[RTB:E47] Building Brands Like Oprah Winfrey, Steve Harvey and Fortune 500 Companies w/ Jen Kem

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call and radio show style podcast where you can ask myself and my guest questions about copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, businesses, relationships, branding, money and more. The reason for the name the Road to a Billion is twofold. One is because I've hit around a billion dollars in sales by selling products of my own as well as helping clients to sell theirs. And the other reason is because I want to make an impact on on the lives of a billion people over the next 10 years. We'll take your kind of questions and calls and maybe about 40 minutes from now, and the way that works is if you're on Zoom, you just pop them into the Q and A and we will get to them. But before we do that, I want to introduce my awesome guest today who is Jen Kam. If you don't know Jem or Jen, she is a strategic brand advisor to modern entrepreneurs and the creator of the Master Brand Method, a framework to develop powerful brand archetypes that win customers hearts. She works with emerging entrepreneurs, celebrity brands like Oprah Winfrey Network and Steve Harvey, major corporations including Verizon, Blue Cross, Blue Shield and Bank of Hawaii. And she deeply understands entrepreneurs, fears and challenges. Jen built a retail business and became a millionaire at 32, only to lose it all in the recession two years later. But that didn't stop her from getting back up and building three separate multimillion dollar brand building businesses. And she's used everything she's learned in her failures to teach up and coming entrepreneurs what to do and what not to do to build unforgettable brands. She's also played a huge role for myself and M company Copy Accelerator and we'll talk about that. But Jen, thanks for joining me today.

Stefan, I'm so pumped to be here with you.

I am so pumped. Like I really, I mentioned this as I was kind of sending out an email to my list about this episode, but I mean, you're definitely one of the smartest people I know. You're so just in general but like, you know, predicting future trends, you know, as far as branding goes of our Mastermind Copy Accelerator, you know, Justin, I will tell the story of how we had, you know, we paid you for a weekend and I forget what it was. It wasn't cheap. It was like 20,000, $30,000 or something like that. And it was like to help us with our live event so we could sell more tickets. And the very first hour of the first day, you're like, well, we're not gonna get to any of that until we know, like, what is your platform actually? Like, what is it? What do you stand for? What's your framework? Like, what's your goal? Like, you started asking all these really smart questions, and so we thought we were going to just sort of learn how to sell tickets, you know, and mastermind memberships. And it turned out, you know, you helped us re envision our entire business. So, you know, it was one of the best investments I've ever made from a business perspective. It was just awesome. But so I guess, like, let's start there. We'll start in the present, and we'll work our way back. I mean, what is it that you're most focused on today, like, for people, when you do your elevator speech or your 30 second, like, hey, I'm Jen and this is what I do. How would you explain it to people?

Well, I like to say that on the surface, I help entrepreneurs get seen, heard, and paid. That's kind of the simple thing that we do in our company at Master Brand Institute. But what we really do is we help people build a platform and experiences that make them have a brand that outlives them ultimately, you know. And when I say that, it could be like the Steve Jobsque type of vision where he knew that at one point he wanted Apple absolutely to outlive him. Even though he had one of the biggest egos on Earth, that ego supplied him with the confidence to build something legendary. And then I think everyday entrepreneurs can harness that same drive and vision to create the same type of thing, even if they choose an exit or whatever, that whatever they build is something of high value that helps people, but also, frankly, makes a huge impact in their legacy, wealth in their lives. And so that's what we really do under the surface. So even as you described you and Justin coming and visiting us in the San Francisco Bay area right before, Was it right before the pandemic? I can't remember.

It was right before the pandemic.

Yeah. People, a lot of times come to us for, hey, I have, let's say, an experience. I want to create, like a live event or I want to build a digital presence, you know, And I'm like, sure, yeah, we can do that for you. Because as you know, especially as a pro, expert copywriter, you got to give people what they think they need or want, rather, and then actually give them what they need, which is the bigger Picture. What's that? Macro strategy. So ultimately, that's what we do, and that's what I love to do. And I'm glad that I came and returned back to this place because I probably would have been doing something a lot different if I would have stayed the old course that I was on.

So that's a perfect segue. Look at you just teeing it up for me. So what was the old course that you were on? What did that look like?

Yeah, I tell people a lot that I'm not a spring chicken, I'm a season chicken. I've been in marketing, branding, and strategy for 20 plus years. The first hemisphere of my career was in the corporate world. My last job was as a VP of marketing on the west coast for Verizon. And I. I'll get to that in a minute. But really, I had that first hemisphere and I decided that I didn't want to work for other people anymore, even though I had ascended the ranks of corporate politics pretty fast, because I got really good advice as a young person of how to do that. But I was really feeling empty. And then something happened where I got passed up for a promotion that had been promised to me. And I'd worked my ass off for like a year to create this result. In fact, the last launch that we did at Verizon is now what is Internet protocol tv. And so it's a billion dollar product line. And I was the head of that initiative. And at the end of it, my counterpart got the raise and got the promotion. And I thought, wow, I have no control over my future. And instead of getting angry, I made a plan to exit. Kind of like I think about businesses too. It was like, look, obviously I don't have any autonomy here. You know, I don't have any control over my future. And even if I'm the hardest worker and the smartest person in the room, you know, that doesn't guarantee my success, Right? It didn't guarantee anything for me. And so I made a plan. Nine months. I had two young daughters at the time, so I wasn't. I don't have. That sexy entrepreneur story was like, I got pissed off and I jumped the cliff. You know, I actually made a nine month plan because I had a mortgage and two kids to pay for. But I was clear on that plan. I said, okay, nine months, I'm out of here. So every month I stopped buying, like, shoes and, like, purses and like, some of the things that I knew that if I just waited, I could build something great. So you mentioned in my bio that I started a company and you would think, and looking back, if I had a magic wand, I might have decided differently. But I don't regret anything because I don't think I would be as seasoned if this hadn't happened to me. I went into retail because I didn't even think about packaging my expertise and my experience into like, let's say, a consulting business or an education business at the time. So I thought, let's go radical and do something completely different. Because I think a lot of entrepreneurs sometimes think they should do that as well. And I was that person. So I figured, oh, I like to shop, but what I'm really good at is smelling the money. I like to say I know where the market is and what they need. And at the time, I was living in Hawaii, and I would fly to Dallas every three weeks because Verizon's headquarters is in Texas. And I would come back and I would notice that the business women on the plane had a carry on that was pink and white, and it was a Victoria's Secret bag. Okay? And I was like, that's it. That's the thing. Because in Hawaii at the time, Stefan, you may appreciate this as a pro marketer yourself. I was like, that's the market right there. Underwear. Because women who comprise 52% of the state of Hawaii had to buy their underwear on the mainland. They had to fly somewhere else to get proper under things. And we all generally wear underwear, okay? And I said, that's it. I'm going to do it. So I did all this market research. I looked at the SEC filings for Victoria's Secret. They had no plans to come to Hawaii or Alaska. They considered it to be international. And I was like, okay, I got a three year. In three years, if I can just get ahead of them, I'm going to establish a brand locally. And if they do come, it'll be another option versus competition. So I had this whole plan, so I did it. I mortgaged my house, I built the first retail store. I honestly didn't think of myself as, oh, I'm going to have this retail empire, this real estate empire. But once I opened the store, like in less than 10 months, we were already doing a couple million dollars in sales in one store. I couldn't just all the logistics, all the inventory, all the shopping that I had to do and then obviously, like, build a team, a retail team. And. And then I had an online presence and the media started calling me because it was my only store in Hawaii. Like a local Expert on fashion. So I became this, like, fashion expert. And I was not a fashion expert, but they started calling me that. And then Oprah does a show on bra fitting and underwear. Like that same 10 months. And my business continued to just explode. So I started making more real estate investments and commercial properties and then building more stores. And then I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to go past Hawaii. Even though I was now at eight figure business in less than 18 months, it happened very fast, you know, from me leaving the corporate world to that. That was in 2006. So I was riding a high for a good two years until the recession happened. And pretty much everybody got obliterated, Especially if you were in. If you were in real estate or retail, which I was in both of those industries you basically got. If you didn't have deep pockets, wealthy friends, or a lot of cash reserves. All three of those, I didn't really have. You know, I had only my brain and my hustle, if you will. So anyway, that was the worst time of my life and the best time of my life, because in one, it felt like a month. It wasn't really a month because this was all leading up. My financial advisor advised me, hey, let's hold. Let's not expand. And I didn't listen to him because I was like, no, I can bet on myself. I know that I can get past these problems. But literally, Stefan, there were weeks that people didn't come into our stores, like, during the recession, like, not even one human being. So it was like a ghost town, right? And I didn't feel very smart. My ego was shattered, and I was very depressed. And I had to make the hard decision to file for both personal and business bankruptcy, which was so hard for me because I'm Asian. I didn't want my mom to know that this was happening. I didn't want my. I didn't want to be a bad role model for my kids. But anyway, fast forward. I really dove deep into, like, personal development and therapy, frankly. And I said, do I want to go back to get a job or do I want to continue being an entrepreneur? And I realized that my best bridge back to who I was was actually going back to Verizon, but not as an employee, but as a consultant. And that was the start of what my business is today, 12 years later, which was realizing that consultants, coaches, educators are way more respected than employees are, and that they needed me. They wanted me back. But I said, if you make me a consultant, I'll do it. And that was the start of my first company, Chemcom, after the retail and real estate debacle. And from then on, I've built three companies all in that space, in the services, consulting and education space. And yeah, we've done really well. And now I live in the San Francisco Bay area. And also our company works with a lot of startups and also some of the bigger companies. Verizon is still a client of mine, Stefan, all these years later, and they've literally paid my company over $25 million in the past 12 years. And the way that it's kind of cool to have, like, left because they pissed me off, and then now to be in a win win partnership doing what I do best, which is brand strategy and positioning and, you know, and creating experiences that convert. So that's. That's kind of like the long winding yarn.

