Mind, Heart & Body Thriving With Jody Jester

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving in Your 40s podcast. I'm delighted to be joined by Jodi, Jodi Jester. Um, we love alliteration, Jodi. Yeah, Jodi Jester, that's good. Um, from the—

Bond-esque as well, since you said my first name twice.

Ah, um, so Jodi is a, uh, a mum. You've got 8 kids, uh, if I remember rightly. 2 bio kids and 6 adopted kids. And she also leads Bridge of Life, a nonprofit, which we might get onto in a little while. But we're looking forward to our conversation today, Jodi.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're a star. So the big question, right? Thriving. What does thriving mean for you, Jodi?

Yeah, it's a good question. And, you know, in preparation for today, I've been thinking about that, of course. And kind of what I've settled on is, you know, we think about thriving as, you know, growth or flourishing, you know, making progress towards a goal and doing that in a healthy way. And so I'd, of course, agree with all of those definitions. I think where I would maybe clarify or add to that is that Thriving, like growth, isn't always necessarily in a, in an upward kind of trajectory. You know, there can be some bumps along the way and some adjustments that need to be made. But, you know, in those, I think sometimes we can see those as setbacks or, you know, view those in a negative light. But really just that, that pursuit of growth and progress, maybe despite what life throws at you. Um, and I would say mindset is going to be a big part of that too. You know, if I, if I can handle those bumps and hurdles in stride and with some, um, clarity and positive perspective, I would categorize all of that as, you know, thriving.

Yeah, it's a word that we hear a lot in society, and the word mindset, right? But not a lot within the kind of the adoption and fostering world, really. It's kind of— it's trauma all the way. Mindset doesn't really get much of a look in. Anyway, that's, that's my take. That's my take on it. Jody, what—

Yeah, I, I think what we hear is surviving, you know, which is, um, we don't necessarily just want to be in this state of survival. I mean, survival is is fine, you know, but it, but it indicates like a lack of maybe wellness or wholeness. And so to get people to a place of thriving over just surviving is something that we certainly try to do with the families that we serve. You know, we, we do within our organization talk about mindset a lot. And, you know, we train in trust-based relational intervention, TBRI, and Also in, in NCI, which is Nonviolent Crisis Intervention, through the Crisis Prevention Institute. And so thankfully, the framework that we lean into does lend itself to talking a lot about mindset and the way that we frame things and learning to reframe things in kind of a positive light. So I'm fortunate to work for an organization that places a heavy emphasis on that.

Yeah. Have you got a take on why in the— well, first off, clearly it's big for you. I guess what I'm asking, to me, it doesn't seem big within the adoption and fostering space, to me. And I'm asking, do you see that? Do you see it? Is it— have I got some kind of taint? Is there something that I'm not seeing, or would you kind of go along with that, that it's kind of trauma all the way and mindset doesn't get much of a look in?

Yes and no. I mean, I think also when you look at adoption from like a general public perspective versus people who are in the space and have committed their life to it, you know, there can almost be— from the general public, you know, you can get those perceptions of, Oh, what a wonderful thing you've done, or how fortunate for those children, you know, and kind of that hero mindset that can make, you know, a lot of adoptive parents pretty uncomfortable and put a lot of pressure on children who have been adopted to be grateful, maybe in circumstances where they're not necessarily feeling that. But from within our organization, yeah, I do think there's A lot of emphasis on mindset, but again, that's because of the framework that we lean into. And a heavy part of our training is just helping caregivers to maybe reframe behaviors. You know, so some of those reframes for us would look like connecting before correcting. It's a very TBRI, you know, phrase that we use often. You know, is this person having a hard time or are they giving me a hard time? You know, a lot of times they're— Having a hard time. It's not necessarily personal or targeted. And so, I mean, we do a lot of work within the space to, um, to try to help people reframe challenges.

Yeah. What's helped you, um, in that regard, in the reframing?

