Breaking Dysfunctional Cycles so Your Teen Can Thrive in College & Beyond with Aly Pain00:0027:38

Hello parents, this is Shellee Howard with College Ready, and I'm so excited to introduce my guest today. Welcome Allie Payne to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Shellee. I'm excited for the conversation.

Excellent. So before we get started, can you help our families, our parents, understand a little bit about your background and how you ended up doing what you're doing?

Absolutely. So growing up, I was the smart, really fun girl on the outside, and but on the inside, I was like a frantic, hot, anxious mess. And I went from award-winning student and athlete to detention and failing out in grade 11, undiagnosed ADHD, and a lot going on in my home that I've spent decades healing from. So along with all of the therapy and personal development to heal from family, dysfunctional family relationships, including an eating disorder, a suicide attempt, to break the cycle with my own sons. My oldest also is autistic ADHD, which there wasn't a lot of proper diagnoses or support. So figuring that out all on my own for the last 18 years, I've been empowering parents of teens, and that does include teen, sort of young adults. It's the same brain. I went back to school in 2006. I became a certified life coach, certified relationship systems coach, one of only about 70 people in Canada to hold both designations. And working— just had the opportunity to support parents from around the world to rebuild the mutual respect and trust, as well as that meaningful connection that as parents it so seems like elusive in their really pivotal teen years without giving in or the daily nagging and more consequences. And I've been fortunate to be featured on the New York Post, NBC Nightly News, the Rachael Ray Show, and have over half a million followers on social media.

Outstanding. So what you're saying people are interested in, and that's why we reached out to you, and I'm like, you know, preparing teenagers for life, let alone college or trade school, whatever that may be. Is just part of what we've all done. But life has changed so much in the generations, and so we can't keep doing what we did and expect that it's going to work. So we help students prepare for college, you help parents prepare for life, and I thought blending the two would be incredibly powerful. So I'm excited to get started. Um, I did want to ask, um, did you know when you were in high school that you would be a life coach?

I did.

Okay.

I did. Um, I knew what was happening in my home was wrong, and I knew how daily, how extremely painful it was. And I knew that in some way in my life, I would be part of making that right for myself, for my own children, and for everyone else. I believe we learn everything we learn about relationships at home, really. I mean, we can prove that in psychology and science. When we get relationships right at home, we literally can change the world.

I love that. That just gave me chills. So there's no pressure, parents. Those of you listening, like, you can change the world or you can't. I mean, it's just up to you. Um, let's talk a little bit about, um, so you got into this because of a personal, um, path that, that happened to you. At what point did you say, um, I'm all in, I'm going back to school? I'm— was there like that one defining moment, or is it just like things that led up to it that finally said, this is what I want to do?

I am very, very fortunate that the path I have been on, although it may seem like sidesteps, were all preparing me for now. And even though, you know, I was— I actually worked in the medical field for after high school. That was the career my parents chose for me. And for 7 years, it was all about empowering patients. And I didn't like a lot of the job, but I kept saying, well, you're in it for 7 years. Why are you here? And so that self-reflection of saying, well, I actually really do love empowering people. Empowering people is where I want to go. And so then opening my own company and doing workshops and facilitation and realizing I wasn't helping people at the level that change can actually happen from the front of the room. I needed to be able to go deeper with them. So then my girlfriend phones me one day after, you know, 10 years of personal development and decades of therapy, you know, and she's like, I just saw these course outlines at the university near us. It sounded like what you— and, you know, so it just really all unfolded and I I said, I have, I have babies at home. Like, who do you think I am? I'm going back to school.

Well, I did.

So yeah, I was very, very fortunate. I, I think that the path that unraveled, unfolded before me was truly always about taking pain and creating a purpose from it.

Wow. That's powerful. So who would be a person that you could work with and make an impact? So Everybody's listening and they're like, well, I have teenagers and, you know, there's definitely— but how would you know that a teenager is not just being a teenager and/or they need more support or the parent needs more support? Like, how do you, how do you figure out who to bring into your world and who would benefit?

