Meet The Journalist Every Tech Billionaire is Afraid Of (Ft. Kara Swisher)

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Kara Swisher decided to leave the Washington Post to cover the Internet full time. That decision has made her one of the most respected and feared journalists on the beat. Holding those in the tech world accountable. Feel like you're violating people's privacy? One of the most outspoken critics of the tech industry and the billionaire moguls who are cozying up to the White House right now. I don't know a better musk translator as he got richer and richer, got crazier and crazier.

Very successful podcast Recode Decode Author of.

Burn Book Harris Rich I'm Tara Swisher and welcome to the Burnouts.

When you first started out your career, you were a student at Georgetown and you were correcting the paper, right? You were finding spell check errors.

What was happening was I was writing columns as a freshman. When I got there, I didn't want to stay at Georgetown because it was very anti gay, it was anti women and it was just a bad campus fit for me. I was gonna transfer. So someone came in and said, why don't you write for the student newspaper? You seem very funny. And so I started to write a column and it did really well right away. And so one of the things that drove me crazy was how sloppy they were in terms of how they edited and things like that. And so I just was always like this isn't right, this isn't right. And the job you're talking about was at the Washington Post. So that was later. I didn't like working for the student newspaper and started to do internships around Washington, which is super easy to do. And I suggest everybody does them in college. Just work, work in the workplace.

Favorite internship?

Probably the first one I did for A magaz for a magazine editor. And just whatever you do, that's kind of scut work, you know, kind of thing. And I recommend it to my kids and everything else, where you just get to do everything. Friend of mine is a son, is a. Is a page at the Senate. And I was like, what are you doing? He's like, getting water for senators. I'm like, good.

My dad was a page in Olympia. Yeah, he was. For years. Yeah.

Oh, I had no idea.

He talks about it way too much.

I think he has a.

He does a great job because you get to see how things work. And so I called the Washington Post because I wrote a story in the student newspaper that one of their reporters covered. And the reporter story was full of errors, and it drove me crazy. And so I called them. It was just a shitty little story. They send the worst people to cover things at Georgetown. And so I got in touch with the editor there, and he had me in and said, come down on the bus. And so I took the bus down from the gates of Georgetown, and I went up and told him he sucked. And he hired me. He hired me as not an intern. I was paid. I was a copy aide.

How much did they pay you?

Oh, God, nothing. My first real job was $14,000 a year, so not much, you know, just an hourly wage, probably. I would bet it was somewhere under $10 an hour. But I delivered mail. I worked at night. They called it Night newsaid. I did everything. I did everything. And while I was there, I started to see the opportunities of writing. And I got whatever writing I could get, even the lowest level writing, so that editors would get to know me and I'd say yes. And what happens is a lot of people at work who work there get themselves lazy, like this reporter did. And so I just volunteered for everything, like, whatever it was. Covering things on the mall during the summer for the Smithsonian Folk Festival. I'll go. I'll go. It was really hot. And so I did every job that I could and met everybody that I could and then eventually worked my way up there. I went to Columbia Journalism School in the interim, had another job. But I just did whatever it took, essentially, and didn't think anything was too good for me. I think a lot of people feel that.

I love this sense of, yeah, not feeling like anything's too good for you and then just consistently raising your hand. But I want to go back to the boldness of how you first got the job, which is by criticizing them. I think that that's something that's really interesting because, like, with the job market being so tough right now, we also don't encourage a lot of young women to be super bold about what they want. But where is the line when you're going for a new job of telling them, like, hey, here's things. I can improve at your company versus being careful because you actually do want the role.

