[RTB:E26] “Boost Profits Solving This 1 Problem” - The Road to a Billion Podcast with Stefan Georgi

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call and radio show style podcast where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and really pretty much anything. The reason for the name the Road to a Billion is twofold. One is because my copy will have generated a billion dollars in sales by the end of the year here, which is coming up. That's both for my own products and offers and businesses and those of my clients, and because I'll make a direct impact on the lives of billion people over the next 10 years. Whether that is emotional, financial, spiritual, mental, what have you, physical, my carnivore diet, what's up and so on. We'll start taking calls in about five minutes, which is really Q and A's. All you gotta do is just put your questions on the Q and A. If you're here on the live webinar that we are doing, and then Ed Ray will go through and kind of call them out and answer them and we'll answer people's questions and we'll go from there.

Ed, do you want to go ahead.

And introduce yourself and say hello?

Hey, everyone, I'm Ed. I help people who are running on Facebook and they get banned and, you know, they get the Zuck Hammer, the band Hammer, and help them retrieve their assets and get back online without really having to get worried about getting cucked by Zuck again.

Tight. You know, it's like, cuck me once, shame on you. Cuck me twice, shame on me is what they always say.

Andy, Jeff says he's also really, really, ridiculously good looking.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Okay, cool. We'll take questions a few minutes here. I'm here. I'm just gonna answer as many as I can. No guests today because I was kind of lazy, but I got some cool guests coming up. Who do I have coming up? I have Josh. Snow will be coming up before too long from snow teeth whitening. Josh. I can't pronounce his last name. I'm gonna be able to do it before the show happens. He's coming up pretty soon. I have Steve D. Sims, who was connected to me by David Ryan, the one who always is saying that. Admiration, smile more. I did not know a lot about Steve Sims, but he's awesome. You can look him up. His name is Book again. I'm sure I mentioned it here. I'LL put his link in. His book is called Blue Fishing the Art of Making Things Happen.

Yeah, so guy's pretty tight.

If you haven't heard of him, there's a really cool Forbes article that I'll share when I'm promoting that one. But basically he is a dream maker for the ultra wealthy billionaires. So he's got testimony from Elton John and Elon Musk and stuff like that. And he's done stuff where clients want to get married by the Pope in the Vatican. He makes it happen or they die under the statue of David in the Sistine Chapel and just all kinds of stuff like that. Gosh. What else? Just pretty much like they say, going to the bottom of the ocean, taking clients to do a submarine into the Titanic to explore it.

And he's worked with everybody, pretty much.

Any famous person you can imagine. He's made stuff happen for them. So he's a super interesting person. He's got a whole philosophy on how to get people to say yes to stuff like big things and make big things happen. So super stoked on him. Thank you David for the hookup on that. It'll be really interesting. Um, Josh, like I mentioned, I've got AJ Roberts coming on pretty soon who is like was the co founder of Kartra back in the day and now is working with doing a bunch of different stuff. But basically like he helped what's called Webinar Jam to go from like triple or quadruple their revenue or something like that this year. Get like 20 million plus in revenue. Brilliant dude. Craig Clemons will be coming on in the second, like probably quarter two of 20, 21. So it weighs out.

But I am working on booking a.

Bunch of really dope guests and I'm really excited about that.

But then every now and then you'll.

Just get stuck with me and Ed Ray and we'll just be here answering your questions. Just little me and Ed. But I am pumped for all the future people we got coming. And with that being said, Ed, I mean I don't have like a monologue. I don't have anything cool. I should, I mean I can, I.

Can, you know, I could try. We can chat, we can shoot the shit for a minute or we can just go into questions. What do you think? What's going on in your life, Ed? Let's do that for a minute here.

Damn. Okay, whatever. What do I start? Dude, also, sorry, this construction in the background. They're repairing the elevator, dude. Okay, so the elevator can take. So we have three Out. We have three elevators in this building right now. One of them is under. Basically it's fucked for the next six weeks, so can't use it. And we just finished like, you know, the first of the month, so a lot of people moving in. So we basically had one elevator for the whole building. So to get in the elevator would be like 30, 45 minutes plus Covid rules where you can only have two people in the elevator at a time. Oh. Oh, yeah. That's not fun. Not fun for anyone.

That's not fun.

Well, that's really interesting on my end. I went golfing yesterday.

Look. Look at. Look at the difference in. That's amazing.

That's fun. I got. I got a lot of today.

I got calls.

I'm working on business stuff. I'm doing my plan for 2021. David Ryan wants to have your wife as a guest. Yeah, for sure. We'll have Laura as a guest sometime. It's a good idea, David. David's always coming with the good. The good wisdom.

I know.

Chilling in Panama, just dropping. Dropping bombs of wisdom.

It's the people in Panama. I actually have a lot to share. It depends how much you want to go into it.

Well, one more and then we'll. Yeah, I mean, I want to go.

One more, you know. Yeah, okay.

For sure. So, I mean, we can. We can do a monologue, but I've basically. I got out of burnout and I'm fucking ready to rock and roll again. And I've really been tweaking my offer for my Facebook compliance program because I know it can sell way better than it currently is. I did a deep dive on my marketing message as well as the core desires of the people I'm marketing to. So the way that I was marketing it before is how to write high converting Facebook compliant copy. And like, that's cool. Sure. Okay. And people bought, no doubt. But what I realized is, so I realized that maybe 30, 40% of my buyers are copywriters who want to become offer or business owners. So they want to launch their own product or service on Facebook. And I was like, that's very interesting. Why is that? And then, so I'm in Ron Lynch's marketing mercenary program, and I was going deep into like five different avatars that my product or service could help my Facebook compliance program. And I realized that that benefit alone, like that core idea only targets to that specific audience of people, which is the off people who want to become or launch on product on Facebook. Because if you're a copywriter, you want High paying clients like that, that's it basically, right? You want to prove people wrong. You want to, you know, show people that you're like legit, like, you know, you're not a loser because just because you quit your job or, you know, you don't want to have to go back to your job or, you know, so like that. And then for business owners, they don't give two fucks about Facebook compliance. They just want their business manager back. They just want to get back on Facebook. Right, right. So, and actually I'll talk about that in a second, but I realized that I'm missing the mark on these two other angles. So what I'm now doing is I have multiple different offers. So for business opportunity, basically. So for copywriters, I'm basically going to market it as I'm going to show you how to get high paying clients by and you know, stop getting overlooked by clients. Basically get charged an extra 1-2k for every single sales letter that you write without having to do really much anything extra. Also how to get paid 100 bucks to write five sentences per Facebook ad. It's like really, like that's really sexy. Right? But I wasn't marketing like that before because I do teach that in my program. Now. That's one thing. And then the other thing is for the business owners, I now have like three options. I'm gonna have thousand dollar options to have, you know, buy my course. You can do it yourself. Done with you would be, hey, you want a bit more hand holding? I will go through your copy, like all of it and you get my course. So you can go through the course, you can take your time, but I'll be there with you. So if you want feedback on your sales order, I'll have some for you or your ads or whatever. So they'll get a few consultations and then the full 25k package is me with my new business partners where basically we do completely done for you, where we go into people's accounts because we have some connections inside of Facebook where we can find out exactly like the real reason why your stuff gets shut down that Facebook doesn't actually show you. And we can pinpoint exactly what that issue is. And then my partners will basically completely make your account, what's it called? Basically ban proof in a sense where like basically your personal government being like you as an individual in the eyes of government is tied to your Facebook stuff.

Right.

We basically show you like are able to help you cut that cord. So if anything happens to your, your assets, you're completely safe. So like, if you're, if you keep getting banned, there's a very good chance that you're, you will personally get banned or block posted from Facebook and you won't be able to advertise again. So we help prevent that. And if you've lost your business manager, we help you give you the exact chat scripts, exactly what to say to get your thing back. So that's. So we get your business manager back. And I also do done for you. I completely overhaul all your copy and everything to make it Facebook compliance. So that's 25k. So that's like a new thing I'm doing, which I'm really, really excited about. And I think that solves a huge need in the market that few people are even talking about and are even able to solve.

I like the 25k package because I think that's super alluring. I mean, like for, you know, Laura's got some cool stuff going on right now, but like, if that doesn't work out, saying, right, like, you know, we'd consider giving you 25k for that or she would, which would be me helping her probably because it's like, you know, a big upfront investment. But for a lot of business owners where they're, you know, if they're cranking.

Along already, I mean, I think all.

Of them are good, but I like the tiers and I think they're done. Done with you. Done for you. It's always a really proven model. I mean, again, but the best is like your 1k offer almost becomes like a lead gen for people that you're trying to get into. Like the done with you are done for you. We really want the done for you more than anything.

Right.

But it's really just like a 1k lead gen. But, you know, it's a great lead gen because it's like giving a ton of value and obviously people are like, you know, going to like be able to take that. And if you're a copywriter, you can like, to your point, charge more. Like, you know, is it a new revenue stream is a way to add value when you deal with other clients, all that kind of stuff. And then from the perspective of like a business owner, it's like some of them just want to do it themselves and like, want to know the secrets so they can teach their team.

But yeah, man.

Nice.

