Drownproof: Eight Life Lessons to Keep Your Head Above Water

This show is powered by Others Over Self. Hit that subscribe button to keep training your brain. For me, money is a tool, honestly, to be able to say no. And by saying no, I take further control over my time, which is really the only thing that I want to use money as a tool for, is the ability to do the things that I want to with the people that I care about the most deeply.

From Others Over Self, it's Hardcore and at Ease, a show about people who are keeping their edge without going over the edge.

I'm host Shelly Rood.

Ambitious people like us rarely put the full cost of our own choices down on paper. Today's guest did, a man who spent 17 years as a Navy SEAL, 6 of those on SEAL Team 6. Took a bullet on deployment, set 2 world records skydiving to raise money for his fellow SEALs. Andy Stumpf writes in his own book about what his ambition cost his marriage and his kids the first time around. We explore the new mindset he's building as he approaches 50. This is Hardcore and At Ease. One year ago, I sat down at this desk and I hit record for the first time. I always knew that people would be listening. What I didn't know was what this show would become once it had a life of its own. Once 54 episodes were stacked on top of each other and the shape that those episodes take when you zoom out.

Well, I couldn't have imagined that if I had written it on a whiteboard that long ago.

Today closes out season 1 for us, and I wanted the last interview of our first year To come from someone who wouldn't hand me a neat and tidy conversation. Andy Stumpf spent 17 years as a Navy SEAL, 6 of those on SEAL Team 6. An Iraqi insurgent shot him at close range on a combat deployment. Doctors told him he might never walk the same way again. He persisted and later set 2 world records skydiving out of a plane at 36,500 feet. To raise $750,000 for the Navy SEAL Foundation. His book, Drown Proof: 8 Life Lessons to Keep Your Head Above Water— it's a New York Times bestseller with a foreword from Jocko Willink. I want to sit with those credentials for a second before I say anything else. You see, most of us will never know what it means to have someone lift a rifle in the dark and pull the trigger. Andy does. And that earns a level of respect that this show doesn't hand out lightly. And getting to close out our first year with his story, with him in that chair right across from me, it's one of the honors that I've had this entire first year. Now, what I keep turning over after we finished recording is what he says matters most to him now. You see, he told me that if he listed his life in order, husband and father would go to the top of the page and everything I just told you— the SEAL teams, the record jumps, the book— well, that all goes to the bottom. And I believe him, as you'll hear for yourself in just a moment. I also noticed that a man who spent most of his adult life chasing danger, by his own description, is only arriving at that answer now, later, after the fact, as he approaches 50. That truth is worth sitting with instead of just trying to resolve it. A lot of us say the people we love matter the most right after we've spent years proving with our actions that something else came first. And I include myself in that list. I built a career and I let the cost of it be my first marriage. So this isn't a question that I'm asking Andy from the outside. This isn't a clean interview. Andy says, "I don't know," more than almost anyone that I've had in this chair. But a conversation doesn't have to be clean to be worth sharing. Some of the most honest ones aren't. Here's my conversation with Andy Stumpf.

I was in California until about 9 years ago, and now I live up in the northwestern corner of Montana.

Oh, I don't think I realized that. I heard you talking about the hunting that was out there and you were living the dream getting into Montana. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't— I can't foresee any reason why I would ever leave at this point.

And I've never been there. So what is it about Montana that you've just fallen in love with?

You know, they call it the Big Sky State, which I didn't realize was literal, but given the vast open area of the state and that difference in topography and geography, it's pretty impressive just being able to kind of get out a little bit from civilization, as I'm sure you know, and just kind of marvel at the, uh, at the world around you. And Montana is a pretty good spot for that.

I feel like, um, in your book you mentioned that you actually said, I'm not a spiritual person. And that's so interesting to me because I feel like there's so many layers just within you, within your reading and the podcast that you do and how much you do share it with the world. And just to be in a place like Montana, I, you know, I would just wonder if there's not something of the spiritual world that's calling to you already. 'Cause I can't imagine what it would be like to be out there and, and feel like you're not a spiritual person.

