Robert Thompson debunks some of the biggest myths about leadership, answers his readers' #1 question, and shares four questions that can transform your relationships
In this episode of the Better Life Better Business podcast, host Shawn Ellis interviews leadership expert Robert Thompson, author of The Offview and creator of the Four‑Commitment Model (Show Up, Step Up, Speak Up, Serve Up). The conversation begins with a brief overview of Thompson’s book, which uses a fictional parable to illustrate real‑world leadership challenges, and addresses listener curiosity about whether the characters are based on real people. Thompson then debunks several common leadership myths: that leadership and management are the same, that vision statements can be merely decorative, that open‑door policies are always optimal, that promotions are automatically beneficial, and that praise should be abundant rather than focused on quality. He introduces his Four‑Commitment Model, explaining each commitment as a practical behavior—Show Up (living your values to build trust), Step Up (curiosity‑driven creative disruption), Speak Up (crafting and sharing a vision story), and Serve Up (deep engagement that builds camaraderie and ownership). Thompson emphasizes that the model is applicable to anyone, from parents to CEOs. Building on the model, he outlines the Four Commitment Questions—“What can I do more of? What can I do less of? What can I start doing? What can I stop doing?”—as a simple, repeatable tool for improving team dynamics and breaking down silos. He shares evidence that regular use of these questions can shift an organization from exclusive to inclusive culture, boosting results and employee happiness. Finally, Thompson previews a new behavioral assessment called the 16 Sources of Leadership, a 16‑item instrument aligned with the Four‑Commitment Model that can be used as a self‑score, 360‑feedback, or team‑building tool. He notes that the instrument is currently in testing with his clients and invites listeners to participate. The episode closes with resources for connecting with Thompson, including his websites (leaderinsideout.com, thespeakersgroup.com), his BlogTalkRadio show, and his Twitter handle @RobertHThompson.
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Hello everyone and welcome to the Better Life Better Business podcast presented by The Speakers Group. I'm Shawn Ellis, founder of The Speakers Group, and today I'm talking with leadership expert and speaker Robert Thompson. You may know Robert as the author of The Offsite or as host of the weekly Thought Grenades radio program, and he's also worked with the Tom Peters Company and is a founding master facilitator for the Leadership Challenge workshop, which is based on the classic book by Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner. But this is a guy who knows world-class leadership from the inside out. And his website, by the way, is www.leaderinsideout.com. And I'm going to be asking Robert to share some of his best advice to help you become a stronger leader in your life in business, because as Robert will tell you, being a leader has nothing to do with your job title. So with that said, Robert, welcome and thank you for being here today.
Well, Shawn Ellis, it's good to chat with you. Thanks for having me on the program. No problem.
Well, it's great to have you back. Actually, I think the last time we spoke was shortly after the release of your book, The Offsite. And let's just pick up there. Let's talk about the book again just briefly for those who haven't haven't read it yet, you chose to write that book in the format of a fictional story. And I know one of the common questions has to be, are those characters based on people in real life?
Yeah, that is a common question. And I share in the introduction that it's true. There are pieces of the characters that come from real life, from my work over the last 20 or so years working with folks in both small and large groups. And doing coaching work. So I've taken pieces of those real people and merged them together into a few characters that wander through the story. And I'm told they reveal quite a bit for the reader. They allow the reader to see those people that they've worked with and to be able to see how they could have led them better or worked with them better or whatever the case may be.
Yeah, I mean, I love the parable or fable format. I think it's just a great way to see these concepts brought to life so you can see them in a very real way. What are some of the myths about leadership that you've discovered? You've been in this field for 30+ years now. Any myths that you want to possibly debunk here?
We probably have not enough time to share all of the myths, that's for sure. But let me just pop a few out there. One of the big ones that we cover in all of my conversations with folks is that is that leadership and management are not the same. I mean, that's— the myth is that they are the same, and what I share is that they're not the same. Leadership is about people and management is about things, and never the twain shall meet. You need both in an organization, but you really need to understand that those two are very different and how you approach them are different. Another myth is that vision— as you'll walk into many organizations these days, you see the vision statement up on the wall. Well, the myth is that that vision is something that you can laminate, put around your name tag, or hang on the wall. And that is absolutely a myth. One of the big ones is that open-door policies are always the best policy. I think when people read the offsite, they'll find that in the story that the open-door policy sometimes is not the best policy. It really creates people who need you instead of want to lead. Also that being promoted is always the best for you. Sometimes it's not, and I think Joe in the Offsite book shares a little bit about that. And again, one more myth that you can praise too much. You really can't, but it is about the quality, not the quantity. So those are a few of the myths that I've encountered over the years that no matter what setting I'm in, large group, small group, those questions pop up.
