Jane Borden: Discover Why This Improv Comedy, Creative Essay, And American History Writer Wants You To Train Your Brain To Listen And Acknowledge Others

I do really believe 100% from every part of me that everyone has the capacity to be able to do the things that they want and not to be held back by the mental baggage that's in our head that we want to push through.

Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. In each episode, we get down and personal with people who go after the things they want to make all their wildest dreams come true. Join us as we unveil and dissect a formula for what it takes to do the thing. Here is your host, Stacy Lauren.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the do the Thing podcast. This is your host, Stacy Lauren. I love getting a chance to talk to people who have learned to pivot when things get hard and how they don't let anything stop them from reaching their dreams. My guest today did just that and more. I also am still riveted by something she shared in this episode about how she got into writing in the first place. Her story starts in one direction and it takes several unexpected turns. As a writer, she has one of the most diverse portfolios I've ever seen. From comedy to narrative nonfiction to American history, she's written them all. And that's not the only thing I find impressive. Her ability to face fear and rejection head on, to go after the things she really wants, is nothing short of awe inspiring. It is my pleasure to welcome Jane Borden to the show. Hey, Jane.

Hi. Thanks for having me.

I am so excited that you agreed. Why don't we start off and have you tell the listeners about you and your background?

Oh, sure. I am a writer and author. I live in Los Angeles. I have a family. I'm from the east coast originally. What else? I lived in New York for a long time. I started my career in comedy and then in magazines and now I do narrative nonfiction and American history.

So I. I have so much I want to ask you about, but I first would love to ask you about comedy. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, how did you get into that?

Yeah, it kind of happened accidentally. I went to see a show with a friend. It happened to be an art, I guess you'd call it, called long form improv, which was brand new to New York. It had just come from Chicago, where it had not that long before been developed and it just looked so much fun. It just looked really exciting. I did not have a background in theater or the arts or any of that. In college I was a religious studies major, but I don't know, I was also 22 and it looked super fun. I Signed up for classes that night. And then that sort of affected my trajectory, kind of pinballed me off in a slightly different direction. So I actually started my, my writing career, I guess, in comedy, doing sketch and writing jokes and publishing funny essays and underground indie publications and stuff like that. And I love comedy. I did improv for years and years in New York, like 10 years, I guess at a couple of different. Of the, of the improv theaters there. And I don't really do it anymore because it's kind of a young person's game. But I actually just started up a random thing on a, on like a Sunday every other month or something where some old friends get together and mess around in my buddy's backyard just for fun.

But yeah, so I'm actually just getting into comedy right now. I just joined a five week comedy workshop. And I see what you mean because it, it kind of opens your mind in all these different portals that you hadn't thought before. So then new things sort of start to come out.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Comedy trains your brain to think in a different. In different ways, subversive ways as well sometimes, which, which I think is what makes comedy fun. Improv in particular can really train your brain to move in different ways that I found to be really beneficial for me as a person. I'm sure you've heard about the idea of yes and which has kind of hit mainstream now at this point. When I started doing improv, I realized how often I say no. I, I was saying no in life. And I think part of the reason I've started this Sunday morning playgroup situation is because since having a kid, the word no has come back into my life full force and I don't like it. And it's just a wall that, that stops you from developing or growing or connecting or discovering whether that's with another person or on your own. And so, so yeah, I also really loved improv for that reason. You know, my friends and I would nerd out at one in the morning in the back of the bar talking about how improv is changing my life. My parents and my sisters worried at one point that I had joined a culture.

Those are always the best ones when people are questioning what you're doing because it just means you're really into what you're doing and a little obsessive about it. And so everyone around you gets worried.

Yeah. Unless there's actually a reason to be worried. But yeah.

Well, for people that don't know, like the yes and idea. Do you mind? Kind of explaining that a little bit.

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. So the idea is that in a scene, I'll speak specifically about it. In improv, in a scene, your scene partner will suggest a piece of information via dialogue. So, for example, it's so hot this morning. I mean, this is just a stupid example, but there you go. And so you, as a scene partner, if you say, no, it's not. I'm freezing, then that's kind of the end of the scene because you've just disagreed. So your partner was developing a reality, and instead of agreeing to that reality and then building on it, which is the yes part, the agreeing and then building on it is the. And instead of doing that, you've negated the reality that was being built. And so now you and your scene partner are in disagreement, and it's impossible for the scene to move forward. So there's a couple of distinctions in there. I hear people quite often doing yes, but or yes or, which is you say something and they agree with you, but they say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but actually. And then they. And then they disagree with you. So there's the. Yes isn't just lip service. Right. You can't just say yes and think and think that you're following the logic. Or the other thing is a yes or. And this happens a lot when hanging out with friends and joking around is that someone makes a joke and then some. Everyone laughs at that joke. And then the next person will make a similar but adjacent joke. So they don't. They. They agree with each other, but they aren't building on one another. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, totally does. So it's almost like you're training your brain to be more flexible and not as rigid, too.

