Meet the Cult Gaia Founder Who Turned Rejection Into a $50 MILLION Brand

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One of the dolls is named after me. It's Yasmin on the Burnouts.

We love stories of women who turn creative sparks into lasting businesses.

Our guest today is Jasmine Lirian Hechma, the founder and creative director of Cult Gaia.

Persian women are the goddesses that I grew up admiring.

She's built a company that survived the.

Hype cycle and kept growing without losing its DNA.

Hi, I'm Jasmine. I'm the founder of Cult Gaia and you're watching the Burnouts.

I want to back up before you are the fashion icon and business owner that you are today. Talk us through 2012. You've graduated from FIT. What does it look like to start your own brand?

It started as a hobby actually, which is a surprise to everyone, including myself. I never wanted the first thing. I started to be the thing, which is also why I didn't name it after myself. I was making flower crowns for friends for birthdays and wired hair turbans out of vintage fabric that I collected over the years. And I was just doing it for fun. Like I'd write a little note and I'd be like, happy birthday. And our friends would start wearing it around the city. And one night all my friends were over and they're like, why are you trying to make this like big brand? Because at the time I was graduating, I was going to move home and I was like creating a couture line of dresses and they're like, well how are you doing this when everyone's trying to buy these off of us when we go out? And I was like, okay, I'll just do this for fun. That night I learned how to make a website on Weebly and I took pictures of My friends wearing everything. I named the crowns and the hair turbines after them. And I went live literally, like the next day. Then we had a article on Daily Candy, which at the time was a really big deal. I remember waiting up to see the article and I still can't chase that feeling.

And where did the name Cult Gaia come from?

I feel like every great brand is cult like for me, flower crowns are cult like. To me, you know, my friends wearing the crowns around the city was like a cult like thing. If you had one, you were part of lore in a way. And Gaia is the goddess of Mother Earth and the daughter of chaos. And I think chaos and femininity is such a powerful force. I see chaos in our brainstorms. I see chaos when I need to come up with like a really far out idea. And I'm constantly inspired by the power of femininity and the strength of creations.

I feel like in every single piece, I see femininity and also such artistry. Your pieces are not carbon cut. Oh, this is what everyone's wearing today. They're always novel, they're always unique. What does your design process look like?

I want you to be able to wear something and someone be like, oh my God, what is that? Without it being so overt. I think that there's a beauty in the contrast of this. It should feel effortless, but you should still be noticed for what you're wearing. It's really important to make women feel so good about themselves that even what they're wearing, it becomes like second skin. It's almost like a shield in a way. I think the way people dress, when you see superheroes, they have a costume because the costumery makes them transform. So I hope that what we make also can make women feel like it's transformative and they can feel like the goddess, not scared to be looked at. Do you have a favorite piece you've ever made? This. This is something that's like an OG piece. And I love it because the pleats are a little bit irregular. It's totally imperfect. But, you know, I'm super inspired by arches and the cir. Like a huge part of my inspiration is the sun and the moon. I love that it creates this like half moon shape on your body that. And then we have something recently. One of my most favorite is the Florence clutch. It's a vase that basically opens so when you're walking around, it just looks like you're carrying a vase, but it's a purse. And I love that it gets people talking like That's. That's the core of what I want to do, is get people to have conversations over beautiful, unique things.

Walk us through the process of, when does this turn from a hobby into a real company?

It's a hobby. For a really long time, I kind of was just going with whatever came next. I'm the type of person who can't sit down, who's just constantly working. And so the more demand I had, the more flower crowns we would make. And I was doing this for about, like, five years. I was selling to free people. I was selling to random hair salons. I was making them all myself with one other person who actually still works with me. And then the flower crowns became this, like, really big cultural trend, and Coachella started taking off, and we were knocked off everywhere. And it became kind of this fast fashion thing. So I pivoted and I started doing fresh flower crown. It kind of made the product obsolete. It would die, but they still would have this flower crown with our logo on it on this gold chain. And I used the fresh flower crown cart to go to different festivals. Like, Levi's would hire us, so they'd pay me to make fresh flower crowns. But our cart said the name Cult Gaia. And then everyone who would get a flower crown, I would ask for their email, and we would say, if you post, I'll give you, like. And I would take the arc bag at the time, which I made, and no one bought for two years. No one would buy this bag, so I had to liquidate it. So I started giving people this bag out of the bottom of the cart. That's when it really started to take.

