Paani with People | Ep 1 | Dancing Through Development: Kanika Joshi

I have my flight in Another seven hours now, so I have time. Too long now. I thought of it at least a year and a half ago.

I have my pani ready also.

Wonderful. I was actually going to tell you because I also got pani.

Yeah.

And I know that we have a coffee pending for way too long now. But we'll do it at some point.

It's funny that we've actually met on the tube rather than in for coffee.

Honestly, I've been very slumped all of those— these past few months, uh, but I'm finally getting back to my energy. And a reason why I'm doing this podcast is also because I want to be able to talk to people again.

Oh, lovely.

So it's— that is my selfish reason. And the other reason, which is to tell people is that I want to, um, listen to people's stories, getting to know someone and having a conversation as 2 people do. Um, and then if anyone else wants to listen, I know that this is what I care about, talking to people. And if that means that it's just me and you talking, that also I'm happy with.

That's lovely. That's really, really nice. I mean, I'm a talker and I have— I totally support This entire thought process, because I feel that we often cross paths with human beings but never really talk properly or hold a conversation. So kudos to you, and hopefully this does really well, uh, in terms of you talk to many more people this year.

Yeah, yes, that is the hope. What I'm trying to do is just get into it casually, start a conversation, and see where it goes. So you're officially the first guest. There's no set criteria for choosing people. We've been connected for a while and I feel like you, you'd be a really interesting person to talk to. I just want to know firstly what you do and why you do what you do.

Wow, uh, that's such a broad question, so I will give you a very broad answer indeed. So, uh, I do a lot of things, and amongst everything that I do, I think one thing that I feel most connected about is doing something with a mission. Like, I have a always have been like pretty purpose-driven and, uh, have been in the international development sector for about 10 years. Currently what I do is I work with this organization called Open Data Institute. It's an NGO and it basically is a nonprofit operating out of UK but working globally, and I lead their impact strategy. So that's one of the many things that I do currently. I also am like an avid dancer. I love dancing, so I go like— I've been pretty much in touch with all my hobbies still because I feel that we often get constrained into just doing one thing, but I totally am like a next level advocate of multi-potentiality. I'm like, you can do everything that you want in one life, etc. So I continue dancing. I continue dancing. I used to dance sometimes, so I do Afro grooves and contemporary now. I also am like a plant mom to many of these plants that I have in the house, so I water them. It's a full-time job, yes, to keep them alive. Yeah, they have been alive for a while. I think it's the good air quality in UK that's keeping them alive now, because all my plants in India used to die. But yeah, that's pretty much what I do right now. Why I do it is because, I mean, you have to do something while you're here. So that's like the pretty basic reason why I do something. But the other thing is that I truly, truly, truly feel very passionate about like the things that I do. I think the people that I did my master's in development practice with 8 years back, like we all graduated, I feel all of us had like an equal kind of ambition and passion with which we graduated. And I see with how tough situations have gotten for people politically, personally, and like in general in the planet. currently, whatever is happening. I think many people have— their optimism has died out currently, which I don't blame them for because, I mean, the situation is pretty dire in many, many aspects. But I feel I'm still like an incurable optimist. I'm still passionate about the things that I want to do. I feel that, yeah, the domino effect of hopelessness hasn't got to me yet. It does in bits and pieces, but yeah, that's why I do what I do because I truly think that there are some amazing people out there who want to do things for the better. And I just want to like be in touch with them and do things like them in the future.

That sounds great. I've been in the development sector as well for a while now. And one thing that I keep finding myself asking is I, I know that this is what it is for, but there's also so less space to— like, when I entered the sector, I knew that I could possibly change the world. And the more I've been in here, I feel like, one, I question if I even have the capacity or can ever get that capacity. And 2, if the structural systemic processes, would they ever allow someone who wants to change the world to do it? And I think that's, that's what my biggest fear of being in the development sector is, that people spend all of their lives trying to do something good, and I don't want to question if I did. How do you feel about that?

Yeah, I mean, 100% agree with your analysis of how things are and how systems are, etc. But I do feel that there are— there is this radical movement of changemakers that's like coming with few people, like several feminists I know who are around who are trying to like come up with alternative systems. And it's difficult. Like I've worked with a feminist organization before ODI. I was like with an Ethiopian Australian-based social enterprise. They used to do some amazing work. They had like in our contracts it was written that you were a feminist. Like they were like really amazing, but they also operated in a structure where even though they were super radical in wanting to change and come up with an alternate mechanism of like how things can be, they still have to comply to like a structure that already exists. You can't start breaking everything down. So I think it, it needs to be like a one-step-at-a-time approach. You can't change the world. Yes, I have also been in sync with reality on that, but what you can do is do things in small pockets where you do make a difference. So like that kind of an organization, and Cluedo Aid, the one I'm talking about, that did make a difference in many places. I also like currently work with a charity apart from my full-time job, which is called One World Together. It's based in Manchester, and they're also like fed up of how the aid system works in general, where as soon as aid stops the projects in an organization that are happening on the grassroots level, they stop and they don't want to do that. So they're also trying to come up with an alternate structure of funding mechanism which is citizen-led, where you don't have to pay a lot but you have to just be committed, probably give £1 a month. But that on a larger scale, when people— when many people join in, becomes a movement which can then be kind of a solidarity fund to let organizations continue. So I feel I have I have been like really lucky to kind of see those changes in small pockets and people really trying to bring about those changes, which keeps me hopeful, I think, sometimes. But of course, it's like, I mean, I'm saying this from the optimist side that I usually speak of, but yes, it's difficult. It's a job which is a thankless job. It's a place where you become this unsung person influencer where you are only like doing things but only your cohort and the small pocket where you can do things knows of. And that's why like I think I never used to think of like my next tenure trajectory as I want power and influence, but I feel that in the last few years seeing, having like being in like board level rooms or like in director level positions, I've noticed actually you need influence and power. That's probably how you can come up with these macro changes and macro influences. But yeah, currently, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if many people in those roles and positions are like spineless or do not take the right decisions. So yeah, I mean, I totally agree, but I think starting small is nice and I'm seeing that. But yeah, having power and influence, and I think anyone can have that power and influence, and it's like a long game. So you have to really be in the sector for a long time, like spend a decade, 2 decades, and then get to these positions. But I don't think it's impossible. I've seen some people who reach there and who do not come from a position of privilege. So yeah, that's, that's my initial thoughts on it.

