[RTB:E1] "The Road to a Billion” Radio Show With Stefan Georgi

But it's gonna be fun. So let's go ahead and get started here. Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi, and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call in radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. And the reason for the name Road to a Billion podcast is because, first of all, I love double entendres, and this is a good one. On the one hand, by the end of this year, I will have sold close to a billion dollars worth of products, both my own and my clients. But it, of course, didn't start out that way. I started out as a freelancer in 2012, just struggling to get clients and pay my bills. And between 2012 and where I am today on this road to a billion dollars in sales, I've learned a lot of lessons and gained a ton of valuable experience. And my hope is that I can share some of those lessons and experiences with you guys on this show. And the other reason why this show is called the Road to a Billion is because I love big, hairy, audacious goals. Bhags is what Jim Collins would call them in his book, From Good to Great. And one of my goals is to have a direct, positive impact on the hearts and minds of at least a billion people in the next 20 years. That's a really big goal. It's hard to reach a billion people, but I would love to do it. And that's the double entendre. So it's about the billion dollars in sales, and it's about reaching a billion people and having a direct impact. And given all that, I feel like the Road to a Billion is a very aptly named title. This is our first show, so I'm really excited. I hope you are as well. And we're gonna start taking calls in about five minutes from now. And the way that's gonna work is that you're going to put your questions into the Q and A section in Zoom here. And then my friend Ed Ray, who has been gracious enough to act as my moderator on this call, is going to be reviewing these questions and feeding them to me and Ed. I'll go and give you a minute to say hi and kind of introduce yourself to everybody.

Yeah, for sure. Hey, everyone, My name is Ed Ray. I am super stoked to be here. Grateful to be able to help out Stefan with this. For those of you who don't know me. I am a young copywriter. I always have to put my age in there. I'm 19 and had the incredible opportunity to work with some of the world's best copywriters, like Stefan and Justin Goff, and learn from them and be able to work with some of the biggest companies in the direct response space right now. And I specialize in Facebook ad compliance and making shit convert on cool traffic. So I'm really excited to help out today.

Awesome. Yeah, it's really glad you stepped up to do this, Ed. And you're seriously a boy wonder. Ed is a brilliant guy, though. He's so smart, so cool. And the fact that where he's at at his age is just crazy. I mean, if I. I'm kind of glad I wasn't as dialed in as Ed at the age of 19 because I feel like I don't know if I would have been able to handle all of this success and I might have ended up in, like, a drug den somewhere or, you know, dead. So really glad you've got maturity and wisdom that's way beyond your years and really stoked to have you here with me. So for those of you guys who do submit a question, which again, is going to happen in the Q and A portion here where you just. You can see the QA thing on Zoom. Like, once we start doing questions, Ed will kind of. He'll be the one facilitating. So Ed will call your name, give some background on your question to me, then he'll unmute you, and you'll have a chance to explain the context and the background of your question in more detail, and we'll talk through it together and I'll provide insights or, if possible, a resolution to your question. I say if possible because, I mean, I want to be real with you guys. It's not like I'm going to have magical answers to everything. And I don't want to be like, a fake guru who just gives you these, like, answers that are bad answers or bad advice. Right. So if I don't know an answer, then we'll talk through it and we'll see if we can come up with something that seems like a good idea. But, you know, if not, then that will be what it is, too. So we'll get through as many of these as we can in the next hour and 25 minutes and go ahead and start posting your questions in the Q and A section now. And while those questions are coming in, I do want to share a quick story that happened to me yesterday because I think the story contains several valuable lessons around freelancing, copywriting, mindset and more. Actually, I wanna make sure I'm talking through my microphone. I am. Perfect. Yeah. So just a quick story for you guys. This would be like the monologue part of the radio show, I suppose. And again, this is our first one here. But I had something interesting happen, which was that some of you guys know that for my RNBC private Facebook group, which is people who've bought my RNBC course, I put a posting on my public Facebook page saying, hey, I want somebody to hire me to write a sales letter for them. I charge $50,000, but I'm not gonna actually write the letter. Instead, I'm going to take that money and hire nine copywriters from my RNBC course and let them write, you know, each. Pay them each $5,000 and have nine versions of a sales letter for you or your product. Then I'll kind of pick the best two or three. I will go through them, and for the ones that are the top two or three, I'll copy edit or copy chief them. And then out of that, whichever one we decide is the best, that writer will get a $5,000 bonus. And I was really excited about that. And it went really well. I posted on Facebook, I got great engagement, and four different people reached out to me, including two that I've already moved forward with. So one is a skincare brand called Alatora, and I shared a video I did with interviewing their founder on YouTube this morning, so you should check that out. And then the other one was Native Path, which is run by my good friend Chris Clark. And they stepped up, too. But the interesting story is this happened last week. I posted it last Tuesday, and I gave the deadline for submissions to be Thursday at 10:00am so last Thursday, a week ago. And then yesterday, I got two submissions for the projects from somebody who had recently. Well, actually, I thought that they had recently bought rnbc. So I got one submission for skin and another one for keto, because one skincare product, one's a keto product. And I responded to the guy and I said, hey, man, I appreciate you taking the time to do these submissions. It included giving me some headline variants and then giving me the first 150 words of a lead. And I was like, hey, man, I appreciate you submitting this stuff, but unfortunately this already passed. This project is closed, but there will be more opportunities in the future, so sorry about that. And the guy responded back and was like, so you're saying I wasted all my time you should have. He basically got very upset. He's like, this is a waste of time. I wasted all this time. I spent all day doing this. And he got kind of mad at me. And I responded back to him and I said like, hey, dude, you know, I understand the frustration, but I think you gotta realign your mindset on this, right? I was like, think about all. Think about the positives here. It's like one, you practice your copywriting, you practice rnbc, which is my copywriting thing. Three, you created new samples. So now when you're talking to other prospective clients, you can say, oh, yeah, I wrote something for Alatura. I wrote something for Native Path. Here's what it is. So now you have these samples. You can leverage that as part of your portfolio moving forward. And then four, you got on my radar. You sent me these samples. I read them, I looked at them. That's awesome. But now we have a bit of a relationship and as future projects come in and opportunities show up, now you have that opportunity. I understand the frustration, but I would really realign, shift your mindset. That way you can be, you know, not look at this as a waste of time. And so I sent that to the guy and he responded back again and essentially was like, well, I could have been doing something for a client. And this is a waste of time. And you're saying that everybody just, you know, if you put a date on the post, then I wouldn't have made this mistake. And you know, you're saying that everybody just submitted their, you know, 90 plus people submitted their applications and like a 24 hour period of time, like, come on. And so at that point I was like, hey, man. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If you looked at the comments, it was pretty clear, like all these people right in the comments are like saying like, oh, I put it in the comments. Hey, here are the people who are selected. Sorry if you weren't selected. I gave people feedback, like all this stuff in these comments. So I'm like, if you just read the comments, man, then you would have seen that it was okay. But at that point too, I also just told the guy I didn't want him in rnbc, so I just refunded him and kicked him out of the program. And it was kind of like, I still feel a little bit like weird doing that, but I just felt like I had to because I just don't want. I kind of want to be a lesson for the guy. Honestly, I don't know. I don't know if I should have kicked him out or not. But I kind of feel like I want it to be a lesson where it's like if the guy can't shift his mindset and he's going to sit there and get mad at me because again, I'm not making any money from doing this. I'm literally just trying to create jobs for people, which I did. I created at least 18 jobs paying copywriters between three and $5,000. And we'll create more after that. So if the guy can't check his mindset and it's like a waste of time and he's mad at me and I was just like, screw it, I'm going to kick him out. So I guess the lesson there though, there's several, right? It's. But the biggest is again, a mindset thing and how you, how you respond, like when things don't go your way or you make a mistake. Like, I totally get him being frustrated, but at the same time to then kind of get, to kind of get like mad at the person who's trying to create this opportunity and then, yeah, to have that person in my RNBC group and all of that kind of stuff, I just felt like he just wasn't the right fit. So I don't know. I think there's a good mindset lesson in there. Bailey said I can be ice cold when I need to be. And that's true, but it was just tough to do. But I did want to share that with you guys. And so with that being shared, let's go ahead and move into doing calls, doing Q&As and everything like that. So again, Ed will kind of pick people, he'll tell me who they are and kind of the gist of the question, and then he'll unmute you and then you can kind of give me the full context and we'll talk through it and we'll see how that all goes. So let's go ahead and get started here for sure.

So first up, we do have Daniel Sherlock. And Daniel has a very interesting story. Young guy, 22, lived in a garage last year and he wants to know how to go about becoming a self sufficient copywriter. So, Daniel, you're allowed to talk. Feel free to unmute.

Hi, can you hear me?

Okay, I can. What's up? Daniel.

It'S great to be here. How do you want me to like, just want to launch into the my question or do you want me to like, go through what I emailed you yesterday?

Yeah, if you don't mind. Launching into the question and including kind of what you emailed me yesterday so that everyone on the call can kind of get the background and the context. I think that would be a great place to start.

