[RTB:E48] Ethical Selling VS. Unethical Selling w/ Jim Clair - Marketing With Integrity and Honesty

Cool. Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host Stefan Georgi and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call in radio show style podcast where you can ask myself and my guests questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, marketing, mindset, relationships, scaling and more. The reason for the name the Road to a Billion is twofold. I've sold around a billion dollars worth of stuff both for clients and a little bit of my own. And I really want to make an impact in the lives of a billion people over the next 10 years. So later on, if you have questions and you're on the zoom call here, you can pop them into the Q and A and we'll answer some of those. And before we do that though, I want to introduce my guest today who is Jim Claire. So Jim is a former direct response copywriter. He's worked with some of the biggest names in affiliate marketing and dating, weight loss, fitness and supplements. Prior to that, he had an extensive background in the car business with sales management, selling both used cars and new cars, a variety of brands. And after around eight years in online marketing, Jim began to feel professionally and morally empty. He noticed something off with constantly, but he couldn't at first put his finger on it, I would guess, but then really could and just realized that a lot of these models and things were a bit screwed up. And so now he speaks out against certain tactics and two dimensional gurus. He points to marketing with integrity and honesty and how that could benefit your business and make money. He also loves to talk about reading, as you can see from the background, if you're watching this live or later on in YouTube. And Jim, we're super happy to have you on, man. Thanks for joining me.

Yeah, no, I'm very glad to be here. Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's kind of been in the making. I know some people have been talking about it and I definitely have to give a huge shout out to Nabil Aziz because he really encouraged me a few months ago to touch base with you and to touch base with or to reach out and talk with you and everything. So I'm really glad that he did because I know you and I both share a lot of at least my subscribers and some of my paid subscribers. We share a lot of people who found us. Yeah. So I'm really thrilled to be here and after our last talk, yeah, I'm.

Very thrilled to be here. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. And I mean for context, for People, you know, you and I had never really interacted. We'd be seeing stuff that the others had written over the years and had tons of mutual friends, but, you know, we hadn't really interacted until that call a few months back. And you know, prior to that, I think it's fair to say we'd butted heads on a few things. Like, I would, I would say stuff, but I'd be like, well, Jim's right about this, but, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I know sometimes you'd be like, look, RNBC might be good, but you know, we kind of had, like, we didn't know each other and maybe didn't trust each other and understandably and you know, Jim, we'll get into this, but someone who sort of has become a reformed marketer, maybe. I don't know if that's a fair way to put it or not, but.

That'S one way, I guess.

Yeah, I guess. Right. But like, you know, we just end up maybe a better marketer, which I want to talk about that too. You know, and I have like assorted past as I've, as I've owned publicly and will continue to own. And so it was understandable why there wasn't a ton of trust. But I just once, you know, Jim and I started talking, I really authentically just enjoyed our conversation. And it was so clear, Jim, that you, you love marketing. You're like a brilliant marketing mind. You know, you love copy, you love all this stuff. And really, it seems to me like, you know, a lot of what you're doing, it's almost like a, like a passion cry or like a plea to people. Like, hey, like, we can, we can preserve this art form and we can, we can go about doing it, but we don't have to do it in a way that makes us like, you know, kind of bad human beings. And whether that's us feeling bad about it, not sleeping at night, or just causing harm in the road. So I guess I'll start there. I mean, how, how did your sort of, how do you describe yourself today? And then how did you know you get to where you are today? Like, I guess going back to the beginning with the origin story.

So how would I describe myself today? I mean, I'm sometimes still searching for it. I mean, I guess, I mean, on one end, I guess you could say, you know, marketing philosophy. I know that that sounds hoity toity a little bit, but, you know, I think there is a, you know, that's kind of the fascinating thing about Marketing is, you know, the psychology, the human nature, the questions, the decisions and what it can and cannot do. I think it's fascinating to me and that's why. Yeah, I mean I do love marketing, you know, so I'm not sure if it's a reformed copywriter, but I do believe there is this essence of marketing with integrity and honesty. And that doesn't mean like I think some people kind of draw up in their mind that that means you're going to be this very like passive marketer. And that's not really the case. You know, you don't have to be. I don't think you need to fabricate. But there are certain levels of aggression or non aggression that are, that are needed. So I think lately I definitely do think about that. I mean I know I still do. I don't really do copy consults anymore, but I still teach copy to my. I have a good word or the good word part of my site is the paid part of my site and I still teach copy there. And also I do copy consults to my goodwill members. So I'm still in copy. I don't write for anyone else. I pretty much write pretty much for myself and I'm loving that. So I can kind of come back to marketing philosophy, I suppose. What are the consequences of it? And that's what really intrigues me now is what are the consequences. And direct marketing, I find personally such a powerful tool that can be used to harbor customer relationships or to get new customers or to keep customers, you know, to scale a business depending on what that business's goals are. But you know, when it's just throttled on the gas, you know, it kind of, in a sense it can market a business into extinction. And I think affiliate marketing and ClickBank is kind of an example of that. Where you know, these products are coming and sure there's a ton of money, but soon that product, you know, if it has a three year lifespan that's amazing, then normally they don't and then the product is kind of, it has gone. So you know, I think there's better ways and there are people do do it. You don't have to get that crazy.

Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't want to go to the origin story, but that was one thing that stood out in our conversation that we had privately a few months back is you sort of talked about how everyone's obsessed with like scaling, right? And this idea of scaling and hockey stick type growth, which I also fall victim to that and get excited because it is cool. On one hand, it's cool that this is an industry where you can have something that takes off and you can have that exponential growth. But one thing that you talked about when we were chatting previously was that that's not always the right path for a lot of people. Right? Like, it doesn't and shouldn't maybe be the focus or emphasis. So I'd love to hear a little bit more of your thoughts around that. And, like, when does, you know, trying to scale make sense or how do we approach that philosophically?

Well, I mean, obviously, I mean, something I've been kind of thinking a lot on lately is there's particular goals of a campaign, right? So, I mean, I'm just. I was actually just writing this in email today. I mean, like a local therapist, right? You're in Las Vegas. Like a local therapist or psychiatrist. You know, they work. If they're really good, you know, their word of mouth is going to scale for them. But, you know, if they're a thought leader, they're on Twitter or something else, they can obviously scale a little bit more. But they don't need the global advertising campaign of Budweiser, right? They're not going to be able to handle that. It's too much. The marketing expense is going to be crazy. So that skill. So it comes down to their particular goal, like, what kind of margins, what kind of rate of return are they? Do they need to be growing at the lifestyle they want? Like, if they really want a lot of money, then, yes, they can scale it. But that product on their back end or for them, it's their personality, their work, they're going to have to take on, you know, what kind of product are they setting up in order to keep that business coming back. But so they don't need that. You know, we're going to cure all your ills in three days. You know, that's going to draw a customer that's probably not going to be very good for them. But on the flip side, where it's something more, you know, if a company's doing a more, you know, one time or, you know, go back to Budweiser, I suppose, like, they're obviously much more of a global. They're not really doing direct marketing that much anymore. But, you know, their goal is to lower the, you know, their production costs, lower their, you know, so that way they can, you know, ship the beer quicker or ship their other alcohols quicker and scale it quicker and get more people drinking it quicker. It's not just necessarily tied to Budweiser. So there's particular goals and nuances that sit in the spectrum. I think a lot of direct marketers tend to, especially in the world that we're in. You must constantly just, it's like showing up to every single, you know, it's like you must drive in a funny car everywhere you go at the drag racing funny car. You must drive in this all the time and hit on the gas all the time. Like, well, not really. Like there's other successful ways and you can be patient. That doesn't mean like you know, we're avoiding money but your growth, you know, how you want to be growing, your business is going to be a little bit different than hammering on the gas all the time. So it's those kinds of questions that you have to be looking to that business model. What do I want? You know, what is my expenses? What kind of lifestyle do I want before you ratcheting up? Or it's like we're going to just kind of. I'm going to do most of my marketing via, you know, could be via Twitter or it could be via a pitch on YouTube or you know, utilizing various things and what's coming my way. So, so I think there's kind of, I mean it's hard to kind of put that always to tangibles but it is kind of that goal of the business and of course that takes an expenses. Xyz.

Yeah, no, no, I think, and I think that's a great point and because you see that all the time. I mean there's, there's people, there's hit and runs, right? There's like the sort of direct response offers where they're, it's like a money grab. Like we get like six good months, like a year, like we're happy, right? And then there's other people who maybe think they're building something like more long term but they scale so fast and everything breaks. I mean it happens all the time too because they are probably. Because in their, their mentality it's like I. Part of it's probably even a validation, right? Like oh, I want to have an eight figure offer or something like that because like then I really made it. And then often there's a good, you know, a good greed component when make money too and all that. But like part of it's probably a validation component. But yeah, you just see even those people, if you don't put the, if you don't have the foundation, I mean really cliche, right? But if you don't have the foundation and you just try to build the house, like everything falls apart and you see that all the time. So I think there's a lot of wisdom and making sure the pieces are actually in place. I guess one question, you know, and you may not have an answer. This is a really tough question and unique to everybody probably. But like, how do you think, you know, when you are ready to sort of put your foot on the gas a little bit, you know, like, what would, how do you think about that?