No, I mean, it's amazing. And in some respects, I think that encapsulates the glories of entrepreneurship so much. And that idea of, you know, I don't think everyone should be an entrepreneur. Right. Some people are. Should be employees and that's the path. And that's awesome. But for those awesome.

Yeah.

Are entrepreneurial. The fact that you can go from an employee where you're doing big things, but, you know, being treated like an employee to leaving. And then now you looked at it as like a partner. Right. With the brand or the company. And the upside is so exponent so much exponentially higher. You know, it really kind of encapsulates the glory of entrepreneurship, but also the heartbreak and the pain. Right. Because of going through what you went through. So I guess, like, you know, I mean, I don't want to jump around too much, but I am curious because real estate today is like super, like, hot, right? There's so many people, like, doing real estate funds. There's like just, I don't know, a lot of people putting money into real estate. And obviously prices are really high with residential commercials a little more. But, you know, as someone who is a kind of like a trend identifier and, you know, predictor of the future sometimes. And what do you. Are you in real estate at all now these days? What do you think of, like, you know, where real estate's at today?

Absolutely. I mean, I'm. I had to kind of what I call heal the triggers that I had around that whole thing because of what I lost. And when I got my mind right again and got the right people around me because I already had my, again, expertise and experience, but I had lost my Confidence, right. It got shaken. And so once I could build that back up again, I still knew that real estate was always a good bet. My biggest problem was that I was over leveraged. And so that's the first thing. So absolutely, I think real estate, generally speaking, is a good bet. And if you think like an investor instead of an owner, right. You're going to do better in real estate. And when I say that, I'll give you an example. You know, especially during the pandemic, what's interesting is like the cost of lumber is fucking nuts right now. Like, you know, the construction industry is booming. People thought during the pandemic that the economy was going to fall apart. And I actually specifically said I don't think it's going to because the difference between now and 2008 is the digital world, okay? So there is other, there are other ways to make income. Therefore, other industries can survive and thrive like construction, real estate, etc. Because let's face it, the pandemic did a favor to that industry. It made people want to reinvest their equity into other properties, into improvements on their home, to increase the value of their home, because they're bored. They didn't know what to do for those months that we were really in lockdown. And obviously different states had different rules. But during the heart of the lockdown, where most of America or the world really was locked down, it caused a constraint that worked for the industry. And I already knew that was going to happen because of the fact that so much wealth has been built since 2008. So again, it was horrific for so many people. But those that were enterprising, and I'm not just talking about entrepreneurs, I'm talking about professionals and employees of companies who took their real estate asset if they didn't lose it and held, you know, and they, they were patient because real estate's a real, generally speaking, it's not a gamble game. It's a long term thing, just like a business in a way. And I think the other trend I'm seeing is people think I'm crazy when I said this, but I'm proof that it's true. Last year I said I'm going to stay in the more high markets and it's just like a premium offer, right? People said, dump California, dump Hawaii. Real estate's too expensive. And let's just put this way, it is too expensive here. It's ridiculous. Okay? I also, I really do, from a consumer perspective, it's really annoying. Okay? But from a business perspective, I've lived I just bought a house, another house in the Bay Area, and everybody told me, you're nuts. Everybody's moving to Austin, they're moving to Atlanta, they're moving to. And I said, I think those places are awesome. And I think those are very investable places too, because they're on the rise. So they're becoming premium, right? But it's not going to stop here because Silicon Valley is still the heartbeat of technology and it will be for a while. Even Elon Musk came back. He was mad about the lockdown. He came back to California because he has so much infrastructure here that the trade off isn't worth it yet. He's going to expand and do his thing, right? I mean, that's what billionaires do. But point is, is that I've been living in this house. I bought a house four months ago in the San Francisco Bay Area. I bought it obviously high because it's a seller's market, like way too high. Everybody said, you're going to lose your, you're going to lose your shit. You're going to like, you're going to have to stay in the house for 10 years before you even make any equity. And four months, this house, this house is up 240k in four months. And I bought it high. And here's the thing, Stefan, I do believe. Is it going to dip down again? Sure, it's going to start to neutralize and soften, but I don't think it's going to go back to even the price I bought for it. I think it's going to have a right in the middle. And it's because I look at those markets and go, if that's where people are moving, that's where it's going to just continue to rise. I mean, I made my first money in real estate in my first house in Hawaii. It became a little cash cow for me because it wasn't like a fancy house, it was my first house. But Hawaii is an island, you know, and it's hard to actually own a single family home there. The median price of a home in Hawaii is like over 800,000 and it's like 50 years old. But land is scarce, right? So law of scarcity shows that there's always going to be more value there. So when people are like, I'm going to move to Montana or I'm going to move to South Dakota, I'm like, that's awesome. But you're probably not going to increase value on that property for a long time, and that's okay. It's a choice. I'm not judging, I'm just saying. So I actually like to bet my predictable money on high markets because they tend. You got to watch. Obviously you want to get a good expert in the local area to support you and be your partner in scoping out the properties and the value, et cetera. But I don't think real estate is going away. And here's the good news for all of us. There's a new real estate, right? There's the land, real estate, and then there's the online land. You know, there's a new address everybody can have called www.yoururl.com. and it's a. There's unlimited real estate available in the cloud, right? So now you can do both. And land value and cloud value have the same opportunity. So if you want to diversify, you should be in both. That's my take on it.

