Changing Our World With David White

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by David, David White. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Um, a busy, a busy man, so we're gonna dive, dive straight in. Uh, David leads, uh, Fostering Great Ideas, which we will get onto in a, in a minute. But, um, I like to start with the big question really. David, about thriving and what thriving means to you as a human being, as a leader of a nonprofit. However, you know, as wide as you take, as wide as you can go, David, as wide as you like.

Well, it used to be winning or becoming great and being seen as great. But really, as I get older, I'm in my 50s, It really is about the connections that are meaningful, the people who will be with me even after I create great things, the people who actually just care about me as a human. That's what I consider thriving. If you have those relationships, you're thriving in life. That's my opinion.

Yeah. So obviously it was a change in how you define— what led to that change, David?

Um, uh, probably other people who are much more relational driven than I was, and I was more just driving, you know, trying to drive a business, trying to drive, um, my ego. Uh, and I still do that a lot, but it's really— there's a good number of people out there who really simply want to be in connection, and they show it, and they're very kind to others. And so a kinder world. And, um, you know, I've always had it in me, that value, but it was never my primary value. It was I was starting to be kind, but I was, I was not somebody who really cared about all people. So people who do care about all people are the, are the wonders out there. They've made the rest of us realize the importance of care and kindness.

Yeah.

And I believe I've become more loyal to people as a result, more oriented towards their interests as a result. And that has made me a better human.

Yeah. So do you, do you remember, was this change gradual? Was it, uh, was it, was it, uh, did it happen in a, in a few instants? What, what led, what led to this change? What was the surroundings to it?

Things, uh, Simon, uh, definitely marriage. Uh, so, uh, uh, married, um, a good number of years. We're both like, wow. And, uh, so as a result, it's It's, it's that loyalty to one another. Obviously, that can't always be the case for people, but for us, the kindness one towards another and realizing this is it, uh, that allowed me to realize that, um, people need each other, and period. And it's not just about succeeding, succeeding, succeeding. Uh, it's a lot more about connecting, connecting, connecting, and staying thus Connected. I also found it, and through the business, the charity nonprofit I run, and the people who give back so generously— these are obviously the donors, but they're also the volunteers and the staff— and the kindness, the generosity from others is really the first time I began to think about the word grace. I've often heard the word grace. I know that it's a Often a religious word, and I found it in individuals who simply give of themselves. I have that in me too, but these were very focused. They're coming in, they're donating a very small amount, um, but a meaningful amount, and it's hard on them because it means a lot because they don't make a lot of money. Those people let me stop and let me understand, um, that they are the best and to drive ourselves more towards them is the key.

Yeah, I find myself, I hope this isn't like putting a spotlight on, but I'm trying to get to that transition point because, you know, you set up the nonprofit that you were the founder of it, if I remember rightly. Is that right, David?

That's correct.

Yeah. Okay, so this, this, uh, this grace, this, uh, kindness and connecting, that, the, that must— the, the nonprofit, I'm guessing, was, uh, a result of, of a shift that happened with— within you. And I'm trying to get to— I'm trying to get to the moment when things started to change. I'm just being nosy.

