[RTB:E11] "Not Letting The Moment Define You" - The Road to a Billion with Stefan Georgi

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi, and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call and radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. The reason for the name is because my products that I've been copy for, whether my own or for clients, will hit a billion dollars in sales this year. And I also want to make an impact on the lives of a billion people over the next 10 years. And by impact, I mean helping them with their emotional, mental and financial well being. I'm going to start taking calls in about five minutes or from now. By calls, I really mean questions. So the way it works is, you know, we're here on Zoom on a webinar. So if you have a question you want me to answer live, just put it into the Q and A section and then Ed will go through and select questions to be answered. Also, if you see questions in the Q and A that you like, then upvote them, give them a like. So we tend to kind of prioritize there, although we will try to get to some that people didn't give as much love to as well. And speaking of Ed, Ed had asked me. I did already give Ed co host to this time Luffy. I'm on it. But Ed asked me to introduce him today. So I am joined by my wonderful co host and friend, Ed Ray. Ed Ray is a boy wonder who likes green rooms and backgrounds. He likes Green day and green rooms. He is a former, how would you say, a former marketing whiz. For a well known person who now doesn't get his is probably kind of went astray. But Ed left before that happened because he's smart. He is one of the top Facebook compliance experts on the planet. Even at his young age, he's a brilliant marketer, a brilliant guy, a great friend, and someone who provides wonderful wisdom on this show. So I'm always so thankful to have Ed with me on the Road to a billion. Ed, was that an okay introduction? I mean, it wasn't perfect.

No. I really appreciate the kind words and dude, I should just have you intro me for now. That's way better than me saying it just.

Just in life, right? That makes sense.

Before I go on a date, Stephan, just randomly call a girl, be like, yo. So let me tell you about this Ed guy real quick and just lay it on him.

I feel like I'd be more Like. Like, the father of a girl comes over, I'd be like, what are your intentions with my Ed? And I would give her the talk. Like, I want you to treat him nicely, and I want ed back by 10. You know, I'd really have to lay down the law.

And then you could pull the 9 out of 10 women recommend Ed.

You know, I would definitely do that as well. So we'll take calls in a second here, and for everybody who's, you know, on. Always so appreciative. So everybody here on Zoom or who's watching on Facebook Live. As we start, I am going to begin by doing my sort of opening monologue, which is something that I do before every show, where I kind of talk for, like, five minutes or so and I'm laughing at the chat. But, yeah, today the kind of opening monologue is about not letting the moment define you. And what I'm really talking about here is we've all seen those movies where, you know, there's a defining moment for somebody, whether it's like, in a war movie and they're about to, like, you know, charge the enemy, or there's, like, you know, a sports movie and there's one big play that's gonna. We love that stuff culturally, like, and this is your defining moment. Right? But in reality, like, we don't really want defining moments, and we. Most moments don't define us. In fact, the vast majority of time, the moments in our life that we think are defining moments end up not being. Are there exceptions? I guess, sort of. Like, right, if you're Martin Luther King and you're about to give the I have a Dream speech, then that moment will kind of define you. If you're Christopher Columbus and you're about to land on the shore of the Americas, then that moment's going to define you for better or worse. Right? So there's exceptions, but generally the moment doesn't actually define us, and we don't want it that way. I think about that. The reason I thought about this really, is because with the launch of Freelancer Freedom, which is the course that Ian and I have, that we kind of promoted and talked about on last week's episode and did a launch for. And the launch kind of went not that well for reasons that I wrote about to my email list and put in the Justin and Stefan taught Copy group, I think we ended up at about 100 people. And so Ian pointed out that it's funny how definitions of bombing change, right? Because that's like $100,000. And to be like, oh, it bombed. But it wasn't about the money, it was about reaching people. And I didn't really have a half assed the marketing of it. We focused on the course, the content was great, but we didn't really have a launch strategy. We didn't have a big idea. I've talked about all this stuff. I'm not going to go too deep into it. But what was interesting and most of you saw me do this, was after we launched on a Thursday and then by, I guess, Friday, I wrote an email on my list saying my launch is bombing and I couldn't be happier. And I talked about how the launch wasn't going well and here's all the reasons why and all this stuff and what was kind of cool, I'm still really happy I did that. I did not coordinate with Ian. And it wasn't like a, like a kind of publicity stunt, right? It was like, I just, I just was like, man, you know what, I'd rather just be really honest and authentic and talk about this. Like, who's ever done that before, right? If, you know, people who do launches, it's like they, even if the launch is bombing, they pretend it's not. They just kind of keep pretending everything is going well. And they tried to fake it. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna fake it. I'm just gonna be super authentic and legit. And then like, let's just have fun with that. And that was the email I wanted to send and I did. And it's got great feedback. It also, you know, drove. Yeah, Peter says I bought for the authenticity. And to be completely frank, that was not the purpose. But we had like 10 sales when I sent that email out and had like 40 sales, like you know, within a little bit after that. Cause I think a lot of people did buy it. And I'm seeing great things in the chat, by the way, from several people saying how, yeah, the authenticity made them buy it as well. And so I appreciate it. But even in that moment, there was still a fear for me of kind of being like, well, if people look up to me as being a successful marketer and someone who has it figured out and I have had successes and I, you know, have figured a lot of stuff out. But, you know, like, even though it's cool to be authentic, are people gonna look at that and be like, oh, you know, he failed. Now he's talking about it. And I sent more emails about kind of it not doing well and talking about it right now. And I was like, is that gonna, like, define me or something? And I knew right away the answer was no. Right? Because, like, it was just one thing. And it's like, why would that be the moment that defines me? I mean, all the cool things I've done and all the things I'm gonna continue to do, and just realizing that, you know, no single moment is gonna really define me and who I am. And so if I let those moments define me, then I would be nowhere near where I am today. Because I've had a lot of. Of both good moments and bad moments. I think back to. I was at a mastermind of Ed o' Keeffe's in Nashville. This is not the first one I've talked about that first mastermind about o', Keeffe, but some of the other ones, and it was one of them. And I had been doing up to, like, you know, 60 to $100,000 a day with my supplement company. But we were there for. During that week, my sales were kind of down for some reasons and, like, weird. And I was still doing, like, 20 to $30,000 a day, which is like, you know, again, a year ago would have been unheard of that I could even do that. But I remember being really down on myself and, like, feeling like I didn't have confidence because my sales had gone lower. And even something like that was so stupid. I'm like, why am I letting myself be defined by my sales, right. That I'm making. So really the point is just not letting these moments define us. Cause, like, whether it's a failure or a win, if you have some great win and you, like, everything is. There's a balance, right? Like, the. There's the highs and there's the lows and there's the in betweens. But there's no one single moment that's going to define you, you know, Unless, I guess, you're Galileo and you're saying that the, you know, sun, Earth revolves around the sun. But if you talk to, like, Martin Luther King or Galileo, you know, if you go back in time, are they going to be like Lincoln with Gettysburg? Right? Are they going to. Maybe. Others have defined them that way to an extent, but that's not how they define themselves. You get the power to choose how you define yourself. For me, I'd rather be harder to define than some single thing, some single moment. So I just wanted to kind of share that because it's something I was playing with in my head this morning, and that was interesting. So that's it. Yeah. Ed, do you have anything to add to my monologue?

I think you really covered all the bases and just to. Not, like you said, let the moments define you, but let your actions moving forward define you.

Yeah, 100%. And I mean, I think, like, you know, like, I don't even like definitions, right? It's. It's. We're a sum of experiences. We're a sum of all the. Of who we are and our actions and all these different things. So to try and be, like, defined, like, you know, it's like a definition is like, almost like. Almost like death, right? Because once you're defined, there's nowhere. It's sort of, like, closed off. It's finished. Closed book. Right. A definition. And I want to be evolving and organic and growing and all this kind of stuff. So. Yeah, I don't know, man. Like, I think, you know. Yeah. I'm just not a fan of definitions. John said we are defined by our ability to resist temptation. Are we defined by that? That's the thing, right? We're. I don't know if we're defined by anything. We're motivated. We're driven to action. But I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I think that we're defined by anything. There's a. All these defining moments of history aren't actually defining. They're moments in history and that what seems like the most important thing in human history becomes, like, less important as time goes by. So I don't know. So anyway, with that being said, though, we're gonna answer lots of questions in the Q and A, and I am very excited to do that, Santiago. Yeah, Interesting. Okay, let's do it.

We already have a question from the woman, the myth, the legend, Kimmy Do.

Kimmy do.

You always. She's always, like, the first on, and she always asks the first question that. And it always gets the most amount of likes. Like, it shoots way to the top compared to everybody else's questions. And she always asks great questions and, like, learn.

This is.

She's gonna be fucking rich. Very, like, in the future. Like, I could see it.

