Don't be a quitter interview with Robin

Hello, this is Shellee Howard with College Ready, and I'm super excited to share our guest presenter today. Robin, can you go ahead and tell our families a little bit about yourself?

Sure. Hi everybody, I'm Robin Quinn Keene, and I'm a mom of 4. My kids are all adults now. The one, the last one that was the baby just turned 20 last week. So I've got 4 grown-up kids and I've got a 7-year-old grandson. And my background is, is that I have worked with thousands of families and kids over the past 25 or more years in my music and dance studio. And as a mom of 4 and as a teacher for all of those years, I've really grown to see the impact of the importance of raising kids that cross the finish line, quit-proof kids, right? And the good side and the downside of what happens when we don't teach our children how to do that. And then what, what the parent's responsibility is in the whole thing, right? Because sometimes we think, oh, they'll figure it out. They can finish this themselves. And it turns out kids need lots of support from parents. So that's what I love to talk about. And that's what I'm committed to is helping parents understand how to raise quit-proof kids.

So help me understand, what do you mean by quit-proof? Do you mean like, My kids should always stay in the same activity, even if they absolutely are over it. Help me understand, what do you mean by quit-proof?

Yeah, that's a great question. I get that a lot. So what I've grown to understand, Shellee, is that children, in order to gain confidence, have to at some point and repeatedly, if possible, complete something. And completing something doesn't mean like becoming a master necessarily, but it means completing, learning a skill like to its conclusion, or completing a duration. So 6 weeks of swimming and not quitting until that is over. Because what happens for kids is it's completely natural, and I know it's natural for me and natural for you and natural for human beings to have an experience in anything that's a long-term relationship. I don't care if that's a 6-week swimming course or you know, a 50-year marriage, whatever, whatever it is, or raising kids even, we have an experience of peaks and valleys and plateaus. They just— it's like this all the time in any long-term relationship. So it's 100% natural and normal for a kid to want to quit in the middle. That's just like— I pretty much expect it. But what happens when they quit in the middle is, and it happens again and again, is that they begin to tell the story that I'm actually not good at this. And then they start and quit something else. They didn't achieve a goal or a duration, and they think, actually, I'm not good at this either, because they're kids and they don't have the awareness, understanding, wisdom to know anything else other than I quit. I must not be very good. And so what's really heartbreaking about that is what I witnessed in my studio over and over again. Once I figured it out, I was like, those kids, those kids become the ones that don't want to try anything. Those kids end up being the ones that would rather isolate in their room and not participate in greater things in life because they don't believe they're capable. Right? So it has a huge, huge impact on what a child believes about themselves. And as you know, whatever we bring from our childhood tends to follow us into adulthood. And so I work with a lot of adults who struggle with the implications of quitting in their lives. And so they deal with procrastination, not good enough, not worthy, all of that stuff that nobody wants to deal with, but all of us have to usually from some, something that happened when we were kids.

That's amazing. The mind is so powerful, right? You, you don't think of what your 3-year-old, your 7-year-old, your 10-year-old is going to carry throughout life.

Yeah.

So what if before I met you, I had allowed my child to, I don't know, stop softball after they played for 10 years and just one day decided I don't want to play anymore, but they were in the middle of a season. How do you teach them to be quit-proof? How does that happen?

