How a Stay-at-Home Mom Built the $255 Million Drybar Empire (ft. Alli Webb)

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We sold for 255 million. The beginning of it was such a shit show. It was like we'd captured lightning in a bottle. You know, my mom died, my 13 year old son went into rehab, my marriage fell apart. I mean it was just like, wow, I had the perfect life, the perfect hair, the perfect sons, the perfect marriage and it was not real. Let's just like let it all be a little more real and messy and not so perfect. Hi, I'm Ali Webb. I'm the founder of Dry Bar and Messy and welcome to the Burnouts podcast.

Welcome to the Burnouts.

Thanks for having me.

We want to start from the beginning. You had moved to New York City and you wanted to pursue a career in fashion and then you ended up pivoting into beauty. Can you tell us more about that time period and what sparked the change?

Well, I grew up in South Florida where my naturally curly hair was very frizzy and crazy and I think I clocked like the 10,000. You know, Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours makes you an expert. I definitely clocked that in high school and I always had like an affinity for hair. But you know, I also loved fashion and I love what you guys are doing by the way, and have done a little deep dive on your company and I'm like an avid online shopper. So I moved to New York and I actually worked for Cynthia Raleigh and Nicole Miller. The 20 somethings. Listening to this may not know who they are, but they were big designers at that time. And my parents, although they were in like the shmata business and they were entrepreneurs in South Florida and had a clothing line, I thought I Wanted to go do something in fashion. And so I moved to New York with that kind of goal. And then I was working for the Nicole Miller store in soho, which no longer exists. But you know, it was a fun opportunity. My brother, my brother Michael, who's been my business partner in Dry Bar and Beyond and Messi and Beyond, he was working at the corporate office with Nicole. And so, you know, he had the idea to move back to South Florida where we grew up and open Nicole Miller boutiques in South Florida. So we were, I don't know if you guys know Mizner park, but it was, it's a big place in Boca where we grew up and then Miami. So at the ripe old age of like 20, I found myself like running two retail clothing operations. And I was like, I don't know if this is like it for me. And my brother and I were fighting a lot. We were so young and like, didn't know what we were doing. And, and that was really when I decided to go to beauty school. So I was back. I had been in New York for a little while, moved back to South Florida, went to beauty school, became a hairstylist, worked, you know, for a local guy and really fell in love with the industry and. And then would later move back to New York and work for John Sahag. He was like the pioneer of dry cutting and was amazing. And you know, I marched in with my leather pants and I was like, you know, giving him the eyes, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this fucking job. And I did. And, and that was such a cool experience. And then, you know, like a true 20 year old ish. I was like, oh, I had friends working in PR and they were going to cool parties and doing cool stuff. I was like, maybe I'll do that. And so, you know, I just, I did all sorts of things in my early 20s and you know, I didn't start drybroad until I was 35.

I wanna pause there and go back to that you had in that interview. You said, you walk in, you're giving him the eyes. How did you land that job? And what tips do you have for people? I imagine Dry bar, you guys are a huge company now is very hard to get into and to work out. What big interview tips would you give that you said, got you that first kind of foot in the door.

I think I was really confident. I walked in with a lot of energy. I had studied John Zahag, I knew who he was and what he did, and I just was like, I mean, looking back, who knows what I looked like at the time? But I wanted to be like the cool girl who, like, walked in with a lot of confidence of like, I'm going to get this job, you know, And I was very self assured. That's what I like. Like somebody who comes in who knows who they are, who've, you know, done their research. I can't tell you how many interviews I've done over the years at Dry Bar, where people, like, just didn't know basic stuff they should know about me, about the company. And I'm like, what are you doing here? Like, like what? You know, And I was never that. I was never that girl. I was always like, I'm going to come in. And just like last night I was researching you guys because, like, I don't ever show up unprepared for what I'm going to do. I can certainly wing it with the best of them, and I am actually pretty good on my feet. But you have to, like, you have that confidence. And I was like, it was the only place in New York I wanted to work. It was the only hairstylist I wanted to work for. And I was like, I'm going to play this part in my tight leather pants. I knew I was going to get the job, and I did.

And then what did the rest of your career look like from that point until you actually decided to start Dry Bar?

