When Opposite People Become Your Greatest Asset

when you stripped away all the labels, I had a lot of labels for 27 years. I had been somebody's wife, somebody's mother, somebody's daughter, a soldier, an airman. I had all these labels and a leader, an NCO. And when all those were pulled away, I had lived in those labels for so long, but I had no idea who I was. If I'm not these things, who am I? And am I worthy of being even liked, loved? Am I? Why would anybody wanna know me if I'm nothing?

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From Others Over Self, it's Hardcore and At Ease, a show about people who are keeping their edge without going over the edge.

I'm host Shelly Rood, and I have a question for you. Do opposites really attract? Because I'm thinking of the person at work who makes decisions very differently than I do. The person who wants things from people that I think are unnecessary, or I just don't feel comfortable giving in that way. Well, today we're talking about what happens when we stop trying to change them and the opposites start figuring out how to pull together.

This is Hardcore and At Ease.

One of the women I talked to this week said something that I needed to hear. She said, "I had no idea who I was." She'd been a soldier, a career woman, a leader, and then the kids grew up, the career ended, and she was standing in her own kitchen and there was no one left to be for. No titles were there, just her. Her colleague was in the room when she said it, and they've worked together for years. And when this woman said, "I had no idea who I was," Well, the other one just nodded. Her whole body recognized what that felt like. And here's what I noticed about these two: they're almost complete opposites.

You'll hear that in the conversation coming up.

One of them processes out loud, and she needs people around her in order to think. But the other one, well, she goes quiet and she needs space. She has to think alone first. And so if you ask them to describe how they make a decision, Well, you would think that they're talking about two different things entirely.

They could have stayed away from each other, but they didn't.

These two chose to work together, and when I asked them how, they were very honest about it. Now, walking away from this conversation, I keep thinking back to this: being opposite doesn't make you enemies by default. Well, it also doesn't make you friends. The power is what you can do with it. You can either let the differences split you apart, or you can decide that you need exactly what the other person brings. That choice is yours to make. So let's get into it.

Renee, um, where is it that you're located out of?

Um, in the basement.

I meant like city and state.

Dubai?

I meant like what city or state are you Are you going to do bloopers?

That would be a good one.

I'm in Pickerington, Ohio.

Excellent. And I did a little due diligence beforehand. You're with the DLA, is that correct? The Defense Logistics Agency?

Yes.

Perfect.

And then Debbie, how about you? Where are you located?

Right now I'm up in Lima. Helping care of my father-in-law. I'm Ohio, but I, I live in Columbus. I live in Bexley, Ohio.

What is the backstory here? How did the two of you kind of know each other and, and how did that all come about?

So we both serve on the Ohio National Guard Enlisted Association. I'm currently the secretary and Deb is in a various role. And actually Deb is, you're on the, they created a new women's advisory committee for the Angus.

Oh, that's a state association, but there's a national association that we all belong to, Angus. And we, a couple years ago, formed a brand new women's affairs committee. And I'm the co-chair of that committee.

Oh, that's amazing. I am familiar with Angus. They held their national conference. I'm in Detroit, Michigan. And they held their national conference here last year. So that was a great big huge to-do. Ms. Rennie, I think I'd like to start with you. What was your military career?

So, I joined the Air National Guard in 1989, and I started out in information management. And then along the way, I had the opportunity to cross-train into photography. And then I actually had 4 AFSCs. So, then I cross-trained into education and training management where I worked in base training and, you know, helped send people to basic training, their technical schools. I was an advisor for the Community College of the Air Force. Like, we did testing, all that kind of stuff. And then there was a job that came open at the Ohio National Guard for Army and Air Headquarters at Beeler Armory, and it was in human resources and HRD. And I ended up getting selected for it. And so, I went to headquarters and then, so I was working for the Army and the Air National Guard, and also I worked with civilians and it was just such a wonderful opportunity. And like during that time, I worked in different areas in HRO and Air Headquarters, and then You know, I just kind of was in various roles, and that's where I ended up retiring.

My goodness. So starting in Ohio, serving in the Air National Guard in Ohio, when— and then at some point the Army came in there. And so now you've got two major branches that you're kind of learning and shifting through. Take me back to the very beginning. What— I don't know anything about Reneé. I mean, as a young woman, Who got in your head and recommended the military to you?

So I, at the time, you know, I knew some people that had went into the Army actually, and I was looking at maybe going active duty Army. And then my mom, a guy that she worked with, he was in the Air National Guard. And so that's how I found out about the Guard. And yeah, I mean, it, it was just a really interesting thing. And when I signed up, my brother and I both signed up, but I, they, they disqualified me because there was a doctor that made a comment that I was asthmatic, which I wasn't. So I had to go through a whole bunch of testing and ended up getting a waiver to go in, which I think is really surprising that I got the waiver, but Yeah, so I went to basic training in 1989, and I think it was October. And I mean, I just, I really enjoyed it. And basic training, there was a lot of really good parts to basic training. I had great TIs, or technical instructors. And I said one technical instructor used to actually sing goodnight to us. He'd sing, "Goodnight sweetheart, it's time to go." But he was like, he was an Air Force mechanic. And he really didn't want to be a technical instructor, but he would always tell us that we needed to pay attention to the details because, you know, if you don't pay attention to the details and you did something wrong on his plane, the plane would go down. So, like, he just drilled that into us. And so, yeah, it was a really good experience. I liked the confidence course and the— I don't know how much details you want, but I remember going across, like, there was the swimming pool and people— I didn't really realize that if they fell into the swimming pool, that, um, when they got onto the monkey bars, the monkey bars would be super slippery. So you're like— when I got on there, remember that?

