Scott Scott Adams before he died. Um, very lucky and honored to be able to visit him, and he gave me a tour of his house, and he brought me out onto that balcony, and he showed me the view, and he's like, you know, when I built my house, I had no idea that this view was going to be like this.

Oh wow.

And he said, if I had known it was going to look like this, I would have built the house completely differently and had all kinds of big windows and all sorts of things.

Oh my God.

So funny, because apparently no one ever went up that high when they were making the plans to know that as soon as they got over the tree line, there was this, you know, incredible view of the mountains.

I mean, what a great lesson on perspective, huh? In a literal sense, but it speaks to a lot of things. Here's like what we're talking about earlier. I think we all assume— I remember I saw this interview with Jane Wiedlin from the Go-Go's. It was a who had '80s band. It was a VH1 Behind the Music, and she very sarcastically was saying, oh, once you're rock stars, you're gonna be happy all the time. He's like— and like rolling her eyes. And of course everyone listening to this knows how absurd that sounds when you're a kid, but to point of perspective, we all tend to think, once I'm married, once I have this job, once I have a book published, everything's going to be great. It's not. Like, you don't know what's going to make you happy, or even if you have it. There's something called the hedonic treadmill, which is once you reach a certain level of happiness is that's your baseline and you kind of get used to it. So, you know, we set up all these goals for ourselves, and it can often be counterproductive because, like, I want this job so bad, or, you know, everyone thinks they're going to marry the first person they date. You know, your first girlfriend or your first boyfriend, you think, oh my God, I broke up with them, I'm never gonna find anyone again. When you talk to a kid, it's kind of ridiculous. Yeah, but we, we assume that once we achieve a certain thing that we're set, and that's like trying to be a bride but not being a wife. You're planning for that day, but you're not planning for the life after it, which is very counterproductive.

Planning for the wedding, not the marriage, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I felt like when I walked in there, oh my gosh, I was just like, forget that museum. Like, this is the museum here. And I just wanted to like dismantle the whole thing and bring it to my house. And, and I, I suggested, I said, let's take a picture behind the desk because I kind of wanted everyone to know too. It's like so massive behind there. Like, you don't have that perspective when he was on camera. You'd see him roll his chair back, but like, he could really— he could tap dance back there. He had the double whiteboard back there. But it just feels like, I just wish we could, you know, have it, you know, in an actual Dilbert Museum, which, you know, is the hope one day to have all of his things. I know people ask, like, to have the things that he had in the museum and things that were also in a closet that you didn't see. I would love to see like that desk there, everything recreated, and have it like live in some, you know, public place that people could go see. I don't know where, but I, I just felt it. I think everybody walked in, I heard some kind of audible sound from them, like, ah, if it's gonna be somewhere, it's gotta be like Scranton, right?

Because it's like, that's where the office is.

Yeah, I think that would be good.

But the thing that surprised me the most about Scott's house, and I hope this isn't, uh, telling a tale out of school, I have a huge library and I'm a book collector, so I wanted like, like one of Scott's books, something that meant a lot to him. And everyone's like, he doesn't read books. Like, there were, there were very few. And I was like, I got a couple of his books, meaning books that he had authored, right? I was looking for like some, you know, 1920s Dale Carnegie or something like that, and it was like, nope. You're getting— there's the only books that are there had been recently published. That was a big surprise to me.

His bookshelf was like 5 books. Yeah, yeah, yep. Isn't that funny? And he never wanted people to send him books. He's like, don't send me books, don't— yeah, just go ahead, Marcela.

I love reading, so I would always tell him, I'm reading this, I'm reading that, and he's like, oh, I don't like reading, why do you read? And then to me it was shocking. So when you I, I was with you in the office and you mentioned, where are his books? Where's his library? I was like, no, he didn't read. And you like didn't believe me. So like, I think you asked Shelley too, and Shelley confirmed it. And, um, you were shocked just like I was when I, you know, when I became friends with him.

But it's also how many things does he reference, you know? It's not like he's just running his mouth about Scott Adams views.

He talks Right.

You know, different thinkers and things like that and historical references. So I don't know where he was getting them from, but it wasn't the bookshelf. And how many books has he written? 30? No, more than Gilbert alone's 30. So it's gotta be like 50 books or something crazy. And it's like, you don't have— yeah, like where— what? So especially Persuasion. My God, how many books have been written about how the mind works, how to process information? You know how many— if you break down persuasion, it's like there's even in and of itself there's like 20 elements. So I'm like, okay, that's gonna be 20 bookshelves.