The person I met, luckily, saw it as a compliment. Like, you could do better. Like, why did you. And he was right. He was like, you're right. This was really sloppy. And I was like, yeah, and they're a newspaper. And so it was out of great regard for the Washington Post. It was not that I thought they sucked. I thought they didn't suck. And then they did. And I was angry about their suckage. And so, you know, and he said, you think you could do it better? And I said 100 times, you know, seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Like, I was like, are you kidding me? Of course I could. And then he said, well, why don't you show me? And so that was that. Other times, it didn't work. I was. I was up for a job where it was like one of these airline magazine type of jobs, right? Like, writing for that. And I was very confident because I was a good writer. And the guy. It's always a guy, sometimes it's a woman. Said, you're very confident. And I'm like, yes. Like, what do you want me to say? Oh, no, thank you, sir. And so I just didn't. I go, yeah, I am. Cause I'm really good. And he was like, you shouldn't say that. And I said, it's factual, so I don't know what to tell you. And so sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes people find it amusing. Some people find it repugnant. I didn't get what I didn't get. And so at one point, when I didn't get an internship at the Post, I got it later. I got one later, after I went to Columbia, so I had the Columbia degree, which of course was ridiculous because I was the same person. And.

He said, when I didn't get it, I said, are you kidding me? I'm better than all these people. And.

He was like, you know, you gotta wait your turn. I'm like, I'm not waiting my turn. I'm like, why should I wait my fucking. I don't even understand what that means. And so. And I said, you know, someday I'm gonna be a really famous reporter, and you're gonna Be retired in an old folks home, I'll come visit you and say, see? And he would laugh. I'd be funny about it. I wouldn't be strident or I hate that word about women, actually. I wouldn't be mean about it. I'd be funny. I'm like, someday I'm gon be really famous and you're gonna, you know, be like being fed applesauce and I'm gonna maybe come visit you or maybe give you the time of day. Cause that's the kind of gal I am. And so they think it was funny and it was a truth to it. Right. I did it with John McLaughlin, who I worked for, who I turned in for sexual harassment. You know, we did it. I did it with everybody. I was like, someday.

Did you always think I'm gonna be famous in a very successful journalist?

Not journalist, but I thought I was gonna be something special.

I did.

My dad died when I was younger, so I didn't have him around. I had my mom who wasn't particularly helpful about my career or anything else really. So I kind of. My brothers and I are all really successful. And a lot of people think that when you have a parent who dies at a young age, you get very functional. And I think about my own, many children, we remove obstacles from their way a lot of the time and therefore they're surprised when they hit them. Right. And I had a lot of obstacles.

I want to talk about money. So when you went to Georgetown, who was paying for your tuition?

When my dad died, there was an insurance policy and so. And my grandparents had left me some money. And so I managed my money since I was very young, 18 years old. And so, yeah, what was left to me was in an account and I paid for college and handled all my finances from them. And I worked, I worked a lot. My grandparents left me a good sum of money, enough, definitely enough for college and to buy a house. And so I managed it, I invested it, I made sure I had enough. But I always had a job. I always felt like I'd like to have my own money. I bought my own moped when I was a kid. I bought, I paid, I did babysitting, I did this and I bought it myself. And so I like to always have control of money. I never felt comfortable with other people giving me money, and that's always been the case.

Are there any financial mistakes you've made or pieces of advice you have for young people who are managing their own money for the first time?

Well, I didn't take that job at Google when it was founded. I've been offered a lot of Internet jobs. Very early in the founding I was like, why do I want like I remember saying to the Bezos people when Amazon was founded, they wanted me to work there early. And I said, why would I want to work for you? I was like, because I'd be getting married in Venice right now. I guess I'm pretty good investor. I've been a good real estate investor. But money doesn't motivate me compared to other things that motivate. Mostly what motivates me is I like the job I'm doing, that I enjoy it. I wish money motivated me more, but it just doesn't. It just doesn't.

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Do you have any advice for people of like this is how you did it when you were younger?

I had jobs. I had jobs whether it was when I was younger and I babysat or I did photography in high school. I was a good photographer. I had a dark room and I took people's senior class pictures. Charged quite a bit for them, you know what I mean? And so I made a, I made a couple thousand dollars doing that and like five or six thousand dollars and that's enough for a summer, you know what I mean? I had summer jobs. I'm trying to think. I sold chip witches, I sold ice cream. I did a lot of freelance writing and then I worked at the Post I always worked somewhere where I had my own job and I paid for all my stuff. Yeah. So.