Yeah, I totally do.

Gripping for dear life so that I didn't fall into the creek. But yeah, that was awesome.

And, um, We have a very different experience because it sounds like your mother was very encouraging of you joining the military. Where does that come from?

I mean, she was always very supportive. You know, she— there's a couple sayings that I still to this day, like, share with my daughter. And— but she would say, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And, you know, the worst— you know, like, if you want to do something, you know, the ask because the worst that anybody can do is say no. But I don't know, she was just always very supportive of everything that we did growing up, um, and very encouraging. And I never really thought about it that way because I, you know, I've listened to some books recently where the parents were not supportive at all. But I mean, both my parents were incredibly supportive, um, And she, in her own right, and she worked really hard and, you know, neither of my parents ended up going to college, but they were both very successful. And my mom ended up becoming a postmaster.

And so I can see a little bit of that adventurous streak in her because that is definitely not a traditional job for a woman to hold.

Right. Very true. Yeah.

And how do I say this? Did your parents' attitude towards your service ever change or shift over the years, or was it always just lifted up?

Yeah, no, it was always lifted up. And if I ever had challenges, you know, my mom always, you know, was a great, you know, sounding board to kind of work through different challenges. And yeah, you know, they, I mean, they never missed anything, like any type of graduation that you would have or any sports activity. They were always there to cheer us on.

What an incredible blessing for you to have. And I'm sure that you're passing that on to others because you had it yourself.

Yeah, definitely.

I'd love to bring Debbie into the conversation here. Debbie, tell us about your sort of start into the military world. What did that look like?

Well, I grew up a military brat. Both my parents, my mom actually joined when women were not allowed, we didn't have a coed military yet. My mom was in the Women's Army Corps back in 1969 after she graduated from high school. Stayed clear through for 20-some years and retired. But, and that's where she met my dad playing softball on a base in, it's not even there anymore in Indianapolis, Fort Ben Harrison. And yeah, they, 50-some years and 3 kids later, I guess it worked, but.

Um, so, so your mom served at a time when women weren't allowed in the military. So then how did that work?

So they had a separate Women's Army Corps, and to hear her tell the stories, it— when she was applying to get in, it was more like a beauty contest. Like, they taught— and when she went to basic training, they taught them how to do makeup, they taught them how to— and they wanted always to look feminine. They had to have their uniforms tailored. Even her picture to get in, my grandma had to like take a sweater and like pull it back and like paper or clothespin it so that it showed her figure. That's how part of the application package is to get in. So yeah, she did start on a really weird path. It went through the integration and eventually she's had some amazing careers and some amazing jobs through the years. But it's, sometimes I look at her now and I'm amazed that the person that I know, I hear stories about her like then, like, You know, who goes, joins the military when they're told women can't? She went to high school when she was still going to school. Um, at least in her school district, girls weren't allowed to wear pants to school and they couldn't play sports. When she was going through, you couldn't play, girls couldn't play sports. They couldn't. Um, and my mom grew up with a bunch of brothers. She was the youngest one and she always wanted to go out with the boys and go do stuff with the brothers and hang out with the brothers. And so, which, you know, I see, I see my mom as this sweet, kind, never had a bad word about anybody. Grandmotherly type person. And then I also have a hard time sometimes rectifying that with a woman who hitchhiked and rode motorcycles and burned a bra and joined the military.

Yeah, I'm overwhelmed by the legacy of strong women and, you know, trailblazers that we have represented here. It's so encouraging because I think as the generations go on with women in the military, we tend to feel like, well, that's old school, or that happened so long ago. But in reality, we're not even 4 generations removed from the woman's right to vote. So just to even hear you capture and speak about your mother's entry into service, Debbie, I really do appreciate that. So now let's get into you. So obviously, you know, you're a military brat and you were raised on bases and such, but that doesn't mean that you were necessarily lined up to join.

So I was 17 in my senior year of high school and trying to decide what I wanted to do, and I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I just knew that I didn't think I wanted to be in school again for another few years. I thought, no, I don't think I wanna go right into college and sit in schools, and I don't think I wanna do that. So I started talking, I said, well, maybe I'll join the military. That'd be something I could do. Get some skills, get away, go do some stuff. So I started talking to my mom and dad about, hey, I think I might join the Army. And she says, why don't you look at the Air Force? I'm like, eh? I think she just, she's like, I think it'll be easier to be She goes, I wish I had, I think it'd be a better fit. You know, it's a little, little kinder, little gentler branch. Why don't you look at that? So my uncle was in the Air National Guard. He'd been active in the Air Force and the Air, so I went up to his unit and saw them and visited with them and thought, yeah, I could do this. So I joined when I was still in high school at 17. My parents of course signed off for me. It was very, probably having to be a problem doing that. And went to tech school and by the time I came back, my mom was saying, hey, by the way, there's this AGR, Active Guard Reserve, which is like full-time activity, but you work for the Guard. Position coming open in the unit that I'm in the— he was in, she was in an air defense artillery battalion. She goes, there's a job coming open in that battalion. Um, if you wanted to apply on it, you know, we could do that. So I did and got accepted. So then I had to transfer over the Army National Guard. So I was in the Army National Guard for 6 years. That's actually where I met my husband.

