How Bobbi Brown Went From Vogue Makeup Artist to Building a $160M Brand at 63

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The first year of Bobbi Brown Cosmetics. We thought we would do a million and we did 18. My husband and I sold the company for many years, Bobby Brown was the number one. Because there's more people that want to look like themselves than look artificial. How you look and how you feel are so connected. Everyone wants to know what confidence is. Then it's really simple. Being comfortable with who you are. To be respected. You don't have to be business school educated. You just have to be a combination of hard working, have a vision, understand the way things work and have a lot of common sense.

For anyone who wants to become an entrepreneur, what do you think are the most important traits or lessons that they should learn?

You should.

Hi guys, I'm Bobbi Brown and this is the episode that you're not gonna wanna miss of the burnouts is Burnouts how not to get burnt out or is it okay to be burnt out?

It's kind of a play on words. It's like in your 20s, you're asked to do fucking everything. Like you're asked to do school, relationships, career, figuring yourself out, being like adulting. And so it's like, are you gonna burn out? Are they gonna burn out? Let's see.

And you think it's any easier after your 20, 30, 40, 50 seconds?

No, that's very valuable.

And you've got more things. You've got three kids and grandchildren and.

I can't imagine doing what you do. Having three boys and running an empire is ridiculous. And by the way, you've written what, nine, 10 books now?

Yeah, memorably 10. And people are always surprised that I don't know how to type.

Wait. Yes, that's what I want you to explain. So how do you write your book?

Well, first of all, why don't I know how to type? Because my mom let me drop out of typing in high school. She said, oh, you'll probably never be a secretary. So she was right. But I don't know how to type. So I either get interviewed by a ghostwriter or in the old days, I would just take a pen in the back of a car, on a train, on a plane, and I would write with my hands, and I'd give it to someone to type it up, print it out, and then I'd edit it that way. Now I voice memo it, and then I print it out, same.

Is that how you did your most recent book?

That is how I did my most recent book. I had two different ghostwriters. The first one didn't work out. Second one did way better. Organized everything. I spoke to him on the phone, walking in my park, so I got a lot of steps. Then he wrote out whatever he wrote, and my assistant would print it out, and I'd somehow be in a car or I can't really sit still and do work. I need to be moving. And then I just, with my pen, made corrections and sometimes voice memo things. I don't know. Somehow I figured it out.

Okay, I want to walk way back to your beginning. So you grow up in Chicago. You go to makeup school for theatrical makeup.

After three. It was my third college. Okay, it was my third college.

What were the other two?

I went to University of Wisconsin in Oshkosh, not Madison, to follow a boyfriend. We went to University of Arizona together. We broke up. And then I came home and told my mom I wanted to drop out of school. She said, you can't. And I'm like, but, mom, it's so boring. We didn't have phones or computers then. So you'd be sitting in these lecture halls with thousands of people and, like, listening to some little body, like, talk about something I wasn't interested about.

I would. Yeah, I would explode.

It was awful. It was. So she said, you got to. And I said, but I. I don't. It's boring. She said, forget about what you want to do with your life. Pretend today's your birthday. You could do anything you want. What would you want to do? I could have said, I want to travel to Paris. I want to go to a bakery. I said, I want to play with makeup at the department store. She says, why don't you be a makeup artist? I said, I didn't want to go to beauty school. She said, I'm sure there's a college somewhere. And I found Emerson College in Boston, and they did not have a program, but they let me design my own.

Wow. So what was your major?

Theatrical makeup with a minor in photography. And I took speech classes. And when I went to Emerson, I realized not everyone is book smart and it's okay.

And what did you study there? Like, what did you.

Oh, I mean, what kind of classes? I mean, art history classes. And, you know, luckily I transferred in with all the boring things already done, so I did a couple film classes, and we had to write and produce and direct and edit our own films while I would think about what makeup I wanted to do and write the film around the topic. I mean, that's how a visual person thinks.

You started this kind of philosophy that makeup should enhance your natural beauty. When did that start for you? Is that in college? You came up with kind of this philosophy, or did you have that forever?

Well, when I was a kid, I wanted to be pretty and I would take my mom's makeup and kind of make me look tan and glowy, and I didn't want anyone to know I was wearing makeup. So that was kind of my personal style. And then I tried to do all the makeup that was happening in the industry when I moved to New York, which It was the 80s, and it was really overdone makeup and contoured, and I couldn't get anyone to look good. I wasn't that talented at that. And I started doing crazy things, like picking a foundation, the color of your skin, duh. You know, like blending your blush, like doing all those kind of things. And it just became my style. You know, people would say, wow, they look really pretty. And I started working with people that appreciated my style and didn't want me to make people look artificial. That's how it started.

What's one thing you wish you could tell every girl about makeup?

That it is the best thing in the world. When you're having a bad day and you don't feel good and you're tired, you probably are tired. But you could use makeup to make yourself look and feel better. It's not about how you look, it's about how you feel. But sometimes how you look and how you feel are so connected.

And did you enjoy doing your own makeup?

Yeah, I always have. And I did it in the car and I should have looked in the mirror before we started this, but I didn't. So if I have anything in my teeth or on my face, I don't really look in the mirror a lot. I don't because I find that most people look in the mirror a lot. They just micro. Like, what is the word? Microscope. Like, they just look, oh, no, that's bad, that's bad. You know, I'm always pleasantly surprised when a picture comes out and it's good lighting. I'm like, oh, my neck looks good today. Which you guys don't even realize that's gonna be in your future. One day you're gonna be like, what happened to my neck? But you'll be 60, so don't worry.

That's so fascinating because I feel like makeup now has become so hyper focused as this. You're trying to be someone else or trying to be someone you're not, especially with social media. Like, I'm constantly looking at photos of myself I don't like, or seeing myself on social media thinking, oh, goodness, I could' said that better. I could have done this better. It's so interesting to hear you, who's one of the biggest names in the entire beauty world, to say that you don't look in the mirror that often and that you feel so confident.

