Primordial Wholeness With Kit Myers & Simon Benn

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Kit, Kit Myers. I'm delighted to be chatting with you today, Kit. Listeners may have heard of Kit, he was one that has been on the show in the past and I interviewed him. And today we're doing it, turning it the other way around, so Kit's gonna be interviewing Me. And I guess we're gonna have more of an exchange of, uh, a, a, an exchange of ideas and, uh, a strip— what do they call it? Um, a, a streams of consciousness about this, uh, this idea of primordial, uh, wholeness. So thanks, uh, Kit, for, for stepping up to the plate to do this. I really appreciate your help with it, my friend.

Yeah, of course. It's good to, it's good to see you, uh, and it was great to see you in Leeds, um, just a few months ago.

Yeah.

That was a really nice surprise. And, uh, yeah, I look forward to this conversation. It's very interesting. Um, you know, when you reached out to me and we've— even when we— before we did our first podcast and, and as we did that podcast, um, you know, my understanding of your perspective is, is this like you know, healing perspective. And so this is— it seems to be kind of developing that. So I'm interested to hear about that. Of course, I think I have my own perspective that is a little bit in tension with yours, but I think that would be a great conversation.

Yeah, I think these sorts of tensions between Friends can— we can find space for that. we, we can make space for that and we can stretch, we can stretch out our, our opinions. Um, so we're, we're friendly differences rather than the more antagonistic differences that we see, um, especially, uh, on social media, in politics, whether that's US or UK. Um, so yeah, uh, friendly differences and, and stretching each other's thinking is Right.

So it's this is like a international friendly rather than like a derby, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Kit's a soccer fan. So we met in we met up in Leeds at that adoption conference. And so I but I think your loyalties are to a southern soccer team, if I'm right.

To Arsenal.

To Arsenal.

Yeah, yeah. This side.

The Gunners. The Gunners. Yeah, he's got a Gunners t-shirt on for those listening, right? say, uh, the Gunners or the Gooners. They also— yes, the, the, the, the Gooners.

So, um, I know.

Yeah. Do you remember a guy, a, a, a, a star in the '70s? He's just gone out my head. Um, the, the guy's just an Irish guy, David O'Leary. Do you remember him ever? That's before your—

Yeah, yeah, before my study.

Before your time. Yeah. Um, so David O'Leary, uh, was a big—

an Irish guy.

a key player, a great player for Arsenal in the '70s. But he came up north, he managed Leeds for a while, Leeds United, in the '90s, before Leeds imploded due to financial challenges.

Oh no.

So there's a connection, there's an Arsenal—

There's a connection. All right, well, That's awesome. Okay, well, let's, uh, you know, um, go ahead and start with, uh, you know, I think the, the first thing I'm most interested in is, is what you mean by, uh, this concept of primordial wholeness.

Primordial wholeness, right? So I'm gonna give it to you in a couple of lines and, and one, and one metaphor, right? So we, um, People say that— people used to believe that adoptees come as a blank slate, right?

Yes.

And now we know they don't come as a blank slate, right?

There's—

the trauma is written on their slate, right? Trauma is written on their slate. Sometimes it's in like tiny 6-point Text, right? Sometimes it's 50. It's a 50-point text. So trauma trauma's on the slate. But what I'm saying is is the primordial wholeness is the slate itself. It's it's not our it's not our psychology. Psychology. Our trauma is psychological. Uh, that's the, that's the chalk on the slate, but we're the, we're the slate itself. And so the slate is what some people might call consciousness. Consciousness is, is, is the, is the slate, and there is trauma on the slate, but we, we are consciousness. We are the slate itself.

Okay. Uh, you know, yeah, that, that, um, I mean, I love the, the, the font size metaphor, um, and that's really helpful to think about, uh, you know, making a distinction between, uh, what is the, that sort of trauma and what is Ourselves. So yes, you're quite— yeah, yeah, you're saying that the slate, um, it is not blank and it is, uh, it is ourselves, and the trauma is just— it is up on the slate, but it is not defining.

It doesn't define it. If we define ourselves as consciousness, if we just define ourselves as I, I am, I am consciousness, then there is no trauma in that I am. The trauma is our psychology. And if I can stretch the metaphor a little bit further, right? So listeners, I don't— would you call yourself a transracial adoptee, Kit? Is that—

Yeah, a transracial and transnational adoptee.