Kimmy's a legend. I talk about Kimmy all the time. Kimmy, not to make you uncomfortable. Like, I talked about you, Brian Kurtz, yesterday when we were chatting, I talked about you with Jude when we were filming new episodes for my docu series. Like, I'm referencing you all the time because I just think you're such a gangster and especially to be at your age. And, like, not. I think, again, I Think I'm not worried about the age stuff. I don't think, like, oh, like, it's almost, like, diminishing. Right? Like, to be like, oh, well, because you're 16, but you're just a great marketer, period. But the fact that you have so much figured out at 16 and you're doing all these awesome things, I just, like, constantly. I'm so impressed by it. So I'm just always going around being like, oh, what's your excuse? Look at Kimmy do. She's crushing it. So anyway, Kimmy, what's up? What's your question? Ed, what's Kimmy's question?

So she asks for your best advice on preventing burnout and staying consistent.

Cool.

Hi, Stefan. Thank you so much. I literally don't know what to say. Like, I'm shaking so much. Thank you so much.

No, of course, 100%. I mean, you totally deserve the praise. It's so awesome.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much.

Yeah. And so, yeah, the question is pretty straightforward.

Are you.

Are you worried about, you know, are you struggling with burnout? Are you afraid of kind of potentially getting burned out or curious about the genesis of that question?

Yeah, exactly. Like, I feel like I'm not really consistent. Like, some days I feel super motivated, and then other days, like, I just don't want to get out of bed at all.

Yeah, that makes sense. So how. How much are you working right now?

Like, I would say right now, probably 12 hours a day.

Okay. And are you. Are you working during the weekends, too?

Yeah.

Okay, So, I mean. Yeah, I know, right? But I mean, I think right away, I mean, the biggest and most obvious thing is, like, allowing yourself to have downtime and to give yourself a break, like, to take weekends off and to recharge and to not feel like you have to work 12 hours a day. Um, you know, I talk about looking at what your biggest needle movers are and not feeling like you have to fill the hours in the day. And if you don't do that, then you're not, you know, trying hard enough. You're not working hard enough towards your goal that you're letting things slip away. I. Why. Let me ask me, why are you working seven days a week, 12 hours a day?

Yeah, I just feel, like, this really sense of urgency to move forward and to, like, become the best I can be. Like, I just have this urgency that I really need to make it, like, really fast.

Totally. I understand that. And you. And you are making it first of all, which is awesome. But I think the really important thing to think about is that paradoxically, if you, you'll make it faster if you allow yourself to have downtime, because otherwise, if you don't, then you will get burned out. I mean, there's no secret that's like, oh, work 12 hours a day, seven days a week and not get burned out. Like, it's, it's. You can do it for a while, but ultimately it's just not sustainable. And like, we need to like, recharge. We need to have these different buckets in our life, right? So there's like our, like our work bucket and then there's our relational bucket. Then there's our like, kind of personal mental health bucket. And our, the whole, the guitar analogy I mentioned early on, like, the whole thing I thought about with, with this and why these six strings of a guitar, right, is like, there's sort of your, there's your physical health, emotional health, your spiritual health, your relational health, your financial health, and what I'm forgetting, maybe your mental health or whatever it is. And basically you need to have like, all you. Each one of the. If each one's a string on a guitar, right? And if like your, your work health is like, or your financial health is great, right? And that's really in tune, but your like, relational health isn't because your relationships suck, the guitar still sounds terrible. And if both of those are still in tune, but your physical health sucks, the guitar still sounds terrible. Like, you really have to like, have all of the strings in tune. And right now you're putting everything into your financial, like, kind of string, like that one's getting tuned up. But, like, ultimately, if you don't allow yourself to have the downtime and to relax, then you will get burned out. And not only that, when you do the downtime, relax, you'll find that you have better ideas. You'll find that you are more motivated. I've talked before on this show about how like with Hemingway leaving, stopping writing in the middle of a sentence and then so that he could come back the next day and pick right back up. And also because he'd be pissed for the rest of the day, he'd be like, ah, I wanted to finish that sentence that I didn't get to. But it's the same thing with taking the weekend off. It's like if you stop working or stopping working at like 4 or 5 and you're like, man, I've got more stuff I want to get done. But you know, by not doing that, you feel motivated to come back the next day and keep going. But if you kind of just keep, if there's no end in sight, then you're just going to get tired and you're going to. And then the days where you don't feel motivated and you don't get out of bed, is your body and your mind like trying to protect yourself in a way. It's trying to give yourself that downtime. Like I've talked about this before for myself when I used to be like more of a. Like just when I would go out and like get super drunk or like do cocaine. And like even when I moved to Vegas, there's some periods where I go and like gamble and get drunk till like seven in the morning and like then if have this self loathing the next day, like, you know, you're 16 and thank God you're not doing that. But like even that stuff, a lot of it was me almost forcing myself to have downtime, right? Because if I got so messed up and like so like hungover that I physically couldn't work, then I just lay in bed. But I would lay in bed and order like pho and stuff like that and like just watch movies and TV and Netflix and, and like kind of be self loathing. But it was also like me having the downtime that would never allow myself to have when I wasn't in like a physically poisoned state. And I think, you know, I'm really going off on this, but it's because I really think this is important and is this making sense for you? Yeah.

Thank you so much. This is super helpful, like hearing your experience and then like really knowing the importance of getting downtime and how it's okay to have downtime.

It's really important. Yeah, it is. Again, it's really how you, how you keep going and how you avoid burnout because otherwise it will happen. So giving yourself that permission and realizing. Because again, even if you want to look at it from a, as a means to an end, and the end being a bunch of, you know, financial success and all this kind of stuff, which is awesome, but the down, you know, you're actually making an investment in your success by giving yourself downtime.

Yeah, for sure, 100%. Thank you so much, Stefan. I really appreciate it.

100%. Please, please take, take a break, do some more downtime.

Thank you so much.

Awesome. Thank you, Kimmy. Sweet, sweet.

Next one.

So by the way, real quick everyone on Facebook Live, just want to give you guys the love. Mark Dean said I came right in when he said getting drunk on cocaine. So yeah, Mark, I Know you picked a good time for that. And Tony, Greg Meyer. I'm not sure if you're still watching, but love you, man. Glad you're here. Neeraj too. So sorry. Go ahead. I just want to give the Facebook live friends some love too.

Let's do it. So, question from Zacchaeus. Sorry if I mispronounce your name. What's the daily routine a newbie copywriter would do to work on, to be a great copywriter? I've heard of writing copy, reading copy, et al, but what exactly would it look like?

Sweet. What's up, Zacchaeus? How are you doing? Hi, Stefan, how are you?

Yeah, so much excited to be here to talk to you on this platform. I've been waiting for this a whole, like for a while. Yeah. I've been going through your content and it's been awesome. Have been kind of. It's like a drug hide to me. Your. Your email and what you post on your. On your group. And I've been learning and the last conversation you had with Ian got me drilled to like go all in on this being a better copywriter. And I've been doing on a daily basis, I've been writing content, I'm going through your email, writing it. Hands on experience and a whole lot like that. So I would like to ask, what would you recommend for a new big copywriter? Like a daily template?

I know, I'm listening to you. My daughter came in for a visit, but I am listening to you as well.

Okay, thanks. So like a daily template that he could do so that he could become a better copy writer. Because I have a goal in the next 60 to 90 days to add to at least up my game and go all in on this because I'm kind of loving it, the writing, the ideas and the whole lot of things coming up. But I want to go all in. So what would you recommend for a newbie copywriter?

Yeah, are you. How much time do you have per day? I mean, are you, are you doing other stuff? Are you like, do you have a job as well or you pretty much have all day. Like how many hours per day do you really have have that you feel like you can really dedicate to it?

Okay. Like now what I'm currently doing is that I wake up 3am in the morning, then I spend the first three hours of the day writing. Then I'm kind of free by 12. So from 12 to 2 o' clock I also do that. So in the evening sometimes I also do that. So let's say roughly I have like five hours in a day to do that.

When you're writing from my, you know, the morning block and then from 12 to 2, I mean, you're writing copy and is it for clients or is it for clients or is it for yourself to kind of practice?

No, it's just for myself to kind of practice at this point in time.

Okay, got it. Yeah. I mean, there's no like magical answer to this. I mean, I think the writing is good. I would. The best I can say would be are you reading other people's like, like promos and copy every day?

Yeah, like, like I like the Agora promos, like the likes of Abu Quadra of, I think Agora, one of the chief copy. I go through his content and I do hands on writing. Also your content, Ian's content, and some of your sales copy that you have, I also go through it. So I want to know, like, what is the best way for me to write, read and like, how can I up my game in this particular industry when it comes to that?

