Stop Forcing the Fit: When High-Quality Work Doesn't Get Results

This show is powered by Others over self. Hit that subscribe button to keep training your brain. Once we take the uniform off, we just seem to be lost because that sense of identity of who I am now and there has been many times that I have worn my veteran shirt, my veteran hat, and nobody says anything. But I can be in a sea of men who wear their hats or their shirt and be like, thank you for your service. And they'll be like, what about her?

From others over self. It's hardcore and at ease, A show about people who are keeping their edge without going over the edge. I'm host Shelly Rude and today's episode answers this question. Are we building something amazing amazing that people just aren't using well, our guest.

Is Autumn Hartpence, an Air Force veteran.

Completing her Ph.D. and we're discussing her case study that reveals why capable people reject support systems that were designed for them. We're exploring how leaders like you and I can ease our frustrations by being able to recognize when our perfect process is actually misaligned with the mission.

This is hardcore and at ease.

Are we building something amazing but people aren't using it? Are we creating support systems that sit empty? Are we designing programs based on what we genuinely believe people need? And yet the outcome still isn't what we've aimed for? And here's what keeps me up at night about this whole thing. As an ambitious leader, I've done high quality work. I know I have. I've poured everything into this. My time, my resources, my heart. I refuse to accept mediocrity. And still the outcome that I so deeply believed would happen just isn't materializing. If you've ever been there, lying awake knowing that you did the work right but you're not getting the results that you were certain would follow, then you.

Know exactly what I'm talking about.

So here's the question that we have to ask ourselves. When do we push through? And when do we completely redesign? This is what the final element of our framework, trust the process, actually looks like in real relationship. That's the outer white ring on the target. It's representing our faith and positive outcomes even when the path isn't clear. But here's where most people get it wrong. When we think about trusting the process, it's not about stubbornly defending the how. It's about staying absolutely committed to the why while being willing to completely reimagine the how. When we trust the process, when we maintain that long term view and belief in the mission, we can actually let go of our ego. We can release our attachment to being right about the solution that we designed, and instead we can focus on finding the best solution, even if it looks nothing like what we originally built. Now, that's where I found myself with our woman veteran strong program. We had the structure, we had the facilitators, we had the curriculum. But what we didn't have were women actually showing up consistently. And instead of doubling down on a failing strategy, we did something really uncomfortable. We stopped defending what we had built and we started asking why. That's why I asked Autumn Hartpence to join me today. Autumn and I share something beyond just wearing the uniform. We're both navigating this complex space of being veterans who are also caregivers. She's got a three year old and I've got my own crew at home. And we're both understanding these layers of identity that come with taking off the uniform while still carrying forward the leadership and the capability that we developed in our time in the military. Now, that shared understanding, it gave her very unique insight into this research. What Autumn discovered in this case study didn't just challenge our program. It challenged our fundamental assumptions about identity, belonging, and what support actually looks like. It forced us to let go of the how that we'd invested in and refocus on the why that really mattered. This isn't just a conversation about military women. This is about all of us as leaders who have had to choose between defending what we've built and and serving the mission that we believe in. Now we're going to hear some uncomfortable truths about the gap between what we think people need and what they're actually asking for. And more importantly, we're going to explore what it sounds like when we trust positive outcomes enough to release our grip on being right. And instead we find what actually works. Let's dive in.

Autumn Heart pens. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Now, Autumn is part of a military women's organization that has been working alongside me for many years at this point, and she's on her own path. Autumn, can you take just a minute and let us know where you are in your professional career and what you're aiming for? Because you've got a graduation coming up, don't you?

That is the goal. It seems like it's so close, yet so far just because of all the work that's entailed. And even in life there's that mentality of hurry up and wait. Because in my dissertation phase of my PhD program, to be able to interview, to make sure that collecting the research to support my paper, to make sure that my problem statement is valid, to bridge the gap, if you will, to support the future research, to answer those research questions. It's just those things because they ask those thought provoking questions of validation and am I seeking the permissions and what am I going to do for recruitment? And it's just that now I'm in the break period, so it's like, why am I waiting these three weeks? Why can't it be ongoing? This doesn't make sense to me. So the patience is a virtue at this point.