That's super. Yeah, totally. No, I agree. I mean, we bought in Encinitas, like San Diego area last summer and even that felt kind of high. But I was like, man, it was very hard at that point to get a mortgage too, right? Because it was like the heart of the bank. But we were able to do it and same thing. I mean, our house was about like $2 million, right? 2,055,000. And our neighbor in the same cul de sac who has basically the same house as us for like a 10 minute walk from the beach, like nice, you know, like same scarce real estate, right? There's only so many houses walking the beach in San Diego and North County, San Diego. He just listed his house for like 3.3 million and is like getting offers on it. Like I think, you know, like again, I'm not like it was more lucky knock, I'm a genius. But like, you know, that just the appreciation we saw on that. And that's what I told Laura. Like we may not move here full time, but it was like people want to live in coastal California. Like, I don't like, it's just, I just don't think it's going away. You can not like the politics, you can not like all this stuff. But at the end of the day, it's one of the most beautiful places in the world. And people with, especially on the high end with properties, people who have money are always going to want to have like a property like on, you know, essentially a Mediterranean coast, but within like, you know, a couple of hours from anywhere in the U.S. absolutely.

It's just like New York. If you love New York, you're gonna live in New York, you know, and you're gonna pay an absolute premium. And it's not beautiful like California. And I don't say that to offend anybody in New York, but you know what I mean by beautiful, like the coastal thing, but like it's always gonna go up, you know, because it's New York City and it has its vibe and it has its culture and it has its brand. Like, so Encinitas area, that's a brand. Like people are attracted to that area. Encinitas is a very entrepreneurial, slash wealthy, affluent. If you want to be around those people, you're attracted to that brand. And so I always say, like, the United States is a brand. The country itself is a brand. That's why everybody wants to come here. Even though we're wild, wild west. Lately, especially with the pandemic, whatever political stance or whatever you have, it's like people still want to come to America because we branded ourselves the land of the free. And so that's why brands matter, because ultimately that's what we trust. And I think that even with real estate, you choosing Encinitas is smart because like you said, it's never going to go down. So you're good.

Yeah, I know. I feel, I feel great about it and I want more real estate, but I agree that every time I see someone get screwed, it's because they over leverage themselves, right? Like every single time. Well, I feel like you're such a professional because you're giving me these amazing sort of transitions and segues because going into the brand side of things, I mean, what this is gonna be, I guess, kind of maybe a vague question, but what makes a great brand, right? What are the pillars or cornerstones of a great brand? Like, as far as you see it?

Well, of course I have a framework around it, but. And I'm writing my first book on what I call the master brand method, and it's coming out early next year. So I'm super excited about that. So there are five pillars that make what I call a brand a master brand, right? And that is archetypes, audience aesthetics, activation and amplification. So if I can just go a little bit under that. And what makes a brand a great brand is looking and filtering their strategy through these pillars is really what it is. So the archetypes sounds kind of woo or whatever, but obviously again, you're copywriting and marketing pro Stefan, one of the best in the game. And so you know that basically marketing is the science of human buying behavior, right? It's really psychology. And so the archetypes part of the Pillar is based on Carl Jung's philosophy on how we as humans behave and react and respond to symbology, to characters, to Personas that influence and motivates, made us to make decisions. And so I have this entire archetype assessment that I developed. I don't know if you know this. My first job was as a junior copywriter at Ogilvy back in the day. Yeah, my first job out of college, I worked in Ogilvy San Francisco. And I kind of alluded to that when I said I got really good advice early in my career. So what it was was this woman, Maria was the general manager of Ogilvy's office. And she was like 33. I was 22 and I thought she was so frickin cool. I was like, she had two young kids. When her husband used to come to lunch at break time, she seemed to like him a lot. And I was like, she was so smart. And I was like, I want to have her job in 10 years. So I asked her, if I want to be you in 10 years, what do I have to do? And she told me this, this is going to get back to archetypes, I promise. But she told me that, she goes, if you want to be the best in your craft, but you also want to get paid more and you want to elevate, take all the projects no one wants. She was like, take every project, every initiative and volunteer to be the lead on it. And I was like, am I not going to become a doormat if I do that? She goes, no. She goes, you're going to. People are going to be so happy that you took it on. And then when you're doing it, go all in and show how smart you are. Do your thing. And so at an early age in the world and in copywriting, which is the heart of all marketing, really, my copy moves the world, right? She gave me such great advice to how I ascended the corporate ladder so fast. And I still take that advice now. It's really one of the things I do. But it's where I learned about archetypes too, is my point. We had the Coca Cola account, which obviously multi billion dollar brand, one of the big. Actually, Coca Cola, of all the brands in the world, has the highest brand equity globally because you can put sugar anywhere in the world, okay? You may not get a WI fi connection in Tibet or whatever or in Timbuktu, but you can get sugar there, okay? So anyway, back then, this was the early 90s I know I'm aging myself now, but this is the early 90s, and we had the billion. We had a billion, billion dollar marketing budget for Coca Cola's advertising. A billion dollar fucking budget. And that was so big for me, like, you know, again, like this young. I didn't know who I wanted to be yet. I was a business major. I thought I was going to be an attorney. That didn't happen. And then so I accidentally got this job at Ogilvy, and I didn't know if I wanted to be a copywriter, but I was like, really junior copywriter stuff and really were like, running coffee for this. The big copywriters and the. And the account execs, right? But so I got to sit in those rooms when they would battle, basically. And it like a copy and marketing strategy battle in an ad agency is fucking sexy, okay? It's like pitting Pepsi against Coca Cola, you know, And. And they started talking about archetypes that, you know, Coca Cola was a muse archetype and Pepsi was a ruler archetype. And how could Coca Cola continue to maintain dominance even though Pepsi was a ruler brand? Now, you guys might all be listening, going, what the hell is she talking about? Basically, archetypes are again, this model that Carl Jung made up, he wasn't a brand strategist or a business guy. He was talking about human behavior. But brand strategists use archetypes to determine the Persona of the brand, right? So in this case, Pepsi being a ruler brand. Ruler brands are all about being like the leader. They have a lot of swagger. They are, like, seen as the CEO types and definitely celebrity kind of brands, right? So American Express, Mercedes Benz, Donald Trump. These are ruler brands, okay? Very like glitzy, glamoury, Pepsi kind of at the time and still does. That's the time when they were hiring Cindy Crawford and like, Britney Spears and Michael Jackson to do all their. That's how they were selling Pepsi, to try to, like, eat some of the market that Coca Cola dominated. Now, Coca Cola, on the other hand, is a muse archetype. Now, brands that are muse archetypes, you would think that they're soft because muse archetypes are about childlike wonder, okay? But they use their archetype very advantageously and always have. I don't know if you know this stuff, and you probably do again, but I don't know. But, you know, Coca Cola invented Santa Claus. Do you guys all know that? They actually created the Persona of Santa Claus because Santa Claus is the most nostalgic character in the Western world they needed. So they adapted the story of St Nicholas and they were the first to create an actual advertisement that had this fat white man with a red and white suit at Christmas. So they basically brandjacked, I call it Jesus, because they were like, well, let's carry the character that we're gonna affiliate with our brand. And so also, like, the polar bears, if you know, the Coca Cola advertising and that polar bear campaign, I was a part of that back in the early 90s. Yeah. And it was like, polar bears are going extinct, and they're sweet, and the little baby polar bears are so cute. But I don't know if you guys all know this, but polar bears are the most vicious of all fucking bears. They will hunt humans who are taking pictures of them. So it's pretty funny, right? But why did they choose polar bears? Because they're white and they can put a red scarf on their neck and it would look like a Coca Cola can. It's all strategy, right? They dominate. Why does Coca Cola dominate even over Pepsi? Because they do their archetype better than Pepsi does. Right. And so that's archetypes. I wanted to give some examples. Okay? So I've infused that same model into the way that I strategize with our clients, whether they are business, small business owners, or now, you know, I work with the bigger companies too, still to do their strategic planning and their launch strategy for the upcoming three, four years. We use the same stuff because it's all the same, right? Second is audience. I think that's pretty obvious. Who's your avatar? Where's the market, you know, that you're hitting? And what is the language that you're speaking? Are you speaking the same dialect as them? And if not, are you teaching them how to speak your dialect? Right. And so a great brand has a common language with their audience. That's through their stories, that's through their product naming, that's through their copywriting ability. Really, you know, the way to reach them both on all the sensory levels. So that audiences. Second pillar, third pillar, is aesthetics. Now, a lot of people think of building a brand as the logo, the website, the, you know, all the assets, visual assets of the brand. That is not as potent if you don't. I say that the archetypes plus the audience are the two sides of the coin that pay you. So aesthetics should be derived from what the archetype of the brand is. And the audience is like the marriage between them and that they're in a functional relationship, and that determines Your visual build. I get this question a lot, so I'm going to answer it around, well, does that mean like I shouldn't create a logo when I start my business or whatever? I'm like, no, create a logo, but just don't be married to it, don't be attached because it's going to change. I mean, I don't know if any of you guys saw Apple's first logo, but it was horrible. Like it's literally frickin Sir Isaac Newton under a frickin tree. It's like a hand drawn logo and he has an apple tree over his head. And I can't believe Steve Jobs approved that thing, but it showed that he did not have cute taste in the beginning. Okay. And that he evolved. So Starbucks has changed their logo multiple times. So they've done it based on the market and who they have become culturally and all of that. So aesthetics is the third pillar. Four pillars, activation, AKA marketing. How do you market the brand? Because marketing creates branding. Right? Marketing creates a brand. It lets people know how they can be helped by the product, the service, the offer. Right. So activation is basically the go to market strategy for a brand. And that's their way of constantly activating their brand in the marketplace. And then finally amplification is how they really establish their leadership, both in the team. So amplification is like scaling. So how does a company go from a local market to a regional market to a national market to a global market is part of that process. You know, what platforms, what partnerships, what type of team, what kind of leadership do you need to move the brand forward? And so these are the five pillars that we work with our clients to work out so that they can have a bigger and better strategy and create not just a brand, but a master brand.