Yeah, because what I'm curious about is if you look at your business evolution, I think a lot of it now is oriented in owning your own ip. And you structured some very interesting deals.

I did.

So when did you start to learn to be more savvy?

Pretty early. Pretty early. One of the things that, especially with women, they try to make you feel as if you shouldn't ask for more. And certainly men do it all the time. And so, you know, I'd be in different negotiations. They're like, hey, just take a little less, and then we'll have a drink, we'll be friends. I'm like, I don't need any more friends. I have friends. You're not one of them. I would always be like, give me the fucking money. Like, give me more. I would always ask for more.

What's really helpful is if you can link what's being the revenue to you. And so I always did that. So it was rather explicit. And so it wasn't like, oh, we'll pay you this. I'm like, no, I made this and I'll take this portion of it. And so I was always very aware of what the revenue was. And I think a lot of reporters certainly aren't, but I think I probably learned that from tech people. They got what I really liked about tech, the tech business, is, say, in media, they gave you a salary. You don't know why you got that. You know, like. And you don't know what anyone else is making. And they try to keep that from you so that you don't have any. I think transparency is like, okay, I'm earning this versus my contribution here. And when you're in a tech scene, you do know your contribution, right? You're the founder or top engineer or whatever. And so I was always aware of what my contribution was and then asked for that, like, whatever it was, especially when I started to be more entrepreneurial. And like, at one point.

When we started all things D for Dow, I was an employee of Dow Jones. We made a couple million dollars the first year in profit. And I was like, we just made that and we didn't get anything. Like, the company kept the whole thing. And that wouldn't have existed without us. It was our idea that then became the thing. And they for some reason thought it was theirs. And I was like, this wouldn't, you know. And they're like, well, you're being paid as an employee. And I was like, well, what employee turns in millions of dollars in profit? Nobody at the time. And still all media companies were struggling. So this was a significant addition to their profits. And I think at one point we were 8% of net income. We're like, Mr. And Mrs. 8%. Media companies don't make a lot of money. And so it was really irritating. And so the second year, and I called Walt, who was doing it with me, and I said, did you get the flowers? Because I didn't get the fucking flowers. We gave them millions of dollars. So the next year we got a fee small. And the next year we said, we want a third, a third, a third. Or we're going to do it somewhere else. We're just going to go like, I don't believe it went for three years. The second year we should have said, it's not happening. And that's what we did. And so they struck you because they didn't think we would make as much money as we did. And later they're like, oh, we should have given you a raise. We're like, no. But then it was fair. Like, we made it and without our. I find something really.

Satisfying for me is that, like, whether it was all things D or whatever, I make people then work for me. So I create jobs for people. And that's a really great feeling from an idea. Walt and I were always proud that we employed, you know, 40 people for 20 years. Like, that's all those families. That's all those things. And they also worked really hard to make the product great, too. And so we really like that idea that you come up with an idea and then create economic opportunity for lots of people. I spend a lot of time advising people, both old and young, of how to be entrepreneurial. So it's a really. It's a nice feeling. Cause then you're in control of your destiny as opposed to other people just randomly. And they make things up. So it's like, you know, they do. Like, why is this person earning the same? It's always. Once you actually pull the transparency new way, you notice white guys make more. They do. You can look at the numbers. Like, it's really. And it's like, why precisely. Why, like, are they better? Cause you can entertain that maybe they're better. Probably not, right? They aren't. But that's because women. Whenever I manage people, which I don't. It's not my favorite thing to do. But I did always notice that men would ask for more undeservedly, and women would ask for less, which they deserved. It was always the case. And I'd often be like, ask for more. You can ask for more. And the men were like, I think one guy was. I was trying to fire, actually. And I said.

He'S like, I think I deserve a raise. I said, I think I should fire you. See? Interesting difference in our opinion about you. And he's like, well, I think I did this and this and this. And I said, I think you fucked up this, this, and this. I said, so what I'm doing right here. And I actually, it's the first time I was very honest with something. I'm like, what I'm doing right here is preparing to fire you, and you're not getting raised. That's definitely not happening. And it was so interesting. But his mentality was to ask for more.

