How do you survive a boss who's a bully? How do you prepare for a difficult conversation? Communication expert Mimi Donaldson is here to help!

Hello everyone and welcome to the Better Life Better Business podcast presented by The Speakers Group. I'm Shawn Ellis, founder of The Speakers Group, and today our special guest is Mimi Donaldson. If you've ever had a boss who's been a bully, or if you are a boss and you want to boost your employee engagement levels, then you're in the right place. For over 20 years, Mimi's been captivating audiences from the Fortune 100 to the just plain fortunate, in her words, and she's shared the stage with prominent keynote speakers like General Colin Powell, Katie Couric, and Maya Angelou, and many more. She's also the author of numerous books including Negotiating for Dummies, Bless Your Stress, and most recently, Necessary Roughness: New Rules for the Contact Sport Of Life, and I love that title. Before starting her own consulting business, Mimi spent 10 years as a human resources trainer at Northrop Aircraft, Rockwell International, and Walt Disney Productions. You can find her online at mimidonaldson.com. And Mimi, welcome and thank you for being here today.

Oh, thank you, Shawn Ellis. It's a pleasure.

Well, is there anything else you want to add to that introduction, any highlights that I missed there?

No, that was great.

Okay, good, good. I just want to make sure that I introduce you well to our audience. Well, let's dive into the questions then. And starting out here, I know that your expertise, you can help both the employees and also managers and leaders, and we'll talk about both sides today. But let's start with the— on the employee side. In these times that we live in today, you know, with unemployment up in the 8s, 8 to 9.5% range these days. A lot of people, a lot of us, we feel like, you know, that we've got to stay in our present job because there's, you know, there's no way out. There are no other options, even if the boss is, you know, is a bully, but people stay there. So as a past human resources professional, what is your advice for someone who's in that position right now?

Wow, that's really interesting. Because I think bosses are getting away with more now. The job market is really tough. But I always say, you know, I've worked for a lot of stern bosses, and there's a difference between a tough boss and a bully. But my experience tells me you have to treat them as if they're merely a tough boss, because if you treat them like a bully or even if you— worse, if you talk about them with other people, it'll come back to bite you. So what you want to do is treat them as if they're a tough boss and I have some tips. First of all, I always say check your self-esteem. Check your own self-esteem. If the boss isn't the only one who intimidates you, You may not find a better boss. This could be you. And so I always joke, this could take years of therapy or you could try the other 4 tips. The second thing I say is find a sympathy buddy, a buddy who shares your pain but doesn't work where you work. You don't want to be badmouthing your boss to someone who works in the next department because, you know, gossip is really rampant and you never know who is going back to whom. I always say find a sympathy buddy outside of your work, somebody you want to just dump all the terrible things. But then—

I like that.

A third tip, yeah, is to find a mentor buddy. This is somebody who successfully handles bullies and who likes you. And who you can trust to give you good advice because you can't know everything and you're really close to the situation. And then the fourth thing I always say is when dealing with the bully as far as— and in dealing with anyone else, you have to find out what's on their test. And this is a famous story of mine because people call me a motivational speaker. But I really think people don't motivate other people. You have to motivate yourself. So I always say there's only one thing I know about motivation, and that's that it started in third grade when you were 8. Because when you were there in the classroom and you were bored to death, you were falling asleep, there was always this little obnoxious kid in the back row, and they always stood up without being called on and said, screamed, "Hey teacher, is this on the test?" And we all just were so embarrassed. We couldn't even have direct eye contact, but we listened very closely to the answer because if the teacher said, "No, this is something interesting I want you all to remember," what was your response? You fell back to sleep. It was like not on your test. But if the teacher said, yes, this will be on the test, then you went, oh, can I borrow a pencil? What was that again? And you wrote it down. So here's my jaded view of humans is that nobody does anything unless they perceive it's on their test. So you have to find out what's on the boss test and usually it's they have a big ego. They want to be able to share their wisdom and experience. And if you respond positively and if you can find something to admire, you will get along much better with the egotistical boss. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah. That's a good way to look at it.