Granted, I was working as like an assistant at Johns Hug. So it wasn't like I walked in and I got a big stylist job, which was, you know, that was a very coveted role. But I loved it and I loved just being in his presence. He was so amazing, and I learned so much from him. And the way that they approach hair is they flat iron your hair, then they cut it, and then somebody like me, an assistant, washes it and blows it out. So it was like high pressure. Johns Hogg was like a blowout bootcamp because I was blow drying. Really famous, well known, like, executive. I mean, you name it. It was really where I feel like I cut my teeth in, like the blowout world because it was a lot of pressure. So I did that for a while, and then I just felt like I don't know if I want to do this anymore. You know, I was like, I was jumping around and trying different things. And. And like I said, I have friends who are working in pr and they were. They. Their lives looked more fun than mine. So I was like, I think I want to do that. And. And so I Jumped around. I met my first ex husband. I've got a lot of them who, you know, we met, fell in love, moved to LA, had babies. And so like when I was 32, I had two kids under two and I was stay at home mom living in LA. My husband at the time was like a creative advertising guy and that's what brought us to la. And I wanted to be a mom so bad and I couldn't believe that I was like able to like be a stay at home mom. And I just thought it was the coolest thing and I loved it. But after a couple years of that I was like, I love my children and I loved having the opportunity. I felt so lucky that I was able to stay home with my kids, but I just was like itching for something to do for myself, you know. And now at this point, I had spent so many years in the hair industry and my best friend had really curly hair and I was always blow out her hair and all my friends hair. But I had like babies like they were still crawling, you know, and I was like, what can I do at like a new mom pace. And you know, that's when the idea for my mobile business which was called Straight at Home, I was like, I live in la, people care about their appearance, you know. And so I decided that Cam, my ex husband made me this one page website called Straight at Home, which I came up with that name and I was very proud of it. And it was like literally one page and I there was like a mommy blog called Peach Head that was like a Google group. I mean this is so many years ago and I posted a thing saying, hey, I'm a stay at home mom, longtime hairstylist. I'm thinking about starting a mobile blowout business where I come over while your baby is sleeping. You know, that was my pitch and, and I was charged 40 bucks. I was like. And literally me and my best friend were like, I don't know, two twenties, that seems easy enough. I mean that was the business plan. And so I posted this and I started getting so many calls and that was such an interesting time because I was living in like a tiny apartment in Santa Monica and I was getting called to like the pal AIDS and Brentwood and I would walk in these houses and I was like, wow, people live like this, you know, and it was such an inspirational thing for me to be like, oh, like this is the other side. You know, it was like Palisades and whatever. And I was, you know, a lot of celebrities. Like I would go to like Jennifer Garner's house. And like, it was just nuts. And I, you know, I came from this like small town in Boca Raton, Florida, and I just was exposed to all of this. And I think it really was like part of my journey of like, oh, I want more out of my life. And like, I want a house like this. But anyways, so I started this business and I, you know, got so busy so fast and I was blow drying women all over town. And really like, it was perfect for me at the time. And I remember feeling like this is all I need. Like, I'm so happy. Like I'm getting out of the house, getting away from my kids for a couple hours. I'm technically not really making any money between driving and gas. And I was like, you know, with my like duffel bag of products, but I was meeting amazing women. And so, you know, fast forward to like not even a year later when I was so busy that I was having to say no more than I was saying yes. Cause I was just like one woman. And you know, and I was like, gosh, maybe instead of me going to them, I should like build a place where they come to me. And that's when I went to my brother, you know, and my brother was like one of the first employees at Yahoo. And he had made some money. And so I was like, hey, I. And I had no money. And I was like, I want to turn my mobile blah business into a brick and mortar. I need help. And I just, you know, I didn't have like any business acumen at that point. And I was just like, I just had the idea. And it's funny because I don't tell this story a lot, but because my mobile business was called Straight at Home. When we were concepting Dry Bar, we were like, maybe we call it Straight Bar. Can you imagine? We probably wouldn't be sitting here. And all my friends were like, no, you can't. I was like, I know it's a.

Bad name, but the names we had for FIA were horrible. Like Renaissance with two S's.

Yeah, I mean, you just like, you're in the ideation stage and. And we were like, no. And. And Dry Bar kind of kept coming up, but Dry Bar, we had made up that name, you know, so that was just felt weird to make up a name. But that's what we did. But anyways, so I went to my brother and said, I've got this high class problem. I've got too many clients, not enough of me. We open a location and we Charge a low enough price where it's this affordable luxury that women everywhere can partake in. I think, like, I think it could work. And this was also 2009, so we were on the, like, tail end of a recession. But I was like, you know, I think this. This could work, you know, but. But a lot of, like, what ifs. The first shopping center that we opened in, in Brentwood was totally dead. And, you know, I remember when we were building that location, my brother and I would walk and he was like, there's nobody here. Like, how is this going to work? And I was like, you know, if we build it, they'll come. That was like. I was like, it's going to be fine. You know, I mean, well, it was all my brother's money basically on the line, so. And we had to, like, personally guarantee that lease. Like, it was. It was crazy. But, you know, we opened that first store and, you know, I'm sure you guys remember Daily Candy. Yeah, I was just talking to somebody about that, and they're like, no idea what Daily Candy is. And I was like, wow, like, Daily Candy was such a part of, like, it was so. It was such the thing. And Daily Candy wrote a thing about us. And, you know, the thing about. Think about what we did is that, you know, blowouts were a thing already. Like, women were getting blowouts, but there just wasn't a space and an experience like dry bar. And that's really what I was excited to create. I was like, I think if it's $35, women will do this really frequently. And that was my hope. And at that time, I mean, that first store in Brentwood had eight chairs, and it was like, I don't know, can we do 35, 40 blowouts a day? Like, that seems like it'd be a viable business. You know, little did I know we were going to be closer to like 80 to 100 a day. The beginning, it was such a shit show. I mean, we were so under staffed, under prepared, like, had no idea what was coming. I mean, it was. It was an amazing problem to have, but it was overwhelming nonetheless. And, you know, we opened that first store in February 2010, and it was like we'd captured lightning in a bottle. And like, you know, the rest is history.

That's so incredible because I think very few people in their founding journeys get to really experience, like, what product market fit feels like, like what having the right product is. And it's. It's described as lightning in a bottle from everyone that, you know, we've discussed it with is just this up into the right of people coming, people wanting this product. When did online booking come into it? Because I know we were talking about like you couldn't go online and book a hair appointment, a nail appointment. Like that seems so simple to us today. Yeah, but when did that become a part of the business?