Yeah, it sounds like you're doing a lot of the right stuff. Like I think, you know, like reading controls, like looking at different. I'd look in different categories and niches. So looking at Agora stuff's good, but I'd look at other, you know, other swipes, other things that are working, like watching VSLs, like go to Clickbank and find the top VSLs and like watching those and making notes, transcribing them and then, you know, practicing like what you're doing for AIM right now. Maybe like rewriting like offers, like if you find like a, you know, control you like, and you've got the script for it and then how could you rewrite it? What would you do? Right? Say so if you want to practice and you don't have clients, like, you can practice stuff like what would I, what could I do for a unique mechanism that's different than what they did? What could I do for a lead that would maybe be different? And then you can practice writing like rewriting parts of these controls. The benefit of that too is if you write something good, you can always send it to the offer owner and be like, hey, I wrote this for you. You want to try it out? Which so could end up getting you a client. But you know, typically I think you're doing the right stuff. I would probably spend the majority of my five hours, I would spend two to three hours, maybe at least three hours out of it, like studying copy, like so watching other sales letters, video sales Letters and transcribing them, looking at other controls, reading them, taking notes, looking at the structure, doing all that kind of stuff. And then I spend, you know, really maybe an hour or two writing. I mean, I think the writing is important for practice, but I do think really being exposed to a lot of that stuff and really making a note of it. So not just reading it, but really like what again, what are the commonalities I'm seeing? What is like the structure that's being done? What is the phrasing that I keep seeing? You know, why do I think this is successful? Where do I think that it could be improved? Because no piece of copy is like perfect that even the gods write. Right. They can having. There's opportunities to improve it. This is a lot of the big stuff that comes to my mind. Ed. Curious if you. I think you want to add into that as well.

Yeah, I've actually got quite a bit to talk about on this one.

Nice.

So my first question, Zaki, is do you have any clients yet?

As at two weeks ago, I was someone I actually wrote a content from. I'm actually from. I reside in Nigeria. Right. Right here. So I wrote some things for him and he actually liked it. So I've been doing though I'm not. I'm not looking at the pay because it's just like a miniature kind of a thing, but it's just like. It's just like a medium for me to actually see what I get and give it up and test. So it's like, let me say I'm kind of having a client, so to say. So I'm giving out contents like email format and has been. There's been some kind of improvements based on what I'm currently going through your content and using that to actually go through the content I'm currently doing now. So, so to say I have. Let me call him a client, but not like a retainer kind of a client. So he's just testing my work. But for now there's a kind of results from what I'm doing.

Okay, got you. So that's the case. I love what Stefan said about choosing somebody to write as your client almost. And I can, I can give you a great example. So I have a. I have a client from myself and they wanted some Facebook ads and I was very, very swamped. And I reached out to somebody who's currently on the call right now. Not gonna say who, but I asked that person to write some Facebook ads for me. But first I wanted to see their samples. So they showed me their samples of just like random things that they, like, they wrote for Facebook ads. And I was like, that's not very helpful. Like, that's cool. I can kind of see your writing ability. But I already wanted to help the person and I wanted to hire them even if they were trash, just because I wanted to help them. Clients are not going to be that way. So to me, like, find somebody who has an offer that you want to help and then you write copy. Like, pretend that you are that person's copywriter. You write for them. You know, like, write the three emails or whatever. So when you show it to them, a you have, you know, like, hey, this. Like, I wrote this for you. Because when. When clients ask for or prospects ask for samples from you, what they really are gauging is how good is this person going to be to write for me? That's really what they're doing and how skilled are they? So instead of making them guess how it's going to be writing for them, why don't you just show them? And also, it gives you better stuff to write about if you're writing for that person. And if it doesn't work out, they don't like it. Well, congratulations. You just added extra stuff to your portfolio. There we go.

Yeah, that's great. I totally agree. I mean, does that help it? There's no magic thing. Like, there's a magic formula where it's like, study for two hours, write for one hour. Like, you know, do a walk for an hour. You know, it's like, it's. It's. But you're doing the right stuff. And I think, you know, back to what Ed just said, I think that's really a big crux of it. I think he was spot on. Yeah, I agree, Rob. So does that help, man?

Yeah. Very well. Thank you so much, Stefan. Thank you. Thank you, Ed. And thanks for creating something like this, a medium for once you communicate to you like, this was kind of priceless. And thanks for the value you actually give to the copywriting industry. Not. Not just copywriting mentally and in every area. I really, really appreciate. Thank you so much.

Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate you have you coming on. Sweet.

That was a great question. That was a great question.

That was a great question, dude.

There's just something about, like, writing like sending free samples or like choosing a client hypothetically and then just writing for them and then practicing. And then once you feel like your stuff is good enough, then you send it to them.

Yeah, another one. Same thing with even doing, like, kind of critiques and things. Like, one of the strategies in Freelancer Freedom. I forget whose it is, but I'll just give it away. Somebody was doing that. They're like, writing emails for a client, and then, like, the client, like, wasn't responding to them, but then they want to put it on their LinkedIn. And so they basically were showing all this copy on LinkedIn that they were writing. And like, here's all this, like, content. I'm writing all this stuff, like, and just posting that on LinkedIn. And then people saw that in their Link, the person's LinkedIn feed, and then, like, hired them because of that. So that's another way you don't waste it, right? We go back to selling your sawdust. It's like, you know, you can write it for that client, but if the client doesn't use it, right? Or if you do a copy critique or a conversion critique or whatever it is, then just put it on LinkedIn. Show it other places. Like, now you're show you're showcasing your work and like, that. You know, you can get clients just from that. Rachel, I can't remember if it was an email critique or not. I'm blanking on it, but I'll have to check later. But it was a really good strategy. That's the thing, right? Record your. Like, you guys have seen. You guys and gals have seen. I really try not to just do the only guys thing. Also trying to not say girl anymore. I know I said I do that quick side tangent, because I'll be like, oh, yo, he's a good guy. But I'll be like, oh, yeah, this girl who works for me. And I'm like, why? I want to say this boy who works for me, so why am I saying girl? So if I say guys, I say gals because it flows. But I'm really trying to be a little more conscious of my pronouns and stuff like that. Just so you all know. I know it's silly, but I also want to be respectful. But anyway, actually, shit, that just totally derailed me in my train of thought. Ed totally lost what I was gonna say because I had to go on a gender pronoun rant.

Oh, man.

Stuff, emails, fuck. It'll come back, I promise.

Basically, you were. You were Talking about the LinkedIn critiques of somebody posted on Sawdust.

Sawdust. Oh, yeah. I mean, just the fact that I try to record so much of the stuff I do, because you never know when that's gonna be valuable. So, like, just, yeah, these calls. But even if I'm doing other critiques and feedback. I mean, think about with, even with Copy Accelerator and all of the critiques and feedback that we're giving to all of our members, if we were ever to, you know, stop doing Copy Accelerator, I have like a thousand plus like critiques that I have recorded of us, of Justin and I going through copy and giving feedback and critiques and reviewing copy like that alone is like an absurdly valuable course. So just realizing you just have assets everywhere, right? And there's so many ways to, to purpose the things you're doing. So I would just say again, be all about that sawdust record stuff, repurpose, re leverage content, all that kind of stuff.

So yeah, please don't, please don't close Copy Accelerator.

I'd cry.

I have no plans to be very sad.

All right, question from Heidi. This is a very good question. Haven't seen this one before. What is the mindset shift you think you need to go from being a mid range copywriter like 8k to 10k to earning 20k or more every month? This is very applicable to me, actually.

It is literally just happened. What's up, Heidi? How are you? You there, Heidi? I don't hear you. I see unmuted, which is okay.

But.

It'S a great question.

We can't hear you.

It's okay, Heidi, if you, if your mic works, try. Well, you know, we'll let you know. But it's a great question, Heidi. And yeah, Ed, I mean, I wanted to talk about that. No problem, Heidi. Well, we appreciate you asking. We'd love to have interacted with you voice to voice, but we can get that next time. I have thoughts, but this is a cool one because when I talked to. I mean, can I kind of share the story of.

Go right ahead, it's fine.

When we were at the last Copy Exciter event in Vegas and towards the end of February and Ed was, had been with, you know, his employer for a while at that point and he was going to leave and we were talking about it and Ed was sort of worried about making. I feel originally you were worried about making and you were kind of like your goal was.

And my goal was 10k.

Your goal was 10k. And I was like, dude, you can make like, like you'll definitely make 10k. I'm like, honestly, like, you can, you'll probably make 20k a month really fast. And Ed's like, eyes got really wide and he was like, what? Like really, man, like, wow. Like shaking his head. And this was not that Many months ago. This was like, what, five months ago?

This is the end of February. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like March, April, May, June, July. So like five months ago. And I mean, what did you. What did. What have you made so far this month, ed?

This month? 19.5k US.

Yeah. So the answer was like, just like, what I told you, but you had to go through a crazy mindset shift, right? To go from making like less than 10k a month on your job a lot of the time to now. You're, you know, you'll probably make close.

To 30k this month on my job, dude. Yeah, that have been sick. But yeah, you know, just over. Was it over quintupled? Was it like. I don't know what, what the. The 6.6X. That's what it's called. Six tupled. But yeah, that's what happened with my income.

So what happened? Let's talk about the mindset. Going back to Heidi's question. I mean, because there's a mindset shift. Because when I first told you you could do 20k in a month, you were like, again, you were like, shocked. Like, you look like a deer in the headlights kind of. I think you knew in your heart that you were always going to do that. But to hear maybe my confidence that you could do and that, like, that. Yeah, yeah.

Honestly, you started it. Like, you just.

Your.