Right? I mean, I will yell at my team when I'm like, did you not see that my stomach was sticking out? Did you not see this? And people don't see what I see. It's kind of a blessing and a curse. I could walk into a room and know what needs to be fixed. And I'm just such a visual person. But, you know, early on, we didn't have the social media. We didn't have anything except, you know, dropping off our film at the drugstore and getting the film back. So, you know, we didn't, we didn't have that. We didn't have all that retouching. So it was a. I had to learn to be a good makeup artist. So when the pictures came back, they just looked, you know, even and good.

Do you think Sephora has pushed, like, too far for girls to, like, constantly see these models who don't look like you look when you're 13 years old?

I mean, I think it's gotta be really difficult. I'm glad that I had three boys and not a daughter because I would always feel bad how bad she felt because she would not be tall and skinny. She'd be short like her mom, you know, unless I hired. Unless I married a basketball player. But, you know, I think it's hard. And the lesson I want to teach the younger generation, you know, girls, 20s, 30s, even, 40s is just accept and be happy with who you are. Because in 10 years, you're gonna say, why did I waste my time? Like, I actually looked good. And. Yeah, if you don't like the way you sound in something you said, next time, say it differently. Like, learn from it, and don't let it upset you.

So when does this passion for makeup go into. Okay, I'm actually gonna start a business. This is gonna be a brand.

Well, I graduated college. I moved to New York, and I thought I would just do makeup, you know, on the side and figure out, you know, maybe go do movies. I did one movie, and it was torturously boring having the same thing every day for four months. And I said, I don't want to be in the movies. I said, I'll just see if I could work in fashion. Knew nobody, knew nothing. Opened up the yellow pages and started cold calling. Have you ever seen any yellow pages?

Yeah.

Do they still make them?

I don't know if they do, because.

They'Re good for, like, you know, making me taller on set. I'm not sure if they make them anymore.

They give me a block. Now they literally say, can I get a block?

You're. You're not short. How tall are you?

I'm five two.

Okay, well, I wish I was five two. I'm five foot. Oh. Then we'll have to talk later about how to find pants that fit good for shorter legs right now. Okay. Yeah, I just cut them. So I started building a portfolio and figuring out how to get hired, and it took me seven years to get a Vogue cover. So I kind of made my way through the fashion industry, met the man of my dreams at 30 years old, got engaged, and we decided to move to the suburbs of Montclair, New Jersey, while I. I was still a makeup artist. And then I got pregnant, and I didn't want to do the fashion work anymore because I wanted to be with my family, because I'm a very normal girl from the suburbs of Chicago. So I one day met a chemist, and I told him I always wanted to make a lipstick. He said, oh, what do you want? And I told him, and he made it for me. And then we became partners, and we split the $15. That was kind of the early beginning.

And how do you design the iconic Bobby Brown logo?

I do everything, like, from a visual way, so the Bobby Brown logo. We hired a friend of my husband's who is a graphic designer, and I just wanted something very, you know, at the time, I mean, I was 30 years old. Like, very simple and elegant. And I had, you know, Chanel was my inspiration back then. So when I picked a lipstick case out of basically a catalog, it's the one that looks most like Chanel. And that's how the first, you know, brand was launched.

And the trending style at that time was very much full coverage makeup, more exaggerated, but you really went for this more minimal look. Walk us through. Why did you decide to do that?

Well, it's not like I ever decided. It's just what I did. Like, when I did makeup, I kind of authentically and organically made people look like themselves. And then I realized you couldn't. I couldn't teach someone to do makeup with the crappy makeup that was available in the department stores. Like, everything looked artificial. And I figured out, like, what tones needed to be in things, what textures, but it didn't exist. So when I started working with chemists, I would explain what I wanted, and they would, I'm not a chemist. You know, I got Ds in chemistry, which I'm very proud of today. But I told them how I wanted it, so they made it, and I, you know, sent it back a million times, and then I finally made a foundation. And it actually was the color of your skin. I mean, it's not revolutionary. It's just common sense.

And for you, I'm curious, of course, the brand has blown up. It has become so successful. What do you think were some of the early decisions or moves that you made that helped to popularize it?

The first brand? Yeah, well, the first brand, when I left, it was a billion dollars, so it did quite well. And my husband and I sold the company to Estee Lauder four years. Four to four and a half years after we started it in our early 30s with one two kids. Maybe one to two kids. It was two kids, I think.

And I stayed 22 years as an employee, and most of the years, it was good until it wasn't. But the things I did, I mean, were not, again, strategic things like. Things like I became the beauty editor of the Today show. Once a month, I'd go on and teach makeup. And I wanted to be respected, so I didn't want to sell. I wanted to just be the authority. And I taught a lot of people, and I would go on Oprah, you know, two to four times a year, and, you know, book would become a bestseller products. So all those things just kind of fit together.

How did that relationship with Oprah start? Or how'd you get on her show originally?

Well, I'm from Chicago. She had a show in Chicago. The first time she reached out, I guess to my office and I flew home to be on it. It wasn't national then, it was a local show. And I mean, I had an afro. She had an afro. I'll never forget. I had this big green Adrian Vitadini sweater on.

And.

And I was gonna change. She goes, oh, don't change. You look fantastic. Oh, my God. It was so not flattering, but I wore it on the show and, you know, I just always had a relationship with her. And every time I'd come, I'd bring her something that I knew she loved. Like, she loved pea soup from the Four Seasons. So I went in and I brought her pea soup from the Four Seasons, Frozen. And she was like, I can't believe this. So we just kind of started a.

Relationship and I wanna go back to the cold calling. When you're first starting out, you are just start scratch. Walk us through some of those early moves that you made that were really instrumental.

Hi, I'm Bobbi Brown. I'm a makeup artist and I wanted to know if anyone needs a makeup artist for anything. I want to know if I can come in and talk to you. I want to learn about the business. I called the head of the makeup union, a guy named Ed Callahan. I called him up and I said, hi, it's Bobby Brown. I'm a freelance makeup artist. I want to join the union. Can I come in and talk to you? He said, come on in. You know, Tuesday, one o', clock, I go in there, this tall guy answ the door and says, sit down. And I started. I was so naive. I mean, I still am. And he's like, well, you can't just join the makeup artist. It's not the makeup union. It's not like you fill out a thing. I'm like, well, tell me how it works. He said, well, you're either born into it or you apprentice. And it could take seven to 10 years. He said, but I'll start throwing you some work in the meantime. So I left and I said, okay. And I would get calls to do the local news or Saturday Night Live. When it first launched, I would be an assistant to a makeup artist artists there. And, you know, I never got in the union. But then I did the same thing with modeling agencies. I went in, can I talk to you? And they explained how it works. You need a portfolio and you work with the new board and do your makeup and we'll give you pictures and then, you know, you start Meeting people. So that's how I kind of started. And I was terrible. Like, I wasn't good, but I learned on the job how to be better.