I mean, obviously it's hard. I mean, knowledge and insight is always tough to predict. You know, it's very easy to be wrong. I mean, I think the easiest thing is always. I think a lot of people will complicate themselves that they need to or they complicate or distract themselves. I need to read 15 success books or I need to see what Warren Buffett is doing. I need to see what this is doing. But you know, as, you know, the more you get your feet wet, that's going to be the experience and that's going to give you a lot of the information that you need back. That's not saying don't learn, right. You know, it's important. You know, the more you sharpen your skills, the more you sharpen your, your craft, the better you're going to take, you know, chance of oper. The better you're going to grab hold of opportunities, the better your business is going to grow, your career is going to grow. But as far as a business, I mean, it's, you know, I think it has to. I think a lot of people tend to forget the numbers. So, right. If you have your, like you're starting your small say info product, you know, I mean, you're just, it's a side job and it's kind of getting a few people your way. Then you can start advertising maybe a little bit, you know, I'm put a little bit more. I'm going to try one of these sales letters, you know, and then I'm going to try in a different avenue to get more people my way. It's working great. So I'm going to, you know, I have enough money to cover this so I can grow a little bit more. So there is that kind of more organic growth, but I think there's. It's knowing when to avoid that dopamine rush. If, well, I got this huge hit now it's spiraling. Well, I got to get another big hit. So you have to kind of be wary of that. And it's really hard, right? I mean, it's really hard to Answer that. When you need to grow, when not to grow. But usually it's experimenting. But be open to the fact that, okay, I just had a huge hit, my ego wants to get an even bigger hit, but right now that might not be the goal. So we have this XYZ customers. Let's see what we can build from these particular customers. Maybe it's, you know, maybe we can't go so much on a front end anymore. We have to harbor the relationships on the back end. You know, maybe there's some sort of product development that we can do in the back end or improve some sort of onboarding experience or something like that to keep these people versus, like, I must chase that big hit, you know, but it's tough, you know, like a lot. I mean, big corporations screw this up all the time too. But, I mean, they have monopoly money to make mistakes. But, you know, smaller businesses have to be really careful of. Instead of just chasing that hit after hit after hit after hit after hit, I think. So again, like I mentioned earlier, a lot can come back to numbers. And you realize that marketing is an expense. You know, is it helping you, you know. You know, is it lowering costs anywhere else because your product is getting easier to produce? Or if you're more of a personality, you know, or do you need to perhaps create a different, you know, do you need to adapt and create a more, you know, more intimate, say, you know, a consult or an event type thing? You know, you have to be cognizant of, you know, of where you need to be.

Yeah, no, that makes. That makes a ton of sense, honestly. And I think it's really. I like the idea of. Yeah. Not being addicted to those. Those dopamine hits and.

Right.

Yeah.

But it's, It's.

It's easy to happy. I've had that experience where I've had, like, something offers that I'm partnered in back in the day where it was like, all right, we're gonna keep this about 50 to 100 sales a day. We're gonna, you know, like, because of inventory, we want to. We're gonna grow it, like, all that stuff. And then you have some big affiliate come in and blow it out the water. And like, suddenly, you know, you're doing like 500 sales, like 700 sales. And then you're like, well, I want more. You get like, you know, something just weird happens in your brain, and then you get, like, so excited and then. But then again, most of the time, a bunch of shit breaks. And then you're like, oh, I really wish I had.

Right? You're like, it'll never stop.

It'll be perfect.

I'm different than everyone else.

Never is. Yeah. So let's go back in time. I mean, when you, how did you first discover the world of like direct response? Like how did you, when you were young, you know, bright, bright eyed, bushy tailed Jim Claire, you know, coming into the world before sort of your own, your own awakening. Right. But how did you first kind of come into the whole world of direct response?

Well, it's, it's, it's very weird. So I'll be very open here. So my background. So I started in the car business. So my dad, third generation car guy, my grandfather started a car business in Eau Claire Motors back in Boston in 1964. And I think he started selling cars after the, we got back from the war and then my dad really scaled it, so I worked for him. But I was very lucky that my dad threw me into the wolves. I mean, a lot of these dealer kids are, you know, they're like coke addicts by the time they're 15 and you know, hookers, you know, they don't really do anything. So I was very lucky that he.

Threw me to the wolves.

And then I worked after the business sold, I worked at another Claire sold and I worked at another car dealership. And that was great because it kind of, I had worried that like, is it because my name is on the sign, the reason why I'm making this money, you know, So I was like, so when I went work somewhere else and make more, even more money, I was like, well, this is awesome. Geez, why doesn't my dad pay me more? So it was great to get that success. But then kind of what happened? It was a weird thing that happened. So I was in a really bad relationship with this, this girl was crazy. And my dad was dying of cancer. So and I was just. With my dad dying and the car business going through, and he just told me, he's like, do what you want to do. You know, you're smart, you know, I believe in you. Like, I was very blessed to have him. Just incredible father. So after he died, you know, I was with this crazy girl and I kind of started studying the pickup stuff. So this was what, geez, 2008 or so. So I was kind of like when the game was big, you know. And then I moved out to Colorado, I got back in the car business for a hot second. I'm like, I don't, I don't really want to be Doing this. And then one of. I saw an email saying a position open. I think it was for Dao of Badass, right? So I was a client. I was a customer of theirs. I bought the book. I'm like, all right. So I showed up and was in a basement in Denver. And I was like, what is this? I'm coming from the car business. The car business is great. It's not like it's very down to earth.

It's very.

You're not gonna be a. You can't be a snob, you know, work in the car business or academics. But it's still. It is kind of a professional area. So I'm walking into a basement, you know, and there's like, you know, I'm like, what is this? And then I'm like, there's no way these guys are making money. And then one of the time, Josh Pelissier, who's a very interesting guy, you know, so I'm sitting there for three days, and they're like, here, write emails and sell this stuff. I had no clue what affiliate marketing. So I think I was questioning. I'm like, why are we getting rid of customers to competitors? I don't understand that. Like, no, it's. Then it just sell that. I had no idea how to put in the link or anything. I think at the time we had to write the emails of Dreamweaver or whatever that thing. I had no clue what I was doing. I didn't know what I was copyrighting. So I was like, all right, I'll just sell. Like, okay. And it was working. They're like, holy shit, this is working. So Josh said, so you have the. You know, you're disciplined, you have belly to belly sales experience, or you're kind of a bit weird. I'm like, okay, whatever that means, because you're gonna be our copywriter. And I was like, I don't know what that means. Like I said, I'm not a legal copywriter. I write on copyright stuff. He's like, no, copywriter. What you're doing right now with the emails, I'm like, that's selling. He's like, no, that's copywriting. I'm like, I don't know what you mean. So he said, go home and check out the Halbert letters. So he gave me the site and I watched it and I was hooked. Because I remember. Cause my dad was a little bit of a. Kind of a survivalist sort of person. So I remember, like those crazy ads, like in the magazines. I was like, oh, my God. And it just connected with me. Like, I really, really liked it. And that was it. And that was the start. So they had me doing emails and eventually I started doing upsells. And then I kind of went on to, you know, video sales letters on adult traffic, which is a very weird world. And then, you know, I left dow. It was kind of like, it was very, you know, Daos is a kind of a common story. If you have huge hit offer, then it starts vanishing and everyone starts panicking. So then I went and worked for Venus Factor. It's not just Venus Factor, Digital Health Solutions, you know, so they have, I mean, geez, I think I don't have many offers they have now, but the time that around 12 and that was it. So, you know, worked with them then, you know, consulting and doing copy critiques and stuff for people outside. So that was kind of the journey into copy.

And then by the way, it is interesting because we do have a lot of similarities in our stories. And you know, my dad passed away from cancer in like 2011, but I was lucky to have had him. And I, and I always felt like I was good at selling before I discovered like copywriting. But I, you know, same thing. It was interesting, that distinction because you're like, oh yeah, I just, like, I'm just, I'm selling using words and like part of this. That's true, that's part of it. But then it's like, yeah, I think copywriting goes deeper than that and we can kind of get to that in a minute. But so from there, I mean, what, you know, you had a moment where you sort of had that look in the mirror moment, I guess, right? How did. Was it gradual? Was like a day where you were just like, you know, like, man, like, fuck, I don't want to do this or I feel like bad, or I feel like this is shady or, you know, how did that happen?