Um, my TBRI training for sure. Um, NCI added to that. Um, and then I think just, you know, experience. I, I tend to be, um, pretty— I like a lot of structure, you know. That's where I feel I'm a planner. I like things where they're supposed to be. I like, you know, my world to be orderly and predictable. Um, and adopting a sibling group of 6 from our local foster care system can turn some of those tendencies upside down. You know, you've— you're either gonna, um, learn to kind of go with the flow a bit more and be flexible, or it's going to be the downfall of you. So, you know, some of those things that might feel more comfortable to me as far as, you know, planning out my day and hoping that things go exactly, you know, as I had planned, I've had to learn a lot of flexibility within that and to, you know, still create a plan. I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with structure. But we're overlaying that with a lot of nurture as well. And that requires some flexibility that might be outside of what our natural tendencies or comfort zone is. So that's what, that's why I say by life experience, not at all that I do it perfectly or that I do it right all of the time, but just the repetition of life has led to me being a little bit softer than maybe, you know, what my natural disposition Um, would say so.

Yeah. So what, what gets in the way of, of you thriving, Jodi? And, and I say you because I'm— I wanted to kind of bring it in on, on, on, on your learnings, right? Um, yeah.

So for me, I mean, it's so foundational, but it's a lot of, I mean, what we would call self-care. And, you know, so that may make some people roll their eyes. Uh, you know, I think self-care can look a lot of different ways. And, and for me, that's making sure that I get adequate sleep. I think for a lot of the families that we serve, and, you know, also teaching caregivers that sleep is so foundational to emotional regulation and just, you know, a day going well. And I know myself well enough to know that that is true for me also. So if I'm burning the candle at both ends and I go, you know, 2, 3, 4 nights without getting the sleep that I need, then, you know, thriving can start to Not, not be so thriving. You know, we can start to go in kind of a negative direction. And, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about, you know, hydration and nutrition and movement. And, you know, those things are so simple, but I think they're profoundly important and really serve as the foundation for a lot of emotional regulation, which to me is, you know, inseparable from thriving. I don't think you can— Not take care of, you know, your body and feel well. Something that we say often in our training is body problems require body solutions. And so for me, that looks like getting enough sleep, making sure I'm drinking water, you know, am I eating, you know, decent most of the time? Am I moving? You know, not, not just am I exercising every day, but am I taking movement breaks throughout the day? You know, we talk in our trainings, you know, we're training adults. And so we'll say like, hey, if you're more comfortable standing in the back, that's fine with us. If you want to pace, that's fine. If you want to do some air squats, if, you know, you want to move around the room, like, that's not a distraction to us. We welcome that kind of movement. And so even in our office, you'll see that, you know, I'm standing up right now. I prefer a standing desk. Several of my coworkers do as well. And so, you know, just trying to Be active and give your body what it needs. And so specifically for me, that's athletics too. I mean, I love to play basketball and pickleball and, you know, go to the CrossFit gym when I can. And so I think when I start to deteriorate, typically I can point it back to those kinds of foundational things. Am I getting the sleep that I need? Am I moving my body enough? Have I eaten well? my drinking water, you know, and there's layers upon layers of that. But that's, that's where I start.

Yeah. What about the more emotional, the emotional angles of it? You talked about hitting roadblocks and it not being a constantly upward trajectory, you know, like the ups and downs of life and family life, right? And nonprofit life too, right? What helps you thrive despite that? I mean, you used the word despite, I think, you know. So what helps you go with the flow with that?

And yeah, so I mean, we're just super fortunate that in the training space, You know, it is so helpful to add to your learning by teaching. And I have an opportunity to train in a lot of different ways, whether that is caregivers or the community. We do trauma-informed training for business and nonprofit leaders, schools, preschools, other professionals in the space. And so in that, you know, we are teaching a lot of strategies specifically around regulation. And so we'll work through different breathing strategies. We'll work through the benefit of fidgets and weighted blankets and lap pads and mindfulness. And I also have been a high school basketball coach for the last 5 seasons and did some middle school coaching before that. And of course, when my kids were little. And so from that perspective too, there's so much good data out there and studies on positive visualization. And so to, to know all of those things, to be training in those regularly, have really helped me to add all of those tools to my own toolbox as well. And just that recognition too of some tools work really well for one person and not for somebody else. And so you have to try a lot of different things. Box breathing, for example, I know a lot of people love box breathing and it works super well for them. That's not my favorite, to be honest. I'll still train in it. I'll still present it as an option. But I also acknowledge that there are other breathing exercises that feel better. So again, you know, my body, body problems, body solutions. And so I think trying, trying those strategies consistently and having a variety of strategies and then learning yourself and what works well for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If we, if we move the conversation on to kind of thriving adoptees rather than thriving for you, how does your take on what we've been discussing change? Um, or doesn't it? Right.