I am with you there. I remember as a senior in college, I was like, just let me go. Let me be free and change the world. But you know, it's a good thing that they just don't hand out PhDs to everybody, right?

Yes. But I'm a strategist, so it's like I've already done the planning. Like this isn't just, it's not med school. I'm not doing surgery on anyone. I am really just building off of other people's research just to make it stronger. So it's not like I'm reinventing the wheel. I am just building on into our future to just continue on the charge. Like what we do is in service members.

It absolutely is. So autumn is with us today as we enter a series in our target that we look for with our hardcore and addies framework. So as we start at the beginning with our tactical center, we're moving out to making sure that our ambitions are aligned with the world. We enter into the yellow blue ring, which is making sure that we really are utilizing the resources that we have as best as possible. And then you end up in the dark blue ring. And that's why I have a little dark blue pinstriping going on in my jacket today. Because the dark blue ring is for collaborative momentum. And that means that it's time for us to generate momentum with our ideas and to take it to the next level. We have to be partnering with super consumers or super users or people who are already in our industry and in our playing field, making a difference. And Autumn Heart pens, that's you.

As we kind of go on through this subject, just talk about a case study that I had been working on about women veterans and the kind of the foundation, especially putting on my academic hat going through this case study. One of the main points that I had put on for the hat in this case study is we don't do so much with hardcore effects because everybody's different. So we base upon theory. And so with women veterans, everybody's a little bit different. And so one of the things in there talk about how women fit into the mold of their service. And so I had called the case study invisible ranks. One of the first theories I had talked about was social identity theory, which explains how a group of membership shapes the self concepts. So male veterans often find their identity as reinforcements in traditional organizations, while women experience doubt, dismissal and visibility when it comes to undermining, identification invalidation to that sense of belonging. So you don't really see a whole lot of women veterans who are part of legions or the VFW or things like that. This is why you see like in the VA health, they have their own women's health as opposed to seeing in the overall arching of the VA system because of that sentence.

It is. And if you back up even further, a lot of our general listeners who don't play in this space may not even know or realize that women who have served in the military in any capacity, even if she's a combat veteran, typically does not identify with using the word veteran. And as Autumn is explaining, there's so much that goes into that, but the importance of allowing her to own that piece of her life really extends into so many layers of mental and physical wellness. So Autumn is presenting to us today a case study that I have asked her to prepare as we move forward with how to better serve our women veterans and even women who are currently in the military. Now, she specifically lives in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area, so that's where a lot of her case study is based on. But she's also finding that a lot of her findings are not specific to Michigan. So with that, Anam, I'm going to let you lead us through the case study. And if you want to tell me to pull up a certain visual for you, I'll make sure to do that behind the scenes.

So any kind of case study does on just population sampling, you just get a couple people that just kind of give you just a baseline of understanding as a just a group population to give you some basic research of understanding to build your case study off of. So if you go into the next slide for the table of contents, this just kind of really goes over just some of the things that the case study had discussed. And so just for a little bit of the background portion of it, we just kind of go through some basic information that most people are aware. If you kind of know anything about the veteran population, there's about between 17 to 18 million veterans in the United States and 2 million of them are women veterans. Now 2 million seems to be like a big number, but you know, as opposed to 17 million, it's not. So I joke with people like, if you happen to meet women veterans, you might as well meet a unicorn. And what's very interesting, when women veterans meet each other, it's like an unspoken communication. We just know without speaking to each other. It's like I get you to a level of understanding that nobody gets. And so as kind of going through this case study, of course, you know, as. Prof. For academics, you kind of go through the background, you go through the problem statement, like what is the problem? What are we trying to solve here? So the problem statement of course is like, why is women don't want to join women specific organizations? And so kind of going through talking with women. So there was 40 participants and I tried to keep it extremely diverse. So the earliest service was from 1974 all the way to 2024. So women who had served in 12 different conflicts just throughout the period of time, major conflicts of course, with you know, the Vietnam era to the Afghanistan, Iraq war, just various number of things. And so, you know, some women served two years, some had done lifers, and then you're talking about younger individuals, some that were married, some that had kids, some that had never married, some that had never had kids. So I tried to keep it extremely diverse to really kind of see where women are and their kind of background experiences. So as you can see the graphs, it shows the demographics of women that were interviewed and just kind of showed the relation. But the commonality that they had is the feedback they had given, they had talked about where they were at in life to cope with their experiences. So when they had come out of service, you know, if they had different experiences, what they had in relation to post service, you know, how they found this new sense of identity. Like myself, I served active duty for 14 years, so my entire adult life was military. And what's the first question you do when you get out of the military? What do I do now? Who am I now? And it didn't dawn on me until probably about a year later. It's like, you know, of course you're just kind of just tenacity person. Like I can figure it out, I can figure it out. It didn't actually dawn on me that I only had my 19 year old knowledge about life coming out in my early 30s. It didn't really dawn on me that that's the tools I had. So that's why I was struggling. So that's the really hard part about transitioning is we didn't think about the tools that we came in were not the tools that we had coming up. Our tools were rusty and out of date. And so a lot of that is.