I also think it's about learning to ask for the right thing things. When I look at the negotiations of our female employees versus our male employees, our male employees are so much better at understanding they should ask for more equity because they understand that that's where the real upside is.

If it is.

Yeah. If it is. Yeah. Versus only negotiating for pennies and dollars. Or if they are asking for a raise, it's like, 20, 30, 40,000. Not. Can I have $5,000 more?

No, it's true. I don't know what that is, and I hate to say that's the case, but it is. It really, truly is. You just have to understand what your leverage is and what your contribution is. And once that's. Make them explicit, because then it's just right there. Like, if I'm making this much money, this is how much I want of it. And it wouldn't exist without you. And one of the things that's, I think, very hard, especially for women, is willingness to walk away. Like, I think I'll leave then because I can make money elsewhere. And I think one of the attributes I have is I'm always willing to leave, and it's not a threat. I don't do it as a. Like, you know, I'm gonna leave now if you don't give me what I want. I never do that. I'm just like, okay, then I'll leave. Like. Cause I believe in myself and my own entrepreneurial. I believe in my record, and I believe I can do it myself. You have to be willing to walk away, and that's. And really mean it and believe in yourself.

What I'm really curious about is how did you make the decision to leave the Wall Street Journal? And then what Happened when Rupert Murdoch said that he would.

He was mad.

Yeah. He wouldn't let you take that IP with you.

I knew he wouldn't let me take the IP because IP is everything in media. But I offered to buy it, right? And I thought that I made a fair offer. And he wanted an enormous amount. 10 million. And then I. I jokingly said to them, I am like, I could buy fuckruper.com and start it there. And I think I will. Like, I didn't ever buy the. But I could. At the time I did check you could buy it. It was 10 or 12. It was. They were having a special on Fracturerubert.com.

They have a.

They have a specialist. It was like, what's valuable to you now? I would have liked to have that because then I would have the feed. I would have. It's an easier. But I'm again willing to start from zero. Like, I'm like, I've started from zero before. I've built it up before. It's easier to start from one number. Same thing. They kept my feed and gave it to someone else. And they're like, a successful show. I'm like built on someone else's feed. And I made a stink about it. Cause I was like, how can you do that? Like, how can you pretend you were successful when you weren't on your own? And so I kind of like starting from zero because then you know if it was you or not. And one of the things. When I was at the post, there was a particularly bad guy who would steal all my ideas. This is something everyone happens to everybody in their career.

How old were you when was this?

In my 20s. And I was full of ideas, right. I'm always like. And he would always steal my ideas. And it was. So I stopped telling him things, right? Like initially you're like, assume people don't do that. And he did it. And I said, you know what? You can have it. I have a million ideas and you don't have any. Like, fine, it's easy for me. Like, I can. And it was a good feeling. Cause I took back control rather than be victimized by that. I was like, got it. Clocked it. Understand people do that. It was a good lesson. And then I was like, I can think of them all day long and you can't. And so. And he's in the same fucking place.

Really?

Yeah. He stayed in the same fucking place. Of course he did. He didn't have any good ideas.

Interesting. And what about your new deal? You decided it was a 70%, 30% profit split. Why'd you decide to do that?

Because, honestly, it should be 100%. No, it shouldn't be anyone that you do a deal with. And VOX happens to be a great partner, by the way. We love working with them. It's a great working environment. They're great people. They do their work really well. You have to sort of evaluate who you like to work with. Then the second part is what? Like, anybody, and this is not VOX or anybody else, is like, okay, I'm paying a lawyer. What? And for what am I getting? What's the service I'm getting for whatever I'm doing? And then you try to figure out, could I get it somewhere else? Could I do it myself? Could I hire someone? So one of the things Scott and I did was a market check. Like, we went around and talked to people and what are the ins and outs? And there were things VOX wanted that we were willing to give them that was good, better for them. We were like, okay, if you do this, we think in the market, you have to be knowledgeable about what the market is. It's worth this in the market. Why are you getting more? But I do that with my agents. I didn't use an agent from our podcast deal because I was like, what am I paying you millions of dollars for? They're like, cause we're your agents. I'm like, no. And we offered them a certain amount of money, and of course they like to work on a percentage basis. If you understand the underlying value and you understand the market, you know how much you should pay for something. Right? And people frequently overpay. They don't as much underpay, but they definitely overpaid. So I'm like, this is what it's. This is the value of it in the market, and this is what I'm willing to pay you. And if you know what the market is paying, you can know what you should pay people. And then you're like, look, this is what everyone else is being paid. I'm not gonna pay you more. And so that was why we did that.