Well, first of all, I think all parents need more support. I think parenting is one of the most consequential roles we play for which there is no training. So for those of you parents who are thinking I'm about to like unload on you and you're going to feel shamed and criticized, back up the bus because I really don't think— you cannot fail at something you were never trained at. I mean, we barely get 6 hours of training on how to get the creature out of our body and keep it alive at home for like, what, 30 days-ish? And then we're just supposed to know, in quotes, we're just supposed to know how to do the rest of this. And nobody tells us that, oh yeah, P.S., when puberty hits or the hormone hijack, as I like to call it, like the friendly, relatively compliant, you know, child that you once knew and things were easy with is going to turn into a moody, defiant, self-centered, like entitled monster that you don't even like being around. Oh yeah, because nobody told you that either. And it isn't because you failed. It's because their brain literally went through the second largest transformation in our human lifetime. There just was no note that came home in grade 5 to warn you. So the parents that I'm— that this would be the best for is those who are knowing that it's okay, it feels hard, you're not failing. That, yeah, you were actually sold down the river because you weren't told what was supposed to happen. And you also, if you're like me, were raised in very outdated parenting models that we now know scientifically, psychologically, relationally don't work. In fact, they were disproven around 1965. And, and we're trying to relearn, reparent ourselves and relearn that. And I'm just going to guess that every parent that listens to this deeply loves their child and wants the best for them. And the way you might be going about that, which is usually probably everything, you know, doing the very best you can, may be creating a bit of dissonance or disconnection or conflict with your teen. And again, that doesn't mean you're bad or broken. It doesn't mean they're a bad apple. It means that there's just more to learn. There's more information. So if you're open-minded and you're willing, then you're in the right place.

Wow. There's a lot of students that went through my mind as you were talking about it. Like, wow, that's that. You know, I've been helping students get into college and graduate debt-free for 17 years. And so I love teenagers. Like, I'm their biggest advocate. I know parents that it comes easy to, and I know parents who are struggling with it. That's why I asked that question, like, how do you know if you're in the right room? And I believe your answer was perfect. If you're wondering, then yes, you're in the right room. And then I also think there's the challenge of step-parenting, right? That's a very big—

that's a big one.

Yeah, so not only are you having a challenge with your biological children, you may be having a challenge with your stepchildren. So let's back up to, um, a little bit of knowledge. You mentioned 5th grade, they come home and there's this shift. Obviously it's not every 5th grader, they all—

no, no, yes.

What does that look like? What, what can a parent maybe look for or expect, uh, for when this is gonna happen, that, that relationship or that child's behavior is going to change, and how can they identify it and be ready to be proactive and, and have a plan?

Yeah, so, um, there is distinct differences in the teen brain and in a child's brain, and they are absolutely not the same. So I actually just pulled up a graphic as you were talking because I— so what used to work for your child was teach me. They wanted you to teach them, right? They wanted you to show them. What your teenager wants, because part of their brain development is massive autonomy, And this is the whole, like, they already know everything, thank you very much. Like that. They want you to let them. Don't teach me, don't show me, just let me. Let me just try it my way. Get over yourself if it's not your way. I'm not— so when they're a child, they want to mimic you. That's how they learn. They're like a mini me, right? They want to mimic you. They're learning. When they're a teenager, they want nothing to do like being like you because you're like so 2008. And lame. So they want this fierce autonomy to put their own stamp, their own flavor, their own spin on absolutely everything. And by the way, they're supposed to do that. They're supposed to want to do everything completely different than you. They wanted, you know, to hear your stories as a child or like get advice from you. And now the minute you do that, you're gonna get the hand.

Muh!

Just talk to the hand. They want you to ask curious questions and just listen because their prefrontal cortex is developing and they want you to just be witness to their processing. And rather than being as controlling with right, wrong, yes, no, which works as a child, as a teen, it's more about asking questions, not always leading questions, but asking questions to help them unfold their own thinking. Because believe it or not, what you instilled in them as a child is actually still there if they're given the chance to express it. You know, as a child, we as parents, we focus more on their behavior and we want to change their behavior. But as a teen, that doesn't work because all 100% of behavior begins in emotion and their emotions are developing, which are creating their beliefs. So if you want lasting behavior change, you can't just say, stop doing that and then You gotta, you gotta be able to understand how to connect at an emotional level. So they understand, you know, they don't want family time because you guys are all lame. They just want time on their phones and with their friends. And the, yeah, you know, consequences don't actually change behavior as much as it was faster when they were a child. They want connection and mentorship to change. So that's just like some of what happens in the brain. They're moodier. They are emotionally unregulated. They have less impulse control. They don't have prioritization, time management, critical thinking, problem solving, critical analysis. Yeah, those are all actually adult-level thinking. Problem is when they come home and all of a sudden they're as tall as you, say, look, or they're taller or bigger, way bigger than you, what you see is a miniature adult.

Hmm.

And that is what no one told you. Right. They're not a child and they are not an adult. They think they are. They wanna be, they want adult-level responsibilities or, sorry, adult-level freedom. They want adult-level freedom with childlike responsibilities.

Mm-hmm.

That doesn't make them entitled. That makes them a teen.

And it's interesting, uh, whenever I hear, uh, parents talk about the teen years, it's just, they groan. They, they're just like, oh, So, and I've always loved teenagers, so I, I didn't see it at all. I still don't see it. I love everybody's teenagers. So for me, listening to this, I, I don't relate personally, but I see it all over the place.