Your unshakable belief in me, that really set me up for success. Just like straight up that you were like, yeah, dude, you'll make 15, 20K. You'll crush easy. I was like, what?

Like.

And then my goal shifted from, you know, 15, 10k month to 20k plus month.

Right?

So I was like, okay, so what do I have to do? And by the way, since I. Since I left, even. Even the first month I left, I didn't make less than. This is in Canadian dollars. 15.4k sounds like 9k. Yeah, 9k US. So triple my income within a month of leaving. But what really set me up so, like I said, having somebody or like a support group of people who believed in me. That was really just. Everybody's like, ed, you got this. Like, you can do this. We're here to support you. Like, being part of, like, a family RNBC or Copy Accelerator or RNBC Applied or Copycenter Lite, like, any. Any community like that where people hold you to higher standards. And like, I've made some lifelong friends because of this journey. So on top of that, plus a great income, that's been incredible. So that's the first thing that's like super tactics and you know, tricks aside, just having the right people around you and being involved in the community is very important too. The next thing I'd say for sure is, I know, I know we're talking about mindset shift. I guess this is considered mindset shift, but just showing up, showing up all the time. Like for example, like I remember one of the guys in Copper Center, I think it's in when he was posting.

Every single day on Justin and Stefan Talk copy.

Yeah, posting every single day in a free Facebook group. Sorry. Yeah. And also community justin7 copy as well. It's a great group. There's literally like multi hundred million dollar business owners in there just commenting on people's posts. And Justin, Stefan taught copy and he's like the fucking legends of copywriting. Like, holy crap. Like you guys have seriously built an amazing community. So just showing up every single day, like that's, that's kind of why I've built my success is I just, I show up every day, all the time and I'm vocal. Like, I believe it or not, I'm not really an extrovert. I just turn it on when I have to. Like, basically I have after, after each of these calls I have to go and recharge for like an hour. But that's the point of showing up. Like, you know, Stefan had this opportunity, he's like, hey Ed, you know, I want, I'm thinking about doing this call in radio show. Do you want to be the co host? I'm like, fuck yeah, let's do it easy. I wasn't like, you know, I'll think about it, man. Dude, just show up. Like, I don't know what opportunity this is going to present me, but just showing up and you know, being okay with not necessarily getting anything out of it. I didn't expect anything out of this. I don't, this is just, it's fun for me. Plus I want to help give back, which is also a lot of benefit. And showing up consistently like every single week. You guys see me, I know for a fact when I drop a course or I do something, you guys are probably gonna buy or anything like that, so. Or hire me for copywriting. Whatever happens to be. So the mindset shift to me from a mid range copywriter to you know, 20k or more every month. So once you have the foundation, those are the foundations. That's like what I just said. Everybody needs that. To show up often, every day and to have a great community. But like to go from 8k to 20k plus, at least in my journey, has been starting to specialize like you. You can, you can be, you know, you could be a generalist copywriter.

And.

You could be earning 8, 10k a month. You know, you charge, let's say, you know, 5K to 7 1/2 K for a sales letter. But in my opinion, to get past that, like, to get past the 10k mid 15 mark, you got to start specializing a bit more in what you do and who you serve and how you help them. Stefan, I saw you had a little thinking moment there. I want to hear your thoughts too.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think those are great answers that and I really appreciate it. The thing I. One of the interesting things I was thinking about from a mindset. This is kind of like a mindset pep talk for you, Heidi. A little bit. But honestly, if you're making 8 to 9k a month, then you can be making 20 to 30k a month right now. Right? So just, just objectively, basically, because it's hard to get to 8 to 9, 8 or 9,000amonth. And if you keep doing that consistently right now, there's no reason you couldn't be doing 20 to 25 to 30. I mean, and that's. We've had that happen with all these people on Copy Accelerator, like again and again and again. But it's totally, like totally doable. So what do you need to do to get there? Right. One thing on the mindset side of things, I mean, a. You know, glad you agree. It's possible because it's, it's, it's. It's 100% possible, 100% doable. One thing I've been thinking about a little bit recently is how every time we level up, it feels like this big leap. And I'm not referencing the Big Leap, the book in this case, although we talk about Big Leap every show, so I would be terrible if I didn't mention it. So hashtag the big leap. But every time you level up, it feels like this big leap. Like, it feels like you're going to this world of the unknown and you're scared and it's kind of exhilarating and you're worried and it's like, you know, a new territory in your life, in your career and in your growth. But every time you get there, almost every time after a while, at least most of the time, you get used to it, right? And then it feels like the new normal. So, like the stuff that like 8 to 9k a month probably felt like this impossible goal to you a few years back or something, like, totally hard to achieve. Now you're there and you're like, sick of it and annoyed and you're like, ugh, 8 to 9k, right? When past you would have been thrown at 8 to 9k. So when you realize that, and you realize that no matter where you go to, no matter where you leapfrog to or level up to, like, you're gonna. It's gonna seem like this big leap, but then you're gonna end up getting used to it and being comfortable there. And then you're still gonna want to go even further. Like, even once you get to 20 or 30k, you're probably gonna be like, how do I get to 50k?

Right?

How do I get to 100k a month? Once you realize that that's true, and it's like, almost always happens that way, then it's like, let's just like, leapfrog shit too. So let's just go, like, why do I need to do baby steps? Like, if I know that's going to happen and it keeps happening that way, then why don't I take, like, bigger leaps, right? And I think, like, that's kind of important to know. Is that like, almost like future pacing yourself, thinking about how once you're there, you're already going to be like, in this place where you need to, like, you're going to want to grow again. It can help you to make the leap in a less amount of time. And then from a tactical or strategic standpoint, Heidi, I do think you could probably look at charging more, especially, you know, if you're. If you're consistently gaining 8 to 9k a month, that means, I'm guessing that means you're getting results for people and you're showing them, you know, like, people are hiring you because they're expecting to get a good ROI from it. So I would, you know, I don't know if you're using some of the strategies I've talked about before, like doing the math where you kind of show them how they're getting an ROI by hiring you and investing in you. I think that's a really important thing to do. So for those watching who don't know what I'm talking about with, like, doing the math really quickly, it's like, you're not an expense, you're an investment, right? So someone's gonna hire you and you're like, how much do you think you're gonna gross? And they're like, oh, I think I'M guessing you want to gross at least a million dollars with this offer, right? And they say, yeah, definitely. Alright, cool. And your profit margin is probably gonna be like, I don't know, 20%. And they say, what's gonna be like 40%? You're like, alright, cool, let's just say it's 20%. That's $200,000 that you would get net profit money in the bank. I charge $10,000 or $15,000. Here's my track record, especially for someone like you, Heidi, who I think has a track record. And you're like, here's my track record. I've helped these other people to do it. I've done it consistently. And that's why when you hire me, you're not just throwing money at something. You're making an investment in someone who has a track record of helping people to achieve exactly what you want to achieve. And the result of that is that for this $10,000 investment in me, or $15,000 investment or whatever it is, you have the chance to gross a million dollars, but net $200,000. So say it's 10,000 and you're gonna take two clients on in a month and that's how you get to 20,000. But so like, all right, for $10,000, that means, like, you're basically hiring me at the chance of a 20x ROI. If you went to Wall street and said, hey, you buy this stock and every dollar you put in, you're getting $20 back, you would buy as much of that stock as you could. Well, that's what I am doing for you as a copywriter. So some of it's just like that positioning and doing the math for them. But I think things like that could really help you to justify kind of those higher rates that you charge and then just having the confidence there when you do it. But whatever. I mean, this happens all the time in copy. Excited? I did this with, I've done with Ed, I've done it with Randall Pruitt, I've done it with John Robb. I've done it with all these different people where they were like Sam Robson. I mean, so many people where they were like, I was going to charge $5,000 and I'm like, okay, charge 7,500. And like, they're like 7,500. But it's like, to like the client, the right client, it's immaterial, you know, I mean, you just have to remember it depends on your clients too. But it's like all relative. I mean, this is like, not, I'm not saying this to sound like arrogant or fucking like, oh, I'm so sick. But like, I got a check for like a commission check for like $4,000 yesterday for like. And I get this check every month for saying I referred. And anyway, I literally opened it, looked at it, I was like. And threw it to the side. And like, I laughed at myself because I'm like, I literally had no response to like, someone sending me $4,000 in the mail, right? And I'm like, I was like, most people get a check for $4,000 in the mail. It's like a life changing moment where they're like, oh my God, I can pay off this debt. I can do this. But now, you know, to me at this point, so if you charge, you know, 5,000 for some project now and then you up it to 6,500 or 7,000, like, for me, like, if I think you're the right person, like, that makes no difference. So just. That's some more mindset stuff to think about when you're working with clients too. I know that was a lot, but I did want to kind of chime in there too.

And it's really cool hearing how you talked about the growth of like, you know, eventually you grow to a point where it's like it was once a really big goal for you, but like, now it's like, oh, that's it. Like, I get, I get really mad. This hasn't happened yet. But. So when I first left, I made.

And this isn't.