My major problem with the development sector is that people are thought of in terms of numbers. And there's always the objectives, the outcomes that you have to achieve, especially being an employee. So I feel like even though work is being done for the underprivileged, there's lots of underlying privilege in it that is masking what we might really want to do.

Yeah, that's a really complicated one. And yeah, there are a few things in which like terminology-wise, I'm like, I want to like one be like development sector, for example, should not be for the underprivileged. It's actually for quite a lot of things. There are a lot of degrowth-related conversations, there are a lot of decolonization-related conversations. The ways in which, for example, the energy sector runs right now, it's actually not for the underprivileged, right? It's actually like the development sector in those cases is striving to probably work with the most powerful billionaires or like millionaires who have who are holding currently a lot of power and probably not taking over the renewable energy agenda that well. So I think there are many target segments in the development sector in general, not just the underprivileged. So that's like one thought that I had. The other thing that I'm thinking of is, yes, I think there is a lot of privilege and underlying privilege, a lot of white savior complex, a lot of like upper caste politics that happens in many of these, like from an Indian and then from a global perspective that happens. And that's where, like, for me, being in the sector, positionality, like understanding positionality and intersectionality related discourses and conversations has been very helpful, not only from a theoretical perspective, but from a rolling out of work perspective, like really knowing like where do you have to walk loud and where you should be tiptoeing, like. by ensuring that people who the work is supposed to be done for are actually leading conversations rather than people in power or with privilege just always holding the space, which does happen. So I'm not saying that that does not happen, but that shouldn't be happening. And I am seeing like in smaller segments, like the 2 organizations I spoke about who are coming up with alternative mechanisms, they don't do that. They try to ensure that if they're youth inclusion oriented, then young people are leading the voice, not a white old person. And another organization where if they have a project on like, let's say, women economic empowerment happening in Ethiopia, then actually an Ethiopian feminist is leading it, not someone who's flying from like a privileged place to Ethiopia and then saying, oh, I know all the answers. So I see that that's happening in smaller spaces. But in general, of course, like the ways in which power, money, works out. I mean, this is reminding me of a statement which an organization which got some money from McKinsey Scott during McKinsey Scott's philanthropic giveaways said. They're like, all money is dirty money. So what they really wanted to say was ideally they would never accept any Amazon giveaways, like in terms of money, because they feel that the way wage system and fair work, etc., happens, it's like really unethical and it's almost like at a criminal level of negligence. But they got a big grant from her and they were like, they accepted it and they changed it, etc. But they could put out a statement saying that all money is dirty money and then they were like, but if we don't take this, actually our organization cannot sustain itself. So I mean, so yeah, so that's why like I have so many thoughts right now which I cannot coherently put, but I feel it's a very complicated system and as long as people are advocating for and ensuring running from a principle standpoint where people with lived experiences and cultural competencies are actually leading conversations versus other people overshadowing and hoarding it, the solutions are being like people-driven and like bottom-up rather than top-down. Where as an impact professional, yes, the numbers bit is like starting with your first point, is a very sad reality in which the sector currently plays out, right? So just like, how can you ensure qualitative methods or case studies or anecdotes or testimonials are actually equally valued is something that I think you can advocate for in any organization. And that's where I think people in leadership positions, if they understand the value of these principles and then run an organization based on those, I think change can happen. Again, like in smaller pockets, you cannot change all organizations at once and many of these conversations at international level probably are yes policy-driven but policy drives a lot of the implementation that happens. So even at that level we do need like all of these things in place. When I moved to UK for example I think around 2 years back, this is in April not 2 years back, April of like 2 years back. ActionAid had a report where— not only ActionAid, actually many aid organizations here had like a report which came out about the discrimination, the racism, the malpractice around funding that happens in the sector. And then ActionAid had like a total restructure because even though they do wonderful work on the ground, actually their entire top leadership level was white and not very diverse, etc. And many people resigned, many new people were hired, etc., etc. But I mean, again, like looking at all of these things from a very solution-oriented perspective and also ensuring at the same time that people are not only put in positions of power as a token, right? Because we have seen that someone can be brown, lead a country and still not say the right things or be very immigration inclusive and other things, right? So anyone in position of power also needs to have like the right principles that they are grounded by. So I agree to your thought process in essence, but there are like, I think, a lot of nuances that I'm like, oh, it's a tough reality, but you have to find ways to navigate against it. Otherwise, we're basically saying that things are happening and we can do nothing about it.