Yeah, yeah. And you're training your brain to listen to the people around you and to acknowledge the contributions of the people around you and build on them rather than assuming you have the answers or you know the best way to do something or your ideas are better. And the beautiful thing about it is that when each person is truly just building on what the last person said, then it's like you're building a wall one brick at a time. You put on a brick that I put on a brick, and you put on a brick. And when you do it that way, neither person is actually in charge. Neither person is leading. Neither of you is following a vision. You're truly doing it together. And when that happens, you wind up in places that neither of you could ever have predicted. And sometimes it's like, not that great, but sometimes it's revelatory and it's really exciting because it's pure discovery.

Yeah, I. There's. I love this. I've been really exploring this concept of life assets, which is pretty much anything you've done in your life that could be something that you've built a skill around or had an issue or had a strength or whatever that is. Right. Like, we all have experiences in our lives. And this, to me, there's like, so many life assets in you doing this comedy or in doing this improv. From contribution to collaboration to fun, to curiosity, to discovering things, to not needing, like, an outcome specifically. Do you agree?

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Do you have any other thoughts for other, like, life assets that you learned from that experience?

Trusting in collaboration rather than having fear of the unknown and being driven by fear of the unknown. When I write, I often don't know where I'm going. And particularly right now with this project, it's major research project I'm doing, I find myself starting to freak out, you know, like, I don't. I don't have any idea what chapter 7, 8 and 9 are or how they're going to fit together. But then I just say, well, I'll figure it out. I always do. Like, you just. You just figure it out as you go, and you can't figure it out until you're in the middle of it because you can't know where you're going at the start. Because if you do know where you're going at the start, then you're never going to discover anything along the way. And the best stuff comes from the discovery.

So the. I will figure it out. I always do. That came from this comedy experience a little bit.

I mean, it also came from years and years and years of writing. Right. I've been. I've been writing professionally for. I mean, since I was 24, I guess, so. Oh, my God. That's 21 years. So it also. It also comes from that. But, yeah, I would say it started with. I would say it started with the improv. I got so much confidence from that experience. That's why I say it kicked off my career.

Yeah.

Because it just opened up possibilities for me. I had never considered having a creative career. I didn't even really know it was possible. I mean, I thought creative career, like, what, Be a playwright, Be an actor? Like, when you're a kid growing up, you don't know what all the options are. So showed me what was possible and then also gave me the skills to navigate it. Yeah.

Adding confidence to your Life assets from this experience. I'm also really curious. I've been really exploring this concept, breadcrumbs lately. And it's like these little things that come in our path that happened whether it be accidentally or on purpose. And you sort of happening upon this comedy act and you being. I'm using the word entrance, but I'm sure you have another word for it. But being interested and then going at a head and doing it and now how that's impacted your life. I'm just kind of curious, how did you make the decision to actually do it? Because it's one thing to be watching a comedy act and say, I like this, I wish I could do that. How did you switch that and say, oh, I'm going to try this?

Well, I knew that, that they taught classes and I knew that they had student nights and like house teams that would be populated by students graduating from the program. But, but I think the reason, I mean, to answer your question, it was when I saw someone on stage fail. Not every scene is a success in improv. And that's why a lot of people can't watch. It makes them too uncomfortable or they find it boring. But if it's. There's nothing worse than bad improv, right? But there's nothing better than good improv. I mean, like I said, it's revelatory. The audience is part of it too. And it's this ephemeral thing that can never be repeated. I mean, it's philosophically beautiful in my opinion, but at any rate, a lot of it's really cringe worthy. And so I saw people struggle and fail during that show as well. And I thought, well, hell, I can, I can do that. I can be that bad.

There's something so powerful in that I'm really curious. So from this comedy and from improv, that's when you realize that you started to enjoy writing and you got to practice writing really by writing your acts and things like that. And then that's where that. I will figure it out. I always do. Mantra sort of came up. But can you kind of talk us through a little bit more of how the writing started to envelop?