Awesome. And so when a brand comes to you. That was amazing. I'm like taking notes. I can't wait to watch the replay and just. I gotta digest. It was a lot, but in a good way.

Sorry. I'm like word vomiting.

I want to say as a word vomiter myself, I appreciate it, but I don't think you were vomited. It was super valuable. Yeah, I guess, I would guess that different brands are at different stages and phases in their journey. And so you know, their focus would be on different parts of this sort of framework. Right. Like is there certain like places where you just sort of see. I guess let's look at for my audience which is like, you know, there's freelancers and then it's a lot of businesses that are doing seven to like mid eight figures, right? That's a big range. But so let's say a business is doing like 10 to 20 million. Let's use that as an example for a business like that, like a year. Is there a common out? Is there like one place or certain places where you tend to see them struggling the most? Is it sort of like. And what, oh, what is that place?

That's. It's in the fifth, it's in the fifth pillar. So let me just name them again because I see in the chat people want to know the pillar. So it's archetypes, audience aesthetics, activation and amplification. So once you hit, I say like the problems that are the challenges at eight figures are really in the amplification pillar, right? Because you've done all the work to prove, you know, that your brand is useful, that it's helped people. It's obviously got the receipts or the money to back it up. The company has made revenue, significant revenue. Right? And, and so if you're an eight figure company, your biggest gap is amplification and probably tuning up your activation methods so more platforms, for example. So activation is marketing, remember? So it could be like for example, with Copy Accelerator, you know, you and Justin have really snapped in a powerful platform which is live events to serve your clients, right? And that's an actual. You guys added that to already what you were doing through your individual pursuits as well as your collaborative pursuits, through your email marketing, through your consulting services, you know, all those types of things and you decided to do that. You also decided to do an incredible show like this Road to a Billion and have these great conversations, which is basically a podcast, podcast, also a video cast. That's another activation point you added into the mix now that you're an eight figure company, right? To expand the message, let people know and signal to the market, hey, we're having bigger conversations here, elevated conversations here, right? You've created, you have now a pr, you've invested in pr, public relations. That's a big amplification strategy, right? Of, you know, how do you amplify both the personal brand of the leader? Because there's three types of brands. There's a personal brand, a company brand and an offer brand. Okay, so your offer is Copy Accelerator. The mastermind, Stephan Georgi is the personal brand, right? And then the company brand is the copy accelerator company. And then you have multiple companies, right? I know that too, Stefan. So it's like being able to decide in the activation part of it, what's like activation 2.0 for this company now, like, what type of marketing things are we going to invest in that will bring us to the next level? Because you've already mastered email marketing, you've mastered customer conversion for it to get you to this point. Now, what are those injection points? That's what activation is about. And then amplification is working on the leader, working on Stefan, you know, that Steve. Like, working on the Steve Jobs of copy Excel, you know, copy. That's you. You know, it's like, how do I work on him? And what type of team and systems do I need to implement around me to scale this thing to the vision I have now? I would like to bring it back to, like, if you're just starting out, you're a solopreneur, you're a freelancer, where do you need to focus? Well, you need to focus on the front end. You need to focus on archetypes and audience, because you got to get clear on why would they want to work with you. Why do people drink Coke versus Pepsi, right? They choose Coke. And this is a true. This is science, this is study, this is fact. Because all I do is study this stuff for a living, is they choose Coke because Coke makes us feel like a child through their advertising, through the way they inject influence into our lives. Polar bears, Santa Claus. Have a Coke and a smile. It's supposed to make you feel happy, but also, like, it's like literally killing you. Like, it's literally like sugar in your body. But still we want it. You know, Pepsi is more glamorous, right? It's why. I don't know if you know this, Stefan, but in Las Vegas, it's the only city in the United States that is an extreme, exclusive partnership with Pepsi. That's why you can't buy Coke on the Strip, in any of the casinos. Joe, go to the casinos. And it pisses me off because I hate Pepsi. Just all that, y' all know. Like, I actually. It's like my. Because also Pepsi, like, the CEO of Pepsi ruined Apple. And I was like, I have this whole. I have, like, I have stuff on it. Okay? So. But don't get me wrong, I respect Pepsi. And the last CEO of Pepsi was a woman of color, which is really cool. They've been very evolutionary. But they ruin everything. Like, they ruin KFC because Pepsi owns Kentucky Fried Chicken. They own Taco Bell. So, like, I'm like, you guys have messed those brands up. But anyway, I've got opinions since I'm a brand geek. But anyway, if you're starting out back to that, you really got to get clear on why would a customer choose you? Even if you're a freelancer and you want to get, let's say, three to five new customers and just have that steady income and make sure that you can have some predictable revenue coming in. And then you want to get clear on why do they trust you? Because brands are chosen because they're trusted. And trust comes more from consistency than it comes from even being glamorous. And so that's where I would focus. And then in between those two hemispheres is aesthetics, which is your logo, your online assets, they'll all evolve as your brand grows. But don't spend a ton on that so stuff until you've made at least a million bucks. You know, be more in the craft, you know, of your work. Like, get fucking good being a copywriter. Like, be the best fucking copywriter ever. Because that's my other prediction. Even though it's. It shouldn't even be a prediction because it's always been true. But it seems like in the past decade, Stefan, because of digital marketing and everything seems fast, people have lost the craft of the craft. But at the end of the day, a great brand is the best at what they fucking do, right? So if you're a copywriter, again, just be the best and work on that. And you got to make mistakes to become the best. You know, no one becomes a master before they're an apprentice. And apprentices jobs are to be at the craft every day. That's why there's a difference between a brand and a master brand. Because the master is the person who's been in the factory or in the studio or in the, you know, in the kiln, crafting the work so that people want it. And so no matter what, I don't care if you're like stage one or stage eight, people always appreciate craft. And that's actually what will make you kind of future proof, recession proof. Because if you're the fucking best, people still want to come and work with you. You know, I always said, like, if the pandemic did make the whole economy fall apart again like it did in 2008, and of course I got a little trigger because I was like, oh, you know, it came up in me. I was like, at the end of the day, if I needed to write copy again, I could, you know, I could. Because copywriting, to me in marketing is totally recession proof. Like, it is the number one most wanted skill in marketing. So for those of you listening in, you picked the Right path, I will say, you know, because it truly is. It's bulletproof. Like, copywriting is bulletproof if you keep getting better at it.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, there's so much good stuff there. I constantly am hammering that same point about get really good at your craft. Like, people come in, I want to get clients, I want to make more money. I want to do this and that. They're, like, awesome. Easiest way to do all of that is get really good at copywriting. Because if you get really good at it and you get good results for your clients that do hire you, then they're going to hire you for more things and you can charge more and they'll give you referrals and you can post, like, online about your wins and talk about them. It's like, everything becomes so much easier when you're really good. I mean, you know, it's not just a copy, I think it's not like a kids these days, like, like kind of like old man rant. But it's like, you know, there's a level of entitlement for. That comes into play for a lot of stuff these days where. And maybe it's always been that way. I don't. I don't know. But, you know, people come in and they kind of. They want to get some mastery by. While skipping the apprenticeship. And like, you can. Copy starter is about shortcutting or accelerating your. Your path.