I think it's a logical statement on your part, but actually that's not when it happens. So, okay. So I knew I would run something big because I have an ego and I knew I could build something big. And I think a great entrepreneur or any entrepreneur needs to know that they will succeed. They believe they will succeed. They don't think in terms of failure. I'm not gonna fail and I'm simply not. I've built other things and I'm not gonna fail. So that, that's a, that's where I drove from. I also drove from dignity framing. So if you look at any movement, civil rights movement is the most prominent. It's always based on dignity, seeing another human being. I've always been very capable at that. When I used to hang out in, I did a soup kitchen shower house when I was a teenager one summer. And instead of simply serving homeless guys, I ate with homeless guys. So it's just very much, I am with— I see now you, and I delight, and we can laugh together. You're in a very difficult situation. I am not. But we are having a meal together, and that's both of our intent. So I've always had that dignity, building a movement from the aspect of everyone is seen. Obviously, the child in foster care became The ultimate movement for me that I built, fostering great ideas, the betterment of the child's experience while they live in foster care. But even being that driver, that entrepreneur, it does not mean that I actually had that level of care for other people. I simply had the idea that a big movement based on people being seen is really important and I can do it. That's an entrepreneurial answer. But if being honest with myself, I didn't fully realize I don't have to drive everything. I don't have to always be the one. Others can too. And that's less important than the human connection at every state. And those who do show us grace, who are kind, They're the best humans. And that's now who I strive to be, right? As we all should strive. So it, I've still got the entrepreneurial bent. I've still got the founder bent. I still love to create and it's very much a part of me. And, but a lot of that is ego and creative spirit. The individual can get lost in that. Founders are well known for just running like a steamroller, and everybody's like, you totally didn't notice me. The staff could be, for example, or, you know, individuals just being, being almost irritated with— because your goal is to drive and to grow whatever you've created. The subtle point is really to say others are equal and The grace they share for this mission you created is is is something that really needs to stand for stand tall. It's beautiful. So you know, just like anyone else, I I I learn as I get older. I I remain a driver, but I certainly now fully understand. I think the beauty of of of people.

Yeah.

And they're giving.

Did, did you know that, uh, Steve Jobs of Apple was an adoptee?

That's what I understand, yes.

Yeah. And he was clearly, he was a, a, a driver and, uh, yeah, and, but good and bad out of that.

Yeah.

It's a double-edged—

Every driver is difficult.

Double-edged, double-edged sword.

Right, right.

Yeah. Um, it's interesting for me because, you know, I think people have different definitions of the word thriving, or else we wouldn't have 700-odd episodes of the, of the podcast. It would have been a little bit boring by now. Um, uh, and, uh, people have different definitions of, uh, of ego. So what does ego mean to you?

Ego means to me, I really like myself and I really like how I operate. And that's a little excessive. So I was born on April Fool's Day as a left-handed kid. And so I knew I was unique, an April Fool for sure. And everyone remembers my birthday and left-handed. Well, that's pretty fun too. So at every point in my life, I realized I needed to create this because it defines me. It's like a branding, subconsciously unique stuff. So I've only created, or I often create unique things that help others to communicate, connect with one another, disparate groups. I created a talk show where disparate conversation, you know, people with different opposing views get together and we have a spirited conversation. I created that. I created a newscast. I created an alliance of nonprofits to where we're all on different planes of our industries. But how then? What is our core needs? What is our core understanding of each other within all that? It's all driven by my ego that says, I, I can do this and I can do it well. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's actually a very good thing. For a child in foster care, their ego can be destroyed, or at the very least minimized. If you live in foster care for a number of years, from what I hear from people who have— I have not— it is a place where you are, you're often forgotten, even though you're the most important person there. You're the reason for the system. You can feel quite isolated. Anyone who feels quite isolated does not know that they can be whoever, or they can express however they want. And that to me is probably the saddest thing. My children will often say, my wife as well, that in a movie where someone is able to express themselves, they get out of their, out of their box, and they are able to live who they are. I cry at those points. That's, that's my, my expression, my being able to be what I called to my parents when I was 12 years old. I was at a camp assignment, and I wrote them a letter, and I signed it, your pick of the litter. Now, my brother and sister did not appreciate that I called myself the pick of the litter, but I did. And I said, I don't see myself with an ego. And it's, it's, it's run me the whole, my whole life. It can be a little much, but at the same time, it is a founder's story. And at the same time, wouldn't it be lovely if every child who lives in foster care knew that they were loved, that they were the pick of the litter, and knew that they were seen, they had a birthday that was special, and knew that they were unique. me, it was being left-handed. I mean, that is the goal, uh, and so if I can create an organization where that child is seen, valued, heard, then I've created what I wanted for me. I had it for me, but they all deserve it nonetheless. Definitively.

Yeah.