Well, from the jump. I mean nobody was really using iPhones then. But the booking system that we were using, the, you know the point of sale was. And you could book online but most people would do it like literally on their laptops, which doesn't happen anymore. I was actually listening to you guys on the Skinny Confidential last night where you were saying like you had built your first, the first rendition online and your friends were like, who shops online? We're all on our phones. Which is true, you know, but back then it was quite the opposite. Nobody was shopping on their phones. Cause we were probably using blackberries. But yeah, I mean the platform we used what made online booking possible. And so that was what was a really interesting learning. I mean there's so many interesting learnings in the beginning. But we, like I said we saw these notifications coming in. So in my mind I'm picturing you know, women just sitting on their laptops and I remember saying in interviews like oh, it can be like 11 o' clock at night and you could book an appointment at Drybar. You don't have to, you know, it was automated and actually we thought. We didn't know obviously. We just, it was, there was just so many unanswered questions at that point. Like is it going to be a walk in business or is it going to be a booking? We didn't know. And we put like Poppins welcome on all our collateral on the front window everywhere. But turned out that women were actually booking. So we were, we were booked solid from, from the get go of that first location. And yet women were still walking in and we were like oh, like we were so busy. I mean I had to say no. Which was like they're like, but you said walk ins welcome. But I was like, I know, I want, I would like to do your hair too. I mean we just, we had no idea what to expect. And even with that is like a funny story I haven't told in so long. But you know, just like any business, you have a. And again, cell phones weren't exactly what they were then. And I mean people still have landlines today kind of. But you know, landlines are a big deal and you call a hair salon and you pick up, someone picks up the phone and answers and books your appointment. So I had that. But it was so loud. Between the music, the blow dryers, you know, and the. Everything in there was so loud that when people were calling, first of all, you could barely hear them. Second of all, it was so busy. And I remember, like, there was. I was, you know, I would be trying to check someone in and out, the phone would be ringing. It was literally chaos and bananas. Like, it was nuts. And I was like. And the phone kept ringing, the phone kept ringing. And I was like, we can't answer the fucking phone right now. And so I was like, literally the first week, I was like, stop answering the phone. Let it go to voicemail. Which is crazy. And we'll call everybody back. And it was like at the end of the night, we would listen to those voicemails and then we'd call people back and, you know, the next day to book it was so, I mean, like, who would have thought that's a problem? And so we very quickly found ourselves in the call center business. So we pulled the phones out of the shop, I mean, and, you know, and this would go on, I mean, 150 locations. But the first couple locations, we were like hiring people outside who worked from home to answer the phones at Dry Bar. I mean, it was like, who would have thought of that? Like, I didn't want to be in the call center business, but we had no choice. I mean, that was just like the nature of this very fast paced, like, you know, like kind of hit the ground running business that we ran. And. And we had to, like, figure it out and adjust. And I mean, there's just so many things, crazy things that happened like that in the early days that we didn't. Couldn't have seen coming, you know.

Well, now I know why when I call Dry Bar, they never pick up. Yeah, but it is well.

And we really, we really incentivized people. We would run promotions all the time. It, no matter what we did, always 50% of women called and 50% booked online. And I was like, why? I remember, like, I would see women and they're like, no, I always call. And I'm like, why? It's so easy to book online. Don't call us. You know, but people like. The other thing about it was that, you know, unlike traditional hair salons, had always been the model I was trying to create with Drybart, which I think we did, was like, I want you to come in and see. It doesn't matter who you see, like, they're all going to be great. It'll be different. There'll be personalities you like more than others. But the idea was like, you're gonna, you're gonna sit in anybody's chair and it's gonna be great. And that was hard to get women to accept that. And they, I got, you know, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of feedback on that. And I was like, well, we, the, there wasn't the capability to do it, which is why we really didn't do it. And it, you know, I was like, you can sit with anybody and it'll be great. You know, and usually it was.

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And talk me through. When did you guys decide to expand into products as well?

So after we raised our first tranche of private equity which was about 26 million in year two, I guess the stores were very expensive to build and we we couldn't grow quickly enough and we knew we needed to expand very quickly because we had a lot of copycats on our tail and we needed if we were going to be the leader in the space we had to move fast. So we were, you know, I mean, that's a whole other conversation about, you know, raising money and equity. And I. That I didn't really understand back then. And it was like owning a smaller piece of a bigger pie versus. And that was a hard concept for me because I was like, we're gonna have to give up how much equity? You know, but we really needed to raise money if we were gonna be the leader. And I. And I really wanted that. So our first tranche was with this company called Castanea. They're now stride. And we wanted to raise, you know, like 10 or 15 million. They didn't want to write a check for less than 20 million. And we had landed on 25 million. And I had said, you know, to them, well, Janet Gurwich, who's the founder of Laura Mercier Cosmetics, she was a partner in Castaneya at that point, and she had, you know, had a really amazing career. And I, I talked to her a lot about wanting to build a product line, but really had no idea how to do it. And because she had built Laura Mercier, she really knew how to do it. And she had connections with all these labs. She introduced us to the then founder of Sephora, and I had a very specific idea of what I wanted to do for product. You know, it was like, you know, everything was crafted to make your, you know, to give you the best blowout and make it last as long as humanly possible, because that's what women wanted. And so the product came. But. But everybody was a little, you know, my brother and, you know, the team at Castanea, as great as they were, everybody was very, very focused on the stores. And I being in the stores every day, witnessing the blowouts, I wanted. I knew how important product was because we were using, you know, a mishmash of products from. I think we had like, you know, we had some l' Oreal Moroccan Oil, and, like, it just. It just didn't all work together well. And so I really wanted to start the product line. They were very focused on just the growth of the locations, which I understood, but I really just had, like a vision for that. And, I mean, I think we earmarked like a million dollars, 26 million to start product. But, you know, we launched our product. We did a test in Sephora at 75 doors, you know, about. I guess it was like the third year. And at that point we had about 11, 10 or 11 dry bar locations. So we were. We were getting known, you know, there it was Turning into a love brand. So we launched in 75 doors as a test, and we really made, you know, a dent in Sephora and it did really, really well. And then we would, you know, end up expanding into all the locations. And then we went into Ulta and Nordstrom and the product business became huge, which is very gratifying for me because everybody was like, yeah, product, you know, and I'm like, yeah, product is going to bring us all home, guys. And it did.

