[RTB:E16] "Lessons From 20 Years and $300MM+ in Sales” (w/ Scott Rewick)" - The Road to a Billion

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi, and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call in radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. The reason for the name Road to a Billion is because I should hit like a billion dollars in sales this year for both my own products. And those are the clients who I write copy for. And then I want to make a impact in the lives of a billion people over the next 10 years. And that's like emotional, spiritual, financial, some kind of like meaningful impact. So we'll start taking, you know, questions in about five, I don't know, realistically, about 10, 15 minutes from now. And the way it works is you put your questions into the Q and A section in Zoom. Then Ed Ray will review those questions and feed them to myself and also Scott, who I want to introduce in a second and we'll answer as many as we can. So, Ed, do you want to go ahead and quickly say hello and introduce yourself to everybody?

Hi, my name is Ed Ray. I'm wearing a shirt today, and I specialize in Facebook compliance and helping people scale compliantly on Facebook without the fear of the good old Zuck Banhammer.

So it's a good thing. It's a needed, needed skill. And then I'm also joined today with our special guest is Mr. Scott Roeck. Scott, I kind of just pulled stuff off of like a banner I found about you. I want to, we'll go more into your career, but, you know, I know you've, you've been in the space for 20 years, which is actually something I want to talk about a good amount today because I think that it's nice thing to have longevity. I think it's one thing to come in and have success for a year or two or you have one offer that scales or, you know, whatever it is, but to kind of be in the space for 20 years, like you've seen a lot of things, and I just think you have a lot of wisdom. So I'm really excited for that. And then in addition to that, I know You've generated over $300 million in sales, mostly for your own kind of like companies, which is, which is cool. So now as an affiliate, not as a copywriter, but as an in the trenches entrepreneur, you've raised over $30 million in venture financing. And you're just a really smart guy, really humble, really Funny and a really good friend. At my wedding, we were, like, not allowed to have. Laura did not let me invite people in the industry to our wedding because she was like, oh, I don't want this to turn into, like, a mastermind at our wedding. But then Scott was like, I really want to come.

Most people know how hard I had to lobby you, Stephanie. I was on my knees begging. I just had to go to this wedding. So. And you're right. It was under the auspice of, like, do not turn this into a mastermind. Do not joke about, you know, platinum. And, you know, this is our wedding. And so was I okay? I was okay, right?

You did quite well. You really. You made it, man. You made it an extra special time. But, yeah, you lobbied me. And then I had to lobby, like, Laura and how to get a whole presentation. It's like, you know, Scott Roic at our wedding and, you know, PowerPoint, everything.

The whole thing, sales letter, BSL or.

No, you know what? I just went with the onstage pitch, so I had my clicker and the laser pointer, you know, and, well, it worked.

So. Thanks, Laura.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. No, and it was. It was a blast. So obviously, Scott, I've known you for a few years back, so for people, too, who are watching, you have talked about going to that kind of weekend mastermind at a chateau in France and how that was, like, this big moment for me because I was really a fledgling young upstart and felt kind of out of my league and overwhelmed and all that. Although Scott didn't know that at the time. But. But Scott and his partner at the time, Chris Clark, are the ones who put that event on. And so that was really cool. That's when we first met, and then obviously we stayed friends since. So that was three, four years ago. Four years ago.

I want to say it's nearly five years ago, I would think.

Yeah, yeah. Good long while, man. But that was super fun. And we got drunk on a wine tasting thing, but not on wine, on whiskey.

And that was really fun because you had coveted this special bottle that you found in this random town in France that you had just. You said, this is the bottle I've been looking for for years. And you were so stoked. And you were. And it was, let's drink it. And we drank the whole bottle on our wine tasting tour. So I felt very guilty. Do you remember what that was? It was a very special bottle of.

I don't even remember, but I remember it was delicious. I know I should remember, but I don't remember a lot after we drank the bottle. But I remember that though, because at the wine cave, these wine caves in France, and like, one of the people in the group was like a really big wine enthusiast and he was like, so excited. And we're on this wine tour and you know, it's France, so they're pretty like, proud of their wine and like they're trying to take us on this tour and share, you know, information. And we were just like super drunk and obnoxious and like wandering down like caves that we weren't supposed to go into.

And the ugly American, right?

Yeah, we were just like the complete prototypical, like obnoxious American, just super, super scotch drunk, just taking pool. We were just like taking pools from the bottle. This was pre Covid and you could just pass a bottle around, you know. Oh, man. What I was gonna say was one. Scott, I feel like people are. There's only one question in here which I'm surprised about. Cause like, I think. But I think it's cause they're a little intimidated by you as someone who's like, actually run a business and done all these incredible things. I don't know. Now that's two. We got a second question, but I'd love to see people popping in your questions about stuff. But Scott, maybe people have more questions as you share a bit about your background, your story and your history as well. So I'd love if you could take a few minutes to do that, Scott.

Yeah, sure. This is always my least favorite topic, talking about myself, but I'll give it my best shot. I mean, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area. I went to school in LA back in the 90s when most of people on this call were probably 10 or 15 years old or something. But I got lucky to move back to the bay area in 1996, and there was a lot going on there. I call it like the first wave of the Internet marketing madness was happening. And so I was just very fortunate to kind of get a. Get a job essentially with an Internet startup that ended up selling for a bunch of money. But I was kind of like. I felt like I had found my home at that point because I had kind of a rather checkered job career up to that point. In terms of being an employee. I just really ended up not being a good employee. But I was fortunate enough to kind of really be surrounded by a lot of really intelligent, smart people doing cool things when we were really at its infancy in terms of online marketing. So first and foremost, I think I'm just super lucky, like right place, right time. Because in the Bay Area there was just a lot going on with this new medium of online advertising. So yeah, I mean my first real kind of like foray into entrepreneurship was a company called metareward. It was originally called netflip, but it really ended up becoming one of the first affiliate networks out there where we essentially tried to marry advertisers like Columbia House, Netflix, those of you remember Columbia House, American Express with this new set of affiliates that were doing super interesting things. And as I kind of alluded to earlier, more often than not they were kind of the misfits. They were the 18 year old, 17 year old kids that had figured out how to become affiliates back in, you know, 2000, stuff like that. So a long time ago, anyway, that's really kind of how I jumped into the space back with metal reward. We sold that company to Experian for 30 million bucks, which was great. And then I moved on to create a company called NetBlue with a guy that, who ended up being my biggest affiliate guy named Ken Chan. And we grew that company quite a bit. Maybe $120 million in revenue. We were really kind of doing two things. We were doing a direct to consumer. We were one of the first guys to do like the get a free hundred dollar gift card from Visa by signing up for American Express, these types of things. And we grew that quite big. We raised 30 million bucks in capital or 20 million bucks in capital. And that had a life of its own, you know. Then from there, you know, kind of branched out and did a number of different things with different companies. Started a company called Next Internet with my partner, we built a big list management business called Web Juice. Got that to about like 80 million bucks. Did some direct to consumer stuff. Yeah. So I mean that then morphed into a bunch of other stuff that I could bore you with. The last six years in particular, I've been focused on building a company called Native Path with my partner at the time, Chris Clark. We were very, very new to the direct to consumer health space. So I feel like we kind of like stumbled along in the first year or two trying to understand what a VSL was and info products and that whole world. And then we scaled that to about 30 million bucks a year. And then about a year ago I took some time off to go spend time with my son, which is basically how I spend most of my time now just being a dad. But yeah, I mean it's like it's been amazing. It's been an amazing run over 20 years to see not only how the industry's evolved, but just the level of sophistication that it's gotten to and how really open it is to make a ton of money and do really well in this space. So, yeah, more than anything else, man, I just feel very fortunate. I love what I do. I am super boring at cocktail parties because I just want to talk about AOV and LTV and offer bumps and like all that stuff that nobody else wants to talk about. So I'm super awkward, you know, Massive introvert. You would characterize yourself as an introvert, Stefan?

Yeah, I would. Yeah. We've talked about with going on Adderall for my ADD has helped to tip the scales more where I'd say I'm more 50 50, but I still need naturally I'm an introvert for sure. And then even if like I am going out and like being act, I can do it pretty well, but I still need that recharge time. Like I need to go hide away.

I think you and I were talking about, like, finding times to make up the fact that you have to go to the bathroom and then like going to a stall and just being like, okay, cool, and then resetting yourself. I totally am that guy. But anyway, I get charged out of talking about online marketing, E commerce. It really is kind of my hobby. I do. I'm fascinated with why people buy. I think that's probably like my life work is like, what causes people to buy. So I'm enamored with copywriters. They're able to do what they do. So, yeah, I just feel like with someone who also has add, I feel like a kid in the candy store because you can jump to all these different topics of like, traffic or, you know, conversion or copy or, you know, in my case, you know, mids or customer service. There's so many different areas that are endlessly fascinating that you can jump into that make it really a fun place for me to be in. So I'm. I'm just super lucky, man. I just feel very, very blessed.

Yes. That's amazing. And it is such a cool story. And I feel like I closed out my Facebook, like live and all that. I mean, still on. It's on Facebook Live, but I don't have it open because I'm like, from the Internet standpoint, I don't want to drain bandwidth and disappear again. But for those watching on Facebook Live as well, hopefully a lot of people are and a lot of people will see this replay but like, I feel like I'm really honored to have you because you have, you're such, like I said, such a nice and, and humble guy. Like even in I was putting in our Justin stuff and talk copy Facebook group and they're like, oh, I was talking to Scott Roche about like it was like boats or something and I had no idea that it was like wooden, like paddle boats. But I had no idea he was so successful. You're like, yeah, because like, you know, you keep it under the radar and. But part of that too probably Scott, I mean it's like after 20 years in the industry and having had a lot of success, it's like you start to realize, I would imagine like that you're like, yeah, it is cool that you've accomplished those things, but it's like, you know, I think you do a good job not letting numbers define you. And I think is that something that you feel like early on, were you always that way or did you sort of learn that over time?

I think over time. I mean in my 30s when I was like hard charging, you know, we had these VC backed companies, we were trying to make a billion bucks. Like I was very, I don't know, it was much more concerned about my impact and everybody has that number like, oh, I want to get to 10 million bucks in revenue or net worth and then I'll retire or whatever. But I was much more like kind of that prototypical like Silicon Valley, you know, 80 hour week guy that was just trying to crush it and make all this money and stuff like that. And I think that, I don't know, maybe it's age or whatever, but over the years I've mellowed quite a bit. I'm more into, you know, my family and my kid and stuff like that. That has mellowed me quite a bit. I mean, I'm still super competitive and I see it as a game to be able to kind of like create these companies. But yeah, I think I've mellowed in terms of like needing to have a number or you know, needing to post a picture of my Ferrari or whatever. It's just not really my deal. I'm a pretty private person, kind of prefer that way. But I'm still relatively competitive. But I take it I slow down a little bit. You know what I mean? I'm in Sonoma. I've got chickens and some land and gardening and I still love what I do. But I'm not like, I don't need to, like, there's not a lot left to prove for me in terms of like, hitting these big numbers. I've hit, you know, over $100 million in revenue once I've hit, you know, I've created a bunch of these companies. And it just doesn't, I mean, it doesn't really. It's just a number, right? It's not. I don't know. So.

