Avoid These Money Mistakes to Get Rich (ft. $1 Billion Fund Manager)

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Morgan Housel is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and is the author of the best selling book the Psychology of Money which has sold over 4 million copies worldwide. This is one of the best selling financial books of all time. I started writing by accident. It was never part of the play. Hi, I'm Morgan Housel. Welcome to the Burnouts.

Welcome to the Burnouts. This is so full circle for me because when I was first getting interested in like learning about finance, learning about money, I actually read your book the Psychology of Money, which which was like my introduction to how investing worked and stuff. So getting to have you on the podcast is a huge honor. So thank you for being here.

Honor for me to be here. Thanks for having me.

And you've said that every person's financial decisions are really shaped by their personal story. So actually I would love to start first with yours. How has your personal story evolved and how has that influenced your relationship with money?

What's interesting is that one of the I think fair criticisms of my book that I really have no rebuttal to is is a lot of people in other countries will say look, what you wrote might be true for a white American male, but as a female in China or as a male in Germany, whatever it might be, a lot of things you said just doesn't really fit with how we see the world. And I really have no rebuttal for that. And I think it highlights a very important point that I tried to make in the book, which is we are all prisoners of our past. We are all just shaped by what we've experienced. Because nothing is more persuasive than what you've experienced. Firsthand you can read about somebody else's story, but if you, but if you don't have the emotional scar tissue of being in their shoes and doing it, it's not going to be as persuasive as what you've experienced. So I, you, everybody, we all see the world through like a very unique lens. And you can try to be empathetic to other people, but nothing's going to be more persuasive than that. I think that has a big impact on money and how we think about money, because what I aspire to, what you aspire to, what we want to achieve for our families and whatnot, are very different. Not because one of us is right or wrong or because we disagree with each other. It's just we see the world through a different lens. And so, you know, I have parts of my upbringing that absolutely influenced me. I had some hard years when I was young that absolutely left some scars that are still with me, as I'm sure you and everybody else does. And one of the big takeaways from this is like, when we all see the world through a different lens, there is not one right way to think about money. We can't just say, here's the right way to do it. You should make this much, spend this much, save this month. It's, it doesn't work that way. It's just like everybody's a little bit different. And then so you naturally become a little bit less judgmental about other people who are doing it differently than you. And you don't try to have to chase people who are playing a different game than you are. And so people who are working harder, making more, spending more, whatever it might be, maybe that's right for them, but it's not right for you. And I think most bad financial decisions are people who are copying other people who are doing what's right for them, but it's wrong for you. And I think that that's a big thing. So I've been shaped by my, my background, I think for, like to, to actually answer your question now, I think, I think I had a lot of years in my late teens, early 20s. I had a unique background. I really didn't go to high school in any meaningful way. I was a competitive ski racer. I didn't do, I didn't have an, I did this independent study program. That was a joke. It didn't more or less bypassed high school. And then when my skiing career ended, I was 18. It was like, what now every other 18 year old was going off to College. And I was like, I basically have an 8th grade education at this point. There's no way I could possibly do that. And I had three or four years of like giant chip on my shoulder. I'm a nobody who's going nowhere fast. And that like it was such a. I think people will react to that situation differently. You either just kind of like stay pushed down in that little zone or for me it was like, I got to run away from this as fast as I possibly can and try to get in the other direction, not out of ambition but out of fear. And so I feel like a lot of my adult years, particularly in my 20s, was like, I got to run away from this terror that I had when I was 19 or 20 of recognizing that I was not in the position that I wanted to be in.

How did that manifest economically? When was there a change where you were like, okay, I'm no longer in this position.