Transnational adoption, right? So sometimes there's different layers of chalk on the, on the slate, right? So we might have some, um, we, we might have some kind of, uh, generational, some generational trauma, a layer of chalk on, on a, on, on a slate that's generational trauma. We might have some trauma from, uh, that— so that might be from our forefathers, right? Or from our, from our parents. My, my biological father was in and out of care himself, right? I think you're into— you lecture on race and those subjects, right? So if we think of the African Americans and the descendants of slaves, you know, and we the Brits were the instigators of this slave trade, this horrific thing, right? So Um, think about— so there's, uh, African Americans are struggling, um, suffering with generational trauma. Think about, uh, a— think about, uh, the Jews who have been, um, have been persecuted as well, and the generational trauma that passes down through there. So we've got a layer of generational trauma. We might have some in utero trauma. So our, our birth mother is going through tricky stuff, right? And, and, and that's causing her trauma. And we're pickled, we're pickled in her, in her cortisol, right? The stress hormone that, that's going on for her. So, um, in utero, then we think about the relinquishment trauma, like the loss of our birth mothers. Um, then we think about growing up in a, in a, in, in a space where we're the only Asian American in town. We've got those lack of— there's the lack of, what do they call it, genetic mirroring, and that clearly brings a layer of trauma as well. And maybe we get bullied, maybe we get bullied because of our race or because of us being different in some way, and there's another layer of trauma on that. So the there's, there's, there's layers of trauma that are building up along this slate, but we're the slate. Us, I, I, as consciousness, we are the slate.

Some—

so some people might call it consciousness, some people might call that awareness, or we might call it simply I, like I, I am, right? Before, before I am Simon or I am Kit or I am an adoptee, or I am a mum, or I am a dad, or I am, I am angry, or I am sad, or I am traumatized, right? It's the, the I am is the slate, that I am that is consciousness, that I am that is awareness. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, okay. Um, and so Yeah, you're talking about, yeah, these different layers of chalk, or, and really, yeah, the different, the array of traumas that someone who is adopted could experience.

Yeah, and the general public.

Experience.

And the general public.

Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, even beyond adoption. Even beyond adoption, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so, yeah, then, then, yeah, to me it doesn't seem like you're, um, I mean, you're using, uh, primordial, um, primordial wholeness. Yeah, it kind of, it, it seems to be, uh, in maybe not juxtaposition, but, uh, in relation to, uh, Um, this book, uh, by Nancy Varen, is that correct? Yeah, The Primal Wound.

Primal Wound.

Yeah. So yeah, can you explain, maybe touch on, you know, how— because to me, maybe it doesn't feel like they're— the way that you explain it, they're not necessarily at odds with each other. Um, but you could maybe explain how you think about the primal wound and how this fits or doesn't fit within the concept that you're sort of offering.

So, um, The Primal Wound was, as you say, written by Nancy Verrier, um, and published in 1993. So Nancy has, or had— I'm not sure, I'm pretty sure she's still alive— um, she has 2 daughters, a biological daughter and an adopted daughter. And she was trying to understand the difference between how those 2 daughters of hers were in the world, and she couldn't find anything that really explained the, the behavior of, of her adopted daughter. So she, she started to research this. She was a— she was a— I think she was a medical doctor that became a psychologist. I think that's the way around it was. Um, and she, she researched this and she came up with this notion of a primal wound. So it's relinquishment trauma is what she's talking about. And so we went from a place in the adoption world where we were trauma blind to becoming trauma aware. And Nancy Verre's book was kind of at the forefront of, of, uh, trauma awareness. So the, the difference between— and I've, I've read the, I, I've, I've read the book, um, and my own experiences with the book were kind of relief— this explains everything— to I'm stuck. I'm stuck with, with the wound, uh, the, the primal wound. And then the third reaction was, I, I'm not stuck with the wound. Who, who I truly am, who we truly are, is unwoundable, right? So that was my first inkling of what I'm now calling primordial wholeness. So does that kind of set— is that all clear? That sense— he's a lecturer at university, at college, right? Listeners, he's a bright guy, but I'm just checking. Am I just being— am I being clear?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's— yeah, I think that explains kind of exactly You know, Nancy's, um, uh, concept that—

Theory.

Yeah, yeah, this theory, um, of the primal wound. I mean, having this sort of psychological, physiological, and spiritual, um, trauma that occurs from separation. And then, and then you're— yeah, you're sort of, um, very interesting, uh, telling of your reaction because I think I think it probably mirrors other readers who— for whom it really resonates, where they're like, yes, this helps explain why I have these feelings that are tied to abandonment and loss, and that this trauma is something that is kind of deeply a part of me.

Yeah.