Nope.

I know, it's amazing. How much time do we have? Oh good, plenty. All right, so Michael, I'm pivoting again. You guys have a sip of coffee, do whatever you got to do. We got another clip I, I definitely want to get to because this— so I'm always, when I try to explain you to people who haven't heard of you yet, which is just insane. I, I could talk about you for days, but I don't even know what I'm saying because I'm like, oh my God, he's the biggest troll, he's hilarious, but he's got like this heart and he's kind and he's brilliant and he's like a historian. And all— you're like the everyman, I'm telling you. You're just like— I want to like— I want to just smush you up and like keep you here with me. Um, I do. I like— I am upset. I love you, and not in a non-creepy way. Yes, yes, I would be such a good kidnapper because I would be amazing for you.

But, uh, we found Nancy Guthrie! It's at Erica's house. Peter, Owen, call the boys in! She's got Grandma!

Who's behind that door?

I'm picking up those Misery vibes.

Oh my God, I'm not creepy. You have like an Italian Jersey girl kidnapper. I mean, what's better than that? Um, No, but so anyway, what I want people to understand too, I mean, Michael, so when I first became aware of you, I think it was on Fox News 100 years ago. And you were, so Michael spent a lot of time in North Korea because he likes to vacation in places where he has to be monitored. Um, and, and you wrote about Kim Jong-il.

Yeah.

Right. Like an unofficial biography. I guess autobiography. It's autobiography. Sorry. Yes. Um, and nothing to do with anything than me to say, like, he's— you're always so interested and inquisitive, and you want to know more, and you're probably one of the best listeners. You're thoughtful. Um, I remember this clip. I want to play it. Um, somebody made a clip out of it. Uh, NR Clips made it, and this is from It says 2022, and I just want to play this clip. Michael, when I play this, if you can hit the mute below. I have a feeling your account might be making an echo when this plays. Just— it might be yours. I was trying mine and the other ones, but if you just hit— not right now, just while this clip is playing. Let's just see how it goes. Um, yeah, it's a Rumble Studio thing.

Where am I hitting the mute? On the mic or on the speaker?

On the picture below.

Oh, okay, sorry.

On the Rumble Studio. Okay, let's just see if that's it, but otherwise it's fine. Okay, guys, so this is such great advice.

Okay, listen, give you a great example of this. I sometimes give talks on networking and I tell the kids, if you know someone's in town and it's their birthday with nothing to do, take them out. And I say, I do this for selfish reasons, and everyone laughs. And I go, think about it this way. The guy who takes people out for their birthday is awesome. That could be you. Like, you have that capacity to be that person and you're making that day feel special. They're gonna remember for a long time. What's the cost? Dinner, $30, $25. So there, it's, it's, it's very disturbing to me how often people have opportunities to slightly move the needle. And make things a bit better at almost no cost. And they just literally don't think in those terms. And one of the things Camus talked about, you know, he's often described as an existentialist, which he did not like that term. He regarded himself as an absurdist, is the idea that we're basically blank canvases. And this isn't something that is dangerous. This is an enormous opportunity. And you have the ability to become the kind of man or woman that you admire and want to be. You don't have to be, you know, I don't know, George Washington or one of these great heroes of all time, but everyone out there has the capacity— capacity, excuse me— to be a hero to their kids or to be a hero to maybe some— there's, there's nursing homes and there's old people who are lonely. I think that you take in a dog that's on its last legs. These are little things people do, um, that aren't heroic in the sense of Superman, but that I find admirable extremely, and I think are very underrated because these people aren't champion.