So an ego in thriving is that you are, um, you are valued and you can, you can express and experience and people appreciate how you do that. That's what thriving ultimately is. And for those who are kind and provide grace, they are the ones who will allow you to thrive. They are the ones who will give you the play box. They're the ones who will give you the resources, the tools, so you will be who you're frankly meant to be, who you were able to be. That's how it all comes together.

Yeah. So is it like a transition from winning separately to winning together?

Hey, great question. Yeah, it probably is, right? So, uh, uh, in a way, do I care about other people? Definitively, I care about them as a group, sort of a sociology, you know, the dignity of a whole community. The individualization, the caring of the individual means that I believe that it is not just me and my drive. It is all of us together. That is the learning process that I've had to take on, not dissimilar to other people too, but very much of a founder's learning and then seeing it as the entire community all working on a singular mission that you as a driver have. And then embracing it and thriving as a communal setting. That's the ultimate.

Yeah. So what gets in the way of that thriving, David?

Probably me, right? You know, you can always say that. You know, if you build an organization, a nonprofit, right, it's not easy. So, well, donor dollars are difficult because the individuals who are receiving the service are not paying into the service. So you may go in a whole new market, scale, scale, scale, but your donors are, are going to be behind. It's going to take them a while. They may only be interested in that particular community, that particular program. You have to— you're not getting— your widget does not get paid for. So it's an exhausting process to run a nonprofit because your donors are behind your vision. They love your vision. They accept your vision. They actually embrace you and your vision. And some will stay with you fast. But if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a founder that's working, it's really fast. And so they're really critical. But you have to make the same story to every new community, and that's a hard thing to do. So you can be running a really tight show, and nobody even knows it in the world of nonprofits. So that makes it difficult. But in terms of your question, how to keep that community together, that is a part of it. The donors are definitely a part of that build. The volunteers, they're definitely a part of that build. Are they ready to experience more intentional care? To get in relationship, in my example, with children who are in foster care, become a mentor, become one of their— a tutor to go into that foster home. You have to constantly build individuals to realize that this movement that you've developed, that you envision, is a movement to jump onto. And once they do, I firmly believe the organization all drives towards the vision. As a founder, as a visionary type, that movement of everyone pivoting towards the vision and then saying, I'm running with you. I'm running. I'm running. We're all a community. We're all a communal expression, a stable approach to serving these children. That's required of me. If I can't do that, and at times I stumble on that, then we just go into little pockets. We have silos and we have donations that are truncated only a year long, you know, like some grants foundations are out like that, sort of silly. In my opinion, we have volunteers who, you know, maybe like, well, how long do I really need to stay in this relationship? Well, the vision is you're staying as long as the child needs you. So if the visionary can be strong, and I mean just consistently pushing the organization's approach, we're building something big. It's a movement. versus an organization, then I really have seen, and I, I love how the staff, how the volunteers, how the donors all are like, yeah, we're all on the same team, we're all running together, and then we're all running at the same pace as the visionary. That is difficult. Organizational dynamics come into play, silos can come into play, hard feelings can come into play. Founders who don't listen well, like myself, can come into play. But to resolve all that, it's really the vision is being pushed and there's an organizational design to where everyone knows quite clearly what their role is. Yeah, that's the combo to me.

Yeah. You said a couple of minutes ago, you talked about being exhausted. What I wrote it down, but I can't remember the exact context. What You used the word exhausted and do you remember what that was about?