And then, but I think your instinct, and maybe even, I mean, others too, I'm sure, um, is the question, uh, you know, well, does this, you know, again, does this define who I am? Uh, and you're, you're sort of saying that no, no, it doesn't define who I am.

It is. So if, if I, um, you said that the primal and psychological physiological, and spiritual, right?

Right.

And now, uh, people use these terms in, in different, in, in, in different ways and have different definitions of those terms, right? So I, I, um, for me, spirit is Spirit is another word. It's another word for the slate, and it's another word for consciousness, and it's another word for awareness, right? So spirit, consciousness, awareness, uh, spirit, consciousness, and awareness, and the slate are— for me, they're all the same thing. So they're either synonyms or synaphores, like a metaphor that makes it sound right. She says— Nancy Verrier says that the, the wound is spiritual. And I would say, I would, I would argue that the spirit is unwoundable. The spirit is unwoundable because the slate is unwoundable. The slate is hidden by the— It's hidden by the chalk. But it's not damaged by the chalk, the chalk on the the chalk on the slate. Yeah, so trauma is a it conceals our essence. It doesn't cut, damage, wound, impact, tarnish, destroy. Whatever, right? Spirit is— spirit is unwoundable, and primordial wholeness is, is my way of, of describing that spirit. So she says that the, the primal wound is spirit, and— sorry, the primal wound is spiritual. And I'm saying No, it, it's psychological. It isn't spiritual, and that's the difference. Okay.

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, hold on. So, uh, um, okay, say that one more time. The primal wound from her—

from Nancy Verrier says that the primal wound is spiritual.

Yes.

My, uh, my belief, uh, my rationale is it's not spiritual because spirit can't be wounded. The primal wound is psychology, is psychological. So, okay, yeah, it's psychological, it's not spiritual. It doesn't hurt our essence. Yes, the primal trauma doesn't damage our essence. We are whole underneath the wound. We are intact beneath the wound. Trauma has hidden us. It hasn't harmed us. It's concealed us. It hasn't hurt us. It hasn't cut us. I, I am it. I am whole, intact, complete, not damaged, good to go. I just sometimes feel insecure. I just sometimes feel, uh, rejected. I, I, I, I project rejection, right? I project— my psychology projects rejection onto the world which isn't there. It's— I'm making it up. I, I— my psychology is um, projecting rejection that doesn't actually exist in, in reality. So can I give you an example of, of that?

Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great.

So, um, this is 40 years ago. I'm, I'm walking back, I'm walking back from the pub, and, uh, I see an ex-girlfriend walking towards me with a new boyfriend. and, and her, and her mum. And as we pass on the pavement, she ignores me. So I, I say to her, uh, don't, don't say hello then, Fiona, because she blanks me, she ignores me, right? Um, I, I, a couple of seconds and nothing happens, right? She, she, she— when I say don't, um, When I say to her, don't say hello then, Fiona, she doesn't respond. She just goes back the other way, right? She goes— we pass along the sidewalk, right? We pass on the pavement and she goes back in. 2 minutes later, I turn around to talk to one of my friends who's walking behind me and a fist lands in my face and it's her new boyfriend.

Oh my God.

It's a new boyfriend who has taken offense to what I've said and decided to take it out, his anger and his frustration, on me. And I go down like a sack of bricks, right? Because he's a big guy, he's 6 foot 3, he's probably like a good 60 pounds heavier than me. I go down on the floor, right? So And my friend has to pull him off. So I, I thought that that girl was rejecting me. I projected rejection onto it. But then 35 years later, I realized she was actually defending me. She didn't want me to be hurt. She knew her boyfriend Her boyfriend was a gorilla and an angry gorilla. So by not saying hello to me, she wasn't rejecting me. She was keeping me out of harm's way. Because what happened? What happened when the guy came? When the guy— when I stoked that guy's anger, he came back and took it on me because I'm projecting rejection. I'm projecting rejection onto her. So because my psychology—