Yeah, usually bullies have a huge overinflated ego and you have to— I mean, they're called the boss. So find something to admire. There's something there. You know, you may have to really look hard, but there's something. And then my last tip is always the best way to change somebody's behavior is not lecturing them, and certainly you cannot lecture the boss. But the only way you change behavior is to model it. So you have to work on being the happiest person in the room, even when you're not. When the boss is a bully, you have to act caring and sensitive and human, and then they get to see that. And if they don't model it back, then it might be time to dust off the old resume.

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because those are some great tips, and I think that can solve a lot of situations. In a case where, you know, where it really is a a bad situation. How do you confront a boss, or do you? Maybe you just dust off the resume. But I know communication is an area of specialty for you, and especially difficult conversations, which can happen in both directions. But any tips for how to know where that line is and how you go about that?

Yeah, difficult conversations I have lots of stuff on, you know, how do you do it with peers, people who are on your level, people who are your vendors or you're their vendor, they're your clients or whatever. But with the boss, pretty much one of my leadership tips was from a book I wanted to write. I put all the leadership stuff in the Necessary Roughness book, but the title was going to be Boss. You get to have it your way. That's what boss means. And a lot of employees forget that. They think they have equal rights. Truth is they don't. So, you know, hopefully you have a boss you can admire and learn something from, and you wouldn't want their job for a million dollars because they do so much more than you, including the department budget. Which I would never want to do. That's why I became my own boss. But, you know, they are the boss. They do get to have it their way. Their priorities are your priorities because that's the nature of the job. So can you change their mind? Can you confront them? I don't think so. I tried once and it turned out to be a political appointment and the company went through 3 staffs before they finally got rid of the person. Because you never know who, somebody up there hired this person.

Yeah, very true. Well, let's turn the tables then and talk about this from the boss's perspective, the leader or the manager. How do you get more engagement out of your employees, and especially if we've got this feeling on one hand, people may feel that because of unemployment, they may feel that they really need to do well in this job and give it their best. But then at the same time, if you feel stuck, you could just become complacent and just try to tough it out. How do you stir up more employee engagement and get the best out of your team?

Well, that's been the age-old challenge. That's why I'm still doing this. I love this field because it always fascinates me how bosses can expect to treat people not very well and then get great treatment in return. It doesn't happen. So I always say to bosses, and employee engagement is this huge new buzzword for— for people actually doing their job. We used to say there were people who are engaged, you know, who committed, another word for it, committed and actually doing it and being responsible and easy to work with and they're your stars. But then there are other people who kind of what I call quit and stay. Do you know what I mean? They're still collecting the paycheck. But they're not really there. They're not really giving their all or even a little bit of their all. So I say, okay, here's what the boss is responsible for doing. For years and years and years, all the research has shown that the major reasons that you lose good people, great people, people you don't want to leave, is two reasons only, and they're things that you as the boss are responsible for. Number one, people say in the exit interviews, I didn't get full appreciation of my work. And who's responsible for that? The boss makes it or breaks it. So I always say be extra attentive to what they accomplish. Never miss a chance for a one-minute praising. It doesn't take a long time. To say, wow, I really admire that you are in here every day on time. It really sets a great example for the work group. Thank you. It takes 6 seconds. I always call it, you know, the 6-second empathy or praising. So first is the full appreciation of work done. The other reason people leave or they're not really engaged in their work is I They say, I didn't feel in on things. I was the last to know. As soon as we found out how to do something in the new process, the rug was pulled out. We weren't updated. We weren't informed. So feeling in on things is another huge motivator, and it, it's really the reason that people stay. You can't give them raises these days, and not only that, there's been so many layoffs that people are now doing more for less. They're doing 2 people's jobs or 3 people's jobs, and they didn't get any bump in pay. So you have to not provide additional surprises. People hate surprises, and the boss is responsible for, one, fully appreciating their people, and two, letting their people feel in on things, feel informed and updated. Even if you don't know, say you don't know, but you'll get back to them. You'll communicate something. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah. That's good advice. And I know, you know, just today, these last few years, there's been so much change and turmoil, and there still is, that one of the things, if stuff is happening all around you in the organization, it can make you feel a little overwhelmed. Uneasy, but at least, you know, thinking of myself in the employee's shoes, I mean, at least if you've got a boss that you know that this boss cares about you, and then at least that provides a little bit of stability in the midst of the storm.