No, that makes sense. A couple more questions and we will. We'll get to answering in the Q and A's as well. But. Well, one would be. I know you always talked about how with you and Chris when you guys were partnered, that I think it was that you played defense, right? And Chris played offense. And then Justin and I have kind of stolen that because I think it's the same way where Justin plays defense and I play offense with what we do. And I'm like the super optimistic, like, everything's gonna go amazing all the time. And Justin's super like, yeah, everything, The Lego Movie song, like, just a walking embodiment of it. And, you know, Justin's like, it's all going to shit tomorrow. But I'm curious about that with you guys and with, you know, either you can talk about native path specifically or, you know, maybe just in kind of generally when you approach things in business, why. I guess, why is it that you are more focused on defense? And how does that actually like, manifest itself?

Well, I, you know, I didn't. I would probably count myself as one of those that would disdain defense. Six years ago, when I first contemplated it, like, I. I thought to myself, like, oh, CEO. And I've been a CEO a bunch of times, and I have all these great ideas and I always say, like, I could smell money pretty good. And I was. I always had a team of people to kind of like, build what I wanted to build. I had it in my head of like, this is what we're going to do. And when I met Chris, Chris, amazingly beautiful, awesome man, also had this kind of like this bull in a China shop approach, like, we're going to crush it. We're going to do this, we're going to do this. And it occurred to me, I don't know when exactly, but if you have two people like this hard charging, not only will it be a hard partnership, because you guys, you may want to go in different directions, but you're going to leave a big mess behind you. And so I made the choice. I thought to myself, what do I want to do that I'm not good at? And it was those things that I, it was the Things that nobody really wants to do. And since then, I've really fallen in love with that because I believe that's. If you want to scale and sustain, scale and make a ton of money, I believe that defense is arguably way more important than offense. But I mean, I essentially had a dinner with Chris and said, chris, what do you not want to do? How can I keep you in your zone of genius? Your zone of geniuses? We started the Paleo Seeker. He was really big about Paleo, and he lived the life and he wanted to create an info product. But okay, in that. In that idea, what are some of the things that you don't want to do? And he was very clear. He's like, I don't want to talk to people. I don't want to talk to vendors. He's introverted, like me, Far more introvert. Well, I guess he would say he's introverted, but I don't deal with people well. I don't want to do vendors, taxes, insurance, mids, customer service, like, everything. And I kind of had to take a deep breath and be like, okay, like, not my favorite topics in the world either. But realizing that I wanted to be successful, I'm like, I'm going to do all of that for you. I'm going to do that. And so I felt like I had. And what was cool about that is I put on kind of a learning mindset that I wasn't good at that stuff, but I wanted to learn. And that kind of helped fuel me, like, this idea of keeping. Keep learning things. So. So it was really just, you know, we arrived at that just based on the idea that I knew two people that were hard charging are gonna create a lot of messes behind you. And those messes are what will kill you. Those messes are what will kill a business. And you see it, right? You see it all over the place. Guys at scale, they crush it. And then just like six months later, they're gone, or three months later, they're gone. And so I just didn't want to be one of those companies. So that's. That's. That began my love affair with playing defense. But it's not my natural state, which was good.

Yeah, it is good. But that. But it's interesting. And then again, taking. But I love that idea of going to your business partner and saying that, right? What do you not like? What do you hate doing, right? And then finding a way to be complimentary instead of being like, hey, we're both going to do the same thing. And then it Makes perfect sense. I think that's for Justin and myself of Copy Accelerator and what we're doing, which has gone really well and way better than I maybe would have even expected. And the same thing there. I mean, Justin and I are radically different, but I'm like, I feel like I had the experience to recognize that that was an asset and a strength. But I feel very fortunate that that was the case, because I think if I'd been less experienced, I'd been like, oh, my God, this guy's way too different. This won't work. But really, you're like, oh, no, that's an incredible asset. Like having, you know, my opposite is like, the perfect setup. You know, assuming that the person is, you know, is smart and driven. You have, you know, it's been alignment of goals, of course. Right? It's like, we have the same, you know, goal, but, like, we're gonna. I'm gonna focus on getting us, like, doing this to get us here, and he's gonna be over here. And you and Chris have that same dynamic, it seems like.

Yeah. And I think that there is a natural disdain for the other side. Like, in other words, you know, affiliates have this natural disdain for the product owners because they're like, well, you know, if I own the product, then I could get all the commission. And the product owners are like, oh, these affiliates, all they do is they run traffic. And, you know, the same type of dynamic occurs in companies of someone who, say, is the CEO versus the back office stuff, you know? And so I think it was really important for me to go through that process to get such a deep understanding and appreciation for all the little things that go with these businesses. Right. Like, there's so much support that happens underneath a company that does 50 million bucks that kind of goes under the radar that no one knows about. And that's the stuff that I really like, because I don't necessarily like being the face of the company. Chris had a desire to be the CEO, which I'm like, be the CEO. That's awesome. And I have. I don't have that bug in me that gets validation for any of that stuff. So, yeah, I mean, it is a good lesson that I think entrepreneurs need to learn is looking at everything else other than just, like, what I would consider offense, which is like, the copy or the DSL or the distribution, all that stuff. Obviously, you need to have that stuff. But the back. The back office stuff is where I've. It's my current love affair, I would say. Yeah. Keeps businesses alive.

It does I mean, I've made that mistake where I scaled really fast. I mean, it's funny, maybe I'd be curious to get your opinion on this because I was really. Even if you talked to me two years ago, I would have always been talking about hockey sticks. Like how into hockey sticking, like that growth, like for those who don't know what I'm talking about, where, you know, it's like, you know, you're right here and then you just like, you go straight up. Right. And then in like the last, honestly three months, like six months, I finally been like, oh, you know what? Like having hockey stick growth isn't actually always great. Like, turns out if you don't have this firm foundation and like all the other things in place and you hockey stick, it's just like, like if you, if something breaks when you're going like this, it's like, okay, you fix it and be kind of meander a little bit. You keep going up. But saying breaks when you're in the middle of hockey sticking, it's like very hard to fix it. And the problems are amplified by 10. And that was a really, I mean it's maybe super obvious, but I was like, damn. Like that was a big realization I recently had because to your point, yeah, it's like a lot can break as you're, as you're scaling and as you're growing.

Yeah. And that's when the fda, the ftc, your mid shutdown, like, it's just, it's really, it's. The attorney general called you. It's like. And I think that you almost have to go through that as a young man or young woman to like see that and to feel that like I could count on, you know, both hands. Friends who have been sued by the ftc and you know, they say it's one of the best experiences of their life, despite it sounding really horrible. And it is. But I think it's a young man's game or a young woman's game to kind of like pursue that hockey stick approach. And then when you get smacked down and you realize you lost everything, I think that's when you take more of a longer term reasoned approach and say like, like hockey stick growth is possible and it's great. I mean there's, there's. God, you look at. I know. Brad, Brad over at research. I mean these things are possible, but I became more concerned about like keeping your money, staying out of trouble and building businesses that not just you spend all this time building and cranking away at, but then you Know, it's gone in a year or two years and all this work kind of like, where did it all go? So, yeah, I'm right there with you, man. I have such an appreciation for both sides. I mean, guys that can create the offer, but equally guys that can sustain it and keep it as a real business.

Yeah, 100%. Let me ask one more question before we go into the Q and A stuff. I'd be curious. I mean, over, you know, 20 years, 20 plus years, what is like one of the. And I'm sure there's countless. But what's like one of the biggest kind of mistakes you made with like one of your, you know, companies and, you know, kind of like what happened and what was like a learning experience from it? I say countless because obviously like, that's like the secret, right? Everyone who has had success means they've had a ton of like, failures. And I mean failures like, like that they're permanent failures. But setbacks, trials and things you've done wrong.

There's so many, dude, we, like, I have messed up so many times. It's remarkable that a lot of these businesses are still alive despite. I mean, when we went into the physical product space, we turned transition and Paleo Secret into Native path. We became kind of like a digital marketer that turned into a supplement company. And I ordered nearly half a million dollars worth of probiotic based on a sales forecast that ultimately didn't come through or change distribution channel that dried up. So it's like you're selling 500 bottles a day and you could forecast out. It takes 12 weeks to get the product. And anyway, I ordered nearly half a million dollars worth of product. And then literally like right after the ink dried, like the sales channel went away, we were selling like five bottles. And so you're stuck with like, you know, whatever the number is, 300, $400,000 worth of inventory that you can't move. I mean, dude, that's one of. I could give you 50 just like this. When we took money from a VC, we brought in a new management team, all these MBAs, that was problematic. There are the times where you start to build a company to sell it and you have this mythical buyer of the guy that's going to buy it or the gal that's going to buy it. So you start building your company to satiate the desires of someone who might buy it. And that's a mistake. I mean, dude, I've made so many mistakes. I'm just. I'm just shocked that I'm still Even around in this space. But that's the beauty of it, is you can kind of make these mistakes and come back and keep fighting and not make them again. And that's just. I think the beauty of just doing it for a long time is you see a lot of this stuff happen over 20 years. You know, when to move into markets, when to get out of markets. I've seen, you know, the FTC come in and slash and burn all the acai colon, cleanse resveratrol guys back in the day. I mean, so, yeah, dude, we could talk for hours about this, but I've made a lot of mistakes, and I just learned, you know, just hope that I don't make them again or I can teach people not to make them again because they're not fun.

Yeah, no, that's an awesome point, because I think that's the way I look at it. I mean, this is nothing revolutionary, but it's like, I don't mind making a mistake. I just don't want to make it the same mistake twice. Right, right. That's really it. And I kind of did it with the agency, so I've done it before. I did do it, and. But then. All right, well, I'm not gonna make it a third time.

What was your mistake with the agency?

Well, remember, like, you know, because I had, like, red ox, which I remember telling you about, and I kind of being like, this is the most brilliant model ever. Some, you know, full service. Like, I'm doing everything like, you know, you just give us money.

Build a.

For them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then realizing, like, okay, like, somebody's gonna pay me $50,000 to just write copy. But I'm like, no, instead of that, let me also build your funnel. Do the design, the dev, help you with customer service, get you, like, you know, like, your merchant accounts, and then only drive traffic as an affiliate network. And the real. The real killer there was the affiliate network because, like, then. Because I'm doing everything, like, there was no ownership for the person, right? It wasn't like, you know, like, Mike. Mike Geary comes to you and is like, hey, I'm gonna pay you $50,000 to write a letter. And you're like, okay, cool. You know, you give them the letter, they'll put into production, and it can make them millions of dollars, and it's great. Instead, it was like, people who was like a biz op almost, right? And so you get these, like a set it.

Forget it. Like, you. It's, like, done for you. I'll Build you a multi million dollar business for you.