Off and talk about the arc bag and that going viral. What did it feel like when it first went viral? Do you feel like that feeling you're still chasing as well?

Yes. I am so lucky. I got to experience what it looks like for a product to go viral. I learned, like, the power of the snowball effect and just how momentum for virality is probably the most important thing. The bag wouldn't sell at all, ever. Two years I was giving it away. Then all of a sudden, one night, I noticed we had, like, 10 orders. The next day we had, like, 20. And then all of a sudden, we were completely out of stock, and it became this massive craze. I knew that the bag was amazing because I'd go out with it and everyone would stop me. It just wouldn't sell. I think it was priced too low. It was like, $38 before I had any overhead. I would take it to Barney's. I would put it on the shelf and I would watch people go and be like, what is this? So I knew that I had something there and it just took time for people to catch up. I think Instagram played a huge role. Finally, people seeing it and actually being able to be influenced without getting it in a store. I really needed this brand for it to be what it was. It really needed to be straight to the customer. I needed to speak directly to them. Then all of a sudden, it just completely took off. And that's when I started taking the business really seriously. And I didn't want to photograph our stuff with anyone else's things. So I started making clothes for our photo shoots. And then we started selling the clothes and then slowly, wholesale accounts like Net A Porter started coming around and they blew out of the bag. And then I was like, look, I have ready to wear first. Everyone was like, no, you're a one hit wonder. Like, why are you doing anything but bags? I was very cognizant of the fact that if I stuck to bags, I wouldn't have a business in a couple years. And I needed to make sure that I could diversify the product line because you can't depend on one hit every year to just be in bags.

So why do you think for two years you didn't give up and you continued to believe in the bag?

I never give up. I think that's like a huge part of who I am, is I'll keep going. I'm relentless. What do you think the most unhinged.

Thing you've done to get the arc bag sold before it took off was.

I think, putting it in the Barney's shelves.

Without them knowing?

Yeah, without them knowing. I would just go there as a customer and I'd put it on the shelf.

And then would people ask the Barney's people?

Yes. Wow.

And then what did they do?

I feel like it's called Gaia.

And then it went viral in Korea. How did it end up in Korea?

You never can underestimate the power of one placement. We were in a store that had a lot of really, really cool brands, and they decided to carry the arc. And I think a celebrity there wore it. And the culture there is super focused on celebrity. And so it from there, it just went crazy. And then I had another friend, Claire Distenfeld. She had a store called Five Story New York, and it was kind of like an upscale multi brand store. This really was the shift from like a free people brand, which is where the brand could have go on to what it is. I always thought Cult Guy would be like my side hustle brand. My big plan was always to have this, like, couture luxury, but better price point brand. And that's what I was working on before I graduated. I really got lucky that the vision I had kind of was able to blend into what I was working on. I could have gone completely the other direction, but when she, Claire, put the product in the store and in the window next to Gucci bags, we tapped into a whole new customer. And it became very obvious to me that I could sell something at an attainable price point to a very discerning, art oriented artist.

So the first bag was priced at $38.

I kind of see the ark, not as a profit, you know, product, but as a. It keeps my acquisition lower. At least they're buying something from Kalkaya as an acquisition tool instead of me spending, you know, marketing money against acquisition.

You guys have crazy repeat purchase rate. It's like 44%, which I thought is fascinating. How do you think about as the company has grown, keeping that target consumer in mind and staying close to the target consumer?

I'm the target consumer, so I am creating for myself and my peers and the people that I, you know, really admire and look up to. And I think in fashion, people want to come back to something new. I try to make sure that we are infusing true newness every season. And my job is to inspire people. If I'm not inspiring them every time they come into a store, every time they look at a product, and if they're not discovering more about a piece they're wearing, the more they wear it, then there's no reason for me to be in fashion.