I was working as hard as I possibly could and saving every penny of it. So I remember the summer when I was 19, I was working two full time jobs. So I'd work at one shift, 6, 6am to 2pm and then another job at another company, 3 to 11pm and I do that six days a week. And I was saving every single penny that I could. And, and again, it wasn't ambition, it was fear. I was saving every penny because I was like, I'm a nobody who, I don't even have a high school education. I'm a nobody. I need to save everything. Because it was just like I was hoarding because I was like the apocalypse was coming. That was the, that was the mentality at the time. And what's interesting is that an offshoot of that was I got interested in investing. And again, this was not like, oh, I'm going to be like a big hedge fund manager. Like I'm going to. It was just like, I'm, I'm so scared of this position I'm in. I need to invest to try to like build up a little bit of moat around my life so that I' so that I'm a little bit safer. And so I think that's where my investing ambitions came from. I was also, I grew up in a lovely family. My parents are wonderful, but it was a middle class family in a middle class town. And then I moved to Lake Tahoe in my, I guess, young teenage years. And then my first job was a valet at a five star hotel in Tahoe. And that was my first experience ever with wealthier people. I had Never seen them ever in my life. And it was like, oh my gosh, this guy's driving a Ferrari. Like I didn't even know that existed. And in my young, naive, low self esteem mind, I was like, that's what I want. That guy in the yellow Ferrari, like give me some of what he has. And a lot of it was so I think it was low self esteem at the time, which is probably not uncommon for a lot of teenagers. One thing that I think is really true is that if you can find your what's good in life from your ambition, your love, your intelligence, your humor, you'll get it from that. But if you can't get any attention from those like real traits, you'll try to get it by showing off with your car, your clothes, your house, your jewelry. People will love if you're funny and you can love and you're smart and you have wisdom, people will admire you for that. But if you don't have any of those, then the last remaining lever is look at my car. And so when I was 19, I was like, I want the Ferrari because I'm obviously not smart, I have no wisdom, I'm not funny, I've never, I don't know how to love anybody else. Like I didn't have anything else. So I gravitated towards materialism at that age. I didn't realize that at the time, but looking back, that's totally what it was.

You talk a lot in your book about this idea of like the hecatonic treadmill of just needing to get to the next thing to the next thing. And these invisible gains you can have if you put your money into the stock market and grow your wealth over time? And how many people actually get to a certain level of wealth but then lose it super fast because they're not investing smartly? And because there isn't an upper bound of when is enough enough. Girls our age call Ferraris and things that look like that. We call that little dick cars you feel the need to, if you have low self confidence and you feel the need to have that super sparkly watch or that car that's neon yellow, that's a Ferrari you're compensating for else. So I really love this notion of having the self confidence of figuring out what is the actual value I bring beyond, oh, look at this designer label I'm wearing.

I think a lot of that too. Like if you wake up and like your spouse loves you, your kids admire you, you love your job, your co workers are great, most people in that situation, do not say I'm yearning for the attention of strangers.

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When did that change for you? Where you're like, okay, it's not the materialism for me. And then during that period of time, what was the dumbest purchase you made?

Oh, okay, good. When that changed to me. I think I can very specifically specific moment when my first child was born, when my son was born. Every parent will say this. This is not unique to me. The moment your child's born, there's like a switch that flips and you're like, I don't matter anymore. Nothing's about me anymore. That's the only thing that matters at all. My wife and kid, like, that's it. And so that for me was so clear. That's when I stopped thinking about myself in a good way. But also like that probably that timing, that era of my life was also around. Like when my career started doing a little bit better and, and also happily married, I got a family. Like, that's again, like no one in that situation or few people in that situation will wake up and say, I want the attention of strangers with a fast Loud car and more materialism. And I'm not anti materialistic. I like, I like nice cars, I like nice homes and all of it. But you. I think there's, there's two kinds of ways to want a really nice house. Let's say a really nice house so that you can spend time with your friends and family and that's great. Or a big house because you're trying to show off for strangers and you want other people to look at it and other people driving by to say, wow, that person must be great. That's are two very different reasons to want a house. And so using money as a tool to gain the things that are actually make people happy. Family, health, friends, whatever it might be. That's awesome. That's wonderful. Using it to try to get the attention of strangers is, I think, a very hollow way to try to gain fulfillment from money. But it's very common. That was definitely me when I was 19 because I had nothing else to offer the world. I had nothing else to offer the world other than what if I had a car? Then they'd look at me and.