And who did you start out doing makeup for? Were there any famous models?

I mean, early on in my career, you know, I did. Like, you probably won't even know these people anymore, but girls that were always on the COVID of Glamour and Mademoiselle, they used to be actual magazines that we would, like, devour like, that you guys don't even understand. They're now digital magazines. And I got to do makeup on Kim Alexis, who was on every single color, you know, cover. Carol Ault, Christie Brinkley. And, you know, I started building, you know, my people, and they would hire me. And again, it took seven years. I got a Vogue cover.

Yeah, walk us through. What was the Vogue cover like, how did that come about?

You know, you never know if it's a cover. I got a call to go to the Hamptons to shoot Naomi Campbell for a cover. Try for American Vogue with, you know, the editor, Carleen Cerf and Patrick Demarchier. And we had a guest in the morning at like, 4:30 to get the sunrise. And we did. And I did her makeup and took the picture. Didn't know at all if it would make it or not make up or not make it. And it made the COVID It was a September issue and Naomi's first cover.

Wow.

Yeah. It was a big deal to me, for sure. And she wasn't happy, by the way, because she was known for this one thing where she would take a really dark pencil and outline her lip and put a pale white lipstick on her lips. And again, I didn't like it. I didn't think it looked good. And so when I did her makeup, I just put one color, the color of her lips on, and that became my signature. Is making women use lipsticks the color of their lips. Still my favorite look.

I'm sitting here with my pink lips.

It's okay.

No, no, no.

It's good to have other things. But I also. A nude lip is a wonderful thing. And everyone's nude lip is different, by the way. Like, people think Kardashian lipstick is a nude lip. No, that's a pale lip. Nude lip is actually an enhancement of your lip color.

Yeah. How do you find the nude lip color that you have?

Really? You try it on your bottom lip, and if it kind of disappears and blends in, it's the right color. So Jones Road, we have lip pencils that are the color of Your lips. They've been very successful and we'll probably be launching some lipsticks in the fall that are the exact same colors.

How do you give beauty advice to people? Like recommendations for what kind of makeup they should? We.

Well, it kind of depends. You know, if I do a big masterclass and there's 100 people and they ask me, I just say, bye Dusty Rose because I'm so tired and wiped out. But what I do is I train my artists. I train my head artist who then trains the other artists. So when someone comes in one of the Jones Road stores and I did it the same way at the brand in a bigger scale. So it's just I can't, you know, I don't have the focus to tell every single person what color they should wear. But I do. I teach the artist how to do it. Find a foundation the color of your skin. Find a blush the color of your cheeks. By the way, if you're ever somewhere and you're being photographed and you weren't ready, just pinch your cheeks. Look at how good that looks.

Yeah, it does look really good to me. Right?

And that's the color blush you should wear. It can again. Everyone has a different one and you could do the same thing. You could bite your lips if you have no lipstick on. And it's a great color.

Oh my God. I always do that.

Yeah.

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You probably have a lot of of color in your lips.

I don't actually. No. That's why I usually bite them. Cuz when I get cold they get really purple.

Yeah, I like purple lips.

You do?

I do. I like purple lipsticks, like kind of blue tones.

Oh, no. In like fourth grade, I would only wear purple lipstick. And it was like the bane of my mother's existence. She hid all of them for me.

I think it's so important too, because what I always really loved about makeup was that if I wanted myself to look a certain way, like maybe I wanted my cheekbones to be more defined or I wanted my lips to look a little bigger, instead of having to go and get a procedure, I could just make myself look like that with makeup. And I thought it was so fun and enjoyable. Which is why, like, I love what you're doing because and I'm curious, like what you think, what age do you think girls should start doing their makeup? Kind of like a controversial question.

But my question back to you is why do you have to do anything? You have the most beautiful, naturally beautiful face with cheekbones, with a cleft, with full lips. Why do you need to do anything other than look in the mirror, smile and walk away?

You sound like me and her aunt, who both repeat that to her quite a bit, actually.

I mean, I think it's what you said about confidence. To me, there's no better feeling than when I do. I enjoy doing my makeup. I do my makeup and it feels like I've not art, obviously, but it feels like I've done something for myself that really is self care. And I'm accentuating features I already like about myself versus trying to make myself look like a different person. I feel like I'm accentuating what's already there.

But why do you need to contour your cheeks? They're contoured.

I'm accentuating them with bronzer.

There's a place for you and there's a place for you. Your place is probably more like my place. You know, I knew early on I couldn't try to be what I wasn't like. I tried, but it just didn't fit and it didn't feel right. And I tried. I mean, I used to dress a certain way to go to the office when I was in the jam building and when I left, you know, the company just to kind of figure out what my next Thing was, and I could wear sneakers and jeans and a messy bun. I was like, I'm finally back to who I am, who I'm supposed to be.

Let's be clear. I paid to get my makeup done today. Cause I knew you were coming. So I was like, my natural gift of how I do it is not gonna cut it for Bobby Brown. So this is not. This is a work of art made to look like it's casual. You know, that's what I told them.

But I bet without makeup, you look just as good.

I think we've both gotten a lot more attractive without makeup over time. I mean, the thing is, it's funny, because our own journeys with this. Sophia taught me how to do my makeup. We were roommates in college. That's how we started and ended up starting the business together. Do you remember how I used to do my make?

I think that you always did your makeup in a beautiful way.

I think fake eyelashes, like, up top here. Like, you could have hit the top of my forehead if I opened the eyelid.

Well, like you were saying, Phoebe has beautiful natural features, so she didn't need to have the giant fake eyelashes because her eyes already looked really pretty with just a little bit of natural mascara.

But it definitely is. It's interesting to see, like, it's taken time, but now I'd say both of.