Right.

But you still have to go through that. You still have to go through the bumps. You still have to, like, you know, like, we've had people who join our mastermind, and like, they're making, like, you know, $3,000 a month, like, working in, like, a grocery store. And they're like, want to, you know, but they're dedicated to copy. And like, it's awesome. But then it's like, oh, I didn't. I'm not getting jobs. And you're like, well, what about these jobs? Well, they're only paying $100 per email, and I think I should, you know, make 200 and like, dude, like, sure, great. But, like, right now you're trying to make money as a copywriter. Someone's gonna pay you $100 per email. Like, do those get experience, like, get good at it? And then, you know, it becomes very easy to charge $250 or $300 or $500. So that doesn't happen all the time. But, you know, you just see it where people kind of want to, like, yes, you can move faster, but you still need to kind of get great at your skill. It's just, like, so fundamental. I mean, imagine if Tom Brady had never practiced, right? It wouldn't be Tom Brady. It's like there's a million metaphors you can use.

Absolutely. I mean, I just gotta get snaps to that. Everybody should be giving snaps to Stefan for that. Because if that's an old man rant, I'm an old lady ranting with you. Because it is crazy to me how it goes. Again, I think it's the digital expansion. We have to blame a little bit for that, because no one uses critical thinking as much as they used to. Like, you can Google everything. You can find a. You know, we all have our beliefs, values, and opinions, and. But if they're informed, I think they're useful. Right? But it's like this. This. This quickness to again be called a master when you're not yet. And there's no shame in that. There used to be such honor in being an apprentice of the work. Like, you know, who would say that Luke Skywalker is a loser? He's not a loser. Like, he wasn't a master until he got way past even getting his TIE fighter out of the swamp. You know what I mean? Like, he wasn't a ma. Like, Yoda was laughing at his ass. Did you guys see the last series where Yoda, even when he appears to Luke and he's old, and Luke's like, what do I do here? You know? And Yoda's like, you still don't know what's wrong with you. Like, aren't you a Jedi Master now? You know? Point is, is that we're always. There's always an opportunity for mastery, I guess, is my point. And actually, the moment that you think you're a master, that's when you got to go back to becoming a little bit more in the work, because that's when you're more susceptible to failing. And I wanted to kind of bring back that lesson from Maria that I shared earlier, my mentor. And bringing that back to Copy Accelerator. And what you guys do in this environment, in this community, is you have to be willing to be a little messy, right? Take on some mess, like she said to me, take on the projects that you don't think you want, but go get your reputation as being handler, as a doer, as somebody who can get shit done, right? And then on the other side of it, you need a mentor. And she was. For me, without that advice, early in my career, I might have still played the whole, what do I do in this world? I'm grateful that I opened my mouth when I did and asked her that simple question. If I want to be you in 10 years, how do I do that? And I think all of you listening, Stefan is obviously a mentor for all of you. If you want his life in ten years or less. Right. Is the goal, then what do you do? You got to do the work. Because we eat our own dog food here, you know, and anybody else who says that they didn't have to train in the entrepreneurial Olympics to become gold medalists in it, they're bullshitting you. Like, they're lying. You know, it's all superficial bullshit, and I'm allergic to that stuff. I'm like, okay, yeah. So you don't get me wrong, can you make a million bucks in a year, your first year out? It's possible, but I don't bet on outliers. I bet on what's more probable, because outlier marketing is a. It's what we do for a living. We paint the picture of outlier, but to actually be successful, we can't think like consumers. We have to think like business people. Business people understand that outlier marketing is a tactic for marketing, but not to run a business. You know, if I always bet on an outlier, I'd be broke, you know, and so just hopefully that helps a lot of people here, because I think it is. It's, like, so hard nowadays because it doesn't mean, you know, the programs you're invested in aren't shortcuts. In fact, when I came onto this online world, I want to share this. I. Someone talked me into doing an education company. I just want you guys to know I have no interest in having masterbank Institute be a campus for building brands for entrepreneurs. I was like, no, I'm good, because now I have this company that helps big companies, and we were making great income, and I had a really good life again, I was like, I don't want to risk that or complicate my life. But being an entrepreneur, I wanted to meet more people. I wanted to help more people. And I saw how entrepreneurs, frankly, so many quit. 97% of entrepreneurs quit in the first three years. I said, well, I think I can help with that, so I'll just try it. And what I did was I gave away my program to 100 people, and I basically worked with them for free for three months. When I first started Master Brand Institute, because I wanted to test my framework. I wanted to see if it would actually work, and I gave myself a constraint. Three months. I Wasn't going to do it forever so that I'm not all victimy and shit and being like, people are taking stuff for me from free, you know, like that $100. Like they're only paying $100. I sold that program. So I did 100 free, basically consulting packages for 90 days with people I felt I could really help. And in those 90 days, when I asked them, would you like to sign on and work with our company for a year for $30,000, every single person signed up. So 30,000 times 100 is a lot of money. Right. And from there, that was seven years ago. I'd say at least half of those people are still in our hemisphere in terms of, you know, renewing. They've renewed in our group programs. They've done, you know, and the rest they've gone on their own, but they're wildly successful. Really proud of what we helped create together. And that's notice just because I have all these years of experience. I still entered this space because it was a new thing for me, using my same principles, the five principles that I mentioned, to build a master brand and then ate my own dog food. And now I've been able to focus more on just like Stefan on the activation and amplification side. Like, how do I scale that? How do I keep growing that so I can focus on the right things? But it doesn't happen where you're like, mastery of all the pillars at once. You got to follow the process, dude.

Yeah, I love that, John. I feel like you're my entrepreneurial spirit animal. Even with E Comm, for example. And I have an E Comm course that I soft kind of launched and did a really weird thing where I'm like, you can send me Bitcoin or buy my coin on BitCloud.

That was cool. I saw you doing that.

Yeah, it actually went. It worked out quite well. But even before then, it was like I wanted to work with more E comm companies because I'm like, look, the Dr. Elements are directly applicable. It's like so much of it. It's like conversion optimization, like copy, but whatever. And so I did the same thing. I posted, okay, I'll work for you for free. And I did it for several people. Got a bunch of case studies, got a bunch of big wins. And it's like, here I am having sold like a billion dollars worth of stuff, but I'm like, I know if I just come in and I'm like, hey, I'm an E commerce expert. People are like, well, are you like, what have you worked on recently? Right? Like, don't have the track record. So I had no problem going back and being like, I'll just do this for free. So I get the case studies, the samples, examples, because then when I sell this course, way more likely to, you know, sell a ton of them if I want to do consulting or get paid, big packages, all these things. So I love that you did that as well. And I think people, it is an ego thing. It's like, put your ego to the side, like, you know, and then the horizon for entrepreneurs, like, look at the longer horizon. It's like, I have to do a tiny little bit of like, work for free, like here. But then the horizon is that for the next like 10 years, I have this whole other stream of like, opportunities and revenue, right? Like, why would I not do that? And it's kind of same thing, what you did. It just makes so much sense.

