Rainn Wilson Reveals Why Playing Dwight on The Office Didn’t Make Him Happy

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Dwight is my career. I got to play one of the most iconic characters on one of the most kind of important and iconic comedies of all time. You know I'm at Dwight Trute from the Office. Believe it or not. This is going to sound crazy. While doing the greatest job of my life, I spent a lot of time unhappy with myself and my career. And isn't that kind of confusing? It was always about something more. Can I just get a little bit more? And we're kind of wired that way. You'll never find satisfaction and connection outside of yourself. So that's been my life's work is to try and heal that imbalance, whatever it is. So that's my call to you burnouts is to figure that stuff out. Hi, this is Rainn Wilson from one burnout to another. Welcome to the Burnouts.

Honestly, I would love to first start with of course your iconic role in the Office. And I know you talked about you were actually unhappy for a lot of the filming. And so I want to dial in on what did that role look like in your life and how did it affect your career?

Well, you know, Dwight is my career. Like let's, let's face it, I got to play one of the most iconic characters and one of the most kind of important and iconic comedies of all time that's going to be on my tombstones. Like the guy who played Dwight the beat farmer. The beat farmer, the paper salesman. I mean it was, it was amazing. Like I'm so grateful. It bought me a house, it paid off my student loans. It got me a real career. I got to travel, do movies, meet people because of it, start, you know, digital media businesses because of it, follow my passions because of It, I'm so grateful. But I think the storyline that like I was miserable while filming the Office was a lot of like YouTube catchphrases to get people to click. And that's not the story. The story is, isn't it amazing that while doing the greatest job of my life and I'll never have a greater job, I spent a lot of time unhappy with myself and my career and where I was. Like, isn't that too bad? And isn't that kind of confusing? Like, you think like, if you had talked to me at, in my 20s when I was kicking around New York City here trying to get theater job, that, hey, you're going to be on this Emmy nominated television show, you're going to get Emmy nominations, you're going to make tons of money and be super famous. What do you think? I would have been like, oh my God, that's incredible. But when I was there, it was always about like something more like, can I just get a little bit more? Can I, can I have a bigger movie career? Can I get a bigger studio deal? Can I have more commercial endorsements? Can I have more doors open to me? Why am I not getting X, Y, Z? Why am I not getting. And I think it's just a fundamental kind of concept of the human condition that we never have enough and always want more. And we're kind of wired that way. And part of my spiritual practice is a gratitude practice of like, I have everything that I need right now. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to strive to make a bigger difference or to improve my life in certain ways. But I have enough. I am enough. I don't need to be in this constant mode of striving.

When did you learn that?

It's been a long journey. It's not like something like I achieved enlightenment and there was like a chorus of angels that went, oh. And I realized, oh, I am enough. You know, it's been therapy, it's been 12 step, it's been, you know, meditation practice, it's been reading, learning, studying, talking to people and kind of, you know, some from before the office, through the office, past the office, kind of understanding, having a deeper connection to the real human condition, which is we are not satisfied.

Yeah.

You know, the, the Buddha called it, you know, said life is suffering. But the Sanskrit word was dukkha, which is like anxious discontent. So life is anxious discontent. You notice that?

Yeah.

You know, like every day is like, why didn't through and this person didn't write me back and why did this date not go as I hoped it would, and this deal fell apart. And I wanted this in this. And so we're in this constant mode of, like, dissatisfaction. And once you realize that and you can detach from it, that's when you can find some measure of peace. I mean, it's a constant battle of the ego, clutching, grasping. Those are the things that create kind of unhappiness and imbalance.

I think that that's so true, especially as a founder. I feel like that's always what we're focused on. We're never like, oh, well, that launch went so well. Like, that was so good. We're like, no, this KPI, let's focus on retention. How can we improve this? Wait, why did we not launch, you know, why did we not lock, you know, that brand deal? And I feel like it's kind of like the hecatonic treadmill of, like, okay, well, once I get this thing now I need to get this thing now, I need to get this next thing. And I think it's. It's tough. And this is something me and Sophia talk a lot about personally is like, this idea of, like, talking about to what degree do we let that go versus allowing ourselves to kind of be in this state, at least throughout our 20s, because maybe that's what drives the business forward. Because a lot of what we're doing, I mean, it's not healthy to be up at 3am it's not healthy. Like, some of the practices that we have and the way that we work is not healthy. But that's the only way to start a business. So I think that there's this balance I always feel of, like. And I. I talked to my. Argue with my mother about this, like, should I go to therapy and resolve this now? Should I wait till my 30s and then deal with that? Because does it. Is there a way to have this kind of healthy satisfaction while still moving as fast as I want to move? Even if moving as fast as I want to move isn't necessarily actually beneficial for my own, like, physical health?

You got the wrong guest on your show.

Shoot. We need to have the Buddha himself.

Get into getting the therapy. Now. I think the. Listen, how do you find that balance? You want to. You want to be an entrepreneur. You want to. You guys are trying to shake things up, do something different, like make an impact, and that's great. And you have outside of the box ideas, and you should. You should follow that. You're not just trying to start. Like, I want to make a business that produces the most amount of cardboard boxes possible. Like you're trying to influence an industry. Right. So I think that's important and that is a mission. And I think this all goes down to my next book, which I'm just starting to formulate right now, about the meaning of life and how can you corral vision and mission with meaning. But if you just have vision and mission without meaning, you'll go off the rails. The problem is, as you talked about health, so the problem is if you do that in your 20s, you're going to break down your body, you're going to break down your mental health. You might fall into addiction, you might fall into kind of like unhealthy codependent relationships. You might not have the deep meaningful relationships that you want to have. Maybe you want to have marriage and a family, maybe you don't. It's, it's difficult if you're getting up at 3am and burning yourself out as a burnout to, to find those healthy connections that, that you need. So I think I, I would hope for the two of you that you can find a way to, to balance those two impulses towards entrepr.