No, I get it. There's, there's definitely lots of good work happening and people trying to do more, get in positions of power, as you said. Um, but now I want to know more about you.

Yeah.

Um, so you said you moved to the UK in April of 2021 or '22?

Yeah, I think I'm— that's 2024, so 3, 2, 2022 actually.

Yeah. And why did you move? For the job, or did Something else?

Yeah, so I was that time working with the Ethiopian organization and I was based in Chicago for a while and I wanted to like be based more centrally, like geographically, and I was like, okay, like London seems like a great place to be in and that's why like I moved here with my partner and we decided to like be based out of here. Initially like I was arguing with him when he was like, are you sure you want to continue working with this feminist organization, which of course paid like as at a global level. It was Ethiopia-based, etc. And I was like, yes, I don't care about the money, so I will move to UK with my Ethiopian-based, India-based salaries. And then I started paying the rent and I was like, I care about the money. Because I realized that as a young person you really need to save, and I wasn't able to save. I was literally like, all my money was going in the house rent. So, so that's when I started to look out for UK. Based opportunities. I applied— I think I started casually browsing in May, um, and I think in August I had 4 offers and I took one of them, which was ODI. One of my biggest criteria was because they seemed like they were really valuing like my existence, uh, and my expertise. And I was like, okay, I'm in a stage of my career where that matters quite a lot. And of course it was a UK-based salary, so I was like, I'll be able to pay my rent. And also be able to save. So that's what made me move to London and then made me move to ODI, I guess.

And when did you leave India?

Uh, so I left India in 2021, early 2021. Uh, one year I was in Chicago, and then I was— during the pandemic, basically, I think I moved to the— moved to Chicago. And before the pandemic, I was in Kenya. Uh, for a project. So I was like, okay, it's time to be in India and spend quite a lot, uh, I think 8 months of the pandemic in India. And then I was like, okay, time to move out.

And where are you from in India?

So I grew up in Noida, so Delhi NCR. And, uh, I have like roots in the foothills of Himalaya. So Uttarakhand is where my family is from, and we used to go and visit every like Every winter, summer, and we also have like some root, like not roots as in from my paternal side, but like one of my paternal uncle married someone from Himachal. So we've spent a lot of time in Himachal as well. So I do not feel cold, and I boast quite a lot about being Pahari because I'm like, मुझे ठंड नहीं लग रही है kind of a thing.

Is that?

Oh, it's Pauri Garwal. So it's like a place. Have you been there? Oh really, that's so cool.

Yeah, and we— I grew up in Dehradun, uh, a couple of my years, so we used to go to Rishikesh, Haridwar.

Oh God, God, God.

Yeah, been around, but I still feel—

that's nice. You still feel cold? Oh damn, I was the inevitable one.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't feel cold at all. And like, people, people laugh at me because it's not that I spent like a lot of time in the hills, but I'm like, maybe it's genetic.

Possibly. But today is much better. For the last 2-3 days, it was crazy.

And I was out and thriving.

So your schooling, college, all was from Delhi?

Yeah, so it's, it's funny. I've actually like Until my 10th grade, I was in Somerville School, which is like literally this much from my house. And then I went to Modern Barakhamba for my high school, which was like a little further to CP. And then I went for my undergrad in Delhi University, Gargi College, which is a little more further. And then for my master's, I went to TERI, the Energy Resources Bureau, in Vasankot. So a little more further, but my entire education has been in Delhi NCR. And then I moved to Bangalore for work, basically.

Wow, Gargi College, I've had— I have so many fond memories with.

Oh, lovely. Many men I know do have fond memories of Gargi College and KNC because I think it has a lot of, uh, people— like, it's a girls' college, but many co-ed instances.

The amount of time that I spent outside and inside Gargi is insane.

Oh, that's amazing. Were you in Delhi University as well?

Yeah, I was in Deol Singh Evening College.

Nice, nice, nice.

Yeah, I studied literature. What did you study?