Interesting because when we're living in the military, right, the military has a certain way, a certain language. And I'll never forget going on a job interview and the gentleman looked at me and said, you know, well, you, you're, you're in the military. Don't you think that will make you less creative? You won't be able to think outside of the box. And I remember looking at him and saying, with all due respect, sir, you couldn't be more wrong. And there is this skill set that we have, but like you said, they're rusty. They don't look the same way in the civilian world that they do in the military world.

Right. And so some people did not get these transition courses. I remember when I got out, my transition course was two weeks, 14 year career and a two week course to set me up on the back half. So the first year to condition me and basically create me to be emotionally unavailable, to be prepared for war because I joined right after 9, 11, so 19 years old, deployed pretty much within a year, couldn't even drink yet, but yet could go fight a war and then.

Doesn't mean you didn't drink in the military. I'm not going to shame you on that.

That's neither here nor there.

But.

And I remember sitting there with another airman who was only in for four years, and we're sitting there practicing, giving interview to each other and I'm thinking to myself, like, this is the most blind leading to blind exercise I have ever done in my entire life. And of course you're so like shaken by the complete change you're about to endure going back out in the civilian life. You're not thinking about what's going on in the moment. You're hardly retaining the information that's being fed to you. And I do remember that they're talking about resumes primarily for federal jobs, which I get it, because it's like a bad breakup. We're going to try to salvage whatever investment we poured into you by making you a DoD employee. Like we put all this effort into you and you're just going to give up, like, excuse me, I get it. But at the same time, this is the other theory that I had put into the case study is that sense of belong Theory is this is where the mental health aspect between, especially with men and women really starts to crack at the foundation is because you don't know where to place yourself. Because we come out with this militant personality in a culture that does not have militant environment. You come off as aggressive, you come off as assertive, intimidating in all these words that just make you displaced. And you're already displaced as a female as it is. So it just exasperates the mental health issues already on top of mental health issues that have already accumulated within the service.

So, Autumn, what you're sharing with us right now falls under the sense of belonging theory, where you really just are feeling like you're not fitting in in general.

Yes. And so this is where the adaptation, where women start to find other ways to cope. So this is where finding other things that make them feel belonging. So this was the motherhood, this is, you know, other peer support groups. This is where we start to close that chapter to where we don't identify with that veteran status and find other things to identify with. You know, being mothers, being entrepreneurs, being educators, being mentors, you know, churchgoers. Just finding new things that make us feel whole, which is part of the reason why we don't get into women veterans groups, because that's not who we are anymore. We've started a new chapter that is.

Very interesting that you're talking about. Why would I want to join a support group for something that I'm not anymore? You know, and the veteran title is, was never meant to be your only identity. It's meant to be a part of who you are and what you represent when you exit the military, close out your time in service and then, you know, move on to serve the world in other ways. And a lot of times some of us will cling to that as our only identity, and we see issues there. But then if you also don't embrace that identity and you try to block out that service time, that causes damage as well. Now, that's just one type of barrier that I know that you've really addressed in this case study. Can you mention for us some of these other barriers that you've really put some thought into and identified?

