[RTB:E5] “Change Equals Growth” - The Road to a Billion with Stefan Georgi

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi, and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call in radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. The reason for the name the Road to a Billion is twofold. One is because I am going to reach a billion dollars in sales this year for both my own products and products where I've written copy for clients. And also because my goal is to have a direct impact on the life of a billion people over the next 20 years. And really nowadays, I'm hoping that's going to be 10 or five years. I keep accelerating that timeline. We're going to start taking calls in about five minutes from now. And the way it works is that we're going to put your. You'll put your questions into the Q and A section and zoom here. And then my good friend Ed Ray, who just had a birthday yesterday, is going to be reviewing these questions and feeding them to me. And, Ed, you want to go ahead and say hi and maybe share something that you've learned as you're a year older and wiser now at the ripe old age of 20.

Oh, man. Oh, dude, I'm over the hill. I'm over the hill already. That's how it feels. So. Well, first time, Ed, I help make people's funnels Facebook friendly so they can get some of those Zuckbucks. Yes, Zuck bucks. It's real currency. So I think one of the biggest things that I've really learned this past year, which I'm definitely gonna do a whole Facebook post about it today, is just to really enjoy the process. Like, chill out. Just enjoy and trust the process. That's really the number one thing I could definitely share with people because I've spent my whole life living in the future. You know, I would always be looking for that next client. I'm looking for that. The next thing that's gonna make me happy, the next thing that's gonna finally, you know, make me feel like I'm good enough. But it's like, why? Why can't I be good enough right now? Why can't I love who I am but also love who I'm becoming? Why can't I love what I'm doing and then love what I'm going to do? Why can't I love the struggle? Because looking back at it now, the struggle is actually the most fun Part because it's like, I don't know, maybe that's just like the daredevil in me, but it's like you don't know if that client is gonna land, which is like the most important thing in your world, and you don't know if you're gonna eat tomorrow. I mean, thankful I didn't have that issue. But, like, some people do experience that, and that's just part of the grind. And that is something to enjoy because we learned so many incredible lessons by going through hardship. We learned so many incredible lessons by not feeling good enough. We go through so many incredible lessons by feeling rejected.

And.

This past year, I've definitely learned to really enjoy the process, appreciate it, and love my life as it is and keep moving forward so it'll be how I want it to be.

That was fantastic. That was very, very wise. Wise beyond your 20 years and amazing. Really, really good. I think I couldn't agree more, honestly. Like, oh, and by the way, Ed says, please give me the hosting powers. So I'm going to do that too. But no, Ed, that was tremendous. Really good. Let me make Ed a co host. There we go.

No, John, I'm not available for bar mitzvah.

Sorry, Ed. Well, cool. We'll talk more about what you've learned probably on today's show. So we'll start taking calls in just a couple minutes. Here again, put them in the qa and Ed will, you know, when you submit a question, Ed will call your name, give some background on your question, then he'll unmute you. You'll have a chance to explain the conte in the background of your question in more detail. And then we'll talk through it together and help to provide insights or, you know, if possible, a resolution to your question. So I see we already got stuff in there in the. In the QA section. Already have questions coming in, which is awesome. And we'll get to as many as we can in the next hour and 20 minutes or so. Before we do the thing I want to kind of talk about today and what I'm sort of been thinking about is really about embracing change and that that's a reality and that, like, you can fight it or embrace it. So this came about for a couple of reasons. I'm reading a book called 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by. I'm gonna butcher his name, so I'm gonna quickly Google it. It's the same guy who wrote Sapiens, if you've ever. Yuval Harari. Yeah. So dude is very is brilliant. Sapiens is a really good book. And then this one about 21 lessons for the 21st century is essentially all of the ways that society and life and technology, how all these things are gonna change in the 21st century and how our lives are gonna change. And he talks about, you know, I'm not super deep and I'm like only a hundred pages into it or whatever, but he like talking about a lot of automation, right, and AI and algorithms and how they're going to make increasingly more decisions for us. And a lot of it to me is honestly scary and anxiety inducing. An example he talks about and is totally true is how as people trust algorithms to make more and more decisions, then your freedom of choice or the illusion of freedom of choice kind of goes away. So for example, an algorithm in the future could conceivably tell you what career to have or who to marry or all this kind of stuff. And I personally don't like that. I don't really. That future is scary to me and I'm resistant to it. But he also points out people who say, oh, we'll never do that. He mentions like an example like Google Maps, right, And how the first time you use like Google and it tells you to go right instead of left on your commute to work and you say, no, I go left and you go left, you get in traffic and you miss like an important meeting and the next day you follow the algorithm and go right and you avoid the traffic and make it in time to the, to the meeting. And from then on you start actually following it. And as crazy as it is, he cites an example from a few years back where some, I think they were Japanese tourists were in Australia and they drove their car into the ocean. And the reason why is because they were trying to get to some obscure like island. And the driver, who's a 21 year old woman said how she's like, well, the map, Google Maps told me to just keep going that way, so I just followed it. And she's like, literally drove into the ocean. And it sounds crazy, but there's actually all these documented cases of people driving into bodies of water because their Google Maps told them to do it. So that part is like gnarly and not cool and frankly it's scary. But that being said, we also have to look at for the fact that change and innovation are going to happen no matter what. That doesn't mean we have to blindly accept whatever, because the scary question that gets raised is, is it's not just the algorithms, but it's who controls the algorithms, who programs it, and the people who do that, like the Googles, Facebooks, whatever the world, whatever of the world, like, may, then they can control us. So there's a scary component to it. But regardless, transformation and change is going to happen, and it's been happening for forever. So you can't just sit there and purely resist stuff because you don't like change. You have to figure out a way to adapt as well. If you look at the inception of the telegraph, for example, there's another book I read back in the day called the Information, and it's an actual history of information and how it's evolved over the years and all this stuff. When the telegraph came out, people thought it was at the end, like, oh, no one's gonna even have communications. No one's even gonna talk anymore because now you can just telegraph somebody. Nobody will even have in person conversations people were scared of, like the telegraph, which seems so quaint and cute today compared to cell phones, where we said the same thing and then we'll say it about whatever new technology comes out. So there's always going to be new technologies coming out and we're always going to be resistant. I think about the Uber drivers. Sorry, I think about the taxi drivers in New York who were committing suicide when Uber was able to come in and start taking up, like, ground in New York. And it's really, it's very sad. Anyone killing themselves, the loss of life, it's always really sad. But it's also mind blowing to me because it's like, it's like you can't just like. Because whatever you were doing was, like, protected for a period of time. Like, and now it's not. Like, and then your only option now is to kill yourself. Like, I, you know, that's crazy. Like, that's, that's. It's very hard for me to comprehend that. And I think now about what's going on with COVID and the economy shutting down again, and the fact that American Airlines may be about to lay off 8,800 flight attendants. Cirque du Soleil just laid off 3,300 employees. A lot of people are gonna get laid off and lose their jobs. And they can either sit there and think about how they're a victim or they got screwed, or how events were beyond their control and they can sort of let that dictate the rest of their life, or they can embrace the moment and embrace new opportunities like freelancing, e commerce, digital marketing, learning new skills, things of that nature and they can adapt with the times and leverage technologies and continue to thrive. And I just think it's really important to. As we go through this phase we're at as a society where we really need to adapt and to embrace these things. So that's kind of just it for. For today, but for the monologue, I guess. But I just think it's like an important point. Something to keep in mind is like, there's no, like, resistance rarely is valuable or gets you anywhere. You know, it's much better to kind of adapt with the times again, not blindly, but to at least, like, you know, at least be open to it. And otherwise, you know, you get stuck. I mean, even with copy. Like, just one more point. Like, think about copy. You've got all people who did, like infomercials, who I've talked to who are like, struggling with infomercials. And you know, you're like, oh, you could just go online. Like, online. I don't know how to do that. It's like it's not. It's like not that hard, you know, Like, I just. You write a script, you shoot a video, or you put it up as like a designed letter, you send traffic to of a checkout page and you sell stuff. Like, it's not that hard, but for somebody. And I know guys who used to do infomercials who have adapted and who do great. And I know guys who. And girls who used to do infomercials and who like, just sort of gave up and went and got like a job as an insurance salesperson because times changed. And same thing with direct mail. Direct mail still works, but, like, I know people who, you know, crush it direct mail. And they're like, why, you know, I can't do this digital stuff? It's such bullshit, right? Like, it's not like it's not hard. You just have to. And as soon as you actually do something, as soon as you take that step, it becomes way easier. Because the big important thing is like, this fear of the unknown is always like, way greater than the actual struggle will be once you embrace the unknown. Another example, I talked to somebody yesterday who was afraid of embracing working with affiliates for his stuff. And I told him about how with my first self supplement company, the first year, we grossed a million dollars back in 2015 and lost 200,000. And I thought I was going to have to quit and go be a copy chief and whatever. And part of it was because I was so afraid of working with affiliates. And I was thought, you know, I gave all these excuses that were not at all based on any experience, was just kind of like, whatever fears I had, I use those excuses. But then I looked at the model of what I was doing and said, wow, this isn't sustainable. Something has to change. And then I embraced affiliates, kind of developed relationships, figured out how to work with them, how to not work with a bunch of fraudulent, shady people. And the next year, I did 23 million. So literally 23x of business in one year, because I decided to, instead of resisting the scary unknown, to just embrace it. So I just think it's a really important and vital principle and I wanted to share with you guys. And with that being said, Ed Ray, let's. Let's jump in. Let's answer some questions.