Yeah. You know, for me, religion or spirituality, however people would wanna describe it, I am a total fan of people having whatever beliefs that they want to. And I, and the, the best I can always do is just be honest. And when it comes to religion or spirituality with me, it's just never landed with me. Um, I would have to call myself agnostic at best. I just don't know. Um, I don't know either way. I'm very deeply envious of some of the faith that people have. I just personally have never had that level of faith, nor am I willing to pretend or fake as if I do. And having said that, maybe that just means that it's not my time yet. You know, and that it hasn't landed with me. And it's not that I'm not open to changing how I feel, but my promise always is to just be honest about how it is I am currently feeling. And it just, maybe it just hasn't been my time.

That's such an honest perspective. And it's one that I hear a lot. You know, I work and have conversations in the military realm and with veterans constantly. And I would say the majority of them would also say they are not spiritual people. And so to even be able to say something to that answer, it just, it shows the depth of you as an intellectual. Because you've done so much with your body and testing the motivation and the discipline of what the human body can do. And I know you've done incredible exercises with your mind and pushing that as well. And I almost feel as Andy Stumpf approaches his 50s, 60s, 70s and what's to come, I wonder if spirituality is not that great big, huge next pillar for him to start to ask some questions around.

Maybe. I don't know if I would use the term intellectual when you're talking about me. I think that for me at least, and I wish a lot more people would get comfortable with answering a variety of questions with, I don't know, because I don't know. I think intellectuals oftentimes either explore or find answers to things. And it's not that I don't attempt to do so. I just don't know. I don't have that level of certainty with a lot of things. So I, yeah, I don't know if I'm an intellectual by any stretch.

Was that I wonder how much that has to do with the conversations that you have in your podcast, because you've shifted mediums into— instead of just having the guest conversations, now you're answering questions that are coming in from your listeners, and they are very, very different types of questions. Today I was listening to a series that you were answering specifically on relationships and people coming to you asking for relationship advice. I mean, that must feel interesting, different, unique as a podcast. Guest and host to be able to give advice in places where, like you already said, you don't quite feel qualified?

I try to give less advice and more just like— if you're talking about the episode from today, the first question was from a woman who was considering— they had been in a 17-year marriage, gotten divorced, and they were considering trying to give it another go. And I happen to know 4 couples, 2 of which that were successful in doing that and 2 of which that were unsuccessful. So instead of actually giving advice, I just tried to break down what it is that I had seen in those couples. And I had to do some assumptions. I was clear about that. I had to make some assumptions because I didn't directly talk with them about their experiences. So it was from an outside perspective and an outside lens. I feel comfortable doing that, and I feel comfortable talking about the experiences that I have had. It is very humbling when people will reach out and ask for your opinion, but I always try to be exceptionally careful when I talk to people about where the limit of my experience ends when I am making an assumption, when I am talking about something that I have seen. I will give advice in certain areas if I feel qualified to do so. But a lot of it is just more than anything recalling or retelling things that I have seen in my life, trying not to give advice.

Trying not to give advice. And in the roundabout way, you allow that advice to happen. I think you were referencing the therapist. Who said that relationships don't have to be easy, but they also shouldn't be this hard. That was phenomenal.

Yeah, it's, uh, I've worked with enough therapists and counselors and they're not supposed to tell you what to do, but they will sometimes say things like that, which wasn't exactly explicit, but it was pretty clear what they were trying to say as well. And so that's why I just repeated it again through my own experience of working with counselors, both ones that I connected with well and ones that I didn't. So again, it's less advice-based and more just experience-based than that, you know, the time I've been around.

So our audience is a combination of my own followers and also Veterans Radio. So in that aspect of it, we have a lot of different backgrounds. And for those that are unfamiliar with the Andy Stumpf, could you walk me through a little bit of your entrepreneurial background? Because, I mean, you can share the military side of it as well. Most people are familiar with that. But I, I truly do want to know a little bit more from your entrepreneurial spirit, things you've tried and worked on and dipped your toes in. And, you know, I know writing a book for you is a stretch. I'm excited to hear about that decision and how it's going for you.