Yeah, you know, honestly, like anything, the sooner you can begin that, the better off your kids are going to be because they're just going to know. Like with my parents, my parents trained me to be quit-proof. And I'm going to say there's a downside to that too. Okay, so there is a downside, very clear. I know that I brought that into my adulthood, which meant that I never quit. Even when everything said, you need to stop doing this thing, I was like, no, but I must persist because I'm quit-proof, right? Or whatever. I don't think I thought those words, but I— you're not a quitter, Robin, don't quit. So I know there are absolutely times, Shellee Howard, when we need to quit and when we need to let our kids quit. What's tricky about what you just mentioned is in the— you You ended by saying in the middle of a season, right? And so I think the, you know, something we can teach kids as they're growing up is if you're part of the team, we are committed to the team. Like, there you don't leave a team in the middle of a game. And so we are committed through the season, and there's no way of getting out of this. Now, yes, when kids are at a certain age, just like me at, you know, 10, I've been studying violin, and at 10 my parents let me make a choice to continue with violin or switch to piano. So I quit violin so that I could do piano. And I think that's totally reasonable, and I think that's a great thing to do, is to let our children as they grow have more say in the matter. But if we see that what actually our kids are doing is like in the middle of something pulling the plug, I'm out of here, okay, wait, 'Cause you're gonna grow up and you're gonna be in the middle of a job and you're gonna be working on a project and maybe you don't like the project. Well, you can't really just pull the plug in a career and go, "I don't like this, I'm out of here." Or in a relationship, in a marriage, in a serious dating situation to just, you know, because absolutely it's like this, right? And to just say, "Ah, I'm gonna pull the plug." Wherever we are, that mindset, it becomes habitual. Like, oh, I can just leave. So the more we can do with our kids when they're young with having them have the experience, and this is important, of completion. When you complete something, so just, you know, you and I completing something we said we were going to do, you just feel good. You just like stand a little taller. You just, you have more confidence because you kept your word. And kids have that same experience. So when they did complete 6 weeks of swimming lessons, the coach gives them a high five. They're like, yeah, I did that. Like, I could do it again. I could do something else and I'd have the same experience. Or I was in gymnastics and I learned how to do the cartwheel. Like, awesome. I feel good about myself. So just like quitting sets up a habitual experience, achievement sets up a habitual achievement. And so this is funny, but here's where I totally saw this happen. So I taught piano, and I still teach piano for, I don't know, 20— I don't know, I hate to say like 27 years or something like that. It's ridiculous. Uh, I don't know where the time goes. And so all of you moms, the time does go, even though you might be like, oh my gosh, it just does pass. But so One of the things that I thought was really weird in my studio is I taught a lot of group piano lessons. I had a lot of kids in, in with me. And I remember thinking, how do I end up with all the really exceptional kids? Like, what the heck is going on here? Because I had kids that excelled at piano. I had— and their parents attended with them. So there was a way that we did that so that the parents were responsible for the commitment, not the kid, as they were growing, because kids can't be responsible for commitments. But so they were in piano with me and they played soccer and they were like A+ students. And I had a couple of kids who won like the local history fair and science fair and went on to the state and went on to nationals. And I just remember thinking, what the heck? Like, how are they— there are all these remarkable kids in my lessons. And then I realized, oh my gosh, it's— what happened was they have had repeated experiences of being successful. Achieving goals, playing songs, being acknowledged, encouraged to keep going when they wanted to quit, understanding that they, they could do more if they hung in there. Um, and that's— that was my big aha moment. I was like, wow, I don't just have remarkable kids, I have remarkable parents who are taking a stand for their kids having completed what they started. And be becoming quit-proof.

I love that. So then why do kids quit? I mean, it sounds like there's such a great reason for them not to quit, but why are they quitting?

Well, I think there are a couple of things, and I really honestly believe parents when they're young have everything to do with it because it's natural to want to quit. I remember my daughter Madeline, she was my firstborn, and when she was like 4, 3 and a half or 4, we were going to preschool and I had a baby as well. Yeah, little guy, her brother. And one day she just didn't want to go anymore. And she was going to preschool, for heaven's sakes. It was like 2 mornings a week. It was short. It was fun. And one day she just didn't want to go. And I took her temperature. I was like, what's wrong with her? And so we stayed home, right? And then she didn't want to go again. Took her temperature, tried to figure it out, couldn't figure it out. Finally took her the next time kicking and screaming. And the minute we got there, she ran off and had a great time. And that happened a couple of times and I was exhausted, right? I was breastfeeding, I was changing diapers, I had a baby, I had a toddler. Just getting out the door to preschool was like this major event. And so, you know, get her all ready and she pitches a fit and you're— and like, I remember one day just laying on the floor next to her crying, like, okay, I guess we're not going. So I really needed to understand what was going on. Why would she at 3 and a half or 4 want to quit going to preschool? So I asked her teacher, Mrs. O'Brien, like, what's—

what is this?

