Mastering Test Prep: Podcast with Scott Clyburn

Hello, this is Shellee Howard, the CEO of College Ready and parent, is your Teen College Ready podcast. Today I have an amazing guest. For those of you who are wondering a little bit about tutoring, test prep, what does that look like? I'd like to welcome Scott— I knew I was going to butcher your last name. Can you help me with your last name?

Clyburn.

Clyburn. It's so simple. It's just how it sounds. So welcome, Scott, to the show. Thank you so much. Please go ahead and help our listeners understand a little bit about who you are and how you can help.

Yeah, thank you, Shellee Howard, for inviting me, uh, to speak with you today. So my name is Scott Clyburn. I started a tutoring company called North Avenue Education in 2013. Before that, I was an academic. I have my undergrad degree from the University of Virginia, and I went to grad school at Yale University. I was going to be a, you know, an academic in religious studies. That was my field. And I kind of got pulled back into the world of K-12 just through my interactions with students, and especially the students that I saw really struggling to kind of take charge of their own learning, those, those neurodiverse, uh, kids and those LD kids, kids with learning differences or disorders. I myself am ADHD, and I had to kind of, you know, pioneer or forge my own way, uh, as far as study habits and kind of excelling in academics and at school. And so I kind of have a passion for helping unlock the potential of those, of those other LD and ND kids, um, who are, who are figuring out their way and maybe they don't fit in a traditional box. Uh, so we— I started North Avenue Education in 2013. Uh, we focus on SAT, ACT prep, um, college admissions essays, study skills and executive function coaching, and AP and IB courses and exams. We have in-person and online tutors. We have two brick-and-mortar locations in the Portland metro area, Portland, Oregon, and we work with about, thousands of, about 2,000 students a year, um, uh, all over the country. Wow.

So did you all hear how quickly he said Yale? It was almost like, it was like an in-between breath. That's how my son does it when he talks about Harvard, or sometimes he'll just talk about Boston, right? It's the kids who have, or the, the young adults, I should say, or adults who don't really think that it was that big of a deal. It was just part of who I am. And I always find that so interesting about Ivy League people, at least the ones I have interacted with. And I remember when my son used to tell— people would say, so where do you go to college? And he goes, in Boston. Well, where in Boston? In Cambridge. Well, are you at Harvard? And they would be like, So you did the exact same thing where I felt like I'm going to have to pull out that yes, Yale was pretty impressive. I like to start out by asking something you kind of touched on, which is when you were in high school, did you know that you were going to be a tutor for the rest of your life?

No, but I did know that I was going to be in some sort of education. So my mom is a schoolteacher. She was a PE teacher, and then she was first, second, and third grade for years and years and years. And so I kind of saw that, that role of a public educator championed in my family. And, and I had a heart for, for just explaining things and wrestling with ideas from an early age. And so I knew that I was going to be involved in, in school and studies and, and teaching, broadly speaking, early on, but I didn't know it would take this exact form. I think what really pulled me into this again was that kind of, that, that amazing intimate dynamic where you sit one-on-one with a student and they've been banging their head against the wall for years maybe, and you're the person who kind of unlocks this concept for them or gives them a new study tool or strategy that really helps make them more effective. And efficient. Um, they get more sleep and they're happier and their parents aren't on their case every evening. Um, that's a pretty amazing thing.

The other thing that you, you talked about just so briefly is how, I think you said it, ADHD. Is that the one? Okay. So we have so many wonderful students in our program and, and they, they have brilliancy like you've never— I mean, I'm sure you see it, but like most people have never experienced, but But on one hand, they may be socially awkward. On one hand, they may be disorganized. On another hand, they just maybe— I call it shiny syndrome. Woo! Over here, over here. Right now, you kind of took your practice that way because it comes from part of who you are. Can you talk about what that was like growing up? Maybe so these, these parents can understand from now an adult what that was like, so they can feel what maybe their student might, might be feeling?

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great question, um, and really kind of just opens the door for me. So I, I was diagnosed with ADD, ADHD, I want to say in third grade, and I got on to medication pretty quickly. Um, I remember it was a, you know, trial and error, uh, process back then, you know, the dosage and the different, the different, um, options that we had. I think I was on Ritalin first and then Adderall, and the side effects were pretty, pretty terrible. So I definitely internalized a feeling or a sense of deficiency, like I wasn't like other kids, I wasn't good enough. But I've come to learn that it's actually a superpower. I'm a big— or I was a big X-Men and comics fan as a kid, and I like to kind of tell my kids that I work with today, you know, you're like a mutant in the normal world. The world was not made for you. You know, there's all these systems and structures that you have to exist in, and they're not playing to your strengths. But there are ways that you can tap into those strengths and structure your life and communicate to others to kind of manage expectations and, and, you know, so forth, to actually unleash that potential and unlock your, your superpowers. Because we are, you know, especially ADHD folks, we're really good at a really small but important set of things. Um, and when we do tap into that kind of like stimulus-driven hyperdrive focus, uh, we can accomplish pretty amazing things. Um, I think it's been one of the reasons that I'm, you know, successful as an entrepreneur and a businessman. Um, and I think that it's, it's really an amazing thing that a lot of kids can harness for their benefit if they know how.