Yeah, that's, that's the beauty of it is I don't think that it does. I think these are all foundational principles. And so You know, as an adoptive mom, now my job becomes, how can I help my child identify what some of those effective strategies might be? And as a caregiver, am I providing my child the opportunities to set them up for success? Are we consistent about bedtime? And again, you know, I've got kids who have been athletes and in clubs and sports and, you know, all the demands that life puts on them. So, That's why I say they're simple things. They're not always simple to execute. But as a caregiver, as much as possible, am I giving my kiddos an opportunity to get the sleep that they need? Am I providing, you know, water bottles in colors that they like that, you know, help them to, you know, drink as much water as possible, or, you know, add a little bit of water flavoring, or make sure that we're grabbing our water bottles on the way out the door? Same with snacks. You know, my kids are, my kids are older now, so I'm kind of talking about, you know, in the past, but, you know, picking them up from a sporting event and knowing that, you know, it's been hours since they've eaten and they've just exerted. And so, you know, do I have snacks ready to go on the way home? And so really those foundational principles again, and then helping them to become students of themselves with the strategies. Working proactively with those. So typically those kinds of coping strategies don't work in a moment of crisis or stress. You know, it's something that you have to practice ahead of time. So no different than we would encourage, you know, athletes to practice free throws. And, you know, then when game time comes, we've, you know, established some muscle memory and some, you know, some success and some comfortability. And so I think so many of the strategies that we're teaching for emotional regulation are the same when we can work them into our daily routine as parents, you know, in the car, at home, around the dinner table, and again, outside of the moment of crisis, then that's going to, you know, your brain is going to remember what those strategies are when the temperature starts to rise.

Yeah. Had you had a lot of background in this, in the sorts of things that we're talking about before? Before you took these kids on, Jodi, or?

No, not at all. And honestly, if my kids listen, if some of my older kids listen to this now, they'd be like, this was a missing— some of these things were missing pieces of our, you know, experience growing up with you. So the age range of kids when they moved into our home was 2 to 16, and I was in my late 20s at the time of our adoption. So there's not a huge age gap between my oldest child and myself. And the time of our adoption was prior to my work with Bridge of Life. So, you know, we didn't necessarily— well, we certainly did not know then what we know now. The kids who, you know, were younger and had more time in the home with us, you know, these are some things that they're certainly familiar with. But yeah, my work with Bridge of Life is really to be credited for what I know now. I wish I had known it all then. Yeah. Yeah.

And what were the, what were the turning points along the, along the way? The, the turning points, the, the, the learning points, I guess.

Yeah. Uh, still, still turning and learning. Never there. Uh, I don't think I'll ever arrive. Um, but yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think a lot of people, when you initially hear TBRI and what some of those principles are, my reaction was similar. It's not uncommon for us to hear people say that TBRI is permissive or it's giving kids too much voice and choice, and especially in contrast to like a traditional parenting journey where do it because I said so, right? And like, I'm the authority and you're the child and I'm— I'm telling you the way that things should go. And so, and that's not TBRI at all. TBRI is very balanced with nurture and structure. I think what I've come to learn is that many of us were raised in a traditional parenting household. And so that's how we've defined our parenting journey. And that's, that's how we have parented. We're much more comfortable as caregivers to be the authority and tell people. tell the children in our home what the expectations are. And so not to say that we're not nurturing, but I just find that a lot of us lean heavy on structure. And so TBRI isn't saying, hey, abandon all structure. It's saying, let's raise the level of nurture to be consistent with the level of structure. So if I'm engaged in, you know, some sort of a parenting decision with my kiddo and I'm having to give hard nos, Then the question is, am I balancing it out? And hopefully in a proactive way with as many yeses as possible. And that's not a turning point for me. That was a— and continues to be a slow process, you know, over years and years and years of really evaluating. Am I saying no in this moment because it's the right thing for this child? Or am I saying, is this an unnecessary no? Is this an area where I can give a little bit?

Mm-hmm.

Because I know that there's going to be a non-negotiable down the road, and I need to be able to be firm in that.

Yeah. So a lot of reflection in the moment.