I mean, it was a. It was definitely a culmination of a few things and I think over a period of a few years. For starters, it's interesting, I went, you kind of work into more of an affiliate marketing thing. Cause giving the customers away to competitors, it just never really made sense to me. Kind of coming from the car business. And I felt like it's like, geez, I just sold this person xyz. Or the salesman just sold this person xyz. And now we're just going to take them across the street to the Chevy dealership to get a Chevy. It's like, I don't understand that. Why aren't we putting them? Why are we putting them into our back? Why are we doing what we can to try to keep this person as best we can? So that kind of always stuck in my head. But what sort of ha. It was kind of a few things, you know, like my dad on one end after my dad had passed, like, he did really well and had this internal competition where it's like, I can beat what he did. And I had that really huge drive. And I think that's when I started getting really caught up in the success mindset stuff. Wake up, do this. Conversions are everything. But then I kind of started realizing over time, especially in the weight loss stuff, seeing the competitors ads or even the stuff we were talking about, I'm like, this is a straight line to them, and these people are, you know, they have hope and we're just gonna take them. And really not. I mean, it's not necessarily all the products are bad. You know, I have to preface that. Everyone thinks, you know, I think all products are bad. There's a lot of bad products, you know, the clickbank stuff, but not every single one is bad. You know, it's like we're just taking them and throwing them away. We're fabricating stories like, this doesn't feel right. And I think, you know, it just. Something was off about that with me. And then, you know, then the kind of the moralizing aspect of the success mindset of, you know, money is everything and money is this and money is that. And it's like, geez, you know, I've been around some pretty wealthy people, and they just don't behave like this, right? They don't. They just don't behave like this. And it's so. I just didn't. It wasn't quite jiving with me. And then kind of a big thing was I got pretty deep in stoicism. So not the Ryan Holiday stuff where it's, you know, it's very watered down. I mean, it's great that he waves a flag for it, but I really went really deep into it. And there was something about, you know, the transparency and the honesty and kind of what David Ogilvy, you know, said about, you know, don't advertise something you wouldn't sell to your mother. It's like, well, I'm not gonna be selling. Like, here I am, I'm stuck on a plane and my, you know, my obese wife is dying. And, you know, it's like, this is. This is such nonsense. So I started looking to people, you know, businesses and personalities outside of direct market or not outside of direct marketing. Excuse me, outside more of our sphere and seeing like, geez, these businesses are doing well, like Mark Manson. Like when I first got into the seduction niche, everyone was laughing at him like, oh, he's never gonna make it. You know, he's just stupid. He's got it. He needs this, he needs that. I mean, granted, the book gave him, you know, the book was great, right? That was huge chance and a huge success. But over time, like, you know, he started his. He was writing interesting things. He wasn't doing all of these crazy things. And he was outlasting a lot of this. I mean, a lot of the seduction guys are gone. I mean, he's here, he's outlasting them just without doing any of this nonsense. I mean, he started figuring out a model when everyone's saying, oh, he's wrong, he's an idiot. You know, he needs this xyz. So the dishonesty stuff, I just started having a real hard time looking in the mirror. And it was kind of over time, you know, and I, and I like most of the people I work with, digital health, you know, but you know, one of the main offer owners is definitely a unique personality. I just can't, I just can't do this anymore. And I left them and I thought I was going to kind of go somewhere. I'm like, I just, I was in a fortunate position where I didn't really have to, you know, I didn't have to be chasing down clients. So I just, so I was like, I ain't gonna stop. Like, I have to look into myself and what I'm doing here. Like this dishonesty of everything. And that was kind of it, like, you know, it was kind of, I want to say it was really like a two year sort of what am I doing? You know, I'd lie awake at night like, I don't want to be 60 years old doing affiliate marketing or running affiliate offer. I just don't want to be doing that. You know, it isn't making any sense for me to do that.

So.

Like that, that was sort of it. And another thing was I went to an Oren Claf event, Oren Clough, and I kind of hit it off. And it was amazing seeing all these other businesses. I mean, granted, Oren's a little more in the venture capital world, but. Or, you know, I was like, jeez, these guys are doing great money. They're using direct response in very different ways. And it's like, I don't need to be doing this crazy info product marketing thing. And there's something off with what these people are doing. And what bugged me too was people being really misled. Like, there are people on clickbank who do have good products and then they kind of burn themselves out trying to chase these wild hits. I'm like, there's just something off. There's something off to businesses and entrepreneurs and there's something off also to consumers too. So that was kind of. I know that's a long, rambling answer. Sort of what happened? Like, I just couldn't do it anymore.

Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. One question I have, because I know I've gotten this before and I would imagine, like one person kept on saying in the chat about it wasn't like it wasn't put in, like in a critical way, but basically people will be like, well, yeah, you got successful and then you started, you know, trying to like, do other things. You had your moral awakening, right? And I like, one thought I've had about that is like, like you can never defend against it because it's like if it happened that way, you're like, yeah, kind of. But like, I guess one thing I point out is like, it's actually kind of, in some ways it's harder. You have more to lose, right? If you switch what you're doing and you're really successful and good at it. And it's like suddenly you have like, you know, like all this sort of like money's coming in and you have this like this really great money making skill, like, great as far as great at making money and all that. And you're like, oh, you know, like, I'm not gonna do that anymore. So that's sort of one counter I have to that. And then, you know, the other is like, well, actually, let me not talk about my opinion. I'm curious what. When you hear people who kind of, who say that sort of stuff, like, you know, what are your thoughts on it?

Because I mean, I think, I think.

It'S fair for people to say that. But like, I'm, you know, curious, right?

It's a great point because a lot of people bring up to me like, oh, he just made it and now he's just, he's coming out and shitting.

On all of us.

So I mean, that's not the case. So, I mean, yes, there definitely was, you know, I was very successful in the car business and I forgot to mention in my ramble there that a lot of lessons from the car business started Kind of also surfacing in my head. You know, the car business, a lot of people think it's scammy. Like in Massachusetts, you really can't. Just the laws and regulations, you just can't. So you learn, you know, when to be really aggressive. Like, if you're selling a $500 used car, likely you're not going to see that person again. So you do step on the gas. You can't lie to the person because it's just Massachusetts. You just can't do it right. So you have to learn how to get really aggressive, you know, so you use like, scarcity and like, well, I guess you can't afford it. So you turn your backs, you do all this kind of weird stuff, but you don't do that with a Porsche, right? So those things started coming up to me.

It's like.

Yeah, I was in a business, in the car business that's really relatively aggressive. But you're not lying to get these customers. Or if you do, it's obviously people who do. It's not like all car guys are saints. That's certainly not what I'm saying. But there's a matter of you can succeed in it, but you have to find a way that you just can't be breaking laws. So those things kind of, you know, got to me. This isn't. This doesn't quite feel right, how I'm selling this. Like, you know, there's just something off here. And certainly, you know, I was trying to drown myself and like, well, I'm just conversions. I'm making a lot of money, you know. You know, therefore, I'm providing value into the world. So since I'm providing value by making money because I'm an entrepreneur, you know, I was kind of telling myself this, it doesn't fit. So when I started to think about walking away from this, and I think there is something to like, well, I made money in it. You know, I'm walking away from it. So I definitely did make some money and I made really good money in it. But I know I walked away from a ton of money. I left a lot of money on the table walking away. I think my skill was developing and was getting much better at it. And I just walked away from it, you know, because I was like, this isn't the sole way. You know, my example is, you know, obviously someone like Mark Manson is a different example, but there's plenty of other personalities and businesses out there who stayed away from that super aggressive stuff and who have built, you know, either a personality or brand or have built a product or e commerce thing without using these crazy tactics. And I started really studying them and admiring them, you know, so I obviously yeah, I made a lot of money doing you know, kind of, you know, some of the shady stuff and some non shady stuff. But you know, I walked away from it. It doesn't make me any better or any less I don't think. But there is something, you know, there was just something to it from the car business where like this doesn't make, you know, this is really taking advantage of people. It just doesn't feel right.

Yeah.

You know, and I don't need to be doing this, you know. And I also think too it's. I think there's a misconception of people think anyone who's doing that is an asshole. And that's what Jim Claire is saying. That's not at all the case. I think some people don't realize they don't need to be doing that as aggressive a tactics or as maybe aggression is fine, but the fabrication and the craziness, they don't need to be doing that as much because they're talented but they don't need to be stepping over this line.