Exactly. Exactly. It's your honesty and your vulnerability and your willingness to keep people as informed as you can that makes people trust you, makes people loyal to you, and really gets your good people to stay.

Yeah, definitely.

And it's not easy because we're all feeling, you know, the number one thing I'm asked to speak about is how do we manage stress during times of change. So I have this course called Managing Stress in Times of Change because we thought all the change was done 3 years ago, but then boom, more change. So yeah. It's— and then of course trust is a huge issue in this country as well as in the workplace.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because you talk about two-way trust between both the boss and the employee.

Oh yeah, because I'm hired to speak for both groups. I mean, very seldom do they let me speak to them together, which would be nice. Then it's called team building. But when I— and I do that too, but when I talk about Whom do you trust? I have 6 steps for bosses, but then if I'm speaking to employees, I have 6 steps for employees because it's really a two-way street. Trust is that kind of thing that it's tough to define because it's a function of character and competence. It's a feeling of assured reliance on someone or or something or the truth that people are telling you the truth. So you really want trust in the workplace. And trust in the workplace, I always say to bosses, is a function of you being as clear as you can. Number 1, be clear about what you want the person to do. You can imagine how many times I've heard employees say, well, they're not clear. They think they're clear. They're not clear.

Yeah.

And then my favorite cartoon is always the boss gritting his teeth and screaming, "Oh no, you did it just like I told you!" Which everybody cracks up because everybody's had a boss like that. You'll do it exactly the way they said and then they go crazy because now they've changed what they want. But they didn't tell you. So number 1 is keep people informed. I mean, really to be clear, as clear as you can. Number 2, you have to put it on their test. Remember I told you what the test was? So you got to give people a reason to do what you want because people are always asking, "What's in it for me?" Yep. And that's that whole motivation piece. You've got to link it to a higher purpose. You've got to— With immature employees, you've got to really tell them what will happen if they don't do it. You know, there's got to be consequences or teeth in the goal. But you've got to find out what's important to the employee and put it on their test. It's a two-way street. So give them a reason to do what you want. And then thirdly, you have to provide the tools and resources to to do the job so it's actually doable. A lot of people think that managing people is just about talking good. I'm a good talker. I can— I have a, you know, silver tongue and I'm eloquent. No, no, no. If they don't have the right computer program or the right chair, they're not going to get it done. This is stuff. This is put your money where your mouth is. This is programs, training, physical space, time. These are not solved by an eloquent communication style. So this is, you know, the stuff. And number 4, you've got to provide feedback because what manager— what employees are always asking is not only what's in it for me, which is the motivation part, but how am I doing? How am I doing? And when you say nothing, Human beings come up with awful scenarios. You know, I mean, we always grade ourselves tougher than bosses grade us.

Yeah.

And all the experts say that authentic and timely feedback is the number one motivator to get people to do work for you, to be loyal to you, and to trust you. Authentic and timely feedback. You got to be generous with your feedback.

Yeah, and that authentic part, that's important because you can't fake that. I mean, you can, but they'll know.

Oh, they'll know because then they'll say, "What, are you going to pink slip me? What? Why are you being nice? You're never nice." You know, you got to keep it in your style. And then I always say include people as much as possible. That's step 5. And that's that whole, you know, making them in on things. Some things are private within top management, but other things you can actually inform people of. Even the fact that we are now in process, people, there is no definite outcome, but I'll keep you informed. Oh, people appreciate that. Right. And then the 6th step I always tell bosses is be human. Be human. I like that one. That means different things to different people, but I've been teaching for such a long time. All my engineers used to be ex-military guys who didn't know how to say thank you, great job. They thought give them praise, they want a raise. Now it's different. But, you know, if you're not a great communicator, you can sometimes appoint someone to interface with, you know, your people or get a mentor and expand your style. And in my classes, people who think they're not funny or amusing or they don't have people skills, they often do. They just kind of need drawing out. They don't know they're funny. They tell a story to their buddies and they're really a scream. And the minute they get in a work environment, oh, all the personality has to go away?