How do you deal in relationships where you might have different perspectives about money but you're married? How often are you and your wife talking about money? What do you guys disagree on? How do you like, talk about it together? Also when you're first dating, because a lot of our listeners are young and in their 20s. When should you first talk about money?

Yeah, my wife and I met when we were pretty young. I think she was 19, I was 21. So we were pretty young at the time. And I think that was good because we grew up as adults together. We, we were kids at the time and we became adults together. So we were able to like, grow together. I think it's much more difficult if you start a relationship later in life because then you're both going to come in with your own money baggage and baggage from other areas of life that you got to make blend together rather than learning it at the same time. I do think it's true that what's the saying, the things you have to agree on. I think it's kids, religion and money. Because if you don't agree on those three things, like very difficult to make any relationship work. I shouldn't be giving relationship advice on this, but it's like money is a big part of this. If you have one partner who's a big spender and one who's a big saver, that's a tough thing to overcome. It's. It's right up there with one person wants kids and the other doesn't. It's, it's almost as serious as that. Or like one is this religion, one is that religion. I think it's, I think it's in that same bucket. So it's, it's difficult to do. And when should you start talking about. I always think you don't need to talk about it. You'll be able to figure it out very quickly. And so you asked me what one of the dumbest purchases and like this was not dumb. This is, I don't regret this at all. And I was so proud of it at the time. But when my wife and I first started dating and we were really young, I bought her what at the time to me as a 21 year old, a very expensive watch. It really wasn't. But at the time it was in my 21 year old mind it was super expensive. I don't even know how much I was and if I said I would, I would embarrass myself or others wasn't even that much. It was a tag watch which for a night for a 21 year old was a big deal at the time. Maybe not so much anymore, but it was. But I think back to like, if people actually love you, you don't need like your desire for materialism, like wanes a little bit. But at the time, in my 19 year old, 19 year old mind I was like, if I buy this for her, she'll love me more. And like, look, we had a great relationship then, we have a great relationship now. It's like I didn't need to do it. But I think about this in hindsight. This was a long time ago of like, like I had this desire to give her something material. Was that because I didn't have anything else to give her? Like, I didn't have any humor or like love or wisdom to give her. Like I don't think, I don't think that's the case. But it's more of the case than it would be now.

It feels sometimes awkward when you are in a friendship or in a relationship when there might be a discrepancy in what people care about. Because some people might look at, okay, this person wrote me a note or something really meaningful because it doesn't have material value, they value it less. But that's like a person that you have different values than. But then someone else would be very appreciative and understand that that's something that meant a lot to you and also means a lot to them. But I think that's also a way that you navigate relationships to understand, like, whether or not you're fundamentally compatible with the other person. I also wanted to walk back to something I'm really fascinated by that you said, is that you're working two jobs. You were working six days a week. You were in this intense time period, and you started to save your money and you started to invest. I want to go back to that time period and really hone in on what were the big lessons that you learned, and how applicable do you think they are to young people who are starting out today.