Those are some good ones because I know that a lot of those are commonly held beliefs and some things that we've heard a lot. So that's good to know. What about, I love your 4-commitment model of leadership which I know is the foundation for many of your speaking programs, the Show Up, Step Up, Speak Up, and Serve Up if I got that right. Can you share a bit about that and especially how someone can put that to work in their life or business even today?
Well, you know Shawn, my work is about simplifying things, being practical, and allowing people to get results right away.
So they read the book.
I want them to be able to go out and practice the things in there. The Four Commitments model popped up. It's in lowercase in the book, but it popped up after I started getting feedback from people because they started to see this repetition of show up. Well, what does show up mean? Well, it means that my values, right, are out there for everyone to see, and they're real. And those values, those values you walk, not just talk about, create your veracity. And then that veracity, or trust if you will, allows your voice to be not just heard in the hallways, but to be respected. Step up, you know, once you've got your voice, then stepping up, You've got to have something to step up to. And stepping up is about having and allowing your curiosity. And everyone has, they have things that they want to know about. They want to grow themselves. They want to help grow others. So stepping up is about allowing your curiosity to create creative disruption. And you see this in industry these days. You see a lot of disruption out there. Change takes place. And that comes from curiosity. And then that disruption then creates It allows innovation to take place. Speaking up is about having a vision story, as I mentioned in one of the myths, not just laminating it and putting it on the wall, but actually creating a vision story. And when you begin to tell that story to others, whether it's your team, your organization, your spouse, it really doesn't matter, it creates possibilities. And then those possibilities create an opportunity for aligned action to begin. And then Serving Up is about engagement. It's a word that's used an awful lot these days. But that deep engagement with people allows camaraderie to build. And with camaraderie and this connection between people, it allows a greater ownership of the results. And I think all business leaders especially want people who work with them to own their results. To have their initials carved on it. That's what makes a great organization, a great company, and great products.
What comes to mind is it gets back to what I said earlier, that leadership is not just about a job title. And that 4 Commitment Model, Show Up, Step Up, Speak Up, and Serve Up, really anyone can apply that in their life and in the office, right?
Absolutely. You know, Shawn, I've said for years now, when it finally dawned on me about this thing called leadership. It's not about the definition of leadership either. It's a, you know, leadership is really an experience that people have with one another. And leadership is totally one of the myths that we spoke about earlier in that a lot of times people think it's not for them. You know, it's for the person in the corner office or the person with the blue suit and red tie on or, you know, whatever it might be. Leadership is for everyone. And so this model here is set up precisely for that and to make sure that it's simple so that people can understand it, understand the behaviors that go with it, and move forward and lead. Whether it's for the PTA or being a CEO, it doesn't matter. Even just as a parent, these things are all good for parenting as well.
Yeah, and continuing with the Four Commitment Model, you've also got the Four Commitment Questions, which I know offers a practical way that people can enhance teamwork and really blow up the silos so that an organization's culture can get better results and see stronger relationships in the workplace and at home. As you mentioned, can you talk a little bit about those questions?
Right, well, the Four Commitment Questions certainly came from my work. As I would speak or do a workshop or whatever the interaction might be, coaching, whatever, People would say, well, you know, this is— I'd lay out this, do this, do that, and they'd say, well, you know, I don't have a lot of time. And what can I do? Tell me what I can do tomorrow to deal with this person or to engage the team. And so finally what started showing up for me was this Four Commitment Questions process. And it's really very simple. And when people hear it, they go, it's too simple. It just won't work. And so I see the rolled eyes and so on. The point is that they do work, but you have to practice them on a regular basis with people. And you have to be ready to ask these questions not only of the people immediately around you, but have them be able to ask questions of you, same thing, and allow it to ripple out into the organization. Now the questions, people are probably wondering, well, what are the questions? Tell me what the questions are. The questions are very simple. Again, It's what can I do more of? What can I do less of? What can I start doing for you? And what can I stop doing for you? So there's probably other questions that go along with that, but if we stick to those 4, and I've had clients do this, if they stick to these 4 questions alone and they begin to ask their team these questions on a regular basis, it's not every day, it's not every time you see them, it's on a regular basis in a balanced way, and then you engage with them with the answers and start doing some of those things, Or in the case of stop doing, you stop doing it. And then allow those people to ask you those questions. And then to build their team the same way. I've seen an organization go from having a culture that was extremely exclusive. They didn't, you know, there was a certain amount of people in it and no one spoke outside that circle. To where with the Four Commitment Questions it became a very inclusive culture. And people were magnetized to the organization and results Showed up. Products were sold. Services were offered and so on. And people are happier at work. And I mean, good grief, that's one of the goals of being a great leader.