Yeah, I don't know if I would consider myself to be an entrepreneur. I have a business now, a brick-and-mortar business, which is the first jump in or cannonball into that type of pool. I own a coffee shop where I live up in Kalispell, Montana, which has been an interesting journey. And I think most people would say that would make you an entrepreneur. I guess when I hear that term, I often think of people involved in a variety of different businesses. Like the podcast I host, I don't, I don't really even look at that as a business. I mean, it can generate revenue from advertisement sales or sponsorship stuff, but I don't, I don't do it for that by any stretch. And I try to reinvest the money that I make from that into that. I do a good amount of public speaking, but again, I don't know if I would consider that entrepreneurial. I consider that more educational in nature. I love Teaching. I love trying to take past experiences and to do something with it currently and apply those lessons to other people. What else do I have going on? Man, participate in jiu-jitsu, but that's as a personal hobby. I fly a helicopter, but again, that's a personal thing, not necessarily an entrepreneurial thing. My life is kind of a mess in many of those ways. I just pursue the things that I'm interested in. And oftentimes the economics of what I'm doing is the last thing that I consider, if at all, actually, which is probably not. A good entrepreneurial approach.

And when you say the economic factors of what you're doing, you're talking about your ability to make a living, to pay your bills, to have an income.

Yeah. The, the monetary nature behind the things that I do is almost always the last thing that I consider. And sometimes, depending on what the activity may be, I don't consider it at all.

Do you think that— I mean, your children are grown and they're out of the house at this point. Do you think that has any weight on your ability to live the life that you're living now?

No. I mean, I have been pursuing things that have interested me. My oldest daughter still lives with us right now. My middle son is in college in Bozeman. My oldest son lives with his mom. Even when all of us were under the same roof, I still— my life professionally moved in many different directions, and I would pursue things that interested me. Perhaps then I would say maybe the economic aspect of it was a rung or two higher up the ladder, but it was never the sole determining factor. And that is because there were times earlier in my life where it was all I was concerned with. And I have proven to myself time and time again, especially as a younger man, that I'm not always capable of making the best decisions around that. And I found as I got older and as I got more experience and just some more laps in making decisions when it came to money, that I was better served pursuing things that I found enrichment in. And I mean that personally, not professionally.

I almost feel like that's a layer that a lot of veterans specifically struggle with. Sometimes when we are in the military, the income that comes from that, and then, you know, your, your 401 can be taken care of and your healthcare can be taken care of. And just managing money in general seems to be like a huge thorn in the side for a lot of our, a lot of our brethren here.

Yeah, I, I think what I would say to people is examine your relationship with it. Mine has shifted over time. When I was younger, I think I viewed money as a way to acquire things, and I don't think that's uncommon at all. And I'm not saying that that is negative because that makes some people tick. But for me, the acquisition of things doesn't make me tick, especially as I get older. For me, money is a tool, honestly, to be able to say no. And by saying no, I take further control over my time, which is really the only thing that I want to use money as a tool for, is the ability to do the things that I want to with the people that I care about the most deeply.

Where do you feel like this book is going to take you with the time coming up?

I don't know. It remains to be seen. The success of it right out of the gate was really nice. A lot of public speaking inquiries came from that and continue to come in, which is also nice. That's, that's probably the realm where the economics and the personal enrichment— again, enrichment meaning, meaning I feel like I am giving back and passing lessons on, not a bank account number. In that environment, they both align. But I don't, I don't necessarily know. What I have enjoyed are the hundreds of messages that I've received from people who have read the book and said essentially a version of, thank you for writing this. I found it at a time in my life where I needed it, or I was dealing with something or working my way through something, and I didn't have an appropriate tool for the job. And something I found in your book helped me successfully navigate that time period. To me, that's way more valuable than a check.

And I get that sense right off the beginning of the book. You say you don't want it to be another Navy SEAL book. And even though there's a couple of references into your military time, a lot of the stories shared in here are not military stories. There's a lot of BASE jumping and skydiving. Do you want to give our listener just a little view over what's included? So the book is called Drown Proof. Yeah.