And that's what Scott would call also to be useful. And I love that. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Sure. So this is something that is both hypothetical and something that's profoundly affected my life. So I want to speak a bit about Camus because he's affected me profoundly. He's a French author, died at quite a young age, I believe 1960, in a car wreck. Um, he's most famous for his novel The Stranger. He also wrote a novel called The Plague, which a lot of people were reading, uh, during COVID Uh, but his nonfiction is something I find much more preferable. And Camus is known for believing that life is meaningless. And when you're in high school, you take that to mean being a goth and, you know, all this dark stuff. But what he meant, as I said in that clip, is that this is a huge opportunity, because now you're in a position to create meaning in your life. And it's the ultimate freedom that you can be whatever kind of person you would like. And how this affected me profoundly in my life is there was a movie called American Splendor, which came out, I believe, in 2003. Or I got— maybe I'm getting that wrong. And Harvey Pekar was the protagonist. He had been a file clerk out of Cleveland, Um, his comic, the, the narration would begin, from off the streets of Cleveland, here comes American Splendor, was this comic book series. He became kind of notorious for being on Letterman and being kind of a bit of a crank and getting into a dave repeatedly. These clips now have millions of views on YouTube. I don't understand how. So when they're making the movie, Ted Hope, who was the producer, sent out an email to, uh, people that said Harvey's in town with nothing to do. If you want to hang out with him, this is your opportunity. And I had written a screenplay, which now 20-whatever-odd years later I'm making into a graphic novel. So if you want to look at the graphic novel, it's unwantedbook.com. Anyway, the keyboard player from the, um, uh, band that I was writing the screenplay about did the animation for the film, and he showed me that email. I'm the only one who took, uh, Harvey up on that offer. As a result, he wrote a graphic novel about me. I was the first person he wrote a book about other than himself, which is highly collectible now, which makes me feel nice. But point being, if you're working in a production company and someone has a movie made about them that's having all these great accolades, take the meeting. But people don't often think in terms of putting themselves out there or create— putting them— dating, you know. You could swipe all you want, but a much better way is— are you— you know, this is what the pickup artists call a target-rich environment. Are you in a position where you're meeting people, the kind— or networking for jobs? You know, you want to work in biotech. Are you going to meetings where you— or rooms where there's going to be people who are in that sphere that you can talk to, or you're just going to sit on your computer all day? So, uh, people— you create your own opportunities and Something else I tell people, and this is very much in both the Camus vein and the Scott Adams vein, I love having a bad meal in the sense that I've been with friends at restaurants and it takes them forever to serve you. And then the waiter's an ass and they get the food wrong and it's cold. And at a certain point, if something is so bad, it becomes a great memory and a great bonding experience. Because you remember the great meals, but that's few and far between. You really remember the ones— remember that time? Because it's like, how's this place in business? It doesn't make economic sense. They're not doing anything right. And it's so easy, you think, okay, the food's terrible, at least the waitress is nice. No. And how's it full if the food's terrible? Why am I waiting for a table? So, you know, if you have that attitude where a bad experience can make a great story. I mean, talk about a reframe.

Yeah.

That's something else that makes your life a lot easier because one of my favorite expressions is, this too shall pass. Are you really going to remember in a year from now how hungry you were? Maybe you'll remember how hungry you were, but is it going to matter? No.

So you'll never forget that meal you recently had in Austin where you ended up sick for about a few days.

The line. Oh my gosh. So this is really funny. I went to the Maha event. And then a bunch of all things. Yeah. And a bunch of us afterward went to this place called The Line, which I used to love to eat all the time. And then I got food poisoning. And the thing about the food poisoning is, which is a relief, you know, in like 48, 72 hours you're gonna be fine. Like, it's gonna be a pain for a couple of days, but like, I, I'm not concerned about, you know, needing to go to the hospital. And I, I have a fever and It's, you know, it's coming, you know, the trots, bathroom nap, bathroom nap, delirious.

The trots is my new favorite thing now. Just that term. I love it.

And then I look at my phone and, uh, the US is bombing Iran. I'm like, uh, I'm not— I don't, I don't care.

You're like, I can't be worried about Iran right now.

Yeah, like, like, I can't even process it right now. Like, what are we doing?

Oh my gosh, that's, that's a great reframe. I love that whole concept. And, and you guys, when we always say like, let's be useful, I mean, Michael in that clip listed 10 things off the bat you could do to be useful to someone else and be memorable. But it really makes a difference. Those things make a really big difference in another person's life or another animal's life or, you know, whatever it is. And also That is reciprocity because you're getting something out of it too. So when there's like mutual goodness, there's nothing better than that in my opinion. Um, yeah, thank you for that. So the last clip I wanted to play was, I think it was recently from Trigonometry. I know you were on there twice. Yeah, this was the more recent one.

Okay, same suit.

Oh, same suit. Okay, same suit. By the way, how many times have you been on Rogue and Ten?

Yeah.

Okay. 10 times, sometimes with an outfit. That last makeup thing, when I saw you in San Francisco, you were going to try to do something first for Rogan. It was like that weird, like, non-face face.