And she said, okay, so she's super smart, but she is— she's trying to get you to make a decision. She's trying to see what you will do, if you will make a different decision for her, even at that young age, which shocked me. So she asked me two questions: is she safe here, and do you value this? And I was like, yeah. And she said, well, then you choose. And that was a real wake-up moment for me because I realized the, the nurturer inside of me, everything inside of me said, don't be a bad mom, don't be a bad mom. So the question was, am I being a bad mom if I let her quit, or am I being a bad mom if I make her go?

Oh, right. Yeah, that's real.

Yeah, that's real. And then I realized, no, I had a responsibility to be the grown-up. And the grown-up says, preschool, you love preschool, it's great for you. You're only there 4 hours a week, for heaven's sakes. It's good for you, Madeline, to be in the social setting and learning these things. And so no, you're gonna go. And so honestly, I took her kicking and screaming a few times until she finally went, oh, I guess I'm really going. She never said that, but she gave up. She just gave it up. So that's the problem though, right? For us as moms, for a lot of us, not all of us, but many of us have very tender hearts and we don't want to be wrong and we don't want to damage our kids. We don't want to make the wrong decision. So it feels real when they have a pitch a fit and get upset. But I'm— unless you think something is really wrong and you should 100% check it out, right? Never just ignore something. Um, really quick story. When I was 10, I went to private piano lessons. At a very prestigious place in a very nice Chicago suburb with a remarkable teacher. And I desperately wanted to take piano. I played by ear, but I really wanted to take lessons. And after 3 weeks, I didn't want to take lessons anymore. And I told my mom— Miss— I won't say her name, the teacher. She's long gone, I'm sure. But just on the chance that she's like 100 and she happens to watch this video, I said, she's mean to me. Being really mean. And my mom was like, a prestigious studio with a renowned teacher with all of this good stuff. So my mom was really tiny, like 5 feet tall, and there was a one little tiny square window at the top of the door. And so the fourth week, my mom said goodbye, have a great lesson. She found a ladder. I don't know how the heck she found the ladder. She found the ladder and she climbed up and she watched in the window and she saw what was happening in that room. And I'll never forget, I still remember, you know how you have those moments where they're just like etched forever in your memory? Sitting on my bed, it was one of those with the bumps, I don't know, whatever kind of bedspread it was. It was the afternoon and she came in and she said, you don't have to go back. I saw what was happening. I know. Thank you for telling me. So there are absolutely times when we need to pay attention and do our homework and talk to other parents and find out what's going on. But if you know that your child is safe and you value the activity, Decide with your spouse or by yourself on a duration or an outcome and achieve it. And make sure your child knows they achieved it. Wow, we finished preschool. Wow, you completed swimming. Wow, you learned to do that cartwheel. I am so proud of your effort. Right? That's what we need to be doing. So kids quit because they can. And there are a couple of other reasons really quickly here. Kids often quit when it's no longer fun, and sometimes parents have something to do with that, right? So I work a lot with parenting archetypes or personality types. So parents that are ruler-type personalities, they're very systematic. It's gotta look like this, it's gotta be perfect. It's like, no, nothing messy about it. For ruler-type personality moms, quitting is not the problem. They're not gonna let their child quit, but perfectionism is. So a child that feels that constant expectation of being perfect, a kid will wanna quit because of that. That happens a lot in sports too, right? Lots, lots of times in sports, there's tremendous pressure to perform at this particular level. And if you want a kid to quit, yeah, just immerse them in that pressure and they'll want to quit. Now that's more of a legitimate older kid quit. Doesn't usually happen to younger kids, perfectionism, except with, in my studio, ballerinas. Little ballerinas.

Little ballerinas. Yeah.

Because they have that personality too, of perfectionism. Often, not always, but that was kind of what I noticed. Yeah.