I mean, the SEAL books have all been written, and I know most of the people that have written them. And I was never on, you know, the combat operations or doing the things that they wrote those books about. And if people want to hear that stuff, the medium already exists. So I did have a very direct intention to not write another one of those types of books. I say that without judgment of that type of book, but that's, that's just not the book that I wanted to write. Um, and instead I wanted to take the lessons that were refined into me or the tools that were refined over a career and try to impart that on people. In terms or in situations or through experiences or examples in my own life that they could, as opposed to having to go through, which was largely painful experiences to learn those lessons or to refine those tools, they could at least hopefully take the learning points from that. So yes, you know, I mean, I spent 17 years in the SEAL community. Yes, that's always going to be a bullet point on my resume. It's like at the bottom of the page at this point. Um, but it's still going to be there. I understand why people are interested in that and they're curious about it, but I wanted the book to be more than just that, just like I want my life to be more than just the 17 years that I spent in that community. Not that I'm not proud of that, I just don't want to only be known for that.

Absolutely. Well, you say that that might be the bullet at the bottom of the page. So what are the bullets that are getting stacked on top of that?

Is it what we were talking about with the coffee shop and the kids and Yeah, I mean, I haven't had to create a resume, you know, in many years. I've worked for myself now for over a decade, so it's not like I'm applying for jobs or have one that's up to date. But the reality is, to me, when I'm talking about that, I'm talking more in terms of things that are meaningful to me. And at the top of that would be a husband and father. And then all the business stuff, I really don't care that much about it. People would want me to put on there, you know, New York Times bestselling author. Okay, cool. That could go on there somewhere too. You could do the podcast. You could, You know, I work with a variety of organizations at state and federal levels trying to give back when I can. And yeah, somewhere, you know, the aviation experience, all that stuff would be on there. But if I did it in sequential order, yeah, being a SEAL would be on the bottom of the page.

Now, there are some lessons in here that I want to ask you about, if that would be all right. So in this chapter of the book, you say if you want to turn yourself into a beast that'll keep its head above water, to truly define being drownproof, You'll need to learn to do more than just work hard. You must learn how to ask for help. Really help. You must learn how to ask for help. And this in particular talks about your relationship with Dave. And there's a lot of veterans that are living that out on the daily. Just before I hit record here and came on to talk with you, I did a chaplain call at a hospital with a female veteran who is living through the aftereffects of the burn pits. And I was only there because she called me and she said, "Will you come visit me?" And that, that was her quite literally asking, asking for help. You know that we like to go into solitude and we like to isolate, especially when things aren't wonderful in our lives. Why did you choose to include this in here?

Because it's true. I mean, the most capable people that I know in the world that I came from that were able to accomplish things that I still struggle to describe at times, never did so by themselves, and they never attempted to do so by themselves. They were aware of the limits of their physical capabilities, their mental capabilities, their performance thresholds and variables. And they were the first people to reach out and collaborate and ask for help when needed. And I don't know why or when asking for help started being viewed in any way, shape, or form as a, as a metric of weakness, because it shouldn't be. And the strongest people that I know, they are the ones who are the most likely to ask for help.. And I think we need to reinforce that until the narrative around asking for help changes.

I know with this particular story, it talks about alcohol, and you also share your lived experience, which is the same as mine, around alcohol in the military and how it's both condemned and you can get in trouble for it, and it's also celebrated and deeply ingrained in the culture.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting when you get your Friday safety brief from the operations officer and he says, don't get a DUI and be responsible and don't drink and drive. And you know, there's metric, you know, here's a card to get a free taxi. And you know what I mean, it's the fastest way out of the community. But hey, the kegger starts at the, you know, at the Grinder at noon. And new guys, make sure you're not the first people to leave. It's like, dude, I drove here. How do you want me to live up to your guidance at the same time I'm not supposed to leave the kegger first? My participation is somehow mandatory, even though it doesn't say that in doctrine. But everybody at the command knows you don't want to be the first person leaving, especially if you're a new guy. So it's It's quite a dichotomy and a balance for sure.

What's your advice that you have to those that are either, you know, in the military now, like, yeah, Andy, that's exactly what we're going through. Or, you know, to those who are the veterans who are on the outside of life and they're wondering, why is this not true here? You know, why am I getting punished? Or why is it a bad thing for me to be going to the bar as often as I was?

I would just say stay true to who you are. I think almost always people know when things are getting off the rails. They can intuitively feel it. And that's another good— it can tie back to one of your previous questions about asking for help. The people, the strongest people that I know, when they encountered a situation or found themselves slowly working themselves into a situation where it was getting out of control, they asked for help. And it's so easy, especially earlier in your career, to feel like you have to do the things culturally to fit in in your element. And there's a time and place for all of that. But at no point in time should you be butting up against your morals. It's completely and utterly okay to say no. And it's completely and utterly okay for people to have a negative reaction to that because that's going to pass. What isn't going to pass is if you do something even though you didn't want to and you find yourself in a situation where it alters the trajectory of your career or your life. So stay true to who you are.