Let's do it.

All right, let's do it.

So first up, we have the legendary Sean Caesar asking, will mastering emails make writing long copy or direct response easier?

Cool. What's up, Sean? Hi, again. Thank you so much. Yeah, always good to have you. You're a friend of the show, as they would say in the radio business. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

That. That's a pleasure. Yeah.

My question was that, like, we know that email is a short version of the direct response. If mastering emails are like my. Well, my main question was I should start with emails first and ignore the long sales copy or sales pages and.

Master emails first, then get comfortable with.

Them and go to direct response. Or just go with direct response and learn with mistakes.

Yeah, I think that's a really good question, and I think there's not a single answer. The thing about mastering email first is that it is easier. It's easier to write good emails, and they're shorter. There may be like 100 words to 250 words. So it's less time consuming. If you look at it from, like a perspective of an hourly rate, it can get you to a pretty good hourly rate really quickly. So say you charge $50 an email or $40 an email, and you can write an email in a half an hour. Then you can essentially make $80 an hour, which, you know, if you've been. We're making $20 an hour or $15 an hour before. That's a really nice raise. And of course, longer term, you can charge for like a couple hundred. Couple hundred dollars for an email and potentially make 400, $500 an hour, stuff like that. So there's. That part's awesome. And it's easier to master. But the challenge is there's more competition, probably, like, there's more people who can do emails because they're easier and it's not as hard to master. So if you're an email specialist, there's always going to be opportunities, but there's going to be more competition versus if you get really good at long form sales letters, then there's lots of people out there writing long form sales copy, but not very many of them are good. So if you get really good, then you can command way higher prices and fees and you'll have less competition ultimately. Like, I don't have competition. If somebody wants like the best copywriter like in the world to write something for them, like, they come to me. Not that I'm, I am the best in the world, but like I'm one of the best out there who will still take on clients sometimes. So I have very little competition. People just come to me. So I can see it working both ways, I guess. Where are you at right now? Do you have some clients already? Are you kind of looking for your first client still? No, I don't have. So just, I said what should I start with?

Because I have learned the basics and doing some samples and I thought, should.

I start with email or Dutch response? Well, I think direct response is also, you know, emails are also direct response because even in an email you're probably telling them to click a button or you know, take an action or whatever it is. So I wouldn't really differentiate it between email or direct response because I think your emails are still going to be direct response. But what are you more interested in? What is more exciting to you?

Me, the darker spawn or the sales pages?

Like I, I fell in love more when I'm writing them than the emails. Like I, I enjoy them more as, as Ed said, like I enjoy them more so much.

Like when I write the, the sales.

Pages, especially the research, the, all this stuff, that makes sense. So yeah, I, I mean, and again, I don't think it has to be in either. If I were me, I would focus on getting good at long form sales pages since that's what you're more excited about. And generally when you have more passion about something, you're going to be more successful. It's a pretty well established law of the universe. But if opportunities to write emails come along, then I think you can still take those to get experience, get gigs, bring in money and all that kind of stuff. But I think based on that, if I were you, I would focus on long form simply because it's tough, because again, the email stuff is easier. But there's just so many more people doing it that if you can get good at long form, you're just gonna have more opportunities ultimately than with emails. Okay, good. I got it. Like, so I have. This is not just in copywriting, like in all the other areas. If I'm interested in something, even though if it is something that is much easier than that. So I should go for this because I found that when writing emails, like.

It is like, emails take so much.

Fun of the writing process. It is just few words and you.

Gotta deliver one idea and that's it. You can't play with your words.

I can't play with the, like the bullets and the headline and testing and different versions. Like I can do with the salvation. But so many people said no.

Like, they, they make. Made it sound logical that you have.

To start with emails because they are easier. And when you can be good at emails, you will be good at long form copy. But now I got it. Like, I should go for the long form. Thank you so much. No problem. Yeah, happy to. Happy to help. Cool. Ed, who do we have next?

Beautiful. All right, next up we have Mr. Josh Knox. We have some repeat people come back on.

I love it. So we'll get to new folks too. Of course. Don't you worry.

Always, always.

Yeah.

These are just the top voted questions.

Sure.

So Josh Knox asks, what's a good metric for cold traffic conversion on Legion? Short story. I went with your recommendation last week on focusing on Legion, and our current task is producing leads. Just want to know where to focus my attention and how I can move the needle.

What's up, Josh? Hey, how's it going? It's good. You know, last week you had to wait till like the very end for your question. So you're getting in a lot earlier this week. Yeah, I got uploaded this week. It's kind of nice. Thanks, man. People might get sick of me, though, towards the end. I mean, I'm sure they will. Just kidding. Yeah, so started running some tests this week on the lead gen stuff. Changed a little bit of the copy on the site to able to run those tests. And we're. We're converting right now at like two and a half to 2.7% in terms of. Hey, they're filling out the form. They're giving us a legit number for us to call. And then from there, if they fill out our form, we send them into the thank you page that says, hey, you can book a time with us too, to really talk about what we can do for you. And that is if they land on that page, that's converting at like 18%. So it feels like the numbers are.

Good, but I don't really know.

Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, I'm not running a ton of Legion stuff, so. And especially the cold traffic I actually am going to in the coming months with like, the freelancing course I'm doing and other things. So, you know, completing the 18% to, like, book a call out of, like, the people who fill it out, who do kind of submit their information. Seems decent, but you may have done more Legion stuff than I did back from your time with your previous position. So I'd be curious if you have any good kind of numbers or metrics or thoughts on that.

Dude, I'm the same every time. At the end of the day, it's about money in, money out. What's your. How much money do you want to spend to acquire customer? That's all that really matters to me.

Probably way better answer than what I was giving because it makes sense.

What's. Like, what's. What's your cost per acquisition and what is your aov? So if. And he. Josh is on high ticket, right?

It's not high ticket. It's like merchant processing. So it's essentially like where you pass all your merchant fees on to your customer. And I think there's like a startup fee. Josh, like a monthly fee or something like that.

I think he said there's none.

Yeah. So it's not high ticket. It costs you nothing to start with us. We actually save you money. So there's not. That's why it's difficult. And it's difficult for two reasons. Because I don't have any data that tells me what an acquisition cost is for me, because it's always been in the past, boots on the ground sales. So this online sales, I don't have a metric for. I can tell you that on average, each account that we Sign up generates $300 in revenue. It's. It's really net revenue for me or net profit for me. $300 per account that I sign up. So if you take that and multiply that over what a typical agreement would look like, it's 14,000 plus in revenue in net profit. So theoretically, you could say If I spent 13,000 and I made a thousand. Now, that's over time. Right. But I could spend quite a bit of money to acquire somebody so long as they stayed with us long term, which we know they do.