because the—

because being, uh, relinquished by my birth mother has impacted my psychology. But I'm not myself. I am, I am primordially whole, whole. And we, we all are. We all are. We, we've just got our our essence and our psychology mixed up.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I— yeah, I appreciate the example. I mean, I think this is, you know, an area where, yeah, there's a lot of contention because you have Um, so the way that I sort of perceive it is that, um, is that like, I don't think Nancy would say we were wholly defined by the primal wound, but that there is this primal wound and it is— it has affected us in a very substantial way. And, but I don't, I don't know that the claim is that it, it it like defines who we are, but that it— that to sort of say that it doesn't exist, which is not what you're saying, but to say that it doesn't like affect who we are at our core, I think is, um, maybe the argument. And, and I think I would agree with her, um, in that it is this very substantial thing. And, you know, at first, while you're growing up, You know, the narrative that oftentimes I think adopted individuals are told is one that kind of smooths up— it does either one of two things. One is whether it might smooth out the traumatic sort of timeline, so to speak, so that in order to protect you as a child, the parents might say, oh, you know, yeah, this happened. Your parents couldn't take care of you. And therefore, we, you know, we were looking to— to expand our family or create a family and to kind of smooth that over. The other sort of way that narrative could be told is that, well, there was a trauma, and the trauma was that you were institutionalized or that you would've grown up poor or whatever.

Yeah.

I mean, in the US context, it's like, you know, your mother would've been, you know, was a drug addict or neglected you you, or that you would have grown up on a reservation, or, um, or for a lot of Asian adopted, uh, individuals, it's that, um, uh, yeah, you would have grown up in a sort of, uh, in an orphanage in a backwards country.

That would be another layer.

And, and devalued. So, but, but the— so you have this like kind of story, and then so the Primal wound is saying, okay, well, yeah, there's this story that is told about adoption, and the primal wound is trying to say, well, you know, what about the story that is told is not really accurate? It's not accurate at all because there's these different— there's this main trauma. But, you know, I would argue that there's like— That there are 3 levels of trauma. One is like the trauma that sort of happens structurally to create the condition for separation. Like, why does most traumas— or most, you know, family separation is due to kind of a structural reason, whether that's like religious, sort of moral.

Mm-hmm.

policing that took away children from, you know, mothers who are—

Like Indigenous people in the US?

Or even in Ireland and in England. I mean, you know, mothers are having their babies taken away from them. But certainly, yes, in like the US Native American and Canadian and Australian contexts as well. And so there's the structural issue, or even in domestic contexts where just that a woman is not supported socially or economically to be a single parent.

Right.

And then the moment of separation and then the possible institutionalization. I mean, I don't know if we combine those two, but, and then after that moment, during the, like, the phase of adoption, that journey of adoption, that subsequent trauma can happen when, you know, the experiences of adoptees are negated by—

Yes.

Maybe the adoptive family. They're saying, oh, you know, your history is not important, or your birth family is not important, or whether it's, you know, strangers who kind of say that. So, or whether they sort of ignore the fact, you know, the issues that you talked about, maybe it's like racial isolation, or maybe it's that, you know, families aren't understanding why their child might be affected by police killings in the United States or ICE kidnappings, and they're sort of oblivious to that. So this is kind of a retraumatizing of adopted individual, because, you know, in trauma theory, you know, one of the— there's this scholar named Jenny Atkins, and she talks about trauma takes place when you think the thing that will protect you actually, you know, the site of refuge will enact harm. And so, you know, these different moments in which you think you'll be safe, you know, maybe, you know, right after birth and, um, in your new adoptive family, right? They're sort of producing these different forms of trauma. And do they, like, define you wholly? I mean, I agree with you. I don't think they define you wholly. But I actually do think that they produce wounds in, in the slate, like, not, not like wholly defining reconstituting wounds, but wounds that are very real and, and valid and, and impactful. Um, and so I think it's like, if by, like, wholeness, I think, and even like the The, um, you know, the idea of healing for me is like, I think most people can heal. I think most people can heal, um, after being adopted. But I think there's some people who— and, and I wouldn't just say it's like just psychological. I mean, I think we could— it's instinctual for us to say this is just a psychological barrier for them to heal.

Mm-hmm.

But I mean, if we think about like sort of Indigenous epistemology and the way that we come into the world and how we are linked to not just like our mother, but how we're connected to land. And so I think about like a lot of cultures bearing their— the mother's placenta. As, as, uh, for various reasons. And in some cultures, um, uh, like, you know, Native Hawaiian, Maori, and, um, Native American, like Navajo, they're bearing it to connect the child to the land. And so that removal from that, the land, to somewhere else that is wholly sort of disconnected, it could be like 20 miles or it could be 3,000 miles, right? Right, does something to the, I think, to the spirit because the spirit was, you know, emerged from this place. And then, and what happens, you know, at like the, one of the reasons why placenta is buried is because, for instance, in like Hmong culture, When a person dies, there's a shaman who guides the spirit back to the placenta, and you have to remember where the placenta is born for them to be able to transition to the afterlife. And so there's these— You know, in another culture, in other cultures, like the placenta is seen as like the older sibling, the twin or the older sibling who is Whose role it was to protect the child in utero, and then even sometimes into sort of the— even though the placenta is buried, to still protect the child as it grows up into adulthood. And so I think what in fact Nancy kind of misses with the primal wound, because it's very focused on—

Domestic.