I like that structure a lot.

Thank you. So if it's cool, I want to kind of share the thinking behind it so people can get a lesson from It Is that also cool?

Yeah, do that.

I want to get to calls in.

The next seven minutes, five to seven minutes.

There'll be plenty of time. So the way that this applies to you is in your business, where can you give better customer service and give your clients and your people better results, faster? How can you go above and beyond to ensure that they have a great experience not only working with you, but also feel amazing about referring you to their friends and family? So I was like, okay, what do the business owners really want? Okay, they want their business manager back. Okay, I'm gonna find a way to make that happen. And we did. There's a guy who does that, that's his specialty, and he's now part of one of my partners. Okay, cool. So now that I have those assets set up, now let's sell it.

Right.

So in your business, where are you leaving money on the table by not offering a higher tier option? Because there's always gonna be somebody that wants to pay more for higher access, higher services. And if you're, you know, if you're a copyright, I don't wanna say just a copywriter, but if you're a copywriter, it's like, okay, well, how does it apply?

Right?

Like, you know, we all know that sales letters are like the most expensive thing or webinars, usually the most expensive thing that we can sell. Okay, sure. So then now the question is, how do you add even more white glove service to that? Instead of offering just a sales letter, you can offer an entire campaign saying, hey, you know what? I definitely recommend, you know, you get three. With this, you get. So instead of charging, I don't know, what do people normally charge for sales? Like 35k.

Kind of depends on the person. So it's one of the most variable things, like, ever. But I know, I know to your point, like, yeah, I mean, it's a fair, like, standard price, like 3K. Call it 3K.

Let's say 3K.

Okay.

So you charge 3K for a sales letter. Okay, that's cool. Versus you say, hey, I'm gonna give you this sales letter. But I also recommend I have a higher tier package where it's a full launch campaign. So you get, you know, three Facebook ads targeted to this specific audience because, you know, there's probably a few avatars. And then you have three Facebook ads targeting another audience. And then you have two retargeting ads for each of those two audiences. And each one of those two ads are handling objections as to why they didn't click or buy or whatever.

Right?

So that's. So let's say you charge a hundred bucks per Facebook ad. That's very standard. That's even like low. So three, six thousand bucks. Okay, that's for, that's okay. And then you want, let's say you want to have you know, four or five emails, launch emails to your list or to their list. And then you know, you have three, four urgency emails and then like two follow up emails or retargeting emails, that's another thousand bucks. Okay, so you just took a $3,000 offer to $5,000. And like if you, if you charge more, let's say 150 bucks per email and Facebook ad, then it becomes like, you know, four and a half grand. Five grand or what is it? Five, six. Five six. Dude, I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a numbers guy. I'm a words guy.

Like a whole segment copywriter is trying to do math.

Yeah. So Ian Pettis says, I've been thinking about this and it seems like you want to make sure that the higher, higher tier package doesn't take more time per asset such that your dollar per hour doesn't end up being lower overall. That can be true. But if you think about it as well, I'm going to counter argue that that is a good thing to have in mind and make sure you're charging enough to make it worth it. But also if you don't have that gig specifically think about how much time you're spending wasting on prospecting, dealing with clients, flakes, writing samples versus okay, you got the gig. So I'm going to put that in there too.

Yeah, makes sense. It is interesting. I mean to that point though, about your time. Just so you know, I mean one of the things I'm doing and the first thing I'm probably going to offer I'm going to do in 2021 for like cold Traffic is going to be a like challenge. Oh, everyone's doing challenges.

But, but it's funny cause I'm like.

I'm gonna do a challenge but then.

I'm gonna find a way to like.

Invert it and just sort of like mess up the model. But like to start I'm gonna just like do the model, right? I just wanna like, like I'm a big believer. I guess there's another lesson or thing to talk about is like, I'm like, oh cool, challenges are working really well. I'm gonna do, I wanna do challenges so that I can understand that model and write copy for it. Have experience with it and all that kind of stuff.

So I'm gonna do one about like.

You know, five clients in five days, challenge type thing like that, something like that where essentially, right, like I'm showing you how to get like five new clients in five days. We'll go through everything from, you know, the prospecting aspect to how to do the pitch to how to close them, all that kind of stuff.

And as I do that, you know.

I'll just give away like my ascension funnel on that is like, you know, that'll be like $97 or something like that. And then obviously we have Freelancer freedom, which people will be invited to buy, which is 997. I want to create like a four to eight week coaching program, which is not done by me because here's one thing that was interesting, like what I have to be the one to do it. And then somebody pointed out to me, they're like, well, it's cool traffic. They don't even know you anyway. So when they sign up, like, if you're like, once you're involved in all that and you're like, oh, here's like a legit like coach who's really good at getting clients, like, you know, then like, you know, you can.

Elizabeth, you're smart.

I'll come back to your thing in a second, Elizabeth.

But like, you know, with me coaching.

So sell that as a package without training any of my time for that. And then my sort of ultimate ascension thing will be like a two day intensive with me, which I like doing in person, where the goal is to get 10 people to pay like $10,000, maybe $15,000 to come spend two days with me. And the promise is essentially like, I'll help you again, not FTC compliant. Just like the ballpark is like, essentially I can help you double or triple your. What you're going to make for the next year, your income for the next year by spending two days with me, which is generally true. If you give me two days with somebody and I help them with how they're positioning themselves, what they're charged, charging what they're like, how they pitch, like really working with them closely, I can do that. Even if you look at the Freelancer Freedom workshop that Ian and I did, which was one day, it was like Troy Erickson that never made more than $6,000 in like a month before he went there.

And then the next month he made 20,000. The month after that he made 32,000. The next month he made 25,000 and he's like basically making a very healthy five figures. Rob Chidwell was on this call, went to that and then quit his job after because they started making enough money to be able to quit his job. There's. I know I can do that stuff. So the point is. But I'm like, But as I was doing, I'm like, that's gonna be my funnel. And I love working people in like a more intimate group. And I'm like, you know, okay. And then, so then the thoughts like, all right, let's say you get like 200 people into the challenge or like 500 people into this challenge. And you know, they're freelance. Or the people who work with clients, can they afford to pay 10,000 and say, well, most of them can't. And that's fine because most of them shouldn't do this. I only want people who I know I can truly deliver on. So it's about kind of filtration and the right people. I'm like, and then I'll break into like, payment. We can do two payments or three payments or whatever it is. But I had to think about from an hourly rate too. And I'm like, all right, well, my goal is to make a million dollars a month in income. That means my hourly rate is like $6,250 an hour, right? Eight hours per day working. What's eight times 6,250? If we do the math on that, right? Boom, $50,000 a day. So if I get 10 people to pay me $10,000 for two days, that equates to $50,000 a day. It's worth it to do it because it actually backs out to my hourly rate. Does that make sense where I just go back to thinking about it. Cause like, if again, if I do the same thing, but I charge, If I make $25,000 a day, then I'm like, oh, that doesn't make sense. But. But I am thinking about even for that offer, like the high ticket offer on the extension funnel, like how you know how to make it match to my hourly rate. Elizabeth, to your point? Cause Elizabeth said my problem is not getting clients, is getting good clients. You see, the reason I said you're smart is that is actually most people's problem. And it's something that will be taught. And it's five clients to five day thing. It's like, I'm not going to be like, hey, go get like five people on fiverr. Like, hey, congratulations, you got five clients. You know, he succeeded. But at the same time, there's A difference between what the market thinks they want and what the market actually needs. And I think, you know, a lot of people in any of these things, whether you're helping coaching people get more clients or you're helping consultants get more clients or it's cop. It's like people think they need more clients. And to your point, Elizabeth, they don't need more clients. Generally what they need is better clients. You're going to pay them more money and then they need those clients to keep hiring them again and again. That's what they actually need. But like what they think they need is more clients.

Right.

It's the same thing with like every business. Basically. It's like, oh, everyone's like, oh, if I have more clients. Not everyone, but a lot of people, like 80% think if I have more clients things would be better. And so that's why that's the more appealing offer. Right. Versus like the five day get the right client challenge. Even though that might be like a better like, you know, like really that's what they need, but that's why you have to shift it to what people actually want. So that's my.

Oh, Andy. Jess has an off as a question about creating his own offer.

What's up, Andy?

Hey guys.

Man, I feel like I always, you know, hulk the first place on the road to. But then I gotta, I gotta stop being stupid.

Everybody's playing favorites, bro. So everyone's gonna call everybody out. Yeah.

Yo, he came out. Look, he's first on the Q and A thing. All right? So I'm doing my job.

Okay.

That's right.

Cool. You want me to say my question?

Yeah, yeah.

So I am in the process of launching an offer. I'm trying to figure out what my mothership is. Just going Back to like JBolt's talk in the copy accelerator call, which is awesome. But yeah, I have a vision for what I want to do and I've been doing a lot of research on the market and I found basically similar offers to what I want to do. Go about researching these projects, these offers. Sorry. And then like creating my own unique thing that kind of stands out. Like my first initial thoughts is like just do RNBC and kind of pinpoint what, what these offers, like their big promises, what their unique mechanism is and all of that. And then obviously, you know, just kind of do a slight shift with my own thing. But I'm just curious to hear your guys thoughts when it comes to creating a new offer and how to go about that, you know, based on what.