No.

Bring some of your humanity in. So those are my little pearls of wisdom.

Very good. That's great. Topic, this material, is just so important for organizations today. I think when— because they're, you know, so much, so much is unknown, there's so much uncertainty, but these issues related to the people, the boss to employee, employee to boss, these kind of relationships, the human element, that's, you know, that's what really drives things.

Well, you have to know your people too. You know, the Gen Y people, the millennials, the workers in their 20s, they not only respond to praise, they expect it. So it's even more important to point out things they're doing well. It's very interesting.

Yeah. Well, good. Well, this has been great. And before we go, I want to ask you, your last book, your most recent book was Necessary Roughness, and I love reading your blog about the NFL and sports. So before we go, I just want to ask, do you have— what's been on your mind lately? Your latest lesson learned from sports that you could share with our listeners here?

Ooh, well, I always say even in the offseason, because now I think it's offseason for football, so it's kind of disheartening for me, but you can even find inspiration because sports is inspiring. I mean, the world is full of horrible headlines, But every day on ESPN— this is the biggest tip I can give you to be the happiest person in the room, which is really our job during these troubled times, because the happiest person in the room is going to get hired, they're going to get talked to, they're going to get leads, whatever you want. You need to be the happiest person in the room because then people are going to want to be with you. And if you lack the motivation, which a lot of us do right now because we're doing so much more for so much less, I say watch ESPN. Every day they have what they call the top 10 plays, and these are the top 10 plays just from the day before, just from sports from the day before. So now it's all baseball, and it's a little bit of hockey because they're in the playoffs for the Stanley Cup, and it's a little bit of basketball because they're in the playoffs, but a lot of it's baseball, and people reach out for impossible catches. With their mitts and they slide and they sacrifice their face in the ground in order to catch the ball and make the out. And you look at that and you think, how far do I go? How committed am I to really getting what I want, to really winning in this economy and in this environment? Because the thing that's exciting about sports is and why— the reason I wrote this book I wrote the book at the lowest ebb of where people were canceling meetings like crazy 3 years ago because the economy was just terrible. I guess it was 2008 I wrote the book, so it was 4 years ago. It took about a year. The thing that really blew my mind was that in sports nobody's stopping. If you're 17 points behind and it's 2 minutes and 38 seconds left, you don't go, oh, this game's over, we're going in, let's just, you know, we'll show up next week and live to fight another day. No, nobody does that. You play to the whistle. You play till the whistle blows. And it just blows my mind, people are 17 points behind in football. Like last night, the Heat, the NBA Finals are on and the Heat were behind the Pacers by, oh, 17 points or more. And did they just kind of lose their heart? No, they came back even stronger and they ended up winning. It was just exciting to watch. That is what turns me on, the 100% commitment, the never stopping, the brushing off the bad place, what they call shaking it off, which we have to do now with the economy. Shake it off and know that you are going to do it tomorrow or in the next minute. Don't take a break. Just keep going.

Yeah, that's great advice. I love sports too. There's just so many great lessons there. That's excellent. Let's— we'll end on that note. That's a really strong, positive, encouraging note to end on. And maybe I just want to Thank you again, and for those of you who are listening, if you'd like to learn more about Mimi and more about how she can help you, whether that's through her books or her blog or even booking her to speak for your organization, you can find her here at thespeakersgroup.com, also at mimidonaldson.com. You can find her books on Amazon. She's on Twitter @mimidonaldson. I mentioned I love to follow her. Get all kinds of great updates, but especially all of her sports blogs come out there. So thanks again, Mimi, and thank you for listening to the Better Life Better Business podcast, and we'll see you next time.