I wanna change and go into, like, your relationship with tech, too. Cause I feel like you were the first journalist to be like, okay, let's pay attention to this. Let's start doing this conference.

Yeah.

And you talk a lot about manchilds, basically with money and power. And I think we see that so much in the administration today. I'm curious, out of all the people you've interviewed, like, who has changed the most once they got access to power or money.

There's a couple people. I mean, it depends. Some people start off irritating, like Bill Gates, and grew up and became more mature and became more interesting and had a wider perspective. That was great to see that happen. At one point, I was with.

We were interviewing Melinda, and I was standing backstage with Bill, and she was so smart. I'm like, I like you 10% more. And it was really funny.

And then I happen to be married to someone he liked. He said, well, I like you 10% more. Because he was always trying to top people. But, you know, people that progress, I appreciate. And certainly he has. Mark Cuban's another person. Steve Ballmer also. What a jerk. But then he's kind of charming now. And of course, the bar is. He's like, you like me now? I'm like, the bar is low. Unfortunately, a lot of people go the opposite direction or they don't grow at all, really. They never progress. And, you know, I put Mark Zuckerberg in that category. I would put Elon Musk, clearly. But he's got personal problems. He's got alleged drug problems. But it's very clear what's going on there. And, you know, they go backwards as they get wealthier. You know, there are deleterious effects of wealth, which is that people kiss up to you, they agree with you, you're always right. And unless you have a very strong constitution, you can't.

Resist that. And so a lot of them just. They live in these ever smaller worlds of enablers, you know, and sometimes it ends badly, like with Tony Hsieh, who was at Zappos. Lovely guy, but became more and more addicted to drugs, drinking. People around him became less and less good. I mean, it's a classic story.

It's not a bunch of yes men.

Yes, a bunch of yes people, really. And so, you know, it ends tragically for them. In his case, he died because of his. Well, lots of reasons, but he had mental problems. Nobody got him the help he needed, and he really basically killed himself, if you think about it, the way he behaved. And so a lot of people end up like that. Most of them do, actually. They become these sort of. They live in these little bubbles, and everyone tells them everything is great, and that's that, and that's where they live. And so those people I don't talk to anymore, I do talk to Gates, I talk to Cuban, I talk to. You know what I mean? Like, and they're willing to accept feedback, which is, I think, you know, I don't do it for my pleasure. Or my entertainment. It's like, I don't agree with you on that. And same thing in media, people. You know, there are those who can take criticism and there are those who just can't. And I think as you become wealthier, money is sort of the way it happens. But more powerful, you tend to get that way. Which is kind of ironic that they were so obsequious to Trump. Here are the most powerful people on earth being obsequious to Trump. What? Like really, what's the money for if not to say fuck you? What's the point of having fuck you money if you can't say fuck you? And look at Elon. I'm apologetic of the things I tweeted. Has he ever apologized to Paul Pelosi for tweeting heinous things about gays? Has he ever apologized to all these people he called names? No, he apologizes cuz it's in his financial self interest to do so with Trump. And he's worried about the existential crisis to his businesses. And so that's even worse. You're like, really? You can't just stay with the fuck you? Like just stick with it. Even though, by the way, he did go over the line. He did, but probably he's not inaccurate about a lot of things he was saying.

And you used to be close with Elon. When did that relationship kind of shift?