More psychological And domestic, but, but thinking about these larger structures and also in the way that, you know, Indigenous epistemology is, is, is thinking about kinship beyond the mother-child relation and thinking about, well, there's these answers. I mean, for instance, again, once more to think about the placenta example. Oftentimes it's buried to be a connection to ancestors. for the child. And so again, when— if you like, you know, extract, uh, separate— I mean, and some people, you know, view themselves as being stolen, um, from that place and from that relationship to not only the mother but to the land, then that, that wholly affects their— I mean, yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe not, not completely, but it significantly affects their, their being, their ontological sort of understanding of themselves. And I think it— the, the major moment is when we talk about that moment of consciousness. You know, people have used the, you know, coming out of the fog, and now, you know, some other folks have came out with the adaptive consciousness model. And I think that's when it goes like this step further of just realizing that there are so many things that affected how you came to be you. And certainly you have the power to like psychologically sort of battle the sort of— past trauma and to figure out ways to navigate it and manage it. And ultimately, I mean, I think the goal is to heal, you know, sort of, but I think part of it is like, are we healing like past the trauma? Are we healing so that like the trauma doesn't, no longer is—

Repeated.

Relevant, like we've, we've just sort of conquered, quote unquote, conquered trauma? Or are we healing toward, uh, sort of acknowledging that trauma exists and affects us, um, and being okay that that trauma affects us, but, but knowing that we can actually be these other things and it doesn't have to like define who we are?

Yeah, there's a lot there, Kit. Um, there's a lot there. If I'm— and I'm If I was to— um, oh, let me start with the fog. Okay, so the, the fog for me is when we become conscious of the trauma or the source of the trauma that we have been unconscious about.

Right.

Yeah. Does that kind of— yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

So for me, if— so the fog lifts, right? Go with me on the metaphor. The fog lifts and we see the storm that is trauma. So that's a scary moment. Coming out of the fog is scary because we, we, we feel the— we see the storm, we see that, we see the storm cloud, right? We, um, you've talked about grief, I think, right? That, that it's, it's a thunderstorm, right? So the grief is, is, is, is the tears of, of the rain, right? The, uh, the, the thunderclap is the, the loud noise of our anger, right? So for me, when I came out of the fog, it was, it was an angry kind of thing rather than a tearful thing.

Mm-hmm.

And then we've got the, we've got the, the bolts of, of, of lightning, right? Which, which is our, our fear or our terror, if If I'm gonna kind of ramp up the, the trauma metaphor, right? So we come out of the fog, we see the storm, um, we, uh, we, we, we're crying our eyes out, or we're angry as hell, or we're scared as hell, or we're all of those things all at the same time. Terrified, terrified, furious, and grieving. Right? Those are the main kind of trauma adoption, relinquishment trauma kind of things that, that kind of strike, strike me, right? And we're the sky. We're the sky. We're the space in which our trauma comes and goes. So this is, you know, you've been talking about different kind of, um, different cultural views around, um, you know, the burying the placenta. You've been talking about different, uh, different kind of cultural, cultural narratives about our essence, right? Well, I, I'm talking about what a cultural narrative here about our essence, but I'm, I'm leaning on uh, like a Buddhist metaphor, which is to define ourselves as the sky. And so I think we can, we can pick them, we can pick the metaphors, and we do. That's what we're doing is we're, we're picking the metaphors that, um, that kind of prove prove our beliefs. I think that's what we're doing. So I'll stop and take a breath at that point.

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate the sky metaphor. I mean, and I think part of it is like, you know, with the fog metaphor, I think the reason why some people didn't like it is because it felt too individualistic, and it kind of felt like, um, it, it felt too kind of linear in terms of like a before and after, right? That, that there was this moment and then after it, it's like, it's, it's kind of, um, you're either in it or you're out of it. And, and, um, and so, you know, I think we can—

the scholars I think we come in— I think we go through multiple layers of it. My— yeah, not I think, my experience is, yeah, that I have come in and out of the fog. So it's, it's more like, um, to use another metaphor, it's more like peeling an onion.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, um, I mean, I think what you're arguing is, is that, um, I mean, it's almost As if, um, we, we— and there's actually another, um, you know, there's, uh, Chaitra, and, uh, oh, this is horrible, but I'm forgetting Chaitra's last name. Uh, she, she's a—

