How Sara Blakely went from fax machine sales to Forbes billionaire

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It's been about a week since we launched via and honestly, it still does not feel real.

It's been equal parts overwhelming and also really thrilling to be able to build with my best friend. But we are in dire need of advice. So having Sarah on couldn't be more incredible. Especially now after, you know, years of us talking about you and what you did with Spanx from our dorm room.

Yeah. Sarah Blickley, the icon, founder of Spanx and now the founder of Sneaks, is here to give the Burnouts the scoop on her best advice.

Let's do it.

Sarah Blakely is also one of our first investors. We reached out to her before we had a product, before we had anything. And your advice on listening to ourselves, focusing on mobile. We should have listened to you a long time ago, but we couldn't be more thankful to have you on. So Sarah Blakely, welcome to the Burnouts.

Thank you. I'm excited.

I think it's really interesting. I was reading that you have a lot of IP around the stuff that you've, you know, built at Spanx and now it Sneaks. How do you think of like kind of mechanical engineering behind a product as well? And what is that for someone who's never worked in like clothing development stuff? Like what does that even look like?

It looks like a 29 year old girl standing in a factory in Asheboro, North Carolina with only men who, who have real southern accents saying but it doesn't feel right right here. What does that mean? It's like squeezing me right here. Like I literally used how I felt to develop every aspect of the garments. Over time. I learned the language. You know, I'd be like, you got to splice in a You know, three by one, Lycra yarn. But I did not have any experience in what I was doing. I used how, how I felt and the results I wanted to achieve. I always like to say to people, if you don't know how something's supposed to be done, that can be your greatest asset. And if you let it. Because a lot of people who don't know how it's supposed to be done will let the self doubt become too strong. Like how could I be the one with the answer? I'm not the expert. I didn't go to school for this. And so they don't really trust or pursue that. But it's a gift because if you don't know how it's supposed to be done, you're gonna ensure you do it different. Right? Like the only true innovation ever happens when you do it different than everybody else. I found not knowing and not having any degrees in any of the stuff I was doing actually really helped me. But I had done a lot of work on my mindset as this young girl from Clearwater Beach, Florida. You know, that gave me the courage to stand in a room with a bunch of experts that were men that were like 20 years older than me and gently challenge and what is that mindset work?

Like, what can we do?

I have been doing mindset work since I'm 16 years old. So I always tell people like, I had no idea what I wanted to do all through my 20s. Like none. Like I sold fax machines door to door for seven years, ladies. I mean, I got kicked out of every other building. People ripped up my business card in my face once a week. But the one thing that I did do was I invested in my mindset. So I, at the time, my dad gave me Dr. Wayne Dyer and they were back then cassette tapes, like, I'm really dating myself. Okay. Anyway, and he was a psychologist that wrote several books on basically a growth mindset. So here I am in the 80s, I'm at Clearwater High and I put in these cassette tapes. And the first time anyone had ever talked to me about how to think versus what to think. So manifesting what you want, visualization, law of attraction, not fearing failure, not caring what other people think about you or maybe your ideas. Which as a 16 year old girl at Clearwater High, like that's all we cared about, right? As 16 year olds is what is everyone thinking about me. Nobody wanted to be stuck in my car after a party, guys. Okay?

I would, I might want to be Phoebe.

Maybe we would have been Good friends at Clearwater High. But, like, the majority was like, what is going on? They would get in my car. Everyone else was listening to Bon Jovi and Madonna, and they get in my car, and it'd be like, what do you really want with your life? And they'd be like, sarah, I always had them. They were all over the floor of my car, always. And I'd be putting them in, and I'd be like, no, no, no, guys, this is like, this is amazing. This is gonna change our lives. I even took it to my principal at Clearwater High and asked him if we could teach mindset as a elective. And he laughed. He was like, sarah, I don't know. I think you need to, like, maybe go to a therapist for whatever you're dealing with. But I was like, no, seriously, this is really gonna be life changing. And maybe instead of, like, home EC or one of these could be teaching mindset. And then, you know, Fast forward like 10 years, 15 years after I graduate from Clearwater High, I was on the COVID of Forbes. And all my friends from Clearwater High, they texted me, and all they wrote was, damn, should have listened to that shit.