So when you joined, did you join at the Air Force level or you joined in the Air National Guard level?

Yep.

But then the first opportunity that came up for a full-time job just so happened to be Army National Guard in your mom's unit. Did I get that right?

Yeah, she was working in the S4, which is supply. Um, that's the only— so at that time, the women weren't allowed to go into combat arms, and it was an air defense unit, which they consider artillery. Um, so the only place we were allowed to be was in the battalion headquarters, which is like the next level up. There's about a whole battalion, it's about 1,000 people-ish. Um, so they have a headquarters, um, and they have 4 units underneath them. That one happened to have 4 units underneath it. But, um, so she was working in supply there because it was in the town that my mom, um, grew up in. Um, that's how I— they ended up— she had, she had been working for the AGR, for the Army Guard for years, um, trying to get back home cuz she knew she was getting close to seeing, trying to figure out, oh, what do I, you know? So when that job opened and it happened to be in this very small town that she grew up in, graduated from high school in. They moved us down there. So yeah, she was working in supply there and said, "Why don't you come in?" I'm like, "Okay." So yeah, that's how I got started. And then somewhere along the line I met my husband and I ended up doing 6 years in the Army Guard. Would've stayed longer, but my husband was a recruiter, so we moved up. He got transferred to Lima, Ohio, and we, National Guard unit in Lima only had tanks and infantry. And they'd have a headquarters that women could be in, so I couldn't be in either one of those units at all. Um, so they said— they were telling me, well, the nearest unit is an MP company up in Toledo. And I'm like, I don't want to be an MP. I don't.

And, um, so you liked your job, but you had to move locations, and the new location didn't have anything that women were allowed to fill, essentially. And so were you able to find something to come into, or did that start sort of the, the end of your career?

Well, no. When I was up at Toledo or, or, yeah, so I started looking around Toledo to see if there's any other types of units there. I knew there was an MP company, but I wanna see what else there was. I saw there was an Air National Guard base, a very large Air National Guard base, and I'm like, I can do that. I can go back to the Air National Guard. So that's what I did. And I spent the next rest of my career in the Air National Guard and I retired after 20-some years. I had some medical issues that I had to go through a medical retirement, but I still had 20-some years, so. Um, yeah, I love that.

So what was your job when you finally did settle into that role?

Um, I ended up doing communications and information management. Um, it evolved through the years. It started out one thing, and then by the time I left, I was doing, um, like user-end help desk stuff and network administration on the— from the wall to the PC. Everything on the other side of the wall was handled by a communications squadron, but I— we were in charge of the other stuff, setting up permissions and loading stuff and things like that. And I worked in the battalion.

I worked in this conversation because if you were to say communications in the civilian world, people would think like, you know, oh, you write PR or, you know, little paragraphs for the newsletter. But in the military, when we say communications, that is actually like IT.

Yes. Um, so yeah, and I ended up working in the, uh, wing headquarters, so I did a lot of stuff with the wing commander and ended up being his secretary. They don't have a set title, but that's what I generally did at the end, towards the end of my career.

Okay. So Debbie made it all the way to retirement from the military. Renee, did you as well?

I did. Yeah. I retired with just shy of 32 years.

32 years. And now were you— I know that we talked a little bit about, you know, transitioning into the Air National Guard. Was that full-time employment or did you, you know, stay as a national, as they call it, a guardist for the majority of that? Or what did that journey look like?

So, from 1989 until 2000, I was a traditional guardsman. And then in 2000, the same thing happened, an active guard and reserve, AGR position opened up, and it's just like being active duty, but you're assigned to that location. And so, and that was in base training and I, I ended up getting selected for that. And so then I ended up retiring with a, you know, a full active duty, basically retirement. And then what's crazy is that I just felt like I was too young to just completely retire. So I applied for some jobs at the Defense Logistics Agency. And it took a while, which was kind of great because I, I did quite a bit of traveling in between retiring and—

Yeah, I don't, I don't wanna skip over this. This is kind of a paramount moment here for a lot of people. So you're, you're fully retired now. You, you did, it kind of sounds like half a career as a guardist and then half a career at, you know, kind of full-time work anyway. And now you say that you're retired at what age?

51 years of age, retired.

From the military. That is too young to retire. So, so you started applying for some jobs?