Us, the way we dress has gotten.

Better as we've gotten older and more confident, and the makeup has gotten better, too.

And.

Excuse me. How old are you?

22.

And how old are you?

23.

Okay. Don't worry. You're gonna keep getting better. You are. And you're gonna be like, everyone wants to know what confidence is. I know what confidence is. And it's really simple. Being comfortable with who you are. Right.

It's like, did you always have that, or is that something you grow into?

I learned. I learned. I mean, what does an insecure girl from Chicago do? She goes to New York and goes into the fashion business where everyone has one name. Linda, Cindy, Christy, Naomi. And all these fabulous stylists from France. And I didn't have a sophisticated bone in my body, but I was a sponge and kind of watched everyone and saw how they dressed and saw how they acted, and. And I just took me a long time to figure out who it was, who I was. And then I moved to the suburbs, and then I'm like, who the hell am I now? You know, that's so interesting, because I.

Remember, like, breaking into my mom's closet when I was little and like stealing her, you know, Bobbi Brown lipstick. Was it a decision from the beginning to go for that level of like, super classy, expensive tier of makeup? Because you're like, okay, this is, is the kind of lifestyle that I want to emulate or what?

No, I wasn't, I don't look at it as super expensive, fancy makeup. It was, you know, the people that wore the Chanels and the Lauders and the Lancome would only like the Bobbi Brown one if they were people that really wanted to look natural. So I wasn't trying to be as fancy as the other brands. I, you know, it was always a lesser price point. But, you know, we are still competing in the department stores and for many years, Bobby Brown was the number one, you know, line in the department stores because there's more people that want to look like themselves than look artificial.

I'm so curious, your relationship with your husband. You talk about, you know, being 30 years old, falling in love, getting engaged. How does your relationship evolve after you have this incredible success selling the business, working at, you know, Estee Lauder? You probably rise into fame with the makeup line being everywhere. What does that look like for your guys relationship?

Well, we are such partners on everything from the second we met. I never would have had a business if it wasn't for him. He is everything I'm not.

I hope everyone has a Steven. He's my rock. And it's not like he was just there supporting me. He was doing everything with me. And I'm sure he's really proud of me, but I'm sure there was times where he feels like either I'm not paying attention or, you know, I'm just whatever. So, you know, it's a journey and it's, you know, we've worked hard on our relationship. I have. But, you know, we're really lucky. We have a very close family and our values are the same. But he's really the brains behind everything I do because I'm like, okay, that's a good idea. Oh, that's a good idea. But he's like, okay, let's talk about it how when. Okay. He's not always right. I don't always listen to him. Many times I don't. But, you know, it's important for me to get his, like, yeah, that's great. And I usually have to prove myself to him still after all these years.

And what does he do?

He is a businessman. He's a real estate developer by trade and he owns a bunch of businesses. And, you know, he Was. He doesn't have a resume, but if he did, he's the founder of Bobbi Brown Cosmetics. He ran it for. Until we sold it to Lauder. And he's also, you know, the chairman of the board of Jones Road. And right now, I think Jones Road is bigger than Bobby. You know, I don't know that for sure, but it's getting close. So it's a very different kind of business than the first business. And he's involved. He has opened up 10 stores, Jones Road stores. So far. We finally have a very strong head of retail. So he could kind of. He still micromanages it all, but. Yeah. Because that's just who he is.

And walk us through. What is it like being in a relationship where you guys also work together? People ask me and Phoebe this all the time. You guys are friends, but also business partners. What does that look like for you, being married and also being in business? What does that look like?

Well, do you know that the CEO of Jones Road is my second son? And do you know that his wife is my head of brand?

Wow.

And so I can't piss them off or they won't let me see the grandkids.

But so she looks at the.

Face of like, help, Help.

Yeah. You know, honestly, I couldn't have done this 10 years ago, but I learned working with a bunch of very strong corporate guys at the old company how to have discussions. And if you don't agree with what they say, you don't have to walk away in a fight. Just let them think that you're gonna do it, but you don't have to do what they say. And it's the same thing now. I mean, you have to learn how to get along with people. And I'm sure you guys are gonna have your moments, too, and hope you have a relationship that you could talk about it, you know, okay, this is why it's not working. And this is what I need more of. Because I didn't know that early on I had a business partner and she walked all over my things that were mine. And I didn't know enough to say to her, let's stop for a second. Let's define who does what when. I just would hold it in and get aggravated.

That's been a huge thing for us. Is also like having our own lanes of what we both focus on.

Right? Yeah. And I mean, it's just having these talk. I mean, I've worked with Lynette, who's come in with me for a decade at least. And there's Been different parts of our relationship where we're like, okay, what's working, what's not? And it's gotten to a point now that it's like we could just say it to each other. We could just say. And she's like, you're right, I forgot. Or Bobby, it's too much, you gotta take a break. So that's important. But again, you guys are 22 years old, so it takes a while.

And I want to walk back to. So four years into the business, you guys are approached by Estee Lauder to sell for $74 million. What did that process look like? Is that something that you are proud of doing, that you regret doing?

I don't regret it at all. And you know, I don't even regret how tough it was at the end. It's been an incredible journey. And you know, I would was incredibly close to Leonard Lauder. He was my mentor and I got to have lunch with him before he passed. And so I'm really lucky about that. But.

We weren't for sale. And we got a call that Leonard wanted to meet us and buy us. And it wasn't a big corporation back then, so it was very different. And I don't regret any of it. I learned a lot. It was incredible experiences and I get to take all my experiences into what I'm doing now, which is great.

And you signed a 25 year non compete as part of the sale. What did that look like and what was that process like for you?

Well, I'll never forget the day my husband said we've agreed on the terms. You know, there was a buyout period after, I think it was a 25 year buyout period after the sale, meaning, you know, to give me incentive to keep working. And when he said there's a 25 year non compete, I remember counting on my fingers because I'm not good at math, math or science and saying, oh, I'll be 60, I'm not going to work when I'm in my 60s, no big deal. And guess what? When I left Estee lauder, I was 59.9 years old. And so I had four and a half years left in my non compete. So I had to wait four and a half years before I launched the next beauty brand.