Of a. A deep, more grounded understanding of what creates, you know, wellness, you know, what creates kind of a deep life satisfaction.

I think it's so funny that we're talking about this because I, I was watching this video the other day and it basically was saying what you have right now was once your idea of your dream life and yet you are still miserable. And that's, that's, that's what we were.

Talking about with the office. Exactly.

Because it's, your life is constantly a moving target. And so once you realize that, you need to understand it's only like true deep self satisfaction of like the person you are on the inside. If you can find self peace with that, that's where you're going to find happiness. Like if you feel like you're chasing meaning and not artificial, arbitrary targets that are always going to be moving, like that is the only way you're ever going to be happy. Otherwise it's like you, all of a sudden your goal is okay, I want a hundred thousand. Now the next goal is a million, then it's 10 million. Like if your life is just a series of goals, you're never going to be happy because the goal is always going to be moving. And I think I'm curious for you because you also, when you were an actor in your 20s, you were talking about, you were struggling and you were chasing things and then you landed this huge breakout role. And I am very fascinated by the fact that you would think that would solve all your problems. You're making money now. You're famous. You think that is that no matter what, like, people are faced with this deep dissatisfaction, no matter, like, what goal.

They'Re able to achieve, Sophie, you'll never find satisfaction and connection.

Outside of yourself. So it's funny that you mentioned this, because my producer, Kartik, is sitting over there in the corner off camera from the Soul Boom podcast. And there was recently this Office fan convention, so they rented this convention hall. They had a bunch of stars of the office meet and greet with fans, panels, signing autographs, taking pictures and stuff like that. And it was really fun. And he was witnessing this, and all of these people. Like, that show meant so much to me. It changed my life. It saved my life. I had mental health issues. I would watch the Office over and over again. And you understand. You saved my life. You made my life. I'd hear this from dozens and dozens of people over the course, hundreds of people over the course of the day, and he was like, doesn't this do it for you? You know, hearing from all these people that, you know, you made such a big impact in. In their lives, doesn't that, like, doesn't that make it all worthwhile? And I was like, no, it doesn't. Because if I don't feel that inside, it doesn't matter. I could have eight and a half million people in a line that lasts, you know, four and a half weeks come up to me and say, thank you. You're the best. You're my favorite actor. You changed my life. It wouldn't. It wouldn't matter, because I have to feel that inside. And the fact is, is I spent most of my life not feeling that way, not feeling that I was enough, that I was worth it.

So that's been my life's work, is to try and heal that imbalance, whatever it is. So that's my. My call to you burnouts is to. Is to. Is to figure that stuff out. And that's one of the reasons I really love Buddhism, and I like to study the world's faiths and relig. But. But Buddhism really is a path of meditation, contemplation, gratitude, and acceptance and an understanding of how the ego works. That is an amazing path towards kind of wellness and cohesion.

And walk me through, like, in a week. What are your kind of spiritual practices? How many days a week are you meditating? What does that look like?

So I meditate Pretty much every day. I'd say five or six days out of the week. There's some days I miss it and I feel it. To me, meditation is like going to the gym. It's like, you never feel like going to the gym. You're like, oh, I don't want to go. I hate it today. I'm not going to do it. But then you go and you're like, wow, I'm so glad I went. And it makes your day, what, 10, 20% better because you went to the gym. So meditation kind of works that same way for me. One of the things I talk about in the Soul Boom book is, to me, the importance of prayer. Because I think meditation by itself is not enough. And I understand a lot of people have problems with a higher power and a God for a very good reason. You know, religious systems are very corrupt and broken and often seem outdated, outmoded, judgmental in ways that are really damaging. But to call out from the heart for help, for gratitude, for. For giving a giant thank you and a big, like, awesome curiosity filled wow with wonder of, like, I mean, look at us right now. Here we are having this conversation. This is incredible. Look at our, our language skills, and we look into each other's eyes, and we're talking about how to make our lives richer and deeper. Look at the miracle of consciousness. You know, just the fact that that light is coming into our eyes right now, into our brain stems, and we're registering each other. And hopefully we'll carry this conversation throughout the rest of the day, throughout the rest of our lives. The people that were recording it is a miracle. And other people can tap into it and maybe glean one or two pieces of wisdom and peace and solace and guidance and inspiration. I mean, that's a miracle. It's a frigging miracle. So to just, even if you don't believe in God, to just put something out into the. To the universe to say thank you, this is amazing. I'm acknowledging the incredible miraculous beauty of consciousness itself. I mean, that's a prayer. And acknowledging something's beauty, something's sacredness, something's specialness, that's a prayer. So that goes hand in hand, I think, with, With a meditation practice. I also like to read from the holy writings of world faiths, especially my faith, which is the Baha' I faith. And I try and read something in the morning, in the evening, from my faith tradition, because we can learn from the wisdom of others. A lot of people do it on Instagram now. That's like roomie quote of the day on Instagram. And I would say maybe dig a little deeper, but that's a good starting point too.

I'll wait for your spam account. That's just your quotes from Bahaalu. I'll wait and I'll be there and I'll be a first follow and then I'll be like dig deeper, dig deeper. Nice.