I applied for a couple jobs at the Defense Logistics Agency, and the one was human resources development as a tuition assistance program manager for the DLA enterprise-wide program. And it's been a fantastic job, and it And that was the thinking on my part was I just— all the training that you have worked towards your whole career, I just didn't want to throw that down the drain. I wanted to be able to use it towards something, and this was the perfect job for it. I've worked a lot on policy too. With my background, it has really helped to be able to do that. I know a lot of people have a difficult time sometimes with that. But probably a couple years prior to when I retired, they came out with a timeline. It was a 24-month timeline that kind of stepped you through what you needed to do. And I'm not saying that there weren't things that was missed during that, but it was definitely very helpful. But I'm kind of the type of person that goes out and looks for that stuff. I do a lot of research and that was super helpful. And then I don't know how familiar you are with the National Veterans Memorial Museum, but Stacy Purcell is a combat camera photographer that, I mean, she, she was injured and had to retire early. And in the National Museum, like up on the ceiling in the great room, there's all of these pictures, like huge pictures that are hanging down from the ceiling that on one picture is the person in military service. And then on the other side is the a picture that she took. And so she was going to all of these different states and would, you know, set up and, you know, take pictures and stuff. And so—

So it's like the person as they are today and then the person that they were in uniform.

Yeah, right. When I retired, it was still during that COVID timeframe. And so I was afraid to have my retirement ceremony at Beattler because I was just I thought it would end up getting canceled. And then, so I ended up coordinating it and having it at the National Veterans Memorial Museum. And it was technically supposed to be outside, but they thought it might rain, so they ended up letting me have it in the great room. And it was just phenomenal.

Sure.

It seems like it's the absolute perfect setting to be able to live out going from that uniform into, you don't get to wear that uniform anymore. And, and what does this next chapter of your life look like?

Right. And I, you know, what, what was super cool was that prior to my retirement ceremony, I had reached out to her to see if she would take my pictures. And at the time, you know, at the time it was during COVID and she had stopped going to like different states to, to do the pictures. But she reached back to me and she said if I would go to where she lives in South Carolina, that she would take my picture. And so I did. And she set up the camera and everything in her barn, and it was amazing. And especially being a photographer myself, she, she started out with, you know, just start telling me about your career and from the beginning to the end. And it was just such an amazing experience. And that's how she captures the emotion on people's faces. During, you know, happy, maybe, you know, sad or, you know, whatever the situation is.

Did I— I'm curious, in that moment, did you feel— it sounds like you wanted a picture of yourself, right? Because it's nice to retire and you want to have a professional setting. Did you feel worried or nervous about what it might look like of who you are today compared to who you were in uniform?

Not really. I don't really know that I thought about that, but I will say that it was a significant pivotal moment as far as transitioning. That was, I don't know why it was so helpful doing that. And like at one point I made the comment that I had tried to deploy, I don't know how many times during Desert Shield, Desert Storm. I just got back from technical school and people that I knew were going. And I had orders that I was supposed to leave in January, but they ended up getting canceled. So I did a lot of work to help outprocess people and did orders. And then later on, I, I tried to go on a deployment, but they just didn't have any at the time. And then when I made Chief Master Sergeant, there were two E-9 deployments, and I, and they were a year long, and I tried. I submitted to go and I thought I was so excited. I thought I was going to get to go on the deployment. And then it all had, it came down to funding. There was a funding issue. And so I ended up not being able to go. But the—

You know, I want to earmark this part of the conversation because I have a similar experience where I was slotted for Afghanistan and just, you know, not even a week out, the orders were nixed. And I don't think other veterans, especially active duty, they don't understand that for a lot of us, maybe we did want to deploy or we wanted to be put on active duty, or, you know, there was a mission coming up that we really felt like we had the opportunity to be a part of, and it's been taken away from us.

Yeah. And I, the incredible thing about that experience with Stacy was that it went, when I made that comment to her, she said, do you realize that only 13% of the military deploy. And then fast forward at my retirement, one of my really close friends that I was in the Guard with, her dad is Major General Paul Sullivan. And they walked around the museum and he was looking at the different numbers of the different wars. And he basically said, he's like, yeah, that's pretty close to accurate as far as the percentage. So I just thought that was amazing. But I think I mentioned that during when I was talking at the ceremony. I guess you never really think about the percentages.

And I think for a lot of us, we just think that it's the next step, right? Or something we're supposed to do, something that depending on your branch, it's expected of you, right? You're a loser if you don't. You're never going to get promoted if you don't have that experience.

It bothers me.