So I studied B.Com Honors, but I was actually an extracurricular activity quota student, so I did not get the marks for doing B.Com Honors. But I used to dance and I was a dancer, so I got in through dance. And I've pretty much literally 3 years of college I've danced. Like, that's what I've done. Uh, when I graduated, I had no— till then, up until my undergrad, I had no academic inclinations at all, ever. And when I was graduating, like, 2 of my super closest friends, uh, Jay and Abu, like, we were having a chat and they were asking me, like, do you even know what debit credit means? And I did B.Com Honors, so of course, like, we had classes in business studies, tax, accounts, all of this. I was like, actually, I don't. So this is me till undergrad, just dancing and just wanted to like make a career in dance. And then I got like a really bad injury in my left hip socket because of which I could not continue and pursue dancing like full time. And I only applied for one college to do my master's because this seemed like an interesting one. Sustainable development practice. I was like, seems interesting. What is it? I got in after a round of interviews. I had applied to 2 courses, uh, economics and this one at Terry. And economics I did not get through, and I blanked out during the interview where they asked me an economic-based question. I was like, I actually don't know. And the— I remember, and the VP was sitting there. I still remember now. I have a very good relationship with him, but I think he just like had— so this was his pen. As soon as I respond— gave my first answer, he knew that I'm not getting selected. He shut his pen down and he was like, this is a waste of time. I— he did not say it, but that's what he did. Eventually, when through the MAS DP course, I was like, um, I got like a 10-pointer in my 4th semester. I became very academically inclined. I loved the course that I did. I was like, oh my God, such kind of studies exist. I had no overview of it and danced a lot in university, so the VP eventually started liking me. But I remember that kind of a thing also happened. But yes, after that, like, I think it's been 10 years. It will be 10 years this July for me taking this development sector seriously. And I think I used to initially tell people I'm double dating, like I'm doing dance and development, but now it's pretty much like very committed to development. So let's see till when does this last. I also have my emotional breakdowns when I'm like, totally breaking down and I'm like, fuck this shit, I can't do this anymore. And then I'm like, maybe I should start a career in modeling or like do something like pottery, things that I've never done, uh, etc. But most of the days I'm positive and I'm like, yeah, let's, let's continue doing the things that we're doing.

One has enough time to do everything in life.

That's true.

From not knowing debit credit to now writing research papers.

Yeah, yeah, I can show you, uh, one of the books that came out as well. Ah, okay, so this is it. This is with the feminist organization that I was working with. Um, I am like in the second chapter.

Oh wow.

But yeah, it's— it was like really good to hold it. Uh, but it's also, you know, really interesting. I was I think even after joining the development sector, what I became very interested in was implementation. So I always said that I love action research, I like implementation. I, I think I was a good project manager, I've been a good research manager. I don't think I'm a good like researcher, but it's interesting when people place faith on you. Like I was, when I was with this organization, the CEO, uh, Christy Ruxa, She basically one day WhatsApped me, there's this book and you're leading a chapter on it. Like, what? Like, why do you think I will be able to? But like, she really trusted me with it, and that meant like 2 years of hard work because we got a lot of criticism for the chapter, a lot of like back and forth, etc. But eventually when it got published and like we had some co-authors, a lot of our colleagues are chapters in this book, like have chapters in this book. So I don't know, like sometimes I feel like having leaders who care and who are able to like, I don't know, disrupt, disrupt in weird ways. Like she didn't have to trust a brown woman from India who is early in her career at all, but she did. She really trusted me quite, quite much. So sometimes I feel that even finding those people who like trust in you, have faith in you, in the sector is important. But again, it's all like a— yeah, it's a numbers game. I think you meet many people who wouldn't, and then you meet someone who does.

Yeah, of course. And I think it's spread across all sectors, and I'm a staunch advocate of believing in people. I feel when you start believing in people, people come through.

Deliver.

Yeah. And that's great. How does it feel to have your name on a book?

I think I felt very, very, very highly— like, I'll tell you my excitement levels. When she told me to write a book chapter, that day I was like, that was the highest energy level I've ever felt. And then I felt the same level of energy when we finally submitted and got like an email from the publisher that it's been accepted. Which happened after 2 years. I think when the book came, I did not open the package for like a day because I was like, I'll do it when the house is clean. And then the next day I cleaned the house, and then I did not— and I was like, I need to be showered and I need to clean the house. But the next day, like, my mom called and I was like, you know what, I don't care about the shower or cleaning the house. And I just opened it and I was like, yeah, this is it. And I think since then the happiness and excitement has only been when I see people getting excited.

Yeah.

So I think it's good, but I think it's like, I think, oh, I think happiness and sadness both are like transitory phases. They can happen anytime to anyone, etc. So I don't, I get too excited, but I don't get too sad usually when things happen. So I don't know, like—

Exactly opposite spectrum.

Opposite spectrum, lovely. Yeah, so it's a— I think what I'm learning these days is to try to balance both of my feelings because I— yeah, I mean, I think, uh, getting too excited is also not too great, like, because then you don't— like, I think staying consistent and balanced is like a really good feeling. But anyway, this is something that my cousin brother, like brother only actually, had told me in 10th grade that like there was— I don't know who's this quote from, but someone very famous— that success and failure are both orphans. Um, no, success has many fathers and failure is an orphan. That, uh, basically trying to tell me, because I think he always noticed that I was like this chirpy person when something good happens and he was like, oh damn, when something bad happens with her, she might not be able to take it. So, so just to like keep me grounded, he wrote me a letter where he wrote that amongst many other things which I fondly remember. But yeah, yeah, that, that kind of a feeling. So it was good, but it— I wasn't like very excited, to be honest. It was like just okay.

Yeah, I get it. I've been there. Um, I last year, last, last year, sometime a couple of years ago, I wrote a book on the successes of the Indian government and their schemes, analyzing the capacity that they've been able to achieve. There were around 80 schemes that we analyzed, and I haven't seen a copy of the book.

What?

And I think I did.

As a takeaway from this session, please do see it just for fun.

This time maybe when I go to India, I'll ask them to give me a copy. Mostly to give it to my mother because yeah, yeah, they're in chief. And I honestly, I feel very divided by having my name on things or just the activity, the experience of doing the thing. I feel like I haven't— I was so excited when I was in the process of doing it But once it was done, I haven't thought about it at all. I know that they've taken it to ministers and did a grand opening, and I was nowhere. Um, but now I'm in the process of writing my own book. It's a, it's a mix of fiction and my diary entries, and I wonder how I feel about that because I always wanted to be a writer.