So back to Canadian dollars. 50.4 K in a month. That was my first month leaving. And then like the next month I got to 18k and the month after that it was down to 16. I was like, fuck, only 16. I was. Even though it was like, you know, shit, like, you know, five times was. Or like four times I was making before. This month in KDN is like 24.4K.

I think.

So.

Yeah.

Like, you guys are in the right, the right place with great people who actually give a shit.

Yeah, 100%. Hyde asked about kind of which of my groups have the best communities. And it's kind of like all of them do. But I mean, Copy Starter is full lite, has its own kind of community. But honestly, I would. For someone like Heidi, I would probably recommend the freelancing course. And I put out because it's like we have a lot of these strategies for how to like double or triple your income. And I mean, like, Rob Tidwell was on the chat, you know, and he quit his job after attending. I'm not trying to. I don't even know if the cart's still open or not. But just basically just saying the freelancing one is the one I would do probably. But I think this is a great answer. That was fun getting to answer it. And Heidi, hopefully was this helpful. Heidi, I know you can't. You have your mic working, but you want to give us. Give us a yes in the chat. Okay, awesome. Cool. Glad that helped.

That was a sick question, though.

That was a sick question. I was, I was excited to be able to kind of pontificate.

I know a lot of good ideas for my book because it's like a lot of the same methods.

Nice.

Okay, so a question here from Pedro. Pedro says, I'm a beginner freelance copywriter. So I don't have experience of results, but every job opportunity I see asks for it. How can I get a client without experiencing results? Can I answer this?

Yeah, please.

Okay, so Pedro on Pedro. Hey, are you listening to me? Yes, sir, we can hear you. Thanks.

What's up, Pedro?

I'm great. Better now I'm talking to you. So, yeah, I'm a beginner. I think I'm and scope writing stuff since June, July, I think. And I don't have results, neither experience. But every job opportunity comes up to me is they ask for experience and results. And I don't know if I apply or just pass it out, what to do. So that's it. What, what kind of opportunities are you looking to get? Is it like emails and stuff? No, it's sales letter, letters and page. Got you. Okay, so here's a really, really easy way around all of that, all that problems. Are you ready for it? Yeah. So when you go to a client who wants you to write, let's say, sales letter, you write them two or three sample emails that's going to be promoting another product of theirs to show them that you have the chops to write for their stuff. So you don't need to have results or experience. You just show them, hey, I'm a good fit to write for your brand. And they can even use it. They can use your emails and send it out to their list and get results from that as well. And they go, hey, you know this guy actually not only did he do the work up front, so he wasn't a lazy, you know, piece of shit, he actually, like went above and beyond to show us. He did his research. He wrote this for us. He took the time to do that and he Got us results in advance. No client's gonna care about if you don't have results or experience. If you can get them results and you put in the work upfront and show them that you're serious, then when you go to, hey, so let's write a sales letter for you, they're much more inclined to hire you, even more so than people who are experienced or who have results, because you took that extra initiative. And I know Stephan can agree with this. As a business owner, you want to hire a copywriter, even if they're a bit more junior, if they're willing to go the extra mile for you instead of just, oh, I'll pay you 5K. And then, like, you're not really interested. You only can about my stuff.

Yeah, I totally agree. Pedro, real quick. The other thing, too. I mean, just like, create samples, you know? Like, you don't need to. Like, what's one thing that I'm not saying? I don't know if you do this or not, but a lot of freelancers will wait and be like, I don't have any sales letters to show them. But it's like, well, why, like, write some sales letters, Pick a client, do it. Like, then. Now, that's no longer an objection. You know, it's an investment of your time. But it's like, you know, you're. You're putting in. You're sowing the seeds today, so you get to reap the harvest tomorrow. Uh, so just another thing that I would really. And then. Then that objection goes away on the not having samples.

Okay, thanks help it a lot. Thanks.

Awesome. Glad to help, Pedro.

Thanks.

Thank you. Bing.

Bada boom.

John. John McDermott gets. Get some love in the chat on Zoom here, for the road to success is dotted with many tempting parking spaces. Love it. It's good. It's good. John, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for being here. By the way, can I talk to you said someone to all panelists. I don't know who you are. 8B 9F 7413. But for 8. 9B. F. Whatever put up, do all panelists and attendees in the chat also. Yeah, it's probably Patriot Ed. What? Dude, I'm enjoying it. We're getting through a lot today. This is great.

Okay. I'm trying to. I'm finding stuff that's, like, less the same as what we always do. So let's see if we can find something different here.

By the way, I see Ryan Skelly. For anyone who knows Ryan Skelly, I see he and his wife are expecting a baby, which is amazing. Ryan Scully is a great guy. I met him through Edoke, too. Congrats, Ryan Scully, if you happen to hear this. That's awesome. So go ahead, Ed.

I feel like most of the questions can be answered as just write samples for people. Honestly. Yeah, like, that's like that. Like, that literally answers probably 80% of the questions we get on the shelf. I love you guys. Okay, cool. Great question here from. Ooh, Jazz the man. So Jaz asked, what would you do if you had no network, no track record, just your copywriting skills, and you only had a week to make 5k? Dude, what did I just say? What did I just say, man?

Yeah. So full disclosure.

I'm going to be moving to a.

Place next month, and basically, I need to have the first month, the second month, and the security deposit, and altogether, it's like, going to be 5k. So I wanted to give myself a challenge. I wanted to act as if I had to come up with that money in a week.

And I was just curious to know if. What would you do if all you had was your skill? You didn't have any of that leverage.

But you needed 5k cash in one week. So in this case, we have the Scott, we. You don't have the network. You have the copyright skills, but not the network. Right. Do you want. I mean, do you want to write copy for it, or you want to try and do it a different way? Yeah, using. Using your copy skills. Yeah. So writing copy for clients. So, I mean, I would. I mean, I got, you know, I don't know the magical answer for this, but thinking out loud, like, I would probably use that as a reason to, like, look for clients. So I'd be like, talking about your track record. I mean, it's tough. I know. Damn it. Because, like, look, like, yo, Justin, I hired you to do some stuff for Copy Accelerator. You're going through all these crazy wins. Like, you have wins. Like, it would be weird for you not to leverage that. So that's why it's a weird question, because you do have some of the network and you have some track records. So, like, for you, you know, what you should do is basically be like, you know, I'm Jazz. I'm crushing it. Here's all this cool stuff I've done. Justin and Stefan thought I was so good, they hired me. Like, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I'm moving to a new place. I gave myself a challenge. How do I get, like, you know, $5,000 in the next week. And, you know, then like, basically I decided that, you know, the most obvious thing was to write a killer sales letter for one lucky client. So I'm only taking on one person. It's five grand up front. I guarantee you you'll get like a, you know, massive roi. Hire me now. That being said, if it's Andrew said, pretend you're talking to me. Musical 5K. I mean, I still just fucking go apply to jobs. I don't know. I would. I would go on like the call of copy job boards, kind of like, I've heard iffy things about it lately. I used to recommend it a lot, but I've heard people saying that it's kind of like a wasteland. So I don't know if that's still a good place or not. Like, there's upwork, there's network. I'd still probably be. Because you can't really sell. I mean, what are you gonna sell 5k of? I mean, you can launch a product really fast, but like, I don't know, like even a course. Like, I don't know what you're gonna launch. And if you want to launch like a training or coaching thing, but you have no network, then that's gonna be really tough too. So, like, I'd probably still be looking for gigs and opportunities in places like Upwork and Freelancer and all these other kind of places too. I'm curious what someone else said. I think Rachel had a. What was Rachel's people go back to your previous clients. That's for referrals. Well, yeah, but we. The way Jaz is saying, it's almost like you have nothing. Like you're just like, you just are dropped onto earth. You're like a copyright alien and you've just been dropped onto earth, but you like have no clients, no anything. What would you do? You have a magical answer for this?

I do, actually. I do.

Nice.

I would. I would lurk. Do you have money to invest?

Yeah, I have money to invest.

I would literally go to rnbc, friend everybody in there and then just start adding as many suggested friends as possible, especially if you can find out if they're in copy accelerator. And then just once you've added everybody, just, just start posting a bunch of content on your wall about whatever it is that you want to get people to hire you for. So that's one that's a bit more long term. But you said a week. So you find out who owns what offers and products. So after you've added everybody, ignore the posting on your wall. That's a long term play, which you can do. But the short term play for sure is you find out who owns what offer, do your research, and then you send samples to those people for like, emails, and then you show them, hey, I'm a good fit to write your shit. Do you have anything that needs to be written? There you go. One sales.

Okay, yeah, there's like 15 of those case studies in freelancer freedom. That's why I'm pissed about the marketing, because, like, there's like that course, like, just answers all these questions. There's like 15 ways to get clients really fast. But how much money do you have to invest in this hypothetical? 5,000. Yeah, 5,000 invest.

Just pay me 5k and then I'll help you get 5k.