Yeah. Yeah. And we talk about practicing the pause. That's a big part of it. You know, it's like, and TBRA does this great thing with caregivers where they'll encourage them to have a yes day, you know, which is, you don't announce it to your child, but just, it helps you to realize How many nos am I giving out that really could be yeses? You know, and if I am giving those yeses, is it, is it going to be that detrimental, or is it just really more of a reflection of what my preferences and my capacity within the day are? So it's, you know, those kinds of things can be super clarifying for a caregiver. So, yeah, but it's, it's a process for sure. And again, it's not to say that we don't need both. We just need them working. In tandem with each other.

Yeah. You said that you'd learned— clearly you've learned a lot through TBRI, and the big one that you mentioned is that change, you know, parenting in a different way to which— to the way that you were parented. What other major insights have struck you through these Through these years in terms of TBRA stuff?

Um, it's a great question. I, um, I think an adjustment of expectations too is, is part of the learning, you know. Um, it's not— again, I think it's not uncommon as a foster parent or an adoptive parent to think that you have an idea of what the future looks like or what my family may look like, what the expectations that I may put on different kids are. And so allowing compromises even within myself to say what I thought this journey was going to be, it's not, and that's okay. And we can adjust to that. It doesn't mean— it doesn't There's no judgment on that. It doesn't make it bad or that, um, anything is wrong, but just that it's different. And, um, that's been another, you know, pretty significant shift in mindset for us.

Yeah. So we— because we hear a lot of, especially in fostering, I, I hear a lot about, a lot about crisis, uh, a lot of, a lot about multiple placements, kids with multiple ACEs, um, and, uh, foster parents not going, uh, not, not surviving this to get to the second placement, right? They, they, they, they give up, um, they, they, they— the first placement ends and then they, they move on, right? So what, what's, what's happening in the, in the greater world? Is it just this? Is this Is this lack of investment and time? You know, are people— where are people going wrong other than the preparation zone? Is that what it is? Is it just time and money?

I think it's— I mean, it's a variety of factors. I think some of it can be that expectation. You know, if what you think is this child who's experienced a lot of hard things is going to be instantly grateful and receptive, and we're going to have this amazing bond. That can be an unrealistic expectation. That's not to say that those stories don't happen. I have friends who have beautiful adoption journeys where, you know, there's just, there's a lot of bonding and trust and And it's, it's an amazing, you know, family dynamic that's happening. And then, you know, you hear the opposite end of what you're talking about, where there maybe isn't longevity, or with a foster parent, you know, not, not making it very, very long in their journey. So I think expectation can be part of it. I also think frustration with the system, and I say that as someone who works really closely with our local foster care system, and I have immense respect for the people in that space, and I have yet to meet one of them that doesn't care deeply, but also that, you know, they will also recognize that there are gaps in the system, right? There are things that we can be doing better, but it's complicated. It's, you know, it's— First of all, it involves people. It involves people in a time of crisis, and the reasons for removal are not singular. There's so many complex and overlapping layers. And so, when I say I think the system is part of the issue as well, again, that's not a judgment on the people within the system. It's just that these are really complex issues. And in my experience, the people who work for the agencies overseeing foster care are doing the best they have, the best they can with the resources that they have, and they're pretty amazing humans. Um, but they're not perfect, and they know that this is— the system is not perfect. So expectation, system frustrations, and then support. Um, so, you know, Bridge to Life, we're supporting families because we feel like that, that might be the thing that helps them stick with it in the long run. And a lot of times that looks like, hey, can we bring you a meal? Um, you got a new sibling group. Can we send some volunteers in to set up the bunk beds or put the crib together? You're a new foster mom. Why don't you come to dinner with some other mamas who've walked this journey? We're getting ready to start a dad's breakfast. So allowing for those community building times within a space where people get it. You don't have to spend a lot— long time explaining what it looks like within your 4 walls because you're sitting down to share a meal with people who already live it every day. And so we think that community piece is really important. We offer financial assistance. So, you know, if there is a bump in the road and a family has an unexpected financial need, we can assist with that. We do free childcare events so that those caregivers can drop their kiddo off at a place that they know is safe with volunteers who have been screened and trauma trained. And then we provide caregiver training and coaching. And so, you know, again, giving caregivers a chance to be in the same space together, share a meal, get to know each other, but also provide some training. And those are some examples of some ways that we support families. And we see that making a real difference as far as them, you know, sticking it out. And we're not the only one in our area. I mean, Bridge Life is in Circuit 12 of Florida, which is Sarasota, Manatee, and DeSoto counties. And what we hear even from circuits outside of ours is that the way that we support foster and adoptive families is pretty tremendous. And we have a lot of organizations that aren't doing necessarily the same thing as BridgeLife. They're doing different things. And then we collaborate very closely with those organizations. So I, you know, I'm empathetic for people who live in communities where maybe access to those services aren't as readily available. And so those are, those are the things that I can see as being a real hardship on a family if the expectations maybe weren't aligned at the beginning. They get frustrated with the system and then they don't feel like they have the support that they need.