Oh wow.

And I fear feeling the same way as I do about the other things that I complete, but we'll see.

I don't know if that's true for you as well, but things with me, like in terms of how I process things and how I see things, have really changed over time with me totally. Like the kind of reactions I have now are way different to what I would have like 4 years ahead. And that in itself is like, I don't know, a good kind of a reflection for me to just know that actually like my perspectives and my thoughts, etc., are always evolving and it's okay. To feel something new, or something that you would have had a different forecast feeling about.

Yeah.

Have to say something totally not related to our conversation, but actually, पानी is such a good thing. I mean, it's also hydrating me. I don't drink water a lot. I'm like, what is the most amount of water I've drank in a while?

Thanks. पानी is my favourite drink. I've had this affection for पानी. Where as long as I have water around me, I feel like I'm sorted.

Oh, lovely.

Yeah, it just, I feel like it, it, it breathes life into you and it does everything as well.

I think I have never had that feeling, but I mean, drinking water is good, but I don't drink it enough. So yeah, great. Maybe you're, maybe this is actually a social experiment to hydrate people around you.

Yeah, advocate for people, then I'll send you notifications. Are you the kind of person who has an app on their phone that rings every 2 hours?

I have been told, because I really drink less water, to download that app, but like, I just find it so dystopian that it starts like— it has a voice which basically is the water of like water flowing, and I was like, you should know how to drink your own water. Like, you should have this much in control. I don't have it in control, but I haven't downloaded the app, uh, yet.

No one I know who has the app drinks enough water.

Okay, cool. That's good to know. Yeah, maybe this is the way to now get people drinking water.

About your partner, tell me something about— tell me something about him.

Oh, so we've been together for 10 years, uh, a little more than 10 years now. He grew up in Uganda, uh, He was born in Meira and then grew up in Uganda, was there for like 14 years, and then moved to India when we met. And we were very young when we met, 19.

Yes.

And he's been— and ever since, like, we've— like, currently, of course, he's staying here. He works at Google. Uh, he also is pretty passionate about financial technology and financial payments and fintech in general. everything. We're pretty different people in terms of things that we are excited about. Like, uh, so he has a lot of knowledge around those things. You will usually see him scrolling on LinkedIn or checking stocks, things that I never do. Like LinkedIn, yes, maybe, but stocks, nah, no, uh, kind of a thing. So he is that. He cooks a lot. Uh, he's actually the designated cook of the house, so he, uh, cooks the food. I clean the house. That's our responsibility sharing. Um, he's kind, very kind, actually one of the kindest people I've met. As men, I think men are taught to be masculine, men are taught to be like very, I don't know, out there. He's not like that at all, which is what I really love about him. He, if he can, he can like break down over not— over losing his key, like the house key sometimes. So he's like open to his feelings, open to Being vulnerable, I guess. And yeah, that's pretty much, I think, in a nutshell. What else does he like that I can tell you? He reads a lot. Oh my God, I wish I could read like half of the number of books he reads. I buy a lot of books, but he reads a lot of them. Many of these books are the ones that I have bought, but he has read most. So I, I have a tendency of picking up a book and then reading it in half and then picking up another book and then reading it. So I don't finish books, but he actually can finish 3 to 4 books in a month. So he's like really fond of doing that. And I think what I really think is pretty cool about him is that he stayed in all— like, people only— people like me, like, I've been to 17 countries, but I've been there for work for like 20 days or 6 months at max. So that's been the duration usually. So I feel very global, uh, but he actually has stayed in those places for a long period of time. So he stayed in Uganda for 14 years, in India for 7 years, in US for 6 years, and now in UK. So he's pretty like— he's a third culture kid, which I think makes people, um, very, I don't know, empathetic about things because probably they've seen a lot of movements, they notice more, they're they're very like multicultural, so to say. Yeah, so that's what I like about him. But yeah, we've been together for a while, 10 years now, and 2 years back we even signed the documents to tell the government that we're together. And because all our family, like, while we were in the city magistrate signing the papers to tell the government that we're together, all our family was like, we need a party, we need a treat. So we actually threw a telling the government ceremony. They were like, this is a wedding reception. We're like, no, it's not. If we're throwing the party, we'll tell you what it is. And they're like, okay, cool. So the, uh, I don't know, whichever hotel we had booked, like Lee Meridian, I think that time they had— they were like really stunned. They're like, are you sure we should write telling them? Like, yeah, like we are throwing a telling the government service.

Yeah, yeah.

So I've been— I think I've been, uh, lucky to find someone with my intellectual mindset because many people don't, and, uh, it's tough to like actually meet in the middle and discuss things and live a life that you really want to live. We did meet in college, so I was in my third year. So that's another interesting thing that actually he met me when I wasn't in the development sector. He met me when I was a dancer. So I was in my third year college and he was in his fourth year, I think, doing his B.Tech. Uh, in Delhi. Uh, so that's when we met through like mutual friends and then started talking. It's like I hadn't dated anyone till then, so he was actually my first relationship— is my first relationship. And, uh, yeah, it was— I— the day he asked me out, I was so sure that I'll say no because I was like, I, I had this vision that I don't want to date anyone and I'll date someone at 27 because I was— I've always been like a very happy person. So it's It's never been a priority for me to date anyone, but when he asked me out, I knew he's asking me out, and I had totally planned to say no, but in the shriekiest voice possible, when he said— when he asked me out, I was like, yes! So we've been together since then.