It was interesting because I always had. He was always. He became crazier. I don't know what to say. He just got crazier and crazier. And as he got richer and richer, you know, he had a lot of enablers around him and he shed all the people that disagreed with him, like a Sam Altman or Reid Hoffman. He had good relationships with people who would push back on him, then he wouldn't, didn't want the pushback. And that was that. It wasn't just me, it was a lot of people. And he got mad about something. I tweeted like someone in the Post had written a piece saying.

I had been talking to him about his acquisition of Twitter for a while. And I was explaining some of the business things. We were doing live Twitters, we were getting advertisers for them. And I was telling him, look, look, if you did this right, you could do rather well. This is how much we're making. I was explaining because he wasn't really familiar with media. And so I said, look, we could make a couple million dollars on Twitter if we did it right. Like if you made it into a YouTube that was, you know, if you sort of made it an event space and everything else. I was like, I don't know if it'll work. But we did, you know, cost us nothing. And we got $100,000 from this advertising. So we were talking back and forth and he seemed fine. And then sometimes he would have these little fits every now and again previously, but they all did. So it wasn't a new fresh thing for me to experience. But he. There was a Washington Post story about Crimea where he was geofencing.

Stuff at Starlink and someone had. I had advocated that people pay him because he was providing a service like we pay Lockheed, we pay. And he was like, we shouldn't do it for free. I'm like, He's 100 fucking percent right. Why don't we just pay him and then you can utilize the guy stuff any. Why. Why is he deciding? It's like, if you buy a product, you should be able to. The army should decide, the Navy, whatever.

Our.

Our military should decide, not him. Like, that's terrible for some random guy to decide. Like he's just gonna sell or he can decide whether to sell it or not to the military. That's his choice. So. But he can't decide where to deploy it. I was like, this is really fucked up. And so largely because I worried about the effect, the impact of the Russians on him. I was worried. Lots of people are Chinese. The r. It felt like there was some weird situations going on there. And so there was a piece in the Post and someone said we should pay him or something like that. And I said, we should absolutely pay him. And then there was a quote that said, elon's gonna Elon. Which is like, it's not a negative.

It's true.

That's right. He is. He's a very personality driven person. And I said, elon's gonna Elon. That's the truth. And I think that's all I wrote.

It's the truth. It's like. So I wasn't. And his brother actually resp. No good deed goes unpunished. I go, absolutely. Giving Starlink was a really good deed. But he got all messed up because of doing this. And his brother was very pleasant. It was weird. And then he emailed me, which I never look at my emails. So I was like, oh. So I didn't look for weeks. And.

He wrote, you're an asshole. That was it.

Did you ever respond?

I was like, what are you fucking talking about? I wasn't insulting you here. I think he was under. Who Knows it was three in the morning. It was the same thing. He gets into a spin at whatever. He must have read it the way some. One of his enablers probably was trying to get an advantage. He didn't want people to. I don't know, I don't care. Like.

An alleged drug addict's problems are not my problem. Like if they're gonna. So. And then he started doing things that were really heinous and I was critical. Like the thing about Paul Pelosi, when he got beaten, he said it was a gay love triangle. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, you know the damage you can do to people. Disgusting. It was disgusting. And then he kept going. You know, whether it was people with mental diseases or.

Et cetera, it just kept going. And then it was. Then he was sort of affiliating with white supremacists. And you're like. And then all this nonsense about free speech and then he'd shut people down and you'd be like, oh, you're just a fucking liar. So I was very critical. And then I became very critical, which he didn't like. I thought, why not? What the hell?

But that's a point of journalism and a free media is. It needs to be critical.

And I feel like they've tried to.

There's been a lot of efforts to take away the credibility of media too, which fascinates me.

I think he's got a parcel of problems that have nothing to do with anyone but himself. So. And you know, he's sort of the classic tale of, you know, Icarus or Howard Hughes or whatever. It's not gonna end well.

And do you think that this is.

Unique to tech in any way? Cause, you know, you focus really on these tech entrepreneurs and stuff. But I think about men who have money in other space, like finance. Like Warren Buffett is an incredible example of like someone who's wealthy, who's actually a good guy.

Well, he's a unicorn.

He's a unicorn.

That's fair.

He is a complete unicorn. Do you think that tech kind of self selects?