That's incredible because we were talking about this. I. I love drybar. I have my subscription. I go twice a month. And I think it's so interesting because that was what initially got me hooked on the product lines because I was like, well, if I can't get my blowout, I might as well do it myself, like with these tools.

That's exactly why I did it.

And what I'm really curious about is the thing that I liked the most about drybar was actually the hot tools. I really liked the hot tools. When did that become part of the equation?

We were kind of white labeling in the beginning. The buttercup, the yellow blow dryer would go through many iterations and then the curling irons. And it was funny because I was kind of this, like, perfect combination of a hairstylist and a really tough customer in one. And I was like, what do I want from both ends of the spectrum? And that's kind of how I built the hot tools. And, you know, we had the linear on Sephora and it was like, you know, and the margins on the hot tools were quite good, you know, and so that was really. The bread.

They were very expensive.

Yeah, they were very expensive. Yeah. But, you know, the wet products were a lot. You know, the margins weren't as good. So we really, we really leaned into the hot tools and they were great. You know, there was.

There was like a brush, like a hot brush, like a blow dry brush. That was what I had gotten. And I hadn't had that as a tool before. And it was perfect because it could do everything for me.

Yeah, it's a great tool.

Yeah. So I'm curious. So was it that you were like, oh, this is a really cumbersome process for people. We should develop a.

Exactly. I mean, the impetus was always like, I knew that women wanted to create what we were creating in drybar. My first book was called the Dry Bar Guide to Good Hair for All, which was very much a tutorial about how to get, you know, how to do your bangs, how to get this kind of look, how to get that kind of look. Like, everything was about that. So I knew that, like, women who didn't have access to a dry bar in their neighborhood or they couldn't get an appointment, they. If I gave them the tools. And then now this book that, like, helps teach them how to do whatever that. That was. That was our. That was our pitch. Like, here are the same products and tools that our stylists are using every day in dry bar. And now you can have them at home, too. And it's. It worked.

How key was getting into Sephora, like, for revenue versus, like, a Nordstrom or other places where you featured it?

Well, Sephora, you know, it's so interesting how the world's changed because, like, influencers were in, like, there wasn't TikTok into Sephora was really the authority on, like, what brand. And like, to get into Sephora is still. To get into Sephora is a big deal. Although now it's more like, you know, the influencers are influencing, like, how women shop. But back then, influencers weren't as big of a thing. And, you know, and so getting into Sephora was a very big deal. And. And I still believe Sephora is like the quintessential prestige brand builders. And it's. It. There's just a certain clout and respect that you have from going into Sephora and going into Nordstrom, which I think that landscape has changed so much too. I mean, obviously, department stores are just not what they were, you know, 15 years ago. And. And then Ulta was really great too, because Ulta, it's as you know, is like prestige means mass. So you could get, like, toothpaste and, you know, dry shampoo. So it's a really interesting, you know, makeup. But it was. It was a process. I mean, it took us several years to get into all of those different locations and. And really build that business. And we hadn't even, like, scratched the surface on International, you know, which was a big part of, like, the sale. It's like. Like this. There's so much Runway here to really build this business.

Well, I also want to understand because your path took the form of you raised this initial capital funding, you continued raising, and then you ended up selling the business. Yeah. What. What did that look like? Like, why. What was the reason you guys decided to. To sell?

We were 10 years in, and at that point, by then, we had raised, like, $75 million. And so we had, you know, private equity that wanted us to sell. And I think I was just like, it became a lot of Rinse and repeat. I mean, I think building the product line was the most exciting part for me at that point, because I was like, there's just a million different types of hair, so there was, like, all these products. And that's kind of like now the world that I'm in that I'm so excited about, because I really loved building the product line.

Yeah. But I think it just became this, like, rinse and repeat. And I was like. And we had hired so many great people that were running the organization was like, I don't think I need to be doing. You know, I wasn't. It was a. It was a great model, and it was like sending my baby to college. I was like, you've got this. You know, And I think I was just ready. And, you know, private equity is ready to be out. And I think we were just. You know, it's interesting to me, you know, seeing people who stay in their businesses for, like, 20, 30 years, and it's admirable and amazing. It just. I'm too, like, shiny objects and wanted what's next? You know, I want. I was ready to move on to something else.