Wow. Do you ever feel that you missed out on other experiences?

Oh, like love experiences? Love, sex.

Associations?

I don't think— I think it's about because I have a lot of girlfriends and we're pretty open about our sex life in general, so I know that I haven't missed out on much. They either have really bad experiences or experiences where they did not enjoy or did not orgasm, etc. So I mean, I haven't had any of those issues, so I don't think I've missed out on the sex bit. On experiences, I personally am a very, very, very loving person. So I actually think that you cannot only love one person, and that's how I've operated all my life. So I have actually loved many people all this while and have had really true, meaningful emotional connections with several people around me. So I don't think I've missed out on any experiences, or my relationship has necessarily blocked some other relationships at all. I do think that I've been able to have like really nice meaningful friendships, really nice experiences. I've solo traveled a lot for my work, which meant that I actually had like really amazing strangers turn into friends, or really some kind of experiences that I only— only I could have experienced. That's mostly because of like my— so I call myself an outgoing person, but my friends are like, no, you're an inward pulling, like you're not an outgoing person. You're an inward puller, you get people because I have this thing where I— if you're my friend, then you meet all the other people that I know. And even if you're like totally different to me, I will like find a way for you to feel comfortable around. So yeah, maybe, maybe I don't think I've missed out on any human experiences. I love humans. I mean, that's something that I have kind of been pretty vocal about because I have a lot of friends who hate people and they're like, oh my God, meeting people is such a such an exhausting thing, etc. That's not— people fill me up with energy. Like when I enter a room of 5 people, I feel really happy. When I enter a room of 1,000 people, this is my place. I love it. It doesn't matter if I don't know the people there. I think the more number of people that I can meet, the more stories I hear, the more, yeah, people I see, the nicer I feel, the more comfortable I feel. So I, yeah, I'm a people person, I guess, that way.

Have you ever taken the Myers-Briggs personality test?

What's that? I think I probably have, but what is it again?

It has things like ENFP, INFJ, those other personalities.

Okay.

There's a website, 16personalities.com.

Okay, I shall take it.

Yeah, when you find the time, do take it. It tells you a little about yourself. and your relationships that you might have with other personality types. So it's interesting. It's not, it's not spiritual, it's just a— yeah, a test.

That's fun. I had taken a leadership test once in which they, uh, ranked everyone on 20 leadership characteristics. The first, second, third were like very understandable. I was like, yeah, of course, like I'm great at this there. And then I was like, let's check the ranking that I'm worst at. And it was sense of humor. And yes, I am not a humorous person. I do not like stand-up comedy. I hate when people punch down. I, uh, I usually do not take jokes very casually. I'm like, this is not a good joke. I can— I have low levels of tolerance for jokes. So yeah, my sense of humor is probably low. So I'll be interested to see the personality test also telling me something about my poor sense of humor.

Yeah, you should, you should. And I, I love taking all of these tests. Uh, I take personality tests, my love languages, autism test, any test that I can. The way that I've grown up, I've always grown up wanting to be perfect, ideal. And in some ways, I've just thought of anything that holds me back as something that I will either not recognize, acknowledge, and if I don't acknowledge I can dump it behind and move on.

Let me tell you, I don't know how much you've lacked because of this, but well, I was pretty similar a few years back, and then I got a very big emotional breakdown, and I was like, oh shit, I have to accept all the things that are pulling me back as well. So I think, yeah, I think it's a time phase kind of a thing as well, but I don't— I think many people who I know and think are super perfect are also super aware of like things that are holding them back. Um, yeah, yeah. And where did you grow up actually? You said you were in DU, but I actually did not ask.

Yeah, so my dad's in a government job, which meant that we kept shifting places.

Okay, nice.

I was born in Jaipur, and then I was sent to my grandparents', my nani's place in Bihar, which is where we are from, my parents are from. I stayed there for 2 years or so until— and then my dad got this government job, and then I came back. And since then we've been moving throughout. So I stayed in Dehradun, we came to Delhi. My grandparents, my dadadadi, stay in Meerut, so we've been in Meerut quite a lot. But the last several years have been in Delhi. Now my parents stay in Bhopal, my brother stays in Ahmedabad, so I've just been all over the place. But I feel like the idea of it, of me being not, not having a sense of what home is has enabled me to put that idea in people and multiple places. So I feel I, I never feel a lack of home, or I feel a lack of home constantly.

Oh wow. And how was your experience in UK?

Uh, so I came in September of '21. um, to study my master's at UCL. I studied an MPA in Innovation Public Policy. It was a very interesting course. Um, I knew that this is the course that if I had to do one course, this is the one that I have to do in life. But it was very difficult.

I know, I know.