I love that. That's such a positive way of saying it because many people come to me and they're like, their GPA— I know they have more inside of them. Their test score is just not representing how smart they are. And they don't want to take on leadership because they feel so socially like they can't lead themselves. How are they going to lead another? And they go down this check, check, check, check, check list. And I love all teenagers, so I know I'm an anomaly. Like, maybe you do as well, but they're my people. And when I hear an adult speaking of this and I see the child shrinking back again, hearing it from their parent, well-meaning, like they're trying to get help, it's just another level of, wait, I'm different. Something is not right. So how do you help that child? I mean, what does that even look like for a parent?

Yeah, so for a parent, I think the first thing is, uh, to be curious, to ask your student, uh, to kind of lead with their thoughts and their perspective and their experiences instead of kind of coming in and assuming that because they're younger or because they haven't lived as many years as you, uh, you're experiences and perspectives trump theirs. Um, so be curious. What is your kid experiencing? What is your kid thinking? Um, how do they see themselves in their world? What do they value? What's important to them? And then try to use those things, try to speak their language, uh, to, to, you know, encourage them maybe in a direction that they haven't even thought about for themselves. Um, a lot of times I hear— I have those consultations too with, with parents and students where the parent is talking for the student or talking over the student. And I see the student checking out or taking a backseat, I always try to talk directly to the student.

Me too.

You know, intake calls. Yeah, yeah, the student has to be— they are in the driver's seat. Um, they have to be. If they're not, you know, what we do with them isn't going to be effective. Uh, so, so it's really important that they, they kind of see themselves as the agent of their own, you know, change and their story. Um, and, and yeah. Take, take possession of their destiny?

So in our program, everything we do is custom to the student, and that's why our program's been so successful. And it started, you know, all the way back from— I'm, I'm an entrepreneur and we solve problems. Well, if the problem is to get into Harvard, and how do we make that solution? We reverse engineer how we're going to get into Harvard. Like, for me, it was a very plain business problem. And for most people, they get locked up in the emotional piece of it. And so I'm hearing you say you're very custom to the student as well. So what would that look like for a family who doesn't— maybe they've tried the standard sit down with a tutor or do online prep, or what does that look like in your program?

Yeah, so we always start with goal setting and kind of vision casting. For instance, in our City Skills and Executive Function Coaching program, there's a whole lesson devoted to what is— what does a healthy goal look like? How do you kind of view your time and your habits and your commitments in light of a goal? How do you then work to change and adapt your, your day-to-day routines and habits and systems and to align with that goal? Uh, so it starts with goal setting first and foremost. Uh, students again in the driver's seat, uh, and then the student gets to design their own sort of approach and their own methods, uh, to what's going to work, right? So if we're doing like an SAT program, we might say, hey, you know, for a lot of kids we've seen success with writing physical flashcards out. Does that work for you? Is that the kind of thing that you think would help, you know, get it stick for you? Oh no, I really like my iPad. I have this flashcard app on my iPad. Okay, great, let's use that. Um, so the student has to know themselves a little bit, and, you know, the tutor can— or coach can assist in that a little bit as well and get them to kind of ask questions they might have asked before. Um, but I think it's just a matter of adapting the curriculum and the material and the methods to what is going to be most intuitive for that student. What is that student going to gravitate to, to, and like grab and start to do themselves versus like, you know, if it's something that's they just feel guilty about not doing, that's not going to help. That's not going to really get them to change and devote more time and energy and mental focus to it. So it's got to come from within. It's got to be something that they find is aligned with their natural, you know, inclinations and dispositions. I'm big on, you know, working with and not against nature.

Hmm. One more question and we'll switch gears. What does success look like for that student?

Hmm, yeah, that's another thing that's determined by the student and the family. Um, so for some students it could be a 250-point SAT increase. For some students it could be just getting all the geometry questions right. Uh, for another student it could be getting into a particular school. Maybe they have, you know, their parent is an alma mater at some particular school and they really want to go to that one school. So it's different for every kid, but we try to make it just like clear and concrete. We try to put you know, try to make it quantifiable if possible. Set a, a timeline or a deadline on it, um, and then chart out and chunk out those steps that you need to take in order to accomplish it.