Okay, so. So yeah, so like I've, I bought rnbc, I enrolled in Copier Accelerator Light and you know, I've never like, I've never written copy before. Luckily I was one of the people who applied and got accepted for the Alatura skincare letter, which is like a tremendous opportunity. I'm really grateful, but I was just wondering like, you know, if you were kind of in my shoes starting from scratch, but with like these incredible resources, how would you, like, how would you go about like making this your full time gig? Starting from scratch for sure.

And right now do you have, I can't remember, do you have a day job?

Yeah, well, I'm actually working like a freelance gig for this HR company, but it's mostly just like research and getting people's emails so that you can send email outreach and stuff. But it's all already templated so it's like great experience for me. It's pretty good money compared to what I could be earning like at a supermarket or whatever. So yeah, like I'm paying my bills just so. But I have time to spend on this which I'm really trying to make my full time geek cool.

That makes sense. So yeah, I think the biggest things are the fundamentals, like continuing to practice obviously what you're doing with being an RMBC and exposure and Copy Accelerator Light exposure to different questions and copy critiques and funnels and everything there's I would really be focused on and I think your copy is pretty good. Obviously I selected you as one of the people for the Alotura Skincare gigs, so I would leverage that. I mean even the fact that you were selected out of 80 plus people to write for Alatura is something that I think when you're talking to other potential clients you can bring up and you now have that nice sample. So I'd be focused on just getting more clients and wouldn't worry too much about the money. Like the altera gig for 5,000 is obviously pretty, pretty good payday and up and coming. Yeah, I don't think I got paid $5,000 to write copy for. I started in 2012 and it probably wasn't until like 2420. Yeah, I guess 2014 when I was doing this stuff for the guys in Romania. So. So yeah, so, but so, you know, I don't know if everybody. Every gig is Gonna pay that well out of the gate. But I do think I would be working on building up my portfolio and gain experience and exposure and just running for as many clients as I can. And I would do that through some of the avenues we've discussed. Justin, who's my partner in Copy Accelerator and I have discussed. I like the cold outreach to prospective kind of dream clients. I think that that can definitely work if you send them a couple emails or a new headline and lead. Kind of what you did when you applied for Alatura. If you find those prospective clients and you can reach out and say, hey, I'm a huge fan, you know, I think what you're doing is awesome. And I'm an up and coming copywriter. So because of that, I decided to just go ahead and write you guys some new headlines that I thought you might want to test. I know you're probably testing lots of stuff and if any of those things happen to do well, then I'd love to discuss working with you guys on a more regular basis. So that stuff. I'm not against leveraging upwork. Somebody posted in the Justin and Stefan Talk Copy Facebook group recently about how they fucked around on upwork and got like $1,200 or $1,300 and used it to buy my course. And I thought that their breakdown was really good. So if you haven't seen that, I would really recommend checking that out. Cause I started out using. Did you see that one?

Yeah, I did. I think I skimmed it. I've just been told so many times to keep away from upwork because it's all like terrible clients. But yeah, I've never actually been on it myself.

I would check it out. I mean, I haven't used it in a while. Well, I mean, a long time as a freelancer. I still hire people sometimes, but. But when I was Starting out in 2012, Upwork was Elance at the time and I would. I actually, you know, made pretty good money there and I. But I was a lot of what that guy. I forget who was it was. I think either. Was it Luke Mills? Maybe I forget the guy's name. Um, but he. A lot of the strategies I use are similar to the strategies that he used. So I think a lot of it is how you approach things. Like there's a lot of people who are trying to like, hey, I need a Ghostwriter, write a 50 or 100,000 word book for me, pay $500. And you're like, not gonna do that, right? But there are people out there who Understand value and who are like, I need a new sales letter budget, $2,000 or $3,000. There are gigs like that as well. So I think if you're selective about the gigs that you're applying for that it could be a good resource. So I really thought, like, I honestly, for the freelancing course I'm going to do, I'm going to reach out to him. I haven't the guy who did that and ask him if I can use what he shared as like a case study because I thought it was really good advice. So I think it is worth going on upwork and at least looking around.

Yeah, I definitely will.

And then a couple of things with that too. What I've always done or I did back in the day is I would almost always intentionally be the most expensive person because what you're going to find is like that 80, 20 rule with clients, or maybe it's a 9010 where there's a bunch of people on there who just want it done cheap. But then there's that, you know, every one out of every 10 or two every 10 clients, like, what's the best person? And they want to pay the most. So there are times where I almost wish people. I hate to say this publicly in a way, but I almost wish people would charge me more because then I would feel even more confident in hiring them, if that makes sense. Right. So I'd rather position myself at. If somebody puts a range at 20 to $50 an hour, I'd come in at $50 an hour and I'd be like, hey, I'm at the top of the range. But that's because I'm better. Here are all the reasons that I'm better than everybody else who's going to apply. And here's how I get you an roi and here's how I get you results and all that kind of stuff. So I would look at that and then. Are you in the Cult of Copy Jobs group on Facebook?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I'd look at that too. But yeah, I mean, basically I would do what you're doing. I think you're on the right track between R and B, C and being in Copy Accelerator light. You're getting a ton of exposure to things. But yeah, I would just focus on getting jobs, different niches and building up your portfolio. And then I think if you do that and as you keep having success, which I think you'll have given where you're at already as a writer, then at a certain point it's going to Be something where you're going to. It's going to be very easy to quit the job you have doing the HR stuff because you're going to find that you're making way more money doing writing copy and doing what you're passionate about.

Yeah, I hope so. Just a quick question as well. Like, I was watching, I think it was your Vegas, your very first RNBC event or copy accelerator event. You talked about how you. How you trained copywriters with like, Ultimate Desktop Copy Coach and stuff like that. Do you still recommend that kind of process that you outlined there?

Yeah, I think it's good. I think, you know, when I. When I have copywriters read the Ultimate Desktop Copy Coach, that's especially for people who had. Don't know what copywriting and direct response copywriting, like, what those things are, then I think, because then one of the reasons I'm having them read that book is to get exposure to direct response and to, you know, kind of what sales copy looks like and everything. For somebody like you who already has an understanding, I don't think it is a necessity. So if it were you, I think that, you know, you can read it. Like, even in 2014, 2015, I went through a phase where I was reading a bunch of kind of different resources, like stuff that digital marketer had put up or Perry Belcher had created, or even Perry Marshall or whoever, all these different guys. And it kind of helped get my wheels turning. And I think reading that stuff is valuable, but I think with the RNBC training and all the exposure you're getting there, you have a really good foundation. So anything else you look at is kind of just like icing on the cake, I think.

Okay, awesome. Yeah. Super excited. Thank you.

Yeah, of course, man. Keep me posted.

Will do.

Cheers. For sure. Perfect. All right, Ed, who do we have next here?

All right, beautiful. Next up, we have Josh Knox. Josh is asking about how we use emotion and copy, but from his understanding, it seems that logic takes over for the unique mechanism. So you want to hear more about that? Let me unmute him. Josh, you are now ready to talk.

What's up, Josh? Hey, how's it going?

Can you hear me?

Yeah.

So the question is founded in the fact that we talk a lot about using emotion and copy, and it makes a lot of sense and we can connect with a lot of people. And then when it comes to the unique mechanism, that seems to be where more logic is brought into the explanation for the reader of the copy.

Right.

And so as I'm writing and I write for we have a service business, we do payment processing. And so there's a lot of logic that goes through a business owner's mind and I know emotion as well, but a lot of logic goes to their mind and, and it always has to do with the fact that they pay, they get charged a certain fee for the service. And so as I'm writing it, I'm thinking there's a little bit of logic that goes into that mechanism. But I just wanted to be sure I was approaching that the right way.

Cool, that's a really good question, and I think you are. The way I look at it is it's almost like a emotion, logic, emotion sandwich where I think we, I think we captivate people their hearts like first. And so that's where being emotional and kind of curiosity driven and those things are really important at the beginning. But then once we've captured their hearts, we do still need to capture their brain. And that's where the mechanism kind of comes into play. It's actually interesting cause I haven't thought about it this explicitly before, but with your question. But what it really is, it's like a two tiered thing where the mechanism really is like the brain part where you're like, okay, your heart's in this, you're interested. I've caught out your pain point. I've gotten you thinking of a future that is full of happiness and bliss and free of pain. But now the brain is coming in and being skeptical and saying, I've heard this before, it's probably bs and so that's where we're going to explain with the mechanism. Because then if we can do that and we can convince like the logical, rational brain like that it really is something different and that this, this is something different than what they've tried before and that there is a real reason that they failed and it's something they hadn't considered and then that we really do have the solution. Then like once their brain's accepting, when you get to the close, it becomes very emotion driven again. And so, but, but then you can, you can really talk to that emotion. And the brain's not going to act as like a, as a gatekeeper or a bouncer. Right. The brain's accepted it as well. So you've got both the heart and the brain both accepting of it and that's where you have the best chance of getting people to take action or convert.