That's actually. That's funny. But it's not entirely crazy. I mean, like, one of my personal consulting, like, the only guy. So I coach and I just like, I love him, but I joke that, like, I, like, I don't know, he's like, he's like, he won't, like, stop paying me until I fire him. And, like, I like him. So I haven't fired him yet, but two different times he's been like, hey, man, like, I want to get a client or whatever. Like, you know, he's doing other stuff too. Like, I want a client, like, all right. And then both times I brought him new clients that paid like 10 to 15 grand within, like 48 hours of him saying that he wanted to get a new client on. So I literally just like, leveraged my network. So that point, I mean, you could honestly go to like, some the big wig people and be like, hey, like, I really want to find a client that pays me at least ten grand. Here's my track record, like, you know, just ethically, right? Here's my track record, all that. I wanted to send you 5K. If you can send me a referral for somebody who'll pay me 10k, I'll send you. Or 15k. I'll send you 5k or whatever it is, right?

Yo, Jazz, you owe me money.

Yeah, seriously. I mean, that is an actual strategy you could use if you had that money. It's kind of pain to play a.

Little bit, but, like, no, he's been playing for free.

I know, but it does work. I mean, like, you know, that is interesting. I had one other idea, but it's gone for a second. But I don't know. Is this helpful, Jaz? Yeah, this is really helpful. This is. I wanted to ask a question that couldn't be answered the typical way, just to open more resourceful avenues. That was a great answer. Cool. Awesome. Glad, thanks for that question. Really enjoyed it.

It's a fun one. Okay.

Thinking about it like I want to answer more.

Yeah, yeah. I already get him clients for free. He's gotta hear jazz question from Chris Dixon. He says hi guys. So layout question as far as graphic design and use of particular fonts, spacings, etc. I'm sure that there are about four to five that are standard. Also laying graphics and images out in your sales layer, etc. Do you have a go to graphics person who won't take over the space and an understanding of working with copywriters.

Sweet. What's up Chris?

Hi guys.

How you doing?

Good, how you doing?

Excellent.

How are you? Yeah, even better that I have now joined RNBC yesterday.

Awesome. It was good to see you in there. I liked your intro post and glad that that client finally paid you and you were able to join.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I've been chasing that up for so long and I was kind of ring fenced that money and yeah, I finally got, I mean it wasn't that they weren't happy about it, just the fact that they would just Covid hit and everything delayed everything and I was just like just pay me the money so I can press that bloody button. Yeah, really excited. So yeah, so the question is about in my background is tv so I'm very visual person. But obviously you've got writing a copy for your sales letters, etc. But obviously you know, you, you need some graphics in there. There's spacing, there's fonts that are good standard. I don't know, I mean I've only started going to RNBC today so I don't know that's in the training but I just had to ask the question because I think it's important the layout, you know, the spacing and everything like that.

Yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, I mean as far as the fonts and spacing and stuff, the short answer is like generally I'm putting, I'm putting the onus on the client to do that. Like I'm not a designer and I'm like not, you know, that's kind of on them and they usually have a team that's doubt and they're going to do that. So like, I mean even though the font size. I don't know, there's not like, I don't. The bigger fonts are generally going to be better depends on your demo. But especially for older demographics, if they, like, you have to think about if you ever seen like an older person who's like, looking at their cell phone and like the fonts, like magnified, it's just huge, right? So, I mean, that's a mistake people make is they put out these sales letters with like a size 12 or 14 font and it should probably be like 18 or 20. Like we talk about that even with Justin's emails. It's pretty important, you know, as far as like the graphics and the images and things like that in a sales letter. I will only do that if I feel like it's really gonna support the argument I'm making, or it's gonna add a bunch of proof elements or credibility, or I just think that, you know, it's really gonna increase conversions and help out. Then I'll take, you know, screenshots and I'll put stuff in. But typically if it's not, that's not the case, or, you know, clients got kind of a good design team already, then I'm not really even providing all that stuff to them. Are you. Do you have. Do most of your clients, do you feel like they want you to do it or do you want to do it or. I'm kind of curious about the genesis of the question.

Well, I'm kind of an early stage. I'm like, I'm just writing emails to people. I do eshop to this particular company where I've got the images anyway, the leads there Shopify. So I've got all the product images and stuff like that. But just laying out, say, a sales letter, if you're approaching like smaller SMEs and stuff like that, that probably aren't going to have a graphic design company. They're probably, sorry, graphic design department. They'd probably have someone in there that will do some graphics. But, you know, it's like an extra selling point because I come from a very creative industry. So I'm just thinking, you know, is there a particular way of laying stuff out or should I just go? Because, I mean, I look at a lot of Agora stuff. I was a client of there for a long time, bought a lot of their products. I guess it depends as you say who you're actually selling to, the font size, because, you know, reading, say, Justin's emails, for example, they're so easy to read, they're quite large and stuff. So it's just a general question about a layout, as you say, you know, if you don't have that graphic design element within the company you're working for. It could be something like it gives. Gives another sort of. I can do a certain element of that as well. I thought if there was a particular layout or is it just like, you know, I just look at a lot of swipe files and stuff and see what works.

Yeah, you can do that stuff. I mean, the one thing I would, I would warn you of or have you be wary of is as soon as you take on the design now it's like a whole nother level of headaches and responsibilities too. Right. So it's like you're giving them the copy, but now you're also doing the design. So now if it's, you know, doesn't convert or it doesn't go great, then you're now like, you know, they can blame the design or your copy for it or if they don't like the design and now they're coming back and giving you all this feedback and you're, you know, it's actually delaying. It creates more work for you and you go through you know, 20 iterations on the design and keep doing that stuff. I'm seeing some people resonating with this in the chat too. You know, I get it. But I've also seen a lot. You're not the first person to kind of have this idea. And like I generally what will most often happen is you're just creating way more work for yourself. And it's just, it's just almost always better to not have the extra responsibility.

I just thought if there was some input because obviously images are really important. I mean, do you kind of suggest when you're writing copy for like a long form sales letter, for example, you know, like the fitness niche or preppers market or all the kind of things you've done, do you have any input into any of that at all? Or that you just let them. It's up to them to deal with that. You're just there to write the copy and that's. That's where it ends.

Yeah, typically I'm just there to write the copy. I mean, if again, if I have like an. If I see an article and I want to include a screenshot of an article, or I find a chart or something interesting and I may just copy and paste it in and maybe there's a comment like show this chart, show this. Right, there's a little bit of that, but that's gonna be 50% of the time. And then 50% of the time or more. I don't include any of that at all. And then, you know, depending on the client, I might be like, hey, once you get design, I'm happy to look over it and, you know, kind of make sure that I think it looks good, but that's about it. Yeah, the designs, they're two different things. And, like, my job is to write copy, you know, I know Michael said some landing page specialists might be a good at both. Could be a niche, Michael. I mean, people do it, but, like, I'm typically. I just really feel like you're creating more work for yourself and more opportunities to piss the client off or have more headaches. So you can do it. But I really generally just feel like I would just focus on the copy.

Okay, that's cool. So just quick one, I'm going back to the font, because obviously there's a gazillion fonts and giving a designer carte blanche to do anything with a font. They were going to do something horrific probably. But, you know, what are the sort of standard fonts that you kind of. I mean, I could probably see and do some research on it, but off the top of your head, what kind of, like, fonts are out there? You just kind of like, go, right. This is my go to.

I mean, I don't. I mean, I just write in, like, Word, Microsoft Word, and like, it's like Calibri or like whatever. Some people write like Verdana, but there's no magical font. I mean, one thing you can do is you can inspect page elements, so you can go to, like, the top sales letters that are out there. Do right click inspect page elements. And if you know anything about HTML at all, you can look and see what font those people are using. And typically I could just go through and look at the different. Like. Like see if there's some fonts that are kind of common. But even I don't think the fonts. As long as it's not some weird old English font or not too cutesy, you know, like the typewriter font, all that kind of shit. It's like, basically this is like a normal font that, like, you would see, like, normally on the Internet, then that's really all that matters.

Okay, sounds good. No, I get that. That's brilliant. And I caught the first episode of your documentary, by the way, the other day. Yeah, I loved it. Being a film person who films stuff and produces stuff, that was really nice. I loved it. Really well, very good production values and very nice pool chat, by the way.

Thank you on both accounts. Yeah, I appreciate that. Jude out filling with me, we're going to try and get another episode out by the end of this month and I really need to like what I might even do some cold traffic funnels where I drive people to that video more and then have an opt in for my email list after because I really want to leverage that video more because I do think it's really good content. So I appreciate it.

That's the thing. Obviously I know you and I'm in RMB and stuff with you guys and I just think it is a very good. I know you like to sort of use multi use content and I think, you know, if they didn't even know who you were. I think it's a brilliant sales piece there. Absolutely.

Well, thanks, man. It's great hearing that. It's good validation because I'm really toying with trying to get that in front of more people. So thank you.

Yeah, definitely go for it. All right, cheers guys and thanks Ed for his emails. Enjoying them?

You got it, Chris.

Thank you. Chris.

Anything you want to add before the next one?