And what did you do during that time?

Well, I first bought a charm for my necklace with an ampersand and I put on the back of it the date my non compete would be up. So, so I have that. That was before I got the fuck necklace. But I wore that it's got my children, my grandchildren, and my ampersand. And then I spent two days not knowing what I was going to do. And then I did a bunch of projects. I did my husband and I opened a hotel in Montclair called the George. We opened a photo and TV studio. I did a wellness brand. I did a Lord and Taylor. I did a just Bobby shop. So I just kept doing things until the Jones Road.

You are too good at the game. They had to get her out for 25 years is crazy. And then the fact that you go back and now have a company that's bigger, if not just as big as Bobby Brown before is crazy to me. So I want to talk about the iconic moment of yours that stood out to me. So the Jones Road. What? The foundation that went totally viral in 2022 with Meredith Duxbury when she posted a negative review using her signature technique where she applied 10 times the normal amount of the. You then responded with your own video of applying the foundation the same way, and you got 4.8 million views on TikTok.

Right. Well, I'll tell you what happened. So, you know, we launched the what? The foundation, which of course I named WTF What? The foundation after we pulled it back, because when we tried to ship it, it didn't ship well. We had to reorganize it. So we finally launched. And I remember I was going in the city for something and my son called me, says, mom, I have bad news. I said, what? He said, there's a influencer on TikTok who has been trash the foundation and everyone is agreeing with her. It's a nightmare. And I'm like, hold on. And I looked at it and he said, come in. We need to re educate people how to use it. And we did. I went back in and I would do a whole bunch of TikToks. You know, if you are someone that likes a natural no makeup makeup, you'll love this. If you're someone that likes a heavy. You know, I think I said it nicely. I didn't say cakey, but a heavy full coverage. You're not going to like this. And this is how much you use. And I was so tired at this point. At the very. He said, all right, we're done. And I said, I have one more. And I literally took the jars and I put my hands in it. And I said, as a makeup artist, I love to learn new things. So I'm gonna try this technique I just learned and I put it on my face and I started Cracking up. And I said, stop. And I left. And I called my youngest son and I told him about it and he says, mom, you cannot go up against a TikTok star. And so I called Cody, who was then the head of marketing and I said, cody, you can't put. He said, too late, mom, train has left the station. And it went viral and it was incredible to watch because everyone, the comments were yay, Bobby Brown clapped back. And I didn't know what a clap back was, but now I do. And it was like, yeah, that's not how you do it. And then all these newspapers all over the world was writing this story because it was, you know, a lot of these influencer ruined people's launches and businesses. And so it was a big viral moment. Fast forward to years later, to many years later. I was in London at a friend's restaurant and he said, I'm giving you a heads up, there's an influencer here that you might know. We're in London. And it was Meredith. So I got up and I walked over to her and I just said, hi, I'm Bobby. And she just was so sweet and nice. We didn't mention anything about the foundation gate, but it was a nice moment to just go over and say hi.

And I want to know what has it been like launching a brand in a completely different decade? Say that there's lessons that you're still learning from your previous brand or have you had to rewrite a new playbook?

Well, I take all the knowledge of what I learned and I know very quickly what I need to do and more importantly what I don't need to do because, you know, I'm very scrappy minded. So I do things that are simple and make sense and I don't like to waste time or money on things that don't make sense. And everything has changed. And probably the best thing about me is I don't live in the past. I think about what's happening now and going forward. I don't think I think like an old person, I think I think like a young person. And that's probably a big secret of it. And things are changing. I mean, things that worked five years ago when we launched Jones Road aren't working now. Well, first of all, TikTok isn't working the way it did three years ago. So, you know, we've had a shift on a lot of things and you know, our audience, you know, the growth of our audience. We're women in 40 to 60 and we are now shifted to really Bring in more millennials. You guys are millennials, or are you Gen Z? Gen Z, yeah. So we're not targeting Gen Z, but there's no reason why you guys aren't the right people for the brand. So that has shifted. But I just think I don't see age. So it doesn't matter if you're 20 or if you're 65 or 70. I think you still want to look like a better version of yourself.

1. Another thing I wanted to dive in on is the idea of a personal brand. So you have over a million followers across Instagram and TikTok. You've leaned very heavily into social media. How has that looked like for you? And what was your decision behind building kind of a personal brand on the Internet?

It's really fun. I mean, it's weird. It's not work to me, and it's not strategic. And I don't have a calendar of what should launch. I'm trying to get the two young book girls who are brilliant doing social to talk to my brilliant social, social girl. Everyone's around the same age, 23, by the way, to kind of coordinate who goes up when. Because sometimes, like three things go up at once because everyone is using that, you know, 900 plus thousand, whatever. What am I now? And, you know, I repost friends things and I put things up. You know, I. I don't know. I just don't have a strategy. And so I think it's become very authentic of who I am.

Because you were telling us you. You spend an hour in the mornings responding to your DMs.

I do. I do. And I'm, you know, I'm working with a nutritionist who's helping me with my lifestyle things. And I said to her, I said, I get up in the morning, I drink an AG1 downstairs, I make a double espresso AG1.

I'm sorry?

Oh, AG1 greens. It's got all the vitamins in there, and it alkalizes your system. I'm also a health nut. It alkalizes your system. So when you drink coffee, you don't get too acidic. So I do that first. And then I get back in bed, which is a stupid thing to do with my espresso and my iPad. I read the New York Post. I sometimes read the Times, but that's mostly on the weekend. And then I can't help it, but I start looking on social media and see who I responded to last night that maybe got back to me. So it's kind of social. It's Kind of creative and it's kind of work and I do it. And on the way home in the car today, I'll have to do it again because that's where I communicate with people.

That's how we connected. Was over DMs.

Yeah, same thing. I saw something you did. I said, that's so cool. I went up, looked at your new business, saw who you were, and I'm like, oh my God, she's so cute. I think she's a perfect Jones Road girl. And I said, I'd love to send you makeup. And you're like, okay, cool. And I was like, wow. She responded, that's so great. Cause not everyone responds.

So do you still do a lot of cold DMing?