Beautiful. I love specific and measurable goals. We're big fans over here. Let's pivot a little bit now to probably my favorite question when I ask a family that I've not met before, and I will say Is testing really optional? Answer that.

Yeah, that's a great question. That's the million-dollar question, really. Um, so I think there are some schools that are very earnest about their test-optional approach and philosophy and policy. Um, I've heard these, these, uh, you know, enrollment managers talk at conferences, uh, about their holistic, you know, test-optional approach, and it seems that the tests play a very little, a very small role in their, you know, overall consideration. I've heard other enrollment managers talk about being test-optional in a way that makes me think you should probably rebrand as test-suggested or test-recommended, because it seems like they play a pretty important role in your holistic admissions process. And, you know, we've seen Schools like Johns Hopkins this past week, uh, standardized testing as part of a quote-unquote holistic admissions process. I mean, they really do believe that testing can be holistic. Rice University is, uh, now test recommended, so they're very transparent in their language about what, what tests, uh, symbolize and represent to them and why they think students should be submitting scores even if they're not required. So I think it depends, you know, and that's where a coach or advisor like you comes in and really helps students navigate this complexity. There's so many different iterations and options, and test optional is not a one-size-fits-all policy for every school that wields it or administers it. So students have to understand the differences.

Yeah, you answered that so politically correct. Well done. I answered a little differently, and we agree on the end result, but I tell students this: I live in California. My son went to UC San Diego Medical School. He's an orthopedic surgeon at UCLA. There's nothing wrong with them saying it's optional, except for when my students write about it in an essay that they worked hard to get a 36 on their ACT. Now, how optional is it? You cannot read it and not let it hit your subconscious somewhere as you're reviewing this application. So I, I like families to understand the more we give that decision maker, the better their chances. The more we hold back, they have to guess and fill in the, the gap. So we come to the same conclusion. And then just like you said, I mean, Johns Hopkins just jumped off that optional situation. And I tell my kids, I said, listen, If you think that it's not going to change between today and the day you graduate, you're kidding yourself, and you can't pivot fast enough in this world. And then I'm also going to give a huge shout out for test prep people like yourself, in that you help me get them massive scholarships. Yeah, yeah, that test prep is ma— I mean, last year we had, uh, 29 seniors get $9.2 million in scholarships. Every one of them had a test score. So if you think that's optional, then so is scholarships, I suppose. So I love the fact that you come at it from a very politically correct place, and I come at it from, this is what I saw last year, and let me help you understand who got in. So let's talk about how would a student know if the SAT is better or the ACT is better? Big question.

Yeah, that is a question that we get routinely from parents. Um, so the, uh, the state of Oregon actually recently started administering the Pre-ACT as their kind of, you know, standardized exam for sophomores. And so now we have a lot of kids coming in with ACT scores and they haven't had the chance to take the SAT yet or PSAT. So one of the first things that we do, we provide all students with free baseline tests. So you can come and take a full-length SAT, a full-length ACT through us. We'll help you understand your scores and walk through the trends. We have a fact sheet that helps unpack the differences between the SAT and the ACT. But the big picture is the SAT is adaptive. The SAT is a little shorter. It gives you more time per question. Its reading is a little more challenging, more focused on vocabulary and historical documents. The math is more focused on word problems and fundamental algebra. The ACT is a little longer, it's more straightforward, but you have to go more quickly. It's not adaptive, it's linear, meaning all the students take the same exact version of the test. There is more, there's a wider range of topics in the math section. It's not necessarily harder, but there you'll have to memorize and review more items. So if you're one of those students who has a prodigious memory and you're really good at kind of internalizing, you know, a lot of material, well, ACT Math could be good for you. If you're someone who needs to go deep and kind of work with a smaller set of principles, then maybe SAT Math would be a better fit. So there's a few different components that you can look at. I always like to start with a set of baseline scores so we can, we can be data-driven in how we make the, the recommendation to students. But more often than not, there is one test that students are you're already performing better on. And you can, you can look and see the trends and say, oh, I can see how we can really push the score higher. I think there's more room to gain or more potential to unlock here rather than over here. So that's one of the kind of biggest and most important roles that we play with students.

I love that. Well, of course, what follows that is always when, and I want to ask it differently. I had a student this past year who was a freshman, and she was very, very advanced. I always have to preface it like that. And I suggested she take the ACT now. Don't wait and have to reteach yourself, right? She got a perfect 36 her freshman year the first time she took it. That is a unique thing, I understand. But how do you answer a family when they said, when Should we take it?