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I'm so glad you said this because I, I really related to your story of talking about looking around and saying, oh my God, like how beautiful that we're even present right now. That light is shining. Because I remember so vividly reading the Overstory when I was in high school. And that was back when I was just studying for the SATs. I was just so laser focused on. I need to get into a good.

You're talking about the book, the Overstory.

Yeah.

Richard Powers about the trees.

Yes.

Yeah.

Beautiful book. It was so beautiful. But I remember I was reading it and I'm like in the library and then I'm telling myself, oh, I need to like keep studying. Like, what am I doing right now? But then I looked outside and I looked at the trees and I was like, I need to be grounded. I. I'm getting so lost in the rat race and so ahead of myself. I'm forgetting I'm literally like a human being in a beautiful forest in a library right now. And I am so disconnected from nature and also disconnected from gratitude. And it was such an important. I think about that moment all the time. Whenever I feel extremely stressed and anxious. I'm always like, I need to just remember, like, I am like still I just need to be still present and grateful. And it also reminds me of. I'll never forget when we first met. It was at the TED Countdown dinner at Emma Watson's house, and I was seated next to you. And I remember at the time just thinking, oh, my God, I'm sitting next to Dwight from the office. Like, this will be so fun. This will be so funny. And then we ended up having this really deeply meaningful conversation about how spirituality and caring about climate change are so deeply interconnected, because it takes so much to look beyond your own, like, privilege and your own kind of desires and to think about the environment and to think about the world around you and how that's really connected with spirituality. And it was just so interesting to me that, like, you had all this depth and substance and you were still able to play this really humorous, incredible character that I remember in high school brought me so much joy when I was coming home and I was stressed and I just needed to unwind, and I wanted to talk about the art of reinvention, because for me, I was so struck. Like, this person who I always look to for so much laughter and joy also was able to have such a touching, beautiful conversation with me about the meaning of life and God and spirituality and why I felt like that was so important to my climate activism. So what has that experience been like for you? Of, like, have you ever had to overcome people's initial kind of thoughts of you in terms of, like, playing this character and then now using your platform and being such an incredible advocate for mindfulness and spirituality?

Yeah.

Great, great question, you know, and you told me you were going to ask a question along those lines. As we were kind of getting ready and sitting down in here, and I was thinking about all the chapters of my life and, you know, every time I wander around New York, because I was. I moved to New York when I was 20, and I left when I was, like, 34. And, you know, I became an adult here. I grew up here. You know, I came of age here. So every time I'm walking around every block, I have memories. You know, on Walker, right down the street over here, my acting teacher had a little theater company, and we would go see his amazing plays, like, in this crazy loft in the back of this industrial building. And it was amazing theater, Some of the best theater I've ever seen in my life. And, yeah, so I started as a theater actor and I simply wanted to do plays. I just fell in love with drama school and doing drama. I went to nyu, trained as an Actor. And then I just. I wanted to make a living. And then I realized, oh, I'm gonna have to do some film and TV if I'm ever gonna pay off my student loans or have any money in the bank. Cause theater only pays 700 a week. How am I gonna make that work? And so then it. Eventually, the show that we did in New York, we took to la, this comedy show, and I got an agent out there and manager and started working in TV and film. So chapter one is like theater. Chapter two is like working in TV and film. Chapter three is hitting the office and hitting this jackpot of, you know, a show that went for nine seasons. Not only that, like, a show that's acclaimed, that people loved getting to play an amazing character on that show. I mean, it. It's. It's like hitting, you know, triple zeros on the roulette wheel, like, three times in a row. That's how fortunate we all were to be on that show. And. And then I. From that, I got to do a bunch of movies, which was really cool. I got to do a bunch of career stuff and did some other TV after the Office that. Shows that didn't really happen. Shows like Backstrom, that was on Fox, and Utopia, that was on Amazon. People didn't really watch some movies that didn't really hit. And. And that's fine. That's. That's. That's how it goes. Some. Some things I've gotten to do have been really fun since then. And as my interest in kind of spiritual paths heated up and my interest in kind of like, spiritual tools for mental health, I just started putting more and more of my attention in that realm and in that field. And, you know, two years ago, it came out with this book, Soul Boom, and now the Soul Boom Podcast. And, you know, it. It's. It. It's incongruent for people. Like, wait, the guy who played the weirdo on the Office, Why is he talking about God? That is the. That's the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. But. But to me, it's all one. And that's what I realized is, is I am good at playing weird characters. I'm a. I'm a. I had a weird upbringing and offbeat upbringing, and I'm a strange and an offbeat guy, and I can play these characters and make people laugh. And that's an expression of the divine, because I believe that art is an expression of the divine. It's creating beauty. It's telling stories, it's making Something where before there was nothing. It' bringing stuff to light, to life, making people's lives better and richer. This is a divine impulse, and if that's through comedy, fine. And as I kept going with it, I realized, like, we're in the midst of this incredible mental health epidemic that is just devastating people, especially in their teens and twenties, but people of all ages, and there are spiritual tools that can help with this, and it's important to be having these conversations both in the book and on the podcast. And, yeah, so now I still act, I still audition. I'm still trying to develop shows and. And movies and. And I really enjoy that, and I will always enjoy doing that, but I'm really, truly impassioned by having these conversations. And I guess this is another reinvention. This is my newest chapter is like, the.

Kind of the fun spirituality guy and mental health conversation, man. And I hope that people who like the Office will accept that about me. And for the most part, they. They really have.