Yeah. And I think and dude. So yeah, I love that. And I think another thing I was thinking about as you were talking right. There is one thing I think you also realize with wisdom and experience is that to your point there are other ways. I mean it's huge part what you're saying. There are other ways to do this, to still sell, to still acquire customers, to still build and grow a business. I mean like, you know with like I wrote a like a VSL for like a pet supplement recently and like it's like an amazing product. Every single ingredient is trademarked. They have like actual animal studies on the actual dosages in it. There's like a celebrity vet guy who's like just like really amazing vet, like just awesome spokesperson and like you know, there's like no egregious claims, right. Said to my mom like hey mom, check this out. How cool. Like isn't it? She's like wow, this is really great. Like you know, and like. But so what I, what I realized because I still like direct response copy but it's like, oh like, you know, I don't need to say all this crazy shit.

Right.

If it's a really good product and there's like, you know, good people behind it and you sort of are. It fills the need in the market. Like. And so sometimes it's maybe for People who say the, oh, now you have money and you're, you know, walking away. It's like, maybe you're not walking away. You're just like, oh, maybe you have time to stop and breathe, and then you realize that you can be doing it differently. But that's one thing I just kind of. Now I try to hope people understand is like, I reviewed one more thing. I reviewed some copy yesterday in the copy starter group, and as someone who's a really good person, very much conscious about the compliance stuff. And it was like a weight loss supplement. And. And there it was like a Facebook ad, but it was like, you know, how do I know it works? It was coming from a doctor. It's like every single person who uses it, like, you know, it works for them. And, like, you will. And I was like, you can just soften this so much and still, like, sell it. Like, right. You can just be like, I've seen it work for a lot of people. Like, everybody's different. But, like, in my experience, and I've given it to, like, you know, my patients, and they combine it with exercise and diet. Like, they get good results from it, like, on average. Right. Like, so this could work for you. It's worth trying. Like, you can say stuff like that. You don't have to be like, this will work and you are going to lose a ton of weight. And I think it's like, it's almost just like, maybe from experience, you start to realize that there's way more subtleties and nuances, and I think people actually respect it. Right. I've done that now where I really soften stuff up and. But people want to buy a product because they're like, you know, hoping that's going to help with something. Then they're going to. They're gonna. They'll sell themselves almost if you just give them, like, the ammunition and let them, like, you know. So I don't. I think there's something interesting to that as. As well.

Right. Well, that's what I think was your.

The.

I don't know if you're still running it. Haven't looked in a little bit, but the. Your RNBC sales page, where you have the video script with you talking. Like, I thought that was really well done. I don't know how well it did, but I think that was really. It was very. It was authentically well done. Cause a lot of copy courses are. It's like, you know, you know, Lethal Persuasion, Secrets of Donald Trump, or, you know, it's like, oh, you know, like, What Putin uses to get people and you know, Nostradamus and you know you will. It's just like, what is this nonsense? You don't need to be doing that. Like, because I like that the page was, you know, like when I saw that was. It was, you know, it was an expert speaking. Right. And I think it appealed to at least, you know, and I don't, I don't know the particular stats of that, but I think it appealed to people who were professionals who were really good. Like, okay, this is going to help me either get sales letters out quicker or get a method out quicker, but also to new people. Like, this guy knows what he's talking about. And that's the vibe that I got from that. It wasn't like it was good footage too. I think I just had to say like it was a. I don't know why some now the new VSL's it's stock footage or the product offer owner speaks and still looks like stock footage. I mean it looks terrible. Like just speak to yourself. But you know, I think a lot of businesses don't realize or direct markets they can use, you know. Yeah, there, you know, there's certain levels of touch of aggression and stuff, but you don't need to be going this hyper crazy stuff. Right. Because you can qualify your customer. And again, then again that comes back down to the numbers that you're running. Like if you need a huge hit to survive, there's something off there in your model, you know, or something has gone awry. But yeah, I think, yeah, that kind of, that authenticity can definitely work. And there's definitely levels of, you know, how aggressive or how unaggressive you want to be with it.

Yeah, 100%. And yeah, that page has done mostly warm traffic, but done, you know, quite well for that. And it's funny because I had a really good writer write like a, like a more biz op y version of it, you know. And I just like never felt comfortable running it because I like, obviously you can make good money as a copywriter, right. I've helped tons of people do it. And I think it's actually if you have an inclination towards writing and you're gonna put the work in and the hours, I think it's a great profession for a lot of people. But yeah, I was like, yeah, I don't going down the whole path of like sort of like magic income making opportunity. I'm like, yeah, I just like don't want to. I just don't want to do that. Right. Like I just can't, can't go there.

So.

Yeah, man. So who are you? Like when you, because you work with people today, like you're doing, you've kind of, I guess what would you say? Consulting, coaching, things like that? Or is it like, how would you define what you kind of do as far as making.

Well, it's interesting when I put out my site, you know, because I had to resist the impulse of like I have to position myself as, as XYZ guy. I was like, you know, and then I'm going to buy a ton of traffic and drop. So I had like, I'm like, okay. Just, you know, because I kind of went around for, you know, after leaving more aggressive spheres to different events and studying different personalities and you know, I went to Micro Comp, which is like an SAS event. So I'm like, no, I'm just going to kind of put my side up and see what comes my way, you know. You know, I'm not going to put on the gas. I'm just going to see what happens. So the copywriters, I mean I definitely have a, you know, you and I definitely mutually share copywriters, you know, kind of who are in our sphere or coming out of our sphere. So that's. And then, you know, I like that there's a lot of high level guys and also brand new guys to it too. The unique thing is that I have a few agency people like, you know, there's one client I have, you know, and they worked with Ogilvy or not the David Ogilvie, but Ogilvy, the company. And they left and started their own agency. And I have a few people like that, which I think is pretty interesting because they said they wanted to do more direct response stuff. Like they knew a lot about the branding and everything but they wanted a kind of more direct response that was kind of, they felt there was a little bit of a weak spot. So it's kind of neat coaching them. It's like working on brochures and they're building out branding. So that's one element of it. And there's a couple of like business owners. What has connected with a few people is they don't want to cheapen their brand. I don't know if I, I think I might have said that somewhere, somewhere on my site that whatever when I said that that really resonated with them. So they believe in direct response copy but they don't want to. You know, what's often thrown at them is this hyper aggressive stuff and I see There's. There's other various ways to do this. So I coach a lot of them, and I do have a couple people who are, you know, I guess, kind of who under undergoing or the journey. I went. Not. Not necessarily related, but, you know, they were in the crazy affiliate world and like. And they're leaving. You know, they were scared because I don't know how I'm gonna make money. And they are making money, so that's really cool. They see that they left and they're working with other small businesses locally. So that's kind of the crowd. And a lot of people love reading, which is very cool.

Yes, that's awesome. Cool. So, Jim, I want to go to some of the questions from our audience, if you're cool to do that.

Yeah, that'd be fun.

Sweet. So, yeah, the way it does it, I'll basically give a quick little, you know, so and so has a question about this, and we'll bring them on. We'll let them actually kind of ask their question, and then we'll answer it. So the first. First we're bring up Max. Max had two questions. One about, you know, transparency and. And kind of making promises, and then another one that was pretty unrelated, but I think actually an interesting question too. So, Max, come on. Come on over. Max, what's up, man?

It would sound good to be here. Okay, I'm gonna go with the first question more on the business side.

Okay.

Which is we all know that people are perhaps getting more sophisticated and more connected to ethical marketing and just like, more transparent and honest marketing. And my question was, what do you think is the balance point between being hypey and aggressive, as you were saying, and being transparent and honest? Because if I told you, like, both, hey, you're gonna get a six pack with this, no matter what, some part of you on the back of your mind is gonna be like, yeah, sure, but this is bullshit. Right. Or at least you're gonna have a thought of that kind. And if I soften that up, and I'd be like, hey, with this, you're gonna feel like you're gonna be able to feel more confident, be a great example for your kids and. And also get a great physique if you put in the work. What do you think is the middle point?

So again, the question. So it's a matter of transparency and how, I guess, kind of how aggressive or hyper you can go, right? And is that. Are you pertaining to writing the actual copy or.

Yeah, exactly. But I mean, generally, as whatever type of offer or market we're speaking to. We can still get great results. And I do writing ethical copy, as we were all commenting.