I've just said, yeah, for sure. And so what are the. And you may have said this. My wifi is still sucking, so. But what are the. What? Vertical.

The vertical.

Sorry, what Vertical?

Yeah, what vertical is he offering to be in? This is like, like music. One niche.

Oh, one niche. Yeah. So it's the music niche. And I'm basically combining my skills from, you know, obviously being a dating coach, helping people with, like, social confidence, finding their purpose, their why and stuff with online marketing, you know, making money online and stuff. So I want to. Build more confidence, influence, and recognition. So what I'm seeing a lot in offers that are similar to what I'm trying to do is like, the big promise is usually based around, like, build and monetize a loyal fan base. I think if that, if I was to give you, like, the first promise that comes off the top of my head from, like, my research, I feel like it would be like, build and monetize a loyal fan base kind of thing. Like, that's. That's kind of, you know, what I'm going for.

Got you. And by the way, people saying I should connect to my hotspot, I can try that. However, I don't get very good reception at my house because I'm like, up against the mountain. So that might not work. Not in the place. So for people in chat, that's why I'm not connected to a hotspot, because I'm not in a place that become weak. Okay.

So monetizing a following.

Okay, and how have you done that in the past, so far within the.

Dating, it's just like, that's the thing. So, you know, I'd have to kind of take on some of my musician friends as like a case study and get them some outcomes, you know. But I am working. I'm starting this with a business partner. I got in contact with a guy from the Justin Stefan Talk coffee group who helps musicians with email marketing, and he's making musicians money right now. So I kind of have some help there in terms of showing results and stuff.

Got you. So. Thinking about it. So, I mean, so, yeah. So what are they? What do they. What do they really want? What are the musicians? What are their hopes?

They want? Yeah, like musicians. And I can speak from being a musician myself that, you know, we're attention whores. And we just want people to, like, love us and follow us and, you know, acknowledge our art, that we want our art to, you know, make a difference. And we want, you know, people to, like, we want people to follow us and we Want to, if that's making sense there. You know, they want. They want to be heard more than anything. I think, like, when it comes to the monetization side of things, it's like, yeah, that's nice. But what they really want is for people to know who they are, you know, that's what I'm getting.

Yeah. And so do you think probably would it be like an info product around this to start, Right? Or, like, it's like a training?

Yeah.

I mean, I've already got an idea for, like, a lead magnet that I could start promoting. And, you know, I'm gonna build an email list, a YouTube channel, and then probably a Facebook group of this and, you know, diversify on different platforms as I go along. But I think some kind of, like, info product, slash lead magnet to start with. But what I really want to do, and I think the coolest thing would be basically emulating what Copy Accelerator does. Like, I don't know if you watch J.D. waltz talk that he did the other day, but the whole mothership idea, like, I feel like my mothership idea would probably be some kind of, like, coaching program, and then there'll be different marketing assets underneath that, you know.

Okay. Yeah. We just wrapped up Andy's question. Basically told him start high ticket and descend from there based on his email list and adjust his offer based on feedback. That's it. Cool.

Makes sense.

Let's see who has a good question. By the way, please give a thumbs up on the question that you like the most, and I will take that into consideration when choosing what to get answered next. Next up is Lorraine asking about the challenges of being a copywriter.

Hey, Lorraine.

Hello.

I am so glad you're back, Stephanie.

For now, we'll see. Okay, I'm gonna talk real fast.

Okay.

Yeah.

I've always wanted to know this about you.

That's one of the things I've always wanted to know.

Like, your biggest challenge and how to get over it. Just. Biggest challenge on copywriting in general or.

Yes, just copyright.

Becoming a copywriter. Yes.

Yes.

Are we talking about, like, early on or are we talking about, like, today? Probably early on, when you were first starting.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges is the feast and famine cycle.

Right.

There's the idea of, like, you get some clients and you have, like, a really good month, but then as soon as it can feel as though as soon as you are able to actually relax and you may even plan, like, oh, next month I'm gonna take a few days off or a week off or, or whatever it is. But then suddenly you realize that you don't have enough money to do that and you're stressed and you're hustling and you're trying to find clients and you're kind of nervous about paying the bills and stuff like that. I mean, that's probably the biggest challenge that. And then maybe that would get tied with a challenge of confidence. The worry of not knowing if what you wrote is actually good or not. Is it, you know, are you on the right track? Are you. Is what you give the client can actually work and get results for them? And I think those are probably the two biggest, you know, the second one is really solved and a lot, a lot of it's solved by the RNBC method, which is, you know, why I'm such a big proponent. Obviously I created it, but I'm a big proponent of it because I think it helps you to create better copy more consistently. It also helps, you know, it's practice and, and getting wins and stuff like that. And on the feast and famine side, it's really about getting the same clients to hire you over and over again and then get referrals. I think that's the biggest thing. It's like early on for me, even with copy, but I was doing other stuff too. But I was doing all kinds of email copy and SEO and all that. But it's like Dr. Farrow who I've talked about before, he's been on the show not as a guest but, but a visitor and stuff. But he, this guy hired me on Upwork and I did a bunch of email marketing for him. And then he introduced me to this guy named Dr. Guy Annunziata who runs a company called, at the time, it's called Braincore Therapy. I think it's called Braincore Systems Inc. And they had like he does thing called neurofeedback and then he had like 120 doctors who were licensing his brand and technology. And so then I did a good job for Dr. Guy of his SEO and stuff like that. And then, then Dr. Guy was like, I was like, hey, you know, can I market to your 120 doctors? And he was like, yes. So then I was able to market to those 120 doctors and I helped some of them and then they referred me to people. So that was really the first time in my life where I know I lied for a second, but that was, if that makes sense, the first time in my life. It was because, like, I did a good job for one person. He Introduced me to another person, that person introduced me to more people. And that was really the. When I started getting enough steady income that I was still stressed because I still have to work a lot at that point in my career, but at least I had enough, like, because I got people on retainers and stuff like that for what I was doing. So that was enough that it was, like, steady income that I wasn't worried about not being able to pay the bills, you know?

Very good.

Thank you.

Awesome.

Loving that. Appreciate you.

Cool.

Yeah, I'm happy I was able to stick around. You stuck around. Yeah. You didn't stand me up.

Thank you so much, Stefan.

Appreciate my pleasure. And I'm going to turn off my camera. We'll see if that helps, but.

Cool.

All right, next up, we have Matia Chiaravelotti asking about sending more emails.

What's up, Matia?

Hi, Stefan. What's up?

Can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you.

Yeah.

That's just a fear that I hear a lot. Like, people are afraid to send, like, three meals a week, especially when it comes to restaurants and cafes, because they think, all right, it's too much. So people will bother, people will annoy people, and they unsubscribe from our newsletter. So what do you think? I mean, I told them it's not a matter of frequency, it's a matter if you give value to them. But still, like, yeah, it's a fear that I hear a lot. I know, like, for personal coaches or coaches of any sort, it's easier to send more emails. But when it comes to this industry, people are reluctant. So what would you say to them? And how would you approach email marketing in order to send more emails?

It's really tough because they're gonna be really stuck in their way because they're not marketers. And so you can give them all the facts and data in the world, but they're still gonna be.

I think a.

You have to almost accept, like, an 80, 20 principle here, and, like, 80% of them aren't gonna do it, no matter how compelling of a case you make. And. And just focus on the 20% that will.

Then I think you need to ideally have case studies. You know, like, I shared this at, like, Shanda Sumter's event, and I went back to teach the RBC method, like, six months after that or a year after that. I don't know, maybe six months, nine months after. And a bunch of the people. The first talk I did was about email marketing, talking about how you can email your list every day and I had a bunch of people be like. I was like, didn't believe you. I was full of shit. I thought you were full of it. And then, like, I started doing it and like, I tripled my revenue on my email list since you talked the first time. And it's like, yeah, because you're like, oh, this is amazing. So if you can have a couple case studies of other restaurants that have done that and show the results they got, then I think that's really helpful. I think the other thing to do look at is probably just be like, hey, totally get it. Let's just try this for two weeks and see what happens. And if you. Let's track the unsubscribes, let's check spam complaints, and then let's check if there's a measurable way to track ROI on this. More people coming through the door or people responding or engagement. And I think if you give them, let them make a micro commitment to it. Okay, let's try it for a week. And then let's just see if what you're saying is true. If it's true, then I will not push it anymore. We'll go back to doing it once a week or whatever it is. And if it's not true, then let me kind of keep going because this is proven. So probably that'd be my biggest one. Besides, case studies would be great. And then like, micro commitments.

Sure.

The thing is, I don't know any restaurants that do this. Do you?

No.