So I literally. I had no idea. I was totally lost. 20 something, right? From 21 to basically 27. I'm selling fax machines door to door. No idea. I knew I was good in sales. One day after work, I pulled off the side of the road and. And I was like, I'm in the wrong movie. Called the director, called the producer. Cut this is not my life. And I went home that night. I had, like, been kicked out of another office building. And I was like, what am I doing? And I wrote down my strengths, and the only real thing in my strength column that I knew was sales. And I was like, okay, I'm good at sales. Why do I like sales? I asked myself that really important additional question. Because if I just said, I'm good at sales and I like sales, I. I probably would have went and got another sales job. But instead I said, sarah, why? And the why behind it was, I really liked giving something or selling something to somebody that improved their life or made their job easier or helped them. And so I wrote in my journal that night, I'm gonna invent something that I can sell to millions of people that will make them feel good. And the second I wrote that in my journal, I asked for the idea. So I literally said. Cause I didn't know what the idea was. I literally said, universe, give me the idea, and I will not squander it. And two years later, still selling fax machines, still working at that company, I cut the feet out of my own control top pantyhose to wear under white pants to a party. And the pantyhose rolled up my legs all night, but my body and my rear was like, had no blemishes. It didn't show panty lines. And I thought I should create this. Maybe this is the idea. Cause the sound bite for me for 20 years is Sarah Blakely cut the feet out of her pantyhose. And like speaking banks is here. But the behind the scenes is I set the intention for that two years prior and was very clear with the universe of what I wanted. So I only cut the feet out of my pantyhose one time to solve an undergarment issue. When I decided to start working nights and weekends for two years to see if I could get that prototype made.

I feel very lucky that I met Phoebe and we were able to find really early on, like, what we cared about and what we wanted to spend our time on. But I know so many of my other friends, like, they don't like their corporate job right now or they don't even know what career they want to go into. They just graduated from college. If you were to talk to one of those young people, what would your like? Sarah Blakely, quick tips. This is how to get ahead in life. What would those be?

Number one would be mindset. I would say find anything, listen to podcasts, read books, spend time, like discovering yourself. What do you like? What are you good at? What don't you like? What blockages do you have? There's a lot of people out there that have negative scripts around money. They have negative scripts around deserving a lot of success. And so I would say do that work in the meantime and then trust and then ask the universe. Be very specific or whatever you want to call it. Be very clear and specify what you want. And I got to tell you guys, I started Spanx with $5,000. I went up against billion dollar companies. I was up against Hanes and Sara Lee and these giants with incredible ad budgets and teams of people that were all trained in what they were doing and what they were making. I really have to say, I think one of the main reasons why I was able to not only continue, but to end up disrupting an entire industry around that with no experience was the work I had been doing on myself.

And it honestly ties into something I would love your advice with that. I think we really still struggle with is really, the idea that comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah, for sure. Especially. Especially, I think, for us. Like, we're building in the fashion tech space, and there's a lot of new startups. People are doing a lot of things, and it can get really overwhelming when you see someone doing something super similar to your idea, and then you're like, oh, should we do it the way that they're doing it? Or what should we do? Like, how have you dealt with that through your career?

I mean, there's always knockoffs. I mean, I got, like, I could tell you guys story after story of people knocking off Spanx or trying to knock off Spanx. I always stayed so super connected to the product. And if I was proud of my product and what the consumer was feeling and if I knew I was making a difference in her life, that's what I mostly focused on. I didn't obsess competition at all, really. I mean, I was very much, like, trying to solve an issue for myself. You girls know what you want. You know how you want to use it. You know what you're looking for. And I think you don't want to get too sidetracked by what someone else is doing. I think you can learn from what other people are doing. I mean, there's. There's interesting things that I would see out there that would give me an idea that I'd add to something I was doing. But I never really paid much attention to the competition.

I love that.

I think that's really great advice.

That's healthy and definitely something we should incorporate.

And you guys want to have fun, right? Like, you want to have fun. You want to enjoy this ride. You want to make women's lives easier and better. You want them to have joy when they're shopping, feel like they're smart consumers. You want to help the environment, like, stay connected to your why and don't stress about the rest.

And how do you do that mindset work? Like, can you do it via books and podcasts and journaling? Do you need, like, formalized therapy to do it?

I didn't use. I used Wayne Dyer. Like, he had audio lectures, and I was constantly listening to them. I then found, you know, all these other people back then, Zig Ziglar, Brian Tracy. There weren't a lot of women in the category, but I was always listening Tony Robbins. There were certain things that I was really getting out of what he was saying.

Do you have now a routine that also helps you keep that mindset?