What about you? Is deployment something that ever made it onto your—

I did. Um, and it bothers my husband that he never got to deploy. Um, he left Germany and got off active duty, uh, right before Desert Storm, Desert Shield kicked off. He tried to carry up and go back to his unit, but they'd already— they're like, no, no, no, you're already assigned to this reserve unit. And then after that he became a recruiter and he was a very successful recruiter. So he ended up going to teaching recruiting. So, um, he never got the opportunity to deploy and it bothers him. It really does. He said, feels like, you know, everybody I know, everybody, you know, I'm like, I mean, it's okay. But yeah, being in a fighter wing, I got a lot more opportunities to go. So I did that. I did get to go a couple deployments, but when I left, when we moved, I went to the Air National Guard. I also got off active duty. So we had one, we only had one child at the time. I went home, had a couple more kids, stayed home and raised our kids. And when our youngest was getting ready to start kindergarten, I took another full-time job with the Air National Guard. I stayed there till the end. But the, the transition out didn't worry me as much cuz I had already been a civilian. I'd been just in the National Guard and I was ready to get out. I got out in '12. Some invisible wounds that I had from deployments came to a head and I ended up hospitalized. And when I came back, of course then they started the process at MEB. So I got medically retired in '12 and I had to sit for a year and wait 2 years and wait for them to decide that it was stable enough or not, or does it go better, get whatever, and for the whole VA process to work. Before I was actually retired in '14. Being 100% disabled, I was able to just retire and finish raising our kids. They were middle school and high school age by then. And so I stayed home with them and finished raising them through high school years, which was great because I think they needed me a lot more then than they did when I was lit— when they were little. But when all the kids finally left, that next year was horribly hard for me. I had no idea who I was. I had not, since I was 17 years old, I had been, well, even before that, once we moved down to where my mom was from, I was her daughter. And then I was, you know, I was in the guard for a few years and then I got married and then I was his wife, my kids' mothers. Everything I did was with the kids. I went, you know, I volunteered in all of their PTA and band boards and theater and everything that they were doing, I got involved with. So my entire social circle also just involved other parents and other dance moms and things like that. Um, so when they were gone, and then of course then when I went full-time, that was my career and I was a military person. So I'd already lost that and then I lost my kids and I had no idea who I was or what I wanted to do or what I wanted to be. I really didn't. It, it was very, very hard cuz I went from a very, very, very active calendar, uh, with all my kids to nothing.

And Debbie, that's so interesting to me because you're a veteran with multiple deployments. You know what you're doing, you're highly capable, you're proven in high-stress situations. But when you take all of that away, all of it, and it's just Debbie, I— that moment right there, I— if you don't mind, I'd like to kind of unpack that a little bit because I know that there's a lot of veterans that are living in that right now.

When you stripped away all the labels, I had a lot of labels. For 27 years I had been somebody's wife, somebody's mother, somebody's daughter, a soldier, an airman. I had all these labels and a leader, an NCO. And when all those were pulled away, I had lived in those labels for so long, but I had no idea who I was. I hadn't talked to myself since I was 17 years old and didn't know what I wanted to be. And I didn't know what I wanted to do then. That's why I went in the guard to begin with. I had no idea what I wanted to be or do. So I'm back to the 17-year-old that still goes, well, you didn't figure out what you wanted to do. I was like, Oh crap, who am I? What do I do? I didn't, and I had no idea what to do. It was, I went through a pretty good bout of depression and anxiety just because I didn't know what I, if I'm not these things, who am I? And am I worthy of being even liked, loved? Am I, why would anybody want to know me if I'm nothing? And it was really, really hard.

Do you have any answers?

I found now, I found some other, um, organizations that I got involved with gradually. I got paired with my service dog about a year and a half ago through Guardian Angels. They are an organization that pairs service dogs with veterans and first responders, and they don't charge.

Very familiar with Guardian Angels Service Dogs.

So once I got Doc, I was able to go out and COVID was either— was my husband would say COVID was the best and the worst thing to ever happen to me. 'Cause by then I was pretty isolated. I wasn't going out. I was afraid. I wouldn't go anywhere if my husband couldn't go with me. I didn't drive. I would go to my mom's or my sister's or my oldest daughters, but other than that, if it wasn't somewhere safe that I was going at the end of the journey, and even then you had to make sure the car was fueled up and everything was ready so I didn't have to stop anywhere between here and there. As long as there was a safe ending at the end, I would go. I didn't go out after dark. It was bad. And I think it was just because of the way things happened. But COVID was great for me because everything was online. You didn't have to go out of your house. They deliver everything to your house. I can order groceries that way. I can get food that way. It was the best thing in the world.

It just fed your isolation.

Yeah, which is really bad. It did feed my isolation completely. Um, which actually made it worse, but it's 2 years in June that I've had Doc and it has been a lifesaver and probably literally and a life-changing for me. I've been able to get out and get involved in things again, other than just surviving. Uh, my husband doesn't have to be my caregiver anymore. He should just be my husband. I'm in our empty nest now. My kids can have mom come and visit them because they're scattered.

Um, you said something in there that made me think about an article that I'm working on. About healthy friends and why women need healthy platonic friendship of other women. And my meditation for myself was that I think that me having women friends makes me a better wife because I don't have to put those other titles or expectations on my husband. And so you referencing your husband as your caretaker for that moment in time, I'm hearing you recognize that was another layer that you had laid onto him, and that is hard to have somebody fill something like that.

I kept, I wouldn't call them friends. I kept acquaintances. I was friends with all of my kids' moms and activity moms. Yeah, I forgot that.

You said you had friends, but they were in air quotes.

Yeah.

So you had, you struggled to use that word.

Well, because when I think about friends that I had now, I have, and now I say I have, I have very few friends. I have lots of acquaintances. There are a few people in my life that I could absolutely trust with everything. I unload to them, they unload to me, and some really personal deep things, and I can go with them and we can talk and we can cry and we can get each other through the hard parts. And then we're just gonna be silly and goof off and laugh at the funniest stuff ever and just be. But I realized when the kids were all gone that I didn't have any friends. I had my family, I had my sister, and I didn't have any friends.