And so again, you're kind of like the pioneer of the arrows in your back. So while I think it's a really good idea, I think restaurants should be doing it. Like, you know, I've talked about this. You and I have talked about it via an email correspondence. I put a post about this in like the beginning of like last March or April, how I thought businesses should do this stuff too. And so. But I think you have to also think of it this way. Like, if you cannot get restaurants to come on board with it, then are you. Do you have the wrong offer right now? You know what I'm saying? Like, maybe you should actually. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to do this. Maybe you should be trying to do something else for them that gets people through the door, like Legion or whatever it is. Or don't work with restaurants, but up to you, but like, basically something like that. And then if you can give them a win somewhere else, then they may be more likely to then trust you or be willing to try to do like, Multiple, you know, to email more often. But it may be something where that's not what you lead with. That's not your lead offer. It's like something you bring into the mix after, like, a month or two of success and then get them to, like, see. And then as you have more and more people doing it, you can just point to, like, all of your clients who are having success and be like, you know, because then I think it becomes an easier sell. But maybe getting through the door, maybe you need to devise a different thing to be focused on selling them right now.

Mm.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Cool. Yeah. That's the best I got because, again, I think, you know, it's hard. It's hard to sell the market on something that they. Something brand new. A brand new. I started to sell an idea and a brand new idea, and, you know, people are resistant to change. So that. Yeah, that's what I would do. Sure.

I mean, even if it's. For now, it's like they're okay with one email a week, so I think I'll go for that. And then if we can prove that that works, we're gonna increase to two or three emails a week, so. And let's hope this can turn into a case study. So we'll see. I'll let you know.

Yeah, for sure.

Cool, man.

Well, yeah, keep me posted.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thanks.

All right, next up, we have a question from Nick about up and down productivity.

Sup, Nick?

How we doing?

Better now that my wifi seems to be okay. Knock on wood.

Good. I'm glad I got the good WI fi, Stefan.

Hopefully.

So the question I asked was, I have a lot of really good weeks in a row, and then suddenly it'll turn into good days, bad days in terms of productivity. Eventually I get my shit together and I'm back on being focused and disciplined. But then eventually I end up back in a rut and I have to break myself out of it again. So you and I together have talked about, like, when we were in Vegas last week, talking about diffuse thinking versus focused thinking.

Yeah.

And, like, the thing that I think I go through a lot, though, is during those diffused thinking periods, I feel. I'm, like, barely scraping by. I can't get clients. Like, I'm doing well. I'm comfortable at this point, but I definitely have this desire and potential that I want to grow, I want to get bigger, I want to do more. But sometimes I find myself falling more into those, like, diffuse thinking periods. And I'm Wondering whether it's just me being lazy, which most of the time it is. I mean, if I'm being completely honest, is it just me being lazy? Is it okay for me to be lazy? Should I take some time to just kind of rest and let my mind think? Or am I not living up to my full potential there? And could I be getting like an extra step on all of my competition? Because most people are going to be resting. But then at that same time, if I use that time just to get better doing the things maybe that I don't want to do, but that I know will push my career forward in terms of just all the various different little disciplines I think that it takes to be like a super high performer. So, yeah, I mean, I guess my question is just your thoughts on this, your advice, if you've ever gone through anything similar to that. I feel like it's a fairly common thing that, like, other people can agree with me that maybe they experience something similar to that.

100%.

Yeah.

I mean, I've talked about this with can we do a while back, and I think I wrote an email off the subject line, like, the paradoxical nature of downtime, which is that I think the paradox of downtime is that it makes you more productive. I think that is absolutely true. If your body or your mind or whatever is like, we need a break, and you constantly deny it, that break because you're like, I should be doing more, getting better, getting ahead, you may get some incremental gains in the short term, but then you're going to hit this burnout mode where you're going to. Your body and your mind are going to win out in the long run anyway, and you're going to erase those gains because instead of just taking the weekend off or taking like a few days during the week where you sort of are quote, unquote lazy, but then come back revitalized, you know, you're going to reach a burnout where it takes like a month or longer and you don't like, you know, and you're going to suffer more because of that. So I think that those periods are important. I think that part of it is, yes, you probably are doing some diffuse thinking when you are doing, taking that downtime. But I just also think, like, if you look at where you are at your age and you look at like, like, you know, like you just have to have balance in your life. I feel so. To me, I wouldn't. I think that the big thing is it's almost like we're downtime is the worst is because we beat ourselves up about it, and we're like, yeah, I'm a lazy piece of shit. Like, oh, what's wrong with me? Why am I not grinding?

Why am I.

And then we kind of beat ourselves up a bunch about it, and then, like. Then it becomes, like, almost fetishized or like a. Like an addictive cycle of behavior where it's like, we work hard, then we have downtime, then we hate ourselves a bunch, and we get ourselves out of it. And it's almost like a. Like a. Like a weird sort of way of creating, like, dopamine hits for ourselves. But I think that when you remove that and you just sort of say, ah, you know what?

This is?

Like, I'm just not gonna be doing as much this week. I really think that that's how you. How you manage. I think that's good. If you just embrace it. Say, all right, cool.

All right.

So it goes, you know, like, if it goes. If this spills into, you know, next week and I've got stuff to get done, I'm not getting it done, then I think I really have to maybe, you know, at that point, evaluate. But if it's like my. If I just feel like I need a few days to chill and that's what my. My body, my mind are telling me, then, you know, I'm just gonna do it. So that's. I think you should just embrace it.

Yeah.

I guess it's just like having control over that ability to just, like, hey, I want to chill out. Because sometimes when I say control, I mean both angles. Like, especially just on the side of when it starts. It sometimes lingers past a couple more days than I'd like for it to. I guess the big thing for me is wondering whether, you know, a lot of times it turns into me watching movies or just kind of, like, fucking around on YouTube or whatever.

Whatever.

Or just, you know, just doing whatever I really like to do outside of that. And it's not like I have a burning passion to do these things. I just. I happen to find south park funny. Like, I like comedy. I like laughing, so I like doing those things. But I always wonder for the side of. Okay, do you know, especially going back to what you said about, you know, my age. So, I mean, just for context, people that are outside of this, like, I'm 21, so, I mean, I've already seen, like, decent amount of success at 21 for copywriting, which I'm not, like, at all trying to, like, brag about. I mean, it's just to kind of give context. Like, I've done well, but part of me also always asks that question that what if. Just, what if for the next, like, year or two, you kind of just only focused on copy? And then after that, once you come out of it, you're 23, 24 at that point. One, you'd be way better at copywriting, so you could charge way more and kind of like, you know exactly. What we're talking about with freelancer freedom, too, is, like, just be able to command ridiculously high prices for your work because you're really freaking good, you know, like, you've obviously dedicated yourself to the craft, which I think every guy and girl that is able to charge, like, the amounts that all of us want to be able to charge for our sales letters, it's because they've committed a lot of time to it. One of the upsides of me being 21 is, like, I have an insane amount of time. I don't have kids. I have dogs, which are very low maintenance. But it's like, I have all this time that I could push towards that. Part of me always wonders that, like, what if I just did that?

Whatever.

A year or two years of just straight. That's all I focus on. And it's no distractions. None of the. I would still say there's, like, downtime in there, but it's just more focused downtime.

Yeah, but I mean, what's the focus if you go to diffuse, like, thinking again? It's the idea that, like, watching a movie or your video on YouTube or whatever it is. Like, you're giving your brain time off, and your brain's, like, doing stuff in the background. Right. So that's good. Like, your brain needs, like.

It's like, running your.

Like, redlining your. Like a sports car all the time. Like, the engine overheats, and it's not good for the car, and it breaks down.

Yeah.

Driving, you know, kind of every now and then, you know, red line, it. Sure.

You know, I would think about how, like, I think focusing on specific things is cool. Yeah. Focus on copy if you want to focus on copy. But that doesn't mean you still can't have, like, you know, plenty of stretches of downtime and just, like, relax. I mean, for me, I'm 35. I started getting a copy when I was 28 or 29, you know? Yeah, I'm 35, Ed. Wait, why is there a surprise that I'm 35? Do you think I was older or younger?

I thought you were like 30?

No. Yeah. I feel like I'm just. I am on my head. On my head, on the 30.

But that naughty photo you posted on Facebook yesterday.

Yeah.

So, like, I'm 35. I didn't start getting good at copy until I was 28 or 29. I mean, I didn't, like, become like, a millionaire until, like, my, like, early 30s. And, you know, that was with also doing, you know, all the. All the different issues I've dealt with in my life from, like, substance, you know, abuse issues in my early 20s, and then even in my 30s, like, ups and downs. I mean, I've lost, you know, millions of dollars in failed business ventures, you know, all kinds of stuff like that. Right. And so, I mean, I think the point is, like, you know, you're 21. If you're. You. You can do everything you're doing now and still have downtime, and you're still going to be like, like, ahead of Everybody else at 24 or 25. You know, with the downtime like that. It's not like, optimizing all of your downtime to, like, you know, oh, when I do downtime, I'm going to read and I'm gonna watch a TED Talk. And, like, that's not downtime. Like, maybe reading, if you read fiction.

Sure.

But it's like, it's not actually downtime. Like, you just need that and you need to be happy. Like, are you taking, like, the weekend off right now? Like, are you taking off normally?

It's like, yeah, I mean, I still take days off now, but I don't.

This is.