I don't remember exactly, but I will say that it is exhausting to run a nonprofit. So, you know, I don't have venture funding, you know, trying to acquire us or private equity. I would love that, right? So, you know, a lot of It's often stated that there's a ton of wealth out there in the world, and there is. There's a lot of poverty. There's also a lot of wealth. And that wealth, it needs to be, it needs to be excited. It needs to see vision. A lot of people, myself included, as a philanthropist, as a donor within an organization or 2, I may not feel that excitement. I'm just donating. It's almost a task. It's an appropriate task, but it's almost a task. What is exhausting is that it takes time to build out this excitement. Now, what's wonderful is that once people get it, they stay and they drive. As long as you have strong roles for them, they applaud. But the reality is, for children in foster care, Across the United States where I am, it's 350,000 children in foster care. It's just— I don't get overwhelmed easily, but it is exhausting knowing that. I just mentioned one of our programs called Sibling. Siblings, half the sibs are separated when they're in foster care. They're in separate foster placements. No harm. I was a foster parent, 5 siblings. We only take one. It happens all the time. SibLink, our program that brings them together for wonderful sibling visits, it's only in one state of the United States. That's tragic. And there aren't a lot of programs that do what we do because there's no funding streams for that. That 350,000 children, half of them are separated from their brothers and sisters. Are just in a random assortment of policy, social services policy. You need to see your siblings, but actual process of that—you see your sibling when you see your parent. But what happens if your parent does not show up? You need to see your siblings to see your siblings to rebond you in a healthy way from all the difficult times you've had together. It's sibling. It frustrates me that it takes so long for innovation to work its way through a legacy, even though a pretty, uh, an improving system called child welfare.

Yeah. So, um, when it's exhausting and I thought, well, Raising kids is exhausting as well, right? And, and you, you mentioned that you were a foster parent, and I had forgotten that, or I never knew that. I can't— but, um, so what, what have you learned about exhaustion in that context? For, you know, from a parent Simon, sorry, I just femaleized you.

Simone, Simon.

No problem.

So, you know, the UK and the US may be varied in this, but in the United States, only about— I believe this is accurate— only about a quarter of all caregivers, foster parents, licensed foster parents, I will take somebody else's children into my home. Only about a quarter of those individuals stay on for 2 or more years. My wife and I, for example, we stayed on for about 2 years. Then we were— that was enough. Now, that's tragic for the child. The children still have to stay in foster care. They don't get the choice to say that is enough. But I had that choice, and so we made that choice, and that is not uncommon. Only about a quarter stay past 2 years. Now, there's some Some logical reasons for that. And there's adoptions that happen, right? I've adopted. Now I'm out from being a caregiver. There's licensed kinship or relatives who— I'm gonna only serve the niece who just came into foster care. I'm going to take her and the nephew, and once they're out, half of the children do go back to their parent. Once they're out, I'm done. So those are very logical points. But the greater problem is that it is quite difficult— most difficult to be the child, most difficult to be the child's parent, but very difficult to be the foster parent. We actually have a training that has almost hit the UK. It's definitely in 4 other countries that we designed at Fostering Great Ideas called Life in Limbo. It's experiential learning by taking on the role of the child, their parent, or their caregiver. You feel the stress, the uncertainty, the difficulty of being the child, most of all the parent, and then the caregiver. And then you have more and more compassion for each of those parties. It's called Life in Limbo. It's a big play around the nation and in various countries. And we really need to understand that if we see the parent If we see the caregiver, um, once we can support them, so it's not, um, wow, this is so much, then the child will do much better because they will feel, uh, stable, right?

Yeah. Um, I, I— did you go on to— you said that you fostered for 2 years. Did you go on to adopt, or did— yeah, or did that happen?

That did not happen. We are an adoptive family. We went the old-fashioned way, bio, our birth, and then we adoption, and then we fostered. So it was a fun little trio of kids with my wife and I.

Right.

And all different places coming in, right? For the child we fostered, we did not adopt. She came from within child welfare from the States. And we decided not to, which in and of itself is a difficult question, because, you know, single people, single adults can foster, and I think it's great. Married adults do as well, of course. And within that, there may be different points of view. So my wife and I struggled. And we lay that out perfectly fine in the fostering process, and adoption was not on our plate as a result. For, um, the child we had in our foster, that child wanted her parents.

Yeah.

Well, I can't blame her for that. Yeah, she was adopted because her parents did not come forward in a way that the state deemed sufficient to receive your child back. Half the children go back, half do not go back to their parents. And so she was adopted with one of her siblings, which is a good story. Even though it's quite difficult, um, with one of her siblings to another home, an adoptive home.

Yeah. Um, so how does, uh, how does, um, being a parent impact the nonprofit and the nonprofit impact how you parent?