Else.

And what does the process of selling a business look like? Like, is it public? Did you guys share how much you sold it for?

Yeah, it was public. I mean, it's not always public, but it was in our case. And we sold for 255 million to Helen of Troy, which you can look up. And. And for the record, people listening, I did not take home and pocket 255 million. I wish I did, you know, but by the time we sold, we had, you know, we had. We had so many partners and investors that, you know, most of that money went to them. And that's the process of selling, and that's, you know, the. Also the process of growing. And you can decide if you want to grow slow or grow fast. And I've had friends and, you know, other founders who've done it both ways. And, you know, there's pros and cons to both. I mean, we felt like. I was saying earlier that we were really, you know, we had all these copycats in our tails. We wanted to be the leader in the space. So we decided to grow fast, which means. Which meant we needed to raise a lot of capital to do that, and that was our path. I mean, you know, I don't think I would have done it any differently. I wish I had held on to more equity as we grew.

But.

Has that informed how you look at your new business?

It largely does. And we, my, my brother and I are now co CEOs in messy. Like we have a lot of conversations about this and I, you know, I want to be, I'm much more vigilant about how we are raising money and how we are thinking about raising money and making sure that I, you know, hold on to a certain amount of equity. It's really important to me because I.

Remember from the very beginning of this conversation you were saying it was a big learning about owning a small piece of a big pie or a big piece of a small pie. So yeah, that's why I was curious, like, what looks like for you?

I want to own a medium piece of a big pie.

Love.

Yeah. Because you know, no one really sees it. I mean even like when, you know, you saw like it's somebody. After Hailey Bieber's sale and somebody broke down what she actually made, which was still quite a lot of money, you're like, but she didn't make a billion, you know. And like people, I think that it's important that people understand that that's not, it's not how it works, you know, and you need partners and you need help growing and you need a great team and all these things are really important. So you can't have one without the other. Because, you know, to own a, you know, a big piece of a small pie is like, well, okay, that's one way to do it. But you know, it's like also like I am like, I'm like, I want to go and move and I want to do things. So you know, you have to let go of some of that. But it's just where you're comfortable.

And you didn't stop with Dry Bar. You went into like, you know, Beck and Quill with jewelry and then Squeeze with wellness. How did you kind of decide for yourself like when it was time to say yes to something new?

Well, that was, you know, that's where like the identity loss comes in after you sell a big company like Dry Bar, which I sold over five years ago. And it was very like, oh, like who am I now? And I was trying on a lot of different things. And I had started to invest in a lot of company mostly like female founded brands. And I, you know, I felt like I had learned so much, which is really why I wrote my second book, the Messy Truth, which was like every lesson I could remember. And going from like someone who didn't go to college and only like just learned on the job. And I did learn so much. I feel like I Got a big, you know, a master's in business building Dry Bar because I really had to learn so much stuff to like, keep up with what was going on. And so that book, you know, was like a tell all. I was like, I just want to impart everything that I can on, on women or people. What I didn't kind of see coming was the fact that I was. Would incorporate so much of my personal life. And so I felt like as a really successful entrepreneur, I wanted to shed light on the not so pretty side and the not so glamorous side of being an entrepreneur, which I had. You know, my mom died, my. My 13 year old son went into rehab, my marriage fell apart. I mean, it was just like, wow, it was such a juxtaposition because I was on top of the world with Dry Bar and drybar was so successful. But I, my life was kind of falling apart and I just wanted to show that like, that's kind of where we all are and it's messy. And I was going through all of that and then I was not like running Dry Bar anymore. So I was like, who am I now? And so I, I did start investing in other brands and I, you know, we were, you know, ideating a lot of other things. I joined some boards, which I was like, I hate, I hate long phone calls about numbers. I'm like, what am I doing on boards? But, but I was, I had a lot of opportunities at my fingertips. So I was like, I was exploring a lot of different things, you know. And then, you know, Covid happened and I had met my now second ex husband during that time, you know, I was in this, like, I just don't know who I am and trying to figure it out. And it was a real spiritual journey for me personally. And then, you know, also one of the things that I really wasn't paying attention to, but that started to happen because we were in Covid and we weren't going anywhere is I stopped blow drying my hair and I was like, huh. And then my hair started to grow and I started to really, like, I kind of started to fall in love with my natural like wavy hair like you see now. And I was like, this is interesting, huh. You know, and that kind of journey started is really what led me to launch Messy, which we now launched about 10 weeks ago in Sephora. So kind of like got the old playbook out. And you know, I called Sephora, my friends at Sephora and I was like, hey, I have this idea, you know, I'm like, I know I've been in retirement for the last five years, but I want to start a product line that really, you know, gives women permission to embrace the hair that they have and gives them, like, the actual method of a way to do your hair that's not just a blowout. I just kind of lost the taste for the blowout, and I wanted to embrace something else. And I would have never in a million years thought I would, like, you know, show up to an interview with, like, my wavy hair, but I love it now. I mean, it's just so interesting how that changes. And. And so I wanted to build a product line that really supported that. And all of our products have mantras on them like, I am enough and I'm transformed, and, and. And the. You know, so it's an emotional connection, too, because our hair is so emotional. I mean, as soon as you walked in today, someone's like, oh, your hair looks great. I mean, people, women, like, there's a thing with hair. But what's also fascinating that I've learned is, like, women have so much hair back baggage. Part of my mission now, which I never saw coming, was that I want to, you know, give women that, like, permission to embrace what they have and not feel like they have to, like, which I know is. Is a little hypocritical, but, like, this idea of perfection and like, I. That's. That's what it was like. I had the perfect life, the perfect hair, the perfect sons, the perfect marriage, you know, and it was not real. And so I'm going back to this world of, like, let's just like, let it all be a little more real and messy and not so perfect. And that's. That's really how messy came to be. So it's so much more than a product line. You know, it's. To me, it feels like a movement of like, we're really trying to get women to, you know, love what they have and who they are not, you know, not this idea of perfectionism. And so that's.