Oh, Chaitra Lerner Welker. Yeah, Chaitra.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Um, she has— I saw her give a presentation on, like, uh, adoptee superpowers and, and sort of thinking about these challenges that adoptees have and then inverting those challenges to think of them as like superpowers. And, and it's a very interesting presentation and an argument that she's making. And I think you're kind of making a similar one in sort of saying like, we do have the power to Kind of, even if it's like a difficult thing that we're going through, and like maybe the behaviors that we exhibit both as a young child but also as maybe as a grown adult, that there might be these very identifiable manifestations that are linked to adoption trauma, that, that we do have like the psychological and maybe spiritual, um, power to, uh, kind of have greater control than, than we think. And so that if we, if we are the sky, then, then the storm, uh, we, we actually can, um, control this, the storm, so to speak, or how much the storm might— We can't, we can't come out.

We can't control— the sky doesn't control the, the storm. The sky can't control the storm, but it doesn't need to because it, it knows it's not going to be damaged by it.

I see what you're saying. Okay, okay. So yeah, I mean, I, I think again, I mean, I'm, I'm with you to, to some extent.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I'm there with you for like the idea of us being, um, where— and this is where, like, part of me is very practical. And then the other side of me is like, I think, thinking about how does this play out in real life. And so, so for the example is like my mom, when I was young, she had me read this book, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. Have you heard of this book?

I have, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I enjoyed it. I read it like a while ago. Yeah, it's good. It's a good book.

Yeah, I mean, I read this probably as a teenager or something, and I appreciated the message of the book. And the thing is, you can't call adoption responsible. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was absolutely helpful for me and sort of navigating everyday sort of things. But especially once I learned, you know, I took ethnic studies classes and I learned, okay, there's like things that are beyond our control and, and they have like these real effects on us so that like no matter how hard you sort of, you know, whatever. No matter how much you have like a positive attitude, or no matter how much you sort of take a challenge, take something negative that happens and turn it into a challenge, like there are some people that experience trauma and hurdles and stuff to an extent to where it— It can be, not just feel, but it can literally be insurmountable. And so there's this, you know, there's this definition of racism by Ruth Wilson Gilmore, and she says racism is the state-sanctioned vulnerability to premature death. So that the state allows certain people to die prematurely. And so if we take, you know, racism and, and these other sorts of, you know, classism, uh, or even like sexism and how, how, you know, you think about like domestic violence or, um, uh, and these other things that have like, um, powerful sexual violence, really impactful, um, things that happen to people And history has shown that it's— it has like real consequences, both psychologically and economically, and then of course in terms of mortality. And so for me, I think the only caution here with this is— or the main caution with this is that Um, is that there is this idea that— and I think it kind of has this long history, uh, in Western philosophy, um, of the, the sort of transparent I, this like subject who kind of, um, you know, thinks and therefore is. And, and kind of the way that that has unfolded is that, you know, the European consciousness and, and mind has, um, sort of full control and, and full faculty, full faculties, um, that enable it to sort of manifest itself. Um, and then the, the argument has been that, you know, racial others don't have this ability. Um, which I, you know, I obviously, I don't think either of us Either of us, none of us, neither of us believe that. But I think, um, so I think my argument is that, you know, that as individuals who have consciousness, we actually are affected.

Very.

Like, we, we are, our consciousness is continually affected. And so the, the sort of attempt to believe that we can sort of go beyond being affected, um, seems to be something that is, is like an idea. Like, that's an idea. We— the idea is that we cannot be affected is one that theoretically can happen. But in practice, I think, you know, 90 9% of people. Like, the, the reality is, is that we are deeply affected. And regardless of, like, what our slate is, or if we are the sky, that, that there are these other things that are continually sort of bombarding us. And, uh, and, and if we think of, yeah, time as, as not linear, not progressive, right? Linear and progressive, like things are getting better as I'm navigating my ability to sort of move past my trauma, but that time is kind of, you know, up and down or circular or sporadic or disrupted, then the idea that we can sort of say that we can sort of get back to or understand the slate as a whole, I think becomes more difficult. Yeah.

Sorry, I interrupted you a couple of times in that bit.

That's okay.

So I apologize. So have you— you just talked about— you're talking clearly about horrific acts of, of, of mankind here, right? So, um, killing, killing people because they don't— they're not like us. This is, this is, this is just completely horrific, right? I, I'm not sanctioning, clearly not sanctioning any of that.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely don't think—

yeah. On the subject of mortality, Have you read any books about near-death experiences? Or what, have you heard of near-death experiences?