That So I think being a parent impacts a nonprofit more than the other way around. I definitely thought about some of the great ideas while fostering great ideas. We change foster care, we improve foster care by innovation and a lot of community engagement within the child's journey through foster care. Definitely having been a foster dad, I thought of innovation within what was this girl experiencing when she came to us. And what did she experience when she left us? When she came to us highly frozen, traumatized. Why am I here? Even as a 3-year-old. By the time she was 5, she was crying as we left her, as we let her go to another family. But in that crying, she learned how to have a connection where she had no connection at the beginning. So we learned from her the importance of— although we knew it, we learned from her the importance of every child in foster care does feel alone at some point.

Very much.

And I would say, and feels shamed. Uh, you know, why am I here? Why am I not with my parent? This is a moment in time and I have to move again. I mean, that's, that's ridiculous. Would we want that for any child? No. So these children feel that, and that certainly helps me to respond in a better way. But, uh, on a humorous and good note, and I, I give a shout out to all my dads listening to this, uh, um, you, you guys may not be any different than me. I, I, I am a problem solver for sure. Moms, you're on the table too for this, but I hear dads don't listen very well. I'm not one. I'm, I'm, I'm in that group. And so dads do good dad jokes, but they also sometimes, at least a certain cohort, need to improve our listening skills. So my 2 daughters are who told me, Dad, you got to listen better. And so from that, they both told me I've gotten better as I've aged and that they got in their teenage years and like, and their issues are critical to them and therefore they are critical to me. And ultimately they are important to me because they're my children. And once I started to learn that, I do believe that I do better as a nonprofit lead, because as an entrepreneur, as a founder, I drive so fast that I don't naturally listen when I drive because I'm really interested in the agenda. But my children have told me in a very kind way, Listen, it's not all about agenda driving. That's a very great statement and I honor that.

Yeah. This, I wanna go back to the Life in Limbo project. Do you call it a project? Did you call it a project?

Great idea. Project sounds great. In the US, we call it project, but we'll call it project for you.

Okay. What it, what it seemed to me to be about is, uh, sit, you know, standing in their shoes.

Yeah.

As, as a way to have, you know, to see the world differently, as a way to have a shift in, in your perspective.

Is that really very much so? Yeah, I, I would consider it. I mean, it's our most— it's our hardest thing to operate. Uh, you know, we have, we have relational programs. You, you're a mentor for a teenager, so when they age out, if they age out of foster care, they have somebody. Those, those are our mentor relationships, last for years for a subset, a very strong subset. And the teens who are now young adults say, I've got my person. And that's beautiful, right? You know, we have our tutor relationships where, you know, if you're in foster care, you actually have your own private tutor. I mean, this is a volunteer, but it's often a retired educator, a Sunday school teacher, or just someone with an ability to problem solve and is encouraging. And as a 3rd grader in foster care, you're doing well. The ability of doing well as a child academically is a game changer, right? So there are these relational programs that are by themselves great ideas, and they operate well. Yet one great idea or project, project is Life in Limbo, which is really the hardest to get interest from for people. It goes to the general population and they go to social service people, and they go to CASA, court-appointed special advocates, and they go to faith communities. But to get people to want to get into a role play, Simon, is really tough. Role play? No way. So we start Limbo with simply saying, we welcome our community to come together to learn together. I didn't say anything about foster care. I said to learn together. What do we know? We know that there's children in our community, and we can name the number, who live in a system called foster care. We all care for these children. We may not know them, we may not foster them, but they deserve our response. Life in Limbo, if you join in for this hour, hour and a half, 2-hour experience, immersion experience, you will see what their needs are clearly, because you will have, to your statement, stepped in their shoes. That is a hard win when life is busy, when stepping in somebody's shoes sounds extremely vulnerable as it is. But when people do it, when people say, I'm willing to play in your training, in your unique immersive training on foster care, they are robustly happy that they did it. It's tough, but it helps them to see in new ways, and now they can respond. With, I care, and I know now I can get involved. Let's go to the next step.