You know, it's so interesting knowing that I was going to speak with you today. Last night I had a client, a potential client call and say, can we hop on a Zoom call? And I'm like, absolutely. And she made it seem very urgent and I didn't catch on, but I'm like, you know, maybe she's a high school senior and we're getting close. So Yeah, fine. So mom was on the Zoom, daughter was on the Zoom. Dad walks in, kind of flops down on the bed. Very odd. And then wasn't 5 minutes into our call, I asked if there was any questions and dad pops up and he says, does she have to stay with softball? Because that's our, our, that is our life. And the child, you can tell, was just imploding. She did not want to do it anymore. And I, I saw what you're talking about because she had legit reasons she wanted to switch, uh, sports, but Dad was holding on tight because his identity was her coach and those were his friends. Yes. And so I got to see it in action and the pressure that it put on the family.

Yes.

What do you recommend when you're in that situation? Because it took me back. I, I had not been so intensely involved in that, and I felt for the child, and I felt for the mom, and I felt for the dad. Like, they all— I, I felt for all of them. So when you're in that, and she's a junior in high school, so we're not talking a child, right?

Yeah, you know, that is a really difficult situation. Um, and I mean, how many times have I witnessed this even as a kid in high school, right? And, uh, watching other kids in sports and having their parents be so ferocious, right? Like, just like they have to do this. And I, I've actually have a good friend who played football, and he was like the quarterback at my high school, and he's talked to me about it. He's like, my dad forced me to do that. I will never force my kids. But I don't think when we're in the middle of it, we see it for what it is. And just exactly what you said, Shellee Howard, there's an identity caught up in that. There's, there's ego. And I'm not being negative, but I'm just saying there is who am I, who is my kid, what are my friends gonna think, what is, there's prestige that goes along with this, but sadly the person that suffers is the kid because if they're no longer having fun, it's not satisfying, it becomes a job. You know, I guess if I'm talking to somebody like that, I will ask them just to consider, consider what this must mean for that child. Consider the impact it's having on their child's love of, or not love of participation? And how could that potentially impact other areas? It's not just that sport. And where is this, where is this thing about expectations? Like, where does that live and why is it there? And could we just let our kids be kids? And I get it, when you're going to college, maybe that's a scary thought. And you and I've talked a little bit about this, right? Colleges want to see longevity. But if there's longevity in other areas, does it matter? Like, could she switch? Could she be happier because she's got one year to go? I don't know. It's a very tough spot and there's a lot of— there's a lot caught up in that situation.

Yeah. So I work with a lot of scholar athletes and it's interesting. So I played softball for the USA and when I tell a student that, they're like, wow. What they don't realize is it wasn't for the Olympics. That was not a sport back then. I did it myself. But why I tell them that is because I want them to know I have an athlete's mindset. I know what it takes to perform and to commit and be part of that. And I learned it from a very young age because my parents said, you're committed for the whole season and then we can, you know, talk about it when your commitment is finished. Yes. And I carried that through to my own children. And so how do you break the cycle? Say, say my parents didn't hold me accountable or let me just quit. How do you now help that next generation to be in that position of, you know what, this is going to benefit them if they stick with it? What would be your encouragement?