At that point in my life, that summer when I was working two jobs, it was like I had. I had just had a bad breakup, and it was like, I need to distract myself. Like, I'm going to work two jobs just so. Like, I'm just distracted by anything else. I think that was. That was a big part of it. What's so interesting is I look back at that summer now with so much nostalgia. Like, that was so cool. I had, like, it. It wasn't ambition. It was. It was fear, but it, like, it looked like ambition. And like, I was. I feel like that was the summer that started my career. And I look back at it with so much nostalgia. But actually, at the time, I think I was very sad and depressed and didn't want any of it. I think nostalgia works that way a lot. You look back and you're like, that period was so great, but actually the time you're like, no, it's terrible. I had another experience about this. After college, my wife and I moved to Bellevue, and we had this awesome apartment. It was overlooking the lake, and we didn't have kids. Like, we could, like, sleep in and go out for brunch, and everything was great. And the other day, I was like, man, that was peak living. That was the best it had ever been. And she was like, what are you talking about? You were the saddest, most depressed, most, like, lost and anxious you had ever been. And she's right. But I look back, and when I look back, I'm like, it should have been good because we had this awesome apartment and we could sleep in. And, like, our careers were great. Like, everything. Everything should have been okay, but it. It actually wasn't. And so a lot of nostalgia is. You look back at things as they should have been, even if they were completely different at the time as they were. And so I, I. I think about that a lot. When I look back, it's like, oh, I should have Been happy. I remember it as being a happier time because it should have been because I know how it ended up. I know all the anxieties that I had at the time actually ended up just fine. Things worked themselves out. But I was full of anxiety back then.

I'm curious also about money anxiety because you said you were making money, you were saving every single dollar you were investing. What did that look like? And how can navigate that when they're first starting in their career and they might not have a lot of money?

I think it's true that Warren Buffett talks about this a lot. He's like people. I think no, it was a Charlie Munger quote. He said when you're teaching finance to young people, they either understand it instantly or never. And that's kind of a like a tough quote to, to deal with. But I think it's a lot, it's true. Like some people just either get it instantly. The first time they hear about compound interest they're like, got it as like, like here we go, let's go do it. And other people, it just doesn't really click for me. It absolutely clicked early on and like so when I was 19, I was like, I'm. I' saving for when I'm 70 years old, I'm going to invest this and it's going to compound until I'm an old, old man. That was definitely. So if you asked me when I was 19, what are you saving investing for? I'd be like for 50 years from now, that's what I'm doing it for. And I, when I look back at that now I'm like that, that is, that was awesome. That was the right way to do it. And I think I also, I was like, oh no. Like obviously the earlier you start, the more it's going to be. So I knew at the time I was like every thousand dollars that I save is going to turn into 25, 50,000, whatever it would be when I'm 70 years old. Like now's the time to start when you're young doing it. And I also, now that I look back I was like, I was of course brand new as naive investing education back then was not what it is today. There were not as many free resources to learn what not. So a lot of it was trial and error. You know when I first started investing it was like day trading penny stocks, which is every 19 year old boy's knee jerk reaction of what they should do in investing. And so I tried that obviously didn't work. Like moved on to something else, moved on to something else. Didn't really settle with where I am as an investor now until maybe 15 years ago or so. But everyone's always learning. I've invest so simple and boring, like pretty much dollar cost average into index funds, which means I just invest the same amount every month into a very broad pace, diversified, low cost fund that I hope to leave alone forever, pass to my kids or grandkids or something someday I really don't have. And I've never sold anything. I really don't think I'll ever sell anything meaningful. Just let it grow forever. That's it's as boring, as simple as you can make it, which is kind of the point. It's like the simpler that you make it, the more that you can focus on what actually matters. Which to me is like endurance and longevity just keeping, just keeping the investments going for as long as they can. I think a lot of people in investing, particularly smart people, like high iq, high educated people, are like, let's try to make this as complicated as we possibly can. And they do. And it makes sense because in other areas in life, like if you want to get in really good shape, you're like, go to the gym and work really hard. And the harder you work, the better shape you're going to be in. But for investing, it's one of the few fields where you're like, the harder you try, the worse you're probably going to do. The more complicated you make it, the worse you're probably going to do. And so if you could just keep it as brainless and simple and boring as you can and focus on like endurance, longevity and then using that time that you spare that you freed up to spend time doing other things that you enjoy. That's always been my, my philosophy for it.

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One thing I'd love for you to touch on, because this is one of my main, main takeaways when I first read your book is talking about how you think about, you know, when is enough enough. And I think one thing that you really highlighted is the amount of people who make it on, you know, the Forbes Richest list but then fall off of that versus other people who do compound interest over time. Can you talk about what the risks are when you don't just do boring investing or you don't do something like that and you're actually constantly chasing the next thing?