Exactly. And then. So when you do that and they give you money and then even the copy is good. If, like, you're struggling to get traffic, right, it's like a. Okay, then they're pissed off at you. Then if you do get them traffic, they have no idea how to actually manage the cash flow or the money. So then, like, they're like, they don't if they're profitable or not. They're like, all that shit's happening. So then they can't pay the affiliates. So then, like, you know, like, I literally, in the last. It's pretty much at this point done, but took like two years. I had to pay. I mean, I think. I think it's okay. I had to pay Daniel to $240,000 over the last 60 days because of, like, affiliates that have, like, our people from that agency back in the day that never, like, basically paid their bills. And then we got stuck with them. And, you know, then I had to have that whole, like, I'm like, do I try and tell Daniel, like, well, hey, I got fucked, so you're getting fucked. I was like, honestly, it's better to just, you know, pay it. And your reputation is important and whatever, but, you know, I literally set the last of those three. I basically was like, hey, let me space out over 60 days. And Daniel was like, fine, I think just happy to be actually getting his money. But I literally set the last wire for that yesterday. And so, you know, super frustrating because then, I mean, literally, that's just one example where there's legitimately, like, at least a million dollars that I ended up kind of like eating for different reasons because of, like, the affiliate network and then model and like, so then I'm like, looking at my, you know, your checking accounts. I've got, you know, like, investments and all kinds of different shipping. So you're like, I should have an extra million bucks here. But to your point, it still is. Like, I mean, A, I don't think I'm gonna make the mistake a third time. So I feel pretty good about. I think it hurt enough this time. But then B, it's like. I don't know. Fuck. I was gonna say. Actually, I kinda lost my train of thought, but I'm glad it happened kind of.

It's like, I don't know, it's like, you know, your kid or something, you have to let your kid fall down. Like, it's. You have to have it happen because if it. Yeah, I totally agree, dude. Like, and It's. It's awesome that you're just that upfront about it. But, yeah, I could, I could list, you know, all the different times. I mean, one of the things that it reminds me of is just like, being singular focused. Like, I always thought, like, I was smart enough to be like, you know, run these six different companies and, you know, be, oh, how many companies do you have? I've got eight companies. And I'm like, at first I was envious of that. Like, whoa, you've got eight companies? I'm like, Then I'm like, you're an idiot, dude. Because, like, that's so dumb. Because, like, I don't know, like, you're not Elon Musk. I'm sorry. Like, it's just not like you got to do one thing and do it exceedingly well because, you know, if you're spread too thin or you're doing too many things, in my experience, it's never going to work. I had this experience at Next Internet. We had a kind of an incubation company. We raised 5 million bucks and started six different companies. And, you know, one succeeded out of the six, but you end up spending all your time on the losers that don't make it. Well, you should just, like, cut their throats and move on. But, yeah, man, I mean, I think you have to kind of walk that walk. And that's maybe what experience does is you get. You build up, you get smacked down and you just, like you said, you just hope you don't do it again. But yeah, I agree.

Yeah. And being resilient, too. I mean, because I think the thing that, the point I was going to make when I kind of zoned out for a second on it, but you'll blame the add, but was really just like, but once that happened and even, you know, like, like if you go back to these different things, like, I've, you know, I have my own hard luck stories and things, and it's always just like, okay, I can let that define me or I can give up. And you, you want to sometimes, like, when you get like, I had a venture with, with somebody. I've talked about this before. We were in CBD too early. They were telling me about it a little bit, but then we ended up getting, you know, like 2 million bucks basically just. Yeah, like, you know, that we never got. And like, you know, there's. There's a moment to sit there and be like, I don't want to. I don't have the energy to go through this again. Like, this Sucks. Like, you're trying to fight. You're, like, looking at legal stuff, and. But then it's like, okay, well, if I'm not gonna ever get to where I want to go if I just give up, like, I mean, it's like you keep moving forward, and every time you do that, like, ultimately, like, yeah, I'm in a way better place today than I was back then. And, like, I think that's where it's.

Great to have a good partner. Stefan, like, honestly, like, I remember just hearing you say that, you know, during the early years of Paleo Secret, when Chris and I were fumbling along trying to figure out, like, you know, digital products or info products or direct to consumer or the health space. Like, there were so many times I was just like, chris, this is just not gonna work, dude. Like, you know, the first year, I think the first year, we might have done, like, 400 grand in revenue, but we just worked tirelessly, you know, to give birth to any idea or company just requires, like, tireless, you know, thankless work of just like, okay, I'm gonna set up a new email address. I'm gonna. It's just like. And I can't tell you that, you know, during those few lean years where you just want to quit, you just like, I can't do this. And that's where having a partner is so valuable, because, as I was coming down saying, we just must suck. We can't figure out how to be the next Mike Geary. Like, or why can't we break into this space? Chris would be like, we're going to do this. We're going to figure this out, keep going. And then conversely, you know, when Chris was down, I would lift him up. So that's. I really feel like a partnership, if done well, can really keep you in the game longer than you might keep yourself, because you're going to experience very uncomfortable things and big failure along the way. And it's not for everybody. Some people just like, I'm done. I'm out. I can't do it. So, yeah, it's good.

No. Yeah, that's awesome.

And did you have a partner? Did you have a partner that kept you in the game that, like, you said, like, stefan, don't give up. Or is that just. You're just gonna stick with it?

It's been more me, but I've had a good support network. I mean, for me, a lot of it, too, is. I think I always talk about the importance of, like, masterminds and, you know, and for me, like, a Mastermind is like when you go and someone's like, you know, this one little like, button, like, hack that increased conversion. I literally shared one at our event because we did like a checkout page, like, change the wording on our, like the checkout button and increased conversions by 20%. It's like, that's cool. I like, that doesn't happen all the time, but it's like, I love those wins because they're easy to do. You share them, great. But like, that's valuable. But like, to me, the real value of it is again, it's like the relationships and networks, like the fact that you and I are friends, you're at my wedding, and here you are doing this. And really. So I think for me, with my first house company, I really felt like on an island, as a lot of entrepreneurs do, and then going to like a mastermind and realizing that there was like a community of other people who were going through similar things. And then that was huge.

Yeah, no, I mean, the Mastermind in France. I mean, you were there. And I remember Jason Christie at Straw House basically saying, you know, in front of a room of whatever, 10 people, and these were people that are doing pretty well. Like, hey, if you guys are not doing video on Facebook, you're a bunch of idiots. I remember Chris and I going back that day and just like typing in, like, to our tech team, like, get video on Facebook and oh my God, it worked. Holy crap, you're selling a ton. So, yeah, I think it's. You're right. Like, I think we have a very tight knit community of people that have kind of this abundance mindset where we can share stuff. And again, it's just, it comes down to little things that can just make the world a difference. I mean, or when we first started, we didn't even know what an autoresponder was. And Tyler Bramlett, God bless him, was like, dude, I'm gonna write an autoresponder for you guys because you bring in 5,000 leads a day and you don't know what the hell you're doing. And we're like, thank you. We didn't know what we're doing. And so Tyler, like wrote us his whole thing and saved our butts, man. So, yeah, it's sometimes it's like the little things like that come out of nowhere that make the biggest difference. And so you're right. Like having a community of people that support you and love you and surround you, I think keeps you in the game longer.

100%. I completely agree. But I Do want to go? I know we got about 16 questions in the Q and A now, so let's go through as many as we can here. So, Ed, by the way. Hi. I know you've been. I saw you sneezing a minute ago. God bless you. You know. Thank you.

I feel. No, I got blessed. Didn't have to go to church. How amazing is that?

And so the way it's to work is, Ed, like, yo, we'll have you kind of pick the people we're going to answer the questions for, give like a little summary of what they're asking. And then Scott will let those people come on. We'll unmute them, let them kind of ask their question to kind of replicate the call in radio show experience, which is just kind of fun. I like it. And then plus, we can be more interactive that way. And then you and I can, you know, try and provide any insights that we may have. And you know, we don't always have the answer, but, like, we can share our thoughts on stuff. Cool, too.

So, Scott, sit back, relax, enjoy the show. I got you.

But also answer a lot of questions.

And by the way, you've got like, epic eyebrows, bro.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Like, Stefan has good eyebrows, but your eyebrows are, like, just slightly better.

I'm known for my wiggly eyebrows.

Can you wiggle them or no?

Oh.

My gosh. So I'm going to ask a question here from Damie, but I do have a question for you afterwards for my personal self. So Dami asks. I'm going to summarize it. We talked about this last time, Stephanie. So basically he wants to know about the differences between copywriters that you hire and don't hire. So we're going to let Dani come on. He's going to expand his question, and then we'll get your response. Stefan made you co host? Yeah, I'm co host. For some reason, I'm not allowed to unmute Dami. Really?

What the f. Let me see if I can find. I'll find Dami. Allow to talk. I wonder if it's like a new setting. I just hit. I'm hitting a lot of talk. Try now. Any luck?

No.

That's bizarre. Let me try. I'm gonna hit answer live and then try now.

Nope.

I wonder if it's a zoom glitch or something here. I was so excited to.

I know. It was such a good question too.

Well, we can still answer. Danny. I'm sorry. Then I guess for now we'll answer it. So go ahead and Read this question then Scott, and I will answer it.

As someone who has hired a lot of copywriters, what's the one thing you found that differentiates those that end up working with you for a long time and those you don't ever want to work with again?

I can answer that, Stefan. For me, it sounds so basic, but are they easy to work with? Maybe at my advanced age, I'm 50 something. But I pay particular attention to how easy it is to work with somebody. And if there's a moment where it becomes difficult too early on, I run because I think that's just the bellwether for problems down the road. I think a lot of copywriters will come in with their demands and this is what I want. And I want 3% of gross and I want this big fee and blah, blah, blah. And that is an immediate turn off to me. So I think it's like those that deliver value first and then, you know, maybe get paid later, but I think just ease of use. There are people that are just easy to work with that make me smile that it's just easy, you know, like I'm raising a five year old boy. That's hard. They have demands, they're hard to work with sometimes. So I'm full up on difficult people. So if you're easy to work with, if you're kind, if you're generous, I care less about who you've written for. I care less about your credentials. So that's probably the, I guess, one way to think about it.

Yeah, I think that's a great answer. And it's simple, but it makes sense. I may feel the same way if somebody's like a, like a diva. Someone put Sam Novak said, you know, diva, free zone. But like, you know, agree with that. This is very rarely worth it. Like they talk about like in a sales organization, it's like, oh, your best, you know, sales guy, like our girl. Like you're gonna want to give them like more leeway. And I think that's true to within reason. But even there you're like, you hear about all the time somebody who's like a really big asset to a company, but they become like the headache of having to like cater to them. Like it becomes, it outweighs like the benefit they're bringing to the organization. And you're like, all right, like I just, you know, you cut them free. So. Yeah, Ed, I know. Or go ahead, Scott. Sorry.

I mean, yeah, you never want to be key man dependent, right? Like, or key woman dependent, but you never Want to have a single point of failure or a single person in your company hold the reins to the success or failure of your company. So eliminating key man dependency in the management team, from a copy perspective is really important. So you're right. The divas, you know, in copy, I could think of a couple, but I won't name them. I just. Man, life's too short, dude. Like, I just want to, you know, make money, work with great people, and go home and play with my kids. I don't. Yeah, whatever. Sam said Diva free zone is a. Is a big one for me, so.