It's genius, right? And I'm not trying to say that I'm a genius. I'm trying to say that I also do it for my own. I call it insurance. Like, because it's not just that I want this new thing because remember, I was a little kind of going, should I do this? Okay, if I'm going to do it, let's go back into the laboratory basically, and I'm going to give my services for free and see it. Because I wasn't just looking to make money post that trial period. I was also trying to decide, do I even want to do this? Right? And I think that is so valuable. We entrepreneurs tend to go, okay, this works, so therefore I should continue to scale it. Actually, sometimes just because something works, you can realize I did my best and I brought, and I did get great results. But I fucking hate this, so I should stop it. That's like also a huge, like, that's like paying yourself. I think forward, you think of it as free work. You're actually paying yourself in knowledge that, hey, I am actually good at this, but actually I hate it. Like, I don't want to work with clients or I don't, you know, whatever it is, whatever the story is. And it's coming from a place of real truth and fact versus just thinking about it or wondering, will I like this? You'll actually know if you like it, if you do the work. So there's so many benefits to just doing it the way that Stefan and I do it. And I would actually say that I bet most people who have eight plus figure individual businesses or have helped nine and 10 figure companies, like we both have, that's just the same process. And it's not sexy, but it works. And it's fast. If you get through it fast, you don't have to, like, do it forever. It's a constraint thing. Like, do it within the constraint and make it happen afterwards.

Yeah. I mean, even if you. And we'll make one last point and then we'll have a few other things to move to. But like, even, like John Mulaney, like the comedian, super successful, has become very successful, like, blew up, you know, Also been to rehab a few times recently and all that. But during the pandemic, he, like, took a job, like, writing for one of the late night talk shows. I forget which one it was. And he basically was like, you know, I don't think it was paying him a ton of money. The guy's making millions and millions and millions at this point for stand up and all this other stuff. But he was like, kind of like, I want to keep the ax sharp. I want a challenge. I want to even. It's just an interesting example of, again, somebody at the top of his craft over here, but he's like, yeah, like, I want to go back and do this so that I. I stay sharp. It's really good to, I think, switch things up and then and just, you know, be fluid, I guess. Right. In a way, I think there's value to that, but.

Oh, my God, so much value.

Um, okay, so we're gonna. If you have a question, pop in the Q and A if anyone has questions. None are there yet, but we'll see if anyone comes in. Before I want you to. I'm curious about your maybe three predictions for the coming year because you're, you know, awesome at doing that, and I love that stuff. Before I do that, though, I like to not wait till the end. So for people who are, you know, with us now, or people who are going to watch the replay on YouTube or listen on itunes when it comes out, what are the best ways for people to connect with you if they want more Gen Chem in their lives? Like, what do they. What do they do?

Awesome. Well, thank you for that. So the first is, you know, I like to hang out on Instagram in terms of, like, DMing and chatting back and forth. I do not chat on Facebook, y'.

All.

Facebook. Again, I only go there for. Because I have to, I guess, because that's part of my business stuff. But if you want to, like, hang out and chat or you have a question, I'm Happy to do that over at Instagram. So I'm Jennifer on Instagram. My website is Jennifer chem.com and if it's okay, Stefan, when I talked about archetypes, I have this diagnostic. And it's not some floofy clickbait quiz, okay? It's an actual assessment of what your archetype influence mix is, which is your. The archetype pillar. And so you can go to brandarchetypequiz.com, take it, and then on the back end, if I see you come through, if you do it today, we'll make sure that we get you the free three reports because you'll get your dominant archetype. You won't get the other two. But I'll tell my team to make sure that anything that comes through today to give you guys all three reports, and that's going to be kind of the basis of the Persona of your brand, even as an individual freelancer, to use in your own marketing of who you are. Right. And your value to. To other people. And then hopefully that supports you, because I think it really supports copywriters or anybody in marketing to better communicate who they are. So that's brandarchetypequiz.com and it's not, again, a quiz. It takes about. It takes about 40 minutes to do. So that's why it's not some type of clickbaity thing. And please do it not inebriated or sleepy, because you want to get the right results and you want to take the quiz from where you are today, not your future vision, but today who you are. Because that's another little tip. You want to build your brand from today. Kind of like when we were talking about the testing, we got to be able to authentically come with what we already have, and then we can build upon that. So if you follow those recommendations and taking it, you'll get a good result and we'll give you those reports. So that's awesome.

Thank you for doing that. Yeah, I mean, I really strongly agree. I talk about this with freelancers all the time. I don't look at it in the terms of, you know, brand archetype, but maybe I will start looking at it that way. But even just like unique differentiators, right? Because, like, hey, I'm a copywriter. Like, you know, do you want to hire me to write stuff? Like, like, what is that? What does that do for you? Right? But like, so many people have interesting stories. Like, I, you know, one woman who's like a doctor for like 30 years moved into copywriting because she, like. And it's like, well, you know, you can. If you want to do health copy, come and be like, hey, like, I'm an actual doctor. Like, that's very rare, right. Immediately you have this, like, perfect.

That's hot. Yeah.

Computer engineer who, like, you know, it's like a programmer but hates programming. He's good at it, but, like, doesn't like it. We would copy say, hey, I get both, like, sort of like the. The creative side and, like, the, you know, more digital side. Like, I can do. I can do both because I can straddle the line. I'm like, I'm very logical because I'm a programmer. I applied to my copy, but I also have, like, the creative side. It's like everybody's got that interesting sort of, like, hook, right? And. But I think, you know, going deeper of what you just what you said and looking at your brand archetype can be really valuable because people do. They don't. They hire based on skill for sure. Right. If you suck a copy, they're not going to hire you. But then it gets to a plateau where a lot of people are pretty similar and they're not sure who to hire. And so they're going to basically hire. Just, like when choosing a brand or a company, like, your stories win and you hire based on stories. And so the story you tell about yourself and who you are is so valuable. So I really recommend anyone who is with us here today or he's going to watch the replay or an iTunes, go to brand archetypequiz.com and do it. I think you made me and Justin. Justin, I. Do it, or you may do something like I did.

I did. I should look it up. I can't remember what. I can't remember what y' all are because I can't remember everybody's.

But, yeah, I know. I don't remember either, but I remember being like, oh, this is super powerful. And it was like, very in depth because say, I'm a guest, probably some silly thing that's part of her onboarding. There's like 45 minutes later, and I'm going super deep. And, like, it was like, really? Yeah. Very powerful.

So thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think we have two questions before we get to that. One thing I just want to hear is. Yeah. What are some. I guess maybe top two or three kind of predictions for the coming year, if you're comfortable making those Again, not. We won't hold to you, but I just. I know you do that Sometimes. And it's fun to hear what you, what you, what you see. I'm very curious.