I found that the most important thing for Me to get connected to was, when did I recharge? How did I recharge? And where could I hear my own intuition, that inner voice?

Is someone writing that down? Because we'll run this back for later.

I'm gonna sign in the office.

That's gonna guide you more than anything. So I want to ask you guys this right now. Where does your mind wander? And I'm not talking about where you go through your checklist of what you need to do. Where do you daydream in your daily schedule and in your life right now?

A long, hot bath. For me, I get home from work late at night. I'll put the laptop off on the side. I'll throw in a bath bomb, kick my feet up like that. For me, I feel like is when I'm able to, like, think.

And you'll daydream.

Yeah.

I would say this is probably bad, but I honestly spend probably like at least 30 minutes every night just kind of decompressing. Going off my phone, and I just sit with my thoughts. I'm like, if this really is a good idea, I will wake up in the morning and I will still remember it. And there's definitely been times I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh, shit. I don't remember the idea. But that usually means it wasn't. It wasn't the right idea. It wasn't something super important. But if I remember that idea in the morning or if I feel so strongly that it is such a good idea, I need to pick up my phone to text someone. Even though I'm so tired, that's when I know I'm actually doing really good. Deep thinking.

What I'm impressed with is I asked you guys both this. You both had a quick answer. Like, a lot of people will go, I don't know where that happens for me. So I encourage people first to figure out where it does happen, and then second, once it happens, be intentional about making sure that happens at least daily for you somehow. Right. Like the bath or the time alone. For me, I found out where I get my best downloads is the car. If I'm driving, there's something about that rote activity of driving that I access a certain part of my brain and I'll get intuitive downloads. So once I figured that it was in the car, I would create what my friends called a fake commute. And I would say scheduled time in my car to drive around aimlessly. So I live six minutes from Spanx. I would get in my car an hour before I had to be at the office to drive around aimlessly before I went into the office.

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I love all your stories that you shared about having faith. Like, you met your husband. You knew he was the. You met him late in your life. Like, how do you view your support system?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't get married till I was 37. I dated all kinds of people that didn't, you know, that was like the success didn't bother them. And then it somehow became an issue. And so I went through a lot of that. And then when I met Jesse, I kind of knew right away. I was like, oh, he's in my movie. The minute I met him, I was like, oh, he's in my movie. The other people I dated weren't in my movie. I was like, yeah, I don't see them in my movie. But with Jesse, I remember being specifically nervous about having to share with him that my level of financial success at the time. I didn't want it to ruin what we had. And it didn't. It was great. But I mean, Jesse was so clueless when he first started dating him. I'm not even kidding, you guys. He's like, so Spanx are sold at Barnes and Noble, right? I'm like, no. Like, what in the hell are you talking about? And he's like, well, what is it? And he could not figure it out or grasp it. So I would overhear him. He's such a guy's guy. He'd be at parties and he'd be telling people, like, trying to explain what the hell Spanx was. And then one day, I just remember him going, I don't know. It's like, she's the Michael Jordan of underwear. And they'd all be like, whoa, that's.

What a branding expert.

That's kind of fire.

Get him on the Spanx payroll. He needs to be on the marketing team. I love that.

But I was at dinner with him on the Upper west side in New York, and we were engaged and we were getting married in a few months. And I was so nervous to tell him that I was more successful than I think he thought I was. And I was like, my heart was racing. And I'm like, sarah, I have to tell him. I have to tell him. I have to tell him before we get married. Like, this is just something I need to share. And I go, honey, I have something I need to tell you. And he was. I never forget, he was in the middle of eating spaghetti and, like, the spaghetti was half hanging out his mouth and his eyes got really big because I think he thought I was going to throw a bomb or end it.

Or something, I don't know what.

And I go, I think I make more money than you think I do. And he just looked at me and I swear, I think his eyes teared up a little bit. And he goes, couldn't have happened to a nicer person. And then just kept eating his spaghetti. And it didn't change one thing about our relationship. But to answer your question about who I surround myself with, I have sort of an informal board. So when I make decisions, I call these two or three people. And sometimes there's a fourth that, like, rotates in or out.

And I'd hate to be the fourth. Tough to be the fourth. Tough when you think you're in the three, but you're the fourth. That would be tough.

Well, listen, the fourth doesn't know. And the three don't even really know that they're on this info pov.

Jesse's the fourth. He gets rolled in sometimes. And the fourth.