Makes sense. Ed, I know you said you had a question, so let's sneak that in there.

Awesome. So, Scott, I have a question for you. So I'm launching my own course on Facebook compliance, actually launching today. And one thing that you said that stood out to me was that these people like hockey stick, and then after six months, they go down. I've seen that quite a few times. And I want to know what are some of the common traits, mistakes that people make that like the hockey stick, they do great, but then they just totally go down afterwards? Like, how would you go.

A lot of times people think that a product is a company. So, like, you know, Paleo's secret is a product, but it's not a company. It's a product within a. You know, we had to rebrand ourselves as a health and wellness brand because so we could tackle a multitude of different topics. So a of lot. A lot of times people will have an idea that's a single product and think that's a company. And at some point, as Facebook does its ups and downs, compliance may not be an issue. I would encourage you to think about the broader picture in terms of, are you an education organization that's teaching people marketing techniques that can transform or that can transcend Facebook and go into different areas, like LinkedIn or Instagram or Pinterest or whatever. So I think that that would be one thing to think about, is think about, you know, creating an organization that allows you to move in different directions with native path. It allowed us to sell supplements, jump into keto space, still sell Paleo. We were going like, hey, we're going to attack the natural health and wellness space rather than, like, the Paleo secret. So I would encourage you to think about, like, a broader picture of, like, are you here to educate people? And could it be more than Facebook at some point? Could you be compliance with any number of topics? Does that make sense?

Totally. Yeah. And that's actually, I've Also thought about. It's just I know that right now Facebook's like a super, super hot topic. Not something that people want to know about. There's a lot of mystique around. But I know that like 612 months from now, YouTube is gonna crack down just as hard on compliance. That's my gut instinct and prediction. So, like, I'm like, right now I'm the Facebook compliance guy, but I have it in mind to be compliance across all.

Yeah, you should be like the compliance company. And we deal with compliance in, you know, I was talking to a fantastic marketer yesterday and she shocked me. But she had said that, you know, she's 70% native now. She used to be 100% Facebook, and Facebook's been so difficult to work with that she's gone, you know, completely all native. And that's going to happen over time. But yeah, rather than be pegged to a particular distribution channel like Facebook, be the compliance guy. Compliance and the compliance can come in different forms too. Like, how do you make sure insurance and I'm saying. And deal with topics like compliance in different ways.

Yeah.

So even like ftc, FDA as well.

Dude, it's. People will pay a lot of money for that stuff. A lot of money to keep you out of the hairs of the ftc.

That's true. The great thing about Facebook is, like, face. Even though I don't know all the rules of FDA and ftc, the rules of Facebook, like, when you write Facebook compliant copy, the way that I do it, it gets you pretty close to ftc, FDA compliance, actually, because you're not making. Not calling out diseases, like you can't even name the disease. Very similar, actually.

Yeah. Like, Emily, who I interviewed yesterday, was saying just the word you is problematic in Facebook. Have you heard that?

That's, that's. I mean, people say that. I don't really believe it.

That's true.

So here's the thing, right? It's one of those things where it's like, if you just want a quick fix, you don't really give a shit about, like, why it happens. Yeah, Jaz, don't get me started.

Take it easy. Hold it, hold it together.

Keep the eyebrows on the head.

They're starting to twitch a little bit.

So basically, if the reason why most people have a problem with the word you on Facebook is because as marketers, we tie either to like a big claim. It's like, oh, I'm gonna show you how to lose like X amount of pounds in certain amount of days or timeframe.

Right.

You can't see that on Facebook. Or they tie it to. Are you sick and tired of being a fat, lazy slob that no one likes?

Right.

I mean, obviously it's exaggeration, but that's. Most of the time we use the word you anchored to a benefit or a pain point, which Facebook hates. So just to make it easier, people will just say, oh, just remove the word you altogether. And then you can just avoid that. Or like, that's why people say to remove the word you like. You see the word. I use the word you all the time in my Facebook compliant copy. I just do it smart.

Why are you yelling at me right now? I don't understand.

I'm very passionate about this topic. That's why.

No, you should be the compliance guy. I mean, and you can tap. You can do clients certifications.

You can.

I mean, this is a million ways you can go with compliance, but it is a big deal, man. It really. It is the difference between you keeping your money and losing it all. I mean, I can't tell you again, I mentioned earlier about FTC or even FDA stuff. I mean, I could count on my. At least five guys I know that have given everything away to the ftc. They're like, what was your revenue last year? Oh, it's 5 million bucks. Okay, we'll take that. Yeah, that was my revenue. Was my. We'll take that. So, like, it's a big topic, dude, and you don't think about it until it's too late.

Yeah.

So this is. Yeah, part of this defense thing that I talk about, like, is having all that stuff buttoned up because it's really unsexy. People don't want to talk about it. They want to talk about, like, oh, my VSL is crushing it, bro. But, like, there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes that will make sure you can keep your money. So you should be the compliance guy, but just take it broader than Facebook. That's what I would do. I don't know.

I love that. Thank you so much, Scott. Appreciate that.

That's awesome. By the way, Ed, is your course. Is the link live? Is it like live live the compliance course?

Almost.

Okay, well, let me know. We can put in the show notes for. We put stuff on YouTube, dude, that would be amazing.

Thank you so much.

100%.

Mark Lamont says, as a business owner, what's the best way a copywriter has approached you directly for a chance to work together? There we go.

Oh, nice. We got Mark on this one. We were able to have for Some reason, Dami just got screwed. But what's up, Mark? How are you doing?

I'm good, thanks.

How are you? Good. Good, man. So in that case, I know I kind of read the question, but you're curious about from. For Scott, as far as when a copywriter has approached him, trying to work with him, like, what was sort of the best. What are some of the best approaches you've seen? Or how are they? What made them successful? Right.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm kind of just kind of starting out, trying to branch out on my own as a freelancer. So I think introverts, I think it's about. And this is like, so cliche or whatever. I mean, but I think if you can add value first before putting your hand out for cash, that's a huge one. Like, I know a lot of copywriters have written, like, email copy for us and submitted to us like, hey, I've been through AR series. Can you try this? I've written the first six for you. Would you see if it beats your control? That would definitely get people's attention, right? Like, not like, hey, I'm a copywriter. My fee is 25,000 bucks and I'll write you new stuff. And if it doesn't work, well, sorry about that. So I think it's. If you could add value first by maybe pointing some things out. Like, hey, I noticed on your landing page, you guys aren't doing an offer bump, and I've written an offer bump for you based on what you're. You know, that kind of stuff, like, is would really get people's attention when you can add value like that. Because I think it creates that dynamic. Like, I gave you something, it's an ethical bribe, right? Like, I gave you something, now I expect something in return. So that would be a big one, I think. And it's a risk on your side because it's your time and effort. But if you're just getting started and you want to make a splash, add value first before taking a paycheck.

I love hearing that because that's something I preached as well. And even that little, like the grow CNBC article thing I got that got published today, that was like, a lot of what I was advising. But so I love hearing from you because I know it does work. I mean, I did a thing on the Justin 7 talk copy group where I was like, hey, has this worked for anybody? And a lot of people were like, yeah, it's worked. It's not gonna work every time, right? You get like, you're busy. So you get, you know, people sending you emails to do for free. It doesn't mean you're necessarily gonna have like the bandwidth to like take them and use them right away, especially if they don't follow up. Mark, I'm ask a follow up question for you to Scott on following up. When somebody follows up with you, Scott, and says, hey, like, you know, I sent you guys these emails, have you had a chance to look, do you ever get like annoyed that they're following up or are you like, oh, like kind of like. Or is there a right way and a wrong way to follow up? Let me phrase it that way.

Well, I'm less annoyed if they've put their best foot forward and taken their time out of their day to create something of value, a potential value to me and depending on, you know, the organization, how quickly can I get it implemented? I remember Stefan, at your event in Vegas, I was just, I sat there mesmerized at the V shred guys talking about how they could take copy and the next day they were getting traffic on it and in two days they had a control. I was just like, like, mind blown. Like, the speed at which, with which they could implement that stuff was just astounding to me. But no, I'm never annoyed. I mean, there's a lot of annoyances out there. And again, it's, are you an easy person to work with? Do you have realistic expectations? Like, if you email me five times a day, like, where's the copy live fourth or fifth time, I'm gonna probably get pretty annoyed with you. And then you put you in that bucket of like difficult person to work with, even though that may not be the intention at all. But I mean, I think you just have to approach it delicately and realize that your copy may not get into the queue for some period of time because there's a gajillion things going on. So I don't know, are you easy to work with? Are you cool? That goes pretty far in my book.

Cool. Mark, is that helpful?

Yeah, that's awesome. Yes to all of the above. But yeah. So I guess one thing is, is it best to go directly to yourself, like as the top of the company.

Or would it be better to try.

And look for somebody at a lower level who would be more likely to kind of take action? Or how do you, what are your thoughts on that? I think it's better to go down than up, you know, like if you're the business owner, you can kind of get things pushed through depending on if you really like someone you can kind of like move everything out of the way to kind of slot them in. It's always. It's always better to go top down than bottom up. But then, you know, might be more difficult to go top down if, you know, so I don't know. It's hard to say exactly.

I would push for top. I would push from top down, though. I mean, when possible. Because to your point, like, you know, it's like how many times anyone who's ever been in sales, ever, it's like you get rejected, quote unquote, but then you get that you're the right person and then like, immediately gets pushed through. You know what I mean?

Totally, totally.

So it's better to go higher. I supped people of mine. I had a. We had this recently in the, you know, supplement coming that I'm like, partnered in and like, where we were looking at like another like, kind of like processing CRM solution type thing. And, you know, I was like, hey, somebody hit me up. And they're like, oh, yeah, Like, I know the owner of, like, this company, like, my friend, like, stayed at his, like, chateau in the Swiss Alps or blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, like. Because of course, some European. All these European, like, processing people just have chateaus in the Swiss Alps, apparently. But, like, it was like, oh, I can direct you. Direct. Like, I can connect you directly to the owner. And then I shared that with, like, the person and this company, and they're like, well, no, I'm already talking to like, a rep, so it's fine. And I'm like, dude, no, like, the rep is like, here. Like, the owner is here. Like, you go straight to the owner. The owner can move mounds for you. The reps, like, let me put up the chain of command and hope that, like, you know, it all works out. So, you know, but. But I see I've seen this a lot of times actually, where people. Maybe it's because of. It's like a fear, intimidation. Like, talking with the owner seems scary or whatever, but it's like when you can talk to the owner of a company, like, I'd say pretty much always talk to the owner of the company, you know?

Right.