Have you really found that people can listen to their own intuition and they know when things are going too far.

Yeah. I think at the end of the day, a lot of people, especially if you can catch them in a reflective or an objective moment, I think it's anomalous when they can't understand that things are going awry. They may not be able to define it in the moment, but they can feel it.

But they can, yeah, but they can feel it. So there's another part in here, this one in Refining Your Stroke. So this observation, it seems that life itself has become a competition. And here you're speaking more directly to the social media aspect of life. Now, you're an incredibly competitive man and competitive person, right? Your motivation of how to get me to do something is to tell me that I can't. So share with me your observation just of if life itself is becoming a competition, why is that a bad thing for a competitive person?

I don't think it has to be a bad thing. I think you have to manage it. If your entire life is comparing yourself to people that you see online that you don't know, and perhaps don't realize may not even be real in what it is that they're showing you, you can develop a very unhealthy relationship with competition. Because the reality is, in the world that we live in, digitally connected the way that we are, there's always going to be, be somebody who has more, who has accomplished more, that is farther down the road than you want to be, has what you want to have. Even as you ascend, we'll call it economic status. I know people who are millionaires and they feel poor in comparison to their friends who have tens of millions. I know people who have tens of millions of dollars and they feel poor when they're hanging out with people who have hundreds of millions. And you can keep going, hundreds of millions into billions, billions into multiple billions. This, the comparison over appreciation for what you have in the moment seems to be the fastest way to rob yourself of any level of joy that you're capable of. I think competition again can be healthy, Uh, and the way I view it is this, you know, one of the things I love doing is jiu-jitsu. And, you know, you wear a belt when you do jiu-jitsu and they come in a variety of colors and it's so easy to compare your journey based off the results of a 5-minute roll or a competition with somebody else that's in your gym. And you have to remember that people have different athletic abilities, different abilities to learn. Size and strength is a real thing, but the length of time that they have been training is a real thing. And there are just people that are better than you at certain things. And so if you consistently lose to the same person and you measure your success based off of that, you're missing the entire point. Because the question you should be asking yourself in jiu-jitsu is, how would I do rolling against myself from 6 months ago? Because it's an individual journey, and that gets lost when you are always externally competing.

It absolutely does. And now your wife shares that passion of mixed martial arts with you. Would you like to talk about her just a little bit? Because my audience is a lot of women veterans and we love to hear the stories of men who love strong women. And that's exactly what you have in your life.

She's a badass. She's down in Las Vegas right now putting herself out there at a jiu-jitsu competition. She has been at it for, oh, I wanna say 17 or 18 years. She was the first female black belt in Washington State. And was highly competitive on the way up. She won a national championship at blue belt. I believe she got second at purple belt. She now competes in the masters competition, which it's an age bracket. I think they start masters at 25 or something like that. She's won masters worlds a few times as a black belt. She's the head female coach at the gym I train at. She's the head evening coach at the gym I train at. It's just, it's awesome. And jiu-jitsu is, it's one of those few skills that can level the playing field a little bit. It's not magic. I hate it when people talk about that because size, strength, and athleticism is real for sure. But she is out there grinding it out, working hard, competing legitimately on a national stage. And it's awesome. I drive— or derive a lot of inspiration from the stuff that she does.

And I do as well. She's incredibly inspirational. Now, UFC Freedom 250, were you there on site? Did you watch it on TV? Where was your chair?

I was sitting on the couch. We watched portions of it. Again, I love the UFC. I've been to one UFC live, and honestly, even if invited to go back to another one, I appreciated the commentary and the better angle on TV than I did being there in person. It was so packed, it was hard to find a good angle, and I didn't realize how much I missed that expert commentary of the three panelists sitting there breaking down what's going on.

100%. My husband was just saying that about Formula One, how when you're Actually there at the race, you can't see the car once it goes around the corner. Yeah.