I mean, it's kind of a weird thing to say, but I genuinely don't just follow, like, the. For appointments and setting things up. I'll follow Monday through Sunday, but for my lifestyle, it's not really, like, okay, Saturday and Sunday I take days off. It's just like, if I want to take the day off, I'll take the day off, and then I'll take the next day off. I don't even know if it's a Tuesday or a Thursday. I all the time, don't know what day it is. I have to rely on a calendar.

Yeah, but that's a good flow. I mean, I think that works. Or, like, for me, I really try to take the weekends off. Besides, I'll still do my stuff from, like, when I wake up in the morning until my daughter gets up. But then I pretty much don't work on the weekends, and I got 1, 2. But I do find that that's helpful. Because like I've talked about before, even like the whole idea of Hemingway stopping every day. He'd write and then he would stop in the middle of the sentence because then he'd be like kind of pissed. He'd want to finish the sentence and then he'd start the next day and they know exactly where he left off and be excited to start, you know. And I kind of feel like it's the same thing.

Weekend off.

It's like, oh my God, I've got so much stuff I want to do. But then when I come back Monday, I'm just like, all right, time to do it. So I think like weekends off are good. I mean, you know, stopping working, you know, I just, I just think most of us think we have to like we always have a guilt if we're not working long hours and stuff like that. Um, and I just, I don't think that's true, you know.

Yeah, the other thing also is I remember reading in one of your emails recently where you were saying that you, you started working at 4am and you do like two hours of just like straight, just. What's the word that you use for it? It was a book that it's based off of deep work. Like you would focus on just deep work for the first two hours every day. And I've been doing that. So it's like even, even on my non productive days, I'm still pretty fricking productive because I'll still always get like at least 2, 3 hours of writing in. But yeah, I guess, I guess I understand what you're saying. It's also just a matter of me being able to kind of chill out and slow down a bit versus that side of me that's like, it's like Ricky Bobby. Like I want to go fast. I want to go fast.

Yeah, for sure. But I think again, like, yeah, I think you go fast into like, you know, fast off a cliff. Right? Yeah. So no, I think, I think you're the right track. I mean, I think of that too, dude. Honestly, like because of Eden and my daughter, her age of like three. And I think like Carlene Ingle, who did all of her stuff early in the morning and was like that magic morning time. It's like I basically, besides, you know, okay, a few phone calls, like A road to a million and the copy story, we could call, I'm like, I could just solely stop working at like, you know, like 8:30 every day and I'd still be, I still generate over a million dollars a year in Income. You know what I mean? So it's like. But then, I don't know.

I'm also.

I like to work a lot. But the point is.

Yeah, that's the problem. That's the big problem is I freaking love working. Like, I'll go to bed mad sometimes thinking about a sales letter. Like, exactly what you just said with the Hemingway thing. And it's like, I sometimes won't be able to put my. Like, I can't go to bed because I'm just focused on whatever, trying to connect the dots, whatever I put together today. And the problem is that I really, really, really like it. Like, the research side of things is so fun for me and being able to piece everything together and, like, basically wrestle with the idea that I'm trying to create for this sales letter or for a vsl.

Yeah, a hundred percent. But, I mean, I think that's good.

So.

Yeah, Ultimately, though, I think, like, just embrace it and. And, like, you know, kind of force yourself to have that time. Cause again, the other thing. Think of it selfishly and greedily, too. Like, not only will you be more productive, but, like, Sam put in the chat how if she doesn't take weekends off, her ideas suck. I think the same way. Like, it's like every time I actually take a few days off and I'm, like, laying by a pool, or if I'm on vacation or whatever it is, I get, like, all these really good ideas. Like, the idea for that reality, like, TV show that I want to do kind of came about because I was sticking around. Like, a lot of my best ideas come when I'm not actually working. And it's like, if you don't give yourself that time, then you're gonna. You're going to deprive yourself and your clients of all kinds of ideas, including ideas that could potentially change your life and get you way further ahead than, you know, everyone else's who's your age.

True.

All right, well, I'll take it to heart, man.

Sweet. Awesome.

Good question, Ed Ray.

Beautiful.

I think you took off your camera after I turned off mine, bro.

It feels weird that I'm the only person with a camera on.

It was nice because then people had.

A vision at a dinner party. Dude.

No, it's fine.

We'll go.

We're going True radio, you know, radio station mode today.

Girling. If you miss my eyebrows, look at my freaking photo, dude.

Who we got next?

Ed? I'm thinking.

Okay, you think?

Use that brain.

Yeah.

Don't ask me to do. Don't Ask me to do math though, please. Cool. We got a question here from Girling.

Girl Girl.

About a potential client.

If this is like a legit radio show, then I would have like a thing that like, that was like a version of like the Jolene song, the one girling we played as like a sound effect before we come on every time.

At this point, I'm surprised that no one has done an actual like cover of it. With how many people sing the song with my name.

There's still time, you know.

Well, Ed could play, he could play guitar and then you sing, so.

Stefan, I can play guitar too. And I can fireman.

Okay, my question is. So right now I'm speaking to a potential client and yeah, he owns an agency and based off our chat, it seems like the work each month is going to be very, very random. He has a lot of work lined up and he said if these projects go well, then I'll give you more work. My question is just really, since the projects are random, does that mean I should just push for payment per project? Like if it's a VSL one month, then charge what I normally would, etc. Etc. And also the second part to that question is he's also looking for someone that will, I guess, consult time to time because he said his team is very good at what they do. But when it comes to the actual copy part, in terms of basically almost like visuals, like where they should have pop ups, if they should have pop ups, when you're scrolling down when that sales thing would, you know, like stuff like that, he just needs someone to like give them tidbits on that as well. And I don't know how to approach as far as basically I don't want to get overloaded with them bombarding me with questions like I forgot what word is. Like that creep thing when you sign up to do something but then they just, then it just adds on and your workload like just skyrockets.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Scope creep.

Yeah, I mean if it's gonna be really variable, it's hard to like to create a retainer based around that. I mean you, you could if you're like, well, I'm gonna at least X amount of hours per like week or month or whatever. But I think if it were me, I probably would do it project based to start. And then I think on the consulting I just be like, oh cool, I'm happy to do consulting. But like, you know, it's just X amount per hour. I just charge an hourly rate in addition to that. For the consulting stuff.

Oh, I see. So you would kind of just separate in that sense. So if you asked me like, oh, I'd like you to consult or give advice for xx, I'd be like, sure, I can do it for an hour for this much. Like just really just separate it.

Yeah, that's what I would do. I mean, I think if it's just like, you know, obviously the person just has random quite. They pay you like you know, 5,000 or 7,000 or 4, whatever it is for like a VSL and then they have questions about the VSL plus implementation, like within reason. You should just answer the questions.

Yeah, yeah.

But if they're like, oh, you know, can you help me, like audit my marketing funnel and go through the copy and see the opportunities, like, oh, for sure, yeah. You know, I charge X per hour, so.

Okay.

I think it'll probably take like one hour or three hours. So, you know something, if that's cool, we can, we can get it scheduled.

Okay, awesome. That makes a whole lot more sense. Yeah, that's where I was confused because some questions, if they just simply asked if I've given them something. Yeah, for sure I'll answer and give some, some tidbits, but I just didn't know how to approach like the other side of it where you just explained if they just asked me, can you go through this and tell me what to do better?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'll just charge them for that.

All right, cool. That sounds good. Thanks a lot.

You were welcome. Girlen. Ed Ray.

Shalom.

Shalom.

What's up? Question here from Rob about booking clients in advance.

What's up, Rob? Rob Tidwell.

He's muted.

There he is.

Hi, friends. Hi, friends. Hi, Ed. Hi, Stefan.

Hey.

So, yeah, I have a question. So I'm kind of like going through a change in my freelancing side of things. And I've never been really good at like booking clients out far. I always just because seems like everybody's in a rush, which at least from my experience. So I've never been too good at booking clients out in advance. But I'd like to change that, especially now as I'm kind of pivoting to specialize in upsells. I got some stuff in the works on that, but just wondering how to go about that or if you have any advice on booking out in advance.

What. How long does it usually take you actually do the upsells for the clients? Like I guess, like work hours or whatever.

Oh, like a date. Two days. If I, you know, after edit. I mean, upsells are really quick. That's what's really great about, you know, upsells from my perspective. But that's going away from, like. I've been mostly just long form, and it takes, like, you know, I give myself, like, a month for these projects to make sure I do a good job. So I'm kind of transitioning, and then I get close to the end of the project, and I'm like, oh, now I've been lucky because I've been working with, like, the same clients, keep coming back, but I'm like, in the back of my mind, I'm a little worried, like, well, what if they stop launching products and. Or whatever?

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, I think that based on that, you know, I want to, like, I'd go slower than fast when it comes to, like, you know, booking in advance, but I mean, if you can. Upsells are a little bit tough because I think people do have an expectation that they can get done faster. Right. So you say, like, how long do you tell them right now that the turnaround time's gonna be? Do you tell them four weeks, or is that for long form?

That you tell them four weeks?