Walk us through. What were some of the biggest marketing lessons that you learned when you were first trying to get your name out the door?

At the beginning, gifting is so important. Later on, it's less important. But at the beginning, you really need to go after everyone and make sure there's no stone unturned. Everyone should know about your brand, and relationships are super, super important. So I think making sure you're cultivating those relationships, getting people super excited about what you're creating. You are your biggest marketer. So, you know, being the face of that, I think is goes a really, really long way.

Biggest marketing choice that you made early on, that was a huge success. And then what's a marketing mistake? You're like, oh, I learned this. I wouldn't do this again.

I think marketing mistake comes down to content. I think sometimes like when your business is growing, you have people come in that think that they know better than you do on how your visuals should be. And I think the biggest learning that I made is marketing is so much of a gut thing and the founder, especially in early days should really feel it like it makes sense. Otherwise I don't think it's totally aligned with the customer. Like Cult Guy is such a happy, sun filled brand. You know for me, even if I'm doing the fall collection, I think the sun is still always shining on us. So going too dark and moody is not the way One of my biggest things is if a product and an image doesn't make you exhale, then it's not called Gaia.

On December 19, based on the best selling novel, Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney star in the Housemaid, a wildly entertaining thriller about a live in housemaid and the wealthy Winchester family experience a twisted world where perfection is an illusion and nothing is as it seems. The shocking twists will leave you guessing until the very end. Can you keep a secret? The Housemaid Rated R. Only in theaters December 19th. Get tickets now.

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You guys are so distinctive because you do have such a special visual identity. Every time I feel like I wear something called Gaia or someone else is wearing Cult Gaia, it's so obvious to me. You can instantly tell where do you think that you developed your sense of style and fashion because you went to Fit right fashion school. And then obviously also with Bratz, I feel like that's so fashion oriented. Walk us through like your very, very early days. Where do you think a lot of your fashion inspiration came from?

Well, my mom was actually a fashion designer and she also was a sculptor. So I kind of grew up with, you know, I would go in our linen closet and she still had the big bags of fabric and sequins and just treasures from when she was at fidm. And so I was playing through those. You know, she collected fabric and then I would go with her to her life drawing classes. So I was kind of surrounded with art my whole life. And then my dad started MJ Entertainment, which is the toy company that also started Bratz. And so for me, that was like the early days. I really learned how, you know, packaging impacts the product, how, you know, we would work through the little details of the clothes so often because kids are so focused on their worlds are so small. So they're looking at the little details, which I think is what really trained me to focus on smaller details and appreciate the importance of the little things.

Do they ever had advice or thoughts on your brand?

My dad has a lot of advice.

Any good advice you've gotten from him?

Of course. I look up to him so much. He's given me great advice. But, you know, his biggest thing is fortune favors the bold. He's really taught me to be much bolder than you know. I think is in me more audacious.

I was reading your first word was.

Le boss, which in Farsi is close. You know more about me than I do.

No, but I want to know more about how do you think that you're. Because obviously I'm also Persian. If in any way your Persian upbringing influenced the work you do.

Our Persian culture, beauty is definitely a huge part of it. The food is colorful. We have so many parties and so many events and that women really show up to. And the women take a lot of care of themselves. And they really. It's so much a part of who we are. To me, like, these Persian women are the goddesses that I grew up admiring and seeing at so many events. So I was marinating in this whole world my whole life. You know, I would see my mom get ready for these events. Like it's. It's truly a part of, you know, the culture and the uniform. And who the women are is to take care of themselves. It's not vain. It's totally a part of who they are. And so I think so much of what we create is attention grabbing in a way that's also very Iranian.

I completely agree. When I look at your designs, for some reason, they really radiate Persian energy to me, just in the architecture and everything. So that's so beautiful. And I'm also curious with your dad and with Bratz, how did you get involved in the business? Originally, because you work with him today on Bratz. Right.

So I was 12 years old when we had an inventor come to the office. I was there during the summer, and my dad's like, let me. You can come into this meeting, but don't say anything.

Yeah, right.