That.

That's my soapbox.

I love that because it's like you're building the world around the product.

Yes.

And so it's interesting how it's kind of, you know, developed with dry bar. Like, like, even the hairstyles are like different cocktail names, and it sounds like messy. What you're trying to do is, like, pull back the curtain and be like, this is actually me. This is what the future.

And it is. It's like, messy isn't just a product line. It's this Whole, you know, creation and idea of, like, you know, embracing what you have. And I'm not anti blowout. Your hair looks amazing, by the way. I love, you know, I still love a good blowout. But, like, then there's days where you're like, I don't want to blow out my hair. I want to try something new. And I'm trying to get women to embrace that. But like you said, you used to silk revival on your hair this morning, which, yeah, I mean, it's a great after product when you after a blowout, you know, so we. It has heat protection if you're curling. So there. It really does work for everybody. And I'm just trying to, like, get women to, like, dip their toe into, like, trying something new.

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Well, that's really pragmatic, too, because the reality is right for me. I. I do my blowout once a week when we're filming a podcast. And otherwise, it's too much time. It's too cumbersome to blow my hair out. Like, for what? And so you do need an intermediary step where you need product to be able to just maintain your natural hair.

And imagine if you actually liked it. I mean, there is a hole in the marketplace, which I feel like that is what DryBar was. It's like, you can go get a blowout or you're like, well, I don't want to get a blowout today, but what am I going to do with my hair? I'm going to put it up in a bun maybe, but what else is there? And so that was really what I was trying to say. What I've been trying to solve for is. And then there's like the air dry, which is like, okay, that can, can work, but doesn't always. And you kind of don't know exactly what your hair is going to do, which. So I, you know, I kind of came up with this idea of like twisting your hair while it's still damp with the rough dry cream in it. And then it dries. I always say, like, hair dries the way it stays. Because it's like when you are getting a blowout and you're using like a round brush, like you're drying it in the shape you want it to. To stay. When you're twisting the hair, you're. It's drying in the state in the way you want it to stay. So as long as you don't test your twists, which is like, if you watch any of my videos and there's a lot of them now of me explaining this method, I'm like, don't touch your hair. And I know it's hard because, like, it's in these curls. You feel like you don't, like, it doesn't look great yet, but once it dries, it opens up and now it's dry. And now it's set in those twists and essentially those waves. And now you can touch it and fluff it out and do whatever, you know. And it transformed my hair because I had. If I just let my hair dry, curly. It's like, it's curly in some spots, it's straight or the other. I needed to like, unify it and like, conform my hair. But how do I do that? And so that's. And when I was kind of in this process, I was like, there's not really products that are doing what I want it to do. And that was all kind of how it came together.

I was watching one of the ads where the girl was curling.

Twisting.

Yeah, twisting. And then she let it dry. And I literally used to do that. I remember in high school, before my mom let me buy a baby a dry bar flat iron, because she was like, you're going to ruin your hair. You need to make sure you're not always using heat on it. And that was like.

Your mom?

Yeah, my mom. My mom was like, your hair is going to fry off. And she was right. It was, it was very fried in high school, which is why now I'm like, I only will blow dry my hair when I need to. And something I wanted to circle back on, which I thought was really interesting, is that you were building a story and a brand around messy. And that was something that always stuck out to me about Dry Bar. Is the yellow like the brand, the names of the hairstyles, what were kind of some of the transferable learnings, like how did you build that super distinctive brand for DryBar?