You know, I mean, this is personally my favorite chapter.

I like this chapter a lot.

You do?

Yes.

You like it better?

Okay, this is an offbeat question, but I'm curious. Like, do you think now in the age of like. Like, cancel culture, like, I feel like we've gotten a little bit too offended by comedy when comedy should offend you, do you think the Office would still succeed, or do you think they would have caught a ton of the jokes or it would have gotten a ton of, like, pushback?

I think if the Office came out, even though you have, and essentially it's the reason the show works, is because Michael Scott is a total boob and a buffoon who says the most outrageous things without realizing it. So you forgive him because you also love him at the same time. And Dwight is a similar kind of buffoon, A different buffoon, but doing similar things. So.

But nowadays, I don't know that that would fly.

Did you guys ever get to write your own jokes for some of it? Or, like, was it all scripted, or would it ever. Like, is there any moments you're like, oh, yeah, that went off script?

Oh, yeah, we. We improvised a ton, and we came up with a lot of. In fact, I love it when people say, like, oh, my favorite part of the Office, or my favorite line is something that. That I came up with.

You're like, yeah, I got in trouble for that one. And that was the best line indeed.

What was your favorite, like, line or blooper from the Office?

I. I don't know if it's my Favorite. But the one that's popping into my head right now is I did the. An episode called the Initiation where I take Ryan to Dwight's beet farm and.

I'm having him plant a seed. And I say, I said to him, I just improvised. I was like, just as you are planting this seed in the ground, I am planting my seed in you. And then without missing a beat, BJ just goes, I don't think you know what you're saying, Dwight.

And like, those kind of things bring me. Great unscripted. I just improvised that.

Yeah.

So but there's tons of lines like that. And we get to. Because we get to embellish some of the greatest comedy writing ever. I mean, the writing staff was amazing and the scripts were brilliant. And then if we could bring an extra two or three jokes per episode on our own, it was, it was, it was win, win all around. And they would really make and shape the shows in the editing room. And that's one thing I really loved about Greg Daniels, our showrunner, is he would have scenes edited a number of different ways. Like, he'd have three different cuts of a scene, and he would bring in the accountants and the janitors and the parking attendant guys and the security guard and he would show them the scenes which. Which do you think is funny? And they would say, I like that one better. And they would go with that. He would like, test.

He'd a B test everything.

Yeah. And with the people that he's like, these are the people that are going to be watching the show, you know, in Omaha or in Pittsburgh or something like that. So what do they like? You know, and it was a great way to make television.

How long does each. I'm a complete novice to TV stuff. How long does each episode take? Is like a week for each episode, or is it like, like.

Yep, we would shoot an episode in. In five days. We could do it in like sometimes we would have to do it in four days, four and a half days. But yeah.

Well, episode was like the most exhausting to film or took the longest.

Oh, my God, there were so many. I remember the Fun Run episode. We had to film an entire.

Marathon through the entire episode. It was like 102 degrees in the San Fernando Valley and it was. It was brutal. They had air conditioned vans stationed around, but they would pop over here and shoot us running because you'd have to shoot each scene like five or ten times. So you're doing jogging scenes in the extreme heat. It could be. It was brutal. But listen, acting is Pretty easy. All things, all things told, I've had some. I've had some rough jobs in my day.

What do you feel like are the biggest lessons you've learned through your career that you would give as advice to other young people?

I think, you know, we talked earlier about mission and vision and meaning. And I think that if you think of your work as service.

And you're aspiring to something that maximizes who you are and benefits the most amount of people.

That'S where your calling lies. So it's like following your calling, something higher. It's not just, oh, I want to make money, I want to be successful, I want to be popular. It's like I have this skill set from, from God, from genetics, from whatever it is, and I want to maximize that to reach the most people, serve the most people. If you stay on that track, you may shift gears, you may go in different directions a whole bunch of times throughout the course of your life, but. But keep trying to hone that, that mission and align it with service, and you just can't go wrong if you're really connecting it to service to humanity and service to others. It gets us out of that ego state, which is another thing the Buddha talks about, you know, that the, you know, this, the, the. The self, you know, the, the. The craving self that wants to be the center of everything. That, that's our, that's our battle. That's our battle. In, In Islam, they call it the, the greater jihad. The greater jihad is the war you have with yourself. You know, the lesser jihad is some kind of. Any kind of holy war or something like that, but the big war that we all fight is internally.

How has that played a role in your marriage? Also, because you talk about, you know, this journey that you've gone on and how you've kind of reinvented yourself throughout your career, but how has that played a role in spirituality, played a role, role within your relationship?

So the writer M. Scott Peck wrote a book called the Road Less Traveled.

That was a course big classic.

Yeah. Big bestseller in the, in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, and, and people have kind of forgotten about it. I'm, I'm glad that you. That, you know, are aware of that book. It's a brilliant book. But he talks about how marriage is two people coming together to support each other's spiritual journeys. So my wife and I, we've had a lot of ups and downs. We've had a lot of struggles. It's been.

Exhilarating at times. It's been really hard at times. It's. It's been a long 30 years together, but we ultimately support each other's spiritual journeys. And if you, if you think about it in those terms, it's about like, hey, when do you need me and why and for how long? And, you know, how can I help you through this? And how can I help you through this? That we're, we're hand in hand going down a very perilous path. And I tell you, it was. It was really hard. Like, we. We were broke, we had a kid, I got the office. And they say one of the most stressful things, believe it or not. This is going to sound crazy. People are going to roll their eyes on the other side of this podcast. One of the most stressful things that a person can undergo, or especially a family or a marriage can undergo, is coming into a lot of money. So being broke our whole lives, and then all of a sudden with the office, making a ton of money in a few years was. And that we had a kid at the same, exact same time. Our. Our son Walter was born during the. The Purse Girl, Hot Girl episode of season one.