And I was like, oh, my. I couldn't hold back. I thought this was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. So he was like, okay, let's do it. And so one of the dolls is named after me. It's Yasmin. And I was very involved from an early age. I would sit with the designers. I was learning a lot. They would ask me what I think, what I felt. We were creating themes around each doll. We were pulling inspiration from magazines. So I was super involved whenever I could be. And then more recently, when more hands were off the brand, I decided to make it a little bit more of my project and bring it back for the generation that missed it. And it's a lot of fun because it's like working on something completely different than Cult Gaia, which is cool, I think, and really important to do. I didn't realize how valuable it would be to work on something that is so different. It gives you such a different perspective on how to do things. Not only I'm a little bit more of an employee for Bratz, so it gives me a different perspective on how to think, and it also helps me be a better leader for the Bratz brand.

I. Growing up, I feel like I always had Bratz dolls because obviously I wanted the dolls with darker hair. It used to be a compliment where someone would say, oh, you look like a Bratz doll. That's so funny. No, because. Well, that's sweet. But that's so funny because you get to say, oh, well, the Bratz dolls look like you technically, because it was designed or modeled after you. How cross synergistic do you feel like the learnings have been between the two companies?

So much? I think fashion business is the toy business. If anything, toys are much, much harder. You have to be so forward. Newness is so important. You need to constantly be surprising the customer. Everything creative needs to be running on all cylinders in order to be successful. My dad always says the toy business is the fashion business on crack.

Because it kind of is like my closet to me. It's like play dressing up as play. Who am I going to be today, how I feel, how confident I am.

So much of what Cult Gaia is, is I'm creating product that feels like it brings you so much joy. I hope in a way that toys would do for children.

Obviously, over the last few years, Colt Gaia has become such a huge successful brand and one of the things that stood out to me is that you chose not to take on investor money. Why did you decide not to take on venture capital funding?

I need to be free. That's like a core pillar for me is being free. This is why I also didn't take family money. I wanted to have something that's entirely my own and I can do whatever I want with and take. Taking on money made me feel like I would grow very inorganically and not serve myself or my customer. That's not totally the case for the future, but especially in building the roots of the brand. I wanted the roots to be entirely ours. I was lucky that I wasn't trying to build it so, so quickly, so I didn't need funding. I could put back the money we were making into the brand. And the fact that we had a direct to consumer business meant we had cash, which I think was everything. It wasn't just wholesale VC money means I have to answer to someone else and I don't want to.

For now, as the business has, you know, grown, you guys are profitable. You guys have seven stores. What does your week look like?

It's pretty crazy because I'm also managing a household.

Yeah, you have three kids.

I make life work for me. My kids school is very close to my office, so I get to do drop offs and pickups. But I the way I've started operating now is I do the most important things for the week. My assistant schedules them. But then I kind of find where the business needs me most, like what's kind of not working, what's failing. And then I become obsessed with that part. Like if our customer service isn't working, I become customer service. I'm in the details. I'm under the hood of the car and I'm figuring that out. If I feel like my shoe business needs more attention, I get into that obsessively for like a week. And I found that that really works really well and I'm able to be more effective because you realize that when someone is so in just their role, they're not thinking of how to do things better. So obviously my job is to empower them to do so, but sometimes it's just helpful to just get in there.

And how do you think about expanding into different verticals? I know you guys have like a kids business now and that's doing incredibly well. And now you're doing fragrances. Can you walk us through the journey of expanding into fragrances? And what does it look like for you and your team when you're like, okay, this is a new vertical I want to explore? Do you market map first? What does that process look like?

So first we're like, does this. Is this something we can do better than anyone else? Is this something our customer needs from us? And is this something that could be, like, addicting? Like, it's so good that you need to come back? If the answer is yes, then odds are, I'll do it.

People are like, you're crazy. You're doing so much. Sit down. And I'm like, no, if it makes sense, I have to do it because.

I can see it light you up as you talk about it.

Yeah, I love creating new things and I love being able to do something that feels unique. For me, the worst possible scenario is just slapping a brand name on anything and calling it a product that we.

I'm going to mid journey. Horrible photos of things, the cool guy logo on it.