An eighth of a second. Yeah, it was. Even if we were at UFC 300. And so I was there when Justin Gaethje got just flatlined by Max Holloway. But we were so— but so— and we were invited there by the UFC, but— and a lot of people were. So we were up in the UFC suite, but there were hundreds of people there. And my wife and I were kind of packed into a corner and we were watching it from the back of a projection. So it was reverse and the crowd erupted. There's a slight delay from the camera. So the crowd erupted and then we watched it happen. It was just weird. I didn't even get to see it live, even though I was there live at the event.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in that room. I feel like fists would have been going all over. It was—

people were very animated. They had the reaction that you would expect for sure.

So what's coming up new for you? Obviously, the book is out. You've got some speaking gigs that you're trying to do. But if Andy could look ahead, to the next 6 months and just feel deeply fulfilled on his trajectory. Where's that path going?

I don't know. I'm deeply fulfilled right now. The last big goal that I had set for myself was getting the book published and doing all the things required for that. So I accomplished that. I really enjoy the things that I do now. I have a triangle that I try to stay inside of where I live. Well, that starts at the coffee shop. It goes over to the podcast studio. The jiu-jitsu gym is one block away. So I'm in a 3-block radius for most of my day. And I enjoy the things that I do, and I say no to the things that I don't want to do or that I don't enjoy doing. So I'm fulfilled right now. I know what I want to do with my life, or at least the impact that I want to have. I don't know how that's going to happen, and I am completely okay with that. I know that eventually I will figure out or take the opportunities as I see them, but until then, I'm not going to invest a lot of, uh, you know, mental horsepower worrying about it.

That's a really strong perspective to have. If you would unpack that for just a second with me, when you say you know the impact that you want to make in life, what is that?

I want to be a positive impact on the world around me. I want to try to do the best that I can to, in any way that I can, bring positivity or improvement to people's lives. And the book would be a good example of that. I wrote the book because I wanted to take the lessons that I had learned in a 17-year career that was from a lived experience perspective, mathematically impossible for most people to have achieved or experienced, and put that into a medium where they don't have to go through a selection course or crucibles over 17 years to learn those things. And hopefully, you know, it's, it's based around 8 life, 8 life lessons. I could have made that 30, but I thought that would have been too much. And I don't expect people to resonate with all 8. I think if you resonate with one and it can have a positive impact on your life, that's exactly what I'm going for. And that's why I say I care far less about the money and far more about the messages from people who found the book and it had a positive impact on their life.

How was the process of writing the book for you? Because you mentioned that you're much better in the spoken audible, and to actually take that and turn it into a book was a little bit of a challenge.

I found it to be super easy. I also did— I wasn't under an incredible timeline. It wasn't tight, so I had the ability to write what I wanted to. And then there would be times where I'd take a couple weeks off and I wouldn't write anything, and then days I would sit down and do 5,000 words. And I think the total book ended up being 76,000 or 77,000 words. The first draft was probably just over 100,000, and then I reduced away from that to try to make it a little bit more pointed and less rambly. And then the publisher, you know, they put it through editorial passes as well that help with not only grammar but They'll make content suggestions with which, as the author, you have the ability to rewrite or take the suggestion or not, essentially. But I had a lot of help as well when it came to even the layout, the COVID I mean, I don't know how to format a table of contents. So all of those things, other people helped me with those. But the process itself, I didn't find it to be difficult. I was not a good student in high school, not because of aptitude. It was because I just wasn't interested, but I always enjoyed my English class., and I've always enjoyed writing. So, and largely I found it to be quite enjoyable.

There is a portion of your blog, your old blog that you don't publish on anymore, but you chose to include some of those posts in here. I'm intrigued in that decision because I feel like as a content creator, sometimes we hesitate to do something or to put a hold on something and shift direction. And this is such a powerful example of how you can have something that you're proud of and that you've published in the past. And be able to repurpose it at some point in the future.

Well, and I also think that it gives people better insight as to who I am. I'm not trying to hide who I am or the blemishes or imperfections or the failures I've had as a person. And I think providing a little bit more insight into the author's beliefs or core values or morals or whatever people would use as the descriptive term, I think it endears them to the book more or the medium more as opposed to ignoring those things. And it's just, these are 8 light lessons, do these things because I'm I'm talking to you from the ivory tower of perfection. That's just not who I am. And, and, you know, and I looked at it from the perspective of somebody who consumes this type of book or books like this. I would find it interesting to learn more about who the author was, and, uh, so I just included it.