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because that's sort of the mechanism I'm using for my Particular industry. It's the mechanism that I'm working on has to do with cognitive dissonance. Right. Because as humans, when we get new information and it's contrary to what we've experienced before, we have this sort of emergency break that's called cognitive dissonance that steps in and says, wait a second. That doesn't sound right to me. I've never heard that before, and I don't know that I agree with it. And that's sort of the emotional, logic based response that each person has when we talk to them about what we offer. And I would say that's probably true with a lot of people about any product. You know, anytime you look at any kind of offer out there, it's your brain's throwing up this emergency signal that says, wait a second. That doesn't jive with what I've experienced in the past, and so it must be wrong. And cognitive dissonance says, we gotta chuck that now because we don't think it's.

Gonna work for us.

So that's kind of what I've been thinking through, is that logic base. But I'm glad you said that. And that made much more sense. Emotion. Logic.

Emotion.

Yeah.

Good.

Hundred percent.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Yeah, my pleasure, man. Sweet.

Good stuff. Good stuff. Excuse me. Next up, we do have. Blake McNamara. So Blake is asking how to use RNBC to get better copy. He's new to copywriting and getting decent quickly. His mentor, Ian Stanley, said his emails were good enough, but he's having some trouble coming up with daily email ideas, and his process is pretty slow. So, Blake, let me unmute you and let's get the show on the road.

What's up, Blake?

Hey, Stefan.

How you doing?

Can you guys hear me? Yeah, I'm doing well. I'm actually at my 9 to 5 right now.

Nice. Are you under a desk deciding?

Yeah, no, actually, I'm outside right now. I had inventory to do, so I lucked out that you guys picked it right then.

Perfect.

But, yeah, I'm new to email copy. I've gone through some of Ian Stanley's courses, and he said I'm good enough to get clients, but it's just in writing daily, it feels like I'm writing a lot of the same material, which I think is probably due to, like, writing for one niche. But I don't see if I get multiple clients, how I would be able to, like, write different things. Like, not feel like I'm just rehashing the same email for different clients.

And are you? I'm Pulling up something that I'm going to share. But when you do this, are you doing a lot of like autoresponder kind of daily content? Because there's obviously one thing if you're doing like swipes and kind of click now emails that are promoting products all the time. And it's another thing if you're also trying to help clients build like relationships with their lists and things. So what kind of emails are you primarily doing?

So right now I don't technically have clients. I'm just doing like, I've done pre trials for people. So that's, that's another question too is like it seems depending on the business there are some that are just trying to sell the click and there are.

Some that are emotion based on.

So with the sell the click emails it seems easier because you just have one action. But in the like relationship based, it seems a little more difficult.

Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. So what I would do with the relationship based stuff, and I've actually, I did this for myself personally when I was launching my email list is I took, I created like a spreadsheet almost, and not even almost like actually created a spreadsheet. And, and I had three tabs or three sort of categories. So I had personal stories, tangible value, which I'll explain in a second. And then other people's stories. And then within the personal stories I had columns for where I wrote different things down. Like pivotal moments in your life, a personal struggle, victories, failures, a conflict with yourself or another or a recent discovery. And then I kind of thought about that and I'm like, okay, well what are pivotal moments in my life? So ones I have here meeting my wife Laura at a poker table, being hired by Yi on Warrior Forum, A guy named Dr. Farrow, who's a friend of mine who was an early client from Elance, referred me to a guy named Dr. Annunziata. And that launched my first profitable business. Breaking up with Laura because I was stressed, but she wasn't the problem. I realized my life was a problem. This is my years ago, obviously my dad dying. So basically as I'm going through, right, And I'm thinking through it, I'm like, here are all these pivotal moments in my life. I'm like, well, I can write an email about every single one of those things. And then the same thing with a personal struggle. It's like, okay, time management, my add, lifting weights. So I hate to lift weights, but I do it at least once a week because I don't want to have man boobs. Being depressed in New York when Laura was pregnant with my daughter because of seasonal depression and undiagnosed add. So if I. If we kind of do that, I would recommend. Even if you're doing it for a client, right? It's the same thing. You can have these categories and be like, hey, here's what I want you to do. I want you to list out all of these kind of things. And again, pivotal moments in your life. They could do them as little videos to you or audio or whatever. But think through all the pivotal moments in your life. What was the background? What happened? What was the outcome? Why is that worth sharing? And the same thing with, like, times that you struggled or your victories or your failures, et cetera. And then sometimes you can also do the tangible value stuff too, right? So maybe you have a specific hack or a specific trick. Like if I'm like, hey, here's three things you can do to increase your average order value, right? That's just tangible value or things like that. So I think if you look at that systematically and you sort of almost create like a spreadsheet and you list all this stuff out or have your client do it, then I think that will give you a surprising amount of topics. Honestly, I found that I don't actually, I haven't had that spreadsheet up in, like, in several months because I just kind of always have something to write about, which you may find too, as you get into, like, the habit. But it's a lot easier when I'm talking about myself than when I'm talking for a client. So if you have that from a client, I think that that could help you significantly.

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it's basically like creating the, like, RNBC headline matrix, but with, like, email topics.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a great way of looking at it. Yeah. Okay, sweet.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah, do. My pleasure. Oh, and then, by the way, Jasmine did say topical news stories as well, which is true because you can always do something about. If you're doing broadcasts, you can talk about what's in the news, and that always gives you fodder if you're really at having writer's block also.

Okay.

Yeah, that's usually where I start because I don't. They're pre trial, so I don't know, like, enough about the person to write emotional stories from their past because I don't. I just don't know them. But yeah, that's helpful.

Thank you.

Okay, cool. My pleasure.

Sweet.

All right, next up, we Have Christian Loparco. He wants to become a faster copywriter and he remembers that Justin Goff says you did like 10 sales hours in 30 days. How did you do it?

Sweet. What's up, Christian?

Unmute myself. Hello, Stefan, can you hear me?

I can, yeah.

Awesome. Pleasure to connect.

Yeah.

So Ed read out my question and you just impressed the shit out of me. To be honest, when I heard, I saw Justin write about you and how there was a point where you had like 10 sales letters. Sorry, 10 of like the 12 or 8 of the 10 sales letters on clickbank were all controls you written and written super fast because you had to retain our clients. It just blew my mind and I realized that I'm not the fastest copyright. I would call myself average and definitely slower than you or. I heard Clayton make these. Rest in peace. I heard Clayton was really, really fast. I know Dan Kennedy is really, really fast. And I just want to know, like, the action steps or things that I can do to get faster to get on you or Clayton or Dan Kennedy's level in terms of speed, because I feel like I'm average or below average.

Right now, for sure. Yeah. I mean, do you. Have you been through rnbc? Like, do you have the course or have you kind of gone through the trainings for that much?

No, I've seen your. Actually, I have your slide deck from. I don't know, from the event and also from your sales page. No, there was a page on your website, but I didn't invest in the course. Sorry for being a cheap asshole and asking you a question like this.

Okay.

I haven't gotten it yet, but do you think, like. I don't know, because that's like. To me, hearing that story is just like magic to me of how fast you are as a writer. And I just.

Yeah, I. Honestly. Yeah. For something like what you're. Cause what I. The feedback I get from people who really get trained in RNBC is that they can write stuff, like, way faster afterwards. So I'm not trying to. Like, the point of the show is not to make it a pitch for anything like RNBC or my mastermind or whatever. But, like, that is one of the huge benefits of RNBC and that framework is that you write stuff way quicker. So. And that's true of, like, no matter what. What niche it is. Like, Jake Hoffberg, who's in. Bought rnbc, so financial copywriter. And he just used it and wrote this, like, promo that normally would have taken him like, two months and seven days. And it was like the Best converting promo he ever had. And pretty much other people were saying how they just write in like an eighth of the time they used to. And the reason why is because, like, when you break it down that way where you, okay, research, mechanism, brief and copy, and you kind of like look at it, it's like research really takes you maybe three hours, four hours if you kind of follow answer the questions that I lay out, right? So then, all right, so that's three hours. And then the mechanism coming up with a unique mechanism probably takes you three or four hours if you kind of follow the process. So now, now you're at six hours, maybe you're at eight hours. Then you do the brief. The brief takes you probably about three hours because the brief is essentially these questions that you're answering before you start writing. But it's stuff like, what's the background story, the story of discovery, what's the product? What are the pain points, what have they tried in the past and why didn't they like them? Like, you're answering all this stuff and if you do the brief correctly, you're kind of writing it in copy format. And the reason that's important is because when you get to step 4C for a copy, then you actually have a bunch of your sales letter already written. So if like the research takes you four hours, say the mechanism takes you four hours, I think the brief really is like three hours. That's 11 hours. But you already have a bunch of your sales letter written. Then when it comes to write the copy, the copy is going to take you like six to eight hours. So at that point you're looking at like 17, 19 hours, like less than 20 hours to write the full promo. And so that's where. That's how I was able to write a sales letter every two and a half days. And sometimes I would write a full sales letter in a day. It's kind of, you know, grueling to do that sometimes. But that's what, that's why the process is so valuable. It's like the tricks and hacks and stuff are cool, but it basically is this framework where it forces you to go modularly and step by step and it produces that outcome. Like, and even if you don't do it that fast, like, Brian Sparinello, who's in Copy Accelerator, just wrote his first kind of really long form sales letter for Health and it took him 60 hours, like 6, 0. But still, it's like, okay, that's like one week or like a few long days, and he'll get faster too. So I don't know if that helps. Again, I'm not, you know, but that's the answer. It's like the RNBC method. And I don't. You know, I'm not telling you you have to get the course or anything, but, like, that is the honest answer to how I'm able to write stuff so fast.