Yeah.

Yeah. Go ahead, edit. Thank you.

So I think find out Your lifetime value and how deep you want to go in the red on acquiring that customer and how big your cash reserves are. So this becomes a bit of a different game from what's a good metric? To how much are you willing to spend to acquire a customer in the long term? And how can you outspend your competitors? Because if you're.

If.

Let's say the average person sticks around for six months. That's. Let's say that's the number. And let's say, you know, over those six months, the average money you guys make from this customer or client is, you know, 300 bucks a month for whatever reason. Okay. Or actually, let's say this bigger account. Let's say a thousand bucks. Okay. So now you know what the LTV is over the first six months. So you gotta ask yourself, how aggressive do you want to be? I think Agora, they spend up. I think it's 60% of total LTV on acquiring a customer. So let's say that you decide that over that six months, that customer is worth a thousand bucks to you, Josh. You'll be willing to spend $600 to acquire them.

Yeah.

So. And when you do that, that's when you can really go balls to the wall and spend more to acquire that customer. That's how you scale up really fast, and that's how you are able to get more customers and far more customers than your competition, because you can outspend them. So if. Because most people in this game, they're worried about being profitable on the front end, that's not the point of the front end. That's not the point of acquiring a customer for the most part. I know Stefan's wincing at me, but.

No, you're. You're. You're right. I'm not. I'm. I'm wincing because I personally prefer to profitably acquire customers on the front end.

That's. That's cool too, right?

But that being said, to your point with Lead Gen, you're completely right. And I put in the chat, I was like, I'm so glad Ed is on this call, because my brain wasn't going in the right direction. I was trying to answer. I can appear like such a straightforward answer, but you're going to. To where the root of it is. Right? Which is if you look at Natural Health Sherpa or Warrior Maid, who both presented at the last Copy Accelerator event, and both of them, I think Natural Health Sherpa is at 70 million a year. Warrior made. I'm not sure what they're at, but they acquire something crazy, like 2,000, 3,000 leads a day, if not more. And even vshread, they're acquiring like, 10,000 leads a day. And they're doing it. And they're not worried about what their lead conversion rate is. They're worried about what's my ROI going to be? Or again, which ROI is essentially, okay, what's my cost per acquisition today, what's my ltv? And then how much money am I comfortable being out? Or how much can I play the spread until those two things align. Because you don't want to be so leveraged for cash that you know you're gonna get money in three months from now or six months from now, but you can't pay the bills today, and you have to shut down, which happens, people. That's the risk of doing it that way. But it's also to Ed's point, Ed is completely, inequivocally, can't talk to them. Inequivocally. Unequivocally. He's right. He's unequivocally right. Unequivocally right. It's really, really, really important. So, I mean, Josh, and you're. Because you're like, you basically are CMO of this company, right? Unequivocally. Jazz. Courtney. Thank you. Yeah, it's just me in the market. That's the title, but it's just me in the marketing department. So I. If I outsource anything, I go to Fiverr to outsource it or I find some other place to do it. Yeah, it makes sense. The good news, too, I mean, there's a lot of, like, lead gen people out there who do a really good job lead gen. So you could always even just go to, like, a, like, outsourcing kind of consult with somebody who's crushing it with lead gen and kind of have them help to optimize your funnels. But again, I think that the metrics are really, you know, what kind of budget do you have? How much are you willing if you really knowing the ltv? Because again, if you think that they're worth a thousand dollars, but your stick rate, the amount of time that people stay is actually only three months. And you think it's nine months or something like that. That obviously changes the economics drastically. But, yeah, I really think that's the way you should be looking at versus. Is this, like, a good conversion rate on, like, the cpl, your cost per lead or whatever it is? Yeah. So, I mean, and I agree with you guys, and I Understand the complete concept of however much it takes to acquire a customer. The reality is we have people stick around for 97% of our clients stick around. So. And they're long term contracts because we take care of them. So the numbers work for us. Like the leads that I have coming through the door right now are costing me 20 bucks, 50 bucks, 100 bucks. That's nothing in terms of the long term value of that customer. So. But I'm trying to figure out like, where are these things? Anyways, I think you guys answered my question quite well. So it's just a matter of what the numbers are on my end. And I just so you know, I've been following Mike. You introduced me to him at the Copy Accelerator event and I traded this one message with him and then he got busy, which is totally understandable. But I'm in his, I'm in his funnel and I get his emails and I like what he has to say because he is about lead gen. He just happens to be. And he is a business to business lead gen, which is essentially what I am. Right. So yeah, he just has a higher ticket offer and I probably would go with Mike if I could outsource at the moment. I'm just not at that stage yet. But I get what you're saying, so thank you. Cool. Yeah. Happy, happy to help Josh come back as well, Ed. Oh, I'll be back every week. Don't you worry about it. Good.

One thing I also want to know just real quick before we get to the next question. For newer listeners and for people who are newer to marketing, a lot of people like to focus on the fancy metrics, the fancy cool numbers. It's like, hey, I have a 2% click through rate, so industry standard for the most. Again, this is a generalization, but let's say industry stands like 1% and someone's like, oh man, this ads crushing. It's got like a 2% click through rate. But if you're spending 500 bucks to acquire a $50 sale and you're not equipped on the back end to deal with that, you're losing money. Sometimes the worst conversion rates can actually bring you the most amount of money. Because what if that lead is far more qualified? So maybe what if you get 0.5% or even 0.4% conversion rate? I mean, CTR click through rate, but you're only spending $10 to acquire that $50 sale because the people who you are bringing in are far more qualified potentially. I'm not saying forget ctr because I Don't know enough about the ads game. But when I'm dealing with clients, that's the only thing I care about.

It's a really good point. I mean, ultimately, money in, money out. Or like, you could look at it as gross profit. It's even the same thing with revenue. You'll see a lot of people who start a new business and it scales. I made this mistake too. But it will scale and they'll do. Oh, my God, we did a million dollars in revenue this month. We did two and a half million dollars in revenue. Like, people get drunk on revenue numbers, and revenue doesn't really mean shit. If you lost money doing it, then what was the point? Even if you weren't particularly profitable and you're not going to be like, you don't have an LTV mechanism in place, like per what we just talked about, then the revenue doesn't really mean it. It's a total vanity metric, right? And there's a lot of. So there's two sides. There's vanity metrics and then there are metrics that maybe aren't purely vanity, but they just aren't the right metrics. Because at the end of the day, you're in business to generate profit. And then what you do with that profit is up to you. You could reinvest, you can hire people, you can fund a nonprofit, you can buy a Lambo. You can do whatever. That's the beauty of capitalism as it exists in this kind of, you know, altruistic good form. And you have like these. This freedom, right? But you have to generate profit. So getting kind of cop and all these, like, random metrics that don't actually aren't indicative of that is a not. It's a real trap to try to be. Avoid. To avoid. I mean, myself, because there's a truck reversing outside, but I don't have air conditioning set up yet. I'm putting air conditioning to the house and the next couple weeks, because it's a beach house. So in California, beach houses, like, they don't have AC a lot because, like, you can just open the windows and get a nice breeze. But if you're recording, yeah, this is sea breeze. The windows open right now. So it's great. But like, then if there's. I'm on a cul de sac. So there's kids, like, skateboarding or trucks backing up, stuff like that. You know, it's a soft flex. It's also like a. I thought the AC was gonna cost like a couple thousand dollars and they were like, oh, it'll be $22,000. So that was a fun, fun surprise. And to be fair, that's two AC units and like a new, like, new piping, all this stuff. But I was not prepared for that. So good times. Anyway, Ed, what? Who we got next? Great.

So we have a question from Kate Vidulich says, hey, Stefan, when you started as a freelancer and got your first big client, what was the process to get started on the project? And do you get payment up front?