Right.

And that's, that's why I thought you would be so brilliant. Now add another layer. Somebody's asking, so what do you want to be when you grow up? Mm-hmm. And they're hearing whatever I say is not going to be good enough. And I don't want to let my parent down. So they have their own conversations going on.

Yeah.

When I ask them, so what are your gifts and your talents? That they're like, what, what do you mean? Like you really care like that? And it's a simple twist of the way I say it. But is there anything else that you can help a parent? That, that is one thing people come to me time and time again is like, my child has no idea what they want to do. And I'm like, did you? Because at 17, I didn't have it all figured out.

Yeah.

Right. So what can a parent do other than just say, what do you want to do when you grow up to help that conversation level up?

So the first, okay, the first thing I would say is let's remember if the average age of puberty for girls is like 13, 14, you know, of course, that's very generalized.

Okay.

And then for boys, it's like 15-ish. You're asking them to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life. And they just got the new car like 2 years ago. They don't have a clue. Okay. And if they do, great, but they don't. The other, the second thing that is absolutely critical in this is check your own story. Because if you were raised like me, I'm a Gen Xer. If you were raised Gen Z or even millennial, we, it was drilled into us. You had to go to college, you had to get a degree. And if you don't, you're not successful and then you can't get a good job and then you can't get out. Like all of this catastrophization. Of what a giant hot loser you're going to be who like lives at home till you're 35 in your parents' basement. And that kind of catastrophization and that story is not true. In fact, it wasn't even true when I went to school. It was true in the '60s and the '70s when truly at the time getting a degree really did. It was like the giant leap forward and there was good-paying jobs and the economy was such that you made enough, you could actually buy food and pay a mortgage. Okay. Life is not like that anymore. There are literally hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of jobs now that do not require a degree that didn't even exist 20 years ago, 15 years ago, maybe even 10. So I want you to check your story because the story, as you said, my, if my, if your story of, but if they don't, they're gonna, and that that is driving this pressure on your teenager that I guarantee you, if you've learned one thing about a teen, it's that when you want them to do something, even if it is in fact the right thing, their job is to completely push against it and go the opposite direction, even if it is in fact the wrong thing. That's just what they do. So the pressure, to answer your question, to go be something, to be defined as successful, is so high, they're going to go against it because the fear of failure and losing connection with you is too risky. So let alone disappointing themselves. So I would say I love your frame of the question because when I say, so what are you going to do? What are you going to do? That's all about me. It's coming from my fear. And they're not dumb. They know that. If I were to say to my teen, you know, what are your gifts? What are your talents? That's about being curious about them. So first of all, I would say a degree is not everything. It's not anymore. Okay, I'm not saying everyone's gonna be a YouTube star. I'm just saying it's not a— it's not the be-all end-all that it was. In fact, people are graduating with more debt, and a degree doesn't even get you to the starting line. Really, it's less and less of what we were taught it was. It's often the parents' money that's being spent at a secondary, post-secondary education. Why are you going to spend your hard-earned money that you sacrificed for when your child doesn't even know if they want to be there? Interesting. Or they are only doing it to please you. Like, what? Because I'm happy to just take those funds if you just want to give me a couple semesters I'll take it instead. Why would you do that? Often because they are so new in their new brains, they want— they need to— I'm not saying like go live for free on, you know, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying let them go work for a while, get a couple part-time jobs, maybe one full-time job, um, to see what they like and what they don't, including wage, that they learn that without some form of skills improvement— I am not saying that is a degree— it's difficult to earn the wage that they think they can or that they want to. But they're also learning what they like, the kind of boss, the environment, time of day, shifts, right? Like, they're learning so much. Let them go be in the world, like, actually try a couple of the pies on the buffet instead of having to stand back and they've never had pie and you want them to pick which one they want. Like, what? So that's— I think, I think that's the big thing is we need to let go of our generational story that if they don't go to college or university, that's it. They're going to live at home forever. I failed.

Right. So on the flip side of that, what about a parent whose child wants to be an influencer?

Right. And that is a challenge because I may or may not have had a couple of them in this house. So first of all, I was very, very, very strict about social media when my kids were growing up. But I did eventually let them get their own YouTube channel after years of mentorship. I will never get back, but was worth every moment of my time. That's great. And encourage it. If that's what they want, you can encourage it. However, hear me right now. You need to have boundaries. Okay, you want to be an influencer? All right, cool. Let's write down like what are some of your goals? What kind of things would you need to learn? What kind of things would you think you need to do? And if you're going to live at home, what's your budget? What are you going to contribute? Because this isn't like a free-for-all, you know. Unfortunately, you don't get paid in social media. Like, I don't get— I don't get paid for all the videos I post.