The fourth changes, too, throughout, like, you know, so. And I will call them and just pressure test, like, I'll give them a Little bit of the context. I'll get their opinions. That's always been part of my decision making process. But then I always get quiet alone and, and then I always, if it's a really big decision, I specifically ask the universe for a sign. And I have been given very clear, very specific signs throughout my life. It is part of my decision making, which. Can you imagine trying to explain this to a bunch of investors? I didn't have investors, so I was able to just kind of honor this very direct link with my own intuition. So if anybody's building a business and has investors surround yourself with people who are going to support you, really honoring your intuition and that inner knowing and inner voice, because that is really important. And you're never going to find intuition on a spreadsheet. It's just not going to be there. It's not in the data necessarily. Sometimes it goes against the data. The data is really important. But for me, that's how I make decisions.

Give me an example of one of those signs. Like if you have a sign.

Oh my God, they're so specific and so intense. I'll go back to Spanx. I was trying to decide if I should do this crazy idea. And I was on two paths in my life at the time. And I said to the universe, I'm so tired of thinking about this. You just give me a really clear sign. And maybe three or four months later, I had been trying to get this made and had already started working on the patent with, you know, wrote most of the patent myself and Oprah. I got the end of her show and she showed the world that she cut the feet out of control top pantyhose to solve an undergarment issue. And I mean, could that be more direct? And could that be more direct from someone who I really admired and respected? Like, it was like, oh my God, it's my sign's from Oprah. And prior to that, I had never heard of that. Thought of it. It's like something I'd already spent 18 months trying to work and was about to give up on. So then once that happened, I was like, oh, oh, this, like bigger than me. Like once I would get these winks from the universe, it would give me so much strength and courage to be able to stand in the room with people who had 20 years experience and say, no, no, no, no. Like I'm. I kind of felt like I was being guided.

And if you're what's so interesting, you're the one. Phoebe taught me something really similar to what you Just said, like, the executive committee.

Oh, yeah.

Phoebe would always, before we made a decision, was like, I need to talk to my executive committee. And then you like, oh, I need to.

My mom is almost. Hey, Melinda, we're gonna.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. I've never thought of that. I feel like I had an informal executive committee where obviously, when I was struggling with things, I would call my aunt or my sister. But the concept of formalizing it has been so cognitively helpful for me because every time I'm in a really hard situation, I'm like, executive committee time.

Yeah.

They. If they think the same thing or if they have advice, like, it will make me feel better. And I think it's having that default of, like, struggle equal. Executive committee is so. That's just so interesting that you both.

Yeah.

Really do that.

Have you guys ever asked for a sign?

Oh, my God, yes. I'm obsessed with numbers. I look at times, like, that's why my phone. Everyone's like, why is your phone on military mode? But it's because it's easier for me to see. Like, angel numbers are things that I honestly always look to for signs. Like, there's been so many times in my life where I'm like, I need a sign or I don't know what's happening, and, like, I need to feel a sense of I'm on the right path or I'm making the right decision. Boom. Like, I see a number that I was just thinking about, or, like, a number that gives me a good feeling. Phoebe thinks I'm crazy, but I, I, I, like, very. Like, I. I think when I see the right numbers, it's. That's my sign. Like, I look for numbers.

Yeah.

Right now I'm really. I really like 444. I've been looking for 444 and 222 a lot.

Why do you think she's crazy?

Because I think it's hilarious. She'll always be wherever we are. We'll be like, stop. We got a number.

I'm like, wait, wait. I need to take a phone.

Call the phone. Like, we got a license. We're doing. It's just concerning because when your co founder goes, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm like, the app is crashed. So I immediately go to open my app, and she's got her phone somewhere taking a photo of a number somewhere. Oh, my goodness.

And why haven't you asked for a sign?

I think I should. I definitely need to. I think I get, like, emotional feelings, like, intuition about Things like that. And I'm very superstitious about, like, 11, 11 on the clock, like setting my intentions for the next day at that time. But honestly, like, I haven't, like, specifically asked for a sign. I think that's something I'm going to.

Do now doing and get back to me.

I will.

I want to hear how it goes.

I'm not going to call her crazy. She says the number thing. No.

But you know what's interesting is a lot of people will say, well, I've never gotten a sign. Like, what do you mean? And I'll say, have you ever asked for one? And they say, no. So it's honestly as simple as that. If you ever want to test it, ask for a sign. Be very specific. I also got a very specific sign that I'm not going to share here because I'll end up sharing it one day in my book on selling the majority of Spanx, which was an enormous decision for me, a very, very big decision. And I said to the universe, okay, I need a sign. And it can't be a rainbow. Like, it can't be generic.