Oh, that's long form for I. You know, because I do have multiple projects. I've been giving myself, like, two weeks to write an upsell because, you know, I have other stuff going on. It's not. But I want to kind of switch from that. It just depends on what I have in my plate as to how far I book out. But, like, a lot of, like, say, for example, on our jobs board and copy accelerator there, like, pretty much 90% of them are like, we want this in the next month. Like, oh, well, I'm busy for the next month, but if you gave me another month or two, I'd be down for it. And so it's just kind of. It hasn't been a problem. I haven't run out of work yet, but I've gotten nervous once or twice this year. I'd rather. I'm trying to simplify my life.

Really? Yeah.

I mean. Well, maybe that part of that, though, is if you want to, like, for example, specialize in upsells, then, you know, you wouldn't have as many things sort of like, booked out. And, like, you do two a day, right. In theory, you could do like three upsell, like, packages a week.

Right.

Which is like 12amonth. And not that you still want to be writing that my upsell all the time, but I'm guessing it seems like you probably get upsells, but then you also get long form and then you're trying to like balance the upsells plus.

The long form kind of.

Right. Is that part of it?

Yeah, that's where I'm at right now. Because I'm not strictly doing upsells. I'm not even sure if that's going to be a thing. But I'm trying to bring in as many as I can. Like I've even thought about putting up. I mean I've never had a website, never needed a website. Doing a website with like just all my testimonials that I'm collecting right now for my upsells just to have something, I don't know, send people to. I don't even know if that's worth it. But so yes, right now I'm balancing long form and then trying to fit in these upsells.

Right?

Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to book out more. I mean I book out like generally I just tell. I give everyone like an eight week turnaround time basically. And I'm, you know, I'm also not doing, I'm getting paid a lot and I'm not doing a super high volume. You know, I think as you get better and reputation gets better, obviously that helps. Like one person paid me like 50 grand to just reserve a spot in 2021 for me which was like great.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

But it does help, I mean as you reputation because I mean I've thought about that where I'm like, I could literally put a calendar out and be like, hey, I'm do one letter a month in 2021. It's like you know, 50,000 or $55,000 per letter. Like here's like go in here now if you want to try and book me out, you know, and they have like an opening for each month and it's just like if I blasted that a bunch, I could probably book out like you know, 12 letters and $600,000 of upfront income by doing that. But obviously I've got the reputation to make that happen. As you get better and better results, I mean that does become easier and as you become better and better known, just goes back to kind of continue to market yourself and brand yourself and things like that. But if you could, yeah, maybe if you want to try, if you can find that you can sustain yourself by just doing upsells and create a really good niche for yourself there at that point I think you be able to book out more in advance anyway. But, you know, for the. I don't have a great answer for you.

I don't.

Do you anything you want to add to it? Because I'm sorry, I think, like, it kind of, like, it's just a reality of your schedule. I don't know how you're going to be able to get people to, like, if people really. If you're in demand, then you can get away with it. You're like, hey, you know, like, you want to reserve a spot with me for, like, you know, three months from now? Or. People can reserve a spot, but, like, they. You have to be high enough in demand for them to do that.

And that's.

Except either payment upfront or. And slots in the calendar. But people have to be like, I have to work with Rob and nobody else. So that's. That's the part that really has to be overcome beyond everything else.

Right.

I guess I just hear these fantasy stories like, oh, such and such is book four months out. I'm like, wow, how do you do that? I don't know if that's reality or not.

I mean, it can be. But again, everybody was like, oh, my God, Rob Till is like the best, you know, in the road. It upsells. Like, I would just kill to work with them. Then it's super easy. So part of it is just like you, you know, continuing to position yourself as like, the best of the. Like, I could do that, but again, I, you know, have this crazy track record, all that kind of stuff. But, like, you know, you. I mean, you could do something like. Yeah, I know. Like Elizabeth just said holiday's book around holiday season. I mean, you could also do. You could do like, hey, like, look, like, here's all the results I've gotten for quality clients. Here's the crazy testimonials I'm crushing. Like, you know, if you're. But I'm getting booked up. Like, if you want to get the tax write off now and reserve me for 2021, then, like, here's where you can book me, you know, for like, you know, a project starting in February. I mean, you can try stuff like that, but it just really comes down to, like, you know, your reputation more than anything else.

Sure. Makes sense. I'll just keep trucking. It's going well. I'm just. I'm getting excited for 2021. I got a bunch of stuff on my. In my head, so. Trying to make things easier on myself. Thanks, man.

Start trying to start charging a little bit higher rates too, though, if you're booked up all the time, you know what I mean? Not if you're existing client when you can, but even with newer clients, like start charging a little bit more because then that might potentially keep your calendar a little bit more open, but like a good way because you're still being paid more.

Yeah, I actually did just finally started charging five figures for a sales letter and that's made it better. But it feels like I'm doing less work. I don't know, It's a weird head place like making more money but doing less work. I'm like, I should get more work.

Yeah, I think that is something too. We try to fill that vacuum, right? It's like that comes back to a self worth thing and like a guilt thing where you're almost like, oh, I paid me all this money, but it was kind of easy to do it. So therefore like they shouldn't have paid me this money or I don't deserve this money or I better find more work or I better know there's a lot of stuff like that. But it's also like a point in your life where it's like, no, don't be afraid to also just be enjoying your life now and having. Feeling blessed that you have money and you have the ability to have downtime and you have the ability to spend time with your family, I mean, I assume. And then don't live outside of your means to the point where if you lose all of your clients next month, suddenly like everything would go to shit and you'd be gonna desperate panic situation.

You know what I mean?

Make sure you're putting money, saving money, stuff like that too. I think that's really the, the approach there. Yeah.

And I'm finally in a good spot. It's been a good year for me, so I'm just, I'm doing much better, but I'm just always trying to improve. So thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Absolutely, dude. Happy to help.

Rob, you are the man.

He's so clean shaven in this photo.

I know. What a handsome gent.

First time I see him, he's got like the huge burns and like a little beard kind of coming in, all that kind of stuff.

Such a cutie. All right, question here from Ian Pettit. Around, walks around, pursuing too many prospects at once.

What's up, Ian Pettit?

Hey, how you guys doing?

Good, how you doing?

Excellent. How are you?

I'm feeling pretty good. The sun's shining here in Indiana, so. Hey, can't ask for much more.

Fort Wayne right here.

Yeah, man, that's Interesting to hear that. Come back and see your roots sometime, Stefan. You know, the Summit City happily do.

That in the summertime.

Yeah, for sure.

So anyway, sort of the longer story is that around the time you guys were doing the copy accelerator live event, I had told myself, well, I'll. I'll go if I can, like, land enough client work to pay for it.

Right, right.

And I came just short of that. But at the time, I was in talks with, like, sort of the one client I actually have right now, which has been the dream client that I've been chasing.

Right.

He's like, I don't know how many figures influencer. Like, he's got like a net worth of $400 million and he's got an offer out there and it looks awesome. And so I was like, well, you know, maybe I can help out. And I sent them the cold emails, I did that thing.

And.

And his marketing guy was like, these are great. Let's try out some stuff. And I knew it was going to be a little bit of a problem because at first he just wanted the checkout page done. And I'm like, okay, you know, little test project. But when I looked at their funnel, I was like, dude, your headline is not great. Like, the emails aren't great, but okay, okay, we'll do it. So we got done with that. He's like, all right, thanks. And I got paid and all that. And then, you know, it was a little bit. It was like crickets. And then he said out of the blue, he like, messages me. He's like, hey, how's things going? I need help. We're not converting. And I had been like, you guys need your sales page done? So I like, did him a sales page. I redid it, like, up front because I'm trying to, you know, get this guy. I'm relatively new, I'm relatively untested, all of that stuff. So, like, did like a $2,500, $2,500, 2,500 word sales page. And it's like, merry Christmas. Let me know how it converts. And it's again, crickets. And so on the one hand, I want. I really would like to have that on my resume is like, I got these guys, you know, increase their conversions rates, get a great testimonial from, like a big name, because that's like a major foot in the door for, you know, that's like a powerful testimonial. But at the same time, I'm having these long gaps of communication. I don't know if I should just say, hey, listen, dude, like, if you don't want to work with me, please just tell me and give up the chance to have that whale client testimonial. Or if I should just. And again, to the main part of the question, which is that like, when I think about taking on lots and lots of different clients at once or putting out lead gen stuff and then trying to do that all at once, I'm really nervous about over promising and then under delivering because I've got too many irons in the fire, which is a tendency I have. So I'm just trying to avoid that. So, you know, how do I balance that? Is it worth it to give up the opportunity for that really awesome client testimonial? Because I want money now.

Yeah, I mean, I think you can do both though. I don't think you need to just wait around for them. I mean, I think you should continue. Like, I think someone in the chat as well. But I think, you know, following, following up is really important. You know, like, it's just like the bigger the client is, the more they have going on and the busier they get and the less responsive they can be. You know, I mean, it's just like a rule and it's not necessarily anything like, you know, personal to you or that doesn't, you know, that your copy's not working or anything like that. It's just that they've just got a bunch of stuff going on. So I think like, you know, I wouldn't like give up on them or even send an email, like an ultimatum type email. I just would follow up like, hey, checking in, How'd it go? Let me know. Would love to work with you more in 2021, you know, and just follow up with them pretty consistently. I think that's cool. And I think as you're doing that, yeah, like again, I want to just sit around waiting. It's like I would go out and get a few more clients. I don't think, you know, it has to be something where you're like, oh, I guess I better go overload myself with clients. It's like I would just go out and prospect and try and get another, you know, client or two and ideally take some, you know, if you want to take like one off projects on it. So you can sort of like just do work that then you get through and then by the time you're done with that, if the, if this dream client happens to, you know, turn into like a retainer or something like that, then you still have Flexibility. I don't think you need to go get other, like, don't go replace that with like, crappy small retainers. But. But I would definitely be looking at getting a few more kind of gigs. But don't overload yourself.