No, I just think they're the current rich people. Like, you know what I mean? The current winners. Right. I mean, I'm sure this was the same with the train barons or the blank barons, whatever it happens to be. I think wealth is largely deleterious, especially for another generation. Right. And so undeserved.

Success is something people should know. Why they were successful doesn't mean. Look, Rupert Murdoch's father was very wealthy and he took that small business in Australia and made it into a global business. Like that was him. Right. I grew up, I would say, in a very good situation, but I took what I had and made it into something bigger. And so that doesn't mean that you have to be poor and scrappy to make it. It doesn't at all. There's lots of businesses like that where it's very. Zuckerberg. Great business person, terrible morals, but great business person. And so he took something and made it into something right and made the right decisions. I think what happens is. You ever watch Succession? I did the podcast for them and one of the things that was really interesting to me and I talked to the writer about this, Jesse Armstrong, is their worlds got smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and more and more. I call them cashmere prisons. Like they went from the plane.

To a car to a boat to a. You know what I mean? And they live in these bubbles that are difficult to get out of. And I think it's hard for many, many people when everyone's agreeing with you. You don't know why your friends are your friends and even they don't know why they're your friend. Like, it's nice, right? And so it creates a. It's very hard to have really clear friendships in that regard or people that push back on you. I often, I look a lot at people's kids. Like I went out with very well known tech moguls kids. I took them out for dinner this week and the kid was wonderful. And I was like, good job. I wrote him. I'm like, you're such a jerk, but your kid's great. I'm gonna assume it's your wife, but I was joking. But, you know, I look at the kids and how they turn out and.

I wanna circle back to Mark Zuckerberg. I loved your iconic interview with him where you grilled him on privacy when he was 26. He couldn't stop sweating.

There were several bad ones for him and I.

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Why do you think that even though you're a hard ass, why do you think people always want to do an interview with you if. Even if they might be embarrassed?

Because they're not hard. They're. They're hard. Look, one of the people I interviewed a lot was Steve Jobs and he liked, he always said they're fair. Like, if he's a smart person, does he want to be blicked up and down all day? I doubt it. He's smart enough and like, right? He doesn't like that. I think smart people like smart questions. And if you actually take apart the interviews, they aren't tough. I just ask the direct question. That's different. Not like, how come you suck so much? Those aren't the questions I ask. I'm like, you are responsible for privacy across the globe. Explain to me why this isn't a violation of privacy. Explain to me your theory, and I need them to explain themselves. Often Zuckerberg could not explain himself because he hadn't thought of it. The more famous interview, I think that one was more famous. But when we were arguing about antisemitism, like, he didn't know what he was doing. And by the interview you could see he didn't, hadn't thought about it. But he had such an effect, an impact. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, you don't even take the time to understand the issue. And so what I was trying to get at that interview was he was ignorant and he had power. And that was a real problem for me. That is a real problem when you have power and you are lazy or ignorant or sloppy or stupid. And that to me is, I won't put up with that, especially when you have that much impact. And I kept saying, the more you, you know, when he was saying Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. He just didn't do the work. And you're sort of like, there will be more antisemitism if this continues and you will be directly responsible. And for some reason, someone like him, he always, he always tries to. He's a polluter and he pretends he's not polluting. It's like Trump, he's an arsonist. And then he tells us, look, I put out the fire. I'm like, you started the fire. That's all. I just point out the obvious. And if they're gonna take responsibility, the ones I like are the ones that take responsibility. I think with Mark in that interview, I was like, I know what I studied propaganda and the Holocaust and anti Semitism and I know where this is gonna end. Cuz we have some history. Like I know where this goes.

Of course Elon bought Twitter. Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post. If you were a journalist today, you were just starting out, what advice would you give?