Yeah, I love those. So practical. Can you go through those 4 questions just one more time to make sure our listeners get those?
Right, without going so fast. So the 4 commitment questions are, what can I do more of? What can I do less of? What can I start doing? And what can I stop doing? And then of course the end of the sentence is for you. So you as the leader asking people in a group or one-on-one these 4 questions. And then you begin to do or not do, as the case may be, those kinds of things. Again, just because they say, well, stop doing certain things, that doesn't mean you do that. But at least you can share with them why you do something, and so that creates conversation which creates real communication. Which creates that relationship that you want so that people can engage, build camaraderie, and develop that ownership of the result.
Excellent, excellent. And I know that this is exactly why the audiences love you and why those who read your books connect with you, because you do, you break this down into very simple practical steps. You get past the theory to where the rubber meets the road, you might say. So that's great. And along those practical lines, Before we go, I know that you've got a new simplified behavior instrument that you've been testing. Would you like to talk a little bit about that, share anything about that before we go?
Absolutely, Shawn. Thank you for bringing that up. It's called the 16 Sources of Leadership. And I tell you, if I could get it down further, I'd do it. But I'm trying to get it down to the, as you mentioned, to the core behaviors that people need to do to lead well. And so there's 16 items, and each of them, these behaviors, there's 4 per part of my model. So Show Up has 4, Step Up has 4, Speak Up has 4, and Serve Up has 4. So what I'm doing is I'm putting together this instrument and testing it with folks now and trying to make sure that it works. And so far the tests say that it does. People can take the— the quiz, if you will, the instrument very quickly. There's only 16 questions. Do you do this all the time, none of the time, this kind of thing. And once they have that answer, they have their self-score. The goal of the instrument, of course, is to get it out there as a 360 so that people can give this instrument to others. And what I've been doing in the testing phase is changing the I word from I do this to "they do this" or "my boss does this," you know, "my manager." And so now with those 3 different versions of the same 16 questions, just with, you know, different focus, they can get a 360 with it very quickly. And so it can be used as a team builder, you know, do we do this behavior or not? And if— do we want to do it? So we can have a conversation around it. So trying to make it very free-flowing and low-cost, so that people can do this and get results right away. And it sort of puts a foundation under the Four Commitment Model. It says this is real stuff. It's about behavior. So let's shift our behavior to get different results.
Yeah, that's excellent. And is this— can people get their hands on this yet, or is it only available to your clients right now?
Yeah, it's really with my clients right now testing in a couple of different scenarios where there's a few thousand people going through it right now., and they're giving me the feedback on the viability. Are all the words correct? Do they get the meaning? Are they doing these behaviors and seeing the results? And so far it's working. But if you have listeners that would like to be a part of that process, just have them drop you a line or drop me a line, and we can see if we can help them get their hands ahold of this and help me test it out.
Okay, very good. That sounds great. And if you would like to connect with Robert, of course you can find him here at thespeakersgroup.com. That's thespeakersgroup.com. Also his website, leaderinsideout.com. You can find a lot more information about Robert and the Four Commitment Model. You can read his blog there and of course connect with him, reach out if you'd like to participate in the test with this new tool. Also you can listen to Robert's radio show every Monday on BlogTalkRadio. .com. Always a great conversation there. So just go to blogtalkradio.com and search for Robert Thompson, or you can also find that linked off of his website. Pick up a copy of his book, The Offsite, on Amazon.com. And also, if you're on Twitter, you can get daily leadership tips by following him on Twitter @RobertHThompson. So make sure that H is in there, Robert H. Thompson. Thompson. But thank you again, Robert, for being here. This has been a joy, and I look forward to the next time we can talk. And thank you to those of you who are listening to the Better Life Better Business podcast, and we'll see you next time.