Yeah. Yeah. Thinking about that kind of internal and external dynamic, you know, the system, blaming, blaming the system rather than look, rather than Looking within, I'm thinking maybe that's we have a kind of like a bit of a human that's a human tendency, right? You know, that is we're pointing fingers outside, aren't we? I'm wondering whether that's why we talked earlier about that kind of like we don't hear the word mindset is key to you, right? And your organization and the people that. you're helping, whereas in other spaces often it's trauma all the way. Maybe that's because we're more used to blaming stuff rather than taking control.

Mm-hmm.

Taking ownership and accountability of where we're at. The other thing is that we don't— So we don't hear much about mindset. We don't hear much about beliefs either. You know, like I've had very little therapy, maybe 20 hours therapy, but I must have had like, yeah, 20,000 hours of coaching. That's overcooking it, but— in that, in that coaching space, where a lot— and business coaching, a lot of business coaching as well— it's all about the coach trying to invalidate the coachee's self-limiting beliefs, right? So that, that's a huge, huge focus, which is clearly very different to a therapeutic kind of a therapeutic relationship. So perhaps, perhaps we— because perhaps it's trauma all the way because we're, we're blaming something else rather than looking at our own mindset.

Yeah. And I think, I think that's just a human tendency, first of all, is to, you know, look outside of ourselves or, um, you know, point the finger, take that victim, you know, mentality. But I think, you know, when you talked a little bit about belief, I mean, we spend a lot of time talking about the way that early childhood experiences can and do impact a person's belief about themselves, you know, and TBRI is known for the 5 Bs. And so we talk a lot about, if you imagine that behavior is the tip of the iceberg that you see, that is the small part of the iceberg that you see above the water. Right? But underneath the surface, we know that there's so much more going on. There's, you know, the mass of the iceberg is the part that's under the water that is, you know, invisible above the surface. And the B's that are down there are body, biology, brain, and belief. And so, in our training, we spend a lot of time kind of unpacking the 5 B's. But belief is a significant one of those. You know, that we talk about trust as the foundation of the first year of life. You know, when A baby cries and an attuned caregiver responds over and over and over and over again, you know, they're meeting the need, they're teaching what external and co-regulation look like. And so the message to the baby is, I can trust someone out there is going to help me, I don't have to meet my own needs, you know, the world is generally for me. And so when that foundation isn't laid, and the caregiver isn't attuned or things within the home environment are chaotic and they interrupt what was supposed to be this attachment dance that's happening, then those kids grow up with the opposite messaging. I can't trust, I've got to figure life out on my own and no one is coming to help me. And so I think you can see in there where the belief system can shift in those cases. And then it makes it easy, you know, to see why some of that victim mentality can start to emerge. And knowing that again is where caregivers can increase their capacity for compassion.

Yeah. Yeah. One's perhaps a little bit of a handbrake question, as in it doesn't go along with what I've just said. But one of my fascinations is how we talk to kids about feelings, how we talk to kids about mindset. And part of the reason that that's my fascination is I did that for 7 years before I came into the adoption space, right? And, and how do you, how do you talk to your kids about trauma and beliefs and feelings?