People who have already done great things in life, and now I'm sitting in, in a room in a tutorial Talking as if I know what I mean. It was it was very interesting. I've learned quite a lot, and honestly, I feel I love India too much to be away from it for too long. And maybe if not even India, then at least Delhi. Because I keep going back to Delhi every three months. If I'm not in Delhi every three months, I start. So I don't know what's in the future. But right now I manage a well-being network here in Hounslow. I try to help people who feel lonely and isolated and get them to do more creative fun activities. You should come there. It's an open place for anyone to engage in different activities. We also do dance sessions actually, if you want to take dance sessions.

Fancy. Perfect. You should have like a tool and resources thing that you send after this. I'm already interested to get the 16 personality test and this Hanslow cool thing that you're doing.

And I'll also send you the love language test.

The love language test, yes please.

So there are 5 love languages. Um, there's gifting, um, physical touch, quality time, words of reassurance, and there's one more that I'm forgetting. But essentially everyone's got all 5 of these, but they are different proportions. So yeah, if you take it with your, with your partner—

I mean, you've been together 10 years, so I'm sure we've probably figured out our love language. But yeah, why not, why not find more things about, uh, each other?

Yeah. And about that, do you, do you believe in the concept of marriage or weddings?

No, I don't at all. Uh, I did it because of the ease our visa processes, for traveling together, uh, and yeah, it was majorly that kind of a decision. Otherwise, I think I could have just like lived in as well.

So was telling the government your ceremony?

Yeah, that was our— telling the government was our ceremony. And we did like tell the government through the Special Marriage Act, which, uh, which takes like a 30— it's a more complicated one where you have to like first go to the city magistrate office, file an intention— intent to be together with someone, and then for 30 days you have to like wait until someone gets back or like says that we object, or— and publish it in the newspaper, and then come with 3 witnesses after 30 days to say that you did it, that yes, you are basically together now. So that was our, our idea of it, but I could have totally not done it as well. It was majorly because we wanted to travel together, start building a life, and like easily travel, I guess.

Nice. We're almost at an hour now, so I wouldn't take a lot of your time, but I want to know before we go, is there a fear that That's been constant with you that you would like to not have?

A fear of constantly wanting to be happy. I think I've had a very psychologically safe childhood, which has meant that I've mostly operated in a very like happy kind of a zone. But I think as we adult, there are multiple experiences that you have. There are many things that are happening outside of your control, like politically or like in society, etc. that you cannot have full control of. But I think the— because I always tend to compare things with my like psychological safe childhood, I tend to like have a fear that, oh my God, what if I'm not happy ever? But it's not like— I don't think it's bad to be upset. I don't think it's bad to be angry. I don't think it's bad to be fearful. I don't think it's bad to be sad as well. So I think that's one thing that I want to get rid of, and I'm actually trying to actively work on it as well by being more in sync with reality, by, uh, by being okay or cutting myself some slack, not being harsh on me if I'm not operating at a super heavy happy level sometimes. So yeah, that's definitely a fear I would like to get rid of.

I hope you do in your own time.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and if you had to give one advice to me, anything, uh, what would that be?

Oh, anything?

Yeah.

Okay, I'll actually pass over almost like a legacy advice that I had gotten from my mentor that I tell everyone. I think it was a really good one, kept me really, uh, helped me really progress in my career and life. I think she said, always ensure that your name is bigger than the organization you work with, and always ensure that your work is bigger than your name. And oh my God, it has been such beautiful advice that I've had because I think it's like mutually benefiting then for you and the organization and Surroundings and society, etc. But it's always helped me like pull through whenever I've had like questions around anything. Like it's been this one thing that I keep coming back to. It was Palak. She was like a person I worked with in Odisha. She's like really amazing. She was a senior and yeah, she said this one thing very early on in my career, but it really helped me. So I would tell you that as well.

Thank you. That, that does sound really interesting. I haven't heard anyone say that before. But yeah, it's, it's very interesting thought, especially because, as you said, it reinforces the work for the organization as well. Very interesting. So while I frame the next question, why don't you take a sip of water? And If you're to die soon, um, and you've been told that you will die, there's one thing that you can have happen to you. What would that one thing be that hasn't happened to you yet, and you'd want that one thing to happen, and then you can die?

Wow. Uh, wow. Um, maybe a big philanthropist or a big UN organization telling me that I'm their director. Yeah, and then I can die. Like, as soon as Bill Gates comes to me or Antonio comes to me and they're like, you're heading BMGF now, or you're heading UN now, I think that will be like a good I can die after that. But this is a good morbid exercise. Uh, but yeah, I think I should think of this one in more detail. It's a really tough one to respond to in a minute. But yeah, I mean, this is what was my first thought. I think I would be happy dying if that happens.

Okay, hopefully you get to live long to be that director and do both and just die right after you.

Oh, that's a good question.

Thank you. We're almost at the end now. I mean, if, if this conversation— if any conversation has an end, I think we have to deliberately stop a conversation, otherwise I can continue. Lovely. Yeah, and an hour is anyway so less, um, getting to know someone. Um, But if I have to, I, I notice— so I follow you as well, and I notice your LinkedIn personality and your Instagram personality being very different from each other.

Yeah.

And, uh, obviously because I'm a stranger, I, I don't know how that works, but I see that you've recently got into Reels, and I see you're really enjoying it. They look great, by the way. Yeah, what makes you want to make reels?