Yes, I definitely do. You know, it's a matter of. So that's kind of what I, you know, when I mentioned like a goal of a campaign, right? So you can get, you know, you can be very transparent and honest. And that's going to come down to the good writing. Like, how do you. You present the problem that they are facing or your big idea or slash promise, right? So here's what you. Here's what you know, here are two issues with it and here's how we solve it. And like, you know, and then could be. Here are three or four problems. Now, the language you use, like, for me, getting aggressive is going to be much more. You might be a little bit more hammering on kind of scarcity to. Look, this product is $20. You know, we have XYZ left. Or, you know, you may be, you may love it, you may not, but here's. You can decide. So that kind of language on the close is where you can get a little bit more aggress. But a lot of it is going to come down to how hard you're going to hammer the problem. And I don't necessarily think that's a lot of copper. Will try to hammer on the emotional side of things, but if you're hammering more on, I think the sweet spot is if it's like if the winter is coming type of feeling, right? So you can take what they currently use or, you know, what they're currently used to, and you can create cognitive dissonance with it. And there's a line. The more aggressive you get, you have to be careful of not walking over a line of insulting whatever they're using. That just doesn't really work. But you can say, look, there's issues here and here's XYZ issues. So then you present that problem. Then at the end, or more likely towards the end of the pitch, is where like, look, either you can afford it or you can't. Like, that's kind of an aggressive sort of angle. Or if you're just using scarcity, like, we have only 20 left or XYZ left, or I'm going to do this price right now for the next, whatever, three days. That's where I think you can kind of hammer a little bit of aggression there. But you're not lying to the person, right? Like, you don't need to go over the top and your life is going to be changed. Look, I presented everything that Needs to be presented here. Either you love it or you don't. If you love it, you got to get on it right now. So that kind of theme, I think works well.

Yeah, sure. And it's not like saying, hey, we have 20 ebooks. Grab yours quickly.

Right, right. Like, 20 ebooks. Yeah. But the sales page has been there for a year.

Cool.

Max, can I ask the personal question? Because I think it's not going to be too deep.

You can let me make one more point on this first question, because I think another part of it two comes, like, I don't know, anecdotally, I guess. It's like. It is just like. It's like doing your research and being willing to go, like, deeper. For example. So I'm writing for, like, I'm JV with, like, a supplement company, and one of the products is sort of like a. Like a. Like a colon, like, cleanse. Right. But here's the issue. Like, if you look at most of the stuff in the marketplace, it talks about how you've got 5 to 20 pounds of, like, old poop in your digest, in your colon, it talks about you have eight undigested meals and there's, like, all this stuff. But then if you start, like I was doing. Starting the research on it, and basically it's just like, yeah, none of that's really true. Like, Right. It can be, but it's very rare that somebody actually has all this, like, you know, 20 pounds of poop in them or that, like, and that's talking about poop. But, like, you know, and again, most cleanses aren't really getting toxins out. Right? Like, it's like your body will detox anyway. So, like, you're going through this stuff, and it's like, all right, well, how do I. How do I sell this? But then it's like, as you really. As I started to research more, it was like, two things. One thing was that I found that, like, you know, you don't have, like, poop that just sits in your system for your colon for, like, years normally. But, like, as you get older, the transit time, basically, from when you put food through your mouth through to when it leaves your butt slows down. So it can take a longer time. So maybe, like, you know, instead of, like, eat food, you know, tonight, poop tomorrow, it may take a few days. And so. And that can actually mess up your gut. Like, bacteria, right? Like, because if you. Basically, the slower your transit time it is, like, the less bacteria you have in your gut, like, good bacteria. So it Kind of hurts diversity. And then beyond that, you like, research. And a lot of people who buy these products are like, I just want to poop more regularly. And it's like, well, this product's great for making you poop more regularly. So then suddenly, like, okay, so, like, I can actually. I can sell this, but I don't have to take a bunch of, like, unrealistic claims and then say that they're going to basically get out all these toxins that are, like, killing them and causing cancer and all that. It's like, this is like, hey, this can help clear you out. If you don't poop regularly now you can poop more regularly.

Right.

And it has a bunch of ingredients that have been used in OTC laxatives and other things that, like, it actually does what you say it's going to do. So just an anecdotal example, I guess, or something. I just went through writing copy where if I was kind of lazy, I guess. Right. I could have just gone like, oh, everyone's saying that you've got all this old stuff in you, but by. Sometimes it's as simple as going deeper and being like. And being creative. Right. Using your actual mind, which is fun because then it's like an intellectual exercise. You're like, all right, how do I sell this without having to make a bunch of claims that aren't true? Right. But that should be. It can be fun. It's like a fun challenge in a way to solve that. It's like a puzzle you solve. And so, you know, I guess that's just one. One way to help with when you come to, like, what claims to make and not make. And, you know, it's like, let's. Let's make real claims. But you can still find really unique things and have really interesting angles and hooks. So I don't want to ramble about that too much, but I thought maybe it was relevant to the conversation.

Yeah, that's great. And on the more personal side of things, you both had your parents die to cancer, right? So what are some things you learned from that? What would you. Okay, okay, this is the question. What would you tell to your younger selves back then that would have helped them have an easier time with that kind of issue?

That's a heavy one, Jim. I'll let you go first if you. If you're comfortable answering. Yeah, Geez.

I mean, it's just something that's applicable, Right. To everybody going through some hard stuff.

So.

Another way of thinking of that.

Yeah. I mean, it's If. I mean, if they. I mean, there's definitely because of the crazy gal I was dating. I wish I had certainly spent more time with. My dad was my best friend, right? So, I mean, I spoke to him every single day and he was an incredible mentor, you know. You know, so I mean, he and I chatted every day, so. But, you know, I kind of wish I had spent a few more days. Days with him near the. I mean, I was there at the end, which was very traumatic. But I think afterwards, you know, I think I tried to race, try to figure everything out. And I think I tried to race to try to, you know, find some sort of. You know, I must, you know, I think that was. There was definitely an impulse like what he did, his legacy. I must be it in order to honor him, in order to honor myself too, you know, because he and I were very close. So I think to kind of pause and just like, you know, accept that morning a little bit. I wish I had found stoicism then. I think it would have. It probably would have helped to kind of control, like, I have this. What am I going to do now? You know, like it. So it's tough to say, but I think sitting in that mourning a little bit and not trying to race to do something, I think probably would have benefited it. And then realized, yes, this is painful, but, you know, it's part of it and I'm very blessed to have had him. Something like that. At least that's what pops in my head right now. That's a great question, and I'm definitely going to think about that for a couple days. So thank you.

Thank you, Jim. Cool. Well, Maxia, thank you for. If you want me to answer too, I will. But for me, I mean, what I'm. The best advice I got was from somebody saying basically how there's no. Within a pretty wide kind of set of boundaries. There's no wrong way to respond or react to something like this. Like, everyone has. Reacts differently, right? So for me, like, I, like, didn't really like cry much like when I walked in that final morning. And you know, there's like the hospital, it was in the house, but like a, you know, hospital type bed, like a cot. And you know, you see your father's like, dead body and your dad's just dead, and you're standing there like, looking over your dead father. You know, it's a fucking crazy moment, right? And I cried like a little bit then, but I honestly didn't even cry that much then or at the funeral. And then I was at a movie theater in Florida with, you know, my now wife, Laura, like, maybe three, four months later. And she went to use the bathroom after this movie we just watched. And I, like, was looking at my voicemails on my phone, and I basically went back and I realized I had a voicemail. And it was from my mom, not my dad. But it was like, hey, you know, your father and I were talking about this or whatever it was. And so, like, my dad was still alive right when that voicemail had been recorded. And for whatever reason, I just. In this public movie theater, like, Lost, I mean, just like, like, cried for, like. Like sobbing, one of the hardest ever cried. Got to, like, the car and just cried in the car, like, shaking for, like 15, 20 minutes. And it was like the craziest delayed reaction. But that's like, okay, right? So. And so I guess again, just go back to, like, knowing, like, it's okay, that that's how I responded. Like, you don't have to, like, if you don't feel like crying, like, you know, like, at the time, like, that's okay. If you cry every single moment of every day, that's okay too, right? Death is a really hard thing, and it's okay to respond however you're going to respond, to react. So, I mean, that's like, a lesson that somebody told me that really helped. I had studied. I was a philosophy major in college, so to Jim's point, on stoicism, I had studied existentialism a lot. And I think that helped me somewhat because I at least had spent time thinking about death and mortality and things of that nature. And I guess and then the fact that it, it, you know, everything passes, everything gets easier with time. It doesn't mean you don't, you know, keep being sad or miss your loved one or anything like that, but just, you know, like, literally, even though the worst. The worst things, they pass. We're. We're gifted and cursed as humans have, like, really short memories, I feel like. You know, and so whether it's. It's like a good death or anything, I'm reading this really good book about, like, Stalin and his inner circle and. Which is fucking crazy, I forget the name of it, but I'll. Maybe I'll share in the show notes. Like, it's, like, fascinating even. Like, you know, people in this inner circle who, like, went to, like, the gulags and were tortured for two years, but then they're like, oh, shit, we need them to help us win in World War II. So they bring them out. And even those people would like, come out like a little bit like, like damaged from it, but they would go back to work and then they basically forget like that experience. It's crazy how we can even horrific experiences, you don't. You don't fully forget. Like, you never forget that you were tortured or that somebody died. But like, our mind is good at putting things behind us and looking forward if we let it. So, you know, I don't know if that's helpful or not, but those are some. Some thoughts I have on it, at least.