Yeah, just 8B 9F7413 like you keep hitting us up to all panelists. So if you have a question, put it in the Q and a. Q and A and then change your chat to be all panelists and attendees because you kind of keep just direct messaging us. But we're like, we're answering questions, looking at the chat and so I'm really happy you joined rnbc. He mentioned that I joined rnbc three days ago. I'm charging $200 for a sales letter on fiverr. What do I do to hunt high paying clients? There's a lot of stuff including watching these other videos and we've talked about it a ton. We kind of talked about what to do in today's episode too. There's a ton of free content. But also put the question in the Q and A. Anyway, next question. Ned, Do it.

By the way, who asked that David Ryan to get on my email list? Let me find the link real quick. Actually, let me ask the next question. I'll put it in the chat. Question from Eric Chen. If you wanted to start affiliate marketing business, what steps would you follow?

Nice. What's up, Eric?

Hello Stefan.

How you doing?

Very good, and you?

Hello. Doing well.

Yeah. So thank you for taking my question. Yeah, I would love to have your opinion. If you wanted to, let's say to get into the affiliate marketing business, what are the steps? Would you follow like on your perspective, what, what are the things you will.

Build.

To make that Happen.

Yeah. What kind of. Do you have any kind of specialty now? Like do you know how to do like Facebook ads? You know how to build landing pages, you know, SEO? Do you know how to do, you know, do paid media? Do you have any kind of specific. What kind of, what skills do you have right now?

Okay, so now I know kind of know how to build a funnel. I know how to write email, I know how to write a little bit of Facebook ads. I know also how to write a little bit of article. But if I can just, you know, just do a little thing, don't, you know, I don't want to do a lot of things at the same time. Naturally I have some money aside too, so I can afford to buy some traffic from Google on Facebook.

What kind of offers do you think you'd want to promote as an affiliate? Have you thought about that?

Actually I want to do some, some elearning stuff. So I don't want to sell, you know, any physical project. Just want to sell a, you know, how can I say that? Elearning stuff, you know, that you can only find on computer.

Yeah.

Physical.

But you want to be the affiliate for it, right? Or do you want to start a business that affiliates are going to then promote?

No, I want to be the affiliate.

Right. Okay, so why does it just have curiosity. Why. Why is it that you're more interested in the elearning? Like why. Why digital versus physical since you're only, you're promoting it, you're not gonna.

I think the digital one is more scalable. I don't know, it's just my guess. And it's more timeless. I think so.

Okay.

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean the one thing you'll find is that physical products will generally have a higher cpa, which for those watching who don't know what that is cost per acquisition. So generally, you know, for like a supplement or something like that, you might get a $95 or $100, you know, cost per acquisition. Whereas if an info products, you might get like a 30 or $40 cost per acquisition. You know, you can be successful with both for sure. But I would just say, you know, the right physical products can do, you know, are really good for affiliates. But I think. Yeah, but having a niche is good. I mean, because you said like elearning, but are we talking like self development, health? I mean you can do everything. Because my point, the reason I'm asking this is because like if it were me, I mean, what's the easiest thing to do is to build I mean, what you're doing, I mean I would probably. If you can run Facebook traffic and run direct ads to products, right? That's like a great way to go. It depends on the offer and all that kind of stuff. Like, right. Can you actually run Facebook ads to that offer or not? If it's like you know, some and you know, and how good you are at Facebook and what you're able to do and if you have a bunch of accounts and all that kind of stuff, like that's the fastest and easiest way is like run Facebook, try traffic to an offer. But you know, another option would be if you wanted to kind of create properties online, like you know, content based properties or even like an opt in type thing and then just like run traffic to those things to build lists. So kind of it's, you know, it's very timeless tactic. Right? But like maybe you have like a tripwire report if you were going to do. But like I would have it based on what you want to promote. So if you want to promote like health stuff, then you have like, you know, like 20 natural like health remedies that your doctor has probably never told you about. And it's like, you know, get this report inside, you're gonna discover this, this, this and this. Like you know, having a good landing page, run traffic to it, have people opt in. You know, you get the leads, you build up the email list, you have an autoresponder sequence where you're sending out emails to them with like, you know, more value and content, but then also promoting different offers with your affiliate link in them. And then you just have to watch and see like what is your cost per lead and are they self liquidating, Meaning that for every lead you get, are you breaking even or making money or are you losing money? And if you can, you know, you don't want to do so much with, you have like 2,000 leads, but they all suck. And you never like make any money from them and you wasted your money getting those leads. But if you're able to, you know, do it and you have even a couple hundred leads, leads to come in and your targeting is accurate on Facebook, the kind of tripwire is a good tripwire. The content's good and they're getting engaged and they're opening and then you're like right away promoting like a health supplement or a book or something like that, whatever it is, and some people are buying it and you. So you know, because if you get like a $95, let's say you get $100 CPA. And for every 100 people come in, then like one person buys that product. Right? That means basically you can afford to pay $1 per. Now in theory they're gonna buy more stuff in the future. So you're actually each leads worth more than a dollar. But at least to be kind of self liquidating, that's what you're looking at. Now if you can promote something when they first come in, that gets like 3 conversions and you get $300. Now you can afford to pay $3cpl and it's self liquidating. So like that's, you know, for a little bit of money. And if you know you're doing at Facebook and you want to like go back to the skills you have, like, that's another option. And over time you can build these really large lists of people and then you can segment them out. The people who convert. Now you have your buyers list, they can get different email. You can go really deep that way and have large email lists and promote and do all that kind of stuff. But even easier is to just run Facebook ads to offers as an affiliate. As long as you kind of know what you're doing and making sure you pick offers that convert to okay.

So you won't recommend to burn the list, right? Just to nurture it and just put some promo sometime. That's what you.

It depends. I mean, you could do both. Honestly, I would like to. I wouldn't burn it, but I would give them a promo right away. Like right when they opt in. I'd be like, hey, you know, here's like the report we promised. And by the way, you know, if you're interested in natural remedies, have you heard about this strange doctor in Michigan who discovered a secret like goo that can help to lower blood sugar fast, Whatever, blah, blah, click here and it goes like a blood sugar supplement. I'd have to say on day one for that because again, that's when they're hottest and warmest. And especially because they're coming. If you're getting kind of cold people coming in, I would be trying to like, you know, get conversions from that, like right away. And then I would probably promote, I would promote them pretty fast, but I would also provide valuable content so that they're not just coming in, getting burned on a bunch of like affiliate offers and then like unsubscribing. I would try to find a balance probably.

Okay, so you also write some article to build up your credibility. Something like that too.

I, I guess, yeah, but I mean, you Know, if it's, if it depends on the list, I mean, you could just run like a. Again, it could be like a book of like, again, using this health example, like, you know, 20, like natural remedies that your doctor probably never told you about. And like, you know, or maybe it's something more specific. But like, you know, if you have a good little landing page for that, then it doesn't really matter who you are. I mean, if you have like, you know, expert or someone to help you. And by the way, even when they opt in, even if you're not going to, you could just right then and there be like, you could have an affiliate offer after they opt in and be like, hey, so glad you're here by the way. Like, here's some more like, you know, important information you might benefit from. And you could have like three boxes on like the thank you page for opting in. And each one is like a summary of like kind of a good copy about some affiliate offer and a link, an affiliate link, and then another one, another one. So then after they opt in, they might click on one of those. So even before they get the email, they're clicking over to look at like a VSL or a tech sales letter for something you're promoting. And then like, you know, they might buy there and then you've got the first email where you're sending them the stuff and then inside the report that you're giving them the 20, like remedies or whatever it is. I'd have affiliate links there too. So I would be like almost. That's almost like a sales letter that's in selling them on like, you know, either one offer or maybe each remedy is a different thing that, you know, provide valuable content. But at the end of it it's like, oh, and by the way, if you want the fastest way to do this, like discover blah, blah, blah, click here, right? You just have a bunch of affiliate links in it. So now you're given all these opportunities to click and buy as long as the tracking is on place. I mean, like, it's pretty unlikely that if those people are decently targeted when they're coming into like your cold funnel, like, they're probably going to buy, some of them are going to buy something throughout that journey. And it's really just a math game of like knowing what your cost is, you know, to acquire your lead versus, you know, what you're making back for those leads and what the leads are worth. So, so that's kind of like, you know, that's sort of the strategy there, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, for the number. Okay.

Okay. Take notes for that.

Okay. Thank you so much, Steven. Thank you so much.

Yeah, happy to help. Yeah, I feel like, I don't know, the chat was pretty quiet while it's going on, but I feel like I just gave everyone like a, like a blueprint for how to like do affiliate marketing. Everyone's like, yeah, I don't want to do affiliate marketing, I want to write copy. But okay, I guess we can do add like one or two more it looks like. Yep.

Also talking to people in the chat about why some people are not getting my emails, which is because I have distanced myself, distanced myself from people who are students from my previous employer to respect the non compete and I don't want a lawsuit. Yes, social distancing. Exactly. Okay, great question here from Andrew Trachtman. He says how do you research higher ticket clients, especially if your client doesn't have much to work with. It's easier to hate when you guys like it. When I'm reading it goes at the top. It's easy to research more open groups but it seems harder to. Oh my God. Seems harder to find info on higher end clients.