And I think the other point there is also, like, talk their language. Like, what gets my attention is if I can attach a dollar amount to the idea. Like, you know, at Native Path, we were selling anywhere between 1,000 to 1,500 bottles a day of collagen. And so it's a question of, like, what problems do you want to tackle. And so I had a manufacturer say, look, I could probably shave off $3 a jar of collagen and I could also decrease your shipping costs and the fulfillment cost would go down. And so you can quickly do the math and say, well, God, if I can save four bucks a jar of collagen, I'm selling 1500 units a day. That's $6,000 a day. That's 1800 or $180,000 a month. That gets people's attention. Yeah, like, so if you can, if you can describe the impact of your solution in a dollar amount or a cost savings, I think that's what would get my attention is those little wins where it's like, if I can increase your, whatever your take rate on upsell one by 10%, I'm going to surmise that you're doing this volume. It would need an additional, you know, whatever, 100 grand a month for you. That kind of stuff gets people's attention. So talk, talk in language that is likely to get their attention. Yeah, a basic one, I suppose.

No, I love that. No, it's not that basic. People are putting the chat. But I say do the math. Like, I talk about in the context of when you're closing a client or talking about like, like when I charge $50,000, my whole thing is like, okay, well, like, yeah, like, I'm 50,000. There's writers who are way cheaper than me. Like, why would you pay me $50,000? It's like, alright, well, first of all, you know, what are you kind of hoping that this new offer is gonna gross? And you know, is it fair to say you want to gross at least a million dollars? Right. And they're like, yeah, I mean, at least a million. Like, all right, cool. Is it fair to say that, like, your, you know, your profit margin on that's gonna be around like 20%? And it's almost always like, yeah, or usually it's like, no, it's gonna be higher. And you're like, all right, cool. Let's say 20%. So if you gross a million dollars at a 20% profit margin, that's $200,000. You paid me $50,000. That's a 4x ROI on your investment. That's pretty good. And then you're like, but realistically, do you really want to do a million or $10 million? Well, I think you could do $10 million. Like, all right, cool. Yeah, it makes sense. 20% margin, that's $2 million. You're paying me $50,000 for the chance at a 40x ROI. If you go to, like, if you could put a dollar into the stock market and get $40 back, you would mortgage your house and everything to put all your money into stock market. If it was a sure thing. It's like, I'm not like, is it guaranteed that I'm gonna give you the home run offer? Like, no. But if you look at my track record, my experience, when you hire me, you have a way higher probability than when you hire somebody else who doesn't kind of know what they're doing. So I've taught that to others and I think it's really valuable because it really helps with that pitch. But the thing is, you can still do that with a lower level client, too. You charge, you know, like $5,000 or even $500, and the guy's trying to. Or woman's trying to gross, like $10,000. It's like, you know, just doing that math and kind of what you just said, Scott. Like, I mean, it's cool hearing from the business owner's perspective, but it makes sense, right? Because then you're not thinking about, like, me, the freelancer, as a, like a liability or as like, you know, sort of an expense. You're looking at me as like an investment or like an opportunity. An investment opportunity that can yield you an roi. It's a total reframe. But a lot of freelancers still will look at themselves as this expense. And then they come from like, like, oh, God, I hope you give me money. And it's like, you know, the guy who's like, on a date and like, oh, I hope she'll kiss me. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, you got to kind of. Yeah. I don't know.

So, yeah. I mean, I admittedly, Stefan, I had this very love hate relationship with copywriters. Are there copywriters that are willing to invest, like, let's say it's 50 grand. Are there ones that are willing to, like, invest, like, say, put that 50 grand in escrow and say, like, if it hits, you get it. If it doesn't hit, you get zero.

I've done that before with mixed results, to be fair, but I think that's a cool idea. I mean, you have to trust the client, obviously, but what I'll do, I mean, so I just, you know, Ed Scow and Mike Gary just hired me to do two things, and I was like, I'm not going to do any more copy projects, but I've never worked with them before. I think it'll Be fun. And like, they were super, you know, easygoing. And I didn't. They didn't ask me to do this, but I told them. I'm like, look, guys, like, yeah, by the way, like, I'm gonna. If it doesn't hit the metrics, there's two controls they have. And I was like, if it doesn't beat your controls, like, I'm like, you have my word, I'll put in writing right here. Like, I'll work with you guys to optimize the copy until at least beats your controls. Because, like, I don't think the controls are that great. And I think. But I'm like, I'm like, you. You know, I put it in like the invoice and like, I'm like, I'll put in a contract, whatever you want.

It's a no brainer, right? You would do that all day long. That's the thing is if you eliminate the risk for the business owner somehow or make it like this, no lose proposition where it's. Yeah, that would get people's attention. We're always worried about, like, you know, you spend 25,000 bucks with somebody and like, you just can't beat the control. They're like, sorry, bro. Like, we tried. And you're like, okay, next. Like, it's. Yeah, I don't know. That's good school.

Yeah. Awesome, man. Cool. So, Mark, hopefully that helped. And Ed, let's go ahead and go through some more questions here.

Let's do it, baby. So we got Mr. Mark. Oh, there's two of them. We got Mr. Marcus Ortiz asking about things to look at. A business idea, if it has good potential to scale.

Cool. What's up, Marcus? How you doing? You there, buddy? Oh, I see him. Double. Double. Marcus, there you are.

Can you hear me? There we go. Getting better.

Try again. Marcus, go and talk. All right, Marcus, we love you, but unfortunately, I'm blind now. Unfortunately, we've got connectivity issues. Marcus.

Yes, I'm.

Here.

We go.

Okay.

Yes. Just my question was.

It's okay now. Marcus, I'm sorry, buddy. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Can you. I'm gonna mute. Marcus. I'm sorry, Marcus, but it's kind of out. So that question.

So what are the things you look for in a business idea, offer, etc to see if it has potential to scale big and make big money.

I just pick big markets. Like, you know, like when we jumped into the health and wellness space, we knew that a large majority of Americans were fat and overweight and obese and spent a ton of money to buy products like this. So I definitely want to take a big market first that I know people are willing to spend a lot of money in as kind of like a first, you know, first one to think about. I think about like, if you can build in unfair advantages or you have some advantage that over a market that maybe some don't have. But yeah, I would just pick a big market for us health and wellness. And it was also personal as well. I mean, Chris was really a big believer in paleo and keto. So during the times when things weren't working, it kept him kind of motivated to kind of or a bigger problem to solve. We want to help 100,000 or 500,000 women, you know, regain their sense of pride, you know, whatever it is. But I pick big markets first and then just figure out like, can I build? Can I pick a very small segment of that big market and make a business out of it? So I would encourage you to think in terms of like, where's the money flowing? Where are people readily and willing to spend money on certain products or ideas or topics?

Yeah, I think that's a great answer and hopefully, Marcus, that helped you too. You're in a place of bad reception, but glad we were able to answer it.

Beautiful.

Next up we have Molly Levitt and she wants to know about upcoming trends, the next five years of Internet marketing.

Hey, Molly. Hey, how's it going? Thanks for taking my question and I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. So thank you so much for all this information. It's really super. I am brand new and I just wanted to check in and see if you had any thoughts about trends.

Man, not so much trends, but I mean, I am, I am super bullish on however you want to define it. E commerce, Internet marketing, you know, however you want to define the space that we're in. I am so bullish because what I know to be true is that there are just no n number of new places to promote your product, whether it's TikTok, whether it's, you know, Emily yesterday said she was crushing it on native networks. But what I know to be true is there are going to be continually new places to market your product, which is super cool and just the rate at which the tools available to us as marketers just seem to get seemingly get better and better and better and better. Like, I mean, I'm enamored with, you know, sms cart abandons. I'm enamored with the idea of sending physical mail out to people. I mean, so we do live in A world, a marketing world where we are just like new marketing ways to reach customers is happening all the time. Different ways to engage them, whether it's over email, whether it's direct mail, whether it's physical location. So I don't know that there's trends so much, but we have a very quickly growing, exciting, dynamic space to work within and it just opens up huge opportunities for people that can see that stuff and leverage it. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, health and wellness is always a big trend. You know, financial crisis, I'm sure the preppers are going. Preppers are going crazy right now with, with what's happening with pandemic stuff. So I think if you're open and like listening like to the what's happening in the world, you can, you can do particularly well if you keep both ears open. So welcome to the space, Molly. Like, it's really great to have you and it's a, it's. You'll find really cool people here that are doing really interesting things and. Yeah, so.

Oh yeah, for sure. I joined this really great mastermind. So I'm really excited.

What's it called?

Excited about that. But yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate your thoughts on it. Awesome. Been great. Thanks. Thanks Molly, real quickly. Well, I want to get to more questions, but I'd just say it was interesting. I was talking with my wife Laura and her cousin who's a doctor. Like he's a, like an ER doctor.

Remember him at the wedding?

Yeah, yeah. You met him? Yeah, he co fished Paul. So he's out here in Vegas. Cause they're getting, they're getting married on October 1st and Sedona, they're doing, they're originally gonna do a whole elaborate wedding. Now they're kind of eloping. But he had his bachelor party. His wife comes in or his fiance comes in today. And so we've seen him a lot. But they're talking about TikTok. Cause he's made a couple of videos on TikTok that have just gone like, you know, a million and a half views, 2 million views. And it's like him just like not knowing what he's doing and like one thing there. And I don't have TikTok at all currently, but like on my phone. But it was like Laura and him were both talking about how it's like the same way when you look at like Instagram and you're like, oh, I wish I'd gone on Instagram five years earlier or like YouTube or whatever it is. It's like, they're like, that's happening right now on TikTok. So, like, why would you not at least explore and play with TikTok and then TikTok's not, you know, that will get supplanted by something else. But it's like, totally. I get, like, as I get older, I mean, I'm really just getting active on Instagram in the last, like, month or two because I have an executive assistant who's like, posting stuff for me, you know, I mean, we talk about what she's gonna post and. But like. But I'm like, you know, I'm so stupid. I was so Rick. Resistant to Instagram like a long time because I'm like, I'm gonna become Komudgeony in my old age, you know? And it's like, I don't know why. Gotta stop doing that.

No, it's. I think it's. You know what it is, dude? Like, a deep fear of mine is not being relevant in the space.

Yeah.

Because the rate at which this stuff happened, you know, like, well, back in 2001, like, nobody cares. Nobody cares about 2001, bro. Like, well, I created this company. Nobody cares.

Nobody cares.

So, like, do you remember NetBlue? No, no, nobody does. And so I think part of what keeps me active in this space is really just I'm fear driven that I don't want to be left behind because I feel like it's easy to. The older you get, you know, you have a different interest. I'm gonna go gardening or chickens or whatever I want to do. It's easier to kind of lose focus because the rate at which this stuff is happening is so quick that I always want to keep up to date with, like, you know, what's the latest way to market to somebody, or the latest channel, like you said, TikTok, or the latest service. So I'm desperate to stay ahead of the curve or at least stay with the curve. I don't want to be like one of those guys. It's like, you know, like, guys remember MySpace. Like, yeah, like, nobody cares, dude. So that's a good motivator to stay relevant in the space and just like, continually be involved.

So.

Yeah, Yep.

Totally agree, totally agree. But I think that's a good, healthy motivator, really, in a way, it's a healthy fear.

Yeah, for sure.