Right. So it's the framework. I'm curious, does this framework or do you apply. Say you're going to do an email sequence. Oh, sorry, my timer. Say you're going to do it.

Right.

Email sequence. Do you use the same framework of the rnbc because, like, say, doing an email sequence or is it just for sales pages or VSLs?

Yeah, so for RNBC, like I would. There. There are trainings in the course on how to write email sequences. There's something from Jared Harlan who does all the kind of email stuff for Natural health Sherpa. And he kind of goes through his process and this thing called P wat P W A T, which I know somebody else. People have been using that who have the course and they're writing emails way faster as well. So it incorporates parts of rnbc, but it's also kind of its own little formula. But when you combine those two things together, that's where you get the fastest emails.

Got it. Thank you so much, Stefan. Great to talk. I know it's been a while since I met you in real life, but pleasure to connect virtually.

Yeah, 100%, man. Thanks for asking.

Thank you.

Yeah, and by the way, I know some people are saying, can we see this recording later? I've got a dash. Yeah, we will. I'll put the recording up on YouTube by tomorrow. Um, I do want to put these up as podcast format as well, but it's going to take. It'll probably be a few weeks before these start coming out as podcasts. And the reason why is because I'm going to work with my friend Louis Diaz, who I know, Ed, you know Louis, and kind of do the podcast stuff as like more of a launch and really get it all streamlined and everything.

Dude, that's sick. He's a good guy to work with.

Yeah, we had a good chat this morning. He's a cool guy.

That's awesome, bro. Glad to hear it. All right, next up, we, you know.

Hey, Ed, actually, sorry, one second before everybody. Before I go to the next question, is this for everyone who is here on the call listening. Have you guys been getting value from this so far? I just want to make sure if you can Type like a. Yeah. In the chat or whatever, if you are.

This is really good.

Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm seeing good feedback here. Awesome. All right, good, good. All right, perfect. I just want to make sure everyone's not seeing here, like, oh, man, what a disaster. So glad to know that's not the case. All right, cool. Go ahead and begin. Stephanie said Blake.

All right, so a lot of questions about clients. I think we answered a little bit of that. So let's move on to something a little bit different. Got a question from Luca Schieleski about how would you go about developing an app that you believe to be a huge idea without proper funding, so raising money to making it happen and partnering with the right person to do so to help make it happen? So I feel like basically he wants to develop an app, but what's the best way to get funding and find the right partner with the right person?

Cool. Luka, you want to unmute him? Perfect.

There we go. Luca, go ahead.

What's up, Luca?

Stefan, can you hear me?

Yeah. How you doing?

Good.

How about you?

I'm doing great, man.

So, yeah, I don't want to necessarily disclose the idea just yet, but I just, like, as far as the whole process, and if you were in my shoes, what would you do? And if you need any more clarity, we can definitely go over it for sure.

So, okay, you want to develop an app. You think it has huge potential, but you're kind of figuring out how you could get it to the public, and specifically funding. I mean, how much money do you think it would cost to launch the app?

So that's the thing. I would need to find the right.

Developer.

Just have that first dialogue with those developers to see what it all entails. So, like, the developer costs, and I don't know if you have ever had experience in apps or. Or know anyone that has.

Yeah, I have. I built some. Some apps back in the day. It's been a long time, and I, you know, I think that they're. The answer is the developer costs are going to be all over the place, so I would probably leverage my network. Like, you know, you're. You're in Copy Accelerator. Like, I would probably post there and ask people, hey, does anyone know a good app developer that you can vouch for or recommend? Because I think if you just post for it on, you know, upwork or somewhere like that, you're gonna get people who say, I can build it for $3,000, and you're gonna get people who say, I can build it for $150,000. And you're gonna have no idea, you know, who you should go with because some people will be undercharging and it's gonna be complete garbage. And some people are overcharging because they're just hoping you'll say yes. But I think you gotta. Yeah, the first step is really getting clear on that. Like if. Cause even if you want to raise money right, then you have to come up with a business plan, so to speak. And it doesn't have to be a really crazy formal business plan, but it does have to be why you need to come with, obviously. What is it? What is this app? Why is it going to make a difference? Why do we need it? Why does it matter? You need to have research showing that there's a real need in the market and that people would be likely to want to use the app. It would be good to have like a competitor analysis in there that kind of talks about, hey, here's other people that are doing similar things in the space and here's how well and successful they've done. So it's not just about like the competitor being a threat. It's also showing that there's all this potential because if you're like, oh, three people had an idea similar to this but not as good, and you know, this company sold for a billion dollars and this company is got over 5 million subscribers and all that kind of stuff, then that's gonna help with a potential investor as well. And then you do need to have a breakdown of the cost for everything. What those are a timeline or roadmap kind of like to everything from going into development until to launching. You'd have all that kind of stuff, what the costs are going to be mapped out. And then finally you really would want to have sort of a roadmap for, with goals for kind of, you know, downloads, sales, whatever it is, the different metrics that are important. So if you take taking all that into account, like, that's how you would do it. So you need to have all that to raise money. I'm a big fan of bootstrapping when possible. So I guess the one thing like, because, you know, it's like if you raise a bunch of money, then you're going to have, you know, you have diluted equity and you have a bunch of people who are potentially, you know, going to want to go in different directions and who can wrest control from you in the future and do all these sorts of things. So, you know, depending on how much the app's going to cost. I understand you may need to take money. It's better to bootstrap. But if you can't, then that's fine. But again, I would like to at least know what it is, because even then, if, you know, say it's Gonna cost you $50,000 to launch. Right. And like, that may sound like a lot, sort of. But if it's a really good idea and you have everything I just mentioned, and you go to, like, somebody like Justin or myself or really a lot of the other people who you know in the space now, and you kind of share like, hey, this is my idea. Here's my, like, pitch deck. Here's, like, the numbers and everything like that. I really think that this can be successful and it's going to cost $50,000. Then there's a reasonable chance that I would be like, I don't know about me. It would depend on the app and stuff. But somebody will probably give you $50,000 for 50% or something like that. So you don't necessarily need to make it a whole thing where you're doing a ton of fundraising and raising, rounds of investment and all that kind of stuff. You could probably just get your seed investment from your personal network, but you'd have to know the numbers. And then, Luca, the last thing besides everything I mentioned to you would be the team. Right. So if you're gonna. Because if you show me your business plan and it's like, you're there, and I'm like, okay, well, I know Luca a little bit, and he understands copy and he works hard and he's smart and all that. That's great. But I would love to see if you had two other three other people who are signed on or who you want to hire, and you need money to hire those people, but who have experience taking a similar app and helping it to grow and scale. Because if I see that and I. And I see that experience, then I'm going to be, again, the more uncertainty you can remove from my head, that if I give you money, I'm going to get an roi. The more you can make me feel like that is a real possibility, the more likely I am to want to give you money. So does that answer your question? Some. And help.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, because I really have no idea. And I don't know, like, as far as seed capital, like, how much percent of the company would you want to give away? And, like. Yeah. So this is obviously awesome and amazing to hear because I'm coming from Zero Clue.

Yeah. And as far as how much you give away. I mean, of course you want to give away as little as possible, but it also is going to depend on, like, you know, your background and experience. As somebody who's never launched, like, an app before and who maybe doesn't have a ton of experience, I feel like to get that money, you're probably gonna need to give away a higher percentage of equity. You know, it's possible you could go to five people. I think I'm using $50,000 arbitrarily, but, I mean, I think you could go to, like, five people and ask each of them for 10,000. For 10%, because. Yeah, then you still have. Or, you know, maybe you do 49. You keep 51%, whatever it is. But, like, you know, and then that way it's a little bit more. There's more diverse people. Because the one thing that you may run into as well is if I. Even if I give you 50%, like, or so if you give me 50%, like, I don't really want to become your partner. Right. I don't want to be on a bunch of calls. I don't want to be. I don't have to take on all that responsibility, so. Which is the same thing with most people, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just kidding.

What did you say? Oh, yeah, no, but it's the same thing. If you look at, like, Perry Belcher and the guys at Digital Marketer and what they've done. Actually, the same thing. They've talked about that publicly where they used to try to take, like, half of a company, and then they realized that they didn't want half of a company because the expectations on them were way too high. They would rather have 10 or 20% of the company and be able to contribute strategically, but not have to have this burden of people looking at them as some 50, 50 partner. So, yeah, that's just something to consider as well. And then Christopher Ogle did mention the Lean Startup by Eric Reiss. If you haven't read that, that is a really good book. So you should. You should check that book out.