Yeah, you called out the, the most important thing, Shellee, which is that the student has to have completed enough math. So if they are in advanced math track, that could happen earlier. The national norm is that that happens around junior year. So for both SAT and ACT, students have to have completed Algebra 2. In some of the public schools around here, they call that Algebra 3-4.. And, uh, that is a base minimum, uh, that a level of content mastery that all students need to, to take the full-length SAT or the ACT. It's not necessary for the PSAT or the pre-ACT, but it is for the, for the SAT or the ACT. So that's the first thing I ask is, what math class are you in, or what math class have you just recently completed? Um, and the next thing is, are you a reader? How strong is your vocabulary? Do we need to work on that? Because that's not something that happens overnight. You know, you can, you can review grammar and math in a relatively short amount of time, let's say a month or 3 months, but improving reading comprehension, which hinges on improving vocabulary, takes a lot longer. So the younger students, I, I have to be careful with because a lot of times they are in advanced math tracks, um, and maybe they've taken geometry over the summer online, or maybe they've skipped a grade. But their reading comprehension isn't there because they just haven't quite, quite gotten to that level of, you know, of an AP English or an IB English class where they've really had to wrestle with some challenging texts.

Yeah, it is so unique, so individual. You cannot just blanket this. Just, just like college planning, there's— it has to be custom to the student. I remember when my firstborn said, Mom— and he got all A's and he took hard classes— and he says, Mom, I don't need test strategy. I don't need a tutor. I, I don't— I'm good. Don't waste your money. You're going to love this story. And so I said, awesome, great, save me some money, I love it. And he's like, um, just buy me one of those books, Barron's or whatever. Bought him the book. First time I went up to check on him, sleeping on the book. I'm like, that is not exactly how you're going to get this material. No, no, Mom, I got this. Next time I check on him, he's on his bed sleeping on the book. He then goes and takes the first, uh, SAT and bombs it. I'm like, tears. I'm stupid. This is a kid with a 4.6 GPA. I'm so stupid. And then I'm like, would you like to learn how to do it properly? And he's like, oh, what's the point? And he did, and I you know, convinced him how important Test Strategy was as an investment of his future. The positive thing is he increased his SAT by 300 points, got him from a state school to a UC, and then on to Harvard. So, you know what I mean? So I'm, I'm singing your praises is basically what I'm saying, because parents don't quite understand that It's not just their IQ, right? It's also how you beat the test. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a playbook to these tests, and unfortunately it's not taught very well in schools. Um, but it's the sort of thing, like you said, uh, you know, testing is, like it or hate it, uh, part of our society, part of our, our kind of school, you know, structures and systems. And so a kid who is going on to professional school or, you know, medical school, law school, MBA, etc., uh, they're going to have to take quite a few tests in their academic career. And so it's, it's the kind of skill set that will pay dividends if you invest in it early. Um, but it involves things— understanding things like question design, test design, uh, why have they written it this way and not that way? What do the answers contain? How, how are they framed? How do you kind of wade through them and, and understand, you know, what this one is trying to get you to think or choose versus that one, uh, all the way to like pacing and elimination strategy, um, all the way to very specific content-specific strategies like math on the, uh, the new SAT, the digital SAT. We do a lot with Desmos, the embedded on-screen calculator. It's very, very powerful. Some students have done it in their schools that some, some teachers have kind of geeked out on, on Desmos and and taught them a few things, but most students haven't. Most students are still using their handheld graphing calculators from Texas Instruments, and, uh, the way of the future is, is on-screen computer-based calculators. And if you don't know how to use Desmos, you're not going to do as well as the next kid on SAT Math.

Wow, it's so powerful. As a parent, I mean, thank goodness all mine are in, out, done, but as a parent, my heart was thinking, I don't know if my child, um, is learning that Desmos thing. I'm gonna go ask them. So So parents, this is the resources that I love to share with you. So Scott, how can somebody, uh, continue this conversation with you?

Yeah, absolutely. So our website is northaveeducation.com. That's North Ave Education spelled out dot com. Uh, you can see our tutors there, you can see all of our service offerings, uh, you can book a consult with me. There's also a static URL that you can go to, a Bitly URL, bit.ly tutoring-consult to book a time with me so we can chat more, understand your student's unique needs and how we might be able to help. We're also available, uh, to follow and, and connect with on social media. Our handle is North Ave Ed, N-O-R-T-H-A-V-E-E-D.

Outstanding. Well, thank you so much. And listeners, I am so grateful for all of you, and I know that you listen because you're a parent who cares. So thank you and have a wonderful day.