Yeah, I have. I've heard of them and listened about, but never— I haven't read anything about it. Okay.

Um, so I have read a couple of books about near-death experiences. One of whom, one of which is written by an adoptee, and and and who is a brain a brain surgeon, and the book is called Proof of Heaven.

I've heard of that, yes.

Yeah, so he's an adoptee. He's an adoptee.

Oh, I didn't. I don't think I knew that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so he's called Eben Alexander. Eben Alexander. And what he, what he and other near-death experience, some of the near-death people that have experienced near-death experiences, what, what they see is that conscious consciousness has us, not we have consciousness. So what, what that means— most people think that we identify with our body. We identify with our body and we think our body has consciousness. Whereas what, what, uh, Eben and other of those people say— and I, I'm in this camp, I mean, in that camp— is Consciousness has our bodies.

So consciousness has our bodies is is another way of another way of saying that is that consciousness is the sky and and and the clouds are the clouds of yeah okay yeah yeah yeah yeah I yeah and and that that's actually really interesting and in part because my mom actually She gave me that book, but, but I never read it. Uh, I'm not, I'm not religious, but what's very interesting is your statement, um, is kind of like it, um, it does, I feel like, relate to Buddhism and reincarnation. Like, you know, the body is just, um, kind of a vessel that gets recirculated, you know. Um, over many lifetimes. And so, and if we take it for that approach, uh, and, and because, you know, part of— I think my mom, who is spiritual but not religious, um, what she kind of believes is that, you know, our life on this earth is, in the grand scheme of things, very insignificant, and that there's this greater plan for our sort of consciousness. Um, and so it's a very interesting thing to think about that, that we— and it goes back to like, you know, the don't sweat the small stuff. I think it's really effective for those sort of things. Um, and it's helpful to, to, um, use this idea of whether it's like an actual belief or whether it's just, um, like instrumental, uh, to sort of take this idea that, you know, our, our bodies are just vessels for our time here, our short time here on Earth.

Mm-hmm.

And really most of our life is somewhere else. Um, and so I think that is really useful because then the way that we approach life can be drastically different. Yeah, I think, you know, my main point is just that the realities that we live in, like, it doesn't have to be these sort of horrific things. It can just be the way that everyday life exists that affect people, and it becomes this sort of accumulation of things. I mean, I think I find it really interesting Um, when, uh, I mean, this is, this is not an example of everyday thing, but, uh, the, you know, the British, uh, fella, Milos, uh, who just got deported from the United States?

No, I've not heard about that. Sorry.

Yeah, it's this British guy. He's this super conservative guy who was, um, was doing speaking tours very young. doing speaking tours at college campuses in the United States on, on free speech and on, you know, needing stricter immigration laws. And, you know, even though he's a UK person, and he actually just got deported last week. And because he— something with overstaying a visa or something, I can't remember. Anyway, he's on the news and he's talking about how he's like kind of admitting that he didn't really believe the trauma that people were talking about when people are detained. And well, first arrested, and then, you know, just that very active arrest and then the detainment. And he was, you know, talking about humility, humiliation, and he was talking about he you know, just broke down and started crying. And here's this, you know, person who's like, spent, you know, years of his life promoting the deportation of people. And then once, you know, once he experiences it, he's like, I actually didn't realize what that felt like. And now, he's kind of come to this realization. And so I think part of it is that, you know, I think for me, both of these things can come together, like the primal wound and primordial wholeness can actually fit together in an interesting way to think about how we have to, like, for me, Really acknowledge the violence that produced the need for adoption, and then the violence of separation, and then the violence of that happens after adoption. When we think that adoption is supposed to resolve the violence, oftentimes it actually produces different, new and different forms of violence. And so for me, I think a lot of— Uh, adopted individuals kind of experience all 3 of those forms of violence, and that we should really hold space for that. And, but that, because just because we hold space for that doesn't mean that we can't heal in different ways, whether it's through somatic practices or spiritual practices or, you know, mental health.

Yeah.

Sort of traditional mental health practices. And I know a lot of adopted individuals like provide those services because I think they have felt a sense of healing through, you know, mental health and they become therapists or, you know, through practicing, you know, somatic practices and then they become a somatic practitioner. And so all of these things, I think, I'm starting to be more like, yes, I think we— there can't— there's healing to be done, and there's like a wholeness that we can think about. But like, for me, wholeness isn't like a— isn't like a, a slate that exists as it did in its origin. Like, the slate or consciousness is is actually always affected. Like, uh, because, yeah, that's just—

Yeah.