What's up, Kate? Oh, hey, Stefan. Good to talk to you officially. Yeah, of course. I know we've interacted on email and Facebook and everything, but I think this is our first time voice to voice. So glad to connect here. We did it. Anyway, I just wanted to ask you, like, when you first got like your, like a big client, someone who, who you were like, oh, shit, I got this person. Oh, sorry if I swore too. I'm not sure if this was a G rated. It's totally fine. I swear quite a bit. Okay, so what was the process like from the moment you put out the number that you charge in terms of your rates to them, saying, okay, cool. What was the process after that? Like, as the freelancer that you went through and. Yeah. Do you get payment up front? Like, I'm just wondering the best, like, way to go about it. Yeah, so I generally. Great question. First of all, I generally. Well, I mean, well, let's think back to like a first big client. But I did what I would normally do, which is I try to get the whole payment up front. Cause I'd rather have the money today and not worry about having to, like, try and collect it or scramble for it later, you know, sometimes. And this probably happened more earlier on too. And even with, like my big clients early on, it'd probably be like a, like a 50, 50. A lot of times there's a little resistance where it's like half up front, half upon completion. If it's like a big client who's trustworthy, I'm totally fine with that. For me personally, it makes no difference. Some people get. Some freelancers have this issue where they get paid all the money up front and then they lose their motivation because I already got the money. I don't. Personally, I think my mindset is tough enough that I'm like, I'm trying to create the best piece of copy I've ever written for every single client, regardless of If I got 100% up front or I got 50% now, and I'll get 50% at the end. So the money that I'm going to get after I finish isn't really a motivation to me. But some people are just more comfortable with doing that as far as getting them to agree, okay, let's move forward. And giving me. Great, perfect. Here's like an invoice, sending them an invoice or figuring out the payment details, getting paid, and then send the expectation of how long it's going to take. So whether it's four weeks or eight weeks or two weeks or whatever it is, here's the time it's going to take, here's what I'm going to be working on, and then really it's basically it. I mean, ideally they're not going to be checking in too much and asking for updates. I have a guy who hired me recently and who he did half up front, half upon completion. I've worked with him previously and I was fine with that. But he checked in. I told him eight weeks and he checked in and was like, hey, it's been three weeks, how's it going? And I was like, hey, I haven't done shit. Because like, I haven't, you know, because I've been. That's why I said eight weeks. It's not gonna take me eight weeks to write it. I just have a bunch of stuff going on. But by giving a longer turnaround time, I can manage like projects better and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I mean, it wasn't too complicated though. I mean, are you. So are you going through that right now with the client or are you sort of just preparing for when it happens? No, I'm going through it now with a client I just put out through the copy accelerator group. Like there was an opportunity and I applied for it and so I was. I mean, I'm just shifting to more freelance copywriting now. I've mostly just written my own offers, but, you know, I'm excited for a challenge doing something different. I just wasn't sure of the process of like, I put out the number and then just, I mean, figuring out the number as well. Do you. A question? Do you charge different rates for different types of sales letters? VSL copy, or is everything just the same? It's like, it's typically the same. I mean, it could be modified a little bit depending on what the project is. But you know, most sales letters are gonna generally be the same length and stuff like that anyway. So, you know, if it was like a mini sales letter that they wanted, like a four to six page thing, then I would, you Know, I would modify my quote based on that. But typically, the way I've taught this a little bit on these calls before, too, is like, I figure out what. What's my hourly rate, how long is it gonna take me to complete the project, how many hours, and then apply that to my hourly. That's how I get my quote, right? So say your hourly rate is $200, and it's gonna take you 10 hours, and it's like $2,000, right. Or if it's taking you like 40 hours, is $8,000. I try and do that as much as I can, within reason or. Well, I guess I have set stuff, but that's kind of the way you can figure it out. But then once I figure out what my hourly rate is for a sales letter or upsell or whatever, then it's much easier just to stick with that than trying to provide, like, really elaborate custom quotes all the time. It just makes life way easier when you're like, this is my rate. So I would really try and, like, have it sort of pretty commodified. Gotcha. Okay. And just one more quick question. Would you consider, like, an 8 to 12 page sales letter as long form, medium form? What sort of length would like. I mean, obviously you'd still follow the method that you teach in order to set up the copy, but would you consider that long form, 8 to 12 pages? I'd probably look at that. Like, medium form. But it's also relative. I mean, I don't know what you charge. So, like, I wouldn't undercut myself, like, because it's sort of like a. Like, it's all relative to, like. So say 24 pages is long form, and I charge, you know, or say, I don't know, say 40 pages is long form, and I charge, like, $50,000. I don't really want to cut it to, like, where I'm only charging a small fraction of that for 8 to 12, so. But maybe it's like half what I would normally charge. Something like that. Maybe. But again, if you're only charging. If you're. I know. Only if you're only charging, say, like $5,000, I don't necessarily think you should go down to 2,500. I probably would just still try to charge $5,000 if the client's big enough, like, to them. Because the money's relative to the client. Right. So if the client. If $5,000 is, like, not a big deal to the client, then charge that. You know, if you think the client is kind of gonna be turned off by that and you really want the gig and you, you know, money's like really important and you want to go down to like 3,000 or 3,500. Like, sure, you can adjust a little bit there, but you know, but, but yeah, I would probably consider it more medium form. Okay, perfect. Now that answers my question as to whether you change the price based off length or anything like that. So that's awesome. Thank you so much, Stefan. I appreciate your help. Yeah, 100%. And I want to give you, Kate, a shout out too, because Kate was one of the freelancers selected for when I had a couple of different clients like pay me and then I hire people from RNBC to do sales letters. And Kate did one for Native Path, which is Chris Clark's company. And Kate Asseltine is part of Native Path team too. And Kate had emailed me back talking about the people who submitted. And she said of she had comments on a couple people, but Kate's was because I had mentioned how I thought yours was really good, Kate. And she said, I agree. She was like, it's a bit aggressive, which is. I'd always rather be aggressive to start. I'm just so aggressive. I knew it was aggressive, but I was like, you know, we gotta. Let's see what happens. I know. Yeah. No. She said, impressive use of copyright techniques. I applaud her for using an angle outside of joint pain. I think it shows that she was looking for an intelligent transition into selling a food product since blood sugar is related to what we drink. Therefore, I think the premise that your coffee could cause because you wrack blood sugar has solid potential as a lead. This is a major health issue of our audience, has a lot of awareness since most of them have current blood sugar issues. However, like, you know, there's. There's some stuff with the aggressiveness in the story, but the point is that she thought it was really good. I thought it was really good. So anyone who watches this and who's looking for a really, really powerful, good, up and coming copywriter, you should reach out to Kate Vitalich, who is I'm talking to right now. Wow, thank you so much, Steph. And I'm glad I got some feedback. I was like, okay, maybe. I know, I've just been busy. I'm gonna get everyone feedback. It's just, dude, I mean, you're doing so many things, but I appreciate that feedback. That's great. 100% so awesome, Kate. Well, I'm glad I could. Glad I could help. Cool. Thank you so much, Stefan. Yep. All right, Adam. All right.

Before we get to the next question, I want to also say that at the end of the day, as a copywriter, especially once you get a bit more experienced, the thing, the trap that most people fall into is like the, you know, the charging per words or charging per hour. At the end of the day, the client doesn't care about how long you work or how long the page is. If you can, if they can get the results they want to get. So it doesn't matter if the pages, you know, if the sales letter is 15 pages or 50 pages, you can charge 5k for both because it gets them the result they want.

Yep.

So keep that in mind.

100%. Cool. So full of wisdom today on the day after your 20th birthday.

Dude, I'm always like this, you just have to, just have to talk more.

And that's great.

Alright, so next up we have Peter Liu and his question is, since we're talking about embracing change, read your monologue. What's your opinion on surrender? Like talked about in surrender experiment? Have you ever had an experience where you surrendered even though you felt like resisting? And how did it turn out?

Peter, what's up, buddy? Hey, how's it going? Good man, how are you? Good, how are you? Great. Happy birthday, Ed. Super, super excited to celebrate with you soon.

Thanks, bro. Appreciate that.

Yeah, so I've read your email on surrender. Like you wrote like I think a.

Month back about how you have a.