It's almost so the question you want to ask for investing is not what are the highest returns that I can earn? It's what returns can I keep going for the longest period of time? It's yeah, you want to think about it as, as a marathon. And like what most people do is instead of run marathon, like the, the start gun goes off and they just sprint as fast as they possibly can because the, the knee jerk reaction for investing is like, how can I earn higher returns? I've done a lot of groups, a lot of like sessions with high schoolers and they're so smart. They're smarter than my generation was because they have more information. But every single one, without exception, they will ask some version of the question what penny stock should I buy tomorrow to become richest as fast as I can? Because that's every smart kid's intuition is like, how can I earn the highest returns? Of course that's what I should be doing. And it's not like if you can be average, if you could be an average investor for an above average period of time, like just earn average market returns every year for the next 20 years. You'll do amazing. You'll like, you'll be in the top 1% of all investors if you can do that, just being average every single year. And again, that's actually, I think there are other examples of that, like in, in, in sports and whatnot. If you can be like an, if you can be an average player, but just do it consistently over time, like you're going up pretty good over time. It's, you don't need to be a superstar for two minutes. And so I, I think, I think that's, it's, it's not intuitive at all. In investing, the intuition is to try to make it as complicated as you can. But the simple people who can be simple and average for 50 years are the ones who end up doing the best.

Well, I think it's also interesting though that you had this level of discipline where you were making money and you were just saving it and you were young and you weren't spending it impulsively. Why do you think that was? And how do you think that young people can avoid the temptation of wanting to buy the really nice car or wanting to impress other people?

For me, it was all fear. I don't think I knew that at the time, but looking back it was like, oh, I have a good, like a decent job now, but it's probably not going to last because I'm a nobody. It was like fear and low self esteem. So that was my big incentive to save. All throughout my late teens, 20s, maybe even early 30s. I think that was my driving mindset. Even if I didn't really know it at the time. It was, whatever I have is not going to last and I need to prepare for the apocalypse. That was kind of, that's not really my view anymore, but that's really what it was at the time. But I think there's also a lot of people who have, are big savers, big investors who are the opposite. They are like so ambitious and optimistic that they're like, oh, like I got, I got to swing for the fences and do this. I actually think like to that those polar mindsets like can meld together where I've always called like reasonable optimism, where you're very optimistic on where you're going over the next 20 years, but you're very cognizant of how hard it's going to be to get there. And so like you're very up like in 20 years. Like, yeah, we're going to be way better off in 20 years. Like the country, the world will be richer, more productive, have better medicine in 20 years, but it's going to be very hard to get there. It's going to be a constant chain of recessions and pandemics and political crises and whatever it might be. So you can be very optimistic about where you're going and scared out of your mind waking up every day. And I think that was definitely my mindset. Like, when I was 20, I was like, oh, I'm investing for the next 50 years, and I'm so optimistic about what that's going to achieve. But I am scared out of my mind right now that I might lose my job and I need to save everything.

But how do you enjoy your life if you're only saving for future you and you're not spending on present you?