I'm glad that you did because it definitely gave me a deeper level of understanding of the man behind the experiences. And then you have a dedication in here to your children and also to your wife Leah, and you finish it by saying, "I would not have been capable of doing it without you." I got hung up on that word capable, Andy, because you are such a highly accomplished man. When you say, "I wouldn't have been capable of doing it without you," you know, I suppose, what is it that your spouse, your better half, brings to your life that gives you that additional ability?

I appreciate that you think I'm a highly capable person, but the reality is people only see what I choose to put up on the internet. And just like everybody else, I have my good days and I have my bad days, and I'm not navigating my way through life alone. There's days where I have greater motivation and less motivation. There are days where I want to do things and days when I don't want to do things, and more things in life that I have questions about than answers. And I need people to talk with those things about, to reassure me when I feel like I am over my skis. And for me, my wife is my main partner in life, and without her they're supporting me and sometimes picking up the slack for me so I could focus on that particular project above other things. It just wouldn't have been possible.

Now, with your podcast, do you think that you're going to continue the format of answering questions that come in from your listeners? Because that's very intriguing.

As long as they keep sending them. You know, my goal is to try to get the inbox to zero on the questions, which I have not been successful in doing. So as long as people keep sending them in, I'll keep answering them.

Is there, um, a favorite one or a stumper that you've gotten over the, the past while here?

I can't think of one. But again, I am very comfortable saying I don't know. And I also get to choose the questions that I answer. So if I really feel over my skis, I'm probably not going to select that question just for the point of putting up for a 5-minute little, you know, snippet or answer like, hey, I'm— here's the whole question. Oh, by the way, I just read this whole thing just to tell you that I don't know. I'm trying— I don't know who is served best by that. So I try to focus on ones where I feel like at least I have a— can have a little bit of a— of an input, which is the vast majority of them. And oftentimes they come in buckets where 4 questions will have a similar theme and then another 3 will. So that's a way for me to kind of compress and clear a little bit of the inbox out. But it doesn't show any indications of slowing down, so I don't know why I would stop.

It is great that people feel like they have a mentor and You know, over the years as we live our own struggles and questions, we're always looking for somebody to give us that good advice, right? You want somebody grounded, you want somebody who's lived a little bit of life, has somewhat of a shared perspective. And for you to be able to be that, that safety net for people is really special. I do what I can.

And again, I'm always very clear about if this is something that I've experienced, this is something that I have seen, this is something that I have knowledge in. And when it's not and what I make assumptions, because I do have to make assumptions sometimes. So I'm always clear on those things. And as I think, as long as I stay inside of that framework and I don't try to speak from this position of absolute authority because I am not one in any of the endeavors that I do now, I think I'll be okay.

I think you will too. Now, there's a portion in your book where you talk about a self-induced crisis, and you say that these are situations that are 100% optional. They're avoidable. You give the example of, I can't find my keys because I chose not to unpack myself the night before.

Totally. Yeah, they're everywhere. I have a place where I constantly put my car keys because I don't like having self-imposed crisis. And most of the time I line them up for myself because it'll be late at night or I'm running behind somewhere else and I rush. And instead of doing it right the first time, I'll haphazardly put them somewhere where I'm not paying attention to. And the next thing you know, the next day I'm a little bit short on time and I really need to get out of the house and I can't find my car keys. And I have absolutely nobody to blame but myself. And I do this to myself often, as I think most people do. It is my goal to reduce the number of times that I do that to myself.

What is it that your voice says in your head when you, you know that you shouldn't be in this situation, but you are?

Usually it is a question. And that question is, why are you such an idiot? You've done this so many times. Why do you keep doing this to yourself? If I'm being honest.

Well, I appreciate it so much, Andy. Thank you for spending time with me today. And I do have one final question before you go. I do have a 16-year-old boy myself, and I— we— you're right, I wrote down a list of things you and I have in common that I could kind of pick your brain on. Um, and so my, my son is a teenager, he's 16. I'm divorced from a, you know, Army Ranger, um, and all of the drama that ever comes with that type of situation. So my question to you is what advice would you give to my 16-year-old child? He's just a man out there trying to figure out who he is and what he wants to be in life.