Lot more freedom because you're able to surrender. I was wondering if you go a bit deeper on that because when I think about surrender, I hear a lot of really successful people talk about it, but I have like trouble differentiating surrender, especially when you're like in a transition time in your life versus just drifting and hoping something will happen. And because most of like my life the successes came from taking more responsibility as opposed to taking less responsibility. So that's like what's kind of like seeming paradox I don't really get right now. I think that's a great question. To me, surrender is putting in the work, still being strategic, having a plan, putting in the work, but then surrendering to the fact that there's going to be unforeseen variables and that the outcome could go the way you want it to or not. So it's like it's being more in love with the process and less, less in love with the result. To me, that is the key with surrender. It's not sort of surrendering to the winds of life and letting them blow you around like A, like a, like a listless ship on the sea to get kind of like a Homer or Odyssey. But it's more about, you know. Yeah. The process and not the result and being more detached from the outcome. I found that to be extremely powerful. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I have a second slight follow up question to that. Go for it. So, like, in the Surrender experiment, where this like concept kind of comes from, he talks about how he took on like some certain gigs or some certain positions that he didn't feel like taking on, but eventually it kind of worked out and it got him to like a really good place. Has there ever been a point in your life where opportunity has been offered to you, but initially you're like resistant to it, but then you're like, yeah, you know what? Actually I'm gonna surrender to this. I'm gonna see how it turns out. And how did that turn out for you, if that has ever happened? Yeah, it has. You know, to be completely honest with you. So one, I'm really familiar with the book because Ian Stanley talks about it a lot, but I haven't actually ever read it. So I want to just be transparent about that. But for me, as far as, like, normally if I'm resistant to an opportunity, then that is normally for the right reason and I'm talking myself into doing something that I don't want to do and shouldn't actually be doing and I end up regretting it. That's not to say, however, that there aren't instances where you don't still learn things from it or have. There's not a benefit from it. You know, I look at it more as for me, it's like an opportunity that I want to be doing, but something doesn't go the way I expect it to. And then I want to, like, I want to fight that, but I surrender to the fact that it's going differently than I expected and then that outcome has been really good. So to give you concrete examples, if I look at some of the strategic, like the partnerships and things I've had and like the mentorship. So I talk about in the sales letter for my RNBC course, this guy named Yi Yi, who came in was an early mentor of mine. And there were times though, he would drive me crazy because I would write this sales letter that I thought was really good and then he'd say, like, I don't, you know, change this. Don't do this, whatever. He'd, he'd, he'd. I would feel nitpicky or like he or like, I spent all this time working on something, and then him and his partners would be like, oh, we don't want to do it anymore. And I'd get, like, really annoyed and talk about how this guy's the worst, you know? But in reality, he was an amazing mentor that then enabled me to become one of the best copywriters in the world. So. But at the time, I kind of, like, fought it. And then completely transparently, even with Copy Accelerator, which my partner is Justin Goff. And for the first year, I thought Justin was brilliant. I liked him as a person, but as a business partner, he and I are very different. And there was some internal conflict for me. In fact, leading up to right before our first event in Austin, I sent him this long email where it was like, we're not aligned on this. We're not aligned on that. Some business partners get a couple's therapy person. Maybe we should get a person. Because I just feel like I'm not being heard. And it was this whole email I sent to Justin and to which he responded really well and was kind of like, okay, I wasn't aware. How do you feel? And we had a good conversation. But what I realized after that event, which went well, was that rather than me trying to, like, force Justin to operate and be directly aligned with, you know, every. Who I am and what I want, if I could, like, surrender and realize that he brings all these incredible assets and strengths to the table and that I then have my own assets and strengths and we can work together in harmony, in tandem, that we can accomplish. It's actually the end result or outcome is just significantly better. But it took me. I had to. I'm thankful for my experience, because if I didn't have that experience, I probably would have just blown up Copy Accelerator and been like, I don't want to. I don't want to do it. I can't work with Justin. But because, like, I had the experience of realizing I was able to sit and be, like, kind of introspective about it and think about, like, the fact that this could be a strength and an asset and not something that's, like, a problem. It really. And then it just was. It was a complete game changer. And then Copy Accelerator since then has, you know, totally thrived. I'm happy. I just admire Justin all the time. But does that mean we still don't agree on everything? But now I'm not, like, pissed off that we don't agree. I'm like, all right, cool. Like, that's cool. We don't agree, like what? Maybe let me examine my beliefs and then let me get him to examine his. And let's come to like, you know, a good kind of like decision based on that and it turns out to be this huge asset and strength. So that would just be a specific example. So going back, it's a long winded way of saying back to what he talks about in the book. I think we, like, there are times where maybe we're resistant to something because it's a level up, right. So like we don't want to do a project. And the real reason why is because we're scared of, you know, taking a big shot. Because what if we miss? And like that, of course is, you know, we shouldn't be like, right, you have to miss in order to make it and all that kind of stuff. Right. You have to strike, have a bunch of strikes before you hit your home run, whatever sports cliche you want to throw out there. So that's one thing. But if you're like, I don't want to do this partnership for these reasons and they're good reasons, or I don't want to get involved in this venture or this project and you have like really good reasons for it, then I would not get involved in that because I would rather have less resistance. And I think I mentioned this on the previous call, but like what Joe Polish talks about, which is like elf versus half and his criteria for how he evaluates the business opportunity and elf is easy, lucrative and fun and half is hard, annoying, lame and frustrating. And I really look at it from that perspective of is this something that is going to be an ELF kind of opportunity or business where it's fun, it's easy, it's lucrative, like I'm enjoying doing it or a half where I'm going to just feel like I'm pulling tee for our swimming up current the entire time. If it's something where I feel like I'm just swinging upstream the entire time, then there's just life's too short. And by saying yes to that opportunity, that means you have to say no to like 10 more opportunities that could have been elf opportunities. So I just think that, yeah, that's the way I kind of approach that.

That helps a lot.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, be strategic, put in.

The work, but just kind of be surrender to the things that you can't really control and the outcomes is that you're that correctly. Okay. It's super accurate. And I was, I was actually just talking even with my sister yesterday who Just sold her house and talking about how they were in a position where they didn't need to sell and they could just have stayed in their house for the next three years that they wanted to and they ran into some bs, but they came from a position of strength because they weren't. Again, like, we have to sell, but same thing as a freelancer and getting to a position where somebody hits me up and wants me to write for them and I may be interested and I talk to them and then they're like, well, I want to do. They want to do a weird modification. So they want me to take, like, you know, a third of my price off or whatever, and I can just be like, oh, no, sorry, not a good fit. I'm happy to recommend somebody to you, but having that power, it gives you all the power because you are detached. And again, of course I'm able to do that because everything I built and having different income streams and everything to where I'm not like, the project isn't going to be the difference between being able to put food on the table or not. But even that's a really powerful way to be detached from the outcome of getting a client and what you'll find every time. Even, honestly, it's really scary to do it when you're starting out. But even early on, if you sort of say no more often to, like, bad opportunities, you're just going to find that you become really empowered. The people you say no to will often then come back and agree to whatever your initial terms were so you don't actually lose them. And it just ends up giving you so much less of a. A hassle and a headache. And yet a Ryan Hunter's point. Build an emergency fund so you have like, six to 24 months of expenses. That way you don't have to work for money. I think that's a really good goal for people to have. Ryan. So anyway. Peter. Yeah, hopefully that helps. It helps a lot. Thank you so much. And I'm so happy the copy accelerator part worked out. So really happy with that. Awesome. Yeah, me too. Me too. It's been one of my favorite things I do, so I'm really, really happy. Thank you. Cool. Thanks, man.

Beautiful.

All right.

Next up, we have a question from. Let's make sure they're on Mukhtar Abdul Razak, who asks, how is writing emails to project pages. Sorry. To product pages. Different to. Okay, I got it now. How is writing emails for product pages different to writing emails for sales pages? Since product pages aren't as Persuasive of sales pages. I'm assuming he means ecom. What should you include in the email to make the prospects more likely to buy when they get to the product page?

Yeah, great question. What's up, mukhtar? How are you? Hey. Hello. Hey. Hey. How are you doing? Good, man. How are you doing? I'm doing good, I'm doing good. Yeah. I just have a question regarding the email creatives because I watched one of your webinar with Justin and you were.