Yeah. So it's interesting because two years ago I predicted this one and not knowing the pandemic was coming. I didn't predict the pandemic, but I did say that there was going to be some type of depression. And when I say not a full depression, but depression in society coming up, when in 2019. And I said in order to combat that, we're going to need to invest in experiences over things. Meaning of course, like this last year, the industries that did totally get rocked in a bad way are like travel, hospitality, airline, blah, blah, blah. But analog is the way to go. People have been isolated for so long that I actually think the digital landscape is not going to change. The good news for the pandemic, what it did is created this mandatory adoption of digital consumption. People who were not wanting to adopt digital education, training, anything, right. Or even buying things E commerce, they were more interested in buying things retail. Right. The pandemic helped level the playing field. So thank you pandemic for that because if you are digital, bet on that horse and you need to have a balanced portfolio. Back to the leverage we said don't be over leveraged because the thing is people are fucking exhausted from digital because we've been forced to. So you need to have what I call belly to belly experiences as part of your platform and doesn't mean you have to put on big workshops or conferences like even with like what Stefan and Justin are doing over at Copy Accelerator with their live event. But that's an example. And by the way, I hope all of you, if you're copywriters, you should go to that event because that's like the premier event for skills training and connection and even getting clients. So I mean, you should be in the room. Don't hide out is my point. Because the people that are actually present and seen and with other people and have a leveraged business, both digital and analog are going to be the winners in the long run because again of the reasons of what we've just exited. So that's not going to stop, at least for three years. So even with AI, even with different forms of currency like bitcoin, et cetera, those are outside of this strategy of having a leveraged portfolio. You need analog and you need digital. Even if analog just means that you personally are being in the right rooms with other people, that you are making that part of your traffic plan like, oh, part of my traffic plan is actually to talk to Other humans, even if you're introverted or whatever. A lot of people don't know this about me, but I'm an introvert posing as an extrovert. I prefer alone time, a book, and corners. Okay. But I get so pumped up around marketing, branding, and strategy. That's why it appears that I'm extroverted. Same thing for you when you're around like minded people. So my prediction is for over the next few years, that's where the investment in your business should be the most. And I know that sounds kind of like Stefan old school because, like, everybody says that, but it's even more important now because you can't hide out on the Internet. You have to. People are like, they don't trust anything on the Internet too, because of all the political stuff, like who knows what's right and conspiracies and all that. So the only way you get trusted is really like, let's create a real relationship. So that's really important. Number two, E Commerce.

Before you go ahead. Because I've been thinking about this a lot as well. I totally, totally, totally agree. Like, I thought about I'm j. Being on like a. With a supplement company that's already pretty scaled up, so I'm not sure if I'll do it with this one. But I had been toy with the idea of creating a new supplement brand, but even with that brand.

No, you're stuck.

Oh, my bad.

You're not the only one who's not stuck.

I'm here. Can you hear me? Oh, no.

Oh, shucks.

I can hear me.

Okay, so you're not stuck. Yes, you're back now.

Okay. Thank God.

So the last time I heard, what I heard, just to let you know, was you're JV Ing with the supplement. That's all we heard.

Yeah. Okay. Supplement company, they're already doing mid eight figures. I don't know if what I'm about to say would apply to that, but I thought about starting a supplement brand and I. But my thought processing with that brand was like, essentially it would actually just be like a front for like an event and experience company. So basically, like, it'd be all around lifestyle and it would do stuff like rent a castle in like, Scotland and like, you know, if you're a subscriber or customer of the brand, you. You can come and it's like, you know, TED Talks slash, like parties at night or whatever it is. Because I probably go after this like, millennial type demographic, right? Or like having people come to Vegas, but just like, like Kind of like a, like a, like even for like a supplement company, I feel like it would actually I would build it around like events and things like that that sort of create this community aspect and I think that would be really powerful. I still might do it.

Oh my God, you're reading my mind. Like we're like mind melding like Star Trek. This is crazy because that was prediction too. Was using E commerce as a front for experiences. I'm not even joking. I'm not joking. That's all you were like, oh, can I say this? And I'm like oh yeah, sure. Because I was like number two. E commerce and E commerce in a different way, like creating experiences melded with E commerce is like the next level. And so you just fucking said that. So hello, go do it. Because it's amazing I even want to invest or partner. Let's talk offline. So that was my second one which is again E commerce adoption obviously with the pandemic is way up. But also it's the era of the micro brand. You can create a supplement party, for example, supplement product that is very niche specifically for very specific things or demographics and you can crush. And I think that's a bigger opportunity than like trying to get. You don't want to go after the big guys, you know, they have the shelf space already, you know, you're not going to go after like you know, I can't even think of a supplement right on the shelves because I only buy micro brands now. But the world is in the micro brand, you know, it's not in for those types of things especially right? Anything health, wellness and then you pair them with like these experiences. So that's why I told all my clients who are in kind of the travel and hospitality world. I said just be patient because you will have so much money. It's happening right now. They are exploding with where they had again a little bit of a depression for a little while. So it's going to. This is actually, this has been like a, it's like a catapult. Like the pandemic actually is making you more valuable. So just be patient. I know it's scary as hell but just be patient. So the third thing just to kind of wrap up is definitely, I think actually I'm going to blunt off like the micro brand movement. So whether it's E commerce or service based or whatever, micro brands can become master brands. They're the new master brands. You know, master brands are like the Coca Cola, the Apple, the whatever and we model those to become omnipresent in our audience's mind. Now, micro brands are really the soup du jour, if you will. Right. Everybody wants that. They want to feel a special thing. And there's always a story to tell around a micro brand. That's what makes a micro brand great, is really the story they tell. And so becoming great at that storytelling. If you want to build a micro brand, even if it's a micro freelance craft that you have around copy, focus deeply on that. And that's where the money and the impact is.

Yes. Awesome. I love that. And I agree with everything you said so strongly. I mean, and even on the AI side, I think about this because people freak out about AI and copywriting, and is AI going to make my copywriting obsolete? And I don't think anytime, you know, anytime soon. I'm like. I'm like, look, maybe at the very, very, like, minimum, it's like five years. It's probably way longer when I say it's five years even. And I'm like, all right. So if you spend the next year or two getting really good, and then you sort of could spend the three years after that making, you know, six figures, like per year of, like, you know, like, writing for clients, or you can use that to start a brand or a company or business. So you grow to seven or eight or nine figures, and then, you know, like, five years is a long fucking time. And then let's say that is very, very minimum. Like. Like. And. But another thing with the experience stuff, right? Like, that's one thing that AI is not going to threaten. Right. AI is 100% with, like, the analog experience. And so I think that's one of the reasons. It's one of the most valuable places you can be because, you know, we're not. I can't like virtual reality. Like, sure. Like, eventually virtual reality gets so good that we're in a weird, like, Ray Bradbury novel. Like, sure. But, like, that's, again, quite a ways away. And I think, you know. Yeah. So I just. I love what you're saying. You're just. We're very on. On the same page of that gen. Yeah, it is awesome. Okay, cool. I think we have one question. It's from John Michael Williams, who says it is a bit long. So, John, I'm gonna let you come on and you can ask question. And after that, there are no more questions.

We'll wrap up.

But, John, come on. Here, I'm. Got you. Yeah. There you go. What's up, man?

Thank you so much, Stefan. Hey, and Ms. Kim, thank you. Thank you.

Hey, John Michael.

Hey.

So, okay, so my question. I've been mowing this over. So you were talking about archetypes and audience for us. I learned about copywriting about three years ago. Two and a half years ago. Died head. In the last year and a half, I've done exactly. I've been doing what you said, Stefan, like, just trying to get my skills up.

Every.

I only made $3,000 in a year and a half because I'm like writing emails for like $10 an email, you know, do like a week sequence for like 50 bucks. And like, I'm just. I built up, you know, a little, you know, I need to get some references and get my skill level up, practice what I was learning. So that's what I did. I just focused on my craft and that's what I'm doing now. Okay. So in April, I said, okay, that's, that's that I paid my dues so far. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go in a little bit. So April and May on the freelancing platform that I'm on, which is gonna lead to my question. The freelancing platform I'm on, I bumped my rate up, went to what I thought was a fair rate, locked in my project prices. Very fair. Like 600 bucks a sales page type stuff, you know. And in April and May, I made almost double what I did my first year and a half. Two years, almost two years or so, because I did a little bit of content mail writing when I first, first started, just to kind of like practice my writing and find my voice and stuff. Anyway, so my question is I really want to niche down. I want to niche down towards. I really want to help mental health professionals, psychologists, private therapists get into the digital space. And I want to leverage my copywriting to do that. So I know LinkedIn is going to be my strategy. I believe this is my thought process. LinkedIn is my strategy and to provide really valuable content towards that very specific niche audience. And I'm wrapping my head around all of the different details, but basically I'm just trying to figure out, is that strategy if you were to recommend to, like, your cousin what to do in this situation? He's barely spreading his wings. I have a couple agency clients now. I have, you know, a couple clients that I'm working on, so I have some regular income. Just the last couple of months that are starting to come in so I can breathe and focus on creating content and doing my own. Legion is the LinkedIn approach, legion approach. Is that something that you would recommend for someone like me at this time? Barely spreading my wings, but have started to make some traction in the last two months or so? Sorry, I'm all over the place.