Yeah, I was writing in addition to improv, I was doing sketch and that. So that's where the writing came in. And then I started writing little comedy essays and had a column and in a new indie that launched in Brooklyn around the time called the Elle Magazine. And then I applied for a job at a bigger, more established indie called Timeout. And it's an arts and Culture Weekly in New York. I don't know if they're still printing it. Everything's online now. But they hired me to cover comedy because I knew the scene so well and I had a lot of clips and they liked my writing. And then in addition to comedy, I covered all sorts of stuff there. I was basically a staff editor, wore a lot of hats, and that's where I really learned to write fast and on deadline. And I hadn't had excellent editors who were nitpicky in the best ways. And eventually I was able to internalize their voices and needed them less and less. Right. Yeah. So I would say that's where I really learned to write. And then I started writing personal essays, stories. I had a few published in reputable outlets. I had one in the New York Times Magazine and got some attention from that. Got a book agent, put together a bunch more essays, put together a proposal, and sold a book. So my first book was more of like a humorous memoir kind of thing, which is very different from what I'm doing now 10 years later. Maybe it's your breadcrumbs thing. I just kept following what was interesting to me that was in front of me. And now I'm doing, like I said, this research based, pretty heavy American history book. And I should not have. I didn't anticipate that covering 400 years in one book would require as much research. A rookie mistake right there. So much research. They're basically paying me to read at this point. Yeah.

And I think you're right. I think that does go into the bread breadcrumbs idea. And I love the way that you worded that following what is interesting to me, because I think a lot of people can have the opposite approach of, oh, this is what I'm doing and this is what I will do forever. Whereas we're in this more expansive place and open place of just following along what, what you were curious about, what you found interesting.

Well, you know, I mean, we change and grow, and the things I love at 45 are not the same things I loved at 25.

Totally.

Yeah, I know. That's the whole. That's the gift.

Right. It's just being able to evolve and be open to that.

Yeah.

I think that's why I've been doing a few episodes on do the Thing. Quit your job. Not saying everyone should quit their job. Right. But if you're stuck in a. In a rut and you haven't been able to expand at your current job and you don't like it, then a Lot of people feel, like, guilt over quitting and so anyway, so it's just that same idea of being able to just be open as far as like, what else is there for me?

Yeah, definitely. Which is easier to do in the gig economy.

Oh, true. Yeah, that's a good point. Oh, I wanted to ask you. There was a word you used that I, I didn't know and I'd love to ask you because other people might be wondering and now I can't find it. Oh, yeah, what is sketch?

Oh, Saturday Night Live.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So you were writing, you were writing.

That then I would not. I was not writing Saturday Night. Well, I, I did freelance for, as a joke writer for several years for Weekend Update. But no, I was not writing Saturday Night Live sketches. I just mean, like, that's the, that's the best way I can explain it to you is what you see on Saturday Night Live. Gotcha.

Okay, got it. So it's that format of just like that funny, quirky, kind of like writing.

Yeah, Short there. It's, it's, it's representational versus presentational. So presentational is when someone speaks to the audience. So that would be stand up. Representational is, is like a play where there's a fourth wall up. And so in the representational form of comedy would be a long form, would be a sitcom. Right. Or long form improv, which is about the same amount of time. And the short form, representational comedy would be like sketches. Now today, those are all happening. They're all videos, right? They're all viral videos. Sketch stage sketch shows still happen, but it's all little videos now.

And then I was also curious. You mentioned the essay story that you wrote and then it got into the New York Times Magazine and you got some attention or you got attention on it. I'd love to know more about how that even happened.

Oh, well, I knew they were publishing short personal essays and I figured out how to pitch the guy and I pitched the guy. It's usually, it's usually that straightforward. I feel like this is another thing I learned from kind of being in New York in the industry of things, is that it's not as opaque as it seems from the outside. How to. The same thing in Hollywood, people talk about how do you, quote, unquote, make it. Yeah, there are gatekeepers, but the gatekeepers aren't trying to keep you out, so to speak. They need you, agents and managers, whether it's for TV and film or for books and magazines. They need content, they need artists. They want to Hear from you?

Yeah. And so how did you figure out how to pitch him and how did you even figure out who the guy was?

Well, I, you know, in circles, I kind of knew, knew him. But also they, they publish that stuff in the magazines, right? There's a masthead to tell you who the editors are. When I'm pitching editors today, I don't always know who they are, but you can go to the masthead, you can figure out who covers what beats. And then you can, if the, the emails are often listed in the masthead, if not, you can like go find them on social media, Sometimes they post their emails on Twitter, sometimes you find out you have friends in common and there's lots of ways.

And how did you make the decision to approach him? Like did you have any kind of self talk come in the way of maybe not being qualified or maybe it not being good, or did you immediately know that he would be something he'd be interested in?

Well, two things, I guess. First of all, I had done enough comedy that I had failed enough to not let that hold me back. To not let the fear of that hold me back. I mean, you bomb on stage enough, you're. You become bulletproof. Right? But also I, I think the 20s are just a special delusional time where we, I at least wasn't full of fear and self doubt. For me that came much later. For me, that was my late 30s were a time of extreme self doubt, which was like a new thing for me. It was brutal. But I feel like in your 20s you just, you feel invincible. And I think a lot of that is because you don't really know how the world works yet. You haven't seen what can actually happen.

Totally. And so then you, so you pretty much, you found out who the guy was and then how did you pitch him? How did you reach out to him? I just emailed him and he answered right away. And then what was like the next step?

I didn't hear right away. I mean, I don't remember, but I don't think I heard right away. No, I think sometimes it can take weeks and weeks. And when you pitch, for example, if you pitch Modern Love at the New York Times, it can take like six months.

And had you pitched other places that didn't say yes, or was it just this one?

This was actually my first pitch in publishing and when it was accepted I was, oh, maybe I should do this. And, and then it kind of my career kind of pinballed in a different direction because prior to that I think I wanted to be a like a sketch writer, TV writer. And then I was, oh, maybe this is what I should do. You know, I got. Got some positive affirmation and a little bit of money. I was like, oh, this, this. That's when I started pursuing the book deal, which I don't think I. I would have done if I had not had that win in the traditional press.

Yeah.

And then how.

Let's talk about your book now. So how did that come to be? You got publisher from it, from the seeing the New York Times being published then that's how the publisher came.

Yeah. Well, when you're so nonfiction book, you pitch a proposal and they. And you get a book advance to write it. If you're writing fiction, you have to write the whole book first and then try to sell it. So nonfiction proposal. I just put together a few essays. By that point, I had been published in a couple of other places as well. And then I included 30,000 words or something of what the book was going to be, plus a few more sample chapters. And I had an agent who took it out, which you kind of have to do. You can't really do it any other way in traditional publishing, for better and worse. And yeah, and got a book deal. Blessedly was kind of right under the wire too. Got it in 2008, right before the bottom dropped out of the market. But yeah, that was so. So that was my first book. This time around I'm doing a more traditional nonfiction book about the history of apocalyptic thinking in America. And that was the result of kind of swinging back to source a little bit. I think I mentioned I was a religious studies major and have always been fascinated by religion and myth and how they affect culture and how belief determines behavior and culture. And during COVID I wound up doing some reporting on a couple of cults, which really just happened because. Which started because my editor at Vanity Fair was like, hey, you're out in la. Can you cover something for me? And I just. I became so fascinated by everything I was learning about it. And then because of all of my history with the subject and all of the background reading and knowledge I had done, I started having all these ideas and I thought maybe this is my next book. So pitched it and here we are.

It's amazing because you're kind of almost coming back to where you started, but you now are at such a. More came from that religious studies side, but now you're able to write about it in such a different way because you've this life being able to express Things in the way that you do.

I think it's. Yeah, thanks. I mean, it's, it's so funny because my plan when I graduated from college was to go to get into academia, to go to grad school, get a PhD in religious studies and become a professor, because I just love it so much. It's so interesting. And. But I thought, oh, you know what, I'll go, I'll do a gap year, right? I was like, I'll go live in New York. And then the improv thing happened and I pinballed in a different direction and. But, but yeah, I've. I've totally come back around. And now instead of. This is what my husband and I joke about because he has a PhD. Like, instead of paying someone, instead of paying an institution for me to write a book, a dissertation, I'm being paid to write a book, which is like, kind of like a dissertation.

So great.

Which is not to suggest that the money's great. It's not, but I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm having a lot of fun.

Yeah, that's so cool. So you mentioned the fear and the self doubt in your, your late 30s. I'd love to, to talk about that too, because I know there's a lot of people that are in that place, right. And trying to figure out how to get out and be able to be able to do the thing, essentially. So I'm just kind of curious if you're open to talking about that a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, I think as. I think it's a human impulse to, I think, motion and development and growth or human impulses. I mean, we certainly see that in, in the capitalist market system, right? Grow or die. And so any kind, any loss of momentum, any kind of stagnation incites fear. And that's essentially what it was. And I think a lot of that had to do with parenthood. Career naturally slows down when you have a child, at least for a few years, and especially for women. And so I was experiencing some of that and I think I was also experiencing some dissatisfaction with the career path I was on. I think this shift that I've made has been everything. I'm so much happier and more fulfilled now than I was before. I think I had started following the wrong path a little bit. I think I had started. What I'm realizing in retrospect is that I think I was following someone else's path. A lot of my friends out here in LA are comedians, are TV writers, are showrunners and what they do is so fun and it makes them so happy. And there's a lot of money. And I was just like, oh, that's what I want. And I still think I would love it. I still think it's great. But I don't know that it. That at this point, at least, it's my path. And so I started to feel like I was kind of banging my head against the wall because. Because I was following someone else's path. Yeah.

And so what have, what got you from banging your head against the wall to being able to change directions and to follow your path instead of someone else's?

Some soul searching, some purpose work, and finding something that, that I felt super passionate about, which, which happened when I, when I started doing cult reporting, Feeling the, the excitement that I felt about the topic and the response, frankly, that I got from readers and from my community was just like, oh, oh, this. Everything's pointing to this. This is what I have history in. This is what I have skill set in. This is what people are interested in. This is what I have exciting and fresh ideas about. I have something to say about it. And then, in addition, I feel like the work I'm doing right now aligns with the purpose work I did trying to figure out what I can do that combines my skill sets and my history with my interests and desires that will do something to make the world a better place. And I think, you know, I always joke that I'm like kind of a tour guide kind of character, some people would maybe call it, Know it all. I. I love to consume information and then. And then tell people about what I learned. I mean, I guess it's. I don't know. I guess it's a kind of education that's not sanctioned. And so with the work I'm doing right now on radical extremism and fanaticism and kind of tracing doomsday thinking in American history as it's gone secular and where it's showing up in culture in ways that we don't see it, I feel like I can spread awareness and understanding because that's, I think, what a divided culture needs is to understand one another.

So if you were going to give someone advice to do their own purpose work so then they're following their own path versus someone else's path, what would be something you would say to them to be able to discover that there's.

A lot out there on the Internet and on bookshelves about purpose, what it means and how to determine it? I, A friend of Mine, named Nate Andres, is a coach, a life coach who does a lot of work on purpose and talking to him and really helped me a lot. So I would definitely recommend looking him up. Nathan Andres. But yeah, I mean, you don't have to spend money on a life coach if you don't want to. But I think those are the three elements is what are you interested in, right? What will keep you engaged? Because if you're not engaged, you're not going to stick with it. What are your, what are you good at? What are your skill sets? What do you bring to this effort? And how can you do something that helps people or helps the world or builds instead of destroys or gives instead of consumes? Right. And when you combine those three things, you have something that you can follow like a compass.

What do you think has been the hardest thing for you as far as you being able to do the thing?

Finding the time. Finding the time as a parent and as trying to stay off social media, trying to stay focused. Also, there's not a ton of money in traditional publishing, so I still have, I still have some day jobs. In fact, I think people would be surprised to learn that almost every successful writer in existence has some kind of side hustle. So. So yeah, I would say time, time is the struggle. I mean, I could be three more chapters deep into my book right now if money were not a concern. But at the same time, I'm fortunate enough to have a side hustle that I really enjoy that fulfills me and also, I guess, feeds my purpose, which is that I, I work with other authors to help them develop their book ideas. And then along the way I also get to learn from them. So it's super fun and it, it doesn't always feel like work, which is a blessing. So I guess my side hustle isn't at cross purposes with my other work. But. But yet time, time and money, that's always right. Oh, yeah.

And have you noticed anything with the authors you've been helping that, that they either do or don't do, that either gets in their way or that helps them do the thing?

Fear. Fear, yeah. Do I have anything to say? Will this be any good? Have I done it in the right way? Yeah.

What do you think helps them get through it?

I talk a lot about something we discussed earlier today, that you have to trust the process that there will be, you know, and also as someone who's been through this so many times, either with my work or with the work of other authors, you see, you start to learn the Patterns and see them again and again. There will be a time where you will think, this is terrible, and you want to throw your book in the trash. Like, there will be. It happens almost every time. And then when authors hear that, they're like, oh, okay, so this is normal and this is a specter. Not necessarily, you know, not necessarily real. And I think that helps them when that moment arrives, to be like, oh, Jane said this would happen.

Yeah, you're just totally normalizing and acknowledging what's going to happen. So then they don't feel like they're. They're out of sorts, pretty much. Are you open to talking about your tendonitis? Because I read somewhere about how you had to restructure how you write when you found out that you had that.

Yeah, yeah. I have not typed anything more than a password on a traditional keyboard on a computer since 2009, when I was diagnosed with bilateral chronic tendonitis of the shoulder, which basically means that both of my shoulders, I have tendonitis around the rotator cuff. And it won't go away. It never goes away. It always hurts. And so in 2009, I mean, first of all, I got so lucky, I can't even believe it. Their company, called Dragon Software manufacturer, produced a dictation software for Macs and the one for whatever the whatever. The other kind of computer had only been out for, like a year. So, I mean, the timing was incredible because I was able to use dictation software. And you plugged it in this. This early form of it. You plugged it into your USB drive. There was a little headset with a microphone, and I would speak text, and the text would appear on the stage now, on the page, rather than now. This all happens on phones, right? All iPhones are outfitted with dictation in every app, which is incredible. Makes my life so much easier because now I can dictate, but then I can touch the screen to edit, which still will eventually flare my tendonitis. Too much screen touching, even that. But it's way better than pressing keys on a keyboard. So back in 2009, I couldn't edit by touching the screen. And so you had to do. It was so laborious, these commands. So I would say I'm going to forget them now. I used to. I mean, shortcuts on your computer, right? Shortcuts. It's like a whole nother language. It's like in addition to learning qwerty, you learn all the shortcuts. And frankly, part of the reason why I contracted tendonitis is Because I was good. Like I was fast. I mean the amount of keys I was pressing was insane. I was really productive with a keyboard until it bit me in the ass. But so I would, I would have to speak the key command. So it would be like shift command up, arrow or whatever it was, I can't remember. And I would move up like one line and then I would say it again and move up one more line and then I'd do a different key command to skip over, to move one word, to move one word to get to the middle of the paragraph. At which point then I would be key, key, delete, key delete or whatever it was. And it would delete like one letter at a time. I mean it was outrageous. It took forever. And so fortunately at the time I didn't have children and my boyfriend was long distance and I would literally just sit in my apartment for 12 hour days writing. But eventually what happened is instead of editing a paragraph, I would just rewrite the whole paragraph. So I would take a stab at a paragraph, look at it, think about what I wanted to change and how I wanted to say it differently. Then I would delete the whole thing and then I would just re speak the whole paragraph, delete the whole thing, re speak the whole paragraph. And that's one example of a lot of different ways that I had to completely change my writing process, change the way I write. And the weird one, the kind of like woo, woo witchy one, is that I could feel the words moving from my brain down my arms and out my fingertips and I had to train my body to have the words stop at my mouth and come out there instead of continuing to move down. And that was wild. But yeah, so I dictate all of my work and I've written since the iPhone came out. Really Well, I don't know if dictation was immediately available when the first iPhones came out, but yeah, I've written everything on my phone essentially since then.

There's so much in this that is just blows my mind because like as a writer and then having this happen, I can't even imagine what that had to be like for you. How did you, did you flip it automatically where you were like trying to figure out how you could still do this thing or did you have moments of doubt then?

Oh, for sure. I mean first of all, I was off work. I was off work on workers computer for maybe a month, at least three weeks, fortunately. I mean thank God for workers comp, right? And so because, I mean I worked at a Magazine and I got it from bad ergonomics at my desk, right? The desk ergonomics were terrible because it was like an old warehouse with like cool industrial tabletops and all that stuff. So at any rate, I basically just like fell into a puddle in my apartment for a few weeks. It was dark and my friends were coming over. I had a friend who had to open all my mail for me because I could, I couldn't use my arms at all. Like, I, I, they may as well have been in, in casts. Like, I couldn't. So I had friend come over, open on my mail. I had a friend come over do my laundry for me. I couldn't cook, I couldn't clean. My friends were helping me do all this stuff. It was really, I mean, my community really supported me. I still appreciate it. And I remember I, I finally devised the system. First of all, I was only eating food like carrots and hummus, things that were super EAS and didn't require cooking and cleaning. And I devised this system where I finally, like, my friends were grocery shopping for me. But it was ridiculous. It's not sustainable, right? So I devised this system where I had a, like a tote, like a backpack situation. And I tied the strap around my waist because I also couldn't carry any bags. I couldn't carry anything on my shoulders. So I tied the strap around my waist. And then I would go into the bodegas in New York, and I like open, like hold open the flap of the bag under the shelf and like use push cans with the top of my shoulder off the shelf so they'd kind of like fall into the bag. And then I'd go to the checkout and use my hips to toss the tote bag or the backpack, whatever, up on the counter. And the person would help pull everything out. And then they'd help me pack it all in and I go home. I mean, it's just insanity. But I, I knew that because if I did use my shoulders, I would re. Injure. There were a lot of re injuries in the early days, and one that I'm still angry about came from a physical therapist who pushed me too hard. There's a lot of like, gaslighting about my injury as well, because I'm, I'm supposedly a medical anomaly. Like, none of the specialists I've, and I've seen them all. I've seen every kind of specialist you can think of. No one can figure out why this is still a problem for me. And I have, I've had other, like, now I'm also struggling with tendinitis in my right knee from driving. So I also. I think I just have bad joints. And, like, I quit gluten. I'm trying to quit anything inflammatory. I don't know if it's hereditary or what, but, like, my body is not. Not interested in all the things I want it to do. Yeah.