Okay. And then last part about that question, like you mentioned, competitor analysis would. If there is, like, an idea in a separate niche, but it's like, similar. Similar idea, would that be a good example as well as to show, like, hey, it did well here. It's virtually a similar idea, but just in a different space?

Yeah, I think so. I think because again, it got overused. But this idea of. It's the Uber of whatever. Right. And I don't Think we want to say that anymore because that became almost a joke because it was so overused. But being able to talk about how you're taking a proven model in one industry but now you're going to kind of disrupt another are or apply it to another, I think is something that investors are very interested in. Another thing that investors are very interested in is network amplifying effects. So that meaning when the more people who use the app that the kind of better the app becomes, the more valuable it becomes, the more impact it has. The kind of the self feedback loop, that's something that they're really interested in. I had a conversation maybe a year ago with one of my really good friends. Her husband was the co founder of FanDuel, which was a betting company that got to a billion dollar valuation. And I talked to him about what are investors looking at. That was one of them was the network amplifying effect. So that the more people who use the app or the system, the stronger it becomes and the more engaged it becomes and the more people use it. If you can build that into your pitch as well, then I think that that's going to be very valuable and then help you out too.

And how does that relate to like affiliate marketing? I mean it's virtually similar or the exact same idea.

Right.

Just not lists.

Well, what do you mean by that.

As far as the network amplifying effect just using your network and asking them to mail out or is there some sort of way to kind of use like the various networks that we know and the list sizes that we have to kind of help with that?

Yeah, I think that I wouldn't look at affiliate marketing and network amplifying effects as being exactly similar. I think network amplifying effects is more. The more people who use Uber as passengers, the more drivers they're gonna be. The more drivers are gonna be. The less time you're gonna have to wait, the more people are gonna see that and want that and download the app and use it. And so there's like a feedback loop. Right. So that's what I mean. More by the network amplifying effect aspect regarding affiliate marketing though. Yeah, like you can get leverage or get more traffic by having more affiliates driving traffic to the app. And that could be part of your business model for sure. But even there it has to. The economics have to make sense. Like if you tell me we're going to Pay affiliates a $5 CP download, I know what the abbreviation is for that, which people do. There's people who pay a CPA so cost per acquisition, they'll basically pay a commission for every time somebody downloads an app. And that's a whole huge part of affiliate marketing and marketing in general. And a lot of guys are doing that kind of some shady stuff too, because it's like the app has spyware on it or whatever. But it isn't always that way. So you could totally apply that to your app idea also. But you know, you'd have to just prove that that's a real model, that people, if you paid them that amount of money, they would be willing to, you know, drive traffic to get people to download and engage with your app. So you just have to be able to prove that.

Cool. Yeah, I mean, that pretty much answers everything. The only other question I would be is like, if I ask for developers or anyone like that or funding, do I just kind of get on a call and do more of like a one on one to kind of present the idea? I guess so.

Right? Yeah. I mean, I think that if you're going to use your network to get. Well, yeah, for funding, for sure. I mean, you'd probably create like a pitch deck and then be like, hey, here's my pitch deck. Like, you know, check it out. And then I'd love to get on a call and kind of walk you through it. And, and even if, you know, you can be like, even if you're not gonna invest, I'd still love to hear pick your brain and get feedback and your opinion and all that kind of stuff. Cause that helps to alleviate this thing of like, ugh, I gotta get on this call. Luca, he's gonna, he wants me to invest in this company. I don't know if I want to or not. But if you're like, I kind of, you know, like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't pretend like I wouldn't act like you. It's just a feedback thing. Cause that's like disingenuous. But I'd be like, of course I would love you to invest. But at the same time, if, you know, even if you're not going to invest, like just to get your insights and kind of stress test, this pitch with you would be really valuable to me. And I think if you do it that way, you'll get a lot more people who will kind of hear out your pitch and your idea and then, yeah, what Christopher said to. Yeah, definitely NDAs before you send the pitch deck. Cause like, I get pitch stuff pretty regularly and I'll sign the NDA for that stuff too.

But yeah, okay, awesome. Well, yeah, that was great. Thanks, Stefan. You're the man.

Hey, my pleasure, man.

Sweet. All right, next up, we have Peter Cemis. I think I pronounced that correctly. He asked, what are the best ways to find a unique mechanism and big idea in a more saturated niche. Peter, you're free to talk.

What's up, Peter?

How are you?

Good, man. How you doing? Good, good. Yeah.

I mean, like, so like, weight loss.

Is a big niche, obviously, or massive niche.

I'll say big.

And like keto or stuff like that.

Like, how would you find a unique mechanism as well as kind of a.

Big idea in those kinds of niches that have been like, you know, attempted.

Again and again and clearly they keep converting.

So, yeah, so I would do. I mean, for health, it's kind of easy because, like, I would go to science daily.com and type in whatever, you know, like a keto or fat loss or weight loss or whatever. And if you do that, you'll see a ton of it. Basically, it takes all of the new discoveries around, like, a certain topic and it gives you, like, a pretty easy to understand summary with, like, quotes from the lead scientists and the people who did the studies, and then it will link to the actual study as well. So if you do that, I mean, that's what if I'm doing a new health product, Science Daily is one of the very first places that I would go. Yeah, it's a huge kind of hack and pretty much always where I go for health. Then on top of that, when you're doing research in RNBC and you're looking through forums, you will see people talking about, hey, has anybody tried this? Has anybody tried that? And if you go kind of do enough of that research, you'll start seeing people talking about interesting solutions or remedies. And this isn't just in weight loss. It can be in almost any niche or category that you may not have heard of before. And then if you kind of do some googling and you look and find, like, do other people. There are a lot of people talking about this, and if they aren't, or if there aren't a lot of products to talk about it, then you can kind of go down a rabbit hole there. So, for example, and I think this is in the video for the weight loss research example that I do in rnbc, I was looking at one of the forum threads from 2012, and people were talking about keto in there, but keto didn't really get big or blow up until 2017, 2018. So it's like, man, If I had been doing my research for this back then and got to this forum, I may have seen ketogenic. What is that? And googled it and ended up creating this. I could have been the person who started the keto niche. So that stuff exists, but it exists in real estate forums, financial and investing forums. People will talk about unique or fringe strategies or things that aren't mainstream. And then if you take those, can look at them, write down things that are interesting or that you've never heard of and that you don't see being brought up a lot, but that do seem interesting. And then you do more research on those things and how they work. That's a really good way to kind of get. Develop a unique mechanism as well. If those things end up having legs underneath them and are things that seem valuable. Okay, cool.

Thank you.

Yeah, my pleasure. Sweet.

Awesome.

By the way, I just took a quick survey in the chat and people are loving this, man. People are really learning a lot.

Good. That's awesome. I'm enjoying it too. I'm, you know, it's fun. I'm talking a lot but, you know, I'm enjoying it. It's fun. I get to, I like being able to kind of answer questions and stuff. So I'm glad it's going well here.

Yeah. And there's people who are saying in the chat they're like, you know, there's a lot of radio shows where people will shortcut the question, like to kind of go through all of them. But they really like that you're taking the time to answer the questions in depth and they can really feel that you actually care. And it's true.

You do.

Thanks, man. Yeah, I do. And, and that's what's cool about doing it this way is that we can do that. You know, I mean I like, I'm going to do a hard stop at like 11:30 my time, so I have about a half an hour more. So if I don't get to every question, it's going to be annoying. But it is what it is. But at the same time I don't want to. Yeah, I don't want to give some BS surface level answer. That is maybe a good sound bite, but that doesn't help. I want everyone who is on this show and who listens to, to the show to really walk away with stuff that they can implement or that really helps them. And so that means going deeper. So it's a lot of fun to do that for sure.

So next question here is from Christopher Ogle. Did we Already have him on. I feel like we did.

No, I think he asked it in chat and then that's Right. Right.

Okay, cool. So Christopher asks, where's the best place to find scalable clients who need sales letters? I feel confident contacting them via cold email and even with a small portfolio, but how would I actually find the companies, especially if they don't have a sales page created?

Cool. What's up, Christopher?

Hey, Stefan, can you hear me okay?

Yeah, I can. Pretty very clear, actually.

Awesome. I'm going to be super quick because I've got the little one here and she's getting hungry.

I think you.

You know what it's like, so.

All right.

So, yeah, the question, as Ed mentioned, was just about how to find those companies. I mean, if you had a list.

Where would you go?

Would you just go out? If they have a website, for example.

And they have a product but they.

Don'T have a specific sales page, is that enough?

Or are you looking for the ones.