Talking about how to land a first client.

So I kind of took action and.

I started reaching out to like, different businesses. I actually tried to. So I took up BioTrust and I.

Look up their product page just to try and see if I can write email queries for some of the products.

And I noticed that they don't really have sales pages, they have product pages.

So I just wanted to know how can I write email creatives in a way that's gonna sell, you know, the products? You know, if. Since it's not a sales page, like, do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, 100% I do. And there's actually a pretty, pretty straightforward answer on this, which is. Which is kind of nice. It's a clean answer, which is. Yeah, typically for like a product page or an E Comm page, the emails are gonna be longer. So if you look at a lot of the emails that BioTrust sends out for their product pages, they're almost like little mini sales letters. Maybe the word count is 800 to 1500 words long. Whereas if you're sending to like a video sales letter or a long form sales letter, you can get away with 150 word email or like a 300 word email. But typically the reason why they're longer is because you just have to do more selling. Right? So that's the big difference is you just really have to sell more in the email. So if you treat it that way, and I know there's several people in Copy Accelerator who are writing for BioTrust and doing emails and the ones who've had the most success and are continuously getting hired by them to do more stuff have been doing exactly that. They're basically these mini sales letters and emails and they work really well for BioTrust.

All right, that's my question. Thanks a lot.

Yeah, happy to help, man.

Sweet.

Laughing at Florian's comment, which I'm not going to read out loud. Stefan, anyone ever tell you that you have eyes that look deep into one's souls? So dark. I'm not going to read the hashtag out loud, but I appreciate that, Florian. I'm just trying to gaze deep into your soul. Yeah, Dr. Sears. Rachel, great point. Dr. Sears uses long emails. Justin, when he was with for Patriots, they, they did a really long emails. And it's actually funny because when Justin teaches email copy, he often shows these really long examples. And I squirm a little bit because I've always done the short, more clickbaity ones. But it really just depends again on what you're selling the page and everything. Yeah. All right. Who we got next, bro?

Yo, we got my buddy Yusuf Kapoor. You said Yousef asked what's your best suggestion about when someone should leave their job and pursue freelance? Pursue freelance full time. I'm struggling to know when's the right time to go full freelance. I want to achieve and do more, move faster. But if you'll slow down and discourage moving slowly because of working full time.

Yusuf, how you doing, man? Hey. I'm good. How are you doing? Well, thank you. Good to finally be on. I appreciate, I appreciate you taking my call. Yeah, yeah, I'm really happy to get to chat with you. Obviously we've interacted via email and Facebook and now this way. It's cool. Are you getting. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No. Sorry. No. Are you getting clients right now? I mean, do you, do you. Are you getting income as a freelancer right now? I mean, it's a bit slow, but I'm kind of picking up slowly. That's the thing. I know it's like a big thing if you're not getting clients or if you're not, you know, making too much, you can't obviously leave right away. But my struggle was with like, I, I find that I'm really slowed down and kind of discouraged sometimes when I'm. I can't do as fast as, as much as I can or I know that I can do if I were to do this full time or if I had the same amount of hours where I could really like put all into it. But. So that's why I'm kind of struggling with when I should know that, like, when can I, like, when's the right time to kind of go freelance? Basically, like, because some people do it before they're ready and they kind of make it happen because that's just what they needed. Just needed more time and more hours to like put into that. But for me, I'm struggling between like practicing, studying and, and reading, copy and learning and all that and doing all that while like having a full time job at the Same time. Right. So it's kind of hard to figure out when it would be right time or when wise to do that, I guess. Yeah, for me personally, I mean, I like, I did, I did like burn the boats. I got like hired off, you know, warrior forum for two sales letters. Had 297 in my PayPal account. Yeah, it's not fair actually. I didn't burn the boats. I spent a couple months like still at like two or three months at the job still. But. But honestly, I kind of like stopped going like I stopped doing half the stuff I was supposed to do for the job and I just was like spending more time like focused on client stuff. And then I also was very. But I would take on any kind of work, right, like as a. Like copywriting is great, but I was on upwork, like applying to just every. It was elast at the time, but like every job imaginable because like, I just want to make sure I'd have the income coming in. So I would, you know, I did the content web copy, wrote like reports for people. I wrote somebody's like art history paper or somebody else's like senior thesis. I, you know, taught myself WordPress. People were like, can you build a website? And I said, yeah, I totally can. And then I like, you know, was building WordPress sites for people, doing SEO for people, all kinds of stuff. Dad crushed it on the art history paper, by the way. Just saying. He got an A plus and he was like, I think, I mean, I'm surprising it caught for plagiarism because he was not like that good of a writer himself. So his professor Price didn't care enough, but nailed it. Um, but so, so that's the thing. I mean you have to just, you know, if you quit your job, it doesn't mean you're going to start getting these really good, you know, kind of perfectly aligned projects that are going to be, you know, sales letters or whatever it is. Like, if it were me again, I would just really try to like, you just have to hustle. But I can't tell you, obviously, you know, that's a decision you have to make. I don't want the weight or responsibility of telling you to like quit a job and then it doesn't go well and you're homeless and it's my fault. But you know, I think generally, do you have money saved? Like can you, can you live a couple months with, you know, with. No, with no job? Are you kind of month to month? No, I could, I have some bit of money Saved, probably a couple months. Yeah, I do have a bit of money saved, but I'm just so hesitant because, like, I know. I know people who have kind of left early and then they thought, you know, things work out so nicely and stuff, but then it just ended up, like, really screwing them over. So I didn't want that to be kind of, you know, I don't want to take that kind of risk if it's not, like, a smart decision to make. So that's why I was. That's why I was kind of curious to know. Yeah, I mean, it is a risk, but, like, that's, you know, there's. There's asymmetry at play. Right. Which is like, taking bigger risks, like, leads to bigger rewards. So, you know, having to be a bit of a risk is okay, and it's okay to take a swing. Do you have, like. I mean, the other thing is, like, do you have. Do you have a kid or anything? No, I don't have. Okay, no kids. I'm married, but I don't have kids. No. Yeah. Do you. Do you, like, own or rent? I rent. Okay. So, I mean, you have to think about, too, though, like, what is, like, the worst case scenario that happens if you. What industry? What's your main job? Right now I just work in, like, a. Like, a warehouse supply chain types. I mean, do you think you'd be able to get another. How long have you been in that job for? About a year. Yeah, And I think with warehouse work, you know, I would imagine you could get another job pretty quickly, because I know a lot of places are actually understaffed because of, like, Covid and stuff like that. So I think one thing to put into, like, the. The calculation is that, you know, what happens if you take this. This. The swing and take this risk and it doesn't work out? Like, can't you just go back to a job if you, you know, a couple months from now? Yeah, I mean, I was thinking that too, but then I guess because of this whole situation, I wasn't sure what. What that would look like if. If I were to. If I did need a job or whatever. I didn't really know how the market is and stuff, so I. I thought about it, but, yeah, I guess. I guess I could do that as well if, like, worst case scenario it is. And then the challenge there. And Peter Ludus mentioned mindset, you know. Yeah. The thing is, like, I like thinking about that because, like, we make so many of these decisions in our life, these, like, all or nothings, and it's like, good and bad. It's good because you should be committed, right? But it's also, it prevents us from taking risks because we're like, we sort of act like it's this absolute thing where if I leave my job, I'll never go to get a job again. And it's like, that's probably not true. So you don't want to have it as an excuse, like, where you kind of leave, but then you only sort of half put in the effort because you're like, seeing. They're like, well, I've got the safety net to fall back on. The same reason that lots of trust fund kids don't ever crush it, right? Some. Some do. I know, I know. I have one friend who's a trust fund kid, fucking wildly rich, and he works really hard, and it's awesome. But then I know some other kids who are trust fund kids who don't, you know, haven't done anything of value in, like, forever. But. But I think. But yeah, I think if you, if you can really hustle and you don't mind, it's not gonna be. It's gonna be more. It may be more work and not less work, right? And again, I would go back to just, if you don't mind hustling, getting random jobs like create a fucking Fiverr account and do some weird thing where you're like, I'll write, you know, a hundred subject lines for you. Not 100, like 10, you know, and you upsell to where you get maybe, you know, $40 or $50, but you can do it in an hour. And like, you're gonna have to find aggregate, like your income through a bunch of sources. But, you know, if you're comfortable doing that, then, and it's easier to do it now, it's not gonna get. If, you know, if your wife has a child or you have a kid or you get a promotion, it's probably only gonna get harder. But that all being said, it is ultimately up to you. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to tell you definitive definitively, but I mean, I guess, tell you what my experience was, like, yeah, no, no, no, for sure. I, I get what you're coming from. Where are you coming from? So I appreciate it. Thank you so much. That gives me a lot of clarity. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, happy to. Happy to help.