Oh yeah. I mean I always, I mean I used to do it on like every fucking day. And. Yes. And by the way, I also have like, I see things that inspire me. I'll send things to my creative director who by the way, she's now 27, so she's old. I send it to Aaron, I'll send it to my son and my daughter in law to Lynette, depending what it is. And sometimes I'll just say, ask me because I can't tell them why I sent it. And sometimes I'll tell people to order something. Like my product development girls, order this. I want to see what it looks like.

Yeah, I love that.

When can we have a product development budget, start ordering some fashion pieces?

I know it sounds like you're on.

Your way, hopefully a couple years down the line, 100%. But I'm curious, like for you now, when you, when you launch Jones Road, how did you think about like marketing budget, like allocating towards TikTok, towards other channels. How did you learn? Like, okay, in this day and age, this is how we're going to launch this, this beauty brand?

Well, we launched on Instagram. I, we did not have a budget for anything. We were self funded. My husband, you know, and I self funded it and we paid ourself back with Instagram a month. Yeah, I mean, so because it did, you know, the first year we thought we would do a million and we did 18, you know, and it just kind of kept growing, you know, doubling and growing from there. And you know, we just, you don't, doesn't cost anything except a person doing it on Instagram. We didn't have an age. We don't have agencies. We just do it ourselves, you know? Meaning, like I hire young people to do things and I, you know, I'm kind of like the leader of it all right, that's not good. Can you edit that? Can you do it that it's really fun.

And what's your guys strategy now? Do you are you also in retailers? Is it mostly through online business?

We're 90% D2C and 10% is our own freestanding stores. I'm only in one retail. We are only in one retail account and that's Liberty in London. So we've launched 10 stores, we're about to launch two more by September. So and it's and every single store is profitable and it's a great place for people to come in and see Jones Road. And everyone that goes in there, especially the first time comes out with all the colors that are right for them on a piece of paper. So when they go home and they ever want to order anything, they have it.

And you said that the business is now doing better than Bobby Brown.

I don't know for sure. It was just, it's hearsay. So I don't know.

And can you give us some insight into how the business is doing now?

This October is five years. So our five year anniversary, we it's going to be I think an epic end of the year because we have my memoir coming out. We have.

A range of lipsticks coming out. That is how I started the first company. So it's very full circle. I think we are the best season ever and a couple more stores. I think it's going to be an amazing end of the year. I mean the business has done pretty fucking amazing and you know, we're not doing the double growth that we started with but it's a very healthy number and we're very profitable and we don't owe anyone money and really the only people that we have to like answer to is ourselves.

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And how did the growth look like year over year? Was there a moment where you felt like it clicked or what did that look like?

Well, the first year it clicked, I mean, you know, when I was hoping for a million dollars and we did 18 and you know, we started the business with $2 million.

So, you know, it's. And we don't waste. We don't waste money. You know, I don't.

We don't waste money. We print it.

Yeah, no, I don't know what my son. And honestly, I don't know what the cmo, you know, who was the head of growth and then the CMO and now the CEO, what he spends on ads. You know, we definitely spend good money on ads. Digital ads, ads. So every once in a while we have a magazine ad or a newspaper ad, and it's really funny. Our creative director will like Google how to do it. It's really funny. Right? We've done it for Danny SEO magazine for Masterclass in the New York Times. And I have those taped up on my walls.

And what does the best for you guys is it Instagram? TikTok, like, when you think about kind.

Of owned marketing, you know, I think it's not TikTok right now. You know, I think Instagram brings people in the stores like crazy. Digital ads, you know, bring people. I recognizable now than I've ever been in my whole life. And I mean, I was on the Today show for 14 years. I've been on Oprah, I've been in Vogue magazine. But now.

You guys probably don't get as many of the ads, but people that watch cable tv, it's always on. So people of a certain age, wherever I go, they always come up to me. So now we're.

Unfortunately, once you start talking about me, you're gonna get hit and you're gonna see me putting makeup.

I've seen it already and I want to keep seeing more. But I want to talk about also, you have your memoir still Bobby, coming out this September. What made you decide to write a memoir?

Well, I Had no intention of writing a memoir. I wasn't, you know, interested. I wanted to do another makeup book. I wanted to do a young woman's makeup book, a teenage makeup book. I've had two. And I thought it was time to redo it. But through someone I know, an agent came all the way out to Montclair, New Jersey, and said, I want to do your memoir. I said, I'm not writing a memoir. I said, I'm too young. And she said, no, it doesn't have to be a memoir. It could be your story. You have a lot to teach, and I want you to teach me and everyone else of different ages all these things. And I started doing it. And when I think about how I've done everything, I don't usually think about it, but when I do think about it, I think about my grandparents, my papa Sam that came over from Russia, how I was raised, my parents divorce, my dad's work, my mom's creativity, her issues she had. And so it became a memoir. And then talking about all the things I did, from building a portfolio to starting a brand, to starting another brand. There's all those things that you're like, oh, it's like rivers. Oh, yeah, that's where I came from. And I know I'm not done. And I know I've become a. A good example to people of a certain age that you don't have to stop just because you're 50 or 40 or 60 or 80.

And I know you mentioned during that period of your non compete that you worked on, you said some little projects, but I'd say they're anything but little. You and your husband transformed the once forgotten Georgian Inn in New Jersey into a boutique hotel. What drew you to that project?

I had nothing else to do. I mean, seriously, it was literally the day I left the brand. And he came in and he said, I bought this building. I'm either gonna make it condos or I thought it'd be really fun for us to make a hotel. First time I ever said it, I'm like, okay. And so we dove in and, you know, I asked. I needed a team and an office. So I went to the Apple store. I hired a girl that was helping me. That was brilliant as my assistant. And my husband gave me, you know, basically it was a storage closet as my first office, and we filled it with five people sitting around a table. Lynette was there, and eventually we got a real office. So I just. It was like. Sounded interesting and fun. I love doing things I don't know how to do. And I love figuring it out.

What do you think that that taught you about reinvention in business?

You know, it just honestly has taught me that you don't have to be highly educated, business school educated. You just have to be combination of hard working, have a vision, kind of understand the way things work and have a lot of common sense. And by the way, not be afraid of hard work. Everyone's like, it's so hard. It's so hard. I'm like, tell me what's not hard?