So some of the things, you know, like the cultural barriers, the social barriers, now some of the women who have chosen not to get married, not to have kids, like we had discussed before, if there's not ways to connect, there's no social identity. Now, talking about personal stories and personal identifications, me personally, I was in a very male heavy career field. There were very, very few women. I was a weapons loader. It was a very physical job. It was a very demanding job. A lot of physical living. My personal experiences with that. This is an Autumn story. The women I served with enlisted. It was not a good experience. Other women were not a good representation of positive life of women's service members because of the physical demand. They were not physically built for the job. I am actually on the taller side for women. I am athletically built. It's actually a very nice compliment when people meet me and I'll be like, you know, guess what branch they served? And they say marine first because of how they visually profile me. So as a compliment, you wish, Autumn. You wish.

Don't we all wish we were marines?

But I had to work so much harder to bypass additional stigma for other women I was working with because of their shortcomings and their performance in that particular field and because of their behavior, because of their ability. It was like, one fails, we all fail. And that wasn't fair to me. And so for 10 years of just that constant approval and I PCs a lot of times, so to be that new person and that negative experience of working with other women who fell short and it wasn't for a lack of trying. It just when you are working on high airplanes and you're five foot two, I'm like, I love your energy and I love your, you know, the gumption. But I'm sorry, if you can't reach, you can't reach.

You know, only one inch shorter than that. So now you can't.

And if you can't, if this thing weighs this much and you can't lift that much, of course these guys are going to be mad because they expect you to do the same amount to pull your weight. Because we work in teams. So that made it very difficult.

I love so much that we're giving you the space to share your personal story about this because that's a side of it where it sometimes it gets overlooked, right? Sometimes the push for everyone coming together and playing nice misses the fact that there is very difficult, very specific work that needs to be done. And that's why we have very rigorous standards in the military, Whether it's from height and weight or from a strength ptrt, which is physical readiness training. You really should be trying your all and your absolute best to be a peak performer, especially in the United States military. There is so much at stake. And so I love to hear the perspective from someone like you who really is at the forefront of performance and doesn't Want to be judged by peers that are not at that same level. That's very, very special. And I want to commend you not just the height thing, but also on your desire to raise that bar and keep it high. And I see that passion, and I feel that passion. And I love that you're continuing that passion into serving women veterans. Now, you've gone through a lot of personal growth over the last few years that I've known you, and I'm very interested in the findings that you came through this case study. We're talking about cultures that are misaligned. We're talking about just a lack of awareness overall. Take us through some of these points, will you?

So once we take the uniform off, we just seem to be lost, because that sense of identity of who I am now, and there has been many times that I have worn my veteran shirt, my veteran hats, and nobody says anything, but I can be with an AC of men who wear their hats or. Or their shirt and be like, thank.

You for your service.

And they'll be like, what about her? I have a tattoo. And still nothing. And the learning of that, too, is how many of our civilian family members wear apparel to support, you know, support our military members and veterans that we love. And it feels like we get almost diluted into that, into that support system to where it's just me and my daughter, but yet my married friends have to wear shirts that say, I'm the veteran. I'm not the veteran's wife. I found that completely condescending. But my married friends were like, well, I don't have to repeat it, like, 30 times a day. And I'm like, all right, that's fair. That's an absolute, fair statement.

So I love that difference of how we want to represent ourselves. And, you know, that fight for owning that veteran identity is very different whether you're married or not married or, you know, like you said, standing amongst a sea of people, we're all green, as we used to say in the military, but once you're out, man, I'm sorry. The veteran world is not green. And that is a really hard thing to watch and to try to be a player in.

Oh, oh, oh, I got one better for you. Look at green shirt says, veterans look like me. I just made it super simple for everybody that way. I love that, because that is a.

Battle that so many military women are fighting right now. I mean, we really do feel like for those of us that really want to own that identity, let's say we're going to A vet event. And they're like, wear your vet gear, right? We go and we put it on. Like, we love that. There needs to be things out there that exist that say that, well, we're.