What I want—

no.

So what I wanted to do, and I'll spoil it, I'm still going to do at some point.

Okay.

I want to do an uncanny valley look. And for people who don't know, the uncanny valley is when things start looking close to human, there's this little space where it's unnerving, right? So if— so I wanted to look plastic, like a mannequin with blank eyes and like, like poreless skin. So it's just human enough that it's recognizable as human, but unhuman enough that it's disturbing.

Yeah.

And I talked to a makeup artist and they wanted like $3,000 or something like that. And I'm like, okay. So I did the Liechtenstein look instead.

With the little dots.

Yeah, which kind of speaks to, you know, right? Because I was there to talk about the graphic novel as well, so it would be on par with that.

I mean, Michael will show up with like clown makeup on and a whole like crazy outfit. It's awesome.

Okay, was that suit, um, the Kim Jong-il, uh, suit, was that made— you were talking about it— was it made in North Korea?

Young lady, Let me explain something to you about the story about that suit. Can we put up the suit? Just to clip the, the visual, the, the, like, the visual. President Trump in his second administration.

I couldn't freeze frame it. All right, so you can't pause it. Let's see, let me try.

You can— President Trump.

There we go.

There we go. So the thing with that suit is I was in North Korea and I at the Yanggakdo Hotel, which is called the Alcatraz of Fun. It's on an island in a river in the middle of Pyongyang that you're not— you're not allowed to leave, which sounds more ominous than it is. Anyway, when Shane Smith of Vice Magazine— they're the ones who kind of made North Korea a thing— he went there and he had a custom-made suit. So I'm like, okay, I'm not leaving this country without a custom-made, uh, suit. So when we were at the DMZ, we were there at the north part of the DMZ, obviously, right, which is the demilitarized zone which separates the two Koreas. And, uh, one of the guys on my tour was Belgian, and he had one of those accordion cameras, you know what I mean? Um, and he goes, okay, we all stood there, and he goes, okay, everyone hold that shot for 10 minutes. And we paused. He was joking, but you know, because those old cameras. And, and someone said to him, oh, you know, the point of having this recording camera in 2012, oh, you're such a hipster. And my guide says, what's a hipster? And I was standing there, I'm like, how do you explain hipster to a North Korean, right? So if people don't know, obviously, why would they know? The people who are stylish in North Korea are stylish in like the '80s. So their clothing would be like Dynasty or Dallas. It's the shoulder pads and Miami Vice.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the kind of style for the women because they don't have contemporary looks. And if they did, they'd probably get in legal trouble because that's dressing like a Westerner. Right? So I'm thinking how to explain to my guide. Remember, my friend had told me, and I said to her, oh, a hipster is someone who likes things that are old just because they're old. She's like, oh, okay, got it. So I keep bugging her, the guide, when are we going to the tailor's? When are we going to the tailor's? When are we going to the tailor's? We go to the tailor's. There's— it's under the escalator in the lobby. And they took my measurements, and she's showing me all the different types of suits and they're all Western style.' I'm like, 'No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Like, I want to suit like the great leader Kim Il-sung,' who's the founder of North Korea, um, you know, like he wore in the '40s.

You want the dictator special?

Yes. And my guide's like, 'Oh, hipster!' I was like, 'Oh, she got it.' So that— what's interesting is there, they live in the hotel. It's a sweatshop. But at the same time, and they're not— I don't think their beds are there. At the same time, they're going to be very wealthy. So it's this bizarre situation where the person's in a sweatshop, but they're making good money, um, which is something, you know, which just speaks to kind of the, the, the craziness of that country. Anyway, I put the suit on, um, to try it on the last day, and my guide's like, oh, you look good. That quote verbatim, uh, because the great leader— obviously I'm dressed like the great leader. I'm, you know, the height of fashion, uh, in North Korea. So that's where that suit is from.

Yeah, like you look like him but you're not gonna hurt anybody. Like, that's like the best of both worlds. It's like, wow, well, that's amazing. That's, uh, so you guys, that was that, that suit that he's talking about. You're gonna see now again, Michael does show up. He Dress for Success in this clip. But I like what you're talking about here, and we only have not a lot of time, so I just want to kind of run through it. And Michael, if you can hit your mute again, that was the issue. Okay, thanks.