I was like, I can't kind of wonder. I can't wonder. Like, was that my sign? And it gave me the most specific sign ever to do it, to go forward with it.

And are you glad you did that?

It was very difficult decision. It was really an enormous transition for any founders. I mean, I owned Spanx 100% of it for 21 years. I was like, it's mother, it's father. It's like. But I made a decision that felt like an inner knowing, you know? And people would ask me for 21 years, like, when are you going to sell Spanx? You want to go public? And I'd always say, I'll just now.

Can you walk me through the process of, like, the selling a business? Like, just to dumb it down. Like, what does it look like when you're like, okay, now I'm ready to sell this thing? Like, do you reach out to people? Do people reach out to you? Are people always reaching out? If a business, businesses successful people have.

Been reaching out for 21 years with Spanx. In fact, the first six months into the business, all these people kept going, what's your exit strategy? I didn't even know what an exit strategy was. You guys. I just remember said, finally I go, I want to exit a room and look good. Like, that's my exit strategy.

Leave me alone.

Like, I don't know in space, right? And so, yeah, I think the first thing That I did, because I had made the decision was I reached out to people that I knew could help sell the business, and I started the process and it was, it was, you know, a lot of lawyers involved, a lot of voices involved, and, you know, I really had to spend a lot of time checking in with myself along the way.

I think it's so amazing that you figured literally everything out yourself especially. What I really am curious about is what was your process of building a team? Like, when did you realize I can't be the only one? Didn't you do customer service out of your bathtub or something? Like, when did you realize, okay, I need a real customer service team or I need more people, it can't just be me.

Well, right away. And I always say, as soon as you can afford to hire your weaknesses. And one thing that I would tell you guys is, know your superpower. You each have one or two minimum superpowers that you and only you are gonna be the best at contributing to the business that you're starting right now. Stay in your lane as much as you can, and when you start, you're everything. Like, when I started Spanx, it was the packer, the shipper, the before and after butt model. Like, I was like. And it's overwhelming, but I knew what I was best at and what I could contribute. And as soon as I had the money to afford to, I hired operator to run the day to day. That's not my jam. I'm not great at operating. It doesn't fuel me up. It's not where my energy is. I know that I like to invent, market, and sell. So what happens as an entrepreneur is, and this happened to me, as you grow your business, you will start to get more and more removed away with your main superpower. And then you'll start to really experience burnout much faster than if you stay in your lane. So at the end of each day, a good litmus test is, did I spend the majority of my day to day doing what I'm best at? And if you have like, months, years, like days where you're like, I didn't spend any time doing what I'm best at, then you either need to hire people around you, make changes with the hires around you. And what I want to say about hiring and building a team, since you asked, it's really hard. I asked Warren Buffett, who I have a lot of respect for. I said, warren, you've bought a lot of companies. You've seen a lot of CEOs throughout your time like, one thing I really want to ask you is how do you hire? Like, is there a tip you want to give me? Is there something you've seen work? And he goes, oh, Sarah, you know, it's 50% luck. I was like, thanks, Warren. But he's right. I mean, it's really. You can try to do a lot. The most important thing would be to fire fast.

That's hard to do.

I know how to do that. We've started. That's been frankly, a huge learning for us because. And I'll speak transparently, like, we. When we first started the company and you know, we raised. We're so thankful to have you as an investor.

I know. I'm excited.

We love that. But we.

By the way, I'm gonna always honor your intuition. You guys call me and say we're doing this crazy idea and no one else thinks it makes sen. I'm gonna be like, don't worry.

Watch out, we'll put you in.

Were you in the bathtub when you thought of as Phoebe?

Then do it on the Rolodex of the executive council, unfortunately. But we felt like this pressure to hire people that we thought were older and smarter than us. Now we've hired still people we think are smarter than us, but oftentimes aren't people with a ton of industry experience but are willing to roll up their sleeves and do everything that we need at a startup. But how did you learn to fire super fast? Cause I think that was something that we really struggled with, particularly the six months, you know, after we had raised.

It's really hard. I would say that I hired someone to help me do that.

Smart.

And one thing that's really ironic, that I didn't realize how kind of unique this was until I started having conversations with other business owners many years later, which is how I would learn what I was doing was either more mainstream or really completely like off the rocker, according to, like, what they're teaching in School for 25 years. I had one direct report.