Yeah, that's great.

And I love the philosophic, like, point of view on it from both of you. Thanks for opening up. I loved it.

Yeah, man, thank you. Max question. Sweet. Okay, cool. So we have Nabil next and he, I know has a good question about formulate copy and marketing, things like that. So maybe I'll bring you on as long as you're cool with that, if you're able.

Yeah.

What's up, man? What's going on, guys? How's it going?

Yeah, first time here live in honor of Jim showing up.

Appreciate that.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. So my question is, Jim, you shit on using formulake copy and marketing or templates, and you even throw some shade on RNBC once in a while. So what I wanted to ask you is what do you suggest for beginners who are trying to learn what works and what doesn't work? And also, even if they're not beginners, why bother reinventing the wheel? If it works, it works.

Right, Right. So I think to clarify the, you know, the RNBC or the formula thing, I think there's obviously something to the formulas.

Right.

Because they work helping you get out of the gates. I mean, I believe I'm a strong proponent of understanding, you know, first, if you can understand the structure or the outline. And I think that's a great way to look at a lot of different copy formulas. Like even the Agora formula, look at it to an outline. Obviously these phrases work, but there's a point where you need to get above them. There's a point you need to climb above them. And I think that really does come down to, on one end, understanding good writing. Because even good writing, people just think that's like a tech sales page, but that's not really the case. It also comes down to writing, you know, whether it's a radio jingle or a pitch. And then on the other thing, you know, the formulas in a sense have worked, but they tend to be a little bit downstream. If you're just sticking to them. And I think with copy, it's easy for copywriters. Like, there's a lot of uncertainty in what you're about to do. Especially like the first ad, it's rare. I mean, obviously it's going. Some people might happen, like, it's rare that it's going to just explode out of the gate. That would be amazing. But it's about facing uncertainty. So if you depend too heavily on the formula, you're not really facing uncertainty. You're not really crafting your skill. You're not really developing any better. You're just kind of going to, like, it'll just likely hit a particular level and it's not going to really get any better when you're able to take, I mean, I think kind of a unique hack of taking the phrases. Like you can take the formulaic phrases and get like, you know, you can even almost use up the source and learn how to phrase it differently and phrase it a little bit fresher. So you're not necessarily reinventing the wheel, but you can rephrase something a little bit better and use that. So, I mean, you're. I mean, is it exactly the formula? I mean, if you're quibbling over definitions, you could say yes. But if you're rephrasing it and giving it and sounding like an expert in your market, you know, it's gonna probably sound a lot different than like XYZ phrase. XYZ phrase. XYZ phrase.

Right.

So, you know, I think there is something to it, those formulas. But again, you know, like Josiah said in the start, you have to grow beyond it. And I think that does come down to good writing and understanding, because good creative writers, you know, they can completely phrase something new. I mean, they, like the, you know, they may be using like a Claude Hopkins formula, but they're saying it in a brand new way, even though it has a lot of the nuts and bolts of the structure. And that's how you're going to develop your skill to get more money, you know, to probably see things a little bit more creatively. Like, your creative talents will probably expand a little bit that way versus I'm just going to stick with this one set way. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but at least that's kind of how I. In my experience, that's how I see it.

Nabilia, does that, does that make sense to you?

What do you think, Stefan? I think it makes sense to me, but I'd love to get your input.

On it for sure. No, yeah, I totally, I totally agree. I mean, I think the big, the big thing for me of RNBC is I just, I, I was seeing so many copywriters be really inconsistent and get lost and not know where to start and what to do. And then they'd write something and sometimes it would be successful, sometimes it wouldn't. And so I basically wanted to create like a, how do you say, a uniform standard of essentially, like if you do this, like, you're generally going to write like pretty good sales copy. Right? It's like it's rarely going to suck. It's going to be pretty good sometimes it might do quite well. But I mean, to be super clear, I don't. I think people. I agree with Jim. Basically, I think people should then grow beyond rnbc. I think they'll still use parts of that framework. Like, I think the research process is really helpful and strong. You may add to it and that's, that's great. But it's like a great, you know, there's some good stuff in there. I think the mechanism stuff is really important. I mean, a lot of my big ideas come from mechanisms, but especially like the copy outline itself. Like, you know, generally, like if you're writing a VSL or a sales letter, like you are going to. It's going to follow a similar structure every time. But like, that doesn't mean like, you know, the great copiers aren't going by and just sort of check, check, check, check, like, right. Like it's a great. But it's great for getting people to that level. Like to get somebody from like a, you know, like a four to like an eight. I think RBC is like really good for that, you know, and even someone who's, who's like sometimes like an A9 and sometimes like a3 because they don't know what the hell is going on, which is really common. You see a lot of times you look at one thing from a writer and you're like, man, this was great. And you look at like another thing and you're like, this is awful. And it's because they just don't have a structure. So I think it can be very valuable for consistency. But then I do. Yeah, I totally think once you're there, you know, you can start to experiment. I mean, I look at like artists, like painters and stuff like that.

Right?

You sort of have to learn to sort of imitate. You study the masters. You sort of, you know, you're imitating verse. But then as you really understand everything, like foundationally, then you start to like you. You know, you go through your different periods. Right. You know, you can be like Picasso or whoever it is, going through different periods and trying different things. So I'm actually super aligned with Jim on that. And yeah, so that's what I think.

Thanks, guys.

Cool, man. Thanks for the question. Awesome. Cool. So, yeah, next we have Isaac with a cool question around ethical reconciliation. Let's say, Isaac, I'm going to bring you on. Where are you? Or maybe Isaac's not here. Oh, he's here. His hands raised. Perfect. What's up, Isaac? How you doing?

Hey, I guess. How you doing? So, yeah, my, My question is I like to keep them kind of to the. The overall nature of the call. And in this case, it seems like, you know, the ethics of copy and marketing and morality and such and the. I've gotten started in a niche that I'm focusing on for the next six months, which is the survivalist prepper kind of niche. And a lot of it is. Is focused on preparing for something that, of course, is not happening now in the context that they mention it. And I can see how that could be kind of a. A moral quagmire for some people. It isn't for me yet, but I kind of want to head it off at the pass. And for me, it's kind of like the argument of, for example, heaven. If you're religious, it makes all the.

Sense in the world.

If you're not, then it can sound like a bit of a bait and switch. So in terms of marketing, how would you kind of, I guess, react to that? What is your response to that kind of situation?

So, I mean, are you implying, or. Here's how I. Sorry, I'm seeing the question as, you know, so obviously there's a survivalist prepper sort of thing, but there's a line where it's probably maybe selling too much doom and gloom in some sort of future utopia. That's borderline. Yeah, I mean, I don't. I guess it's like selling some utopia away from it. Doom, gloom. Is that how I'm hearing it or.

Yeah, it's like, I mean, the fact that we continue to not have nuclear winters and riots happening next week and whatnot is, in a sense, kind of, I guess you could say, disproving the value of some. Some of the offers, but at the same time, like, it's also based on a future case. So, you know, I guess it's like an insurance kind of idea.

Right. Well, I mean, I know the interesting thing is, I know what Is it that during the pandemic? I think those like survivalist bunkers.

People.

Who had them at all various different income levels, you know, I think there's like a. Is there one out here in Colorado where, you know, the super wealthy and the people have stayed there for like a year? You know, that is, it's a very. That's a very tough question, right, because it's almost kind of like a grain of sand. It's like how many grains of sand is then when is it bad? Because a lot of these survivalists and preppers, like something like Covid kind of pays off for them, you know, and obviously if they see the rioting in the streets like we had last summer, that that, that makes them scared. And I don't necessarily mean. I don't know that market incredibly well. Like, my dad was into it a bit, but I don't think he was like scared of dying. Like, I hear a lot that people, they're scared of dying. I mean, at least he wasn't that. So I think there is something about, I think in human nature about protecting the person. And I'm probably going to speak because I'm. Like I said, I don't know the market incredibly well, so it's going to be tough for me to put on the morals. But I think there's an element where people want to feel protected. They want to, you know, they want to protect themselves, they want to protect their family.

Right.