Just get a couple.

I mean, if you're not doing anything right now, then getting one or two more clients would be manageable and bring money in today and it'll be beneficial. You don't need to go get like 5 or 7 or 10 and overload yourself. So don't look at it in such a binary way, I guess, is my advice.

Right, right. Because in the meantime I had. Because I was like, well, I've got to do something. So I had started working on, like, sort of like my personal media platform as it were, building a website and trying to have a platform to put my blog posts rather than just on LinkedIn. But that's not like, that's not even really money later. Certainly not money now. And money now is kind of where I'm at, so. Yeah. And I think that part of what's disappointing is that there was a lot of sunk time cost in researching to get that voice down. Right. And so I have a few other, like, people that have been on their email list for a long time that I'm thinking, like, I could probably, you know, Todd Herman is one, Bedros Coolian is another. Even sometimes, like Grant Cardone, who's emailing all the time, it kind of seems like, well, it almost might be the kind of team who would take on. But the cost of trying to get down their voice in advance, I think is just. Maybe it's just daunting. I just need to get over it and give it a shot.

So, yeah, I mean, I think so. And again, I mean, just looking at. Most of them are going to hire you for, like, a few test projects anyway, you know what I mean? So it's not like you have to like, like, you know, I know the voice of. But it's not even a sunk Costa, because again, this big, well, client might come back to you and like, you know, and be like, hey, I've been super busy. Sorry. But like, this converted. Great. We finally tested it. What can I do? Can I put you on a retainer? We'll pay you $10,000 a month or, you know, like, you know, like, all that stuff can still just happen out of the blue.

You know what I mean?

That's true.

So it's like not like a sunk cost. This is like, delayed for now.

For now.

It's a delayed hour. And if they come back, I don't want to work with you, I'm too busy. All right, then I guess it was a sunk cost. Well, even then got better. But I just sort of think, yeah, like in, you know, I guess it also depends on the kind of clients you want to work with. But it's like getting the voice rate for all of them like that. Are you overcomplicating it sometimes when you could just write copy for people, like, I don't know, like I write for. How long does it really take you to get their voice right?

Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think that sometimes I read the emails for, for one or another guy and I'm like, that's like, okay, you know. But there's a certain.

I feel like.

If it's good email copy, it's all got the same kind of feel to it. It's conversational. It's got like a attention grabbing headline. It's the zebra email.

Right.

And so if you can write a zebra email for one person, writing it for another is not going to be that different. And if they come back and say, hey, I wouldn't say the word bro or whatever, that's, that's like a tiny change. So yeah, you're right.

Yeah, awesome.

Cool.

Hopefully that helps. Hey, thanks a lot, man.

Can I add something to that, please? For sure. So I'm, I'm like rereading your question again. And one thing I'm like, I'm seeing is you're phrasing. I'm worried I'll end up over promising under delivering. Me personally, I, well, I don't really do much freelancing anymore, but when I did freelancing, I would always, always, always have three to five deals in my back pocket. Like just in conversation. Just because you're talking to somebody about working together doesn't mean you have to do it right away. And bonus points because now you have a quote unquote waiting list. Say, hey, I'm really booked up right now. I'm free next month. And now you have more prestige right now.

I guess you only really need to bring that up if they ask how soon you can do something. Otherwise you can wait until they're like, oh, hey, I really want you to. I really want to work together and say, all right, well hey, I'm available in. Or would you put that out there earlier on the conversation?

No, just talk about working together and then say, hey, so when can we do this? And you go, oh, actually I'm. Well, I wouldn't overthink. Focus on delivering value. Focus on putting those, what's the expression? Irons in the oven.

Is that it is irons in the fire.

Yeah.

Stick a bunch of irons in the fire because some of them aren't going to turn into swords. Some are just going to be a lump of steel deal.

Exactly. So start putting the irons in the fire, dude. Make sure you got a 3 to 5 in your back pocket anytime. And because that gives you the power, right? Use the power to say no. Because if you come across some deals like, so if it says here, like you're worried about over promising on delivering, you don't have to say yes to every single. And I know that, I mean, like, I'm not sure exactly what your situation is, but it's definitely a shift in mindset saying, oh, I can actually say no to a client that I don't want to work with because I don't want to do that project. That's crazy. So, yeah, I hope that helps.

It does. Good points. Hey, thanks guys.

Absolutely. Sweet.

Rapid fire in the last five minutes.

Let's do that.

All right, I'm about, from Danny. I'm about to write my first real estate investing letter. Any tips or idea on how to create a great attention grabbing lead? Also, any idea for Facebook ads on it?

I mean, I think, you know, story leads and contrarian stuff like, you know, sort of like, I think like real estate investing sort of a hot niche right now. And there's a lot of people with like real estate investing offers and masterminds and things like that. So, you know, I think a story lead always, always works of sort of like the, you know, I was like down and out and like, you know, the country song. The country song lead, right? Like, you know, my wife left me, my truck broke down, my dog got, you know, run over by a train, blah, blah, blah. But then, you know, I discovered this sort of like, you know, secret to like real estate investing because, like, you know, I've been trying to do real estate investing, but I know that was working. And then, you know, my life sucked. And then I uncovered like the simple breakthrough, blah, blah, blah. But I think another idea might be like a good contrarian angle. Like something about why, you know, why 99% of real estate, like investing, you know, like what 99% of real estate investors, like, get wrong or like what, you know, 99% of real estate investing courses will never teach you or like the one, the one secret that you can't learn. I mean, just something kind of like how like that differentiates you from what everybody else is doing. Something curiosity based and contrarian. It's probably my. My gut. Yeah. I think you want to add to that, Ed.

No. Yeah, I got nothing for you for that one. That was solid.

Cool.

All right, here's a question for me, apparently. Hi, Ed from Shawnee. Hi, Ed. Trying to craft some offers and niches that are not considered super PC on Facebook, such as diet items and relationship courses. Do you have any tips? Because it keeps getting banned. That's a huge can of worms. I definitely recommend Stefan, Are you cool if I plug my email list? Because I talk about that type of stuff all the time. Cool. You can go to edray.com so e d r e a y.com I talk about a lot of Facebook compliant stuff amongst other things and tell funny stories and talk about random shit which I think you'd find very interesting. But overall, unless. Yeah. Not to be. Yeah. Thanks, Stefan. Gross. No, it's not. It's not. Ed.com God damn it, Stefan. Ed ray.come d r e a y dot com. Say it again. E d r e a y dot com. I definitely suggest being first of all, seeing what other people are able to market. That's one thing for sure because you can market diet items and relationship courses. I've seen a lot of people do it. Not a problem. It's more so how you do it. One important takeaway is it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So yeah, that's that.

Sweet.

What's. You want to do one more?

Yeah, yeah.

Trying to get as many.

I know from Sapanta. What's a definite way to 100% validate an offer that you're slapping up.

Now? You're what up? Slapping up.

Yeah, I guess putting together.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

How do you 100% validate it?

I mean.

Yeah. Can you 100% validate it? But you can if you're already putting the offer together.

Fuck.

I mean that's kind of a little question. I'm trying to think about how the best way answer that.

I think selling it before you fulfill.

That's what they usually. That's like the standard advice.

I mean not a bad one.

Like. Yeah. Sort of like create a landing page for it and run ads to it and see when people click the add to cart button. Basically that's like the classic kind of response. Which makes sense. I mean it's probably the best way because if people were like reading the copy and clicking the add to cart button on it and they would buy it. Then you kind of know this has legs.

Follow up question from that person. Would you consider a LinkedIn connection list, an email list and would you extract the emails and start an email automation? Is that even legal?

I mean I don't think this is like, you know, well, legal terms. It's kind of great. I think.

I know stuff, but I.

Don'T want to give advice on that.

Because I wouldn't be emailing people unless they ask for it. Don't get fucked by gdpr.

Every time I get emails from people who I didn't opt into their list, I just hate them immediately. Yeah, it's like once every month or like once a month like somebody just starts emailing me if they're like new. Even the content's not bad. I'm like, just like, like me like f this person, you know what I mean? So I don't know. I think it's better, better ways to get in contact with people than that for sure.

Funny, funny story. I think when I was in grade six or something, there was this girl who used to bully me because I was fat and I had man boobs and she said I had custard tits. Anyway, that was really sad time for me and so I went to all the frickin spam websites and stuff and put in her email. So she had. So she was subscribed to like 30 to 50 different just like random mailing lists and like porn sites and stuff. It was hilarious.