That are already converting and trying to improve what it is that they already have? Because I feel comfortable contacting them by cold email. I've been doing that for a long time and I have a small portfolio. But, you know, I feel it's enough to actually start reaching out. But how would you actually go and find them? I mean, could you go on to Clickbank and find offers there or where would you actually find some of these companies, scalable clients to contact?

Yeah, I would, I would. A couple of things. So I don't know if you've seen, but in the Justin and Stefan Talk copy Facebook group, there's, I think John, who's on the. Who's on this call, or as he was earlier, he made a list of lists which is a ton of different health companies and actually not just health, financial survival, everything. And it's like a list of all of these companies and it includes their contact, the contact info for the company, the web address, all this stuff here. So that's like an incredible resource. I just bumped it in the Justin the Stuff and Talk copy group yesterday for somebody else. But that's one place you can go because you'll see who the owners are, who the contacts are. No, it's a free group, max. Just if you go on Facebook, it's just Justin and Stefan taught copy. So Ed, you could, you could share a link or just type it out there too. But yeah, it's a really amazing resource that John and some other people have collaborated on. And so that's a place where I would, I would do that and then within that too, in the group. I think if you have specific offers or because even if you go on clickbank and you see offers that you think are interesting, I would probably leverage Facebook groups like that and be like, hey, does anybody know who's behind this offer or who the contact is here? And I would just be asking my personal network. And I think if you do that, then you should be able to get answers to some of those and then from there it'll be easy to be able to reach out and contact them. I'm a big, big believer in like kind of leveraging your network as much as possible. It's almost like the lazy man's, you know, shortcut to this stuff. So that's kind of how I would approach that. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, absolutely, it really does. I mean, the group has been fantastic. I mean, I only joined probably two, three weeks ago and there's just value in there every single day. And such a great community. Everyone's in there to help each other out. So I totally agree with that and leveraging the network. So. Okay, perfect. One quick part to this question. I have a client who I helped in the cold email space and they do about 50 million a year in revenue and they have this product, it's incredible. It's like a vinegar weed killer and it's killing it on Amazon. Now they don't have a sales page set up for their actual website or it's pretty basic. So with that leveraging the network, could you actually reach out to them and say, hey, I know your products killing on Amazon. Could we actually build out a sales page for this particular product that you already know is selling well on another platform? Could that just, could that be another door you could, you could go through?

Yeah, I would, I would definitely do that. And you've already, you've already worked, done stuff with them, you've already helped with their emails.

Yeah, I helped book them calls with like Walmart and Walgreens and some of the other big billion dollar brands and stuff through cold emails. So that's how I kind of started with copy was writing, writing emails, cold emails. And then I now want to move into doing the actual sales letters and things like that and conversion. So I could reach back out and say, you know, hey, look, I know you've got these products, I've got these amazing eco friendly products in a couple of different, you know, sub niches and they're smashing it on Amazon. They're just making a ton of revenue and their website is just pretty. Pretty basic. So I just thought that might be. Might be an avenue to go down.

Yeah, I put a link in the chat that I think Justin, Justin Goff shared with me a few, maybe a month back. It's for a, like an eco friendly. I think it's like a laundry detergent but. And they're called. I think the domain is something about water liberty.com or the links in the chat there, but they're kind of doing that exact thing. They have a somewhat direct response oriented kind of sales letter and I'm pretty sure they're doing. And they're definitely doing at least seven figures, if not eight figures on that. So, yeah, I think something like that could totally do well with a sales letter. And I think given that they're already smashing on Amazon, they already know and trust you. I think if you show them some examples of other people in their sales letters and how that's going and then you position yourself as the expert, I would absolutely do that. I think that's a very easy kind of no brainer thing to do. Perfect.

That's it. Thank you very much and yeah, really appreciate all the, all the content that you've been putting out and for this call. It's brilliant stuff. Thanks.

Cool. Yeah, my pleasure, Christopher. And then it looks like Luca just shared the spreadsheet in the chat as well. So, Ed, will you keep like, kind of like almost like a show notes thing where you kind of keep track of like links that get shared in the chat too?

Yeah, for sure. Let me, let me get on that right now. Dude. I'm like your Jamie, bro. I'm your Jamie. All right, next up we have Ian Petit. He says I don't have a lot of time throughout the week to write, though I think my copy chops are pretty decent. Is it better to just focus on your cold outreach method and try to land my dream clients rather than split my time between that and chasing down less desirable gigs on places like Upwork and Cult of Copy Job Board.

What's up, Ian?

Hey, Stefan. How's it going, man?

It's going good. I've always. I'm guessing it's Ian Pettit and not Petit. It is. Yeah. You got it, man. Oh, good. I wanted to.

I'm used to French.

Cool. So, yeah, I think my first question on that, Ian, would be where are you as much as you're comfortable sharing, like, kind of where are you at financially? Right. Cause it's one thing if you sort of need like money, like, and so you need to bring in as many gigs as possible. But if you're, you know, if you have the luxury of being more selective, then I would be more selective. So kind of curious about where you're at with that.

Well, so I've got a full time gig, I'm a design engineer by day and right now the base pay, you know, I'm in like the Midwest. So the 60k I'm making with like a wife and two kids and a mortgage is like enough to get by. But you know, the job lifestyle is not my thing. So you know, I'm really, I, because I have such limited time, I'm really looking for a faster track. So you know, while I've invested in courses for myself to kind of get those coffee chops up to scratch, it's not like I'm dying for money, like I can't pay the bills next month.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And what kind of like portfolio do you have right now?

I've done a few like YouTube scripts and a, like a product explainer video for Dan Locke. I've done like a website, like all the web copy for like a sheet metal manufacturing site. I've helped the guy with his like his resume. So just like here and there, little gigs and then everything else has been like spec copy or like sort of test like assignment stuff for the courses that I've taken.

Right.

So there's nothing really under my feet that I can stand on and say, oh hey, like here's a, here's a sales letter I wrote that crushed it. Or here's an email sequence I wrote that the open rate was 30% or anything like that.

Got it. But you do have a portfolio and some samples and you, you feel like you're, I mean if you're going to rate your copy kind of skill from a 1 to a 10 and don't, don't be like modest, be honest, you know, like where would you put it? Like right now.

Probably I'll use a decimal. I'll go seven and a half. I feel like the structure and everything that I've learned from taking courses and reading online and following you guys stuff, I already had a good grasp of English language and how to write, how to put a sentence together and then the more tactical things as far as psychology and market research that I've learned since then, I think, you know, it's just the experience that would have to take me up, you know, to where I think I really need to be to charge what I want to charge, you know.

Right. Yeah. Okay. So given that and the fact that you are, you know, financially comfortable and comfortable meaning, again, not stressed about paying the mortgage or where the, you know, bills are gonna. Where the money's gonna come for the bills and things like that. I would, I would probably. And if you feel like you're a seven and a half and you just need more experience with the right clients, then yeah, I think it's fine to be focused on the right clients. I think, you know, I would focus on that and then doing that outreach. And then if you're not having any results with that, which I mean, hopefully you will at that point, maybe you go back to looking for some just other paying clients just to keep building up your portfolio. Because if you get just one kind of like mediocre client, but then they happen to blow up, then that gives you a ton of credibility too, Right. If you kind of get on the wave at the crest. So. But I think your instincts are right, you know, as long as you feel like your copy shops are solid enough that if you do get the opportunity for somebody that you're gonna, you know, do well and not like, kind of. Because the one thing is like the whole thing we teach about getting like your dream clients and doing the cold outreach and all that, like, it really, it really works. But of course you have to be good, right, because you give them something that sucks, then you kind of burn that.

Yeah, you got to be able to deliver.

Yeah, sure. For sure.

Yeah. Excellent. Cool. Well, that, that's good because, like, honestly, I don't really like wasting my time too much with like a little onesie twosie. Like, I closed a guy on doing a sales page for his kind of biz op thing marketed to kind of middle aged women, and I'm like, I don't know how much potential it has. And I was going to do 300 for the landing page and he's like, I can do 100 and maybe later. And I kind of like the. Is it the Derek Sivers, it's either hell yes or no approach. And so I think that's kind of what I'd like to. The approach I'd like to take going forward. So I'm glad to hear that you think that my instincts are all right. So.

Yeah, I totally, I totally do. I think you're. You're spot on there.

Cool, man. Thank you.

Yep, My pleasure. Thank you.

Sweet. We've got a question here from Marcus Sortillas on your thoughts on applying RNBC to writing webinars and selling from stage.

Sweet. What's up? Marcus, how are you? Yeah, I'm doing good. Good.

Yeah.

You'll give any more? I mean it's pretty self explanatory but is that something that you're doing currently? Are you and would you be doing it for clients or is it something that. Where you want to be doing the webinars for yourself and selling from stage yourself?

Yeah, I'd be interested in like doing.

Webinars for myself and like selling from.

Stage mostly like courses or coaching, things like that.