And— Yeah, well, I'll give you, I'll give you a story that I think highlights that really well, of like the pre-TBRI me and then the post-TBRI me. Um, so when, when our kids were all very young, and so, um, What that looked like in our house, we had a 2, 2, 3, 4, and 5-year-old, an 8-year-old, and then a 14 and 15-year-old at the time before our adoption. That was in the foster care journey. And so managing a lot of people at a lot of different developmental ages, and again, parenting in a way that felt familiar. And so one of our little mantras that we would say is kind or quiet. You know, if you don't have anything nice to say, in other words, don't say anything at all. And it just became 3 words that we said pretty often to kind of squash arguments and, you know, disruptive verbal behavior. Kind or quiet, kind or quiet, you know. And so it, it was effective a lot of the time. And so our kids would decide to be quiet rather than say something mean. And, and so that was early on in our foster care journey. And now with some more learning and experience, and so one of those 2-year-olds was now probably like 16 and going through what a lot of teenagers go through. And, you know, I can't remember the set of circumstances, but I was essentially trying to coach words out of this child, you know, and like, you know. Hey, use your words. Let me know, you know, what you need. How can I help you? Because in contrast to Kinder Quiet, TBRI says name it to tame it. So they, they validate. They say like, hey, there's no wrong emotions necessarily. But what you do need to do is be able to express what you're feeling. You need to be able to say what the emotion is in order to manage it, right? So recognizing it, naming it is like thing number one. And, and so now that's, that's in stark contrast to kind or quiet. And so I'm, I'm having this moment with my teenage kiddo. And she said to me, you know, something along— it kind of threw it back in my face, like, oh, we're talking about our emotions now? I thought we were supposed to be kind or quiet. And I was like, oof, that point taken, right? And it wasn't in like a sassy or disrespectful way. It was just her pointing out like, hey, there's been a shift here in the parenting journey and expectation. And she was one of the ones that had kind of grown up in the house to see that transformation. And so, again, how I would answer it then versus how I would answer it now and how some of my kids experienced my parenting is different than maybe others.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think it's incredibly important to be able to say, hey, I'm really mad that I have to do the dishes right now. I don't want to do the dishes. Annoying to me and I don't like it. And that's— there's nothing wrong with a teenager saying something like that, right? And then our job as parents, I think, is to come alongside and go, yeah, that's a really big bummer. I really hate doing the dishes too. I'd rather be watching a show right now. How about you? You know, yeah, what show would you like to watch? You know, if you could watch any show right now. And so now you can see how rather than disciplining Because a kid expressed how they felt. Now we're moving more towards connection and like, yeah, I as the caregiver also don't like doing the dishes. It's a real drag. What can we look forward to once the dishes are done? So I think that that's where I try to live now. Again, I don't do it perfectly all the time, but I at least have that added knowledge and understanding to— that's the goal.

Yeah. Any big, um, click? You know, that was a, that, that landing, that, that really landed for you, right? That was a, a comment from one of your kiddos that really landed, uh, and, uh, and you, you've seen the difference and it's, it's crystal clear. Are, are there other, are there other moments of shift in your your approach, shifting your mindset, insights, epiphanies?

Yeah, I mean, there's a million, you know, one that, another one that comes kind of immediately to mind is, you know, I'm a kind of a people pleaser growing up, you know, I wanted to be liked by teachers and coaches and, you know, all of that. And So, don't, uh, don't rock the boat very much, you know, try to do what I'm told and, and all of that good stuff. And, um, and so there was a moment, I don't even remember what it was or what I had done, but I had fallen short in some way and had been called out about it. And that can, uh, that can sit really heavy with me, you know, feeling like I missed the mark, that someone is, you know, disappointed in me, or I let somebody down. And so we were a while into the parenting journey when, when whatever the situation was happened. And, and because I've been a people pleaser for so long that those situations don't happen to me very often. You know, I work really hard to try not to make that happen. And so anyway, and so when I do feel like that, it's not unusual for me to like lose sleep or have a knot in my stomach, those kinds of things. And I remember during that particular experience, Just that realization of kids from hard places walk around feeling like this a lot of the time, you know, a lot of the time. And it just led me to, um, more compassion, you know, in that moment and just realizing like, yeah, I, I understand your stomach hurts, you know, or you're having a hard time sleeping or, you know, whatever, because you're just kind of walking around with this. shame core that I don't, I don't experience because of the way that I was raised. And, you know, just a lot of factors, a lot of protective factors. That's not an emotion that sits with me very often. And it breaks my heart that a lot of kids and a lot of people have the opposite experience. They just walk around not feeling great about who they are. Yeah.

Yeah, um, I, I saw something from Gabor Maté, a program a couple of years ago, maybe it was last year, I'm not sure. So the program was called The Gift of Trauma, which is an interesting reframe, right? The gift of trauma. Uh, most people wouldn't consider it a gift, um, and therefore there's the shock factor right there, um, and He said something in the blurb for the course said, um, feeling not good enough is an act— is actually a belief that we're not good enough.