Oh, my gosh.

So his, his life has gone hand in hand. And he's 20 now, so that we filmed that 20 years ago. Can you believe it? But there were a lot of coming into money and fame, you know, coming out of poverty and into money and fame all of a sudden with a kid was, you know, posed a lot of. A lot of challenges. But we managed to support each other's spiritual journeys with a lot of therapy.

Along the way, like managing, like, budgeting, like, figuring out, okay, we're gonna spend this much on this much. How do we allocate now to, like, the child's education, like, things like that? What would you say the biggest learning was was? First big paycheck. What do you spend it on?

Well, first big paycheck was paying off student loans. So I still, I was here. I was like 14 years, 15 years into my acting career, and I still owed like 10 or 15 grand in student loans. And that, that was a big relief. But that wasn't the main source of the stress. It was just getting your bearings.

You know, your lifestyle changes completely. And, like, staying grounded, like you said, like staying grounded, staying connected to. To friends, to reality, to God, to nature. Those are the main. Those were the main challenges. And, you know, don't believe the hype. You know, I think a lot of it, that early fame kind of went to my head kind of like, you know, you go from just struggling and no one ever recognizing you for, for your work and just, just. I'm just trying to tell stories and have a career and, and be an actor. And all of a sudden, wherever you go, people are like, I love you. You're amazing. I'm like, you're like, is that true? Am I, Am I all that? You know, and that's again, that's the greater jihad. That's that the battle with the self.

How did it feel for you when the Office ended? I mean, obviously it was such a big role and such a big part of your life. Like, what did that process look like?

You know, it was time for the Office to end. We did nine glorious seasons. Love the cast. We all got along great and was. And as you probably don't remember this, but when it ended 10 years ago. So that's 2015, maybe 14, something like that. Yeah. And.

There were. There wasn't streaming services at that point, and people. It died down. People were not talking about the office in 2013, 14, 15, 16. It. It. You know, there were a couple of Comedy Central reruns and stuff, and people had enjoyed it, but it was gone. Then all of a sudden, 20, 18, 19, I was getting recognized more and more and more and more and by like 11 year olds and by grandmothers. And I was like, what the hell is going on? And that's when it had gone to Netflix and then Covid hit and it was like the most streamed show ever. I forget that many billions of viewing hours. It had. It had this resurgence. But, you know, Post Office, I got to start some companies, I got to do some podcasts, I wrote a couple books, I did a bunch of movies, most of which people didn't really see. But that's okay. I got to stretch my wings as an actor. Went back and did a bunch of theater. It's been amazing. I've loved it.

Of course, like you were saying, you've also started different media ventures and stuff of that nature. What gave you the courage to try doing different lanes of business?

So again, going back to mission, vision. Vision, purpose and meaning. When I got the Office, I got together with a bunch of friends. A lot of them were members of the Baha' I faith. So we had a kind of a similar kind of, you know, life philosophy. And I was like, hey, it's really important for me to make an impact now. I have a big audience. Like, where, where and how do I put my voice? How do I use my platform? And, you know, I work in nonprofit causes. My wife and I Have a woman's girls educational nonprofit in Haiti. We do a lot of work there. You know, I've been increasingly involved in climate initiatives, which has been great with Climate Base Camp, it's called Check it out folks. But also, we felt like with the mental health crisis the way it was, and with people searching for inspiration, we started this company, soulpancake, back in the day. It was a digital media company. We were one of the first kind of big YouTube channels. We had three and a half million subscribers, you know, early on, this was 10, 15 years ago, and produced a lot of, like, inspiring content. And we ended up doing a bunch of shows with Oprah Winfrey. And then we sold the company to Participant Media. That kind of went away. Now I'm starting Soul Boom, based on the book, the podcast, and social media Soul Boom. But. But it came from a need and a responsibility. Like, I feel that all human beings, no matter where you are, you can be a janitor in Topeka. We all have a role to play to try and make the world a better place. And there is a spiritual imperative to do that in our secular, materialist, Western culture. It's kind of like, do what you need to do to make yourself happy and content, you know, whatever that means. Like, have a nice life, make enough money, pay off your debts, have a family, live on a cul de sac, don't hurt anybody else. But I feel like the spiritual imperative from all of the world's great spiritual traditions is to try and make the world richer and to use and harness your abilities to bring joy and meaning and, and even jobs and to. To. To other people, to bring people together. So I felt that responsibility as, as a celebrity actor, and that's kind of what fueled Starting Soul Pancake, selling Soul Pancake, starting Soul Boom, which is a more specifically spiritual aimed kind of book and podcast.

But, you know, I want it to be a service. I want it to make the world a better place. I hope that it is to some small degree.

I love that. I want to talk about how you think of media having meaning and how you create content that actually changes people's lives or makes the world a better place.

Well, that's a great question, and I think it is one of the important questions right now, and maybe it's one that you guys are struggling with, because I'd love to hear your thoughts, is that that social media in a large, to a large extent is bringing just a lot of pain and disconnection to young people. You know, you're, It's. It is a It is fueling this mental health crisis. You know, it's, it's distraction, it's, it's, you're seeing other people's curated lives. Everyone. Even when I go on social media and I, I took it off my phone, by the way, but when I look at it on someone else's phone or whatever, and, and I'm looking on Instagram, I'm like, I'm looking at all the actors and all the stuff they're doing and the fun content they're creating and I'm like, oh, I should be doing that. I should be making all this content and why am I not making these really funny, you know, videos with all these quick cut edits and stuff, like I should be doing that. And, and that makes me feel bad about myself. And.