And there is something very, I believe, honorable in that. And obviously there. We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. Like the pandemic, you know, all suddenly a bunch of people went into their survival bunkers, you know, or they see these riots and they're scared to go down in the cities, you know, and cities are kind of a mess right now. So I think that there is a matter of, you know, finding that where it's not quite selling them, like the end is near, kind of like someone on the street corner that they will die. But there is an element of, you know, of walking them into like pandemics, you know, cities. All of these things are going around, you know, are going crazy. But there is something to protecting your family. There is something to, you know, being prepared. You know, you don't know if the end of day, the end of days is coming. We don't know when it's coming, but that doesn't, you know, so there's a matter of like the nuclear bomb is happening tomorrow. I think there's a matter of kind of leaning into that family protectiveness, I think, is probably an area where it's a little bit more on the ethical side versus leaning so much into doom, gloom, and hell. You know, you can obviously show that sort of winter is coming, but I think there's probably a line there that'll probably make itself apparent. I mean, I know that answer might seem a little bit ambiguous, but I imagine there's sort of a gut feeling there, like, this is just a bit too much. I mean, I don't know if that helps answer it or not, but at least it's kind of what popped up in my head.

Yeah, it was more just to get your reaction to it because it seemed kind of like a. Just a curious question to pose given, like, you know, what you guys were talking about. But, yeah, that's. That's very helpful. I appreciate it.

Oh, thank you, Isaac.

Cool. Thanks, Isaac. We're gonna do two more questions, and then there's to that in the chat or in the Q and A, maybe it'll kind of rapid answer, but let's go to. We'll do Jazz and Chad, and then for auction, Samantha, I'll just answer yours probably pretty quickly here at the end. But, Jazz, we're going to bring you on. Are you here? There we go. What's up, Jaz?

Hey, what's up, guys?

Yeah, so, yeah, pretty straightforward question. Like, what are some examples of companies that you've seen? They advertise the truth, and the truth wasn't sexy, but it still appealed to a mass audience. Like, one example I can think of is P90X. It's a super intense hardcore workout program. They didn't hide the fact that it was hardcore workouts, but it still did extremely well. But do you guys have any other examples of companies that did that successfully?

Do you mean, like, they advertise it, truth aggressively, or just advertise it? The kind of the truth?

Because a lot there's a saying in marketing where it's selling what they want.

Given what they need.

So they might stretch the claims in the marketing message. It might not always be honest, but there's other companies who don't shirk away from that. They tell you the truth upfront, and somehow it still works. So I'm wondering if you guys have seen, just from your experience, any companies who. They didn't lie about anything in the marketing. In fact, they probably featured the truth, and it still did extremely well to a vast audience.

Right. So one example that I. That I use a lot, and granted they've, you know, they change their advertising But Tuft and Needle did a really good job. Like, they have a video, you know, where they, they explain their about story and it's. And it's there. They have. They baked in the themes into their site as well, where they really kind of slay the mattress industry. You know, like, I'm the sleep specialist. I mean, they just completely kneecap these people. But then they show, you know, there's something like, here's the mattress, we're going to deliver it. You know, they completely show how the mattress industry works, which is a unique angle for. For sales. Right. But they show like the reason why you're getting the sleep specialist or, you know, or the delivery guy. So they kind of show like, okay, here's all that. Here's what we did differently. Right. You know, the mattress gets delivered to you. They don't really go on, you know, the super luxury thing. They just kind of go on simplicity and a decent night's sleep. So that's definitely one company to pay attention to that I noticed that does.

It.

Shockingly, I think. I mean, they're growing and they definitely have a huge fan base. So I think it's something to pay attention to and I use it myself. So this company called Starting Strength, when they just say that lifting things are hard, whatever that does certainly appeals to people. I actually think Justin was doing that. I don't know if he's still doing it or not, but he, you know, so there's certain elements of what they do is like, look, what we do is hard. It's not CrossFit, it's not cardio, it's not this, it's not that. It's. You're going to put heavy things on your back and lift it. But, you know, they're getting people from, you know, her experienced lifters to someone who's 90 years old. So whatever that is qualifies people. I'm trying to think of other. There's a couple. I mean, there's certain, you know, SAS companies that sort of do it, but I can't. Trying to think of like the name off the top of my head.

Well.

As an event, I'm not sure, you know, what kind of drew me to them. There's, you know, so this would kind of be like event marketing, I guess you could call. It would be a company called or not a company, but an event called microconf. The marketing has probably since changed with COVID but they had a huge thing. So it's an SAS software event. So you know how like, you know, we kind of have traffic and conversion. They said our message, we're not going to pitch yet. We're not going to do this. That isn't our mantra. That isn't our belief. We're not going to. This is for us. And it pulls in a good amount of people. They host two events at once. So they go with we're not xyz. But their marketing has changed a little bit with Microconf trying to use as direct marketers the clothing company Taylor and Stitch I think is fantastic back end marketing. They kind of see you need to buy something but they will tell you like we have delays happening, why you're getting this delay. We have this and they do it in a very elegant way that it's not trying to pressure you into something. But they have great marketing to pay attention to and trying to pull up other ones.

Yeah, I'm trying to think, I mean, I don't know.

Oh, Scott Young with rapid learner. I think he's really good. He has actual real scarcity. He says what we're not. You know that this is going to be a lot of work. So you know, of course will be something like look, this is an intense seven week course. If you think you're just going to look at a module, you're not going to get anything out of it. So it's going to be a lot of work and you're going to have to get engaged. He does a really good job of that. He does it on the sales pages. And also when you first get the course that's kind of if you're not into this, get out. I noticed Ramit Sethi also does that as well. If you think this is xyz, it's just not for you. Like we're not going to accept you, we're not going to take you in, you know, forget it. So there's a couple more examples.

Cool. Jaz, was that helpful?

Yeah, that was super helpful. What was the name of the mattress company?

Jim Tuft and Needle. And I would say go to their About Me page and there's like a YouTube video. It's just, it's just awesome. And they used to kind of lead with that a little bit more but now since they're more known, they kind of go more the social proof.

Side.

All right. Tough tin Needle.

Yeah.

T U F T and Needle.

Okay. T U F T and Needle.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

I really appreciate it man. Thank you so much.

Oh, thank you.

Cool. Thanks for the question, Jaz. Okay, sweet. So then Chad, we're going to go to you, Mr. Chad Fahlmann.

Let's.

Let's let him talk here. What up, Chad?

Hey, brother. How you doing?

Good, how you doing?

Good, man. Good to be seeing you. Within a couple months.

Absolutely. It'll be great.

Wonderful. Jim, I have been a fan for the past month and a half and you have phenomenal hair. Crazy jealous. I could not come out of the fan closet because I didn't know the dynamics between you and Stefan. So if shit goes down, I got my boys back. Right. But I do like you a lot and I love the articles that you published, like with the Guru in particular. Very seldom until I read that had I read something that was just a good piece of literature over overall and you really captured it. So I want to first give you that compliment.

Oh, thank you. Yeah. And I'm flattered to read the whole article. So they're long, but yeah, thank you very much.

It was well done. And I know that you're a fan of Ogilvy, as am I, as I think most copywriters are. However, we would also say, well, he's outdated, Right? That's the common criticism. And now you counter, you say, we remember Rolls Royce, we remember the companies that he worked. Which is true. So that being the case, reading his style now with Rolls Royce, for example, very feature benefit driven, he's making points. Do you think that style holds up today or are you referring more to the spirit by which he wrote?

So I do think his style holds up today. And I'll preface like I know, as you probably know, I'm also a big fan of Hopkins, but Ogilvy was. I mean, his writing was just incredible. So it's a very timeless writing style. Obviously there's certain updates. There might have been certain cliches or something that he used that was more time timely then that wouldn't make sense now. And that's kind of part of having your finger on the pulse. But if you look at his Rolls Royce ad, how I see it is he presents it as an expert tour guide. So the words and the phrases that he is using, it really just paints what the car is. He's coming across as an expert. And that style does work if you need to pitch something. Because at the time, like when Rolls Royce was coming out, Cadillac in the American mind was the ultimate premier car. Rolls Royce, not so much. So he had to overcome issues of it's only snobs drive it. You need a chauffeur to drive it. It's probably difficult to drive. I mean, Rolls Royce has Gone back and forth with quality issues. I think they largely have fixed it, but around then, it was kind of, what is this car? Am I going to get it? And should I have gotten a Cadillac? So he kind of overcomes that by paying up the craftsmanship. So his writing style, which I do believe is Thomas does work. So he has both that sense in that spirit. But it is a matter of, you know, he did that through an enormous amount of research, and he's a fantastic writer, so he knows how to use language and words to present things, like an expert tour guide. And it certainly works. I mean, if you look at. You know, it's funny because I know earlier I mentioned I have a few people who worked in, you know, like, for the Ogilvy agency, and they left and they said, you know, like, Coca Cola or something will come on, and they want to do, like, the social justice ad, and they do this, and all of a sudden, sales just tank. So what do they pull up? They pull out something from, like, the Ogilvy or Hopkins playbook, or they use, like, the Ogilvy playbook, and they try to get the nuts and bolts and then present that, and then finally the sales come back. So it's probably like when we might not be paying as much attention to a, you know, like a Coca Cola ad, but we see it when it's like, Coca Cola, you know, eradicates, you know, injustice in the world, whatever. But when we see it, you know, and they have, you know, there's something about, like a Hathaway kind of story feel to it or, you know, some sort of taste or something or enjoyment they're pulling out of an Ogilvy playbook. Granted, corporations are doing big branding things, but there's something to that where it has lasted. They might be adding a modern flair on it, but they're not. They're just rephrasing it and reusing it in a different. In a more modern or I guess that would make sense in a modern way. They're not trying to, like, as Nabil says, reinvent the wheel too too much. They're just getting it so it makes sense for today. So there is something to that. I mean, Ogilvy was. Was a. Was just an incredible stylist, and he had such a way with words and also had an aesthetic eye. So there is something where that does work today. It's just, you know, you have this three. You have to see it through the lens of today. That Rolls Royce ad was, you know, whatever, 50, 60 years ago. Now it's Just, you know, through the lens of today. But his nuts and bolts absolutely still work.