I don't.

I do that still in my other time. So what is your— what is the negotiated budget that they need to go and earn at a job or something to be contributing to where they live, given that they are no longer in full-time school, and you are supporting them to build this passion of their— you— of theirs? And then what is the timeline that you're going to renegotiate? How is it going?

What—

how are you finding it? Oh, it's easier than you thought. Great. You're a millionaire. Oh, it's harder than you thought. Yeah, maybe it is. Is there anybody we could get to support you or something? How's that budget working? Right. It's all, you know, and then you put a timeline. Okay. I'm willing to give you, like, I'm making this up. Okay. I'm willing to give you a year or something. Let's say all those negotiated agreements are happening. And then after that, you know, I'm going to have to decide how I feel about it. You're allowed to say that.

Yeah. So, yeah, I've had that conversation many times when I work with students, and I often ask them, so what's your business plan? And they look at me, and you basically touched on the same thing. Well, I don't know how to make a business plan. And then it's, as the parent, do you want to help them make the business plan? Do you want to bring resources in? Like, It's just like anything else when they want to learn something. So that's really fascinating. Now, how do you— what are some of the challenges, other, other challenges parents may be facing that you could help with?

I think one— so I'm just going to piggyback on what I already said of this really singular way of thinking that they have to go to college or university, they have to, or they're going to fail life. Is that one of the biggest challenges is if your child was struggling to be engaged in school before college, so I'm going to just say high school, if they were struggling to be engaged with that, so you had that giant and exhausting power struggle every morning and they couldn't get up, they wouldn't get up on time if you didn't wake them up, they didn't care if they missed, like, so you're struggling with truancy, you know, maybe when they were at school, they weren't really handing in assignments and they didn't really seem to care and they kind of skated through, then again, I'm gonna really ask you to look at your story because it doesn't sound to me like they're ready to steward your money at college or university. And I guess the other question I would ask then is, then who's going to wake them up? Are, are you gonna call them every morning? Like, who's— if you already had that pattern set up with your teen, then you need to have a good hard look at why they're going. And how is that gonna work for you if you do not, if they don't live in the same home with you, are you gonna log in and monitor all their classes? How are you gonna know if they're showing up? How are you gonna know? And so like, I want you to seriously ask yourself this. Ask yourself, why is it just because that's, that's it just, it just has to be that way, or why? The second thing I would say is, okay, if they're gonna go to college, and they're showing interest not just, as you said, to please you for fear of lacking your approval or affection, okay, or disappointing you. If they're going to go to college, what kind of boundaries are you going to set about that? Okay, what is your strategy on getting up on time? What's your strategy for, you know, monitoring or like getting yourself to get enough sleep? Because 'cause you know teens like to be on their phones all night long and gaming, all that stuff. You're not there. And I'm not even saying they're an adult because they leave for school at 18 and an adult depending, like, it's crazy. What is your boundary around what if they're failing out? Like, are you just gonna call them every day and say that you're upset or is it gonna be, okay, this is a withdrawal date. How are you doing? How do you feel? Because I'm good either way, but this is the withdrawal date, so this isn't going to go, you know. Or now we're at midterms, right? Now we're at like— if your child is failing out and this is again your hard-earned money, are you going to keep pushing them to the second semester? Are you going to say, okay, this is what we discussed, I don't think this is the right move for right now, we're going to come up with Plan B for now, and you keep your education funds So you have to be prepared. Like, if you literally think they're going to go to college and be you, we have another problem. Yes, they're going to be open to partying and influences and all these things. So these are all conversations to have with them now. And it's, you know, they're allowed to have that kind of independence. So if you're not ready for them to have that kind of independence, then they probably shouldn't go. If they're not ready to have that kind of independence, they probably shouldn't go. And are you willing to love each other through the hard conversations and boundaries to say, how do we love and respect each other if this doesn't go the way we both wanted? And then what's our plan B? And then we revisit it later. Maybe you go next year. Maybe you go the year after.

Yeah. So if a parent was resonating with any or all of this, how might they reach you? What would be the best way to do that?

Best way to do that, two ways. So my website is alypain.com. It's A-L-Y-P-A-I-N, like ouch, pain, dot com. And there's free resources on there under the blog. I actually have articles about getting what to do when your teen's going to school, or on social media at Aly Payne, A-L-Y-P-A-I-N, on Instagram, TikTok. Facebook, they'll find me there.

Excellent. Ali, thank you so much for your wisdom and your time. And parents, just know they're teenagers, they need you. So thank you, Ali, for being on the show.

Absolutely, thank you so much.