Talking with these 40 women. They are actually okay with closing that chapter and moving on because there's so much more than that. They are actually at peace with that being a component of their life, component of their story. And there's so much more. So a couple. So two weeks ago I went to the veteran standout and I was working at the event and a friend of mine, his wife is a veteran and he was very upset that she does not. She's not more proud about being a veteran. And he was visually upset. Like, I don't know why she's not proud. She is my best friend. I am so proud of her and her service in the army. And I, I don't know why. She works mental health and the VA and I get her. She's. She's just exhausted of hearing the negative of people service that they just carry with them for life. I can't imagine to just absolve other people's problems continually in your profession that it's kind of like by 5:00, I am veteran doubt. And I can completely understand that. And not only that, but she recently lost. They. They're both veterans, but they recently lost their son to suicide. And what makes it very different is being her sister in arms. I don't know what to say to her because as much as being a mom and I want to reach out and love on her and be like, I am so sorry. Do you have someone that has all the training, who has had the experience, like, what do you say to the go to person who has all the knowledge, who has all the resources, who has heard all the words, there's nothing that will bring her son back. There is nothing that you could say to someone that will bring them the comfort that they need. And all I can do is like, when I see her is just hug her and cry with her. And as her peer that is and her friend, that is the best that I can give and that has nothing to do with service.

Auden, something that I'm hearing you say that is, I don't want to miss this because it's incredibly important. Sometimes just being there as a friend is a level of comfort and care and that checks the box. Military people, ambitious people, we really want to go fix the thing, right? We want to find that perfect solution and hand it to them. I don't Know if it's a need to be needed or a need to be needed.

Right.

Maybe it's pride, but sometimes we want to do the thing and fix it.

You can't fix a death by suicide. You can't fix just grief overall and.

The loss of a loved one. And I want to drive home to our listener that sometimes you just being there and being that source of constant love and support for someone is absolutely enough. And I know that you're applying that lesson to our women's group as well. That was one of your recommendations, is that we need to just quietly, consistently be there for each other long term. We don't have to take up the same battles. We don't have to lobby and march on Washington for the same things. But we do need to quietly and consistently care and love on each other.

So to kind of expand on that, we were talking yesterday about one of the women in the Grand Rapids chapter who is. Her health is just appearing. We're both prior Air Force. We don't want to talk about the Air Force. We want to talk about where we are in life now to really support each other. What would bring her comfort is where her accomplishments are. That will lift her spirits. Because all of the findings in that, you know, the lack of availability, the institutional distrust, the line that has come together has now blurred because of what I do professionally as well as personally has really taken that leap forward to help her and not only her mental healing, but her physical healing. To say that I will not only advocate you professionally, but I will be there for you mentally so that way it can give you the strength to get through this has nothing to do with our service. However, I want to add this in there, and I'm going to say this in a very general statement just because if we do have male listeners, what I've noticed working with male veterans is male veterans really like to talk about their military history, but they talk about it in a way that it is like their climactic part in their story. It is their highlight moment in their story. And this is why I kind of emphasized that it's a chapter in a woman's story, in a man's story. And I say this very generally because this is not all men, but it is some men. It's kind of like the big portion of their life story. And so kind of coming down to the findings of these things, when I talk to these women, I'm like, okay, so you've seen, you know, the gender bias and that, you know, it's really hard to get together with women's group because you have caregiving responsibilities. You know, you're taking care of your family, or you're tied up with your business, or you don't have transportation, or you just really kind of take care of your mental health before you pour it into someone else or you didn't know they were available. Like there's just other things that are just kind of not a good timing for you. It's what we were talking about, kind of the spectrum of need. Don't really need it right now. Maybe occasionally it does work monthly. I really, really need some serious mental health before I kind of have just a space of a peer support. It's just kind of where they're at in life. Does it really fit in to make it work for them?