I'm so sorry, Stefan. You want to jump in or you want me to.

I'd love to have you. Yeah. If you've got thoughts, I'd love to hear yours.

Okay, so, John Michael. Okay, first of all, I think I understand what you want, so I'm gonna. And stop me if I'm not, because I'm very direct. Okay? Because I believe that directness is a sign of love and it allows you to grow faster. First of all, I need you to stop couching yourself as, like, this newbie. Like, you're, You're. I hear in your voice, like, I've done this. And so all of that is true. But if you want to dominate, it's. I am a copywriter. I specialize in this. And so that mindset and that confidence of just claiming the craft. I am a copywriter. Okay? So that's the first thing. Because people buy confidence. They don't just buy consistency. Okay? So number two, do I smell the money in your pursuit of niching down to mental health practitioners? I feel like John Michael, just like Stefan, we're all in the same wavelength here. Because that would have been prediction four for me. I'm not bullshitting you. I actually wrote this in a Forbes article. Mental health is the number one niche for services these next three years. The reason is because of the fucking pandemic. You know what I mean? Everybody's mental. Like, we all are dealing with a lot of the things, even those that appear the most, frankly, personally confident or we've invested a lot in coaching or therapy or whatever. I have all those tools in my toolbox. But I still got very affected by the pandemic. I live in California, so the lockdown was a lot more for us. So, anyway, mental health, fantastic niche. And here's the thing about mental health, people, they don't know how to make money. They have no idea how to make money. Their mindset is, I just want to help people get through their mental health issues. So you coming in, you would be a very helpful resource for them. So if you approach them and said, I, you know, I have this package, let's try it out. And, you know, it's how you approach them, obviously a big thing. And then LinkedIn is the professional network. I've been telling all of my clients recently that if you're not on LinkedIn and you're not on YouTube. You're in the wrong place. Like, to me, they're the two most important platforms for the next. Whatever for pretty much forever. Facebook is mainly trash. And you know, and I'm not saying you guys are. And I have a lot of clients. We're only there because we have to be because it's become status quo. But in terms of growth potential, LinkedIn is the place to make professional connections. Because LinkedIn people are professionals on LinkedIn, so they understand being professionally engaged. Whereas Facebook is more consumer platform. Right. And they are being frankly, like. It's like what I call. It's not. It's. It's interruption marketing on Facebook. Right. Versus YouTube and LinkedIn are more like they're looking for you. So. Yes, I just wanted to answer. Check, check, check. Stefan, I don't know if you want to.

No, I think that was. That was great. I. Yeah. And I agree on the confidence side of it too, John. I mean, at this point, it's been a couple years. Like, I do agree. I mean, I think that, that bringing. Just challenging you to bring more confidence to yourself in pursuit. Because to Jen's point, people do buy confidence. Right. You know, if I'm a mental health service provider and you come and you're like, well, I'm kind of a copyright. I mean, you know, it's like, I'm like, well, I'm kind of maybe gonna hire you. Probably not. But if you're like, hey, like, I'm, you know, this is what I do. I'm passionate about it. I'm like, like one of the best at it. Like, you know, like, I talk about. Even with. Because I think a mistake a lot of copywriters will make when they're early on and they're pitching clients is they kind of talk about how I don't have much experience and I'm still learning and, you know, like, I don't think you have to come and be like, oh, I'm the. Like, I have. You have to lie, but you have to lie by your track record. But you don't need to like highlight and sort of point out like that, you know, you're sort of early on. I think, you know, you can just sort of walk that line and still have a lot of confidence. So I think that part was really important in addition to everything else Jen said.

Okay, thank you guys so much. I do. I find. I. Because, like Stefan, like in your last few emails, you know, you talk about it goes to the different things like sometimes you talk about like how you need to, at some point you need to charge what you're worth and then so I have a problem with like the imposter syndrome internally which I'm crashing through like now that I have a couple agency clients to see. John Michael copywriter like on the internal messaging and stuff like that pumped me up like, yeah, I am a copywriter. Like I paid my dues, I wrote, hand wrote, you know, countless of controls and things for, at 2 o' clock in the morning for a year. So like I, I'm working on that part of it and I totally get what you're saying. I don't necessarily present myself as, I don't think as unconfident with clients but I definitely have an issue like with trying to figure like that imposter syndrome because I have had some wins and they're usually they're a little bit for the E commerce but mainly for like the coaching space. But I mean I'm on a five to 10 year journey and I'm two or three years in. And I just remember Stefan, you put in your email a little while ago about how like you know this, like even you don't say like I'll crush that control, like let me show you what I can do. You're just like, well you know, let me see what I can do. And that really helped. I don't know, I'm figuring it out. But thank you guys so much. Thank you guys so much. I'm all over the place.

No, you're fine man. Thank you. I think you've got one last thing I'll say John, is you've got that good energy that comes through. I think there's certain people, you hear them talk and you just immediately kind of organically and authentically like them. I think it's a weird thing that you can't even quantify. I know some other people who have it too, but you have that. So I think you're going to be in, you know, going back to Jen's point on the analog side of it like you know, put yourself out there, get on calls with people, you know, put posts, make videos if you're comfortable doing that. I mean I think the more of that stuff you do and then just being yourself, I think you're going to see people respond really well to you.

Thank you guys.

Be yourself, that's the main thing.

Okay, I'm looking forward to that architecting. Last time I took something similar, I was like a nurturer. But I love Karl. I Can't wait. Thank you for letting that free for us too.

Yeah, yeah, check it out. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, John. Appreciate your question. Sweet. Okay, cool. So those are only question, but it's a good one from John. So Jen will wrap up. I want to remind everyone again they can follow Jen on Instagram at Jennifer Chem. Jen, I was somehow not following you on Instagram, but I went. I'm following you now because I. Yeah, crazy. And the brandarchetypequiz.com to take the assessment that Jen is providing to listeners of this podcast, which is awesome of her. Jen, thank you so much for joining me. Are there any last words of wisdom or anything else you want to mention before we wrap up here?

Well, I just wanted to say that one of my favorite quotes that I have on my desk and I've had it for a long time and I always feel like it serves a lot of people who it serves me, so I figured I'd share it with you is by Joan Baez, B A E Z. She's not a poet, she's actually a singer. And a line in one of her songs is action is the antidote to despair. And so whenever I'm feeling desperate or in despair about anything that I'm up to, I look at that quote and I take action, whatever it is, something small. So action is the antidote, despair. That's all I want to say. You know, practice your craft. We need more incredible copywriters because marketing moves the world. That's the truth. And that's why I've. That's why when it became my career, I became so proud of that I had this opportunity to actually influence the world. Hopefully again with the good way of the force, not the dark side of the force. But either way, becoming a good marketer is one of the most helpful careers and crafts in all of business. And so I just want to say to all of you, thank you for if you're listening and you appreciate marketing, thank you for being a good marketer and helping more people.

Awesome. Amazing. Well, that was Jen Kim, everyone. Thank you again, Jen. Really appreciate it. And for everyone who just is joining us or if you're watching the replay on YouTube, make sure you leave a comment, make sure you hit the like button, make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel on iTunes. Same thing. Make sure that you are subscribed to the podcast. Leave a review if you haven't. And we'll see everybody next week. We've got Jim Claire next week, which will be an interesting one and we'll go from there. But thanks, everyone. And thank you again, Jen.

Thank you.