But yet the social media is how we connect. It's how we communicate in a lot of ways. And sometimes I have seen pieces on YouTube or Instagram that have really uplifted my spirit and been incredibly meaningful to me. So how do we navigate that dance? I don't have an answer there. How do you try and bring.

Important and meaningful deep content to people that can enrich their lives on a platform that is in a lot of ways tearing apart our social fabric? And, you know, young people increasingly are getting their news from TikTok and there's been a series of articles about this. It's, it's really dangerous because they're not double checking their facts. And depending on what algorithm loop you're in, you're getting inundated with all this information. You don't know if it's true or not. You could just, you know, you could just have someone on Tick Tock say Vladimir Zielinski is a woman, you know, and here's my proof, and show him in a picture of a dress and people like, oh yeah, Vladimir Zelinsky is a woman.

Yeah, didn't that, that literally happened with the first lady of France where now she's suing Candace Owens because they were saying she used to be a man. Like it. This stuff is, social media is crazy.

It is absolutely nuts. And, you know, but it's, you know, the genie's out of the bottle. It's always going to be here. It's, it's, we have to learn how to manage our relationship with social media and limit our interactions on our apps and our screen time. Every time I get my, my weekly screen time usage on my phone, it's like, oh my God, how am I spending six hours a day on my phone? This is crazy. When I go to my grave, am I going to be like the amount of time I spent looking at my phone is, as my life is passing before my eyes is going to break my heart. But we have to try and manage it, control it, and bring some kind of richer meaning to the content that we create in the media. So we need young storytellers to, if you're listening, to be making kick ass content that is going to connect people and enrich their lives and uplift their hearts.

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How has the film and entertainment industry changed since you first started? Because I would say that, I mean, I think about, even for us, we're building a consumer facing product. And so social media is, is 80, 90% of what we need to basically study to understand. Like how do we create content that's going to resonate with people who ultimately will download our app? And so I mean, I think about my screen time and I'm like double digits. It's getting really high and it feels like it's research and it's, it's something I need to do. And so I'm curious for you, what advice would you give to other young people who are just starting out, like they want to build consumer products or they want to break into entertainment where it feels like social media needs to be part of their life. Like what kind of advice would you give to Them.

Well, I think that you just have to set limits with your phone, right? So I, at night, turn it off, put it on a shelf, get it out of my pocket so I don't look at it. I try to not look at it first thing in the morning when I wake up. That's a hard thing to do. Like what text did I get? Who texted me last night? But to take some time to wake up, if you can take half an hour. You know Arthur Brooks, he's a brilliant, you should have him on your show. Brilliant happiness. Philosopher, writer, thinker.

He talks about like having, having time with the sunlight on your face before you look at any screens. And even something as simple as that.

Times when you've just put your phone away. Having limits is really important. But yeah, you know, know our phones, our screens are our, our tools to, you know, to create businesses. And you asked how the media landscape has changed. It's gotten a lot worse. You know, it's, it's, it's hard. In Hollywood these days. Younger people are playing more video games and looking at more social media and looking at YouTube a lot more than they are like watching shows necessarily. The streaming model doesn't necessarily work. I did a show on mental health and travel for Peacock called Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss. It was about two years ago and our show got canceled. Not because it wasn't a bad show or that people watched. A lot of people watched it. It's just Peacock lost over a billion dollars that year. So here's the streaming model. People understand, Paramount, Peacock, they're hemorrhaging money because there's not enough subscribers. They're all subscribed to Netflix. And you can only subscribe to, to two or three streaming services, right? You can't subscribe to seven or eight. And it's, it's not working. Network TV has pretty much gone away. Cable TV has pretty much gone away.

People aren't going into movie theaters, especially post Covid your generation. I blame you. Get back into the goddamn movie theaters, pay your money, get your popcorn. And not just for a superhero movie, please. So, so you know, it'll bounce back. The entertainment industry always bounces back and will find a way. And people love stories, you know, but part of the problem is the short attention span of like, it's very satisfying. I do it the same, the same way like I flip through YouTube shorts or Instagram reels or whatever and little 5 second, 10 second, 15 second pops of like, there's an otter in my kitchen. Oh, and here's the best way to pop a zit. And here's a guy who fell over in his canoe, and here's someone who fell down the stairs. And here's a guy who wears his pet chinchilla in his hat. Like, you just go, wah, wah, wah. And it's, it's distraction, but it's not even entertainment. And more important than entertainment is storytelling and art. So whatever we can do to lead people to real storytelling and art, which is greater than entertainment and entertainment is even greater than distraction. That's kind of the, that's the algorithm we need to try and move people toward. And that's something we can all take responsibility for. Like, when am I going to engage with a work of art that's a film or a play or a novel? Like the overstory. And when am I going to stop just engaging with entertainment, which is fast. And the Furious movie. Right. And when am I going to even give that up? When I give up just distraction of watching otter videos.

But if you were, if you were an actor and you were trying to break into the industry today, how do you think that would have looked different now, like with social media?