I tell people to go independent if they're very talented and they have something to say. And you can really, you know, if you can figure out what, if you're offering something people want. There's a real fracturing of media right now. But a lot of these smaller entities are doing an amazing job. And I don't think that can continue forever. But the idea of these giant media companies is kind of over. I mean, everybody makes media right now. Not everyone makes good media. And so it's going to shake itself out in some fashion. But you know, I encourage someone like Casey Newton to create platform where he was earning. He was at Vox and I was like, well, you could make ten times the money if you work. If you work. And so he provides a service that people really like. And so he's making a lot of money. And so, you know, I advise people, if they have a great idea to do it. That's what I always advise for the big companies. It's not good. It's not good. And the Post is. It's affection from being delivering the mail. I delivered the mail there. I have an affection for that place. I started my career there. I think it's a great brand. I don't know how you couldn't figure some financial way to fix it. Making it smaller, making it like, I have some ideas and I would like to have a chance to do that. But he prefers to own it. Cause he's a rich guy and it's like owning another Bugatti for him. Right?

And it's a microphone also for his beliefs if they're not doing, like the editorial page for.

Except he's not very smart. So it's the belief. Beliefs are not very interesting.

I just want to end this on a note of. For other young people who want to pursue a career like yours, what do you think are the best decisions that you made? And how would you advise other people to do the same?

One of the things that's important is to really do your homework. I think. I know, like, I spent a lot of time not understanding it before I say something. And so I think. Doing your homework. I was a reporter for a long time, and I spent a lot of time getting it right. Right. And so I think people should really. It's very easy in this information age. And I do it myself. I was staring at, like, I forget what I was looking at on Instagram. It was so good. It was cooking. I like light cooking. And I was like, what? It was an hour later, I was like, why am I looking at chopping of vegetables so long? It's really appealing whatever it happens to be. I happen to like watching cooking. I always did since I was a kid. But, you know, whether it's makeup or dancing or whatever it happens, or cool, whatever, it's a very addictive way to waste your time. And I think one of the things that I've always noticed is people that really spend time doing the work tend to be successful. You can be successful not doing the work, but you can't stay successful. And so one of the things is just really understanding, educating yourself. And.

Someone'S like, how are you so successful? And I'm like, I work harder than you do. I do. I work harder. I don't know what else to say, whether, you know, and that applies if you're a cook. If you're a ditch digger, you're just better at it. You just work harder at it. And so I don't think that goes away in a digital age. I think you really find something where you can excel. And I think that's. People don't do that. They don't think enough about, like, what's your angle? It's like a product. What are you doing that is different than other people and what are you offering that's different? There's three things I apply to every single product I make, right? And I think about it a lot, which is, one.

It'S useful to people. Like, lately, for some reason, people have been coming up to me and going, thank you so much. You've helped me so much. It's Because Scott and I refuse to be cowed by any of this. We're like, no, this is what here. We're gonna work our way through it and be reasonable people. So be useful to people. Whatever it happens to be. Whether you teach them how to cook, whether you teach them, whatever it is, be useful. Give them something that's useful or an insight that they didn't have, something that they can use in their lives or it makes them feel better. Whatever it happens to right now pivots and we make people feel better mode. We're funny. We're also useful. We give good insight. Secondly, be entertaining. Or I don't mean like a stupid way, but interesting entertaining. Like, try harder to, like, deliver your message in ways that are just more entertaining, more interesting, funny, could be sad. It just depends. Just something that holds people's attention and then make something that nobody else can make, whether it's AI or another person. Can't copy it. Person or AI can't copy. Like, you can't get this unless you get it from us. You can't copy it. You can't make it. You can't. Like, without us, you can't do it. And so that's being unique. And it's really hard to do that. But if you're talented enough, you really. If you have those three things, every product you make will be great. You're filling a need for people in some fashion in a way that. And the last thing lately, I would say I make things that make people feel better. I know it sounds crazy because I'm known as, like a tough person, but people do feel better after listening. They understand better, they feel smarter, or they feel better or they've been moved in some way. And that to me is a really. Is a gift to people. It's like that when you make a chocolate that's delicious, I really feel better after eating that, or I like that, or I don't know, whatever you happen to do that makes people feel better. I think in this day and age, people need to connect. And if you connect with people and connect them and give them something that's helpful to them, no digital product will win over you.

I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming.

Thank you. You guys are great.

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