That's, that's a little vindictive but also funny. Yeah, Laura did that. We were, she was on target Vegas like a year ago and some guy was like staring at her get out of the car and like left a note on the windshield that was like, you know, just like hey, like looking for a, you know, good time. Like wow, it's a super sleazy note. And like left her this phone number and so she was the same.

We went and we went and did.

Like a bunch of like Legion stuff where it's like, you know, I'm looking for like, like, like a mortgage or like I'm looking to go back to college or just all that kind of stuff. And I just like fucking put the guy's phone number and like all of those who's like, we just. He just got blown up with people cold calling think you know, offer him like chances to go to online college or like how to like you know, get a loan or a mortgage or stuff like that. So it's kind of fun.

Savage yeah, yeah, I saw David about Adam Alan Forrest Smith. So no worries. I appreciate you checking. Dude, come on, two more. Two more real quick. Yeah, there's only two in the Q and A.

We can do them fast.

Come on, we can do it.

All right.

Chad Palman. I came for the hardcore nudity, but stay for the Q and A Question. What literature would you recommend or direction would you give to someone brainstorming an offer? I know it must meet certain lifestyle criteria.

I mean, it kind of depends on the offer, though. Are we talking, like, what, you know, what niche or category are we talking about? Like, you know what I mean?

I can throw it together a little something. Stefan, go for it.

All right.

Number one thing is what do you want your life to look like? That's the number one question. That's the only thing I think about, really, in terms of at least how to get started with it. It's who do you want to serve? Who are you passionate about helping? What skills do you have that you can offer? And what information do you know that other people need? And how much work and effort do you want to put into this? Most people go, oh, like, you know, I want to work, you know, 20 hours a week. It's like, okay, cool, but what kind of work do you want to do? Do you want to be coaching people? Do you want to be just doing straight up sales? You know, so if you want to do straight up sales, then you would probably have a recorded high ticket program and you just get on the phone and, you know, enroll people in your program. Or, you know, if you're. If you love writing, maybe you do a newsletter or if you like writing but hate deadlines and consistency, like yours truly, maybe do books and then you just launch them whenever. Or maybe you're like me as well and you really enjoy being on video and camera and being a performer in a variety of different ways. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more. Then you do, you know, video trainings. That's what I do. All my programs are launched. I have one is launched via video training. I record it and I sell the recordings.

Right?

So that's really something to look at. Hope that helps.

What's our last one here?

Well, we got two. You got me thinking from James. What's the best way to get into the spiritual niche of copywriting and marketing? And how's the exchange of energy there? Meaning how much does it pay?

Yeah, spiritual mission is pretty good. The best way would probably be the same as everything else. I kind of, I mean, obviously like Going to events and things like that. But that's hard right now. But you'll get on those types of lists, like emailing the owners of the different offers, kind of sharing, like your giving them some copy for free that you wrote for them and being like, feel free to test it and if that goes well, I'd love to work, work with you more. It is a mediocre market as far as how much it pays. There's a lot of people who are really into like the spiritual stuff or like Law of Attraction or like new age manifestation who don't actually manifest all that much money.

You know, I was gonna say these are most of the time like from my experience, this is like people who like want to feel better about themselves. Like, oh, money means nothing, money is just paper, but it's like they were living in a shack.

There's also a lot like broke ass psychics where you're like, you know, you're a psychic but you can't use your intuitive powers to make money.

So you know, it's like, but I.

Do know people who carve it out there, but you're just going to find. I feel like every time I hear somebody in that niche, they're like, yeah, they said that I, you know, I wrote this for them and then like, you know, if it does well, they'll give me some money. So they're like, they're trying to get these performance skills. Like they, you know, I mean, think about it like if you want to be like, who are the top health people? Like, here's a ton of people. Here's the top financial. Here's a bunch of people who are the top survival. Here's a bunch of people who are the top like business. Here's a bunch of people, you know, who are the top. Here's a bunch of people who are the top spiritual. Like, I don't know.

So it's like not as big of a niche, right? Like it's not like there's, you know, numerologists or whatever. Like, you know, that sort of spiritual stuff. Like the Secret obviously did quite well.

But.

But I'm not saying you can't reign that niche, especially if you're passionate about it. But it's not like a massive super lucrative niche. I mean, you have to probably go through a lot of BS clients to find a couple of good ones.

I will counter and say that as you know from personal experience, if you go with the spirituality niche and say you dive into, let's say middle aged execs and corporate People who have lost meaning in their life and are burnt out and hate themselves. That's a goodness to go after.

Yeah.

And if you're creating an offer that's different, but you're trying to write for clients. I mean, I think as far as clients go, there's like a ton of like, like whale clients in the spiritual niche.

Yeah, exactly. And you can, and you can definitely. I think you can probably find people in the spirituality niche. Like, I, like, I know personally, like, if there was like a solid spirituality thing where like they take you. Actually, one of my buddies was telling me that there's this like, guided. Basically, it's like a week long and you take like four or five different types of plant medicines, AKA like, you know, like ayahuasca and psilocybin, et cetera. You take four or five of them over the course of a week and there's like 5K or something like that to do that. So, like, there is money in it, but it's very, very niche. And it would probably be in the higher ticket rather than in the low ticket stuff.

Yeah, 100.

Okay, let's go to the last. What was the last question?

All right, From Elizabeth. Are paradoxical questions the same as fascinations?

No. I mean, they could be, but a paradoxical question's purpose is to open the prospect's mind and shift like a paradigm so that they're more willing to accept either the unique mechanism of the problem or the unique mechanism of the solution. So, like, for example, when I am doing a carnivore offer right now, and it's like, if veggies are so good for us, why do almost all kids hate them and we have to force them to eat them? And you're like, oh, yeah, that's true. Right. Why are so many poisons made from plants but very few poisons made from animals? Why is that true? It's because plants are actually secretly toxic and we weren't meant to eat most of them and we should really be eating meat. So you can use the paradoxical question there, and then it sets up sort of the unique mechanism behind the problem and also then can lead to the unique mechanism behind the solution. So that's what the paradoxical question is really good for. It sounds similar to the fascination question. A fascination question, Elizabeth, would be like, you're going to discover the, like, the three reasons why you should never eat carrots if you, you should never combine carrots and chicken if you want to have good digestion. Um, you know, it could be like, how you'll see how three common grocery store produce items, which you probably have in your refrigerator right now, could be the real reason behind your bloating, fatigue and foggy brain. You know, like the three things to never. They're more like. They're more of like almost like statements versus questions. I guess that's one of the biggest parts of it. The paradoxical question is like asking the reader to consider something and then opening their mind so that then they will be more open to like our solution. So again, Elizabeth, I would show the chat. Where would you put the paradoxical questions? So again, I would. I would generally put those going to the mechanism. So going back to that carnivore example, it's sort of like if I, the spokesperson has just heard about how.

You.

Know, they shouldn't eat vegetables, they'd be like, you know. Well, like that seemed like hard to believe because I've always thought veggies were good for me. But then I did think about it. I thought about how it is weird how we have to force kids to eat vegetables because they never want to. And you know, could it be that, you know, this doctor was right and what he was telling me about.

You.

Know, vegetables, like actually was making sense. We were really, you know, wired. So like that you could also do it after the mechanism where you explained the mechanism of the problem and same thing though, like, sort of like, oh, like it made sense. But I was still kind of like skeptical. But then I thought about it and then like ask a paradoxical question, right? That gets somebody's like, mind every now and then. You can use a paradoxical question in the lead, but that's sort of advanced. And frankly, I just don't think that that's most of the time, 80, 20 in it. You just do it to set up the mechanism of the problem and the solution.

So there you go.

Sweet. Ed Ray, we did it. We had some bumps in the road here. The bumps in the road to a billion. Some disconnections, some WI FI problems. But we made it through.

Made it.

There we go.

Thanks for covering and talking about astral projection while I was gone.

Hey, man, you got it, yo. People were asking if I. If I can do like a Q and A or like an open call thing. I think I might do that at some point.

Yeah, do it.

I'll also just give you a Thursday because we wrote to billion of Ed Ray if you ever want to do that.

So you figure it out.

I would be down for that, actually.

I mean, I'm down. I mean, I love doing the show, but at the same time, it'd be fun to just have, like, a Ed Ray takeover, you know, I'm cool with that.

We could talk. We talk about literally anything mean. Hey, man, if you want to schedule that in, I'm cool with that. I mean, I'm here every week, so you let me know and I'm a little bit. We'll do it. We could do Facebook, appliance projection, astral projection, dating, attraction, psychology, sex, kombucha, you know, all the good stuff in life.

We can totally do that.

I. I'm down. I feel like I'm trying to figure out, like, my Rojabillian's got taken off my calendar for some.

Some reason, but.

Who knows why that is? But, yeah, I mean, we've got some open weeks coming up. We'll talk about Ed. So anyway, thank you, everybody, so much. Thank you for listening to the Road to a Billion. If you listen to this on itunes, make sure you subscribe. If you are watching the replay on YouTube, make sure you're subscribed to my channel and that you hit like. And that you comment and tell us, you know, what you enjoyed. And other than that, we're going to see everybody next week. Thank you so much, everybody.