Cool. Yeah, I think RNBC actually works really well for that. If you look at the pitch I did in Austin for our Copy Accelerator event, this was back in September and it was our two day event and I pitched it, I sold. That was me selling from the stage for the first time in my life. So it was like less than a year ago, but I don't know, I sold. I think we had like 30 memberships at the time that we sold and it was like something like basically it worked out to like close to a million dollars like from stage. I sold him one picture presentation and yeah, and what's cool is I actually really. If you look at. I know you don't have access to it in front of you but if you look at the pitch it's like pretty much my sales letter outline. So it was like the big promise I think it was the camera was like the. It was like the X essential ingredients that you need to scale on cold traffic. And so it was talked about the pain point of not being able to scale on cold traffic promising the solution of here's how you're going to do went into the idea of these different. We use the mechanism being it's not just the ingredients. So things like having a converting offer or high converting sales page, having write upsells all this kind of stuff, but it was how you put them all together. So I use the example of dynamite in my presentation I talked about how if you look at the original recipe for dynamite there is only three ingredients in it. And yet if you mix, if you just take those three ingredients and pour them into a bowl like nothing happens, right? It doesn't like the bowl doesn't explode, but it's how you put them together correctly. And that's what Copy Accelerator does. It gives you. Not only do you have these ingredients and these trainings on these ingredients, but then we show you how to put them together in the right way so that you get explosive results. And there's a bunch of like social proof and so it really kind of Followed my sales letter outline actually very closely. And what was cool is when I did that, it was like 200 people in the room. And even the copy accelerator members who were already, you know, in the Mastermind, they were watching the pitch too, and they pretty much all like, loved it because they're like, holy shit. You just used your sales letter outline in this, like, PowerPoint and to enroll a bunch of people. So I think you can totally do it from stage. And then the one other thing too, Marcus, is with a webinar. Same thing. Ed, Actually, I'm gonna let you chime in because you've done. You've used RMBC to do a lot of webinars, including for Dan Locke and some other kind of big people in the space.

I would love to hear from Ed.

Yeah, if you don't mind, Ed.

Yeah, for sure. So using RNBC for webinars, it works really well from what I found. You just have to tweak the format a little bit because normally to me, the webinar either is like, you know, three secrets or so it's like, if you think about it, if you've read Michael Masterson's or Mark Ford, I don't know what his alias is there. If you read great leads, you'd know, you know, secrets lead, which is basically a webinar. Webinar is basically just a secret lead, right? But yes, letter. So this would be the same approach, but you would be selling the process. So I think Agora, they don't quote me on this, but I know that they have different types of leads for different types of offers. So on a webinar you would use a systems lead. So it's like, it's selling a systems, like, here's the first step, here's the next step, here's the next step. Or they sell it secretly, which is, hey, here are three secrets to do xyz. So that's literally pretty much the only change you'd have for our embassy to do webinars.

Oh, that gives a lot of insight.

Thank you.

My pleasure.

Awesome. Thank you, Ed. Cool. Marcus, you're good. Yes, thanks.

That was really helpful.

Cool. My pleasure, Ed. Thanks for chiming in there too.

Hey, man, my pleasure.

So, Ed, I guess with the webinars, it's like the cause really, like, it's more explicit about these, like, tangible benefits. Right. What are you going to get from watching this webinar? I mean, you kind of do that with a VSL too. You should be doing that, right. With a long form sales letter, but with Webinar especially, it's kind of like you're going to see three secrets that can help you to do XYZ or even my thing from Stage. It was like at the copy accelerator event and it was like the three essential ingredients you need to explode your offer on cold traffic. So that actually could have made a really good webinar too. Probably because it was the same thing. Right? Like that. It seems like that's pretty transferable between a webinar and selling from Stage as well. At least from the way I'm kind of. I understand it.

Yeah, for sure. I actually want to. So one of my friends the other day asked me actually I want to get your opinion on this Stefan. He asked me what's the difference between a VSL and a webinar?

Yeah, I think that the differences for me, if we're talking, of course it depends if it's like a pre recorded evergreen webinar or a kind of live webinar. Because with live, I think one of the differences is either way you're trying to create the sense of interaction and community and like listening and things like that. And then I think the other one is that with a webinar you're generally more explicitly educating and you're kind of telling them like I'm here to educate you. Whereas with a bsl, I think you are, you are going to educate them on the real cause of the problem, the real solution. But there's maybe more focus on putting these different hooks and prodding, curiosity and all that kind of stuff. I mean, but even as I say that, I feel like a good webinar should have that stuff too. So you know, honestly, like I feel like they're really similar. You know, there's. The close is still kind of similar. I mean the call to action is a little different maybe, maybe not. But I honestly just feel like they're really similar. I don't, I don't see a huge difference. What do you think Ad based on your experience? I'm curious if you, if you had an answer for your friend.

Yeah, so the way that I described it was with a, with the vsl. Most of the time you're not selling like high ticket like most webinars.

That's a good point.

Sell to like, you know what one like 501k, 3k, 5k, 10k.

Right.

Whatever it is. So I feel like a lot more belief work has to be done around people being able to get a certain result.

That's a good point. There's a lot more social Proof. Right. There's a lot more case studies. Like you saw testimonials in the sales letter, VSL on webinars. It's like example after example after example after example of people who have used the same information or the secrets I'm giving you or the systems or whatever, and gotten results. So you're really stacking that social proof up.

Yeah, for sure. And the way that I described it was it's like you actually have to change somebody's entire worldview around whatever the thing that you're selling is, basically, and how they relate to that thing and how viable it is and how easy it is. I mean, you do have to do that for a vsl, but it's different. I don't really. I'm honestly having a hard time putting it to words. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I'm curious because I do feel like you, you know the goal of the mechanism with a video sales letter or a tech sales letter, it's kind of the same thing. You are trying to change your worldview. But I think maybe the difference is with a lot of what you're selling in a sales letter, if it's like a product that costs $49 or $97 and you're saying, hey, take this and use this and you'll get results or things will change maybe just because of the price point alone, it's easier for somebody to accept that or to feel like, well, I'm kind of 5050 on if this will work or not, but I don't mind taking the risk. Whereas if you're selling something for $1,000 or $5,000 or whatever it is, and you're saying, hey, do this and your life will change, it's just a much bigger promise, so there's more of a burden behind it, Right?

Yeah, that's a really good point. Like, anchoring, like a bigger. Like you said, like a bigger promise, a bigger life shift. It's like pre framing a bigger change in their life with whatever the big idea is.

Yeah. Like, if I'm saying, like in a. Hey, I'm teaching you how to get freelancing. Clients buy my book or my course, and it's like $99. And you're like, okay, I'm gonna try this out. He's got a refund policy, so if it doesn't work, fine. But it's easy for them to say yes. If I'm like, hey, I'm gonna show you how you can make $250,000 in the next year by getting high paying freelance clients that are coming to you and you're not having to do any of the work and blah, blah, blah, right? Then it's like, bullshit. And. And by the way, it's gonna cost $5,000, right, for me to show you how to do this. There's a lot more of a skepticism and, yeah, more of a barrier, I think. And so that's where I think with a webinar, you just have to go a lot harder with stacking all of that proof and really make them believe that they actually can do it. Because you're making bigger promises in a webinar, I think, is a big part of it, too. Even though you're making big promises in the sales letter, they're like, you know, they're not as big a lot of times of a webinar, like a real estate webinar or whatever. And then. And then getting people to believe that it's possible because people. I think people believe I can take a pill and my blood sugar will go down. And, like, it's not that hard to get somebody to believe that because, like, they get medications from their doctors, and that's what can happen. And if you're like, hey, these natural ingredients have been proven to help with blood sugar as well, then they're like, well, okay, I mean, that makes sense. I do that. But if you're like, hey, you can own your own real estate investing business and you can start flipping houses with no money down and you can become a millionaire, and they're like, I didn't graduate high school. I can't do any of that shit. Like, this guy's, you know, maybe other people can do it, but not me. It's just like a way bigger barrier to get somebody to believe that they really can do that sort of thing. So I think that's a huge kind of component that goes into the difference between the two.

I love that. That's so cool, man. I totally agree. So there is a question in the chat about the book that you and I recommend about breaking through glass ceilings and beliefs. I just want to, you know, let the record show for listeners later on that that book is called the Big Leap. It's incredible. And it'll be in the show notes. I already have that written down.

Yeah, it's a huge, huge book. I recommend that to a lot of people. A lot of people. It's a really important book for people to read.

Cool.

Oh, okay. Next question here from Gurlene Singh, is, do you still struggle with imposter syndrome, or did you Ever.

So I definitely did. Hey, Gurling, go ahead and. Do you want to give me a context to that question?

Hi.

Hey.

Well, it's weird speaking verbally instead of email.

I know, right? Yeah.

I was just wondering because, like, so from my end, because I'm a new copywriter, right? So I'm already kind of, I guess, experiencing impossible imposter syndrome. It's kind of like, oh, do I actually know what I'm doing? Do I actually know how to write copy? And so then I was just wondering, when people look at, I guess, someone like you and that we see as, like, super successful in copy, do you still struggle with imposter syndrome? Even though from like, my standpoint, it's like, oh, no. Like, he's got it. He's got it down.