That's part of the reason why luxury is seeing a downturn, is they're all making the same thing and they just put a logo and it's almost taking the customer for granted. I never assume my customer's stupid, ever. You know, I'm sure there's people out there that would just love a logo on something, but I never make that assumption. I assume that they only want the absolute best. They only want to discover more about a product the more they see it. You know, they want to put their money towards something that has a story and is special. And so I think that's what really drives me. So going into kids, I had a daughter and I really wanted to dress her. And I felt like I wasn't getting, you know, the creativity and the magic that I bring to cult Gaia in that space. That's why we did that for fragrance. You know, so much about fragrance is not only like the juice, but it's the bottle. Our bottle is, you know, our glass is made in Mexico. The top of the bottle is hand poured in Italy.

The arch inspiration to love it.

Exactly. It's all these different, you know, colors. It's inspired by sea glass. So for me, it's not only now they get to hold something that's an object that's beautiful, but you get to also wear a scent that to me is memory. Clothing can only activate your memory so much. And so much of cult guides were part of everyone's major moments in life. But then also now, if you get to wear the scent, it ties you back to you know, really important memories in a way that clothing and objects can't only do.

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You have this like core like customer obsession that I see is like a thorough line through everything. And even before like I asked you to come on, every time we're texting, you're always talking about like customer obsession or asking me things about what I like, what I don't like. Like I feel like that's something you've always had that's been core to your business. But how do you find people for your team who also have that? And what would you say your biggest interview tips are for someone who's breaking into fashion?

I've actually noticed the things that make me burn out is being around people who aren't as excited as I am. I'm starting to learn that honestly, culture is almost more important than skill. Someone who's so obsessed and passionate is going to give you more than you know, a checklist of skill. So I've started screening more for that brand fit. Brand obsessed and for interviews, the best advice I would give is be super yourself, be passionate. And my biggest theme now is clarity is kindness. I want to be super clear with people that fashion is very stressful. It's very hard. We're making beautiful things, but it's very hard to make good product. If you're just looking at the things that make it beautiful and you're not understanding of what it takes to get there, then I wouldn't necessarily choose to do it for you.

As a first time female founder, what do you think have been some of the biggest lessons that you've learned?

The biggest thing I can tell people is make sure you protect your margin at all costs. Costs, margin is everything.

So make sure you're properly formatting your cost sheets. You can't run a business without margin. Try to stay lean at the beginning and only put money where it needs to be put. So that way you can kind of work out all, you know, the issues a little bit yourself. The understanding of knowing how to fix things yourselves makes it easier to make sure that no one's taking advantage of you later on. And you should know what you're being, you know, what you're talking about. Getting multiple bids on different things I think is really important so that you can make sure that you're benchmarking your costs against different prices so you're not getting ripped off.

Is that for suppliers or like when you're building the store?

Everything okay? Everything. I'll never approve the first price.

I don't know if you remember this, but one of our first ideas was like a marketplace for FIO and we were trying to find images for the website and I was like, how do you get your images? Because they look like someone spent millions of dollars.

Thank you. They're so expensive.

They're gorgeous. You're always sending me like it looks like you're in Antarctica with a bunch of models. Like, it's gorgeous. How do you find like really exceptional, like visual talent for things like photography?

I'm constantly online. We would find people that, you know, want to work with us. Luckily, there's a lot of that. When I first started, I had a core team that I would do every shoot with and we just, they got it, you know what I mean? And we would keep and everyone was down to do the craziest things.

How much would you say you are spending your day to day on the creative process? I'd love to know what that process looks like of you have an idea, you flesh out a concept for a dress. How, how does something like that work?

I'm doing so many different categories, so it's way more structured. So I have weekly team meetings, and I'm building collections, like, a year in advance.

What does it look like when you're coming up with ideas, like, visually, like, do you mood board? What does that look like?