My encouragement would be to just take a few minutes and sit with yourself and ask, how has that served me? How has quitting served me? Like, is it working for me? Where do I quit in my life? And how am I— how do I feel when I do quit? And how do I feel when I don't quit too, right? When I'm like— when I can't quit. Like, there— so there's another whole side to the story. But when it comes to What happens to us as kids follows us into a lifetime of making commitments and then, you know, slipping away without saying anything and then feeling horrible. Signing up for something at your kid's school and then just not being able to be there, not being able to complete that, that thing you said. Or agreements with your spouse or agreements with other people. This is where it shows up. We— if we don't know how to stick with something because we didn't learn it, we suffer a lot from that. So if you were really just to look at it and go, yeah, actually it hasn't been good for me, and actually I see it show up in all these different areas— in my work, in my relationships, in the way I feel about myself, in my confidence, in my sense of I'm— I've got integrity or I don't— broken agreements with yourself. And that's where it shows up personally, is broken agreements with yourself. So Like, even a broken agreement is, I'm not eating sugar anymore. And then you quit. I break the agreement. And now I feel like, oh, brother, come on. Can't you even do that? Right? Like, I did that during COVID I was like, what? I'm eating sugar? But it was a broken agreement. And I had to let myself off the hook. But if that was perpetual in my life, I would not have a lot of confidence. I would not take on a lot because I would know I wouldn't finish it. If you can just think about how it's been for you, and would you like your child to have a similar experience, or would you be willing to say, no, I actually want my child to have confidence. I want them to, them to know that they can and do achieve things, and that they can do and achieve anything is what the story becomes for all those kids I'm talking about in my studio. The reason they did was because they thought they could. And I— it was just remarkable. Like, when I got it, I was like, oh, you just believe in yourself, because time and time again you showed up, you did what you said you were going to do. And you know, the thing about being a piano teacher is what you're actually providing is, besides teaching, is you're providing weekly accountability. And when I said, hey, did you do everything? Did you keep your playlist? And they said yes, it was a win. Hey, good for you, you did it, you kept your word. That, that training just sets up a world of possibilities for people. I really believe that. So just consider where, where you are with it and what could be different for your child, if there's something different you want. And then you really have to look at who do I have to be for my child to, to live in a world of I'm— anything is possible and I am capable of anything I decide I want to do. Now I know, do you want to be president? I don't know. I used to want to be president, but you Can you be anything? Well, maybe you can, but you certainly can't if you quit.

That is so true. So what, what is the advice for a student who has been in that cycle? They try, they quit, they try, they quit. Now they're like, they're older and now they're trying things when people are, it seems more natural, more gifted. And so they now feel like I'm not good enough. How do you rebuild that confidence? So, you know, okay, we made this mistake. Oops. Okay, first child, second child, third child, whatever that is. We made that mistake. We don't want to do that again. What do you recommend to fix that situation?

Yeah, you know, and again, it's, it's a little harder when they're older, when we're talking about teenagers, because teenagers have already kind of made up their minds. But if you can give them, encourage them to do something small with a win attached. So, you know, it could even be, I don't know, it could be anything that you could just like an art class or something, something very low key, but something where you're pretty sure they could be successful. Something short-term with success built in, right? Not something that's gonna take 6 months to have an experience of I'm successful, something quick, a quick win. So I'd have to think about what that could be, but it could be a short-term class of some kind. It could be a weekend photography class or something that they're excited about that you maybe could talk them in to be excited about. Maybe they were excited about it in the past, but just encouraging things where there are wins built in almost, or quickly realize some kind of positive outcome, because the more they have a positive outcome, the more likely they're going to do something else. Because it releases all the good feeling hormones, right? When you have a win, you feel different. And so you just have to get a taste of that to be willing and interested in trying again.

That is amazing. So for our listeners, can you talk about who you can help or what you do and how they can reach you?

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Well, you can find me on my website, quitproofkids, Q-U-I-T, quitproofkids.com. And I have a program there, and you're welcome to go and grab it and participate in it. I also work with parenting archetype styles, which, which I mentioned. So I have a quiz, and I'll have to get that to Shellee, or I'll have something on my Quit Proof Kids website. So if you want to go take the parenting archetype style quiz and find out what is your personality type, and what is that— what are all the strengths, but then what does it potentially set up for you in terms of challenges with raising your kids? You can find me in my group Overdoers Anonymous on Facebook. I, and I'm happy to have a conversation with any one of you about what's going on and how you could potentially fix it. So I have a group program, I have a course, and of course I'm always happy to do one-on-one work if you've got a situation that just needs some love and care and attention. And you know, this is, this is a really, to me, a very, very important topic. So my heart is to help people figure this out because we're raising I know I used to hear this, we're raising the next generation, but we actually are. Yeah, it sounds so trite, right? You hear people say that, you're like, yeah, but, but we are. We're raising kids that are going to be, you know, grown-ups, and then what are their lives going to look like? What's the quality of their life? And in turn, what's the quality of all of our lives as our kids grow up? So it's very— it's, it's a big thing for me.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your time with us, and I will post, um, this all over social media because so many families are, are really struggling with this right now. So thank you so much for joining us.

My pleasure, Shellee. Thank you so much for having me. It was a fun conversation.