How did you structure that?

I always had one person that was my right hand, that was the president or this appointed CEO, and that was my direct report. And the leadership team reported to them.

When do you know? Okay, I need to go get best practices from industry experts. And when do you know? I need to rip up the playbook and do this myself.

I never asked industry experts.

It served you well.

I mean, I use the industry experts to help co create. Like they know what they're doing. So of course I'd be in the room and at the manufacturing plant going, what if we did this? And, you know, I was always the one that was really pushing outside of the bounds of what they had been trained to do. And they would always respond, it can't be done. No matter what. It was like a default. And I would get really excited when they say, it can't be done, because that meant, like, oh, that's where I want to play. Like, what do you mean it can't be done? And then I would always respond, we put a man on the moon. That kind of became my thing. I was like, we put a man on the moon, and you're telling me we can't attach control top to open weave fishnets? Like, hmm, can we rethink this? You know, they're like, can't be done. It's gonna separate. It's not gonna work. I'm like, mm, okay.

How do you stay that persistent? Like, how do you not take for an answer?

I just feel like, of course it can be done. Of course it can be done.

It's just.

It's your truth.

I love that it's my truth. Like, I don't even know another. It's just so apparent to me.

When you invest with Fidelity Go, it does all the work for you. So while Fidelity Go monitors the markets, rebalances your portfolio, and tracks your progress to keep your investments aligned with your goal, you can invest your time however you want, all while paying no advisory fees. Under 25k. Invest your money, not your time, with Fidelity Go. Get started@fidelity.com go Advisory services offered by Strategic Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Brokerage services provided by Fidelity Brokerage Services, llc, Member NYSE and sipc.

Before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun. But here's a confession, Fashionistas. You can find that fun feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling. It's a fashion pursuit.

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So we're going to name different business things. And if you say Spanx, like, good, no Spanx is cut it bad.

Got it.

Think of your early days when you were in the middle of it. Like, would you have done this Spanx or no Spanx?

Okay, number one, dropping out of college to start a business without a business degree.

It could go Spanx or no Spanx.

True. Okay. Wearing heels on a red carpet.

Spanx.

Okay.

Unless you're wearing sneaks, then definitely.

That's even better.

Firing someone who's an incredible genius. But they're toxic for your culture.

Spanx, you got to get rid of them.

Yeah.

Okay.

Posting your idea on TikTok to validate it before it's patented.

No Spanx. Really why you want to protect it?

How do you go about knowing that people actually really like your idea before you start working on it?

If you like it, which is what I did, I felt comfortable enough to move forward. Like, if it filled a void in my life, which in my case, it was my closet, then I was willing to move forward with it. I had maybe a few friends, my mom give me feedback, but I really trusted what how me as a consumer felt with the product and the void that it filled.

And you talked about sneaks being like, a process for 15 years. What did that look like? Like, from conception. Comfortable heel. Duh. Everyone wants that. That's a genius idea. But how did it go from that to, like, okay, I'm gonna bring this to life?

Oh, my gosh. Well, it took 10 years. And the first four years, I had two people at Spanx that were actually bra designers and bra builders. Bras are really technical that I pulled aside to help me make the shoe. And I wanted it to look just like a traditional high heel. That was the goal. But to be exponentially more comfortable. After four years of development, it was more comfortable, but it wasn't exponentially more comfortable. So I said to the team, we're gonna cut our losses that already invested a lot of money. But I always say, if you're gonna create a product, you wanna make sure it's exponentially better than what's already out there. For me, I have sort of this 10x thought in my mind, because you wanna build a moat around what you're doing, and starting a new business is what really, really hard. So you want that kind of an advantage. And they weren't comfortable enough.

So as I was throwing in the towel, I said to the factory in Spain, like, guys, I don't understand why this has been so hard. I just want my high heel to feel like my sneaker. And then in that moment, I looked at the team and I said, you know what? Let's not give up. I have another thought. And I decided to merge a sneaker with a heel. I went home from Spain, cut my sneaker in half, cut my high heel in half, glued them together, hobbled around my house thinking, would this even kind of look good together? Would it work? I completely pivoted the inventing and the direction of it. And so I didn't set out to create a shoe that looked like this at all. The innovation and my goal for comfort is what led me to this.

I love that so much.

It's literally like the. If you want something done right, do it yourself.