What's up Andrew? Hey Stefan, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good.

Could be better but you know this, this questions kind of would make it better.

Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, give us a little context for this. You're trying to find higher ticket clients. What is a higher ticket client to you?

Yeah, in this case it's clients who tend to be in higher level groups. So seven figure plus sort of like war room probably like Dan Kennedy inner circle like these or J. Abraham like these higher end coaching. The people who, they need higher end focus and clarity and coaching so their problems are more indicative of that. It's less that instant gratification and where they're already winning and they just need to win more.

And what are we offering them to help them win more?

Basically one on one personal coaching for someone that I'm working for.

I mean the immediate challenge with that, not that it's not impossible but like the people you mentioned, like none of those people need coaching. You know what I mean?

Yeah, there's, there's a little bit of a. You know what I mean? It's, I'm kind of feeling a little stuck with that one.

I mean people get coaching so, so it's not that they don't need coaching but they're, they're very hard sell. Like if I go to like Jay Abraham and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm gonna give you some one on one consulting. Jay Abraham's gonna say, I don't know who you are. Go fuck yourself. Right, Dan Case.

I meant it in the reverse. In the reverse. Like the kinds of people who would be going to Jay Abraham.

Okay. Whoops. Yeah.

No, no, no one's coaching, Tinker.

Yeah, I know. It's like this is a very ambitious goal of your clients. I mean, you know, what's your client's budget?

They haven't told me.

Yeah, because like, I mean the biggest thing is like join the masterminds where those people hang out. Right. Or buy a high ticket product that has like a FB group, like a Facebook group where, you know, for their platinum people and those who are hanging out, I mean, that's where you kind of find those people. You know, Besides that, if you sort of know, I mean, that's the biggest, probably the easiest in a way, but does require money.

I was afraid you say that because I don't think that there's quite that.

Much of a budget for that.

I know, I do wonder. I mean, the coaching stuff's tough though, right? Because even that people, like, if this person, like, look, right, if I'm. This person wants to be my coach, but they like can't afford to be in like a group that I'm running in. Like, I don't know that I feel very comfortable investing in that person as a coach. Right. Like there's a credibility factor, especially at a higher level where you want to get like an eight figure, nine figure business owner to hire you to do coaching. But like you like, what's this? I mean, I know you can't give away the client, but I'm just sort of like thinking like, what's this person's credibility level.

Probably amongst entrepreneurs? If you haven't found this person by yourself, you probably wouldn't really know this person is my guess.

Do they have, I mean, what kind of track record do they have for the coaching itself?

I mean, they have coached a lot of high level people. Yeah, I wish I could say more about that one.

No, I know, I understand. More. I understand. Adam, you've done high ticket stuff and like some coaching things. I mean, do you have any thoughts on this?

Yeah. So basically you want to go after.

People.

Who are interested in, you know, who would be coached by J. Abraham. Why don't you just research what Jay's messaging is and just swipe that.

Wait, so clarify for both of us.

Well, I mean, if I understand correctly, like you guys are going after people who would go to J. Abraham.

Right?

Right. So why don't you just swipe J. Abraham's messaging? I mean, it works.

I'm like, yeah, he's the closest approximation I could think of. I know this. Actually, I just realized this one will help Stefan probably realize who I'm talking about. The closest thing right now is a tip of the spear from Mark Devine.

That.

That sort of level of coaching.

Interesting.

There was a certain something posted up in the. No, no, sorry, Copy Accelerator Light group not too long ago that gives you the key you need.

Got you. Yeah, I mean, I'm still thinking about the strategy though. Like what it is especially for. I mean, how many, how many of these clients? Because this person, it's not like an. They don't want a bunch of coaching clients. They want like a handful of really good high ticket coaching clients. Right? Yeah.

I just don't know if they're like, how is it that if they're credible and they have all this experience, they don't even have like a big budget. That's just like. That just doesn't make sense to me.

It's mostly because I don't think they're going to give that budget to me.

To do the research.

Well, are they getting clients right now? I mean, like, honestly. I mean that makes sense, but like, but what do they want you to do? What is your job for them then? Is it just.

Yeah, RMB, basically R& B. So you do the research, write the.

Sales letter.

But your main job is to write the sales letter, right?

Yes.

Okay, so this isn't entirely your problem. What you need to do is, I mean, you just need to know. Yeah, I get you want to. So you're basically asking is you want to know more about. This is specific to research for rnbc. Like how do you research those people? How do you know what they're. Right. Okay, that helps me a lot actually. But I mean, I think, you know, it still comes back to, I don't know, there's different stuff you could do. Like you could post into justin7 talk copy and be like, hey, question for you. Who folks have done at least seven figures? Like I'm writing up like an offer that's, you know, kind of targeted towards you, honestly. And I'm trying to do the research. It's hard. There's not like a bunch of, you know, super like high level, you know, besides paid masterminds, which I, you know, can't really do for My part of my budget for this. But like, you know, what are the xyz? Ask them the questions that would be relevant if you just post in that. I think you would get some seven, eight and nine figure people to respond. Yeah, I'm more on the seven figure level. Which by the way are the ones that probably you are most likely to take that anyway. The coaching offer. Because someone who's done seven figures wants to be like, I've done seven figures. Especially in like a public group where it's like I'm successful but like. Which is. I'm not. It's just human nature. I'm not, I'm not, you know, ragging on anybody for that. But. But yeah, I think like putting that into like the Justin 7 talk copy group could be a good start.

Yeah. Any. Is it like coaches and consultants? Is that who you're helping your clients? Helping the clients?

Helping. It can be. It can be people that are still A surprising number of them are still full time employees.

Oh, okay.

So it would be to help them start their own businesses or to get out of it.

Okay.

That's what I'm gathering from the things we have.

So you. We're having a difference. A few different conversations here. Because yeah, maybe, maybe I'm stuck on the Jay Abraham thing. But someone who's in a job is not gonna know who the hell Jay Abraham is. They're not gonna have a business. So is this like a biz op to help people get out of their job or is this to help people who are currently coaches or whatever it is to make more money faster, easier with less effort.

The honest. Here's the best way I can describe it. It's focus and mindset. Coaching.

There we go.

That's exactly what it is. Sorry.

For before like employees who want to.

For any. At the moment it just seems like anyone with a budget, which is why.

I'm having trouble here. So to me, I think before like. And it's definitely get your opinion on this. I think to me before being able to move forward with this client, you really have to get clear on what it is that they do.

Yeah.

Otherwise it doesn't matter. Cause it's always offer and then you like, you see where the offer fits in with the market.

Like.

Cause if it sells, it sells. But like who are you selling to and what are you selling? That's at the end of the day what needs to be clarified before you can even do research.

I agree with that, Andrew. I think like, I think you need more clarity from the client and understanding that. Cause it does, it does seem like. Yeah, like the part about people interested in like mindset and things like, okay, that's helpful. But like, you know, kind of figuring out from the client who it is that they're actually. Who are you going after? You know, I mean, I feel like we can't quite answer that yet. Then it's hard for us to be able to give you better advice. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. So talk to the client about it, get a little bit clearer on that and then we can circle back from there.

Yeah, that makes sense why it's so confusing then.

Thank you.

Yeah, no problem, man. Thank you. Okay. And I know we will wrap up here in a second. That's not what we decided about Andrew, though, is like, I just want to point out that that's a pretty. That's actually pretty common, like even in Copy Accelerator. Justin. I see that a lot. It's gotten better with the members of Copy Accelerator, you know, because it's been like a couple years now or whatever, but a year and a half. But even early on, a lot of like people, higher level who just kind of don't know who they're actually going after. And then it's like impossible. If you don't know who you're selling to, you'll never sell to them. Right. So it sounds really basic, but I want to give Andrew the love of letting him know. Andrew and you know, that you're, you know, don't be like, don't feel embarrassed or something that if you don't know that. Because a lot of high level people still have that same issue. But we kind of go, we're sort of like, we always say don't ask. Or we sort of try and like, well, maybe I can just go up forward without having that dialed in. But you can't. This is a really fundamental and important thing. So that's about it. And other than that, we are going to wrap up. I'm going to be respectful of Ed's time and honor it. Everyone who joined, thank you so much. If you didn't have your question answered, I. Sorry about that. We'll try and get to it next week. Also though, if you don't go to YouTube, listen to this on itunes for sure. Listen to podcasts, listen to every episode if you're listening on itunes. Thank you for listening. Hopefully you're subscribed and you'll share this with others. Also, the replays are on YouTube and we have the timestamps in the description. So if you haven't gone through old episodes, go look at the timestamps and the descriptions for these old episodes of the Road to a Billion and you may find the question that you had has already been answered. And then on YouTube as well, please, like, subscribe, comment, all of that. But thank you everyone, so much. Ed, thank you. You have any amazing last words to share with everybody?

Send samples to clients. There you go.

Good stuff there. Awesome. Thank you, Ed. And yeah, I think everyone will see you all next week. Thank you so much.