Such a good question. Yes, I, I do think that for me, my goal out of money, particularly in the last 10 years or so, is independence. It's not a bigger house, it's not a faster car. I want to be independent. I want to wake up every morning and to say, I can do whatever I want today with whomever I want to do it with for as long as I want to do it with. And money that you like, money that you save is the oxygen of independence. So if you save $1,000 in the bank, that is a piece of your future that you own, that belongs to you. It's just delayed consumption. And so money that I save, I don't view it as like, oh, I'm just hoarding it and not spending it. And I don't view that savings as the vacation that I didn't take. I view that as a chunk of independence. And independence is, is on a spectrum. It's not either like, you can, like, you have to work or you're retired young. It's not that if you save a hundred dollars, that is a little bit of flexibility. That if you were to be laid off, like, maybe you can, like, wait a little bit and try to find a job that fits your personality or has a shorter commute. Like, every dollar that you save is going to give you a little bit more independence that you have had before. So that when I save money today, I don't, I don't view that as like, oh, like, I'll spend this some point in the future. I'm like, oh, I'm more independent now than I was before. And everyone's material desires are different. Some people like cars, some people don't. Some people like travel, some people don't. I think everybody likes independence. Everyone likes waking up and doing whatever you want to, to do. And I forget who said the quote, but I love the quote of like, the honor of a lifetime is to become who you truly are. To become like, like not playing somebody else's game, not on somebody else's schedule. But just, I'm doing this job, I'm doing this work because it's what I'm supposed to do. And you can only do that when you're independent.

If you're quietly compounding and building that up. How often are you looking at your bank account? How often are you checking in on your investments?

I look quite a bit. But what's important is that even if I might check my brokerage account every day, I'm not taking action on it. I think markets are fascinating. I think markets are like a window into society about what people are optimistic about.

So much psychology with it.

Absolutely. And so I think when. I think markets are a fascinating thing to watch. But if you're watching it and that's tempting you to take action, that's a different story every time. If you open up your Robinhood account and you're like, I gotta buy. Buy this, sell this and try, that's probably destructive behavior that you're gonna end up regretting. So I check quite a bit. The other thing is, particularly for young people, I think the simplest tip that is sounds so kindergarten basic. Check your bank account every single day. Most people, when they come into financial problems, it's because they had no clue how much money they were making, no clue how much money they were spending. It wasn't lack of intelligence. It out of sight, out of mind ignorance. And so that's like the very first financial tip for most people is like, it takes two seconds. Check your bank account every day. Most people have no clue how much they have in the bank, how much they're earning. Most people, if you ask them, what is your salary, could not give you an answer that is accurate within, you know, 20% or so. There's so much ignorance in finance, and for a lot of people, they want to be ignorant of it because they're too scared to look. But that's. That's the first. That's the first reason of why you need to look. It's no different than, like, if you wanted to get into better, it's like, you should probably start tracking what you're eating because most people are completely clueless about it. And if you ask them, are you eating 2,000 calories a day, 7,000 calories a day, they would have no clue whatsoever. There's the equivalent of that with money.

A lot of people also don't know what they're spending. It's really interesting to me because I was talking to a friend recently who was talking about how she didn't know that her credit score was really bad and then she found out because she was applying to get an apartment. And then they reject her application. And then I was like, well, do not check your credit card statements to see how much you're spending every month. And. And she was like, no, I never thought about that. And then I was like, well, then how are you budgeting or thinking about whether or not you're spending the right amount or if you're overspending? How do you think young people should approach that?

One thing is, I think every single person has an obligation to become not an expert, but somewhat sophisticated at two things, which are health and money. Because you cannot have a good life if you are ignorant about health and money. You can have a great life if you don't know anything about chemistry or meteorology. You cannot have a good life if you don't know anything about health and money. A lot of people will be like, oh, I'm not interested in money. I'm not interested in investing. Well, those topics are interested in you and they will catch up. They will catch up to you eventually. Same with health. If you're just eating a terrible diet and smoking and not sleeping and drinking, like that's going to catch up to you eventually. You can't just say, I'm not interested in health. That doesn't work. And so I, I really, I know this is obviously talking my own book, but every single person has an obligation to learn about money. I think it is impossible to have a good life if, if you don't do it. And so when I meet someone like that, that, that, your, your, your friend who you're describing, like, that's the first thing is like, this is not a nice to have. This is, you have really understand this. And I think it would be no different. I think that that friend you just described is the equivalent of someone who might be morbidly obese and alcoholic and stressed out. And they're like, I, I, I don't understand what's wrong with my life. And we're like, well, you need to fix the, the core. There, there's a core problem here that we need to address, and you have an obligation to address it.

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