Totally. And you know what's so interesting is, like, I'm fascinated by things that haven't changed in a really long time. Some things in our culture iterate constantly. And then some things, I mean, a high heel has been the same since the 1700s, you guys. I mean, it's made by men. It's been made by men for centuries. So there wasn't the point of view of comfort. And that's where I get really excited. I get really energized by, wait a minute. Women have been neglected. How we feel has been neglected. I feel like the beauty industry has been really focused for a long time on how we look, but not how we feel. And so even 25 years ago, when I first started Spanx, my whole point of difference was, no, I'm in the room and I actually care how she feels. And, you know, I built my whole business around that. I didn't have any experience. I'd never taken a business class. I didn't work in fashion or retail. But I felt like I wanted to advocate for women through product.

One thing that we've started doing that, I'm not gonna lie, the first time we did, I cried a little bit because it was ruthless. But now has really sped up. Our product iteration cycle is luckily, people in New York love free food, love free wine. So we'll have every other week just 40 young women come to our office, try the app. I literally went home and cried after the first time. Cause they were like, this thing sucks. But to be fair, it did suck. We were just stuck in our heads and thought, oh, this thing's perfect. Cause we hadn't put it in front of actual consumers. Consumers. And now seeing every two weeks as we ship new features, okay, this is. Is Improved. Okay. They like this. They don't like this. Okay, we need to go back to the drawing board here. Do you have anyone who would test prototypes and such for you that's so.

Smart that you guys did that? I mean, feedback is king. Like you want, you know, And I would actually, when I would give people Spanx, I would say, what do you think? They would always say I like it or it's nice. And then I would force them to give me negative. So I would always say, okay, okay, great. If there were two things you had to improve or if you could wave a magic wand, what would you change? Even all throughout Spanx, I had really not any formal focus groups because I was the consumer. And so I really, I really trusted myself. In the early days as the product got launched, I actually went out and stood in department stores for two years where the consumer was. So all day, every day, seven hours a day, I stood where the consumer was. I was hearing her in the dressing room, I was watching her come out in it. I was hearing all her, you know, organic feedback. And that was incredible.

How do you figure out what's like, useful feedback versus, like, useless feedback from, you know, people who aren't the target consumer that you should just like, kind of drown out and like, go forward with what you think?

I just feel like, you know, you know, I mean, I welcome all feedback. For example, when I launched Sneaks, I knew that Sneaks style was gonna be very polarizing. I wanted to start with a very disruptive looking shoe because it is disruptive. It's a 3 inch stiletto that's actually comfortable. So feedback around how it looked did not bother me. But any feedback on the fit, I was really tuned into.

Has there been any times you've gotten feedback that really ended up changing the product either for Spanx or for Sneaks?

Yeah, I mean, you know where I would say I got most of my feedback for my next idea? Like, for example, the first product was basically pantyhose that I'd cut the feet off of that stopped just below the knee, which gave women a really smooth look under clothes. And I love clothes, but everything showed, like, you know, I'd wear a thong. You could see it under my clothes. I'd call my friends that were all models and say, what are you wearing in this ad? Because nothing's showing. And they go, oh, we're airbrushed. And I go, okay, well, what is the average woman like at home too? And so I wanted Spanx to kind of be a kid canvas under the Clothes just very invisible and very smooth. Like, they would come out and they would say, I really like this. But you know what I wish existed? Like, more of a shaper short that, like, didn't leave that bulge on my thigh.

Oh.

And I'd go, okay, you know, like, that. That needs to happen. And then, you know, I. I just overhear next ideas.

That's so interesting. Where did you get the idea to just start going into department stores? I think for us, we just realized we were so in our heads because, like, what Phoebe said, we call it the dark night now because we were so confident. We thought everything made so much.

There were multiple dark nights.

There was a lot of dark nights. But then women would come and say, wait, no, like, this doesn't solve a problem for me. Or actually, this is really confusing. I don't understand what these numbers mean. And then we would look at each other and be like, oh, no, we need to always be getting other people's opinions on things.

Are you guys very aware of what was similar out there? Or were you filling a complete void? Or were you really improving upon something that's out there?

Yeah. It's actually so interesting because we really wanted to create a tool that we didn't really feel existed yet, which was, as you're shopping, it shows you the cheaper secondhand option we learned from our users. People were doing girl math. They would say, like, okay, this heel is like $400, right? And then it's reselling for $350. So actually, if I bought it and resold it, it really holds its value. I'm actually only paying $50. And so they were trying to, like, fast fashion items instantly depreciate, like, they lose their value.

Right.