Valuable. Cool. Ed, let's do some more questions. I wanna get to as many as we can. So who we got next?

Next we got. Luffy wants to know top three tips for somebody who Wants to start a business.

Their own offer or business. Oh, sorry. Yeah, you're laying. Luffy, ask like I asked you to do. Luffy. What's up, buddy? Hey.

Hi, Stefan. Hi, Ed. Hi, Scott. Yeah, so I guess that's just the question. Like that isn't really like a genesis of the question. Just wondering, like, based on your experience.

Like, what are the top three advice.

Or tips that you have for someone who's looking at becoming an offer owner.

Or starting their own business?

Well, I think first off, like, think of a space that you want to be in long term. Like, so something that you generally get pleasure out of being in. So if it's like for us it was the health and wellness space, it just felt good to know that we were actually changing people's diet and making them healthier. That would be the first thing. Don't run into a space where it's like, oh, I'm going to arbitrage, I don't know, porn sites or something. And it sounds good, but you ultimately don't want to tell your friends about it. But, you know, so pick a space that you can see yourself being in for 10 years. Next, you know, learn how the game is played. Like, learn if you see an ad, click through that ad and try to figure out reverse engineer. Like, what is it? What is their mousetrap to create cash flow? And then number three is just be willing to kind of copy what works. There's very little original ideas in this space. So pick a space you love, reverse engineer who you want to be like. And you can see that. And then the third one would be copy them and be willing to kind of like continually iterate and make changes until you get there. It's, you know, for some people it seems like an overnight success. That's pretty rare. But normally, you know, you're going to stick at it for a long time to. To finally like, eke out some semblance of success. So be willing to kind of like stay for the long run. Because more often I think a lot of how this stuff is taught, like business building, like, hey, run your own business. It's easy. Come do it in three months. No, it's like never how it works. It's just like long hours of like thankless, hopeless work that when applied over time, create something beautiful. So I don't know if that helps, but. But I hope it does.

Okay, good. Maybe just a follow up question.

So how do you get clarity on.

What you actually enjoy in the next 10 years?

Cause that's a really long Time for.

You to commit to something.

I don't know what genuinely brings you joy. I mean, it could be a hobby that you have. It could be websites that you go to. It could be any number of things. I guess that's really a personal question for you. You know, like. Like I said, for me, the bug that I had in me was like, why do people buy stuff? And so that is the itch that I kind of, like, continually want to scratch. And so. And then, you know, we got further applied to the health and wellness space. Like, Chris and I were new in the health and wellness space six years ago. Prior to that, we were, like, doing Legion and CPA deals for Columbia House, Netflix, and these kind of guys. But, yeah, it's personal question, man. Like, what do you love to do? And can you leverage that into a business? Hopefully you can. Okay, got it.

Thanks. Awesome. Thank you, Luffy, for that question, my friend. Thanks. Yeah, Ed, let's keep it rolling. Who we got next?

Dude, I'm ready to go. Manuela says, Stefan, you mentioned your emails to some copywriters. Hold on, let me summarize it. It's hard to summarize because it's quite long.

I know.

Oh, my God.

You can just be like, guys, a question about copywriting versus content writing or whatever.

Copywriting versus content writing. There we go.

Is that the one I saw where I think was the man she. There's that one where she said that. She said, I won't be able to kind of expand because they're terrible weather. So I think. I don't think she's gonna be able to actually. In that case, you can actually read it, Ed.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Stephanie, you mentioned your email that some copywriters mixed up the content concept of content writing and copywriting. Is it totally impossible to mix both ideas together to produce better results? Another question. There must be a place for worker bees in every industry. Oh, my gosh. People keep liking this. Oh, my God. Moving up and down. So how are entrepreneurs this day affecting the place of such people in the industry? Negatively.

Positively cool. So, yeah, I'll tackle those. So I actually said creative writing versus copywriting. And there is a difference between content writing and copywriting, too. But I meant more like you can tell people who are good at creative writing who are like, oh, wow, I can get paid to write and be a copywriter, which I was kind of that way. But you're still following a very set structure as a copywriter. When you write, like, your headlines and your. You know, if it's like a long form copy, you writing your lead and the different pieces or even an ad. So it's like you still have to, like, answer the question right away of, like, what's in it for the prospect or the viewer? Like, why are they. Why should they give you their attention? My attention is a currency. It's like Tai Lopez say that. If he does, then I just quoted Tai Lopez, which, you know, I think Tai Lopez is actually a pretty smart marketer, so I'm fine with that. But I mean, it was Dan Locke who said that. I don't know. But either way, attention is a currency, right? And if somebody. They have very, like a limited amount, a finite amount, and they choose, they're very picky about where they're going to spend it. So you need to. You still have to capture their attention. What's in it for them? What are the promises relating, building rapport, which you're doing through sort of calling out their pain points and, you know, kind of showing empathy towards those, and then like, really creating curiosity and intrigue around the fact that you're going to help them to solve their problem in a unique way that nobody else has ever helped them before. And that's gonna be different. And so, you know, that's kind of copywriting 101, so to speak. But then at the same time with the creative writer, like, so you can do have a story, right? About, like a dramatic moment in somebody's life. That was a turning point.

So cool.

But the problem I see creative writers come in and they sort of just like, you know, it's like the cigarette burned to the dying ember as they paced across the room. Damn it. She was late again. It's like, you know, it's like the start of some, like, weird, like, noir novel. And you're like, that's not necessarily, like, that's not copy. Like, you're just doing a creative. Someone just paid you to write creative writing. And, like, it's cool, but I'm gonna convert that.

Good.

I just swallowed.

But what happened to that person after the cigarette went out? Now I'm curious. Yeah.

So, shit, maybe I'm wrong. I don't make a hairball. Okay, I'm back. But yeah, and then so with content writing specifically, I might be dying. So let's see, you know, like, yeah, even in content, like a blog or article, content like that. Yeah. I'd still have a good headline, have punchy subheaders, write in an engaging, entertaining way. So I think that stuff can still, like, apply to you. Know, copying content can totally. Content ranking can go hand in hand, but more so creative writing was the point. And then I'm gonna take another sip of this Waterloo so I can last the, you know, final 15 minutes or whatever. But what's the part two of that question? Ed.

There'S. There's busy bees in every industry. How does that affect us as entrepreneurs? I'm not really sure what that means, actually.

I mean, well, one thing I talked about how I did like a YouTube video kind of about that. How I have a friend who's, whose dad had like once told him, like, oh, the world needs worker bees too. And the connotation being that, you know, it's like not everyone's going to be like a rocket scientist, surgeon, entrepreneur, whatever. And like that if everybody was, then the economy would break down and stuff. And I made a video about how there's lots of rich people who are also worker bees. Like, someone who just goes in this really traditional path and never tries to like kind of do anything outside themselves. They sort of do everything they think they're supposed to do and they get to like a mid level or high level position as like, you know, in like a company. But they're like, you know, so worried about where their kids are gonna go to college and do they go to the right school and they're just, so. They're just sort of a cog in the machine too. And how like, you know, I think my goal in life is to not be a cog in the machine, to be outside the machine as much as I can, you know, kind of like having that freedom, you know, with what we do. You know, I think a lot of what I do as when I teach and mentor and whether it's free content, like shows like this, masterminds, courses, all these things is like how to like, you know, get out of the machine. Right. That's a huge part of what I'm trying to help people to do. And so I want to help as many people as possible to do that. If everybody does that, like, you know, does that mean, does everything break down? Sure. But am I going to ever reach everybody? No, there's always going to be a lot of people who have, you know, the mindset issues and challenges. And there are some people, it's like being machine. If you just like, like being the machine, that's fine too. So my goal as an entrepreneur is to help you out the machine as much as possible. But I know it's not realistic to think that everybody is going to ever exit the machine.

Yeah. And I think also it's fair to say that machine is great for some people. Like, world needs. I mean, you can still be. Have an amazing, exciting life and be part of a machine that would take you out of a normal desk job that sits in an office all day long. So everybody's not meant to be an entrepreneur because there are just a million plates that you have to spin at any one time, hoping that this plate doesn't fall down. So that being said, there is a place for people that don't want to be necessarily the guy responsible or gal responsible for holding up all the plates, but can be in the machine and helping holding up the plates still have a fantastic and amazing run in this space.

100%. That's a great point, Scott. Yeah, for me. And I should clarify it because, like, for me, it's like the people who, like, know that they're in the machine and don't want to be in the machine, but don't know how to get out of it. That's. That's for me, like, I get motivation and I get fulfillment from. From that aspect. But again, I'm not evangelical of like, going around yelling at everybody like, you're in the machine. Get on the machine. It's like, you know, like, loss of. I have plenty of friends who, you know, to your point, are pretty happy in life and they're like part of the machine and they, you know, make like, get enough money and it's like, that's great. I'm not trying to take them and be like, why don't you go become a freelancer or an entrepreneur? It's like, no, they should totally not do that. It would fuck up their life.

You know, who's the guy in the Matrix with the yellow, the green pill or the blue pill?

Yeah, Morpheus or whatever.

You're like the Morpheus. Yeah. Yeah, but take a pill. Yeah.

100%. That's awesome. So, Scott, or Scott, maybe that's a.

New supplement line, the Machine Pill.

Yeah, it takes you out. It'll just be a little ayahuasca and like a capsule and be like, hey, you want to leave the machine? Just. There you go. No. Okay.

That's. That's so smart. Actually, side note, make a note. Well, you. For the vsl, we'll use like the entire Morpheus of red pill, blue pill, and then this is the red pill.

Yeah.

It's like microdosing.

Make a little note.

Yeah. So, Stefan Speedrun.

Yeah. Let's do it.

Let's do it. All right. Jazz asks, what else don't business owners see because they're too focused on offense?

You know, virtually all the defense. So think about things like customer service. How long does it take to get back to customers? Think about refund rates, chargebacks, think about distribution of mids, think about insurance. Think about forecasting, putting your numbers. I mean, there's just a gajillion things that happen behind the scenes that I think every business owner should pay particular attention to in terms of the defensive realm. So those are a few. I mean, I rail. I mean, I go for, you know, vendor relationships, customer service. Customer service is a big one. It's really boring. But that will definitely either kick you out of business or keep you in business pretty quickly.

Yeah, those are great. Let's keep the speed run.

Let's do it. How to best manage multiple copywriting projects. Just focus on one at a time until done, then move to the next or work on one for a while. Take breaks to work on other projects.