Yeah.

So it's the toughest one of all of ours. But, you know, the uniqueness of it, or the interesting part, is that it's in 4 countries now. And people who are leaders in these areas and these communities are giving the same vision I gave just now and saying, our community can see We are not scared of seeing the child. And when we do see the child, we then know that the child deserves our very best. Life in limbo offers this opportunity for this scene.

Yeah. So the, the thing that I'm seeing is a theme of insights.

Yeah, well said.

So you, you had an insight. Um, your, your daughter's helped you see, see the world differently by challenging you nicely about listening more, right? You— the, the, um, Life in Limbo program is an immersive experience that leads to a change in people's Perspectives. Yes. Yeah. So, again, an insight. So, how— like, to me, insights are a big deal. Insights are a big deal. Are they a big deal to you? What is it that you think drives improvement, change, and better outcomes? What's the drivers for you?

Yeah, that's great. I don't think I've ever used the word insights, but that is it, isn't it, Simon? So I do have the ability, even though I don't listen well necessarily because I'm driving an agenda, I do have the ability to— I think that is probably my golden goose or my unicorn or my My— the thing that makes me able to do what I've done, not only in this but in creating other things, is, uh, is, is to— as my wife used to say, I used to, before the phone, social media, and all that crap, I used to say, uh, she used to say, you just stare at walls a lot. So, uh, I, I don't try to get to a— I simply want to absorb. And, and There's great people who absorb, who they absorb, and they learn about the history and culture, and they remember it all. I don't remember hardly any of it. I just absorb. I gain insights because I don't want to make a judgment before I really understand. Now, that can be very freezing. You know, you don't, you don't ever make a judgment. I'm not that bad at all. For some reason, I have a great calculation. I appreciate that about myself. to where I can see, gain insight. I created a talk show where it was all about insights, gain insights, and then see the point of— this is the point. This is the point of entry. This is the point of change. And then drive it because I'm an entrepreneur. So I do believe firmly it's my ability to sit back. And nowadays, with so much political play of, you know, anger from one party to another and all this, Junk that hits us, and we, we have these positions. I'm the opposite of that, and I believe most people are. And I really can see— I, I— that may, may or may not help us here, but I will say I had 2— I've had 2 really good statements about me that, that, that have cemented me. And everything else is, is good, but it doesn't, doesn't change my life. The 2 have really been, um, one guy said, hey, David, you remind me of a, of a white guy who's a Freedom Rider during the civil rights movement. And he was a Black pastor. He is a Black pastor. That was a real honor for me to hear that. That said that I see that I have insights and I'm not making these bias points all over the place, uh, which is so common, uh, if I don't know another party, another group. And then the other one, which ties to foster care, is someone said about 3 or 4 or 5 years of me developing Fostering Great Ideas, He said, not thinking I must have, even though I had never lived in foster care, he said this nonchalantly, so how long did you live in foster care? At that point, I knew that this organization I was developing was going to win. It was going to be a game changer in child welfare because the insights that I fortunately can do allowed me to build. And then everyone can see a vision that is not biased, anti-this group, pro-this group, simply sees a child and their need points. So that, I think, probably is my defining trait as an entrepreneur and the reason I can create.

Yeah, I want to take you back to the parenting hat, uh, and I don't really know the right question to ask other than— the, the background to that question is we've talked quite a lot about the organization stuff, um, and I, I really want to mine your wisdom in, in, in, in, in the— from the parenting space for Uh, dads or mums. Yes. So, uh, is that enough for, for you to share stuff that I don't know how to— I don't know the right question to ask?