Yeah, I mean, what was so interesting about that time? You know, my, my ex husband Cam, who was mentioned was an advertising guy. I remember when we were concept in the idea for Dry Bar and I really, everything I know about branding so much comes from him and what he, what I learned watching him not just build Dry Bar, but all the other brands he built over the years. But when we were concepting the idea for Dry Bar, we looked around at other salons and like, what are they doing? And most of them were black and white and red and smoky and dark. And if you walked into a hair salon, there was like, you know, a red blow dryer, a blue blow dryer, black blow dryer. It was just like, I'm such a, like ocd. Like cleanliness is close to godliness. Like I like things just so and so. I hated that. And so I was like, first of all, I don't want that piece of it. But Cam, when we came up with the, the yellow, because again, that was completely opposite of what hair salons were at that time, you know, it was like they were all dark and smoky. The best way I can think of it, Dry Bar was like sunny and an LA brand. And so it was yellow and bright and happy. And when we worked with our architect, because it all really worked together, our architect was this award winning architect. He went to Harvard and he was super smart and had done like multimillion dollar homes. And a friend of my brother's and he's like, hey, my little sister has this idea for a hair salon. Will you help us? You know, and I remember I would show him pictures of like these like French boudoirs. And then I'd show him like a really modern space. And I, I knew nothing about interior design. I'd never had my own like house like that, but I knew what I liked. And he was able to really bridge that gap of like making this feel like a very like, you know, the white marble and the beautiful millwork and the tufting on the walls and the. Really, the tufting on the walls looked beautiful, but it was also to absorb sound because that we were blowing in so much noise in the blow dryers, and if you take that out of a space, it gets very, very echoey, which I was like, who knew? You know, I mean, so many learnings. But, you know, Josh and Josh, our architect, and Cam worked very closely together, and. And. And I view branding as, like, every little touch point in a business. So it wasn't just the yellow blow dryers, but it was, you know, we had these little yellow trays and the. The stylist wore yellow aprons and everything is white, and. And the cookies at the front, and the customer service and the cleanliness and the music. I mean, you name it. I was like, you know, very particular about every single thing that we did, and I wanted the continuity between every single. Every single location, every single chair that you were. You knew exactly what you were going to get, and you were going to. The stylist was going to use the same tools and the same blow dryer. And so that was branding to me, you know, like, that. It was all of it. It wasn't just the name of our logo and the colors of our brand. And so when we were starting messy, you know, I was looking through the same lens of, like, what's everybody else doing? We're gonna go do the opposite. I wanted, like, the muted. I wanted, like, a very mauve, like, in a very simple name and just be very simple. And I like that. That aesthetic, but it's been done a lot. And so I remember, like, even in, like, those early in the kitchen meetings, as they call them with Sephora, they were like, this is pretty, but it's not going to stand out. And I was like. And I remember. And I remember it, like, real. I realized, like, how much growth I had had as a human, because that would have been very offensive to me and I would have gotten very, like, fuck you guys. I know what I'm doing at that point. But I was like, I think you're right. And I remember, like, going. Being like, I'm gonna. We're gonna take this feedback and go back to the drawing board and worked with our, you know, creative on this, who's amazing. And we were like, it's just. This is not it. You know, we gotta figure out. And so I, you know, and. And that's when we kind of went back and I fell in love with this bottle. They had made this one bottle that was this, like, amber Color with a red like tomato on it. And I was like, I love the combination of red and pink. And then I have such an affinity for stars. And because we're on, I was on the spiritual journey and I wanted the mantra. So I was like, I wanna make this like a really dreamy, like, you know, ethereal kind of brand. And because messy had become, I'd become a little synonymous with messy because of my book. And like I was very, I've been very vulnerable and outspoken about my very personal stuff. Like I just was like, it's messy and then the hair is messy. It just really all came together in this really organic, authentic way. And I think that that is how great builds brands are built. Because you are, you're not just buying a product, you're buying into a brand. It's like, you know, I love the term love brand because like you do fall in love with many aspects of a brand from the color, the way it looks, the way it smells, the way you feel about it, all of it. Like, how does it look in your bathroom? It's like that all really matters. And that's kind of how I think about overall branding.

And I want to walk back to drybar. You guys continue to open both company owned stores and franchise stores. Can you walk me through like the pros and cons of franchising and what you wish you'd known earlier?

You know, it's, it's a good question and I could make an argument for both. I didn't originally want to franchise because I had, you know, I had a very tight grip on what we were doing, as you can imagine. And I was very particular on how we did it. And I, and I, what I will say and what I've learned is like, you know, franchisees are little entrepreneurs in their own right and they have, they're bringing their own money and their, you know, their own, you know, skin into the game and they, they, they want things the way they want them. And I, I always said like, there's a lot of ways to do things right, but there's one way we're going to do it. And not everybody loves that approach, you know, and if you're an entrepreneur and you want to open a blow dry bar, which was like the hot thing at that time, it's like, if you don't want to do it our way, no problem, but then go do it yourself. Like if you want to do it our way, you kind of got to drink the yellow Kool Aid and say like, okay, I'm going To lock arms with you and do this your way. Not to say that we never. We always, like, took feedback and ideas from our franchisees because, you know, they were running their stores, they were running into things. But, you know, to me, a good franchisee would come to us and say, hey, I have this idea for X, Y and Z. What do you guys think about this versus just implementing it? Because there were certainly times where I would walk into a franchise location and they would be doing something crazy.

And I was like, wait, like what?

Well, I won't say what location, but like, we hope she doesn't hear this. We. We were like, in the early days, we were. We were always trying new things, as you do, and we had like, made these really cute T shirts that had like, you know, I think actually, I think it was a picture of me. It was yellow, but everything else is black and white. I think Brandy Melville actually made those for us. It was like early days of Brandy Melville. And I met the owner one day and I was just weird. Anyways, we made these shirts and we were selling them and the way we were displaying them was like, with a little yellow ribbon tied around them at the front desk because we're not a fashion, like, retail location. And again, very particular about how everything looks. I walked into a store and the. The franchisee owner had put them on a rack hanging, like a clothes. Like a hanging rack. And exactly my face. And I was like, yeah, no, this doesn't work. So for a lot of things.

That's so interesting because what I was also really curious about is every entrepreneur's play is hiring, of course. It's just very difficult to find a good team. So how did you go about it in the early days of finding especially. I'm really curious for those initial, like, stylists who were taking your role. How did you go about. Hi.