For me, um, that's what life is. You know, our consciousness is, is affected. Um, and, uh, but, but wholeness, wholeness can just mean that, that we acknowledge that the slate exists, uh, kind of before and beyond the things that affect us, but that there is still these other things that the, that the wholeness, um, contains.

Yeah.

And holds.

Um, so I, I think my personality is deeply affected.

Right.

Um, I've done some somatic experiencing, and, and that's cleaned some— that, that's cleaned some stuff off the slate, right? It's given me a closer view of, of the untraumatized slate. Um, we, we have a— we'd have a difference of a— we, we have a difference of an opinion on it, and that we've got 2 views, and that's what we set out to explore, and that kind of— that's what we've explored. The challenge is in the bit that— the challenge for me is in the physiological part, because you said trauma is psychological, physiological and spiritual, right? Um, and I think the bit for me is, you know, that we haven't really touched on the— we haven't really touched on the physiological one. Um, and that's a, that's a big can of worms and, and, and, and the trickiest bit to, to, to discuss, right? Because we identify with our bodies. We identify with our bodies and that, and, and Yeah, we say our body is us. Well, our body isn't consciousness in, in my definition of consciousness. Or, um, a guy called Max Planck, he's a quantum physicist. I've just got the book out, another Eben Alexander book out, and it's called The Map of Heaven. And, uh, Max Planck, he was a quantum physicist. I think he got a I think he got a Nobel Prize, I'm not sure, but it was 1858 to 1947 Max Planck arrived. And he says, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. Yeah, so consciousness is the slate, and he says the, the body comes from consciousness, not that consciousness comes from the body. And there's a difference here between a materialist— most scientists are materialists, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That, that say we are the body and the body has consciousness. And other people, including Eben Alexander and, and me and other— a tiny minority of people would say that consciousness has the body. And, and therein, therein lies the nub. But I can say that consciousness has, has the body, and I still do somatic experiencing, or I have done somatic experiencing. So I'm, I'm, I'm saying that the healing is to be done there, whether it's through somatic experiencing or EMDR or all different things like that. The healing has to be done physiologically. The healing has to be done psychologically. I'm just saying that spirit spirit is clean. But I, I am not— I am not denying that trauma has had a fundamental impact on my psychology, on my physiology. I have really bad startle response, right? Um, or bad in my view of the world. And, but I'm just saying that, um, that, that my my, uh, and my personality. So my personality, my psychology, my physiology, all of those things. But on, on, on me consciousness, the slate, the slate is, is clean. But that—

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Do you have time for one more question?

Of course.

Yeah. And so, okay, so yeah, and, and I, I do really I can— I hear you. And, and I think, um, and yeah, I think you've done, um, a fantastic job of, of sort of, of sort of articulating that, yes, there's this trauma, um, that, that you've experienced too, even as you're talking about this, this, uh, concept or perspective. So I guess the, the question then is, okay, you have— you You understand that this trauma exists and that there's this pre-trauma consciousness. Um, how, how does that understanding help you as you're still navigating the trauma that you've experienced?

In one sentence, I'm less scared of the storm.

Okay, so that's, that's the main takeaway point for, uh, that's the main hope you have for other adopted individuals, is that to understand ourselves as, as consciousness instead of the body who has— that has consciousness, um, to, uh, just be just that much more empowered to To—

less scared of the storm, but fundamentally undamaged, untainted, complete, intact, unmolested, good to go, good to go, good to go despite feelings, sometimes feeling that I'm not, right? So it's a, it's a, it's a different It's, it's, it's about to— it's, it's, it's, it's feeling differently about our feelings. It's feeling different. Yeah. About our trauma.

Okay. So is there still an internal, you know, dialogue inside of you then? I mean, where you're saying you're feeling good, that you're good to go, even if you're feeling that you're not good to go? Is there still—

I sometimes get the storm sometimes scares me still. My, my inner, my inner critic isn't silent. Yeah, but I, I just, I don't— I listen to the inner critic a little less than I, or a lot less than I used to do. So the voice in my head isn't, isn't as loud as it, it was, and it doesn't upset me as much as it used to do.

Yeah.

So more peace, right? The sky is peaceful. The sky is always at peace. The trauma, the storm's raging, but the sky's at peace. And we want peace and content, right? Thanks, Kit. You've been an absolute star. Thank you, listeners, too. Thanks for listening. Take care. We'll speak to you.

Yeah, it's been, it's been a great conversation. And thanks for inviting me to join you today.

Absolute star. Thanks, Kit. Thanks, listeners.

Bye-bye.