And things that are higher quality made really well and are also very popular and hyped. Which, by the way, sneaks is. It's reselling for a lot of its value. On Poshmark, I was like, wow, this is amazing.

Wait, people are already reselling their snakes?

Yes. For more.

That's insane.

For more than it sells. More than. These are sold out. People are buying your sneaks and then reselling them for more than the retail value?

Yes.

Oh, my God, that's wild.

And it's, like, very rare because we were looking at other girls.

I'm actually paying women to buy sneaks.

They're making money to buy sneaks.

Did you hear that, lady?

Yeah. And it's so interesting because we didn't realize that, but then we were talking to these girls, and we were like, oh, like what do you think of fia? Blah, blah, blah, like, have you been finding these cheaper secondhand items? And then they were like, oh, actually I've been using it to find which items actually like hold their value and are good investments.

That is interesting.

If we think of shopping as like this kind of crazy triangle of like, I don't know what I want to buy, I'm going to Jamaica. And then it's like, okay, I want a skirt for Jamaica. And then it's like, I want this skirt like right now. FIA helps you at the point where you found the skirt to see, hey, does it exist cheaper? Hey, is this a good buy? Does it hold its value or not? I think the long term vision is because we're in the browser expanding even more top of funnel to like, be more discovery. Like, hey, you're going away to Jamaica next week. Hey, Sarah, why don't you check out, you know, this new skirt you could buy and we know you might like it because this is a sustainable brand and based on your past purchase behavior, here's some options. Or you could wear this outfit that we know is already in your closet. What do you think has changed from launching Spanx and then to launching Sneeze?

I mean, when I launched Spanx, there was no social media. The iPhone didn't exist. I mean, the Internet was just becoming a thing. In order for people to even know what the brand was, I had to stand on department floor stores for seven to eight hours a day for two to seven years, spreading the word. And now you can have a social media post go viral and everybody kind of knows what you're up to and what you're doing. Imagine you invent something. If those four or five department stores say no to you, no one's ever going to know you exist. The only places anybody had to go buy something was in a store like that. So I did what was called Spanx days. I drove to every Neiman's. I would rent a car and like stay in some sketchy hotel along a highway with like seriously sketchy. And then I would go and do a morning meeting and I would rally the entire store. And I found out then when I got morning meetings, they would only let me be in front of the hosiery people, which were like five people that didn't like their jobs. And I was like, this is not worth my time. Like, I just rented a car, flew on a plane, like spent my money in a hotel. So then I would run around the store and I would convince the women who sold makeup the People who sold shoes and the women that sold couture dresses to come to my morning meeting, which was really unusual. And the way I did that was like I won them over by saying, you're going to sell more dresses. If you listen to what my product is, you're going to sell more shoes. It's always what's in it for them. Every step of the way, be thinking, what's in it for the person I'm talking to? What's in it for this customer? What's in it for the buyer? What is in it for them? So I was obsessed with that. And then I'd hold a morning meeting, and then I would stand in the entrance of the store, set up a little table with a laminated picture of my own butt before and after, in. I'm not kidding, in the Spanx in cream pants, and sell them for them. And the only reason why is because every step of the way, that you guys can control the outcome of your success. Take it.

How do you think about marketing for sneaks? How is it different now?

I mean, now it's very much digital marketing and social and influencers. I'm a big believer in if you can afford to gift your product. I gift, you know, a lot of the sneaks out for people to try it because it's a real product that you want to stand in to believe how comfortable it is. And yeah, so that's. That's a big difference also. The difference is I have four children and I'm married. I'm not single in an apartment, so that feels good. And what I like about that is my kids didn't see me build Spanish.

Yeah.

So part of when I was doing my pro and con list of even doing sneaks was the fact that I had children that would be able to see the hustle and some of the hard work that goes in the beginning and the ups and downs and all the craziness. Like, they came into my life when Spanx was already pretty established. So I can tell them stories like, your mommy used to, like, work around the clock and, like, really, you know, struggle and cry a lot and not know what I was doing. But now they're getting to see it. You know, boxes of sneaks show up, and they were in our garage, and, you know, Tepper's trying them on, and the kids are giving me feedback on the shoes, and I'm including them. I named one of the shoes the Tepper after my daughter. Yeah. So that's been fun.

I mean, we've learned so much from you. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I know everyone listening is going to learn so much as well. Sarah Blakely thank you for coming on the Burnouts.

Yes, no problem. Thanks for having me guys.

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