That was really tough. I mean, I.

It's.

God, I haven't thought about this in so long. But when we were. Before Dry bar was open, we were building it. I would have. Have, you know, I put like, ads and wherever. And I would have stylists come to my house and blow out my hair as their, like, audition process, which a little intimidating, although nobody knew who I was or anything, but. But it was like I was. It was first looking for personality fit, like, are you nice and friendly and warm or, you know, are you like a snooty hairstylist? And then, you know, can you give a good blowout? And. And that was a really tough process. You know, there was like, usually one or the other was good. It was hard to find both, and that was really challenging in those early days. And then once we opened Dry Bar, completely understaffed. Like, I was like, I hired. I did not hire nearly enough people. And, I mean, I would sit in that first chair and do blowouts and run the front desk and look to see what was happening and just kind of everywhere, which I just assumed I'd be, like, the manager and run the place. And then when we were opening in New York, you know, our first location in New York was in Flatiron, and there was nothing like that here. And so I was like, oh, shit, like, we have no training program. And I was, you know, I just didn't know, like, I needed to do that. And so I. You know, I came to New York for, like, a month and, like, set up shop at the Viceroy Hotel. And I had stylists coming into the hotel room, blow drying my hair and everybody's hair. And we're, like, trying to train and took my best stylist from la and we were, like, training stylists, because I was like, this day is very, very, very important to us that we don't mess this up. And, you know, and, I mean, we didn't. It was. But it was a lot of work to get there. And then I realized we needed a training program. I mean, at the end of the day, when we sold Dry bar, we had 150 locations and probably close to 10,000 employees. So the training program was massive. And figuring out how to execute that, which I had no idea, but I learned as we went and, you know, kind of did the best I could to get our stylus.

How did you build those systems and processes? Also, aside, the Flatiron location is the one I always go to. It's right next to our office. Yeah, but because I'm curious, you had a specific way of doing hair. You wanted people to do it that way. And also, generally, in terms of, like, a training manual for people to have those mannerisms that you liked, how did you go about building those systems?

Well, it was, like, one by one, you know, And I realized I needed to hire a team of that, like, people that, like, ultimately reported up to me, and I would, you know, kind of take what was in my brain and, like, put it into, like, a learning, you know, And I would be at so many trainings, and we had this girl Ashley, who would, like, you know, who headed it up, and then she had people under her, and then we would make kind of a top Stylist. Even though we didn't have, like, I didn't believe in hierarchy and I didn't want to have, like, you pay more for this stylist, less for the stylist. But we would have our stylists that became training stylists. We had these training managers in every single shop that was kind of. They were training new stylists that were coming in, they were training existing stylists, and they were watching the floor, you know, and I mean that. There was a lot of iterations of the training program and a lot of manuals and. And I'm like, that's not my strength. I'm not like an operations person. But I knew I needed to hire somebody who was and who could really implement that, like, across the board because it was, you know, so many locations and, and that was like, to me, that was our secret to success. That you could walk into Flatiron or shop in LA or in D.C. or wherever you were, and you would have a great experience and a great blowout. That was the hardest part of the whole thing. And, you know, and I think a lot of times we got it right. Not always, but.

And I know we're.

We're almost at time I want to close with, you know, you've built these, these incredible brand universes, these incredible businesses. If you could go back to yourself in your 20s or just generally for people in their 20s who want to start a business, who are starting their careers, what advice do you wish you had had?

Well, I think the biggest hindrance for me when I was younger was like, the intimidation I felt of, like, all my friends were going to college and everybody kind of knew what they wanted to do and I really didn't. And I think I felt a lot of, like, shame and like, not good enough because I didn't know that. And yet, I mean, I did okay, you know, And I think that when I think back on that time, had I relaxed into, like, it's. And this is probably part of the little woo woo side of me, like, it's all gonna work out, it's all gonna be fine. But we spend so much of our lives worrying about what's going to go wrong and what's not right.

And.

And I think that that was what I did, you know, and even in, even in the dry bar era, like when we were building it, you know, it was like there was just so many problems all the time. It was like whack a molecular every day. I mean, you know, that's like, it's like this fire, this fire, this fire. And you just like. And I remember I was, you know, speaking of burnouts, I was like constantly burning myself out because I was constantly like, you know, just always worried. I think that that's like the biggest advice I would give to my younger self is like, it really doesn't do anything to worry except, like, cause a lot of stress and anxiety. That is, whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and you worrying and spending so much time worrying about it isn't going to serve you. And I feel like I know that now. And I mean, I have to tell myself that still all the time. But it's, it's one of those themes that kind of constantly replace in my head because it just doesn't change anything, you know, and. And I think there's also, I think for me.

Allowing myself to follow the path that felt right for me and not feeling like I had to do what my parents wanted me to do or what my friends were doing and just kind of like follow my own intuition, which I think I did. And I think it's, it's, it's really like the number one piece of advice I always give to, you know, girls who are in their early 20s and they're like, I don't know what I want to do with my life, but they do. And there's this thing that they can't stop thinking about what they really want to be doing, but then they end up doing the thing that they think they should be doing, like, do what you really want to do. You don't have to do it for you, not for everybody else.

You know, that makes sense. Well, we're so excited to see where Messi goes. Congratulations again on the launch and thank you so much.

Yeah, congratulations on your podcast.

Thank you.

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