So, yeah, I personally am very much one at a time. I think, like, you know, putting all my focus and attention into one and scheduling it out so that I have enough time to do that. So even if I get multiple projects, one of the reasons that I give people an eight week turnaround time is not because it's gonna take me eight weeks. Like, it takes me like a couple of days to write a sales letter, but it's that way I can have other things going on and have even other copy projects and yet still get them all done within the deadline. But I manage that out. So I just finished a total, like kind of new letter for the guys at GPLans. I sent it to them yesterday morning, I guess, and I love it. I think it's really good and I think it'll crush. And now I know what I'm doing next. And then after that I have the stuff for. I have two other projects after that basically. And Mike just hired me where they've got eight weeks there. So I'm like, I'm already planning that out. I'm like, in a couple weeks from now is when realistically I'm actually going to start. So I'll ask them questions and I'll have. I may have thoughts about it as I'm out doing a walk or something and I'll make notes, but where they truly will work in earnest a little bit later. And it's hard. It's kind of annoying telling. I don't usually tell clients that, you know, but I'm in a lucky enough position Where I think I can do that. And clients are like, they don't care because they just want the results. So it's like, if the copy's good, you know, it is what it is. But for me, I really. I would go crazy because I think you need enough time to really get into, like, it's a labor of love, even for me. Like, this. Every letter, it's like sort of this. You know, you come into it and then you. You Maybe you have resistance at the beginning. Then you find ideas you're really excited about. Like, I found so many cool hooks for this G plans 1. I want to give them away in here. But if you're an RNBC applied, we'll eventually break it down. Little plug for that. But, like, yeah, I mean, it's just. It's so fun. But then you're like, oh, crap, you have to start writing it. And you're like, oh, like, man, like, is this transitioning? Is it boring? Is there too much science? So then, like, you know, you kind of go through these ups and downs and it's just a mo. But then when you finish, like, that cathartic, like, release of feeling so good, of having finished it, it's just, like, you know, priceless. And so, you know, that's a whole, like, intimate, like, love affair with every one of those letters. And I can't have multiple love affairs, you know, metaphorically, of course. You know, obviously they don't have love affairs in your life, but can't metaphorically have multiple love affairs at once. That would burn the shit out of me. Right? I would. I couldn't do it. So for me. Yeah, one at a time. It's a long way of saying one at a time.

Love it. Marcus Ortiz asks tips on avoiding FTC problems and how to handle it if it happens.

That's a pretty loaded one.

Yeah. I mean, there's a million. Yeah, I mean, it's. There's. There's this guy that does compliance for FTC named Ed Ray. You should go check him out. But I mean, there's, you know, there's. There's written stuff about how to stay out of the crosshairs. There's a lot of material out there, how to stay out of the crosshairs. There's great attorneys like the Venable Group and DC that will keep you out of the crosshairs if you're. If you are on the FTC list. Just run, dude. Like, it's done. Like, you're. Yeah. It's not a question of win or lose. I Think once you're on that radar, you're going to lose. That's been my experience. There's been very few cases where somebody actually wins. So you just want to, at all costs, stay out of their crosshairs. And, you know, I tell you, one of the biggest tips I learned, and I learned this from an FTC lawyer sitting in their offices in San Francisco. I was being interviewed not for anything I had done, but they were asking me to cooperate with their investigation. But near the end of the conversation, I said to the guy, look, I'm in the lead gen business. How do you guys do Legion? How does the FTC do lead gen? And their answer was remarkably simple. They say, we look at the Better Business Bureau. And it was such a simple answer. If you're on the Better Business Bureau and you have a really bad reputation, that is the first indication to us that we should look at you. So simple tip. Stay in the good graces of the Better Business Bureau at all costs. Because if you don't, that's, I think, where the FTC starts to look.

Yeah. It's also funny because I've heard people. The Better Business Bureau kind of is like a racket, right? You have to pay the money.

Totally.

And so I've had people who, like, complain about it. It's like, sure, I'm like, but if that means that I'm not gonna lose all my money for, like, you know, some reason, like, it's like, I guess, you know, the extortion is worth, you know, pain.

Right.

And then. Yeah. And back to that point, I mean, like, for even the stuff I'm doing now, like, we have an ftc, FDA attorney, like, review everything and, like. And we also write intentionally. I try to, as I'm writing or someone else is writing to kind of make it clear that we don't want to make claims that are gonna be, like, super outlandish and get us into trouble. But at the end of the day, it's like, if you get really big and you. It's tough. But even just having an attorney. Back to why, Ed, the advice that Scott gave to you is so valuable. Having an attorney or an expert look through it and change stuff, it's just because I've been on the other side where I'm like, I don't know if what I'm saying is okay or not. And the way I sleep now versus when I slept back then, I sleep dramatically better today knowing that I've got.

Peace of mind covering my ass.

Right. Cool. Let's pop through A couple more here on our speed round.

By the way, side note, my team just got the link set up for the compliance course. Christian Distance. Do you think finding and working with a business partner is a better strategy for success? Assuming you find the perfect synergy?

For me, it is. I think we're social creatures and, you know, you can't be great at everything. So finding a business partner that not so much that you get along with necessarily, but that thinks differently and values different topics is really important. The tendency for us is to work with people that are just like us, and that's a problem. I would find people that round out your skill set because you're just not going to be great at everything. And whether it's somebody who's obsessive about customer service or whatever the topic is. But look, for people that round you out. But for me, I've been a partner person for basically my entire career. I think it just. It's a better way to go, in my opinion.

Yeah.

I'm going to walk, by the way, and plug my. So you'll get to see my house. But keep talking.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that. I was saying. I mean, I agree, but it is really key. The key is the right partner. I mean, that's so crucial. It's like, you know, it's like getting married. Right. So it's like you really want, like, you want to date, you want to, like, have the conversations. You want to also have, like, legal stuff to plan for the divorce. As much as it sucks because you're like, no, we're going to moon. We're best friends. High five, you know? And then like, you really want to plan for the divorce, too.

I think it's important. Yeah.

And as we see Scott walking through, he froze for a minute. I'm sure he'll come back. There he is.

Are you back, Scott?

Yep, I'm here.

Perfect.

Okay.

Patrick Chan asks, I've heard that hard work can get to six figure earnings, but hitting seven figure is building a system, like an offer. When did you feel that it was time to make your own offer? Good question.

Were you. I mean. Well, I'm not sure it's for me or Scott. I'll go first. I mean, for me, I just felt capped, and I always wanted more. So even though I was writing for the guys in Romania and they were having a ton of success, it wasn't that I saw them doing like 100 million in a year or whatever, it wasn't necessarily like, oh, I want all that money, because I knew I understood business enough to know that that wasn't profit, it was revenue, but it was more so that I wanted to be a part of something bigger or do something bigger. And I felt like with them it was, I was a super highly compensated employee and I just was not. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to have like more freedom. And I'd been a freelancer before, so like, I knew, okay, well, here I am as a freelancer making anywhere from 50 to like $80,000 a month. It's gonna be really hard for me to like make more than that as a freelancer, especially at that time in my life. And so, and I, for me personally, I'd always been drawn to entrepreneurship. I mean, I been involved in other businesses and you're not at a high level, but for me I just felt like I had some money because I had been making money with these guys. I had some money so I could take the risk a little bit more. It wasn't like if I moved over to an offer owner, I was going to be completely. I had to make it all work in a month. And thank God, because it took over a year to figure it out. And I almost lost most of the. I did lose most of the money I had, but then, you know, found success. But that was, that was it for me. I mean, and then I guess, you know, Scott, if you have anything to add or not, you kind of been an entrepreneur for a long time. I'm not sure, you know. Oh, Oh, say, hey, Remy. What's up, buddy?

Hi.

So cute.

Yeah. Being the pandemic dad, the stay at home dad. Tell them that. You're so cute. Stefan's so cute.

Thank you. Thank you, Remy.

Yeah, no, it's hard. I think that you're either born an entrepreneur or you're not. I think some people relish in the risk of losing it all and not working out. Some people are just. Are born to be in the machine and that's a great place to also be as well because we all need that and different risk profile. My younger brother works, is an investment banker for a big Swiss bank and he finds safety and knowing that he's been in one field as an employee for 20 years and done quite well. To me that's a death sentence.

To.

Run the risk of having the success or failure based on somebody else. So, yeah, I think it's just different risk profiles. And I think the good news is that you can do it in our society where if you fail, there's, I mean, the recourse is not that bad. You're probably still getting Starbucks and sleeping in organic sheets and so I just encourage people to keep trying and fail over and over again and see if that life is for you. Some people it's not and that's okay too. It's not bad. But yeah. So I don't know.

No, that's awesome, Ed. I know. I try to be respectful of both your time. So Ed, if you need to run, you can. Scott, are you down to like 5ish more minutes of just.

Yeah, as long as you don't mind Remy. Remy popping in once in a while.

Yeah, I don't mind. I'll usually Eden makes a can. She's. She's out right now at a park but. And if you want to. You know I don't want. I know you got your compliance kind of course launching so I don't want to hold you hostage. If you want to. If you want to take off or you can hang out for five minutes.

I can hang out for a few more minutes.

Okay, cool. Let's go through and find. I was trying to find ones of people who we haven't because I know Marcus has another one and we just answered one from Jason I think. Right.

Do you mind if I put the.

Link in the chat?

Yeah, no, please pop it in there.

By the way, it's a Google Doc. I'm doing it different.

Look at you. Excited to check it out though. Yeah, I'm going to buy the course myself for sure. Oh, I didn't answer your question, Jason. Okay, no problem. So that's the. Thanks for correcting me. Do you want to. I'll let you keep reading them out I guess go to Jason's next if that's cool. Or I can do it while you put your link in the chat.

There we go. Okay. From Jason. Jason asks for a new supplement launch. What are your thoughts on running a small test with cold traffic? Using a made up doctor to validate the offer and funnel first and then swapping out with a real legit doctor to scale once we know what's converting and generating a profitable roas. I'm bootstrapping this biz and want to be smart about spending cash on a doctor up front. Front before anything is validated.

I'm gonna answer that first and I'll let you answer after Scott. Cause I just think my answer is like you just don't need a doctor. So like why like you can. The vast majority of supplement offers are. Can go great with an anti expert or like a non doctor. So even if you're like, you know, having us have just. I just wouldn't use a doctor and then I would test out in a doctor later when you can afford to have them. I mean, you know, to be completely candid, I think people like, you know, they do that kind of stuff and like, I'm not gonna sit here and be judgy about it and like, sure. It's like, I think honestly do. I think you're gonna go to hell if you like do a small test and you have like a made up doctor? Like, no. Especially if your intention is that you're gonna replace with a real doctor pretty fast. But I just don't feel like, I also don't really feel like you need a doctor. Like, I think doctors are super overrated for the most part in health supplement offers. But then, Scott, I'd love to get your take on that as well.

Yeah, I mean, I'm 50, 50 on that. Like I've seen that third party credibility. Like in the case of Native Path, we had Chad Walding, who is our doctor and has been the face of the company. And certainly I think we've gone pretty far with that. I've seen it done before and I've also seen it not done right. So I think both ways work. And I would say that in terms of the idea of testing something without it. Yeah, do it. It's kind of like when you give birth to offers like this, it's like hook or crook. Like you got to get something going and good enough is okay. So don't feel compelled to wait till everything is perfect and you have the right doctor and everything. Like, just get something out the door and let the market determine kind of what needs to get fixed on it or where you're at. But yeah, if you're just starting out, you literally got to do anything you possibly can to give this offer the light of day. And if it means faking a doctor for the first month, do it. Man. Launching these things aren't easy. There are a lot of work and a lot of ways you can fail. So take advantage of every opportunity you can. And if it means, you know, faking it for a bit, like, do it. I don't know.