Cool. No, that makes perfect sense. When it comes to writing sales copy, I don't really struggle with imposter syndrome anymore. I did, certainly. And there's a fear of, yeah, do I really know what I'm doing? Does it make, you know, am I really the right person for this job? Am I going to do a good job? All that kind of stuff. You know, one thing that helped me when I was going through that is realizing how few people actually know what they're doing. It's like, the first time I realized this was actually in, gosh, I was 19 or 20, and I was involved in, like, a music. Like a record label, music startup that ultimately failed. But I remember we had a. We were part of, like, a nonprofit that had a music venue, and then we had a record store inside of the music venue, and they'd have their monthly kind of executive leadership meetings. And because we had a record store, we were invited to those. So I kind of got to come and be a part of that. And I just remember sitting at a table of all of these, like, adults, and I felt like a kid. And there was these people with, you know, MBAs and advanced degrees in marketing and all this stuff. And I remember hearing some of their ideas and some of their things they're talking about. And I was like, these are the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. And then other people be like, okay, yeah, let's do that, and be, oh, my gosh, no, don't do that. And I'm like, you know, like, I'm like, these people have, like, all of these qualifications, and, you know, they'd have consultants who they're paying, and they had no idea what they were doing either. And that helped me a lot. Girling, because it's the same thing. Even with copy. I mean, even most of the, you know, top. A lot of the copywriters out there who you see publicly, it's like people love talking about their wins, but they don't really talk about their failures. And even, like, the really high profile ones have failures too. I mean, I still have. It's like every single thing I write is. Is, you know, the greatest copy ever. I try for it to be. But, you know, there's a couple of things in the last year that have, like, kind of been duds or, you know, I mean, my duds are not like complete bombs just because of my level of experience and using RNBC and all that kind of stuff. But they're not like home runs either. So that's one thing I would look at. And then, yeah, I think, like, I just. But I have, you know, the other thing I have with imposter syndrome, and when I deal with that is I just sort of try to, like, embrace it as much as I can. Because usually you get imposter syndrome because you're doing something new or different or you're stepping out of your comfort zone or a lot. And so if I think of it that way, I kind of think, man, like, this is really, like, cool, and it's okay. I give myself permission to feel nervous or afraid or whatever, and I'm like, that's cool that I'm feeling this way because it means that I'm doing something big or different or really stepping out of my. Yeah, my comfort zone.

So you embrace the discomfort, basically.

Yeah, I just kind of embrace it. And, and I do think about, like, what's the worst that's going to happen? Right. Like, I don't know if you ever do that, but, like, say that, like, the copy I write bombs, what's going to happen? Well, they're not going to hire me again. Okay, well, what happens if they don't hire me again? Well, I'll feel bad because I had a good opportunity. Like, yeah, like, all right, well, what's going to happen after that? Nothing really. Like, it's not like if you write something that doesn't do well, you know, clients are expecting that to happen, frankly, you know, they don't really. They're hopeful and they get excited to test things, but they're, you know, they may be like, some of the bad clients might kind of be like, mad at you that it's not converting, but it's just like, it doesn't mean you won't get more clients in the future. And if you can, you know, it's really just reality. Think about if you were a. You know, as a. As a dude. I'm gonna use a sports analogy, but it's like, you know, if Michael Jordan missing a bunch of game winning shots, but no one talks about those ones, right? They talk about the ones that, you know, he made. And, you know, Tiger woods missing a really important putt or, you know, even like the best the road at what they do in any niche or area. Like, there's like nobody who bats a thousand or, you know, who goes like 10 for 10. Even the best out of the best are gonna, like, miss, miss sometimes. And so, you know, if they're. If they're gonna not hit a home run every time, you know, is it okay for you to not hit a home run every time? You know?

So I guess if I understand what you're saying, it's kind of like you step back and kind of look at it objectively, and it's kind of like, oh, it's not going to be the end of the world, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's really like, what is the actual worst case scenario, right? Because again, in your head, you're like, well, if this doesn't go well, they're not gonna hire me again. And you get really nervous about it. But then it's like, all right, well, what happens if they don't hire you again? And it's like, well, there'll be other opportunities, you know? And when you think about it that way, you're like, okay, well, I guess it's not that big of a deal. It's not like they're gonna be like, oh, my God, you're a fraud. Like, what. What we're afraid of, imposter syndrome, is being called out for some deficiency we think we have. Like, we're afraid that they're gonna be like, you know, girlen, you're a fraud and a phony. You have no business writing. You're a terrible person. Your parents never loved you. Like, you know, I'm gonna go post everywhere that nobody should work with you, right? All this kind of stuff.

And, like, actually, not that my parents don't love me, but, like, the whole syndrome thing.

No, totally. But, like, that's not what actually happens. When was the last time you saw somebody, like, posting on Facebook? I hired this writer and it didn't go well. And they're a piece of shit and don't ever work. You know, nobody does that. Like, you know, so that's where I think, yeah, if I Think about what the actual. Not, like, what my. What my nightmare in my head worst case scenario is, but, like, what the actual worst case scenario is. And I realize that it's really not that bad. That kind of takes some of the pressure off of you as well.

Okay. Kind of, I guess, like a part two for this question would be, when did it go away from you? Did it come from, like, when you started making a lot of money from it or more like just kind of gaining confidence? Like, oh, I actually do know what I'm doing.

Yeah. I think for copywriting specifically, they kind of go hand in hand. I mean, there is a confidence that comes from making money and making other people money and seeing consistent results. So that helped a lot. But, you know, honestly. And I talked about this on the offer call that Justin Goff, and I did that. You were on whenever that was two days ago. Yeah. Like, I had a period in 20, in 2018, right before I started copying Accelerator, where I kind of lost my confidence a little bit because I'd had. Even though I'd had this great track record and sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of things at that time. I talked about it on the call, but for people that call, but for people who weren't there, Facebook got really difficult to be able to run anything direct response on it. It was after Cambridge Analytica, and they really tightened up. And so I was trying to write this Facebook compliant copy that was pretty bad copy. It was bland and boring. And I honestly feel like I was kind of going through the motions on it as well. Yeah, my shitty Bob Dylan period is what I mentioned. And it's true. Right. And so then I was writing stuff and it wasn't doing that good. And then, plus, I had promised people that I would get them traffic because that was my model, which was a super stupid model, by the way, because if you write something and give it to the client, and then if it's good, they'll figure it out, they get traffic. And if they don't get traffic, that's their problem. When you promise to get them traffic to their offer, then, like, even if you write something good, if you can't fulfill on that promise, they're still mad at you. So you just created a second thing for the client to be pissed off about. Right. But because of that, and I was struggling to figure out what to do, I kind of felt like I started losing my confidence a little even then. So I don't know if it ever goes away, but the way I looked at it, when that Happened was, you know, to kind of push through it and to be like, look, if I keep. If I go back to. Honestly, it was like, go back to the fundamentals. Like, I have a framework that I know works in rnbc. So I went back to that and I kind of keep kind of grinding and kind of, you know, just not give up, essentially. And then all I needed was like one good win to feel like I was back. So it was a momentum aspect. Right. So then I wrote something for. I forget who the. Well, I wrote like a blood sugar thing that started doing really well on Facebook and I was like, oh, like, awesome. And then I wrote for V shred and wrote burn for them. And then. Awesome. That did well. And then suddenly I realized that I could write, you know, good, long form copy that told stories that was emotionally compelling and do all these things that I'd historically always done. And for the right companies who knew what they were doing, that they wouldn't just. They could figure out how to get on Facebook and run traffic. I didn't have to completely castrate my copy in order to do that. And so I was able to work through that. And that was the last time I had a crisis in confidence. But I mean, that was like two years ago, so it wasn't that long ago, you know.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, thank you.

Yeah, I hope that helps. I know it was a little all over the place, but I mean, you.

Know, it was good insight.

Okay, awesome. So. All right, we're two minutes over, so, I mean, I do really. Of course I want to keep going, but I guess it's good to leave everyone wanting more here. I just want to say. So we're going to wrap up in a second, but I want to thank everybody who joined me live here today. Really appreciate it. Appreciate all the questions. If we didn't get to your question, you know, come back next week and we will then. And I'm sorry that I wasn't able to get to it here. I want to give a huge thank you to Ed as well. Ed, thank you so much for helping to moderate and being a part of this conversation too, Ed.

It's my pleasure, dude. Thank you for having me. Happy to help.

Cool. Awesome. And then for people who are going to listen to the recording of the show or watch on YouTube, if you want to interact with me more, the best thing to do is get on my email list, which you can do by going to stefanpaul. Georgi.com subscribe, do that. Get on my email list. I send emails every single day, which are value driven emails. And from that email list, you can also get links to register for future calls. So if you want to attend and ask your questions live, you can do that. So with that, we'll sign off. This was the Road to a Billion radio show with Stefan, Georgi and my wonderful host, Ed Ray, co hosts or whatever. And thank you again, guys, really appreciate it.