Be patient. You don't have to have everything figured out in life when you're 16. And I think it's better to slowly approach things at a reasonable pace as opposed to diving in headlong and then try to work your way outside of that. There's this pressure on young men and women to have it all figured out. And I don't know where that comes from because most adults don't have it all figured out. And we, you know, we ask children of that age, what do you want to be when you grow up? I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I'm 48 years old. My life has been redefined so many different times through occupations or different directions that I've gone in life, whether it's relationships, personal and professional. And that's okay. And it's okay to not know what you want to do. I think it's more important to take your time to figure out who you are.

Who you are. And then what about the friendship route? You know, I ask this, yes, you know, through the lens of my 16-year-old child, but also through my veterans who really struggle to open up and lean into their friends and their friendship circles.

I would ask them why. Why do they struggle to open up? Well, depending on what the answer is, a lot of people will say, well, they— people won't understand. And that's bullshit. People can totally understand. Also, you can have an identity outside of your military service. I think the healthiest thing that people can do that are veterans is have a social circle that's completely outside of the veteran world and don't talk about their service with those people, which is not to diminish their service. It's just to remind you that you are not what you used to do. Who you are and what you did are very different things.

That's incredibly impactful. Thank you. And that is a soundbite that I am going to reuse 1,000 times over because our audience definitely needs to hear it.

And that's my conversation with Andy Stumpf. The money line lands first. Andy didn't refer to money as a way to acquire things. He called it a tool to say no. That, that right there is a version of wealth that's worth chasing. Here's a paradox that I want to leave open with us because I don't think that it's resolved cleanly in here. Andy told me that he doesn't want his whole life to be defined by 17 years in the SEAL Teams. And yet the book leads with it. The podcast that he has leads with it. My own introduction to this episode led with it. Now, actors know this problem very well. It's called typecasting. Owen Wilson spent several years cast in the same comedic role before audiences would let him carry anything with real weight. There's genuine value in being a label, in being known for something specific. And eventually, we owe it to ourselves to be more than that label.

Now think about this.

Would you have been as moved by a dad on this podcast just talking about being a dad? Or does it only land the way that it did today because it's a SEAL Team guy saying it?

I don't have a clean answer.

I lean on my own title the same way. Every time I introduce this show as a former Army captain, We're all doing some version of this, and none of it makes Andy any less deserving of the respect that his service earned. It just makes him human and same as the rest of us. There's one more thread that I want to name before I let you go. I asked Andy about his spiritual life in the first few minutes of the conversation, and I opened that question not expecting an answer. I opened it because holding a space for what a warrior believes, or perhaps hasn't worked out yet. Well, that's part of my calling as a chaplain. And he told me that he's comfortable saying he doesn't know. And he said it the same way that he told me he respects anyone's right to their own beliefs without his being pushed onto them. That honesty is beautiful. And asking that question took some bravery on my part, and I'm really glad I did ask it. I was struggling to find the words to close out my interview with Andy, because what do you even say to a man like this? After a lot of thinking, here's what I came up with. In February of 2005, you turned your head at the wrong second and you took a bullet that could have taken your leg. Instead of turning that into a Hollywood war story, you turned it into 2 world records and $750,000 raised for the ones who served beside you. Years later, you sat in the chair right across from me, and you told the truth about what that career and your ambition cost your marriage and your kids the first time around, before you got it right. That's not a generic guest, Andy. That's you being who you are, and this show is better for having had you in it.

All right, listener, this conversation gave you a reason to go and read the rest of it.

Grab Andy's book, Drown Proof: 8 Life Lessons to Keep Your Head Above Water.

You can pick it up at your favorite bookstore.

And if you want to go deeper into Andy's point of view, head to andystumpf.com. That's A-N-D-Y-S-T-U-M-P-F dot com.

And that link is in our show notes.

Well, that's all for now.

I'm Shelly Rood, and I'll see you next Tuesday for our huge year one anniversary celebration.

Until then, stay hardcore, be at ease, and trust the process.

You're listening to Hardcore and At Ease. Keep the conversation going at join.othersoverself.com.