President Trump, in his second administration, the only thing he chose for was loyalty, right? And he's— if I don't think there's anyone left, maybe Stephen Miller. Like, I actually Googled it. I said, who from the first administration is around the second administration? There are 3 people. Every other bridge has been burned. Uh, the guy from Alabama, I forget, Jeff Sessions. You had Bannon is gone. You had Bill, uh, Bill, Bill or Bob Barry, always get their names confused. Omarosa. They all turned on each other, right? So he is very hypersensitive to people speaking out against him. And if JD Vance starts trying to do this thing, oh, I supported Trump, but I'm a different person. I don't think Trump with his ego is just going to be like, say what you throw me under the bus in order to get ahead. He's not gonna keep his mouth shut. Yeah. Can anyone imagine a scenario? So your point is this isn't gonna work? I don't, I, I don't know how. I think JD Vance is extremely smart. Yeah. In all the ways that don't matter in politics. So Trump, I think JD thinks Trump is in many ways a buffoon, and in many ways he is from the perspective of Yale or Harvard, although he obviously went to an Ivy League himself. But when it comes to politics itself, Trump is extremely savvy. It is the fact that you— that he took out, I think it was 14 Republican candidates 2016, that he took out Hillary Clinton, who's had the biggest juggernaut behind her in terms of culture of any candidate, certainly in my lifetime, maybe since FDR. Uh, that is no mean feat. The fact that you are— your approval ratings were in the toilet after January 6th, you're regarded as a complete pariah. During the midterms, most of the candidates, or all of them, that you endorsed who were in kind of, uh, uh, swing races, they all lost. To recapture the nomination and to recapture the presidency, this is something that's historically unprecedented and is a testament to, in many ways, his political acumen. I— he was the one who's like, let me go on the podcast circuit and put myself in front of that firing line for 3 hours at a time on Rogan. That was— and this guy's, again, no spring chicken. So I think JD thinks like Elon did, I'm gonna work with this guy, I'm gonna use him to further my agenda. But Trump is really, really crafty with stuff like that. And I think he's gonna be very sensitive to any of these machinations. And he's doing it very publicly. He's playing, uh, Vance against Rubio. There's all these articles about like, oh, Trump doesn't know which one to choose. And a lot of that's leaks. Hmm.

Interesting. Do you want to, um, add on to that at all? Do you see anything different since you were on there? And it's interesting about the loyalists because I was trying to think about it too.

Who—

Stephen Miller, yeah. Like, I can't think of who else is still there with him. Um, and a lot of them—

he's in a new round of firings now with the Secretary of the Navy is the latest one.

I think Grenell— Grenell is around. I was in the first term, but Grenell is not a big position in administration.

Didn't he bring someone back recently from the first term? And I don't know if he lasted, but one of the PR people or something.

But it's, it's certainly a small percentage.

Yeah, not a big— not a big player anyway. Um, so I, I wanted to hear that because I, I like, and I need sometimes to remember how crafty he is, how smart he is, you know, um, in turbulent times. I, I do need to remember that. Um, so on a positive note, let's do something positive for the end. So we know he's thoughtful, he's crafty, he's very consistent in his views and his policies for as long as I've ever known him, and I've been paying attention to him since like the mid-'90s. Um, so what do you think moving forward where we are in just 2 minutes, Michael? Honestly, just wrap up world for us if you can. Now you have more time than that, but yet, you know, what do you think moving forward that we could feel good about where we are and maybe a little bit about what to expect moving forward?