Yeah, yeah. We talk a lot about felt safety, um, and, and it does— so it doesn't matter if a person is safe, we can objectively say You're safe in this environment, or you're safe with this person. Look around; there's no hazards. There's no reason for you to feel unsafe. And as caregivers, we we're doing our best to protect our kids, and so we're like, "You're safe. You're safe." But if they don't feel safe, then their brain is responding as if they're not safe. And that's that's a real challenging one for me because it it reminds me that I don't have control. You know, I mean, I can do the things that I think will lead towards people feeling safe around me. But at the end of the day, it's their brain and body that get to decide whether or not they are. And so my job is to keep showing up and keep doing the work and try to promote those feelings of safety. But it's, it's a feelings-based decision, and it carries a lot of weight. So I like that. I have not heard of that book or heard that quote. But That resonates.

Yeah. Um, I was, I was talking about self-worth, I think. I, I get, I get the point, the, the felt safety. I'm trying to make— I'm giving you safety, you are safe, but you don't feel safe, right? That's, uh, uh, that is a, a knotty one. Um, the, the— I was talking about Self-worth, self-esteem, and but you know not feeling good enough, which is you know you you talked about it being a a knot in the in the stomach. So it's a it's a felt thing, and Gabor Maté is saying it's a belief thing. Um. Is it both? I mean, am I trying to oversimplify it? Um, it, it felt like— it felt very significant to me, that, because it's easier to change a belief than it is to change a feeling.

Mhm.

You can see through a belief.

Mhm.

You can have an insight. The, the, an insight can— I don't think we, I don't think we make insights. Well, yeah, I think insights change our mind. I don't think we change our mind. What I'm getting back to here is that, that feeling of not being enough, Gabor Maté is saying it's a belief that's not enough.

Yeah.

And therefore it's kind of feelings aren't up for grabs. Yeah, but beliefs are.

And it goes back to that iceberg illustration. You know, belief is, is one of the 5 Bs, and, and felt safety can be your physical environment. Am I physically safe here? But there's, there's a strong psychological component too. So am I, am I emotionally safe with the people around me? And am I secure within myself? You know, so I think that those all do point back to To belief as well. Um, you know, your reality, um, is the way that you're perceiving the world around you, even if it's not always completely objective in that moment. You know, it's— yeah. And, you know, I mean, we could talk about neural pathways and, and brain development and all of those kinds of things. And, you know, I think what you're saying is, um, can, can I practice, can I develop strategies and can I practice mindset and some things that ultimately, um, change the way I believe, you know, that, that whole fake it till you make it kind of an idea. And, um, and so I think you can probably with a lot of practice and time improve that belief. Um, but I'm, you know, I'm— I don't have that lived experience as a child who was adopted, um, to be able to say whether or not there's ever a total overcoming of that, or if it— if, if you just learn to manage it better and work towards wholeness and healing.

I think insights change beliefs.

So you have to do the work first.

Well, it, it's— you've, you've got to have a metaphor. I've heard such great things about TBRI, and, um, you've given— you shared some, uh, powerful stuff about TBRI today, and you've been talking about metaphors, right? So You know, I think we've got to hang out at the bus stop for insights. You can't make the bus arrive. But if you're not at the bus stop, then, you know, it's not going to be there, right?

Yeah.

You can't make insights happen. But you can go on courses and you have insights. You can read a book, you can have insights. You can listen to a podcast, You have insights. I'm trying to mine your insights today because I want to say, right, this is what Jodie— these are the insights that Jodie have had. Can they help you along your journey? I think insights— people talk about time being the greatest healer. Well, if there's no change, there's no healing. So What is the greatest healer? What is the greatest healer? If it, if it's not time, then it, it, it's, it's change, it's insights, it's epiphanies, it's reframe moments, or it, it's moment— it's moments that force us to— well, they don't force us. You talked about that, um. The the the moment with your daughter when when she said something and and it and it landed for you, right? That's what what was it that landed? An insight. You saw something new. You had an epiphany moment. You had an aha moment. You had a um a lightning bolt happened moment happened. You had a light bulb moment. All sorts of different. They're all different metaphors for the same thing. The thing is insight. My own stuff with self-worth was an epiphany around my birth mother.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. seeing her love for me, like an insight, feeling her love for me. And, and, and it was a, it was a full body— it was a full body moment, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's a full body moment. It wasn't just a shift in belief. It wasn't just a change of heart. It was a, a whole life-changing epiphany moment that I didn't even know that I needed to That's so good. So what's your focus? What's the focus at the moment? Because, you know, I've said a couple of times about learning, I position learning as a past thing and you've kind of corrected me and, you know, correctly and correctly so, right? You know, I, I, I consume, I continue to consume a lot of stuff to help me clean down, right? Help me thrive more, help me heal more, all those sorts of stuff. So what about you? What's your, what are you, what are you working on at the moment? Or is there anything particular?