All right, sick. Next up, we have Gurlene Singh. She asks, do you ever write copy for products you don't agree or vibe with? What are your Thoughts on that? Some people are dead set against writing for certain industries.

Yeah, what's up, Girlen? Hello. Oh, hey, what's up? What's up? Not much. Not much. So I guess the reason why I'm asking this question just kind of. It's just something that occurred to me recently. Someone else. Sorry, I'm trying to use. Not to use like names or specifics, but basically it came to my attention that certain copywriters are just so dead set against specific niches. Which is. Which is fine. I mean, to each their own. But I was just wondering what your thoughts on it were. Like in the beginning, I remember you mentioned something like you just took what a job you could get. But now I'm kind of wondering, like, do you want. Well, you don't still exactly do that, but do you say no to certain projects simply because you're not just not into the project or the product? I mean, I do, but it's generally more because the product is like boring or generic than anything else, you know, for me. Like, so for example, if somebody is like, I've got a probiotic and it's going to crush it, I'm like, I don't want to write a probiotic offer. I've done a bunch of probiotics. You know, my feelings on this are, for me, like, with health, for example, like, really the only thing I didn't want to like write about was like cancer just because of having my dad having died of cancer. It just was like, I don't want to like promise somebody that they can cure cancer and give them false hope. But it also depends on your beliefs. So for example, like, I've hung out with like Harvard doctors who are like, you can reverse diabetes in 30 days, like 100%. And I guess you totally can. Like literally like you change your diet. Not in all cases. But a lot of the time if somebody changes their diet and goes to like a Mediterranean diet, more of a whole foods, plant based diet, like exercise is more. You can just straight up like reverse diabetes. So for me, like saying, you know, for an info product you can reverse diabetes or for a supplement you can lower blood sugar. Like, that never bothered me because I do believe it. I think some people feel like if they don't believe that you can, if they think the only way you can get these outcomes is by going to a doctor and taking a medication, then I can understand how they're gonna be more resistant to it. I will say that it's more fun to write first generally when you actually like the product, you're gonna do a better job. You know, it's like, more. When you're more aligned, you're gonna be more excited, have more energy, have more enthusiasm, all that kind of stuff. I do think also earlier on, I sort of felt like the ends justify the means and that a. It's like I'm just trying to eat, put food on the table, pay my rent, whatever. So, like, I was not very picky about a product. And then I also feel like, you know, like, because I don't. I don't feel like, morally, there's a couple, like, health offers I wrote, like, really early on that were sort of, like, really aggressive. Like, say something about how you can reverse Alzheimer's, which I think the products really did help. Like, there was. They're based on science, but, like, you know, I think maybe the claims were a bit too hardcore. And then, yeah, there's one that everyone's talking about in the chat, but, like, I wrote, like, a promo for, like, the lottery and how you could, you know, win the lottery more frequently. And to be clearly honest with you, for that one, I just thought it was funny. I enjoyed writing it because I'm like, this is crazy. I can just convince somebody that they can buy some product that will show them a lotto cheat code or hack. People will really believe it. And so I actually was like. I loved writing it because it was a wild story and it was an exercise in the power of writing and psychology and all this stuff. So honestly thought it was, like, hilarious and amazing. Of course, this was, you know, like, in 20, like, 14, so, like, six years ago, which isn't that long, but it is long. Like, we're different every year, right? And so I wrote it, loved it, did really well. It's great copy. But, you know, then, like, I kind of googled it and saw people talking about how, like, you know, I'm on food stamps and I really hope this helps. And I was like, oh, I'm a piece of shit, right? But I had to. I just wasn't thinking, like, about at the time. So there's been times where, you know, it's like, there's maturation happens. Which is why I also talk about, like, my one thing I hate is, like, somebody who sees you in one place in time. And, like, I always think of this as, like, the ex girlfriend status. Obviously, I'm a guy who's an ex girlfriend because it's like your ex girlfriend is. You're always gonna be the same guy to your ex girlfriend, right? It may Be the same thing for your ex boyfriend. But like, I'm speaking from a male perspective. It's like, you know, 10, like, you know, 20 years later, some girl I did in high school, I'm like, I'm never going to be anybody different because, like, I'm just caught. But it's not just like exes who feel that way. It's like other people from your past as well. And I hate that because you're saying that humans can't change, evolve, improve, become better. You know, all these. Actually, I did in email. I think you sent out a couple. Do your coke cooking guy. Yeah, yeah, my. Yeah, my former. I wrote an email about it for people who don't know to my list. And it was about how, yeah, my. This guy who was like my coke dealer when I was addicted to coke when I was 20, 21 and working for a music business, 19 to 21, and how, you know, I was addicted, this guy was a coke dealer. But now this guy is like, in Internet marketing, has a family and a kid and is hiring people and is like just like doing all these amazing things. I'm, you know, went on to become a great copywriter and I'm helping people. So it's like you could, you know, somebody who can look back to that one period of time or who knew me then and be like, oh, like, you know, that guy's a cokehead. But it's like, yeah, like, you know, whatever, 15 years ago I totally was. But like, then I changed. And like, this guy. Oh, that guy was a drug dealer. It's like, yeah, 15 years ago and he's totally changed. And I think the importance of that is again, that we do evolve and change. So that's a really long winded way of saying that I'm pretty flexible on copy. I don't really judge people. I don't, you know, again, like, complete bullshit miracle cures. Like, I, I don't want to do it because I don't want to feel crappy about myself. You know, bullshit. Like, Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do a lot of product today. Right. Like, I would feel I would know about the consequences and realize that I'm putting more negativity out into the world. But I don't regret that I did one because at the time it was like a way to pay my bills and I thought it was funny. That's just who I was then. And I've changed. So does that, does that help? Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's why I wanted to ask you A question because I knew you, you would just dive deep and take an angle that like I wouldn't have thought about because as far as I go, it was like, oh, I can see why some people don't because it kind of becomes like a moral, moral conundrum, I guess you could say. Yeah. But no, yeah, no thanks. That was very, very helpful. Always nice to hear your thoughts on random things. Awesome. Yeah, I'm always, always happy to share my thoughts on random things. So appreciate the question. All right.

Next up we have Eric Butts. Eric asks when running Google Ads, what are your thoughts on the ad going straight to the sales page versus some other page trying to get the email first.

What's up Eric? How are you man? How's it going? Happy birthday, Ed.

Thanks man. Appreciate it.

Good you can hear me. You know I'm in the RNBC course. I'm doing that, going through the whole thing. I'm just finishing up the copy section today. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with it with the Google Ads. So right now they're getting decent clicks but they're not converting. And I'm wondering should I be doing more lead capture or should I just.

Go for the sale straight up?

First of all, what time is it where you are right now?

I'm in Atlanta, So it's almost 2:30.

You gotta drink some coffee, bro. I hear you yawning. I need your energy. I'm teasing you but I just heard the yawn mid question. I'm just so like teasing you though. But what, okay, what are you selling in this? Because like what's the product that's being sold from the Google Ads? This is the resume writing course.

People who are looking for jobs, trying to get hired.

Okay. Okay, so now you're running Google Ads going. And you're right now you're going primarily directly to the sales page, right? I was going to the sales page.

And right now I'm going to like.

A quick cheat sheet kind of thing.

Like do these five things to make.