Yeah, I think, I think it's really important to be social. Social media savvy for a young actor and storyteller. And I keep going using this word storyteller because I think that rather than just seeing oneself as an actor, which is like, oh, I get paid to get a script and has these lines on it and to interpret those lines, like, I'm also in charge of telling stories. And that can be making travel videos or funny videos, living in my van or comedy videos with my friend or whatever it is, that.

Being adept in, in those modes of storytelling is just, it's just part of the modern landscape. But I also think there, there's a lot to be said for training the old school way in theater, doing Shakespeare heightened text, you know, learning what makes moments as an actor, what makes them land, bringing emotional truth to roles that you're transforming into. There's. Social media is no substitute for the real work of theater training and acting training. And I, I hope that that stays alive as well.

I'm really glad you said that because I think there's such a phenomenon now of, and I'm curious what you think about it. People basically are on social media, they get a huge platform and then they pivot into acting, but they've never studied acting or gone to, to school for it or anything like that. Like, I'm curious, do you think that's going to become more prolific. And how do you think it's going to shape the entertainment industry?

Well, boy, I don't know. You know, it was. I remember back, like in the 90s and early 2000s, when people were pivoting from reality TV to being actors. Right. And now they're doing the same thing. I think that there's. Some of them are really, really adept and incredible actors. I can't think of any right now, but, you know, I think that there can be both. It's not either or. I think we need actors that, you know, Timothy Chalamet went to acting school, you know, and studied and worked on theater and became like this incredible. He's young, but became this incredible transformational actor. And there might be someone that has a YouTube channel in St. Paul, Minnesota, and they have a different. A different way in and a different way of telling stories. Both can coexist.

Yeah, that's a good answer. Because I'm curious, like, if you think that that's going to continue to stay like the. The method of getting into the entertainment industry, of going to film school, becoming a really good actor, maybe not focusing as much on your social media, but actually becoming like a very good actor.

You know, the British are way ahead of us in this because in the tradition in. In London and England is you go to drama school. They have these great drama schools. You work really hard at creating characters, learning how to use text, learning how to bring emotions to life and physically use your body in storytelling. They really honor the theater there. And there's. It's theater and physical training, dance, tr.

And.

It'S culturally, you know, lauded in a way that it's not in the United States. And I think we could learn some lessons from them. But I also think that, you know, why are some of the best actors ever, like former rap stars, you know, rappers are great, always great actors. I don't know what. What it is like, because they're storytellers, I guess. They use language, they understand character, characters often behind a lot of their. Their songs. And so there's just. There's a lot of ways in. But there is no substitute to a great story that's a work of art with actors that are vulnerable and bringing their hearts and their mind and their souls to the. To the roles. We're always going to look to that. At the end of the day, I.

Must say, one of the most helpful things beyond art, because this was. I was not creating art. Let's be very clear. I did drama in high school and I was a tree did make my dad come for the five hour performance. He said he wouldn't come after that. That was, you know, I was. I was.

It was a five hour performance in which you played a tree.

I did play a tree. It is 100% true. Yes.

This was the adaptation of the overstory.

It was a crucible, actually a classic. I was a classic Tree, Evergreen. We lived forever. It was. I was there. I swayed with the wind. It was very emotional. It was a work of art. But okay, I will say one of the most helpful things that I've ever done for my own self confidence. I am by no means an actress. I would have loved to be an uppo baby actress. It would have been an incred career. But was taking an improv class changed everything for me in terms of how I function as an entrepreneur. Having confidence when I walk in a room and I don't know what you know I'm talking about, and I need to ask questions that I think are stupid. I would say for anyone listening, improv classes are the number one thing. Having to go into a room, especially of strangers, and embarrass yourself. I took one in middle school. I did it again high school. I did again in college. What was transformative for me. And you're known as like, one of the kings of comedy. Did you ever do improv throughout your career?

I took a few improv classes here and there, but I really came more from theater tradition. But there's plenty of improvisation, spontaneity, clowning that comes in the theater tradition. But I agree with you a thousand percent. I think everyone should take an improv class, even if you're not an actor and even if it's terrifying for you because there's this concept at the middle of improv and you. You hear it a lot and it's this. Yes. And yeah. So it's just accepting what's right in front of you and saying it's not saying no, but, you know, it's not like someone goes like, here's the banana you ordered. And you go, I didn't order a banana, I ordered a pineapple. And you kind of negate the scene. Like it's, oh, thank you so much, and where's my thousand pineapples I ordered? Oh, like you. You say yes, and. And it. And it spawns and more comedy and it's a way of living in the world. Because I do think that yes. And can work as an entrepreneur. You can. You're thrown a curveball and be like, okay, here we are with that curveball and what's next and how do we proceed?

I want to touch on something, because I know we're. We're limited on time now, but to go back to something a lot of people don't know about your career is the stuff that you do in Haiti. And I want to talk about your trip there after. After the earthquake and how that kind of shaped your perspective and now the work that you and your wife do there.

We went to Haiti in 2009, a few months before the earthquake. We fell in love with it. The culture, the people, the food, the music, the language. It's an incredible place. Yeah. It is rife with poverty, and it is in perilous shape. And then one of the most devastating natural disasters that's ever hit humanity hit the earthquake in 2010. 2, 300,000 people died in a matter of an hour. And the hotel that we had stayed at collapsed in rubble, slid down the mountainside. Everyone inside of it was killed. We knew we had to do something. We showed up to do some volunteer work with Sean Penn's profit nonprofit. It's called Core Response Now. And we taught workshops to young women in the arts. So I taught theater, games, and clowning and improv, and my wife taught creative writing, and we had some other friends that taught photography and other arts and music. And then we started working with young women's education in Haiti with a bunch of Haitian folks. We started this organization called Lide Haiti. It's been going strong for over 10 years now. We work with over a thousand girls in about nine different locations, providing scholarship.