And once.

I got Doc and I was ready to start going, and I went through a lot of therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy that got me ready to go back out into the world. I realized that I didn't have, even the few people that I would've considered friends before, I kind of lost them in that period between when I got retired and then I lost track with them. I talked to them every so often, but we didn't stay engaged in each other's lives. And the things that had hooked us together weren't there anymore. So I had some people that I served with that were like, oh, that's my friend. You know, our connection wasn't there anymore. And you still got the moms with the kids and like, yeah, that's my friend. But then we had the connection we had of our children is gone. And we didn't have a deep enough relationship to know each other beyond, again, beyond the labels. That's so-and-so's mom. And we know each other through that stuff. And, you know, I could talk to her about, oh, how's your kid doing? How's this one doing? You know, but I didn't know them, know them.

That's a wonderful insight to have. And that is actually the transformation that I'm hoping to bring to Women Veterans Engage is because we do have a lot of women veterans that are isolating. And just like myself, I did not use that word friend when I thought about people I know. It was very hard for me. So that's my own transformation story. Renee, what's your take on that as it relates to your own journey with platonic female friendships?

Just thinking about what Debbie was talking about, sometimes you do have people that You know, we're your friends. I think people, their lives get busy and you're focused on your family or different things. And so you, you drift apart basically. And then sometimes then when you connect with them again, it's like there was no time that was ever missed, you know? I'm probably an unusual person with the friend thing because I still am very, very close to I have a lot of childhood friends that we were in kindergarten together and on that we're all super close and we still get together. There were times though where my really close friend Molly, um, she, uh, was going through school and was really busy. And like I said, with family, I knew she was really busy. And then I had kids, I was really busy with them. And so we didn't see each other a lot during that time, but then I see her a lot more often now, or if I need to talk to her or whatnot, I'll call. I still do a lot of things with them. And I don't know, kind of like Debbie, just try— involved in some of the different organizations. I'm the vice chair of the Women Veterans Advisory Committee for ODVS. And so that kind of keeps you connected and trying to find resources, benefits that help others.

I think this is a perfect segue into talking about our flowers. Because I'm sensing that personality and pattern movement is going to have some to play here. So, all right, who wants to be the first one to disclose their flowers?

I had the exact opposite experience with Renee, though, and I was always the empathy people that got to go to school. I went to 7 different schools in 12 years, so I was always being a kid, and this was long before social media, so I had no real way to keep in contact with those people. So I never learned how to develop deep friendships Now my best friend, yeah, actually she's my daughter's mother-in-law, which is hilarious. But she is, yeah, my ride or die. She, we would, and we could go months without talking to each other and call each other. You'd never know we'd had, you'd think we saw each other the last week. It took me until adulthood to be in one place long enough to actually learn how to develop a friendship beyond that surface level because that's all I'd ever learned. I was only in, you know, 7 schools in 12 years. I didn't, develop long-term friendships because I didn't know how and I didn't ever learn how. So it's like, that's a skill I had to develop as an adult was how do I make friends that are not just a surface level that, you know, is going to be gone in a year and a half or 2 years? How do I make those friends that are that fragile connection that are temporary in your life?

I do have a question, Debbie. So have you been able to find some of the friends that you had from the different schools? Um, I looked up a social media?

I've looked them up, a couple of them. As a matter of fact, one of them that I was friends with in middle school, that was my best friend. She came to my wedding. Um, and it was just really weird. It was, but it was weird. Like we didn't, I don't know what to talk to her about. It was neat to see her, but we weren't the same people and it was an interesting dynamic. Um, and then my, I graduated, I, we moved when I was about the middle of my sophomore year to the town that my parents, my mom's from, and that's where they stayed after retirement. So when I go down there, I occasionally see, and it's a small town, so I occasionally see people that I graduated with. And even then it's kind of a, hey, how you doing? Um, because I was only there for a couple years and I went off into the world. And so I, I see them and I talk to them, but I really don't have very many of those that I would consider a friend that I would call if I, I could pick up the phone and call them at 2 in the morning.

Debbie, you have your quiz results up. Do you know what your primary flower is?

It's a goldenrod. That I remember. Yes, goldenrod.

Goldenrod. Oh, that's fascinating. So a goldenrod sits at the southeast corner on our compass, and a goldenrod is an internal processor, and she also likes independence. Now, in contrast, Renee, do you remember what your primary bloom is?

A hollyhock.

And here we see it lived out. So a hollyhock is the exact opposite of the goldenrod. She's an external processor who lives heavily into connection orientation. Gosh, you two women are just phenomenal in your own ways, and yet you're working together planning things for the betterment of women veterans. How does your relationship play out? We can put boxing gloves on later. I'm sorry if I just unpacked a can of worms here.

No, no, no, no, no. I love her. I know her very well.

I agree.

The only 1% less of mine was Lily. So another one that's kind of, I got different, but then I need to come back to me and recharge my batteries and I get people out. And so yeah. Um, I thought that was very interesting. I'm like, yeah, that's new.

Yeah.