Yeah. For anyone who wants to become an entrepreneur, what do you think are the most important traits or lessons that they should learn?

You should get a job first. First you should understand what it means to commute. You should understand what it means to arrive at 9 o' clock and, you know, work as late as someone tells you to. Because a lot of young people that start businesses, they don't understand those things. And I think it's really important.

And was that something that you learned when you were early in your career?

No. No. Because I was a freelance makeup artist, so I never had a real job until I became part of Estee Lauder. Then I had a real job. So, you know, I was being a freelance makeup artist. You know, there's weeks you don't work. But I still had to take those weeks and work on getting work. So I just. That was my work. This is my promotion work. I need to put appointments on my calendar so I have something to do and hopefully someone will hire me.

And now that you're in a position where you're hiring people, what are some of the most important things that you look for?

I look for positive energy. I look for people that are nice and are creative and hardworking. But honestly, you can't be a dick and work for me. You gotta be nice.

A kind of offbeat question, but I'm curious. When it comes to success, what do you think is more important? Luck or hard work?

I think you need both. I mean, so many people work so hard and things just don't come together. And, you know, people that it's all lucky, and if they don't work hard, it doesn't last very long. So you kind of need everything. And is it luck that has made me successful or is it just.

I got lucky? I don't know. It's like the word luck is interesting because it's like, it's not just lucky. There's also hard work and there's, you know, there's brain power and, you know.

Is there Any advice you'd give to your younger self?

I would definitely give my younger self three pieces of advice. I would say, first of all, learn how to chill, which I still haven't learned. I'm working on it. I would second say do more weights than cardio. 100%.

Why?

Because when you get older, you need muscle on your body to feel good in your body and look good. It helps with metabolism, everything. And it was all about aerobics when I was a kid. And the third thing I would say is, you're going to be on focused, fine. It's going to work out. And don't worry if it doesn't work out, you'll do something else. Not everything works out.

Yeah, because I. I also want to dive into. Of course, starting a brand when you're 63 can seem super daunting. Why do you think that you decided to do that instead of retiring or relaxing?

It is the worst word. Retiring. Needs to leave. What does retiring mean? Like, you know, you stopped working, but that doesn't like people that retire. They just decided to shift. I don't, you know, they all find something. I don't have anything. I like doing things that are interesting to me. I like my brain stimulated. I like the creative process. Knitting and pickleball and golf. And my friends are playing cards. Cards and mahjong. I love you people. If you're listening to me, you're probably not listening to this podcast. My friends, your daughters might be, but. Or your nieces, but I just don't find it interesting. You know, I just find. I like to be stimulated. I like to. You know, I became the editor in chief of Yahoo. Beauty when I didn't know how to type and I knew nothing because. Why not? That sounded so interesting because I didn't know anything. And so I learned a lot.

How did you get that job?

I literally got a call from. It was when Marissa Meyer was running it, and I got a call from someone that reported to her. Kwee, come see you. It was her and this guy named Sandy who was their head of people. And from the second they walked in the door, Sandy and I became best friends. And I remember looking at him, I'm like, are you Jewish or gay? And he said, I'm both. And I'm married to a black man. And I'm like, I love you. And we've been friends ever since.

I'm both.

I love that so much. I feel like so many people struggle with, like, having the perfect life. And you shared on your substack, what do you call it wa wa sabi.

I love that word.

What does that mean to you?

Because I like things that are visually perfect. Because I've spent my life at photo shoots, like, watching stylists kind of judge everything, and I do it in my house. And then every once in a while, you realize some the biggest messes are the most beautiful. Like, piles of kids shoes. You should drive me crazy. And then they all left the house, and my house was clean. My, you know, everything looked great, but they were great gone. And when they came home with their messy shoes, with their friends, it was beautiful to me. I looked at it differently. So, you know, it's. I mean, I still struggle with not being perfect, but you learn to let go of certain things.

How do you think people in, like, their 20s and 30s can incorporate this into, like, their everyday life?

Well, it's funny. Some people are born and they don't care about piles and mess. And other people, like, are you organized? You need everything clear. You need your desk clear.

I'm messy.

You're messy.

How about you?

Super messy.

Okay, well, then you're both good together. I need. I need clarity. I make my assistants clean out my closets, and I actually hired an organizer to come in and even at work because, you know, like, things are shoved in and, you know, my creative department has more like, you know, cameras and things and mics. I need it organized. I want to be able to see what I need. It's also an efficiency thing with me. I want to be able to go in and see where everything is. So, you know, we give away a lot of makeup. If I can't open up a cabinet and see where is what, then it just doesn't work.

Yeah, I definitely would say that for business, being organized and efficient is so, so important. And I would definitely say that's something we've both gotten a lot better at since we started in college is realizing things need systems and processes.

I love systems and processes. And I'm someone who. There's nothing normal and systematic about me, but I am. It's very complicated.

What would be your biggest interview tips.

For someone to be on of top time? And if you are late, call or text and say it and do your homework. I mean, I've interviewed people that have never gone into a Jones Road store and they were interviewing to work on the retail team.

It's like, shocking to me. And people I've interviewed for assistance that come in with a makeup that does not look like Jones Road, and it's like, do your research and Maybe it's not the right fit for you either, by the way. So. And, you know, and I don't really, like. I don't interview like other people do. I kind of just like asking questions about them that you're probably not allowed to ask. But, like, are you married? Where are you from? What did your father do? Like, I want to know who the person is because everyone on their resume looks like they know what they're doing. And I could try train. I just want the right kind of person that I could have a comfortable relationship with.

How do those people often end up being like, what's your takeaway when you know you've had a good interview?

Well, sometimes people think they had a good interview because I sometimes really like someone a lot. And when they leave, three or four other people that interviewed them didn't like them. And I'm like, okay, who's gonna tell her? Because she probably thought I was gonna hire her. Yeah, but.

Which I think my team should tell me before I interview them. Like.

You know, make it quick. Don't be that nice.

Someone should definitely slide you a note right beforehand, right before, like, scratch an eyebrow or something, letting you know.

Yeah. So you knew that. I knew that I liked this girl, whoever this last person was, because I said to my assistant, show them the creative studio down the block. Cause I thought, oh, she might be a keeper. And no one liked her.