Mentorships, tutoring. We have health care and it. And we even bring chess and the arts, and. And we bring in Haitian artists. And it's been. It's been incredible. And one of the big tragedies is that Haiti has just completely fallen apart at the seams.

Gangs now control about two thirds of the capital city, Port au Prince, and huge chunks of the rest of the country. People have had to flee Haiti for their lives. And many of them, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands came to the United States on. On work visas.

On legal work visas. And now those visas have been revoked. They're being kicked out of the country by the tens of thousands, by this current administration. And they are simply here legally, not illegally. They didn't cross the border at the Rio Grande. They're here illegally working. And now they're all being kicked out. But they can't go back, because they will go back. They will be killed. They will be kidnapped. There's not a Haiti really, for them to return to, because as soon as anyone finds out that they've been working in the United States for years, their lives are at risk and their families are at risk for kidnapping. It's a really, really, really terrible situation. So my heart breaks for the people of Haiti. You know, there you won't find a harder working.

Kind of more imaginative, vital group of people on the planet. I love it there.

I. The reason I wanted to ask you about this is I spent some time in Haiti as I was literally like a child when my. My family went down there, because Paul Farmer has this organization, Partners in Health, and we went to go visit his hospital down there, which ended up actually, like, informing everything the Gates foundation does on, like, how they think about healthcare, how they think about service delivery. Because he is this guy who basically studied at Harvard and then goes and starts. He's literally living in his car. But then he goes and starts this nonprofit, Partners in Health, in Haiti, and now all over Africa. He's now passed away. But honestly, the time I spent there informed so much of my learnings about. I ended up studying public health in college about that. And also just the work ethic and the culture that there is insane. So I think it's a real. I mean, frankly, I think it's a sin of the US Too, of how we were so involved with the fall of the country, too.

Yeah.

And how we've been so unsupportive.

Now, that's. The other part of the story is like, the United States has, you know, been really involved in the decimation of the country in so many different ways. We have a responsibility to, you know, our little brother, Haiti. And no other ethnic group has done as well coming to the United States than the Haitians. The number of doctors and lawyers and entrepreneurs that Haiti brings to the United States, it's. It's astonishing. I'm so glad you got to go and experience it and. Yeah. And speaking of books, Paul Farmer's books, Mountain Beyond Mountains, is one of the great books I would recommend for anyone to read. And his wife, Dede Farmer, now continues their work. That's so great. You got to experience that.

No, she's amazing, too. Dee Dee's great.

I mean, I. I think somewhere that would be really natural to also start to end is what you're up to. Now, I know that you recently filmed your movie Code Three. It's going to be hitting the theaters soon. Walk us through what that project meant to you.

Yeah. Thank you. I love this movie so much. Code Three. It's it's kind of both things, right? It's storytelling and entertainment. It's a comedy with me and Lil Rel Howery. He was in Get Out. He's a hysterical standup comic and great actor. And we're kind of two ambulance drivers, EMS workers on a night from hell. It. And it's, it's funny, it's searing and it's a. It's a beautiful kind of indictment of the American healthcare system. But it's not like, oh, it's an important movie that, you know, is a think piece. It's mostly just entertaining and super funny, but it also addresses a lot of like current imbalances in, you know, and racism and stuff with public health care, etc. And it comes out September 12th in theaters. I don't know how much longer after that it'll be in. In on streaming, but hopefully people will actually go to movie theaters and buy tickets and buy lots of popcorn and go see Code three. I'm really proud of it. I. I helped find the script and develop the script. I'm an executive producer on it and it movie means a lot to me.

Sounds like we'll be going co founder date night and we'll get some of the burnouts going as well.

Come on.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a good AMC in Union Square. We're gonna have our popcorn. We'll be watching. Okay. Sweet. Amazing. Well, I think.

How are you gonna find your low carb, high protein popcorn though?

We're not. We're gonna have the high protein, high carb one.

Okay. You just go full on.

I like to.

What I like to do is I like to put the M&M's under my butt so they warm enough and then if they melt, you know, put them on the popcorn.

That's an amazing life hack right there.

And it's actually sustainable.

You hear that burnouts?

Yes.

Sit on your M. Goes allow.

I'm not supporting you on this spiritual journey, honey. She goes, oh, no thank you.

I'm gonna have. Wait, what are the. I used to always go to amc. I'm blanking on the name. The giant blue slushy.

The slushy.

Yes. I want a slushie. Wow, you're really. I. This is sad. This is a dying.

See, you know the blue tongue afterwards.

Yes, yes. And I want. I bet they have Diet Coke slushies now. That sounds amazing. We definitely, we're gonna be going. I love it.

And how for the burnouts who want to follow along with all of your other work, where can we find your podcast.

My podcast podcast is available on all podcast streaming platforms, including YouTube. We've got a substack. Soul Boom is deep, funny, meaningful conversations about mental health, spirituality, living a rich, good life as a human being, and a lot of laughs along the way. So check out the Soul Boom podcast.

Well, I love the versatility. You can do it all, you're funny and you can have deeply meaningful conversations.

Wildly good looking.

Yes, all of it. We learned so much during this conversation. Rainn Wilson, thank you so much for coming on the Burnout.

Thanks burnouts. Thanks for having me. What a fun conversation. I love what you guys are doing.

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