So one was 44, one was 43. I'm like, yeah, that sounds about right. So yeah. Goldenrod and Lily. It was only 1% difference of the two. So I thought that was very interesting. I tend to connect with people that are the exact opposite of me. Because I'm an extroverted introvert, but people I'm comfortable with, I can go and be. But I really am a behind-the-scenes planner, doer in my own little world. I'll be the background person. So I need somebody who is like Linda, who's my co-chair on the Women's Committee. She's very loud, very vocal, very, you know, charge right ahead at the wall at 100 miles an hour and we'll figure it out. And I need that because if it was just me, we would never have meetings. We never, because I would just kind of sit back and I'll take care of this, I'll take care of this, I'll take care of this. And the other part of that would never occur. So yeah, it's probably that. I think with Renee too, cuz she's very, she's a lot more vocal and outgoing and talks to people and I'm just like, okay, we'll set her here in the corner. Thanks. I'm good.

Yeah.

I'm reading right outta the Comprehensive Profile Guide, the opposite is Hollyhock and Goldenrod. There's maximum natural tension between these two personalities. One of 'em needs Squad, which would be Renee, and one of them needs space, which would be Debbie. Sometimes when these two flowers come together, you can feel rejected by the independence that somebody like Debbie might give off. And opposite of that, she might feel really crowded by somebody who feels like they need to connect all the time. And so what this shows me is that you two ladies have matured in your friendship and you've been able— Debbie, I loved what you just said. I had a friend recently who's a goldenrod share with me that she loves the women who are opposite of her because they pull out the best in her. Otherwise, she feels like she would tend to hide things about herself.

Yeah, they do, um, for sure. Multiple times throughout my life I have heard, I thought you were so stuck up, or I thought you were so b-word, until they get to know me. Like, until I got to know you, I thought you were— I'm like, no, I'm just shy and introverted until I get to know somebody. Shrink back from people and then they take that as being standoffish or me thinking I'm better than people or whatever. Need extroverted people to pull me out of my shell and pull me into things. And that's been, yeah, that's definitely something that I've always needed in my life.

I see that. Renee, how do you feel about being Hollyhock primary?

Uh, I think it's interesting that like some of this, there's, there are parts of me that like Deb said that I do a lot of things behind the scenes, but I probably thrive on the relationships and I guess maybe being an extrovert. It's interesting that what you just said, because when we first started the conversation, I remember actually pulling that out about Deb, that she was part of the women's committee.

I never mentioned it. I hate giving bios. Bitch, say, oh, tell me about yourself. I'm like, I don't— you know, of course he does it to me every time we have somebody different in our meetings. Why don't you go around the room and introduce yourself? I'm like, no, please don't make me. You don't know what to say about me. It's just horrible.

Yeah, and I love that. And I don't know that it's introvert versus extrovert as much as it is that's just our patterns. Renee is just loving the capabilities, and she sees the qualities of all the people around her, and she wants to make sure that those qualities are being equally celebrated. They have the chance to be out there to breathe.

Very good explanation. Yeah, definitely.

Can I capture just any freeform feedback that you ladies have about the assessment overall?

I thought it was really good and it caused me to think about myself a little bit more than just what my immediate answer would be.

And I thought, no, that's really—

that's what I think that I should answer, so I'm not going to answer that. Yeah, I thought it was really interesting because it showed me more than— I mean, a little bit about myself, but also I know somebody else is something else. Now I know a little bit better how to interact with them or how they're going to interact with me. How can I reach them? My service dog, he has something to say apparently. If I know that, and obviously we don't wear name tags that says, oh hi, I'm a hollyhock. But if I can talk to them for a little bit or just watch it, you know, they seem to be this and okay, I know what part of them I need to, if I'm going to draw them into this organization or if I'm going to help them do this, I need to put, which one is it? Hey, look at this team. Come join our team. We got, you know, there's more than just me. There's a whole team coming. That way it's not just me. And if it was too big of a team to start with, I would feel horrible and I wouldn't join because I'd feel like I was, I was pushing myself into somewhere that you don't really need there. They got a whole team. They don't really need me.

Oh, that's so interesting. Renee, any feedback from you? Open mic.

I think it's just always great to learn more about yourself. Like Deb said, understanding like with what she's just shared, that I think that I probably naturally have given her space because we're working on this thing together, not even really thinking about it, but we work well together and I thought it was really fascinating and I love flowers too. So I thought that was neat.

Even that, I feel like that's bold. It's a bold step, right? Everything in the woman veteran space is red, white, and blue patriotic and Eagles and all of the above. So this is so different.

I think it's neat that you used flowers, but a lot of times women, they don't associate themselves with being veterans too. The question more for a woman is, have you served? Because sometimes they don't identify with being a veteran. I think anything that you can do to help people understand more about themselves is good.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Renee, I have your results pulled up and you are 65% hollyhock. That's really strong hollyhock. And your next strongest is violet. And I can sense that in you. You, you do have this depth to the work that you do. And like you said, you like to work behind the scenes on things, and that's your violet coming out. And you are 0% goldenrod. I do wanna ask, there, there is some hesitation from, uh, from women to, to take the assessment, and that can be for a wide variety of reasons, right? Maybe we don't wanna be typecast, we don't wanna be stereotyped, we don't want to have to live up to whatever somebody else says about us. Um, now that you've been through this process, is there any advice or what would you say to a woman, uh, who is thinking about taking the assessment or it's in front of her and she's like, oh, I don't know about these things.