Storytelling, actually. That's it. Like, I love storytelling, and sometimes, like, in my emotional breakdowns— actually, I should start doing these things even without emotional breakdowns, but I feel I've always thought that I should probably do a video-making course. I love telling, communicating stories through, like, videos or immediate snappy ways. I think I would really enjoy that. And reels is like the easiest way in which I have the power to tell a— communicate a story. And I've always like— I am very proud of all the bad quality reels that I post because like somehow they do justice to the story that I want to tell. But I want to have like better quality reels. So maybe I should just like invest in a course. do some professional development around that. And on— so that's like the Reels bit. And on the personality, uh, is different on Insta and LinkedIn, it's a really, really good observation. And I think there's something on personal branding that I actually actively do. It's not something that happens by chance.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's a— it's, it's something that I realized a few years back that actually you are the only one who can like take charge of your personal branding. Yes, people can think anything about you, but actually you can control what they think about you as well, uh, in, in certain ways. And this is probably through the amazing Leadership for Coaching for Leaders podcast that I listen to, which is by Dave Stivokiak. Love it, highly recommend it, changed my 2023 totally. But, uh, there was like a podcast on personal branding there, which I was like, oh yes, like where they suggested something really simple. It was almost like, what do you think your personal brand is like? How do you want to be remembered versus what people around you actually think right now? And if there's a gap, one, if you like what other people are thinking about you, then it's okay. Maybe it's a strength that, that's automatically happening. But if it's not happening, then what, how can you fill that gap actively? And yeah, it's a, I think, branding kind of a thing that I look, look into, and it's actually reaped me a lot of benefits also, which we can get to some other day.

Yeah, yeah, sure. No, I'd love to— when I'm back, I'd love to meet in person as well. Yeah, continue these conversations anyway, regardless of the podcast.

Do you know when you're back?

Uh, on the 5th or 6th of February, so not too long.

Perfect. Cool, cool, cool. So I'll see you in Feb then. Yeah, Feb, March maybe. Yeah, ideally soon.

Um, one last question. Uh, actually 2 questions. Okay, here's the recommendation so we can get to it. But, uh, as you said about people, what you would be remembered by— if you could choose what you'd be remembered by, um, what would that be? let's say 3 different things that people could remember you by?

I think I'm long— like, I'm really far away from people remembering me from that, but I can still get to what I want to be remembered as. I want to be remembered as someone who actively advocated for gender equality in many shapes and forms and added value to those discussions. I wanted to be— I want to be remembered as someone who fully lived life, did everything that she wanted to, was available in most humane ways in any, any, any surrounding. And I wanted to be— I want to be remembered as someone who's courageous, like, did not fear repercussions, was not politically restricted, was opinionated, had her own voice, and walked loud when she could, uh, even though she was shaking and trembling and had high temperature, but like said what she really wanted to rather them stay shut.

Oh, that's, that's so inspiring.

Yeah, but the last one and the first one, I think I'm really far from getting to. But yeah, that's— those are my next trajectories. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm sure you, because you're on the way already, some people already think of you as that. And, uh, yeah, yeah, right now if 4 people think of me as that, Hopefully four thousand would is the yeah is the aim one person at a time yeah yeah one person at a time now to the recommendation so it doesn't have to be anyone from your sector it could be literally it could be a child I don't know how child privacy laws that's tangent I don't want to get into but it could be any person. who you feel would make a great conversation with. Um, and, uh, I should have ideally done this sooner because then I could put this segment in the podcast itself. You could say their name.

Yeah.

And then we could move to them. But now let me see if they want to do it in the first place.

Right.

But yeah, any person that you'd recommend I talk to?

I have 2 people who are coming to my mind, but I'll also have to check in with them. first.

Yeah, sure.

Uh, and actually 3 people. So one is, uh, actually top 3 people on my Insta. So one is Mazin, who's like a close friend. I met him in China. He's really amazing, is a filmmaker, content creator from Sudan. Has a lot of— How do you spell his name? Mazin. M-A-Z-I-N. He's really cool. I like him. He might be interested to get on a chat, but I can check in with him because he probably does not do any pro bono timings now. But I can check him because he's applying for jobs. Then the second person I'm thinking of is Huma. She is British Pakistani, really amazing. She's a psychologist. I think if she has the time, she would love to get on a chat. She is like a super fierce feminist and a really amazing person that I know. she could— yeah, she might be interested in. And then the third person I can think of, not at all related to our sector, is Nicole, but I'll have to check in with her as well. She actually stays close to me, is a nutritionist, lost 45 kgs during the pandemic, and is pretty cool. Like, I really like her as a friend, and yeah, she might— she's a very like smart person in general. So she might want to get on a chat too. But yeah, I'm thinking of them right now, but might have to check in with all 3 of them before I connect you.

Yeah. So how, how I've decided it will work is you connect me with one person and then that person connects me with someone else and then that person connects me with someone else. So yeah, think, think about it. And do talk to these people, and if they are willing to get on a call, then we can set it up.

Cool, cool.

Yeah, it's been so good talking to you.

Likewise, and have a good flight. I don't— I can't believe you did this today, but on a safe journey, and see you when you're back in London.

Before we leave, we'll chug this water.

Yeah, whatever is left of it. Okay. Oh, clearly I was talking.

And then I shall see you soon.

Cool. See you soon and take care. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye.