AI Copywriting, Modern Funnels & What's Actually Working in 2025 (Live Q&A)

All right. Hello to everybody hopping in. I'm going to make sure look at the chat settings. Let's see attendees can chat with everyone. Perfect. Panels can chat for everyone. Go look at the participants. Shows me that. Nice. See some familiar names in here. Hey, Raphael. Hey Bon. Yeah, long time indeed. Good to see you. See some other. Let's see other familiar names in here for sure. Yeah. Morning. Nice. It's cool. Hey Jason. Asia, Alberto, Elijah, Ab Kabi, Shardul, Sherry. Bright Sparrow. No. What's up, buddy? Good to see you. Yousef. Good to see you. Gordon. Paco. Good to see you. Thomas. Carlos. Lauren. Nice. Awesome. Lauren. Try to keep up with the chat here and go slow. Hamad, what's up bud? To Goldar. Lucas. Robin. Good to see you. Jonathan Garcia Fernandez. I do. Dan Binda, Daniel Aya Sayed, Ben Perry. Good to see you, man. Go through everyone. Alex, Yves, Sean C. It is going to be recorded. I'm not sure exactly. You know, I put the replay on. Yeah, I might put the replay on like YouTube or something or send it out to people who registered. I'm not sure. Leonardo. But yeah, it's really good to see everybody. So first of all appreciate you hopping on. I'm sure more people will kind of keep hopping on and stuff. You know, like I said in the emails and everything, like there's really no, I don't know the agenda for this call is just to, to jam and, and help people and not that I have the answers, but I have good experience in some things and you know, if there's something you want to talk about, then you know, we can do it whether that is copy or it's something like, you know, like funnel stuff, marketing business in general, building teams, you know, all that kind of stuff. I'm, I'm here to support, I mean most of you who are on this call know about me. You know, my background as a copywriter marketer know currently my two main big focuses are telemedicine platform which is, you know, doing pretty well. We'll do 50 to 60 million as it stands now for this year we were tracking to over 100 million. We slowed down growth a bit to focus on like profit margins because we're trying to get potentially acquired or big stake, you know, percentage of us, our business acquired kind of end of this year, early next year. But that's been a cool business. Learned a lot about that. Thank you, Thomas, Appreciate that. And you know then I have Capstarter Pro, CA Pro, which has got 70 plus kind of DC business owners all doing between three and a couple hundred million a year. And I created RBC2 recently which many of you may have gotten or heard about. And you know, I don't know. I mean, so I feel like what's cool. I have a pretty good perspective on marketing, you know, copywriting, what's working, funnel, structure, running, scaling businesses like for example the Telemedicine one and happy to help. So with the webinar format or structure, if anybody's got like a question, I'm sure many of you will. You know, if you want to put in the chat, you can. But also if you want to raise your hand, I can call on you and allow you to talk and you can ask any question you have and we'll just sort of, you know, jam and go ahead. I see Dan, you have your question there so we'll do that first. Give me a moment and I'll get to it. But yeah, I answer as many questions as I can. I'll, I'll ask the group as well because others might have suggestions. There's a power and a wisdom in the, you know, crowd. So sad to see you. I'll answer Dan, sleep on the chat and then I will then go to your side. So Dan asked, you know, get started. How are you going about building your sales pages and funnels nowadays? Any special tools that you're using to build them? Yeah, I mean the big thing, you know, it depends on the, the sales page and the funnel and all that kind of stuff. Right. Like obviously there's still different page builders and things like that. One thing I have found to be very valuable is like kind of vibe coding with tools like Magic Patterns for example. I'm going to show you guys, I'm going to share my screen. Give me one moment. I'm actually going to pull up a Google Doc. So for that additional questions that come in, I copy and paste them into this document so I don't lose track of other questions. So give me a moment to do that and then I will share my screen. So I got Dan's which I'm answering. I see Lucas and Richard and then I've got Sayad and Paco if their hands up. So going to try and do all that, answer those and more. Dan said magic pattern sounds awesome. I've been testing out Lovable and Bolt and see if they can really be useful instead of go high levels native pages. Yeah, I mean magic patterns is pretty cool. Here, let me share my screen. You know, for anyone who isn't super familiar with it, like you know Like I actually made like the initial landing page for RBC2, you know, with it for example. But what you can do, let's see this one was kind of cool and actually I'll show you guys something really cool in a second which is that you can use like ChatGPT's like agent function is actually really powerful and neat. So this page here which I'll should be able to preview it. Give me a second to remember how to do all that stuff. Where do I preview it? Welcome back to previews. I was right here. So this is like an advertorial for like skincare company, right? And this was something where I was just playing around but it's around this idea of like these popular eye serms can be disrupting your hormones. The design is pretty nice on it. It's done as this investigative report of a whistleblower seeing how there's these concerns and it's talking about our Unity isorem what's in your eye serum the concerning truth and it shows things that can be in other competitor products that would be bad. It's got this toxicity analysis thing, the shocking numbers, hormone disruptors, irritation potential, skin absorption rate. Then it actually did and I'll talk about this in a minute because this is not, this was not my idea. Like this is not so I don't really run this because it would be like you know, kind of like a little bit black hat non compliant but it actually even created this like these fake leaked documents of like other people and like skincare companies like talking about like how they know they have these like crappy ingredients, their products, we're still doing them. Then I did this thing where it took like competitor products, their price, the promises they make and then reality check about the bad things that are in them. Then it literally created and I'll show you guys how I did this in a minute. It's pretty wild. Check your isirm, right? Are you using an iserm of potential concerns and it basically has all these brands so you can select like you know a brand or their products, check ingredients. Here's what's got this wrong or bad about it. Switch to the UDI Revive serum instead. And so it's a really nice page, right? It's got this little countdown. So it's pretty wild advertorial. So this got made in magic patterns. But what's actually really cool and this is something I haven't shared really publicly. I've shared in CA Pro but I'll share it here. Let me go like my Chat history. I have to scroll back quite a bit to get to it, but let me see if I can find it. Where was it if not? I can see here. Is that just in Green Glamour. That's Ice Room. What I'm trying to get to, and I'll see if I can find this easily, is basically like, I use, like, the agent mode in ChatGPT to, like, create this actual advertorial. So what I'm saying is, like, essentially, I know I have other more recent examples. I can find one. Like, here's a sort of an example of it. We can go like the agent mode, right? Give it like, hey, here's like an advertorial, right? In this case, I just have quad write the advertorial, and I'm like, basically, like, this is an advertorial created for a product for my brand, right? Use magic patterns, design the advertorial, then we can publish it. I have an account with Magic Patterns. I can log in when prompted, attach copies of PDF. Here's something you can model off of. You know, you can pull images from this Opal Beauty product page. Okay, it's like, all right, I'm gonna do it. Am I not logged in right now? Great. Oh, hold a second. Sorry, guys. It's not showing the video, but basically what will happen is the agent will just go and build all of it. So that's what I did here at this advertorial. The agent came up with this, like, specific prompt, gave it to Magic patterns. Magic patterns was like, you know, okay, I'll create this, like, advertorial. Like, I did it. The agent, ChatGPT agent started giving it feedback like, you know, hey, like. Like, here's some inspiration to use. Replace it. And so literally, I just watched the agent, the ChatGPT agent literally go back and forth with magic patterns. And, like, this is all the agent, not me. And basically, Yeah, all of it was the agent. And basically that's what created this advertiser. So it's really wild because I had an advertorial Claude, but didn't even have all this interactive stuff in it. But the agent basically decided to add it and create this sort of crazy kind of advertorial page. I've never seen a structure like this before, so that was really cool. The other one, and I'm not looking at the chat, but I will look at it. I know there's like 22 plus new chat things for me to look at. There is, like, going back to, like, lovable, for example, so like that was like one where saving up the agent here. I don't know why it's not showing the video right now. Oh, here it is. Okay, so hey, let's create a non branded quiz where users can answer seven to 12 questions about their skin type and goals and that recommends the best eye cream for them. For this exercise, the eye cream that ends up being recommended will always be Unity Eye Serum. Will link to ue website, try and make it with magic patterns. But if that's challenging, you can also use Lovable. The target demo for this quiz will be woman 35 plus, but it's not exclusive to that age range. Talk about product market awareness a little bit. Here's the landing page, right? So if I just sort of skip ahead, you'll see it kind of goes over to Magic patterns. Magic patterns didn't really work. It found. So it goes over to Lovable. This is like the agent like you know, streaming in real time what it's doing. So now it's in Lovable. It's going to create like a new project. It looks at our landing page, it gives like the prompts, you know, keeps going, creates this quiz interface. It's like testing the quiz to make sure that it actually, you know, works or whatever. And then like the final product there, let me log in real quick, Is like this quiz which I, I could give it a little more feedback to improve upon it but right, start your assessment. You know, what's your age range, what's your skin type? And again it came up these questions. I didn't even give it these questions to use, right? Like just sort of like can answer the different questions. What's your budget? You know, how many quick do I see results? What's important to you? So like I would tell it in level, hey, add a product image for the Opal BDI Serum here, whatever it is, I can click get UDI Serum takes me right here, right? So that's what I talked about in a recent email. But this is where like the vibe coding stuff is so dope. So you can do it, you know yourself with like lovable or magic patterns, right? You can literally just say hey, add a product image to like the last, you know, to the recommendation step of the quiz, add like the Opal Beauty Uni product image and it would do it, right? But what's really cool that I don't see people talking about publicly and this is where I'm trying to just provide massive value right away is like this agent stuff is wild because then you literally just Tell the agent to do it for you. You just sit back and chill. You might have to take over like to enter a password or something which is good, right? You can basically take over, click a button, enter the password in the virtual browser so that you're not just giving the password to the agent and then let it take back over and keep going. But yeah, it's pretty, pretty dope. So there's a lot of probably questions here. But yeah, so I'm going to guess I'm going to Let me note there's additional questions. I know people other hands raised. So I'll go to the people their hands raised first. Or at least I think Syed was first on that thing. He dropped his hand. But I'll see see Paco. But give me one minute. Let me just make sure I'm tracking all these questions as best I can here. But yeah, that's pretty cool with the design. I see a sales call thing for Andre. I'm gonna make a note of that one. Yeah, cool. If that's not convincing, the fake leaked emos are crazy. Marketplace for pre made designs. Cool. I see a question from Raphael guys. Just a CAC jury asking a question there. So I'm going to look at that in a minute. So I'm trying to get through all these but I'll still open credible waiting with the memory niche. Okay. I'll make sure I answer as many of these as I can. Magic patterns is not what is free actually up to like a certain amount of uses and then you have to pay for more. But like yeah, I don't know, it's pretty cool. Um, like, like you can actually create some stuff for free and then you can pay to have more stuff here. Right. Um, what you did now and some instructions for me to do later with my AI sky lost halfway regards to that. Look at that. Yeah, you guys have access to the recording as well. And the magic pattern is what I just shared again, it's like a Vibe code thing right. So basically you tell it, hey, create an advertorial. Here's the copy. Create a landing page, create a quiz funnel, whatever it is. Right. And I mean it's pretty powerful. Like, like and then, then Lovable is like a Vibe code app too. So like going back to Lovable. Let me just share my screen real quick again. Then I'll go to Paco and then Dovey and then answer more of the questions from the chat. Like this is another one where I've been playing around doing like a, like a info proctor on like A GOP one reset since I'm doing telemedicine. Right. So this is another one where I had like the agent build it or. No, this is a content engine I'm playing with actually. Sorry. There's a couple of things I'm playing with here because they're super cool. I think this was the GLP1 reset one. Basically this is where you could essentially increase this dashboard. And so somebody can enter their metrics, like their weight, height, calories, protein, fiber, activity. So let's say for the day I had 1800 calories and 50 grams of protein. Sure. I'll just put the numbers that are here. Let's say six hours of sleep, five on stress, and I lost plus two pounds. Right. Calculate my GLP score. All right. 42. All right. Like, well, what do I need to do to improve my score? Right. So there's this idea of this was like there's like a 21 day GLP reset and you get this tool where you enter essentially some of your like metrics and it tells you like, okay, here's how to improve it. I'm not. Right. And then it literally gives you like meal plans, right. For the day and the week, for each week of the 21 days, workout plans. And so literally this is just like the same thing where it's just like vibe coded, where it's like, hey, we're going to, you know, create this GLP1 reset plan. Right. And then you prompt it again. Actually this one I had the agent built for me as well. And so now I created this. Right. Which is super cool. So you can kind of like VI code little applications, our tools like for people want to do info products like, you know, it's like really easy to actually build pretty neat like interactive info products now all that cool stuff as well. So, you know, I think it's super interesting. Yeah, Magic patterns and lovable are both cool. And then another one people like is Builder IO. One of our CA Pro members used that for a quiz funnel and showed the other day and it was really impressive. I haven't played with Builder as much, but that's also one. Let me go to some people who've asked questions that Paco raised his hand. So let me answer. Paco, what's up, Paco?

Hey, Stefan, what's up? Can you hear me?

Yep, I can hear you.

Okay, well, thanks for making this up, this meeting, first of all. So I really appreciate that coming from human. So to put. To put you in some context. Well, you know, the deal with this AI and copy thing that you have talked about recently, you know that AI can be in charge of all the copy now or most of the copy now. So I study, I, I always try to study, you know, old letters and old sales pages, some books, you know, but yeah, so here my question, it's a very basic question. Do you think I'm wasting my time like studying through all this stuff like you know, Gary Halbert letters or some old school copy to understand how, how the principles work? But as AI now can be in charge of everything, do you, do you think I'm, I'm kind of wasting my time? Will you, will you do that? Or what would you do if, if you were a founder, a first time founder?

Yeah, that's a great question, Paco. And to what Rohit just put in there too? Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's a waste of time. I think that if you were like only studying and not implementing that would be problematic because you do ultimately get the best like data and kind of like the feedback loop from putting things live, testing ideas, testing copy funnels, ads, everything, right. So you have to do both. Like you do want to make sure you're actually putting things into the wild and getting real life data and feedback. And yes, AI is incredible for doing design, coming up with ideas, writing copy. But I think it's still valuable to understand classic copywriting direct response principles and concepts for several reasons. One of them is just your ability for judgment is really important because even though AI can write really great copy and if you use the right processes and things like that, the copy will be pretty damn good the vast majority of the time. Your ability to know if for some reason it's not good or there's some little part that's off or some little thing that could be better improved. Those are all really valuable things. And so again, how do you get that knowledge? And it's really through both experience like putting things live and testing and things like I said. But also if you kind of understand those classic principles through studying them, that's also valuable. And then I think the other reason why there's still value to it is you will get a lot of ideas, right? You'll get, if you're an astute student, then you're going to get a lot of ideas around. Wow, that's a really interesting angle or hook or I wonder if you could take this and change it in this way and use it in 2025 and if that would work. Right? It's the same thing honestly, like I enjoy reading, like, books from the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, because you'll just sort of see things get referenced sometimes that were maybe like, culturally important in 1975. Right. Or something that, like, everybody knew about, but that for whatever reason didn't have the. Survive the test of time. And so, like, maybe like a. A celebrity who had a really interesting story related to health or even something around, like a weird, unexplainable phenomena that happened that people, like, was a big news story in 1965, but, like, yet nobody, you know, talks about today. But, like, there's something. Some kernel in there that could be like an interesting idea in storytelling or in marketing or in content. And I think it's the same thing with classic ads and things. So again, I think where you need to be careful is if you're just only studying, like, classics and not actually also implementing things, but, you know, definitely familiarizing yourself with copy and marketing and as they've stood the test of time, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Does that answer your question?

Yes, of course. Thank you so much, Stefan.

Just to.

Just to add up to that previous one, if I can quickly. How will you prioritize your study time? Like, first of all, the old school letters or your competitors or what? Like, what, What. How will you prioritize your. Your information consumption, you know?

Yeah, I mean, typically for me, I would probably spend most of my time, like, looking at what is working, you know, and so whether that's like, specifically to my competitors or, you know, in the same niche, but I'd also look kind of to the same idea. I just. I spoke. I just spoke to you. Like, I would also look at, you know, ads and funnels and brands and whatever, you know, like, offers that are. That are working in other niches as well. So I personally, I think the classics are cool, but I think they sort of get fetish fetish sized a little bit, to be honest with you. I think, like, it's worth looking at, but I think you're probably gonna move the needle a lot more looking and dissecting, like, you know, acquisition funnels from, like, brands that are doing eight or nine figures, you know, really efficiently that are great at acquiring new customers. Like, you're probably gonna move the needle more than you are, like, reading the halliburt letters or whatever, right? Like, no shade on the letters, but, like, you're probably not gonna get that much from, like, when Gary Halbert was writing to, like, bond from jail or whatever. Like, there's so There's a few cool things in there, you know, but like, it's like not like if you go look at like, okay, wow. These are what, this is what's working right now. This is the funnel structure, this is the offer structure. Here's the messaging. Like, you know, the ads all seems interesting. Like, this ad format gets used like again and again. Like, and then like how interesting that, you know, they have all these video ads, but they all sort of have different hooks, but the structure is the same. Okay. And then they seem to go to like one of two different landing pages. Why did they have one landing page? Just longer and one page is shorter. Like, you know, I mean, like, I think thinking that way as you go through is really, I focus more on that basically, is what I'm saying.

Solid, Solid. Understood. Thank you so much, man. Thank you, Stefan.

No problem. Okay, let's do another hand raise and I'll go through some of the questions in the chat. So Davi, like, if you want to go next, let me give you the ability to talk here. Yeah, I'd love to hear your question. Can't hear you yet though, unfortunately. But if you're available, if not all. There you go.

Hey, yeah, firstly, just thank you for all the knowledge over the years. Been on your list for a long time and joined some of your stuff. I also, all the inspiration through Covid and the politics stuff, everything. I love it.

Thank you.

I have a question for you as offer. As an offer owner, I've been in the supplement space for many, many years, about a decade now. And I just launched my own offer. I launched a really amazing kids multivitamin and I launched it on Amazon because it's the, it's the channel that I think is the most efficient in terms of PPC spend. And I really, I've like self funded the whole thing and I don't have a lot of money, so I needed some sort of like level of efficiency in the PPC spent. But I'm in a bit of a weird situation now where I have enough money left to either be able to place my second order of inventory or to promote it through ppc, but I can't do both. And also I set the sale price right now at 34.99, which I don't know if that's high or low because I've sold supplements for, you know, $75 or more. And you know, of course there's kids multivitamins for $10, but it's. I, from my experience in the supplement space, I know it's I know that the price is, is low enough where, where like my CAC will probably be higher than that. It won't be break even, I think. So I know I need, you know, an upsell in order to even, just break even on the front end. But there's no upsells on Amazon and I don't know that I could afford to do it on Facebook or anywhere else. So I'm just, it's just, I'm just in a little pickle. I wonder if you have anything to say about that. Also I'm wondering if this is being recorded or if I need to type really fast.

No, it's being recorded. Yeah. Okay, so basically make sure I heard the question right. So you've got this kids supplement you're selling on Amazon. You have enough money to either do another order of inventory or to run PPC ads, but you don't have enough for both. And then the other question is sort of around like funnel economics and things where obviously if you could do upsells then your margins, you know, you could have potentially higher margins and be more profitable and scale it more. But obviously you can't do that on Amazon. So you're sort of just figuring, trying to figure out where you focus almost in a way in the next course of action. Is that a good summary?

Yes. But let me add one little bit of clarification. When I say ppc, I mean off of Amazon. Like on Amazon, it's efficient. It's, you know, it's like, you know, it's, it's like a 200 Ross. But the, you know, I want to start pushing it on Facebook as well. And there I'm pretty sure just from my experience that the CAC will be minimum like 50 bucks, 45. $50. Right. And, and you know, I also, I've been thinking of continuing to drive traffic to Amazon just to improve my ranking before going to my shop. Like to push traffic to my shop, shopify. But even without that, like. Yeah, yeah.

But again, I guess one, I mean it seems like if, and I'm not like an Amazon expert by any means, so I don't want to represent that I am. But. Well, I guess one question is like if you would, if you, if you need more inventory, then wouldn't it like not even make that much sense to go do PPC stuff other places? Because if like you only have the money for one, it seems like you sort of like almost have to get more inventory. Because if you don't get more inventory then you can't Sell anywhere. Right. Am I missing something on that part? No, you're not.

It's just a matter of. It's just a really slow drip. Like, I'm getting sales, but they're a trickle and I want to be able to move the project along.

Sure. I mean, the next question would be, like, I don't know if you want to. You don't have to share where you're getting the product from here necessarily. But I mean, is there an opportunity to negotiate either, like, better cogs or better payment terms, you know, things like that? Because obviously that could help you a lot if you were able to cash flow the inventory more. I mean, what are the payment terms on the inventory right now?

30% down, 70 when it ships. But then, you know, you still have all the time after it ships from when you could sell it until you can sell it through. Plus, Amazon holds for 14 days.

Right. What is your. So how many, like, units have you sold so far on Amazon?

Probably closing it on 100 in the last month. I just launched it a month ago.

Okay, all right. And then what kind of, like, inventory? If you're going to put another order in for inventory, how many more units would you get?

Probably at least a thousand. I was thinking five, but let's say at least one.

Okay, got you. And, yeah, I mean, it's. It's tough for me here in that. I don't. Again, I don't. Like, I'm not an Amazon expert. I mean, I know people who do well on Amazon. So, like, I get it. I mean, the other thing about Amazon in general is if you do get something working with like, you know, sort of cold traffic like on Meta or Tick Tock or somewhere else, like, typically, you know, that will end up supporting Amazon sales. Right. Like, you're going to end up getting, like, more sales on Amazon anyway. There's definitely a risk. I mean, you know, I think the risk is that Amazon seems like if it's kind of working, you're getting a good return and it's sort of slow and steady, like, okay, cool. But you know, at the same time, like, if you're like, trying to scale faster, I mean, probably, yeah, maybe there's an Amazon expert who can help you. There's a lot of people who say they're Amazon experts and some of them probably are great. Some of them probably are going to just be like any other agency where they take your money and, you know, you don't really see the growth you're looking for. And so again, I can't. I Don't want to speak to like too much Amazon because I just don't have enough direct experience, you know, if you're gonna do PPC or you know, just what basically run Metads, you know, like there's obviously way more scale there, but I mean, what kind of like budget, like how much money could you tolerate losing to figure it out on somewhere like Meta?

Let's say I could put in a.

Open cut out for me. Dovey. Davi. Davi, unfortunately cut out. Unless it was my. I hear you now. Yeah. So you could put in. How much were you saying?

Or no matter what it goes to.

I'm sorry, the price cut out again. What's the number?

20K.

Okay, 20K. I mean, you know, that should be like enough to figure it out if you're pretty dialed in, you know. I mean, again, it's, it's, it's hard like running on Meta. Like, you know, I think like is like, you know, I see Dante. What's up bro? Yeah, Dante would know. He's someone who sold a lot of stuff, brother. I mean, yeah, it's hard. I mean that, that's the big risk is like if you put it up on Meta, let's say, or wherever it is and you know, what are you going to do? I guess if I'm you. If I was doing that, I'm probably running mostly static ads. I mean video ads are like, it's really back and forth. Like most of the big people are running mostly video ads. But like at the end of the day, like static ads are a lot cheaper, easier to put and typically we'll have right now like lower cost per clicks and stuff like that. So like you'll tend to get more juice out of statics. So I'd probably like start with static ads and then go to video. Like so. Okay, cool. Like, yeah, figuring out the messaging. Exactly, Dante. And also Yo Cassie is like the funnel converting all that. But it takes a lot of money and time to figure out all those economics. Right. So you mentioned upsells, for example. And it's like Shopify converts a lot higher than something like Checkout Champ. Nothing is Checkout Champ, but for even our skincare brand. We recently were doing a kind of head to head test and Shopify was like basically double the conversions, which is awesome. Right? But then here's the problem. Like upsells and Shopify suck. Like you can't really do video upsells. There's like after sell and rebuy or recharge, whatever. I don't Know, like what? Like there's just like none of the, like the upsell plugins or maybe someone knows an answer in this chat and I'm, I'm wrong, but we had a hard time finding anything that would support robust upsells. And so like the AOV with Shopify Funnels is really challenging. Right. So then it's like, are you going to use something like Funnelish or Checkout Champ or another sort of funnel builder type of thing? You can. So I don't know. Basically the thing is if you want to really scale, you probably do need to get past Amazon unless you find a really great Amazon expert. But in order to do that, know, I think you just have to be willing to gamble that money and understand that, you know, it really is sort of like a gamble. Like there's, there's a high risk, high reward type of situation, which is true, I think for any, you know, starting any kind of offer on Meta or anything else.

Got it. Appreciate the answer. And, and the $34.99 price point to, to CAC. Are you aware of any offers that are achieving CX in that range?

I mean, yeah, I think the CAC's over the. I mean, it just depends. I mean 34.95, like I, you know, I think you could be in like the 4050 range. I don't think that's out outlandish. It just depends on like the conversion rate and a lot of other factors, you know, but that's a fairly low cost consumer. Again, the risk is that you end up higher. But I mean, I would still have like, I would, you know, I would still have like package options on there. I'd have like a 136 or something like that. Right. And, or 124, whatever it is, and like, you know, like, so you can try. And then I would have upsells and you know, you're still going to want to, basically you're going to want to support probably like a 70 to $90 CAC and you're going to have like the funnel economics that do that versus like trying to like if like you're really like, I can't be past like $40, I think that's going to be really tough for you.

Thank you so much for the answer.

No problem. I see that chat blowing up. I see some people have raised their hands as well, so I will get to those. Let me go through. There's been a ton of questions. So let me try my best to go through some of these questions in the chat. As well. So I'm scrolling through here. I mean Lucas, Sandra said, asks how to promote an offer with affiliate with vsl. I mean Lucas, one question there is like are you, are you the affiliate and you want to use the VSL to promote an offer? Are you trying to promote a VSL offer as an affiliate? If you want to clarify or me in the chat, I'm happy to answer that. So put that in the chat and I'll come back and look for the answer there. Again, this chat is hard to keep track of, but I'm going to do my best and again, I appreciate everybody who's on and patient. If you have a question, I'm not getting to it super fast or whatever. So I'll come back to Lucas's. Ricardo had said, do you agree nowadays copywriters need to be more than copywriters? More like funnel expert strategy basically do a lot for business owners. I do agree with that in general, Ricardo. I mean, within reason. I think that, you know, if you're a really good copywriter, I do still see plenty of, you know, brands and DTC business owners who are trying to hire copywriters like you know, for emails often for ads like right. Met ads or video ads, TikTok ads, whatever it is, occasionally other stuff. So like there are those jobs still exist, but there's fewer of them. And frankly more often the jobs I see, it's like you're responsible for the strategy, the implementation, like measuring performance, et cetera. I really am not bullish on the future of. I think the idea of just being a copywriter moving forward is not very sustainable no matter what. Right. I think like the good copywriters, you still have some time. I was still going to be using AI and other processes and things. I was still, I mean even the good ones I think have to be more knowledgeable about sort of the holistic customer journey and marketing and things like media buying and all that. So I think no matter what, you need to understand those things better. And I think just getting higher to like write copy, I. I just feel like that's there's less of those opportunities where it's pure copywriting. And I think, you know, as AI gets better and business owners and others get more familiar with that, like it's going to only continue to be more scarce. So, you know, I would definitely try to like have a more holistic understanding for sure. Thomas, got a question. I see a lot of people talking about using VO3 and Higsfield for hooks and VSLs. How do I go about learning these tools to teach my editors any good place of info to learn them. Honestly, Thomas, for that, I mean like, I don't know Hicksfield, to be honest with you, but you know VO3, I'd know a bit. I personally feel like experimentation is like the best way like to do it. You know, I feel like if you just sort of like I've made some cool stuff with VO3 where I like we'll put like a static ad and tell VO3 to like animate it and bring it to life or whatever. And it will do that, right? They also have their flow, which is like a interface from Google for using VO3. I think Twitter is a pretty good place. People share a lot of threads and oh, you have to parse through a lot of bullshit as well. But there's still like, there's valuable stuff where people will be like, wow, VO3 is amazing, like thread. Here's the step by step for how to use it. Try to avoid the people who make you DM them DME sauce. And I'll tell you the secret because then they're gonna try and just sell you a bunch of shit. I mean, you know, whatever, but like there's a lot of good tutorials actually on, on Twitter or X or whatever. But to me, honestly, like I, I just play around like the vibe coding stuff I shared. For those of you at the beginning of this call, like I just figured that out all out on my own playing around. Like I created something for a telemedicine platform where like it does like blood work analysis and like books every like biomarker and a lab report and gives you like, and there's an AI chatter face and I literally just like did it one shot, like an hour. I'm not one shot. There's a couple prompts but like you know, I'm like, oh, this is really easy and intuitive. So I really think like you're gonna get the fastest growth from actually like experimenting with things. Right, Andre? I'll do a couple more, then I'll go to another hand raise. Andre said, on sales calls I often struggle with building trust and often making the client split pay on funnel builds. 4 to 6k setup fee plus 1020 revenue share. I also have pre call videos about it. Do you have any ideas on getting around this? I just sense fear on their end. Arm wrestling them to a close. Okay, so making the client split pay on funnel builds. So set up and then rev share by split pay. Are you meaning pay half up front, half upon close and they're like sort of wanting to pay at the end. Andre, if you were able to give me like a clear. Yeah. Okay, so I'm trying to make sure I have this stuff here. Yeah, I mean, let me think about that one because I want to try and give you a valuable answer. Right. I don't have a great answer, to be honest with you. Right. I'm trying to be really honest when I do or don't have a great answer. I mean, I think that a couple thoughts I have there would be like, ultimately, like the stronger your reputation and track record and things like that, you know, the more likely it is that they're not gonna have an issue. I think it also depends on the clients. Obviously, like the one. The one. One of the best parts for me with getting sort of like niche famous for copywriting. I mean, it still is. I don't do a lot of like client work these days. But like, you know, I could get a call if somebody before AI especially and tell them like, hey, $50,000, now you gotta pay me up front. And like they would do it. And that was because of my reputation and my track record and all those things. Occasionally someone would want to do a split pay and I would do a split pay. Right. Nowadays I'll often charge like 25 to 35,000 for a VSO, which is sort of annoying. Like one of the reasons why I don't do as many because I just feel like with AI it's harder to charge 50 grand. And frankly, the market's changed. A lot of things have changed. People need VSL so much. I tell people all the time, like, like literally like multiple times a year, I turn down projects because I'm like, you don't need a long form vsl. You shouldn't, probably shouldn't have one, but, but anyway, I mean, you know, depends on the client. I'll split pace sometimes they want whatever, but it's easy. So why is it easy for me? Like, right? And it's like, okay, well it's easy for me because of my reputation, my track record. But then also the people being referred to me tend to know that I'm expensive and, but I'm good. And so I don't have as much issue there. So, you know, when people are being more like resistant, you know, it would either be they don't you have to establish your reputation even more, right? Have more like preeminence or whatever, or it's just getting those higher value clients which, you know, comes into like, how are you getting them? Like, maybe you're qualifying them differently, whatever it is. But you know, also part of it could just be like, that's just, that's just what it is. It's just sales, right? So maybe the fact that you have to arm wrestle them to close them, you know, if it's working for you, then at the end of the day they're still saying yes. It's probably frustrating. You'd rather not go through such a, you know, kind of arduous sales process. But, you know, at least you're closing them. But yeah, maybe if there's a way to increase your preeminence. And again, I don't know what your track record looks like, but you know, proving that to them even more. I know you have the pre video calls, all that, but I mean a lot of people don't. Like I wouldn't watch them if I was going to hire somebody to build me. Like if I was going to hire you and you sent me all these videos, like what you expect, like 95% of the time I wouldn't watch those videos, to be honest with you. Right? But I wouldn't care. I would just be like, does this person have a track record? Are they good? And when I talk to them, do they really get it? And if they, all those things were true, then I would, then I would like just pay you the money. And it's always like the thing of, like, I've said this for many years now, but like if somebody, if somebody truly believed that they're gonna give you a dollar and get $2 back, if they really believe that with like no hesitation, they would give you a dollar every time, right? Like they would go take out like a loan, they would max out their credit card. They would do anything they could to give you money, right? So the question is, why don't they. They don't fully believe it. If you're closing them believe it more than they don't, but they don't like truly believe it. So like how do you, the question is just what do you do? How do you get them to absolutely, you know, be certain without a shadow of a doubt that's going to happen? And by the way, maybe you do like you test something like this gets sketchy. So take this with a grain of salt. Maybe there's like a guarantee or something like that. Like, you know, risk alleviation would obviously make a really big difference. But I'm not looking at messages down there. So maybe somebody just said that. And I'm not trying to steal anybody's idea because I'm not looking at the messages below. I'd say I have 12 new messages. But maybe there's some kind of risk alleviation or a way to remove all the risk, but it has to be something that you can really fulfill on. The reason it's sketchy is what you don't want is if you have a performance guarantee but it's the wrong client and then they don't implement or execute or do what they're supposed to do and then it drags on for six months and they keep asking you for more shit. Like there's a lot of like landmines there as well. But yeah, I think you could still be thinking intelligently about how could I potentially alleviate risk. Right. So those are my best answers there. I'm gonna keep scrolling through a few more things. Raphael Gomes, what are the best ad copy structures to promote Nutra as an affiliate? This depends on the niche or for example, you know, pas ADA will work for all. Yeah, Rafael, I mean, I think like it also depends on what kind of neutral you're promoting. Right? If you're, if you're talking about like sort of like the like classic clickbank super aggressive type of VSL versus like more of like a branded E comm or like hybrid thing, I'm going to assume you're thinking more of like the classic longer form VSL stuff here. But ultimately as an affiliate, like your job is just to sell and send the qualified click, right? And so all you do really is send qualified clicks to the offer. So this becomes okay, well how do you do that? Right. And so it can be you know, targeting related perhaps, although you don't do that much targeting with like Meta for example, these days. But beyond that it's probably like kind of like to your point, like both of those frameworks can work. I mean the big thing is curiosity, right? Like you want to have curiosity, you want to hook them in. Yes. Calling out like the pain point, promising like a solution, building curiosity around the solution, Maybe some social proof in there, maybe teasing the unique mechanism.

Right.

I would test it kind of different lengths. Like I would test everything from you know, 30 second ads, if we're talking about video, to a couple minute long ads. But like generally it's going to be pretty blind. It's going to be more about big hooks that are going to grab somebody's attention, create curiosity, build a rapport of calling out the pain point, promising a unique novel solution, having curiosity around what that solution could be, and then giving the call to action to Bring them over to the actual offer to go through that. It's not your job to try to overly pre sell them, especially if you're sending to something long form because ultimately they're then going to sit there and get sold for another 20, 30, 40, 50 minutes. So like just get attention. You're going back to ada, right? Like attention, interest, desire, like that type of stuff is like important. And then just send them on their way and just make sure they're qualified, which is where the pain points and things like that are valuable. Let me answer one or two more in the chat and then I will also call Spiel their hands raised because I know there's a bunch of people with their hands raised and I know there's a couple of things in the Q and A as well. So I'm doing the best I can, y' all of trying to run through as many things as possible. It's actually awesome. By the way, I really appreciate you guys being here. I'm grateful that you want to spend time with me and ask questions and that I'm, you know, can answer some. So jury, I know you have your hand raised, but I'll read the question and then you let me know if you'll keep your hand raised if this is another question or if this answers it. Cool. I purchased rnbc2 which has been super helpful. I'm running pay per call for Medicare and final expense. I struggle a lot with making the body copy of the ad emotional and, and create enough intent in the user to actually purchase the policy. Do you have any suggestions on how I can make the body emotional and still perform here? Jerry, I'll let you talk in case you want to add anything to that. Do you, do you want to add any context to that or you had your hand raised?

Yeah, no, I mean not super much. It's just a big thing. Like hook wise we can have like 50, 60% hook rates, like click through rates. They're all like 4 to 7% for the people that click. Right. But when I look at the people that get on the landing page or the people that click through, it just kind of drops off very heavily. And then you look at the charts of. It's very clear. The problem is that people aren't emotionally invested in it. And it's not like a neutral product. I can't scam them about some unique thing because then they get on the phone and the person says, are you interested in life insurance?

Right.

So it's, it's not super easy.

It's not. I Mean, I think that there's probably two ways to look at it. Like if I think through this with you, I mean on the one hand it's pretty like commoditized, right? For both like Medicare and, and final expense. I mean like it's, it's sort of. Because I, I, you know, I'm in the telemedicine space and we do GLP1s and it's kind of similar there where it's like, you know, lots of people are offering GLP1 medications. So like we've tested in those cases a lot of like sort of more emotional things or you know, we tested like VSLs or advertorials and like none of advertorials actually can, can work now, but they're very like comparison, like top five, what's the best brand, like who's the best provider type of things. I don't know if you're running through any advertorials currently. And by the way, our media buyers like do this, right? Like so on Meta, for example, our long standing, you know, me buying partner where we spend anywhere from 40 to like 150, $200,000 a day. Like you know, they'll whip up advertorials, right? So they'll go like add advertorial, you know, Orlando. And Orlando is like pretty brief. And then it goes into a questionnaire to see if they qualify. So there's commonalities between that and like doing paper, you know, paper call stuff. And so I bring that up because it's like, well, what are the. When it's like a commodity like that and it's sort of like health or wellness related or you know, like what are the big things people are wondering about? And this sort of like, I think trust is huge. Like you know, it's, it's like what, like the price, it's probably pricing, it's convenience. Like how easy is this going to be? And it's like can I like trust you? Right? You know, that being said, the final expense one, like obviously there's stuff around like there's some like. Basically what I'm trying to say is I don't know how much emotion you can really pack in. Like I would play with it like final expense. This idea of like, you know, the stories of people who like the, the tragedy of like people not being able to like you know, pay for the funeral or whatever it is, right? Like things like that. Like, because you know, or like, or just like the shocking like you know, Jill is like shocked like when her, you know, father passed away or I'm sure you've done something like this too. Like, like, like of course it was bad enough when Jill's father passed away, but then she got the bill for the funeral, right? Stuff like that. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I don't know, I think you just play with emotion in there and stuff. But like, like, but probably like. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how much you can do there versus like trust and you know, price and convenience, like speed. Right. Like you're going to be able to get a quote or get an answer very quickly or like a US based company. There's like, you know, 4.6 star reviews on Trustpilot. But you know what I mean? Like I think it sort of probably is more those things. But again then one other thing would be maybe advertorials. You may have room to play with advertorials more. So you can test very on the nose. Is final expense a scam? We looked at five companies and here's what we found. Number one will surprise you. Stuff like that. If you're not running those, I think that can be powerful. That's not about emotion. But those things just tend to do well. And then you can also test advertorials where you take a little more time on the advertorial side to maybe build out a little bit more emotion around whether it's Medicare or final expense as well.

Yeah, no, I mean we're, we're, I'm running kind of those on like the most aware angle. Right. Like get a quote, see like the discounts you're eligible for. But it's like difficult obviously to kind of scale those and kind of go into the like more problem awareness market where people know they don't have that much money but they don't really know. Like you know, nobody wakes up one day and says yep, I really need to purchase life insurance.

Totally. It's always been a hard thing to, to sell like ads and stuff for sure. Because it's like a future problem. Right? It's like a future pain point. Exactly. So yeah, I totally get it. But that's where. Okay, yeah, I mean that's very, I mean again, I probably would test at the advertorial level more than anything. I don't know how much you know if you're doing that or it sounds like you are but like maybe it's sort of like even more listicle clickbaity type of stuff. Like, like five, like the five, like five hidden expenses that can, you know Leave your family in debt after you pass away or something like that. Or like, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, just things like that are more like educational and then you just work emotion in. So I guess, you know, basically you have to educate them more and then also get them like feeling like, worried about, like I'm. I'm not prepared for that. You know what I mean? But. But they're harder to sell. I mean, it's. It's like that's the problem, these niches is like most of the people are going to be most aware and it is really hard to sell to the people who are sort of like vaguely problem aware. But I would probably do it through more educational content of like, like I said stuff like that, like five surprising expenses or like, I wish somebody had told me this before my mother passed away or you know what I mean? Things like that. And, and this. I would test that. I would test it on the advertorial side, I think. Okay, cool.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, my pleasure. Okay. All right, let's go to Dante. I want to give you an Atom and Zion, then we go back to the chat. Sup? Dante, you here? Did you wander off? You're muted, so there you go.

Hey, Stefan.

Thanks.

What's up, man?

Yeah, just I. I dropped this in chat. It seems like, you know, I hate saying this, but quote unquote, BSLs are dead. Yeah, seems like there's a lot of slowdown and like, like clickbank offers being launched. And the way that I kind of see is just like any industry, there's. There's like a match, a maturing phase and like a conglomerate kind of happening where now it's like, I mean, I'm listing it out right now. It's like there's basically like 10 companies that own 10 different off or many different offers that are kind of the ones that are doing good volume still. Yeah, but I don't know.

I don't.

How do you see it at like a macro level and like, what do you think that that has to do with the buyer psychology or like the fatigue or like why. Especially I understand why the VSL's on like the sub 50 market, like under 50, like never took off. Took off. But like why do you think like now Even like the 50 plus market, people are struggling with VSLs and going more towards shorter form and all these things.

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I personally think, I think a big part of it, I think there's shifting demographics, but I also Think it's just an attention span thing. And so if you look at like the world of clickbank for example, like generally the people who buy a, you know, top 10 clickbank offer in general are getting older and older. So they're like 55 plus, 60 plus. I'm sure you can give me go like counter example for whatever it is. Fine. But in general it's a much older demo. They also tend to be probably less sophisticated demo. But if you look at stuff like TikTok and Instagram and whatever focus on TikTok for example. I mean ultimately like nowadays everyone I know, like my friend, I'm 39, right? So all my friends parents are in their like 60s and 70s and like they're like oh my mom's on TikTok all day, right? Or like oh, my aunt's on TikTok all day. Or like the mom your Grandma gets on TikTok so she can try to like be cool and, and stay like relevant to her granddaughter or grandson or whatever it is. So I think that like that permeation has happened and the result of that is that the average consumer, their attention spans are even shorter than they were a few years ago. I think they're less again. Just the way people consume content, it's like this. And that's true for both younger demos. But now I think it's also true for older demos on average. And so I just feel like the long form vsl, it's like who really watches that? And it's usually a pretty bored lonely old person. Um, and that's fine. There's plenty of bored only like lonely old people. But a lot of the board only old people are also just going to tick tock instead or you know, or on X or on Instagram or whatever it is. And so yeah, I just think it's a shift in how people consume content information.

An important note on that Stefan too is and I noticed this like within the past few years of media buying on Facebook is that also a lot of the traffic has moved even on Facebook to reels, which is totally. Is basically tick tock.

Totally.

You know what I mean? So it's like everything is being tick tockified at least when it comes to the attention span stuff. But what do you think? Like, like, are you seeing like even just from like the client side like that? It's basically like it's harder like would you agree like what I'm saying that it's like if you already have like a really you're a big, you have multiple Offers you understand back end. You have all the infrastructure to be able to monetize that. It's like you're getting less requests from like new people trying to start new VSLs from the ground up and that it's really like established people or.

Totally. Yeah, A thousand percent.

And is that how it was like five, 10 years ago or with breaking, you know, from 2016 to 2020 till now?

Yeah, this is totally different. And like I said, I mean also I will have people come to me being like, I want to do like a clickbank vsl, let's say. And then generally I try to talk them out of doing it. Especially if they're trying to be like somewhat compliant. I'm like, you're not, you don't have a chance. Right? Because like the most of the top offers on ClickBank are like, you know, super aggressive. They've always been aggressive. But like there's a lot of group like Brazilians who are running on ClickBank and they're like basically, you know, running like deep fakes or it's like, here's Tom Hanks. So Tom Hanks is like, I almost lost my leg to diabetes, but then I took this like miracle 5 second like purple flower hack and you're like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's like real aggressive, right? And they're getting, and even there, like I like, I know some of those people and like even they're like, it's getting so aggressive that now like, they're like, they're like I'm uncomfortable. I don't even want to keep doing this because I feel like a piece of shit. Like the margins are like so bad, blah, blah. So like, you know, I really think that's a dying game for now. You know what I'm seeing. And so yeah, so I barely, you know, I, I don't like if I was just an opportunist I could still get people to pay me money for vsos. But I think most of them wouldn't. It'd be like a waste of time and money. Right. Realistically, what works? And again, the City Pro, we've got 70 plus D to C business owners that are, they're like, you know, almost all of them are doing E commerce. A few people doing biz op or info stuff or whatever. Clearly some big ones. But. But yeah, really it's like short video ads generally like you know, two to five minutes. Occasionally you see someone running like an infeed VSL that's longer or you Know, occasionally they run to like a landing page of a VSL still, but it's really like a shit ton of video ads to like different advertorials to like a product page checkout. Right? That, that's like, that's like the flow pretty much all the time. And then those video ads are like edited heavily. A lot of jump cuts. But I have like an expert, lots of weird what the fuck images in there. Like someone puts their hand in like a bowl of like yellow slime and it comes out right, like, so it's kind of designed for like add. That's what tends to work. Yeah, we talk about in Pro a lot and like generally like the question usually is like, when would you even test like a longer form VSL on a landing page? You know, and in general, it's like you would only do that if you're really trying to get your AOV up because you can basically make that work pretty well and get to 20, 30, 40 million, whatever it is. The challenge of that model is getting past that. You generally would need multiple offers, which is fine for some people, they can do it. Some people, it's hard. But really the only time maybe it would make sense to still send people to a long form VSL landing page would be if like you really want that AOV to be higher and you feel like you need to educate them more and they're gonna spend more time with you. But it's a very rare, like I said, out of the 70 people and CA Pro or business owners is like, you know, with their partners, 120 people. But like, maybe I can only think of one person who runs to on page via. Besides, there's a couple Clickbank guys that are like, have been the master for a long time and they just do whatever. But like maybe one or two people who like run to like, you know, kind of like white hat ish VSLs on landing pages. And even then they do a variety. They do both like in feed and they do on page. So. Yeah, I just. I don't know, man. I don't. I just. It just doesn't seem like that's the model anymore. Cool.

Thanks, Stefan.

No problem, man. All right, Adam, let's go to. You've had your hand raised for a while. What's up? If you're available, if you're here, then unmute yourself and feel free to share. If not, I'll go through some more stuff in the chat. Actually, I'm gonna look at the Q and A. I noticed. There you go. What's up? Adam?

Hey, what's going on?

What's up?

What's up? Yeah, main question I have is what are you seeing in terms of performance between in stream stuff and running things to a VSL on a lander? Like we're testing a lot of in stream just like longer form ads and we've seen that CPMs are really high right now just because we're front loading the whole offer into the actual ad. And so obviously Facebook like lexically just like reads everything and your CPMs are going to go up as a result. So yeah, just curious what you've been seeing.

I, that is the problem for a lot of people right now. I mean and for Dante, if you saw on this call like that's the one kind of counter to what I just said is like meta. I think Don, is he still here? Yeah, he's good. Yeah. I mean meta, like is such a fickle bastard. So still most people are running video ads and making it work. I mean you might, I don't know how long is like the, are the VSLs you're running sort of against stream.

They're short. They're short. They're like five minutes. We've done some like 10, 15 minute ones. So they're, they're shorter. We're in the, we're in the finance space. So it's, it's a little bit different.

Yeah. I mean it isn't, it isn't because it's still about the CPMs. Like it's still about the, the ad costs. Right?

Yeah, yeah. Like we're just thinking about Q4 and we have, we have a lot of clients and we've got hundreds of clients. And so for us with Q4 we're sort of betting on shorter ads. So we have like super short form ads, just like super indirect. Just like learn more curiosity, open loops and then send them to the lander and in hopes that CPMs will be lower doing that. But I'm not sure.

No, I think it makes sense. That's probably what I would look at doing. I mean and to be fair, actually what I'm thinking about, there are so a couple of things. There was like obviously that massive the secret trust fund offer, right. And you know, that was an on page VSL Financial crushed it, maybe still crushing it. I don't know. There are some other Dr. Brands in the space for Dante too that now that I think of it will run like a three to five minute video ad to a VSL page. So again it's definitely not, it's definitely the minority of people now. But like video has been really expensive for a lot of people lately. So like I do see a lot more people running like statics. A lot of them are just, they're just doing like static to advertorial to product page, whatever. And they're just doing longer advertorials and things. But yeah, I don't. I think that makes sense. I mean, I think, I think that's. I would still have like a marketing mix, let's say. I mean I was. Because it's just, you just don't know. Meta might change and suddenly like the, you know, videos way better again. But as of the last like two months they've really, they have been penalizing people for video a lot. So I would, I would do short video ads, but I honestly would also just test statics and if you have to put an advertorial in front of it, fine, you know what I mean? Because you are going to probably get typically like the best kind of CPCs and CPMs and stuff on a static ad. Your profit stack ad is like, are they sold enough? You still have to do a lot of selling after. Right? So that's fine. You could test like static to a lander for vsl, but I would probably typically go static advertorial lander for VSL and probably like test that and then doing shorter ads and seeing if the CPMs and CPCs are better there I think also makes sense really.

Okay, so even in, even in the finance space, like you've seen right now, advertorials to VSL are doing good potentially well.

Especially for. I mean, I'm not su. I don't want to tell you I'm super doubt in the financial space, but I may have seen that even the secret trust fund thing was. Was running that way for some of the ads. But I'm also saying especially for static ads, I mean depending on what the static ad is like, you know, it's just hard to like typically really long captions on static ads don't do like that great. And you know, so there's only so much information you can fit in. So it doesn't need to necessarily be a really long advertorial. It's almost more like on native where you'd have like a sort of squeeze page type of thing. You know, I think that would be worth. I would definitely have that in my marketing mix and at least test it because again, I just sort of feel like if you run a static, you might get way better CPC CPMs but you just need like the. You need them, like sort of enough intent there that when they do click through to the vsl, they're not like, what the fuck is this? Why am I on a random page of a video? You know what I mean? Like, they're like actually prime for that. So that's why I would still put some sort of like interstitial like advertorial in place.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah.

And if it's a text, like if it's a static with semi long form text and they're already in reading mode a little bit, so just sort of like following that flow into the advertorial, then from there, vsl. That makes sense.

Yeah, that's how I would approach it.

Cool. Thanks, man.

Yeah. Yeah. All right, awesome. All right, cool. I'm gonna go into the faq, the QA section, and then. I know Zion actually had your hand raised for a while. Let me switch to you one second. Hey, Zion, if you're able to.

Yeah, can you guys hear me?

I can hear you. Yeah. Yeah.

So basically my question is what I put in the chat. So I struggle with using AI, and I just think that it will make me a bad copywriter if I use AI. And when I don't use AI, I am not able to like, generate ideas and angles. So how do I use my. So how do generate ideas and angles without.

Got you. Okay, cool. So, yeah, it was. It was a little hard to hear, but I. I got it. It's like, how do you generate ideas and angles and be creative without AI? I mean, I don't think there's a magic answer to this, but if I just zoom out, it's like a macro. And I'm trying to get too, like, esoteric here, but it's like, what are ideas? Like, ideas are just combinations, right? So like, ideas are combinations of. Basically a new idea is a combination of old ideas generally. Right. And so what am I trying to do? I mean, first of all, I'm trying to expose myself to interesting ideas often. And so I think one of the most immediate and important things is just curiosity. Like, part of it is looking at what's work. I mean, one of the easiest things you can do is go look at like, what's working in other niches and categories. So, for example, just talking to Adam about financial. Right? So it's like, okay, like that's interesting. Like, here's like a big idea or a hook or whatever it is in like a financial promo. How could that be applied to health or vice versa? Health to financial or a gadget or whatever it is, right? Like how do I take or dating or info stuff, right? Like how could I take, how can I take a winning idea over here or an angle or whatever it is and then apply it to what I'm doing, right? What would need to change what could be the same? Like so I think that's like a really obvious and apparent thing. Like you can do like you could go look at the ads library for other brands, make a note of all the different like hooks they're using. Those are really interesting hooks. How could I potentially take that hooker angle and put it into my ad, right? And then honestly it's like doing the same thing for things outside of like offers and brands. That's where I think curiosity is helpful. Like but if you like go look at like news stories like do a little bit of doom scrolling on social media. Like look at like topical things are always going to be low hanging fruit. You go see like what's in like the, the zeitgeist. What are people talking about right now on what's trending. You can look at Google trends but also again like X or other places. Like go get viral videos, right? Like okay, like what's viral on YouTube or TikTok or wherever it is. Like okay what's like the structure of that? What's like the. Why do I think is viral? What is it that hook people in? How could I then apply that? So I think a lot of it is just like increasing your exposure to ideas, angles, hooks and things that are working in other places and then asking yourself the question of like what would it look like if I were to transfer that to what I'm doing? Right. That's probably the easiest way to do it and kind of the most like low hanging fruit I think. Brian, I agree. A Technique for Producing Ideas is a good book. It kind of talks about what I just said with the combination of ideas but it is helpful. But Zion, those are just some of my kind of initial thoughts there. So hopefully that helps.

And can I ask another question please?

You can. If I can't hear you super good, I might ask you to put in chat. But, but give it a, give it a try here.

Yeah. How, how would you go about using AI as a beginning copyright so that it does not curb your.

Can you put that in chat? I couldn't only hear part of it. I heard the question on like AI but I couldn't hear all of it. So if you might type in that chat, I'll give, give You a minute to do that there? I know. Sardar just asked. While I'm waiting for that, do freelance platforms, are they still good for new copywriters or is cold calling Push better? I don't know, Brian. You may have a good answer for that if you'll put in the chat. Because Brian Spiranello's the freelancers. Freelancers, I would call him. Like, he's. If you want to get clients or learn freelancing or anything like that. Like, you know, I don't know if Brian's still in the chat, but assuming he is Brian Spiranel, go get on his email list and follow him. And I have no affiliation with Brian. He used to be CA and stuff like that, but he's like the man. He has great content on that. Yeah, he's a legend. Exactly. Cody, of course. Uh, Suzanne, how would you use AI without curbing your learning process as a beginner? Um, that's also a really good question. I know some other people. You know, the conversation came up in the chat previously as well. How do I answer it? I think the best way to answer it, I mean, I think you just do both simultaneously. Like, I would try to be comparative again. Um, like, I would probably still be studying, like, still learning. Look at, you know, winning ads, funnels, whatever it is. You know, use proven AI, sort of systems and processes, and then kind of compare your outputs to what you see when you're, you know, looking at proven things that are working, things that are have been successful before. And also look at if there's any differences or things that are missing. I mean, that's sort of like the short answer. Like, I really do think, like most beginners, I know this could be controversial, but, like, if. If you use AI correctly, it's almost certainly going to write better copy than any beginner copywriter is going to. And I really don't think personally that I think that's okay. It's good. I think, like, the writing process as much as, like, people love the idea of being paid to write or be a writer. I don't think, like, the art of writing is that crucial for copyright specifically. There's a lot of great things about writing, like, wonderful thing to do, but it's really about the ideas, the messaging, the structure, whatever it is. And the AI can generally do a lot of that. So I think the way I would look at is it frees you up to then, okay. I talk about a copy thinker. Like, think about what the output is and think about, like, does this check all the boxes. How does it seem to stack up against this other thing I've studied or these other things I know are good? What could potentially be added or improved. Right. All those sorts of things and that's kind of how I would approach it there. So hopefully that that helps someone and thank you for the questions. Let me go into the Q and A section here because there's a bunch of questions there and guys, I do have a. Let me look at my calendar real quick. I think I have a hard stop in like 15 minutes. So I'm trying to get through as many of these questions as I can. But then I yeah have a call about tracking and attribution for the Telemedicine platform company. Super fun stuff but you know I'll try and do like a part two for anybody I don't get to today I'm trying my best so you know, forgive me if I don't get to somebody and an honest person. I remember you saying clickbank style on page VSL saw big performance drop offs recently. If I'm interested in doing affiliate for the next one to three years to get more experience plus cash flow garnpc too by the way, would you recommend any particular type of affiliate like Legion, Nutra, E Commerce, something different. Ultimate goal is to own my own offer in the next three to five years. So an affiliate. So it'll be a way to save up for that, get some experience. Yeah, I mean I think, I think you can do any type of affiliate. I you know, like honestly I still like I'm not like I don't do this constantly but I still really do actually believe in like TikTok shop for a lot of people. I think that's a really interesting marketplace for people to play around in. And the reason why is because essentially it's like there's virtually no cost, very low cost to be like an affiliate on TikTok shop. You can sort of like you're creating content like videos and you can you know both use AI and use your, you know, put yourself if you're comfortable being on camera. I mean you're an anonymous attendee so maybe you're not but like you can test a lot of hooks, angles, things like that very quickly messaging, you know you could potentially find somebody to go live for you right. Kind of partner with them. Maybe it's like a you know a personable young woman or man and I mean I've seen even when I did that tick tock shop like sort of course thing like a year ago with Wi Fi Money guy and like it did pretty well but like if there was plenty of people from there and also like my wife and her friends and stuff, like my, my cousin's wife, like they started going on and putting videos and they started making money like, oh wow, I made 200, I made 500. Like it's actually like probably like the easiest way to make money as like an affiliate is a tick tock shop. I mean, I think you just have to like, you know, you have to grind a bit, pull out videos, get one that hits, whatever. But I still actually think that's a really good place to, you know, make some money and prove out, you know, get feedback, angles and hooks and things. So I still really actually like it. You know, beyond that I like, I'm not dialed enough into the affiliate world. Like obviously there's people doing like stuff like final expense and healthcare and solar and like gambling and all kinds of other things. Right. I, I don't, I don't know, like I'm not d enough into like the affiliate world to tell you what the best ones are. I mean I think part of you also just play around, experiment, test some things. You know, all of that too. Right. So hopefully that helps to answer it here. You know, Abby had said, where can we go through these kinds of funnels for research? Yeah, I mean there's different spy tools you can use. But like, honestly, like if you know some brands, even a few, and you go into like the, you know, the ads libraries in Meta, for example, then you can start like clicking on the ads and going through the other thing I talk about. A lot will be like on like native, like you can just go to like, you know, I mean depending on where you are, you might need to use the VPN. But if you go to like weather.com or like type in like local news, like local news Tulsa. Right. Like, I'll show you guys this like, like, you know, this is always a good way to do it. So you're literally just like local news Fort Lauderdale. But generally you find like a local news site. They're generally going to have like a bunch of native ads on them. Of course, the one I've clicked may or may not. Let's see, he's thinking about like a bear hunt or something. It's great because you tell I live in Florida. Right. Then you get down to like around the web. Right. U.S. cardiologist warns aging seniors about blueberries for breakfast GUNDRY AMD well, we know Gundry is pretty big. Another cardiologist Cardiologist in north for North Lauderdale. One half cup, four bed burns, belly fat. I tried this generic Viagra and here's what happened, right? Fridays is a telemedicine company either, like a competitor of ours. We're not doing ed stuff currently, but I'm actually going to save that for later to go through, like these hearing aids, right? And you'll also notice you'll start to see like, similar ads, like a lot. So that's one of the easiest ways to go, like find things to funnel, hack, you know. And then, by the way, then once you go through, like for example, Oracle Hearing, right? Let's like, you go look through Oracle Hearing, you're like, all right, interesting. Here's the advertorial, Apply discount, check availability, Oracle. Like, then I would just go to like, you know, the ads library and like, let's see. Right. Are they running on Facebook as well? Oracle Hearing, when were the ads last launched? August 11th. August 12th. We're on the 21st. Okay, so they're not like huge on meta. Probably run more on native. But like, then I would like watch the ads here, right? I would click the. Learn more. Is it the same funnel? Is it the same advertorial? Okay, we have this advertorial here. What was that? The same one we had? Here it is. Okay, so they're running the same advertorial on native and non meta, right? So this is what I'm being curious. But again, if I go through like, just like find like local news sites, like, save the stuff so you have like links to them. Like take a screenshot of the advertorial, the ad, whatever it is, go to the land page and go see, okay, Are they on meta? Are they on TikTok? For TikTok, you can use stuff like callow data and other tools to go look. And I can start to really dissect and understand funnels. And I think that's one of the best ways to learn and understand marketing more holistically. Look at patterns and just really be thinking while you're going through it. Focus less on the copy and less on every single word and zoom out a little bit and think about the macro and the structure and like the ideas and what are they doing and what does that journey look like? I think that's really the biggest shift for a lot of people who are early on especially that can make a really big difference. All right, Zach, sorry I wasn't able to answer your question, man, but that hopefully answered that one for Abby that I answered your question about AI in here, Adam had asked another interesting question here. I'll answer real quick, which was my opinion on production versus quality. By pumping out 10 to 20 ads per week with different bodies or just two to three bodies of a bunch of hook variations. I've seen it done both ways. Yeah, Adam, for that, like, generally, I just think it's what works for you. I guess I would say, like, I see more big brands that tend to do like a handful. Like essentially it's often like the same winning caption again and again and again. Maybe there's like two or three captions and then like the video ad itself is. There's just a couple like video ads generally that are really good and they just have different hooks in front of it. There are big brands that are testing like a hundred, two hundred creatives. Like we like crazy amounts. Like we looked at1 in CA Pro recently where it was for like Primal Queen, which is like kind of a carnivore supplements for women. Their Primal Queen crushes it. Right? But then what we were talking about in CA Pro for a lot of other business owners, right, all doing high, like, you know, volume is this. It's just like hard though too. Like, it's hard to. Hard to keep track of it. It's hard to like keep track of what's. Which ones are working. Like you're sort of spending money. Basically the consensus there was like testing a good amount of variance is fine. Testing hundreds is really hard. Typically doesn't make sense. Like testing, you know, 20 ads at a time or something, or 30 ads is probably okay. But then to your point, generally we're doing what I just said, where it's typically like a few ads with like different hooks or variants and every week some new ones coming for the top SM platform. Like generally it's like basically testing new ads once or twice a week, probably twice a week, let's say. But they're generally one to two captions and then like five to ten, like images. We actually basically run all static. For ours, we actually ran video and the CPAs are a lot higher than the statics right now. Going to that the point that was mentioned before. So that's my take there. I want to look at some other questions that people ask. So give me a second here. That's one from Ricardo. That's when asked about the memory niche and Brian shared something there. Emails covered in RBC2 are great. One other sequence I think is critical to E. Comm is asking people for Prof. Reviews. Do you have a great sequence or advice for that. That's a good question. If somebody had asked, I may have missed it, but yeah, I can. I mean, typically the way we do that is like for telemedicine, for example, is. It depends. Actually we asked for reviews a lot, but like, we'll actually ask for like reviews pretty early on. So we have like our, like the call center and like a retention team that calls people and all these sorts of things. And generally we're like, hey, you know, if you've gotten great service, they're gonna have a great experience, you know, so far, will you go leave us a review on trustpilot? Right. And often they will. And so we actually like doing it that way because, I mean, the medications work. It's a GLP1 medication. But like getting them to rate their experience so far, you know, can be nice if you've given them a great experience so far. Like you can kind of get a lot of, you know, five star reviews very quickly. So we do it that way. Otherwise. Yeah, I don't know. I think for us if we just generally put that into like a welcome sequence, but we'll wait like a week or two, you know, basically after they've received the product, use it for a bit. How's it been so far? Like. Right. Are you happy? By the way, you can always call us if there's any issues, whatever it is. So yeah, that's how we tend to do that question. But I can, I can. If you ask that in rnbc2 Facebook group too. I'll do my best to answer more, guys. You know, I really want to answer more questions. I. But I have the hard stop, which I. I wish I didn't. So I feel like really bad. I'm sorry for people ask questions who I didn't get to yet. I'm happy to like commit to doing another one of these though. Maybe like save your question if like you can try to remember it, whatever it is, and then I'll look at, you know, doing a part two. Because I just, I wish if I can go for three hours, I would. It's just running like a $60 million a year. Like this stuff I have to do. Right? Especially as we're trying to potentially, you know, exit a big part of it and things. So if I could move this call, I would, but it's an important one. So guys, I'll. I'll try and show the recording as well. I put it on YouTube and email that out. And then again, for everyone whose question I didn't answer, like I said, I'm I'm sorry that I didn't get to it. You know, I know someone asked, can you mail me the question? I mean, you can, but I'm not going to guarantee that I'm going to answer it because I just, it's just bandwidth. I, you know, I would love to, if I'm able to. I will. It's just bandwidth, you know, so. But I will do my best, you know. And again, everyone, yeah, thank you all for, for coming and joining. It was great to see so many people here. And again, I'm very honored that, you know, you want to take the time to hang out with me and ask questions and just, you know, glad we got to jam and let's do it again soon. So thank you all, really appreciate it. All right.