Um, I don't know what to expect. I do know that JD's up against it. Um, he's really trying to walk a couple of tightropes simultaneously. It's going to be very hard for him. I'm thinking about in 1990 when Thatcher, who's right behind me, was driven out of office by her own party, and her replacement— the British system is a little different than ours, but basically the equivalent of the Speaker of the House is who becomes the Prime Minister. So if like Pelosi was, you know, kicked off, it'd be like probably Steny Hoyer, who was the Majority Leader at the time. But point being, uh, um, it's when Thatcher was driven from Number 10, uh, the Prime Minister's Office, her replacement was John Major. Like she's still in Parliament. So he's trying to be Prime Minister and she's there on the floor, you know, being her huge personality. It really was a problem for him. So unless Trump is all in on JD, which I can easily see him doing, um, it's going to be tough. But even no matter what the situation is, I don't see how candidate— if JD got the nomination, which I don't think is necessarily a given, How is he not going to be overshadowed by Trump if they're, they're not on the same level? Trump is— whenever you think about him, his— the size of his personality is perhaps literally insane. So, and I, I, I was on, uh, um, Fox last May— sorry, last March or April, so right after the inauguration. And the monologue was, you know, uh, since the Democrats only stand for terrible things, they're never going to win anything again. And I'm like, guys, it's not even the end of the first quarter. You're having your victory lap. The Democratic Party— look this up— is the oldest political party still in existence on Earth. That doesn't happen by accident. They will do— and they've got 2 years to do A/B testing, figure out what works for them, what doesn't. I said, even in a, in a utopia scenario where Trump is the perfect president, there's going to be some situation that's out of his control that's going to go, go, go south. And that's the one they campaign on there. When you lose everything, it's all upside. And people are like, oh my God, the Democratic Party's approval rating's at 20%. You're not literally voting for the Democratic Party, you're voting for the candidate. Just like many people who despise the Republican Party, we're more than happy to vote for Donald Trump with an R next to his name. And a year later, what I said has been borne out. No one thinks the midterms are going to be this MAGA revolution. Um, I'm not saying this in a positive or negative way. I'm like, politics is cyclical. We also remember, I think most of us, in 2020, they ran the table on Trump. Uh, and, and it was kind of awful to watch. It's one of the reasons I'm in Austin now. Because of how COVID happened. So I don't know what it's going to look like in the future. I'm also very curious about 2028 because the Democrats do not have a good bench. So this is going to be a very interesting presidential race.

And certainly everything could change, but didn't Rubio say he wasn't going to run if Vance ran?

Yeah, but that was then.

If there's one thing, when I look at Marco Rubio, that's someone who speaks the truth.

Yeah, well, that, that was my other question I was going to make to you, was like Rubio had this like about-face, right? Like he, he was kind of the deep state guy when Trump took him out, and you know, little Rubio and all that stuff. And now he's like, you know, Trump's biggest fan, doing everything and talking MAGA all the time. But at least personally, I kind of am very skeptical of what is he going to be like in 2028 if he's running for president.

He might just be back to that deep state So I think the path for Rubio would be, so JD Vance is going to, I think it's pretty clear if he runs, you're going to have some, probably it's somewhat likely you could have some other Republican run, not with the intent to win, but when you, a lot of these people are like, how is, how is George Pataki running for president? George Pataki is not running for president. Literally, he gets, uh, he gets paid to campaign. He gets his name out there. You get book deals. And you're basically campaigning for a slot in the administration that does happen to win. That happens all the time. So it's very plausible that some Republican will run against Vance for the nomination, not thinking they're going to win, right? But thinking, great way to boost my brand. If they do well, which is kind of like a stalking horse kind of thing, then I can see a Rubio being like, oh, you know, or, or the, or if there's a bunch of them come in, then the gates might be wide open. Rubio's also young, you know, 2028 is going to be tough for the GOP, especially if there's a shellacking in the midterms. So he could perfectly be happy to wait 4 years and, and run in 2032. So, and also the donors don't like Vance, they like Rubio. Um, and that's a big deal because all that stuff costs a lot of money.

Yeah.

So I don't think 2028 is as set. If I had to bet money right now, I would bet that, that Vance is the nominee. But I'm not— I wouldn't bet a lot of money.

Okay, that's fair. Michael, thank you so, so much. There are so many other topics I would love to talk to you about here on the Scott Adams School, but we keep it to an hour and we appreciate you waking up early. Brutal. Maybe you could just get right back in bed.

I am.

Oh, good, good, good. So would you be willing to come back on with us one day?

Ask me when I'm awake.

Okay. All right. All right. I'll text you later. Okay. So listen, Owen, Marcella, you listen. Owen and Marcella and I thank you so much. And I know everybody watching this really, really enjoyed learning about you today. I feel like we gave a pretty good array of the different parts of Michael Malice, and I hope you guys are just as non-creepily obsessed as I am. I threw that in. That's the caveat. So, Michael, What was your favorite part of this interview today?

Um, I think my favorite part is that you pulled two clips like 8 years apart and I'm wearing the same clothes.

Valid. That's valid. All right, well, you are welcome, you guys. Thank you so much. Let's have a closing sip to Scott and go out there and be useful. Michael, thank you, thank you, thank you. Marcel and Owen, thank you so much, everybody. Um, closing sip to Scott Tschüss, Scott Adams. Bye, guys. Thanks, Michael. Good night.