Oh, 100%. No, I know immediately. So what I'm working on, and this is an MCI term. So nonviolent crisis intervention is kind of the highest level of safety intervention. So TBRI does a great job of saying, how can we, how can we prepare, right? How can we respond? How can we help a child who is starting to go off the tracks, you know, keep them on the tracks? And so talk about, you know, playful engagement and, you know, corrected, connecting and correcting principles. And And all of that is super, super helpful. But the truth of the matter is sometimes we get to the place within ourselves or somebody near us where they are, they are a risk to themselves or others. And so if we have to intervene physically, whether that is, you know, getting ourselves to a place of safety or possibly blocking or restraining, TBRI says if you are at a safety intervention, then you need to refer to your organization's policies and procedures regarding safety. So, so we didn't have an answer for that. And so nonviolent crisis intervention has been our answer. And so we, that's what we train caregivers and volunteers in. And there's a concept in NCI called relational detachment. And I've really struggled with that one. So if you imagine implementing NCI in like a hospital setting or, you know, a workplace, to rationally detach from someone. Seems like a professional thing to do, right? If, if a customer or a patient or a client is verbally attacking me, you know, they are, they are intimidating with their posture, you know, I am starting to, to wonder if I am safe in the moment. It is, it is professional and expected that we could be able to kind of put the shield down and say, this is not personal. This has nothing to do with me. This person is having a hard time. They're not giving me a hard time. And I need to do my job, whatever I'm here to do, to administer the medication or provide customer support or whatever. And so it's, you know, working within those workplace strategies to try to de-escalate. So that takes on a different meaning and application if we're talking with caregivers.

Yeah.

Because we don't want anyone detaching.

Yeah.

Right? We don't want there to be— I mean, we're teaching TBRI, which is connection, connection, connection. And so now, um, NCI, which is, is very compatible and friendly with the— with how they— how it works together with TBRI, has introduced this relational attachment. And so it always, um, generates some really good discussion when we're teaching it with caregivers. And it's been really good for me to work through through personally. Because how do I say— how do I stay soft towards the children in my care while not letting words or actions or behaviors completely emotionally sink me, right? So it's— so that's the tension that I'm feeling and that I'm kind of working through is I want to be able to be responsive to needs. I want to have soft eyes. I want my tone, cadence, and volume of my voice to be appropriate. All of those things that tell my kids, like, I care, I'm here, I'm listening. But I can't leave myself open and so vulnerable that I'm taking that on personally. And so that's, that's like the dance and the balance. And that's what I'm currently—

Navigating.

Fascinating stuff.

Yeah, we're coming in on time, Jodi. Is there anything that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about?

Uh, you've covered a lot. I'm thankful, you know, for the opportunity to share and, um, and for your journey. That's, that's super helpful. Um, I love to be able to have conversations like this where we're learning each other's perspectives, um, because it's It is really beneficial, and I think it's, it's an important part of the journey. Um, so thank you for, for inviting me on and for your vulnerability as well. Um, it really does help in the parenting journey.

Yeah. And just one question that I forgot to ask. Um, do you use the metaphors, the TBRI metaphors, to explain stuff to, to your kids?

Do my, do my kids know the TBRI concepts?

No, no. Do you use them? Do you use them with— do you use metaphors to explain stuff to your kids?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, because I, you know, I see so much out there about trying to change kids' behavior, and I think, well, no, empower the kids to change their own behavior.

Sure, it's the becoming a student of yourself thing, you know. I think a lot of times as caregivers, we We initially know them better than they know themselves. And so it's our job to help them identify some of those things within themselves rather than just telling them, you know, this is, this is, this is. It's like, what are you feeling? How are you experiencing? Do you notice any patterns? You know, some of those kinds of things. But yeah, I think metaphors can be incredibly helpful, particularly, I mean, for all people, but especially when you're considering some— developmental age and those different factors that can make those powerful.

So yeah. Cool. Thanks, Jodi, and thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon.

Take care.

Bye-bye.