Yeah, well, you know, in terms of being a mum or a dad, or a mom over here in the States and a dad, y'all, y'all don't call them duds or dads or dudes. Uh, you call them dads and we call them dads. You just do mums. We do moms. I like mom. That's nice. I mean, I think it's so difficult to be a child when you don't know if you're heard, right? So that's number one. And it's on the moms and dads to know that your child, or if you're a foster parent, a child in your care, wants most of all to be heard. I mean, that's what my children taught me, right? I think that's what We have to be aware of. Otherwise, we can become a very controlling figure. We can become someone where it's almost like the child is just a product of the marriage or whatever. I, I, I've— for those people who have that mindset, wake up. You know, I've never had that mindset, so it's never been terrible. It's just been how to become the parent that your child deserves. And first and foremost, um, um, they want to be heard. That's it.

Yeah.

I mean, the whole organization I run is they want to be heard. Uh, every child wants to be heard. That's it, I think. Um, you know, the beauty of the parent-child relationship is what I find, uh, Simon, is children want to please their parent. Um, and that can be healthy or unhealthy. You know, if it's a parent who responds well, that's perfect. And then they develop confidence through wanting to please their parent. Their parent smiles back at them. There's a connection that builds who they are. For a child in foster care, that connection is truncated by the removal process. And then they are trying to play almost, I would say, a game where they're trying to be heard by this, trying to be heard by that. The social worker, the caregiver of the time, trying to get back with their parent often. So it becomes a very difficult, um, game where they're the, they're the one in charge of that, where it really should be the parent who simply says, I see you and I'm— I delight in seeing you, and the child reflecting back that delight, and then the child builds from there. So from a parent standpoint, a mom or a dad, um, it's on all of us to be the primary in this conversation, to be the person who says My child deserves to be heard. If you do it as a team with your spouse, all the better. You know, if your spouse is on one side, the child just needs to listen. And that's it. Then you have a— then you have a tough haul. But certainly, as we started our conversation today, Simon, we talked about care and kindness. As a spouse, we can always help our spouse or our partner. To be kind. I think that's the, that's the, that's the most beauty that spouses can provide for each other. My wife and I remark that certainly communication is the key to our marriage, but the prime key is really to be kind to one another, to care, to reflect back on one another, not just to say you're cool, but to say I'm truly interested in you. So it goes back to everyone wants to be heard.

Yeah.

Um, that's the best form of parenting, that is. And, and, um, we all need to hear it. I certainly have. And, um, we all do.

Yeah. The being heard— you, you took, you, you took my understanding of that to a different level there. Um, So what I— and you, you talked about campaigners, you know, within civil rights, right? Um, what, what can't— what the middle-aged, uh, adoptees who are campaigners, right? So middle-aged adoptees in my generation of adoptees, right?

Yeah.

Those, uh, the, the ones that are campaigning The, uh, the feeling that they have not been heard is— it's got to be one of the top 3 drivers of that campaign.

Yeah.

A, a, a generation ago or 2 generations ago, those adoptees didn't feel heard. And they didn't— they didn't feel heard. They didn't feel heard about their trauma, right? So the— what, what this means in really specific terms is this, you know, one of the biggest things that cheeses adoptees off, to put it blunt, you know, to put it in a, in, in a in a kind of like a palatable way, right? It's, it's a lot bigger than cheesing off, right? That they're angry about— they're angry about being expected to be grateful.

Yeah, I've heard this too, right? That's a, that's a, that's a theme out there that just blows my mind, um, that we put that on adoptees. As a— I mean, not we, all of us, but that, that is a theme that adoptees have to— some adoptees have to combat. So silly, you know, right? I mean, a family is a family. Every family who's an adoptive family is— we're an adoptive family versus that child's adopted and we're not. We're an adoptive family. Uh, it is— it has to be us. It has to be framed in a way that it is reality, which is us. The adoptee— I would— I'm not an adoptee, but adoptees know that they're coming in this in a way that they may be uniquely different in very noticeable ways, whether it's the color of their skin, ethnicity, or just their story. And to honor that, that person, that adoptee, sees things in a way that you didn't have a clue about as an adoptive parent, for example, is really important for not only the— well, definitely for the adoptee that they know that they are heard, but also for the adoptive parent if you want to be a capable parent, which is A very good idea. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so much more rich. I mean, uh, you know, grace, kindness all around. A rich family unit is, is just brilliant. Uh, it's, it's, it's really lovely. And, uh, it requires all parties, especially the parents. The parents— the onus is on the parents, I, I'd say, at every point, uh, to, to understand and to, to honor to value, yeah, the other parties in the family.