So what we're talking about here is specifically peer support, which is two veterans that have this shared life experience just leaning into and supporting each other on their way through life. And what Autumn is recognizing is that there's a spectrum of need as to whether or not someone should be investing time in a peer support group or even one on one peer support. And I love this question because before engaging in a peer support group, that's a very common question that comes up is do I need a peer support group? I don't even know what a peer support is and it should be addressed. There's not enough of us talking about like, well, here's exactly what it is and here's what it can look like. And you're not wrong if you don't need peer support because hopefully what that means is that you're on this end of the spectrum where your life is very healthy and you have a wonderful support system. But it might also mean that you're on the other end of the spectrum where you are in crisis and peer support is not the best option to get you through crisis. You do need some fixers in there and that's where we want to go the clinical route. But peer support kind of sits in the middle of the two, if you will. And I kind of liken it to the relationship that you would have with your grandmother or maybe a trusted aunt or uncle. You know, they're not going to come pull your car to the ditch it to in the morning necessarily. But you know that they love you and she'll send you five bucks in a card and deep, deep down she gives you that deep love of knowing that you're there and that you matter to her. And sometimes that can make a world of difference to someone.

Yeah, and I love that hearing 40 women is a, is a large number, but hearing their story, especially those who have had experiences with mst, but we're able to go on and have really great marriages and raise sons and not let past experiences like that hinder them from having really good relationships with men in their life. And like kind of going back with my own personal relationship experiences with women in the military. So when I got out, I was perfectly comfortable in co ed spaces because that was the norm for me in my own workspace. And so it was the adaptability and being able to get to, to acclimate in transition was because I was comfortable in co ed spaces because I understood it.

A lot of women veterans that are not comfortable in co ed spaces and that's an interesting and unique issue that is not talked about enough.

Right. And so this kind of, and I was kind of reflecting after the fact, like kind of going back through especially when I got feedback. So at the end of the case study, I asked, you know, like, what do you think that you know, would be beneficial for like women led organizations? And so of course they gave me their feedback and I'm just kind of in my brain like laughing to myself. Like, everything they said women Veteranstrong already offers. And so it was kind of like you're so inclined to help other women and save other women. But I felt like if I got all these women in the room together, they would realize I'm like, do you really need saving though? Because nobody else, like you're fighting for somebody who's. I'm good at it. I found a way that works for me because my, I'm on the spectrum of like, I'm okay. I found my art therapy and I found my equine therapy and I garden and I knit and I, you know, I love being a grandma or, you know, I've got my three kids that just breathe life into me, even though it's chaos, but I love every second in it. And so I was thinking about it yesterday about like, I did great things from the military, but all my awards and all my accomplishments stuffed, all the stuff sitting in the boxes and just.

You sound like so many of us. Mine's in the closet.

Yeah. I said, you know, I don't even really entertain and stuff. I'm like, people come to my house. I'm like, unless, you know, you want to do imaginary adventures of paw patrol with me and my three year old, like, I won't talk about military with you. We'll do toddler stuff. That's what happens at my house. Come on over. That's where we are in life.

And I think that there is more of a spotlight, and this is my promise to you, to military women everywhere and to our nation, is that we as a company are going to do a better job of lifting up the military women. The women veterans that are living, you know, they're not just existing. They're out there making it happen. They found what works for them because we need to be beacons for others to show these other women that perhaps are in crisis mode or are still trying to find their way that they can find their way. We live in the most incredible country, the United States of America. And in this country, you can find your way. Autumn, I'm so thankful for the careful work and thoughtfulness that you put into this case study. Before we close out, please let me know, is there anything else that you would like our audience to hear?

So we all know that you got this, that you are a phenomenal woman. You are a strong, independent woman. But just know you don't have to have it all. That your army of one doesn't have to be one. That you can lean on others. That it is okay. That you asking for help is not weakness. That you did not go to war by yourself. This is no different. That you are enlisting your sisters to fight through your challenges with you. It is okay.

Autumn, Heart puns. Thank you so much for being the heart strong for the woman Veteran Strong program over in Grand Rapids. And you will continue to fight the good fight on our behalf. Thanks again, Autumn.

Thanks so much.

What keeps hitting me as I think about this conversation with Autumn is how we fell into the same trap that.

We'D been trying to avoid. Void.