I pull. Usually a muse starts first. It could just be an image. I'm like, this is the girl. Okay, so, like, what is she wearing? I start imagining where she's going and who she is. She's not a real person, but it's just like someone, you know, who I can follow. And then I. It gets kind of mishmash, you know, Then I'm like, oh, I'm so inspired by Georgia o' Keeffe right now. And then Santa Fe, New Mexico, and then this flower. And so we start boarding all of these things, and we're like, what are these colors? How are these colors relating to the previous season? Because I always want people to be able to wear what we made last season with this season. I really believe in making product that's timeless. I don't want people throwing away Cult Gaia. I want them to save it for their kids. You know what I mean? And then we, you know, obviously, what. What does the business need? That's what a merchandiser comes in for, and they pull history. And, you know, this is doing well, so let's, you know, comp to that business, and that's doing well. So let's, you know, elaborate on that. It's just a storm. I mean, being in fashion is like a crazy storm. And then the, you know, the ultimate product sometimes doesn't even go back to the inspiration at all. And it keeps evolving over the whole year.

So can you walk me through what it looks like to actually run, like, the logistics of the business? How did you find your first supplier?

So I found suppliers and Alibaba at first.

You're joking.

I swear.

Did you just Google?

And I was like, oh, I need bamboo for the arc bag. I need bamboo supplier.

What does someone do if people knock off their designs? You just have to move on.

Now if I feel like other brands are like us, I start racing to my next idea. Like, I run, and it actually. It becomes the best thing for us because it keeps us fresh, and it keeps the customer interested in something new. So I'm like, oil and water. If it. If I feel like someone's coming for me, I'm like, next. Let's go.

Seems like there's this cycle. It's like, okay, you know, like the arc bag isn't selling, then it's everywhere and it's selling up a storm, and then something gets copied. And it kind of seems like that's the cycle of success in fashion when something really is incredible.

It's an honor, I guess.

I think one thing I'm curious about that we think about a lot is how we make communities scalable. I mean, we have like our via VIP group chat where it's like all the power users, we're talking to them about new features, they're telling us what they like and hate. But as the brand expands, like, you guys have kept community so core. Like, I saw this influencer, we were scrolling on TikTok the other day in prep for this interview who was trying to remake the mercier bag like diy and then you guys responded and ended up sending it to her. Like, first of all, this is incredible, but how do you guys, like, constantly keep your community first?

The reason I started call guys, I would see things and I'd be like, I can make. So when I saw this influencer doing this, my team flagged me and I was like, oh, my God, this is. This is a hard bag to make. This is actually something she won't be able to make, but let's like watch and see. And we were just so excited to actually be able to give her the bag. And then also, obviously we got a viral content moment out of it.

Well, you know what's so funny? The top comment is this was great PR for them because you just proved that the bag can't be duplicated.

It's a hard bag to duplicate.

Okay.

We have so many dupes. So I try to make things hard to duplicate, which is why, like our acrylic, I try to make it look like stone. So none of them are the same. Obviously we get duplicated all the time anyways, but the harder you make it, the longer it takes.

I'm looking at the before and after, and definitely her bag looks amazing, but it looks very different than the one that you guys made.

All of a sudden now we have this whole. That whole comment section is a potential Cult Gaia fan, which I think is so valuable.

And I mean cultgaia. The account commented, we're sat and it became a whole series. I love that. How do you guys approach social media now?

So I've learned a lot about how to approach social media through Bratz. Actually. This is like one of the ways that, you know, the cross pollination of being able to do one and the other is so helpful. The Bratz customer is so social in a way that the Cult Gaia customer is totally. It's really taught me to be so connected to the customer first to speak their language and even just try to surprise them. You know, I always say, even if they're scrolling on Instagram, like, the way they feel about seeing a Cult Gaia product in the wild is how they should feel when they see it on their phone. Is this like, aha. Oh, my God. What? What is that? You know, takes your breath away. Moment. Something you want to share? You know, I heard something. Mr. Beast did a podcast, and I'm pretty inspired by what he's created. And he said something about the purple cow. Like, if you see a purple cow in the middle of a street, you're gonna stop. And so he approaches everything around this, like, purple cow. So now really the focus is how do you make content that way and that more disruptive? I think, you know, AI is changing the way we consume images so fast. So it's, in a way, a beautiful thing, because now I have to be so much more creative with content, and it's become its own product.