So how did you. How did you not go into story? You know, like, you could have made a story and said, okay, well, I'm not able to write because I'm not able to do what I've been doing.

Like, how did you.

How did you flip that to be able to problem solve and, you know, find these new ways to make it work?

Hmm. I mean, I don't think not being a writer was, like, ever even an. An option in my head. I. And that's maybe in part because I had this book deal. I write. I had just gotten this book deal, and it was like the most exciting thing that had ever happened to me in my whole life. I mean, I was so excited about it. Like, there just wasn't a chance that I wouldn't make it work. And since dictation software existed, it was like, well, I gotta do it and I'm on deadline, so here we go. I'll figure it out. I mean, I think I was motivated by how excited I was about my career and where it was going. If at that time I didn't have a book deal, I didn't have a job at a magazine, I was still pitching pieces here and there or whatever, then maybe I would have switched careers. I mean, probably. I think about it still, like, it's absurd that I live this way, but I don't know. I also love what I do.

Yeah. And it's almost like these goals you had already down is with deadlines really helped kind of you keep. Plus the passion and the purpose work that you did just really helped you keep moving forward.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I. You know, just to clarify, I had not done any purpose work at that time. I was just kind of living for the fun. Living for fun. But. But yeah, I think that the passion and the deadlines and the desire. I mean, I had so much desire to succeed in that realm, for the book to be good and to get attention and to lead to whatever was coming next.

What do you think? I'm just thinking about you that day, and I think you said it was 10 or 12 hours in your room where you're trying to figure it out and write this new way. Like, What. What helped you get through that day? Was there anything that you said to yourself that kind of kept pushing you forward?

I think what propelled me, I mean, in addition to Lady Gaga dance breaks, what propelled me is whenever I would have a discovery, I mean, again, back to discovery. And when you're writing memoir in particular, there's so many moments of discovery, of, oh, wow. I never. Even when I thought about that story from my life, I never realized before that it had this element to it or that it connected in this way to this other story or that, you know, gosh, this. Maybe this theme I've been following also has this other element to it that I had never seen before. And moments like that are so exciting to me. I mean, moments like that just make me throw my fists in the air. And when you're in the thick of writing in a quiet space by yourself, that's when those moments happen. And so although those long days of solitude were really tough, I might have preferred to be working in a coffee shop or whatever. I think also there was some real beauty that came out of that forced workhorse solitude that. That compelled me to keep going.

Were there any words like. I'm thinking of the words you used before, which was like, I'll figure it out. I always do. Were there any words like that that you used to kind of get yourself moving forward? Like, in addition to you loving what you were doing.

Interesting. I feel like I often tell myself, just keep going. Like, if you just keep. Just don't be idle is something I tell myself a lot even now, if I feel. If I wake up one morning and I have a headache or the book I need is not in the library, or like any kind of impediment that stops me from whatever my goal was and makes me want to fall into the couch and turn on the television. I just tell myself, just don't be idle. It doesn't matter what you do today. It doesn't matter if you do or don't achieve your goal. Just don't be idle. So pull out your to do list. Oh, I have. I need to hand wash. I haven't. Or here's this sweater that has to be hand washed that's been sitting on my chest of drawers. I'll do that. And then at the end of the day, I don't feel that guilt and I don't feel that doubt that comes from when you're not achieving because you can't always be achieving, Right? But for me, at least as long as I'm not idle, then I Don't. I don't feel like I failed.

Yeah, I like that. Because it doesn't necessarily have to be in relation to what you're doing. It could be something as simple as, like, doing your dishes and that. That enough movement for you to feel good about what you're doing.

Because I think in the back of my head I'm imagining a zero sum game, right. I'm gonna have to do the dishes at some point, and that's going to take 20 minutes. So if I do them now, then there's going to be 20 extra minutes at some point in my life for me to write. Totally make sense.