Yeah. I certainly admire Ogilvy for his ability to go through that research and find that unique angle. And I think, you know, I guess if I'm flexing, that is one of my strengths. But I see it in him, too, and I think that's something that can set a lot of copywriters apart. And I'm also a fan of Vogleby. I'm a fan of, you know, I'm enraptured by the whole agency dream, kind of. So there's that sensational side of me. Now, the second question I have is, you're not a fan of Eugene Schwartz? I want to say Claude Hopkins. Yes. Now, you don't really believe in the market awareness. You don't speak to that so much. Presently, I have a client. It's a medical alert device wholesaler or service provider, rather. And there's two audiences. There's seniors who have yet to fall. They really haven't taken consideration for the risk. And then the second audience are seniors who have fallen, and it's 100% of their focus. So they're both seniors. But I would certainly say the market awareness is different there. Can you speak to that?

Yeah.

So to clarify, there is certainly market awareness.

So.

My critique of Schwartz is people, you know, the five stages. It's very arbitrary, right. I'm not necessarily saying it's all wrong, but there's kind of a sense of like, here is this, why stage one, stage two, stage three, Then they don't. Then you must rely on discounts. There's kind of this following element with Schwartz, and I think people. My critique against it is people over obsess on it.

Right.

I think Stephan knows a grunt. You know, when you're writing an ad, you're not sitting there like, well, are they in two or three? Well, geez, if it's three, like, you're really thinking, first you want to be thinking like, okay, here's where they are at and here's how we can solve it. Right. So you're not really paying. You want to be aware of how much. I mean, I always believe you want to know exactly. Like, part of their experience of any market is how much. What kind of marketing are they getting? How much are they aware of it? What kind of experiences are they getting with other product? So that is kind of their awareness. But it's on you to present something, how you differentiate from that. So, you know, if they are getting. I mean, that is something you can Use one side of your market. Right. Like you mentioned, really, you know, they're scared of a certain thing and they get advertised a certain thing you can kind of use, you know, if they're very aware of that advertising. Not that, you know, they're just sitting around remembering the ads, but they. They are kind of aware of the messaging. You can say something along the lines of, okay, you're constantly told xyz, right? Here's why they're telling you that. But here's what we do. They do great with that, but that's not us, and here's what we do. So there is a matter of not obsessing over what stage they're in. It's understanding where they are at and then kind of meeting them where they're at versus trying to kind of, all right, this guy's in four or five. You know, it's being a little bit more direct. At least that's how I feel it. And that might not sound tangible, but it's hitting them much more directly versus I'm going to sit and worry about if they're in stage four or five. Is that making sense?

Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. So if we take the first audience that has yet to fall, they're still tangentially aware of the solutions that exist. Maybe they don't think they need it, but they think this is the status quo. So your suggestion is that more or less, you need a unique mechanism or an idea to differentiate yourself.

Right. Like, I mean, I think. I mean, I, you know, if you're familiar with me, you know, I've been mentored by Oren Claps. I'm a big kind of believer of that big idea. And part of that big idea is meeting them where they are at in the first part. And then the second part is kind of winter is coming.

So.

And by meeting them where they are at, that's kind of. You're trying to encapsulate where, how. So that is kind of, I guess you could say how aware they are. But you're meeting like, look, just as you said, you're aware of solutions or XYZ companies or whatever tell you falls may happen, but people who don't prepare or people who don't pay attention to make two mistakes or something like that. So you have to kind of give this winter is coming. You don't say winter is coming out. People are like, winter is coming. No one's going to get that. But you have to meet, like, here are two things you got to be aware of or her two issues or something like that. Something that paints creates a cognitive dissonance. So you're kind of getting them interested in your solution. And that may be a mechanism. I don't think every single product lends itself to a mechanism, but it may be a mechanism. It may be more of a service, but yeah, you meet them where they're at, you kind of create a cognitive, you raise awareness of what they might be concerned about is either closer, you know, to them like a falls. Like if they're close to getting the falls. You kind of, you know, phrase it that that's going to happen soon. You know, it's like, you know, you know, it's, it's in 10 years or whatever, how ever it works in the market and then you show how you can solve that. Is that, is that clear or.

I think so. I'm going to be watching the, the replay of this anyway. So that does answer my question. Thank you very much, man. Appreciate it.

Thanks, Chad.

Thank you, Chad. Sweet. Now we had two other ones in the Q and A, but I just answered those via text. So Jim, as we're about to wrap up here, how are for people who want more Jim Claire in their lives, what are the best things for them to do? I mean, I've guessed your website, you're on Twitter. You know, what are the ways for people.

I just saw, yeah, the little chat thing pop up. What happened to kickasscopy.com that's a site that is. I haven't done anything with that one. So my site, jim claire.com, clair you know, I'm on there. I'm just kind of, I just started doing, talking to my email list a little bit more about reading. I'm getting a lot of feedback on that. So, you know, little more emails there. I'm on Twitter fairly often, so my handle there is just Find Jim Claire Instagram. I barely use it. It's like just kind of videos of me lifting. Not really a ton on there. But yeah, I'd say my website and Twitter is probably where you can find me the most. And I'm a little more active on Twitter and my email list is getting a little more active and I have a paid subscription site that I'm building out a newsletter on. It's going to talk right now. I'm in the copy phase of it but you know, it'll probably go through some critical thinking which I think is really important for research and everything. So that's, that's where I'm at.

Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. I would encourage everyone to go check out Jim's website, follow him on Twitter, engage, interact, all of that. You put a lot of great stuff into Chad's point. Like, you know, I was looking through your site prior to this interview. I've been there before, but going back, I'm like, man, there's just so much. Such a good writer and so many.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

The long article. So I got a prep. Yeah, they are long, but people read them, so thank you.

Yeah. Other than that, we'll basically wrap up. Jim, is there anything else you want to say to people who are with us or who are going to watch the replay or listen on itunes? Any final messages or anything that you want to share?

Well, I got to thank Nabil again. You know, he encouraged me to touch base with you. I mean, I know a lot of people think I didn't see us as really having a beef. I know we butted heads, and I guess you could call that a beef.

But.

You know, I'm very honored, to be honest. Not a lot of people, you know, me speaking out against certain personalities or certain gurus. They don't really engage back. So I was very. I like that you engaged back. I like that you had me on here. So, I mean, I have an enormous amount of respect for that, and I do like the RNBC method. I do think it's valuable. I mean, I think there's a lot of copy courses out there that are just terrible. But I think, you know, I haven't been through the RNBC method. I've seen your sales letter, so I kind of have an idea, I think, of how it's. How it's working, but people who I respect have praised it, and I, you know, I take their words with, you know, very seriously. So, yeah, I'm just really happy to be here, and I'm happy to kind of speak to the audience. And I was kind of or might still be very hated. You know, I'm the number one hater, so. But, yeah, it was just. It was great to be on here and take questions and chat with you.

Awesome. You know, I really appreciate it. And I think that's the thing. I mean, there's always gonna be haters anyway. But, you know, at the end of the day, like, it's so clear, you know, your love of marketing. And that's what, you know, I'm glad you were able to show people that. That it's not like you're some curmudgeon who's sort of like, you know, oh, like, I hate all this. Right. It's like, it's not about that. It's, you know, you can, it's honestly just doing it from a more intellectual and, and, you know, more intelligent way, really, which is what you're, you're teaching people to do. So. Awesome, man. Well, yeah. Thank you. I'm honored you came on. For everyone who joined us live, we appreciate you joining us live. If you watch the replay on YouTube, leave a comment, let us know, you know, what you thought. If you listen on itunes, make sure to you're subscribed, leave a review if you want, all that kind of stuff. And other than that, we'll wrap up. But, yeah. Jim, thanks again. Really appreciate it.

No, thank you.

Awesome.