So my parents never expected gratitude from me. It worked exactly the opposite way around. They were grateful for me. Yeah, they didn't expect me to be grateful for them. That— I agree. And so it's not every adoptive— sorry, it's not every adoptee's experience, this, this, um, expectation of gratitude. It's not, it's not everyone. But I, I think it probably was more prevalent in, in, uh, less emotionally intelligent times, right?

Yeah, that's fair.

Um, so one of the big— and I, and I I think one of the things that they, they want to be heard about is, is their trauma. So what— and so that there are some kind of, uh, structural, cultural challenges here. So the, uh, that their parents were trauma blind. They were really struggling, and the parent— their parents didn't, because they were trauma blind, didn't see the reason for their struggling. And, and, and until the world became— you know, the, the, uh, until the world became trauma aware in, in, you know, adoption trauma wasn't a thing in, um, the 19th century.

That's what I understand.

It wasn't— trauma wasn't a thing in the 19th century in terms of like, um, the Napoleonic Wars, right? No, nobody was coming back from the Napoleonic Wars saying, I've got PTSD, right? Right. That didn't happen. So, but it's— it was the same. It's been the same in adoption, right? So trauma didn't become a thing until the '70s in the general, and, and it became it, you know, it's a PTSD thing Because it was off the back of Vietnam. That's when trauma became a thing, right? So trauma didn't become a thing in, in, um, adoption land until Nancy Verrier published this book in 1993 called The Primal Wound. So what was happening was that the parents were trauma blind because society was trauma blind, or adoption trauma blind. So those are the— that's the reason for the, the, the, the, the blindness.

That's fair. You know, for me, um, I, I, I definitely think about trauma, but for me it's interesting, Simon. I think about loss more often than trauma, a lot more often, and shame at some level, but loss is, is is my way of understanding the world of children in difficult situations coming into trying to— wanting stability, as we all do want stability. And so from in the foster care arena, for example, the loss is that no one's generally died. I may go back to my mom or may not. So there's no closure to that loss. And so I'm in this constant state of longing.

Yeah.

In the world of adoption, it obviously adjusts depending on where a child started. But there's always— I would suggest, I don't know from an adoptee standpoint, I mean, across the world, but, you know, loss has got to be in there, right? For everybody. It's really truly there for the child in foster care because you actually see your parent. At family visits, and then you're like, I think I'm going back to my mom now, but you're not. So it's very easy to understand in foster care, but in adoption world, it really will depend on what you hear from those who are adopted into a family. Is there still a loss from their prior family? It'll be individualized, I would assume, but I don't know that.

Yeah. Would you like my take on that?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Um, so I, I think of trauma like a storm. Trauma's like a storm. So the, the grief is the tears of the storm, and, and, and therefore grief and loss would be kind of um, similar. It, it, it's similar, in, in the same sort of ballpark, right? So, um, and then the other elements of trauma I would see is anger, which is like the thunder of the storm, and then, um, the lightning strikes, which would be like the fear— the fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, the insecurity.

Yeah.

So that, that's how I would Kind of deconstruct it. And, uh, and the good news, right? And the good news is that we're the sky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good.

And the sky isn't damaged by the storm.

Well said. Nice. Very nice. Thank you.

Um, anyway, so that's my, my take on it. So Yeah, trauma is a generic term. I totally agree that if we pull out the emotions, it makes the emotions that go— that are part of trauma, it makes it a far more impactful kind of— understanding, I guess. So, um, coming upon time, is there anything that I've not asked you about that you'd like to share, David?

I think it's been a great discussion. I appreciate it. All good.

Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. And we hope that you have enjoyed it too, listeners. And I, I guess you would have turned off by now if If you hadn't.

Exactly.

So thank you, David, and thank you, listeners, and we'll speak to you again very soon. Bye-bye.