Our FTC disclaimer. You know, these are just educational advice that is not, you know, just Right, right, right.

Or get to the point where your cart, you can't check out. I mean, yeah, but that's right. And quite frankly, I mean, unless you're doing really outrageous, crazy stuff like this cures Covid or whatever. Generally speaking at this, at that level where you're just starting out, the FTC doesn't really give a crap about you there. From what I understand, those guys are looking for the big wins. I mean, they wanted to have somebody big. And so if you're just starting out, they don't care about you, which is great for sure.

Jason said the letter is written in doctor's voice, so we would have to write the whole thing to remove the doctor. Just to be fair though, like, not really. I mean you can just be like, hey, I'm so and so and I'm an expert and I'm like a researcher and like, you know, I mean like, you could still like have like a like a researcher type spokesperson and anyone can be a researcher, right? And like, you know, unless you're like. And this whole story is like, I was at my medical practice and like I was seeing. I mean if it's really specific, I guess then that's an issue. But if it's like more so that the guy's like a doctor and I noticed stuff going on with my patients and I want to discover the real like reason why. It's like you'd be like, I'm a researcher and I notice things going on with people that I like talked with and I went to. You know, you can basically tell the same story without needing a doctor, so. Yeah, but hopefully that helps. And I think we had Isaac next, right? Ed. Muted Ed Ray.

That's me, my man. So Isaac, if you previously pitched a lead and got no response, how would you re approach and follow up once? Your positioning is better.

So for that one, and I'm guessing this is again clients type thing, I'd use humor. Like Ian and I went through that like the freelancer course. Like I looked at somebody who followed up with me like eight times and it's like the first couple I ignored and he sent one that I forget what it was, but the guy was like, had like a funny subject line and a funny email, was kind of self deprecating and like, hey, it's me again. Like, you know, like, ugh. Like I know I'm the fucking worst. But anyway, you know, it had a bunch of jokes and like it like cracked me up and then I saw personality and then I really was like, ah, you know what? I like this guy. And then I responded and then the guy basically never followed up and closed me, which was crazy. So there's a lesson how to follow up and then how to not follow up in there. But that's the short answer for that one.

Cool. Next up from Alexis. How can we do with companies who seem a bit sketchy and scammy when they're hiring copywriters? I can share any not sharing experience. There we go. There's a question.

So yeah, I saw Alex had sent me an email about this too which usually but for everyone you ask questions on here, I don't take them as an email but basically Alex or Alexis said that I get hired for an agency. They told him the process would be composed of three steps. Write an advertorial for $10. Write a short form story based sales letter for $10. In an interview. If I got past the first step, I qualified for the second and so on. I matched past all the steps. Can't imagine how happy I was when I got the news. I was even crying the next day. They told me the CMO wanted to have a chat with me but the conversation never happened. They just sent me an email a few days later that CMO wanted to do another test 6 post purchase email sequences which by the way wasn't paid and wasn't part of the hiring process. When I complete that testament got back to me. I had to chase them and spam the females. So they gave me an answer that was I didn't pass the final test. This knocked me down really hard. I even got into depression. I noticed a few edits on my tests which made me think they're going to use them for their own benefit. I mean and he's basically asking what can you do when companies don't follow their own hiring processes and don't seem transparent. I mean I think you got to use a little experience there and look at red flags. I think doing a paid test is a fair thing for them to do. I mean $10 is not especially for a sales letter. It's a little yikes. Little yucky. But I mean I don't know, this seems like some red flags there to me especially once you the follow up of doing the creatives. I think at a certain point I would be like just, just say no. I don't know, I mean it's tough. I know, I understand when you're kind of like desperate for work but I also feel like I'd just be like no, like you know, like I think I've shown you samples like me to have an interview or I'd probably move on and like look at other opportunities pretty fast. I don't know if you had anything to add to that, Scott.

No, that's about right. I think that's great.

Yeah, I just. It just honestly, like, the answer is like, don't you know? Yeah, you gotta like, you gotta move on. I do like beef jerky. Cause Jaz said $10 is a bag of beef jerky, so. All right, let's do like maybe two or three more and we'll wrap it up here.

What are the top insights you've gotten into, why people buy that you can consistently used to make hella sales?

Dude, you got Marcus in there again. I was trying to get new people.

But how's jazz?

Oh, jazz. I see. What top. Oh, I see top things you learned here. Oh, nevermind. Okay.

Hella. Marcus, are you from Northern California?

It's actually jazz. It was jazz. It was jazz who did it.

Hella is a yes. It doesn't come out very often.

It's a younger person thing. Like I say too, sometimes kids these days, man. Kids these days.

Yeah. But Scott, I'll let you answer that one. Maybe. What are some of the. Cause you love the psychology of selling. So what are some of the top insights you've gotten into? Why people buy that you consistently use to make hella sales?

Oh, hella sales. Yeah. No, I have not. I mean, you guys, this is your world, Stefan. I mean, it's storytelling. We're all hope dealers, right? We're all selling hope. My collagen will insert benefit for you. So we're all just general hope dealers selling dreams and hopes and stories and stuff like that. So I. I think if you can master the art of selling hope and dreams, then you can do hella sales. So I think it's just all storytelling at the end of the day.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Yeah.

I mean, at the end of the day, it's like they're buying sell to the bleeding next too, right? It's like, generally when do you go to buy is like when you have, like when you don't just have a pain point, but something has happened like, that has led you to feel like things cannot go on this way, and that's when you look for a solution. Like, for me, I have like seasonal allergies, but, like, I ignore them. But then, like, if like it's a really bad, like, week or something and like I'm stuffed up with like a sinus infection and watery eyes. Like, like, then I'm like buying every remedy on the planet. Like taking herbal drops, like taking supplements. Like, you know, if I go see an allergist, it's like. But, you know, then other times like, my eyes are a little watery right now, but it's not bad enough. But there's that. That moment, right? So you want to sell to me when I'm at that place where I'm so sick of it, I will pay any amount of money to solve the problem versus the place where I'm like, no, allergies are annoying. You do that. I mean, you get the right ad in front of me, maybe I'll be like, oh, I should try that. I have allergies. But it's very different. My mentality is very different versus, like, I will do anything I can to fix this problem right now. And that's the person you want to sell to as much as possible. I, like Shura has kind of cracked me up because, like, do you think the business space you are in has dirty power plays going on in the way it does in the typical American corporate world? If yes, then what are some ways to dominate in your industry and gain power? And shura is a 16 year old in India, the regular friend of the show. I love Shira, but I love Shura asking about dirty power plays and ways to dominate and gain power. So I don't know, Scott, if you have any thoughts on that one.

How to be more dirty or to be more powerful or.

Yeah, like lie more or.

Yeah, lying.

Yeah. I mean, dirty power plays is like, it's a really broad kind of concept, Shira. That's the one thing. Like, I mean, it's hard too.

I mean, I think that, you know, selling is hard. I mean, selling. Selling almost has a dirty connotation to it. Like when you're selling something, you're making claims. You're, you know, I mean, selling is a bad word in some circles where you're trying to make a sale. I remember discussing this with a younger person about selling collagen for 37 bucks and what did it cost you for? And she said, well, that's not fair. That's not fair that you could do that. I thought, should I be selling them at break even or should I endeavor to have a profit to it? Yeah, it's a tough one, man. Some people don't like to sell. And selling is a part of the game here. I mean, we ran across especially in the health and wellness space as well. I think it's particularly problematic when you have people making claims about health and wellness. I mean, you can make a lot of really crazy claims to sell stuff. And is that fair? Is that right? I'm not totally sure, but yeah, it's a tough Topic.

You know, I do feel like, you know, ultimately, we're generally the good guys. Like, are there people in our space who are doing shady things? Like, for sure, just, like, in any industry. But, you know, I just look at, like. Like, like, not to get, like, controversial, but, like, with COVID like, you know, hospitals get paid more money when somebody, like, has Covid, right? And so there's all. And again, talking to Paul, who's a doctor, an ER doctor in that hospital and in Queens, it's like, literally, like, it was a ground zero of, like, Covid in New York. But even him, he's like, oh, yeah. It's like somebody gets hit by a bus and, like, Covid, you know, and like, I'm not saying that I don't want to get him in trouble. I'm not saying that he said that about his specific hospital or anything, but, like, basically being. Having all these doctor friends and seeing how it's going, it's like they literally are like, you know, it's like somebody falls down the stairs like Covid, because they get more money. And then, like, the Trump administration just had done a thing where they're like, hey, for, like, Medicaid to get the extra reimbursements, you need to, like, you know, you have to basically show that they had a positive COVID test. And immediately the hospital, like, industry and their lobbyists were like, that is outrageous. That's ridiculous. What about, like, the false negatives and, like, the false negatives isn't really a thing, from what I understand. I've heard a lot more about false positives and false negatives. So none of this is to say that Covid doesn't exist. That's not scary. That's not awful. But the point is, like, I'm pretty sure that hospitals and medical systems are massively, basically ripping off taxpayers and getting more money and taking advantage of this pandemic. But how many of them are going to get in any trouble for that? Like, zero. Right? And then you look at the banks during 2008-2010, the financial crisis. I just think, like, it's not that all big. So you want to talk about dirty tactics and power plays. I think big business does employ those more. But I think in our space, what's our dirty tactic that we use psychology to charge more for a bottle of collagen than maybe know, someone at a store does? Like, I just think, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Not to go on a tangent.

No, I like the fact that you're calling it out, Stefan, because I'm. I'm decidedly critical of the health and wellness space. I want to call it out for what it is. We make money, but. But I, you know, when I meet a marketer, it's like, I'm just here to help people, right? No, are you? Then why do you have five upsells then? You know, I mean, like, really, do you just want to help people? I mean, so I think the health and wellness space in particular, there's a double standard. There's a fine line between, like, call it out that you're a marketer, you want to sell product, and also we can help people at the same time, like, endeavor to do both. But there is a kind of a holier than thou approach in the health and wellness space. Like, bro, I help people. I'm not sure what you do, but I save lives. Like, okay, do you. Is that why you need to charge $85 for your. That cost you 10 or 5. So anyway, whatever we can get, we can have a whole topic on that.

No, I know, but. No, it's a fair point, but let's end it here. I know there's a few questions we didn't get to, and I'm sorry if we didn't get to your question. I have another call in 11 minutes, and I want to be respectful of Scott and Ed's time. But, Scott, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's super fun.

My pleasure.

Yeah, it was awesome. We got to catch up soon, and either next year in Vegas or San Diego or I'll come see you, but hopefully soon. And Ed, Ray, thank you so much for being our amazing co host, as always. Really appreciate it. Everyone should check out Ed's compliance course, which just went live today. He put the link in the chat again. I'm actually gonna click it so I can save it. Have it open here. Yeah. And everyone who attended, asked a question, hung out, interacted in the chat, or was on Facebook Live again. I didn't have Facebook Live open because I didn't want my Internet to die, but really appreciate it. And we'll see everyone next time. So that's it. Thank you all so much.

Thank you.