What are some. Wait, what are some of the hardest things that you feel like you have to deal with as an entrepreneur? Firing things like that.

Well, luckily, I don't have to fire. We have, you know, an HR person who's 30, by the way. I mean, I could use an older person in my office, but, you know, someone with more experience at some point. But the hardest things, you know, I think. I don't know. What are some. The hard things, I guess, are I work with a lot of people that are phenomenal at what they do. They don't have as much experience in other companies, and so they haven't all learned how to timeline the right way, how to process, how to, like, think backwards. But, you know, I've tried to teach a lot of people, and a lot of people, we've figured it out. So, you know, if someone's worth it, I will train them and we'll work together.

How do you timeline backwards?

The right.

Just.

It's common sense. You know, when something has to be due and then you know what has to be done, and you figure out what the timelines are. Okay. It's going to Take us six months to get that. How are we going to launch that in February and before that, like, how are we going to do this? Like, guys, what about getting the pictures for the long lead things like there's all that stuff and so we're working towards that.

And would you rather hire younger, inexperienced people and then train them or really experienced rigid people?

Oh, I would rather hire, rather have someone in between, but, but I love someone who is like wide eyed and excited and wanting to do something and believes in it. And I like, I'm happy to train the right people, but I could use a few people in a few positions that have a little bit more experience. However, I have hired a few people that had more corporate experience and it was like didn't work.

Well, I'm curious because of course you worked at Estee Lauder, which is such a big, a big corporation. Were there any things you took away from there where you thought, okay, that did not work for me. I prefer doing this scrappier.

How about having hiring consultants to prepare the meetings? The big meetings that cost enormous amount of money, that take so much time and by the time you have these meetings, you know, you've wasted so many hours and it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. So I don't, we don't do things like that and we don't have those kind of meetings.

Do you guys have an all hands?

We do, we do. I open the all hands and I try not to zone out or I always interrupt something. I bring someone in. I brought the lipstick lesbians in the middle of an all hands.

You brought the what? The lipstick lesbians.

They're these two girls, they're married and they are like super influencers in the makeup world. They're called lip. That's the artist handle. Lipstick lesbians. They're amazing. And all the girls that work for me know who they are. They follow them. And in the middle of an all hands, I brought them in.

I love it.

Wait, how do you connect with those influencers? Do you DM people?

I was speaking at the makeup show in one another makeup artist. So you've got to meet the lipstick lesbians. And they just moved to our town so we connected and they came in and you know, they become friends.

You bring the lipstick lesbians in the middle of an all hands. Like that's like a skip from the office. You do realize, oh, our office is like the office.

I invite you to Montclair, New Jersey and stuff. See exactly where we are and how we live our Life and how few people work in the office. It's really cool.

How many people are in the office?

40, maybe three days a week. But one of the days is usually, you know, 10 less people. And we buy everyone lunch every day when they're there. We have a manicurist, Rosa, who does people's nails. People bring their dogs. You know, we just have the greatest people that work there. I mean, and I, you know, I cannot wait to get home when I'm away. Yeah, they're like my people. I just. I can't describe it.

That's incredible. I mean, you guys are doing so phenomenally well. To have this kind of culture where you really love the people who work for you is amazing.

I love the people. And it's, you know, a very chill place. And people are, you know, they just really care. You know, every once in a while, we do hip hop classes. I bring someone in. I just have a new app, a hip hop app. I'm gonna start doing it with a. Everyone. So they have book clubs. They have all. I'm not on slack. I hate slack. They're all. They have, like, whole lives on slack. Book clubs and all sorts of things. I can't. It's one more. Yeah, well, that. Yes, I, I, I. You. I need a private lesson on fia, because I joined right away and, you know, like, do you find Hermes bags?

You can find anything.

I cannot find a black bucket bag, size 30. And I've called the head of PR, he's like, no, can't find it. It's gotta be there.

We'll find it for you. We'll find it on Fiat.

We'll find the. Challenge accepted.

Yeah. Cause I want it for my book tour. It's like, it fits my iPad perfectly.

Any last words of advice? Whether it's a makeup tip or for an entrepreneur or someone going into the beauty industry, what advice would you give to women in their 20s and 30s?

Well, first of all, don't worry. You know, you're gonna figure things out. Like, that's the easiest thing to say. But also, don't be afraid to ask. Like, so many young women are afraid to ask. You know, help me. Is this right? And just know that if something you're doing isn't working, do something else.

I love that. Yeah. One of the other questions we didn't ask, that I wanted to ask you was about self care. Obviously, I would say that's become kind of a buzz word. But for young women who do want to invest in their appearance to feel and look good, what do you think are the most important things to take care of?

I think there's nothing more important than exercise for anyone of any age. You know, I don't care if it's walking. I don't care if it's. If it's stretching, yoga, weights. To incorporate a healthy lifestyle with good food and good habits and paying attention to yourself when you are tired and exhausted and pushing yourself to just take a break, put your pajamas on and watch some dumb tv, get in bed, take a bath.

So true. Yeah. I mean, no amount of makeup covers.

When you're exhausted, except if you're me. Really, I'm pretty good at.

You should have seen the girls when they'd come in the 90s from, you know, whatever they did the night before. And we had to, like, get them ready. Oh, yeah, I got this.

Really?

Oh, my God. Pass her over this way.

Wellness was not a thing. I was doing it when no one was. People thought I was. I used to bring my food to work and people are like, what are you doing? I had, like, carrots in a bag and some protein in a bag, and they're just.

Yeah, you said you're a health nut.

I went back to school and got my degree as a health coach from Institute of Integrative Nutrition. So I don't have any clients, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about food and how important.

Best pieces of advice on health?

Well, eat food that doesn't have ingredients that you don't know. Try to eat as much as possible of food that is good for your. Not just your brain, your body, but. But your looks. You know, it's real food, you know, and. Yeah, and if. And eat less of the bad stuff. And don't eat. Don't eat processed stuff. Like, you know, don't eat processed. Not good for you.

Simple. I love it.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, I think that was everything. Bobby Brown, thank you so much for the burnouts.

Thank you, guys. You're awesome.

Thank you.

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