I don't know if you've ever completed the Four Lenses or the MBTI. I know what you're saying about sometimes people don't want to be pigeonholed into something, but really we have all of those attributes for the most part. It's just a matter of how much we're using them. It's just a tool to understand how to interact with people a little bit better because like with, with Deb, I mean, I think there is definitely strength in working with someone that has different strengths than you do because we all have our strengths. I'm not sure what the hesitation would be to do it, but I think it's fascinating to see different things like this. Are you familiar with the Four Lenses?

Yep, absolutely.

I'm orange.

So an orange on the Four Lenses says action-oriented, quick-witted, charming, spontaneous, playful, creative, energetic, bold, action performer, problem solver. I see that in you, Reneé. I do.

Yeah. I think your assessment actually captured something a little bit different with me too, but is very accurate.

I hope so.

Kind of the part where I, I thought when I read through it, it, I kind of felt like it captured how I do things behind the scenes too. And I'm an includer. And I had to learn that too, that I, I, cuz that's my natural tendency, but you cannot always include people. And being comfortable or understanding that, I just think pulling all of it together helps you to know yourself better and help develop yourself too.

My hope is that if we can understand our preferred pattern of how we move through life, then the choices that we make that are ahead of us in the future will be smarter choices. Cuz Lord knows I've made some not smart choices in in my life. Debbie, you want to jump in with anything?

Find someone who has, who is where you want to be or who's doing what you want to do. Find a woman that is in that place and ask them to mentor you. That's what we're trying to do a lot with the Women's Committee is reach back to our junior enlisted and say, let me tell you how I got through this. Let me tell you how I managed to get around. Because when I started my career, it was honey, baby, go make the coffee. All they tell a woman, they assumed, is you were a secretary, you're supposed to take the notes and go get the coffee.

And sorry, you just made me throw up a little bit when you—

I know, but that was, that was my reality. That was my reality. Um, and through to where it's now, that's not— because we weren't very many and now we're a lot more, but we still— there's still some of that around, but it's becoming less and less.

It's not perfect, but it's a lot better.

It's a lot better. And it depends on what career field you're in, then that sort of stuff too, I'm sure. But somewhere I read a quote that said, strong women, may we know them, may we be them, may we raise them. Reach up and reach back. Reach up to someone ahead of you and go, fill me with your wisdom. How do I do this? Can I make you my mentor? You don't have to talk to me every day, but if I have an issue and a problem, can I talk to you? Can you give me advice? And then reach back and find a junior enlisted that's the same way, or any, even career field, someone younger than you, a generation behind you that is maybe just starting out on their path, whatever that path may be. And offer your services and say, hey, if you have any questions or you have any run-up against any walls, please come and talk to me. I'll be more than happy to share with you whatever resources I have to maybe help you get through that.

I love that. Thank you. All right, Renee, final words of wisdom.

I would just say to continue to grow and learn and connect with others. Recognize that you're a veteran. Find things that you love to do and enjoy. Gardening, planting flowers, find what you love to do and what you're passionate about.

Perfect. Well, from the bottom of my heart, Debbie Clifford and Renee Frey, thank you so much for being a part of our conversation today. It means the world to me.

You're welcome.

Yes.

Thank you.

It was very enjoyable.

It really was. And I was terrified going into this.

Oh, I'm so glad we were able to make it a pleasant experience.

What I keep reflecting on about this conversation is that these two women choose each other. They could have written the other one off the moment that they realized just how different they are, but instead they asked, "What if I need you exactly as you are?" That's the move right there. What if I need this person exactly as they are? In situations where the mission takes precedence, Sometimes that's the only move that matters. We can't deeply change the characteristics of the person across from us, but we're both working towards something that matters, and we have to figure out how to do this together. So let's take our efforts and shift them away from change and onto progress. And sometimes that means redefining progress.

Now what about you?

Are you working alongside someone right now who makes decisions opposite the way that you do? Let's take some time right now and sit with this lesson. Let's take a break from trying to fix things.

Let's stop trying to fix people.

Let's stop trying to understand it better. Let's just sit with it. Ask yourself, what if I don't need them to be more like me? What if the problem isn't them at all. I'm curious as to what will shift for you when you stop running the story that you're supposed to be compatible, because maybe you're not, and ask yourself instead, open yourself to the possibility of building something different together. There's a saying that I keep close to my heart when it comes to raising children because it's a struggle for me, and the saying goes like this: Things take longer when we include them. But perhaps that's the whole point. Take a moment today to apply that to your leadership challenge. You don't have to do it alone. Head over to join.othersoverself.com. That's where this conversation is happening on the daily with me. Well, that's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back next Tuesday as promised with another conversation on how to be ambitious and also not alone. Until then, stay hardcore, be at ease, and trust the process.

You're listening to Hardcore and At Ease. Keep the conversation going at join.othersoverself.com.