Yeah, no, it totally does.

Which is also how I've tackled insomnia, by the way, is that I always have a book by my bed. That's. That's a research book. So right now, for example, it's pretty dark nighttime reading, but about the paramilitary training camps in the 80s and 90s that sparked the white power movement of that time, which is research for the book I'm writing. And if I can't fall asleep, then I read that book because then I'm, quote unquote, working. And since I'm working, I don't develop anxiety about the fact that I'm going to be tired the next day and won't be able to work as much. Does that make sense? Totally.

Yeah.

And then because I'm not developing anxiety, I fall asleep.

That is awesome. That's a recipe for a formula for going to sleep.

Yeah. Works like a charm.

I like it. Oh, I wanted to ask you, you skated by this, but I think this is a big thing, these Lady Lady Gaga dance breaks, because that's you.

Oh, yeah.

You're. You're controlling your attitude by bringing out the fun and moving your body. I'm just kind of curious. Did that. Is that really something you were doing?

Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. I found it highly motivating. It was paparazzi in particular. Oh, my God. I used to love that song. I'm not like a. I'm not like a pop music person, but. Oh, that song was like just what I needed right when I needed it.

Do you find that you do that a lot where you're. Whether it's music or. Do you have any other mechanism just to kind of keep yourself moving or motivated or.

I mean, yeah, I think it's really important to like get up and move around every now and then. People use that, like tomato timers or whatever where you work 25 minutes, you take a five minute break. That stuff can be super helpful because your say, because you know you have those little breaks coming. You save any other tasks for that break. You save like bathroom or fill your water. You save checking your email, whatever it is. And if you do check your email, you're not going to fall into 45 minutes later. You're like on TikTok or whatever because the timer is going to go off in five minutes and you'll get back to work. So I think those are cool. I recommend those kinds of systems. But even if it's just getting like, sometimes I'll. I'll do 20 jumping jacks and I find that to be super helpful. Or I'll switch locations. Another thing I've done is I break up my work into three different, or really four different parts. So there's research, brainstorming, or outlining, writing and editing. Because each of those four parts uses different kinds of brain power and requires different amounts of motivation. And so if I wake up one morning and I'm ready to go, then I'll write. But if I wake up one morning and I'm. And I just like, can't find the motivation at all, but I'm awake and alert, but I just, like, can't. Then I'll edit, because when I edit, I just fall into a hole and like three hours will go by and then I'll pop up and be like, what happened? Because you're editing. Like the words are already there. It just kind of propels you on and on and on. Or if I wake up and I'm tired and I don't have the brain space, I'll research because it's just reading. It's just reading. It's great, right? Making notes in the margin, et cetera. And then the brainstorming, outlining stuff is I think, the most creative. And so that's when you need to be feeling the most creative. If I have those four different areas, then the idea is, okay, make sure that there's always work to be done in all four areas. So that no matter how you feel in the morning or in the afternoon, or even if sometimes I work late at night, no matter how you feel when you sit down to work, you won't have an excuse. I can't do this because. Cause it's like, well, there's four different options here and they're all pretty different. Surely I can do one of them. So good.

You really just figured out like what lights your brain up versus what makes it more redundant. And then you're maximizing your time with what you already know about yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, Jane, you have one piece of advice for the listeners on doing the thing. What would you say yours would be?

Just keep moving. Don't stop moving. Even if you go in a different direction for a little, that's not a problem. Because either you're going to wind up doing something different or better, or that direction is going to bring you back to where you started anyway. So if you ever hit a wall, just move in a different direction. Just don't stop moving.

So good. And if people want to learn more about you and your books or your writing, where can they find you?

Yeah, I mean, I would say Instagram is probably the best place you can Follow me aignborden B O R D E N I'm gonna start posting a bunch of stuff related to my cult book soon as well, because there's so much more than I can fit in the pages of one book. But then also JaneBorden.com will have more as well.

Thank you so much for coming on with me today. This was like so good and I just, I had never even. At least there's so much that I got from this, but I've never heard the failed enough. It makes you bulletproof. So I'm really gonna explore that concept today.

So. Oh, cool. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This was really fun. I love what you're doing.

Thanks for listening to the do the Thing podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. But even more, we hope hope you'll be inspired to do the thing. Do you have a burning question on Doing the Thing that you'd like answered? How about an inspiring do the Thing story of your own that you'd like to share? We'd love to hear all about it. Just leave us a voice message at do the Thing callcast co or email us@helloothethingpodcast.com.