I'm. I'm looking at the. The Kolkaya TikTok. Now. Where do you get the idea for really interesting, outlandish concepts? I'm specifically looking at this strawberry collaboration. How did that happen?

Well, Oishi is, you know, like luxury strawberry. And to me, Kalkaya is also about, like, fruit and, you know, we make a grape bag. So for me, it's. How do you extend the retail experience to make things more special? Sometimes I just want our customers to be able to have the things that I think are great. And so we collaborated with Oishi to give these amazing omakase strawberries to our customers for, like, two weeks in store.

That is. Is so fun. I love that. I also wanted to ask, just generally, from a business perspective, what role do collaborations play in terms of the brand?

I think two things. The way I think about collaborations is can I do what they're doing? And if it's no, then I want to do it, because they are bringing an expertise and an audience that I don't innately have and I'm not going to touch. So for Gap, it was this iconic, essential brand, the most iconic. And for me, to be able to bring art and architecture and more design to those everyday pieces was a great opportunity. And not only that, but obviously exposes us to a whole new customer.

Okay. I want to ask for our audience who's trying to Break into fashion. What's the first thing that you would do? How would you get started today if you were to start all over again?

I would ask myself, what do I. What can I uniquely offer to the world? You know, like, what is the thing that I feel like doesn't exist and fashion needs that I can give? And then I would seek all the different paths that get me there. So I would seek designers that are similar and then I would make sure I focus a lot on making a product that people need. So many designers focus on collections and I think it's a waste at the beginning, like, oh, I need a collection. And the fact of the matter is people aren't going to buy a collection. You're just going to waste so much money developing product that's going to drop money you don't have. Make one viral product first and then build from there. But it goes against like the bourgeois fashion, you know, kind of mind, like where you need to create like a story. And I just don't believe that that's. Unless you're getting funding, that that's the way to go at the beginning. I think make something that you can give people that they need and they want, that's addictive and they're going to want to take a picture of do it yourself at the beginning and then keep building onto that product so that you're not, you know, just wasting so much money.

That's honestly such a big learning we had even with fia, where the best advice I think we got was do one thing, just one thing really, really, really well and just keep making that better before you spread your time and attention and energy too thin. And that was so important for us before we launched is we realized the thing that's working the best is our browser extension. So let's put all of our time, energy, design, development resources into making that as good as possible and focus our marketing on that instead of trying to add lots of features or do too many things. Because I think it's so easy to be distracted nowadays, especially because social media, like everyone's doing so much, you can get distracted so easily that I think that's really good advice to just focus on doing one thing like get make one viral product before you do other things.

It's so important. People ask how cult Gaia like is what it. And to me, it's so much it's about these viral products I've made. You know, it's one after the other and that's what reaches the customer. It's so dependent on that and also, you only have so much time to market. So if you have so many different ideas, it becomes really hard to say so many different things to the customer. Whereas when you have like one really good one or one really good product, first of all, your conversion is so much better. And second of all, you are focusing all your marketing and energy against one thing.

Okay, we have a quick lightning round before we wrap up. One material or design detail you're obsessed with right now.

Always. I'm obsessed with Clisse. Like, even what I'm wearing, this is a new version. Do you see? It's like a fish gill to me. It's super organic. I love the way it moves, the way it hits light. It's always different. So I'm constantly iterating in Plisse dream collaboration.

Anyone alive or dead.

Nike would be my dream collaboration because I feel like there's, you know, there's something really unique that I can bring to activewear. And if they don't want to do it, I'll do it myself.

You can rob one person's closet. Who would you Rob?

Iris at FEL 100%. Because she is such a legend. She wears the craziest things.

Finish this sentence. Col Gaia is for the woman who.

Isn'T afraid of being noticed.

Last piece of just general fashion style advice you would give to people.

I think wearing pieces with confidence goes a really long way. You got to be able to pull it off, don't follow trends. And I think you can find, like, great pieces in your closet if you reshop your own, your own wardrobe.

Well, Desmond, thank you for coming on the burnouts.

Of course. My pleasure.

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