We assumed all women veterans needed the same solution. We built a peer support group model that works beautifully for one subset of our population, particularly women over 55. But the woman who served in her early 20s and is now raising youngins while building a career, well, she needs something completely different. And the woman who's closing the military chapter and finding a new identity completely, well, she needs something different than that. So we weren't wrong about peer support. We were wrong in thinking that one model of peer support could serve everyone. Autumn's research revealed what should have been obvious. Women veterans lives are so uniquely different from each other at different stages that our program, in order to do the mission justice, requires multiple solutions. And here's what made this so hard to see. At first, we were guilty of committing the same broad assumptions as everyone else in the veteran care space. We'd worked so hard not to lump all veterans together, distinguishing the women's experiences as different from the men's. But then we turned around and we treated all women veterans as if they were the same. That's where trusting the process actually set saved us. Because when we stopped defending our single solution and we started really listening to what Autumn's 40 participants were telling us, we realized that the mission wasn't failing. The mission was expanding. We didn't need to fix what we'd already built. We just needed to build more. And so let's put this into action, you and I. Let's take these lessons about my program and see how we can apply this to other things that we might be getting wrong. Try this with me this week. I want you to look at one program, maybe a system or a process that people aren't using the way that you expected. I'm sure that you know what it is already, because it's been irritating you for some time. Instead of asking, how do I get them to engage, ask them what are they telling me by not engaging? Because here's what I've learned. Even non response is a response. When we actually ask the question and listen for the answer, we often get something completely unexpected. I saw this with my 5 year old when I asked him about his greatest fear starting kindergarten. Maybe you remember this story. I was prepared for answers about making friends or being away from his former classmates. But instead he told me that he was scared of using the computer mouse.

Because he thought he would break it.

I was not prepared for that answer. And if I hadn't asked and given him that space, if I had just assumed what he needed, then there's no way that I would have come up with that answer. So the night before kindergarten, we had a computer lesson, and he left the next morning more confident than ever. Now that's what Autumn's research did for us at a program level. It revealed that the people that we're trying to serve aren't all at the same place. Some of them are ready for what we're offering, but some have already moved on and don't need it anymore. And some need something entirely different that we haven't even built yet. All those positions are valid, and it makes me more excited than ever to continue doing the work that we're doing now. Our job as leaders isn't to force everyone into the solutions that we've already created. It's to recognize that the people we serve are at different places in their journey with different needs and constraints, and they may even have different definitions of success. So when we try to make everyone fit into our solution, what we're actually doing is serving our ego instead of our mission. So let's think a little bit harder this week about the gap between what you think your people need and what they're actually asking for and what they're telling you through their silence. Now, this closing segment is your favorite. It's called get the Gear. And today I want to talk about something that's been essential to my own journey of questioning processes. My research and documentation system. When Autumn was conducting her case study, she wasn't just collecting stories, she was seeing, systematically documenting patterns. Now I use a combination of Google Drive for organizing research and my Action Day Planner is the planner that I use for tracking insights over time. Having a system for capturing what's actually happening versus what we hoped would happen is critical for leaders who want to be able to trust the process while staying grounded. Reality My Google Drive grounds me in reality, but my planner helps me to trust the process. Now, links to both of those options are in the show notes with my affiliate disclosure so if this episode challenged how you're thinking about support systems and mission alignment, then your challenge is to stay connected with us. Keep the conversation going at Join othersofware.

And make sure that you connect with.

Other leaders who are learning to let go of the how and better serve the why. Now, next Tuesday, we're continuing our exploration of what it means to trust the process with another conversation that challenges conventional thinking. Because here's what we're learning Excellence isn't about having all the answers. It can look that way from the outside, but it's actually about having the courage to ask better questions. That's where excellence comes from. Having the courage to ask better questions. Now you can count on me returning next Tuesday with another dose of sustainable excellence and practical wisdom specifically for hardcore leaders because we refuse to go over the edge.

Until then, I want you to to.

Stay hardcore, be at ease, and by.

All means trust the process.

You're listening to Hardcore and at ease. Keep the conversation going at Join othersoverself. Com.