Your resume better in the next 30 minutes. Cool. And are people for the cheat sheet? Are people. Is that a free, like free with like an opt in thing? When you opt in, you get the cheat sheet. Yeah. Okay, how's the opt in rate been for that?

It's okay.

Like it's low or mid teens, something like that? Like I feel like it should be.

Higher but it's better than zero.

Yeah. The thing I would, I mean I would. So first of all, I would go back to what Ed And I talked about earlier to Josh Knox, you know, the idea of like really like the goal is like, you know, what's going to lead to, you know, ultimately the money, money in type thing like to profitably acquiring people. And if like you can do that through Legion and that's the better avenue to go, then you know, that makes sense. You know, it's hard to say like Google is notoriously tricky in general though. For like straight sale and going direct to like offers, conversion rates are generally pretty low and it takes a while and a good amount of money to dial, dial in something like. So whereas with Facebook you can go direct to an offer a lot more easily just based on Google and this algorithm and the traffic and all this kind of stuff. Typically with Google, and I've worked with Google experts in the past, it takes like, they warn you, they're like, hey, it's gonna take a couple months and you know, $5,000 a month or whatever. And first the conversion rates are gonna be like almost zero and your CPAs are gonna be $1,000, but then it'll get better. So if you're really comfortable with like Google and maybe, you know, all of that, you know, maybe that's one thing, but if you're kind of like not, I mean, how good are you with Google Ads? I guess is a question. I wouldn't say I'm good, but I've done my homework, right? Ultimate guy Google Ad. Whereas, you know, the whole Perry Marshall thing.

And so I'm dialing in piece by piece. So I feel like on the ad side I'm good.

I went and I was tweaking the.

Landing pages because of the quality score.

So the quality score is good. And now I'm trying to figure out.

What to do with the page to.

Get the conversions where I want.

I can afford to invest some on the front end, which is part of.

Why I'm asking the question, do you go for the sale or not and get these people who are more pre qualified like Ed was talking about. So that's what I'm just trying to work through in my head and see, like, is that what people do or am I just off the deep end here? How much is the does the resume kind of building, like course cost? I'm still messing around with that too, trying to test it.

But right now I'm hovering at 97 and I'm considering playing with 197 and.

Then also either bumper upsell where I actually look at their stuff after it's done.

If they want to do that.

Right, Cool. That's what I'm thinking about. Yeah. I mean, you know, are there competitors who are doing similar products at similar price points? They are competitors doing similar products at lower price points.

And then there are competitors who are.

Like, when you talk about the.

Unique.

Mechanism of the solution, the thing that I offer that they. I'm still in the business about you as a copywriter and as a copywriting teacher. Like, I'm still doing it every day.

Like I am the hiring manager so.

I can tell them directly what's working right now. Yeah. Which is great. But I do, I do wonder like, because I mean, the other thing that'd be interesting to test is like, I know you're thinking about going higher, but like, if you've got something like with Google Ads, it's like notoriously tricky, especially early on, and then you've got like a price point that's higher than everybody else's. You know, that may be maybe pretty hard to get those front end conversions until you get really dialed in versus, like, if you actually start with like a lower price point and test that, it may actually be the smarter decision. Instead of going higher, you can always raise the price point later. But that's sort of. Yeah, that's gonna. Stands out to me a lot because it's like, you know, I love premium pricing as much as everybody, but you know, we have to kind of like there's a reason if everyone's doing it one way. It's always, it's kind of good to start there sometimes and then, and then innovate from there. So I'd probably test. Reminds me of one other thing.

I had a different offer and I.

Did like a birthday. Like I turned 37. So I sold the other offer for $37. And a lot of people jumped on that because it was a deep discount. Yeah. So yeah, I'll tinker with that too and see what happens. Yeah, I do that. And then I think like, you know, if it were me, I'd probably play more with like, well, I would test that and then, you know, depending on that, then if you can get the lead gen to convert because you're getting the list and you've got a good email sequence and you're creating value, talking about yourself as a hiring manager, painting a picture of like, you know, all these things that they're not thinking of, talking about how you're the expert who can help them get hired and then like, you know, reminding them of the course and promoting it to them through like a good email Sequence and you're getting good engagement. I can see that being very, you know, definitely working. It's just a bit, you know, longer to close your sale, but I think that's a good model. But, yeah, it's hard without really going deep diving into it. But yeah, I would test price points and then I think. And then getting clear on what the metrics are going to be on the lead gen side, I guess. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. All right, sweet. And I would try. I would play Facebook too, like some other people were mentioning there. I don't know if you've tried Facebook yet, but I just sort of feel like.

I gotta figure out how to.

Get a new account.

I don't even know why I got banned, but I definitely got banned.

I'm banned. I'm banned too. I've appealed like a bunch of times. They're just, no, what did I do?

They're like, read the policy.

I was like, I read the policy. I don't know what I did. I know. Facebook's the worst, Ed.

Sucks to miss out on those Zuck bucks, eh?

Maybe you got the connect. You can hook me up.

Yeah, we can run a whole diagnosis. Feel free to message me.

Happy to help. Nice. Good offer from Ed. I would take him up on that, but. Yeah, but Eric, I would say, yeah, I would look at Facebook, though, if you can get a new account, maybe. I'm sure people can give advice. Maybe if you post and Justin Stefan talk, copy or hit up Ed about it. And because honestly, at a budget of like $40 per day, which is. I know what you put in the chat, I feel like that is gonna go a lot further on Facebook versus on Google, frankly. Yep, that makes sense.

One thing I also really want to quickly note is for those listening. Wait, so, Eric, did you get banned on 40 bucks a day?

No.

So I got banned on Facebook a while back.

Right.

So.

And I think because I use the word success, that's my best guess.

This is when I was first starting out. Okay, so I got banned after running one ad.

Basically, the 40 bucks a day was the Google search budget. So somebody was asking what I was doing. So I have it at 40 bucks a day right now. That's trying to get enough clicks to figure out what was going to convert without kind of blowing the bank.

Got it.

That's what I'm doing.

Understood. So for those listening and for you to Eric, one of the biggest mistakes that I see, and I'll probably do a post about this tomorrow again, because it's so Important. When people get their ads rejected or their account shut down or their business manager banned, they always immediately go to, hey, I'm not doing anything wrong. I should appeal this. And so you do, or they do and they're breaking rules they didn't even know existed. And then Facebook looks at it and goes, yeah, thank you for helping us double confirm that we were correct to shut down your account so you get further in the doghouse. So the worst thing you could do is try and appeal it. So be sure to, you know, check with somebody who's a Facebook compliance expert or someone who knows Facebook well, me or whoever. It doesn't matter. Like, if that does happen to you, because it's brutal.

I mean, please do that. Because I didn't just appeal it. I appeal appealed it twice because the fucker didn't give me a good answer. They never do confirmed that they were right.

And I'm awfully. They never do. I guarantee I can take a look at your page and your. The way your ads are set up, I can tell you exactly what happened. All right, I'll speak to it for sure. Thanks. You got it, man.

No problem. Thanks, Eric. Hey, let's try and squeeze in a couple more. Two or three more, something like that.

All right, cool. Next up, we got Ryan Hunter. Ryan says and asks, how do you get back into your work and deep work routines and habits after traveling or hosting a big conference?

Yeah, what's up, Ryan? Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. Yeah, see Ryan, Ryan Hunter bringing the energy. I've had half a cup of coffee and a late night writing session, and I'm in line for another cup of coffee. So I'm taking your advice. There you go, man. Good. Gotta stay caffeinated, dude. Yeah. So how do you kind of get back in the zone after you've been out of the zone? Yeah, I mean, biggest thing is, like one of my biggest challenges throughout life is just like consistency when it comes to habits and routines. Because I've always seen how I can improve and always thinking like, oh, man, I'm not at my A game. And like, getting back from Vegas, for example, you know, that kind of like threw a lot of my routines out. You know, before that I was like, not drinking any alcohol, not like drinking any coffee was on like, keto. I kind of just threw all that out. And anyways, so getting back in the game, I was wondering if you had a particular way, you know, that you have to just like, okay, we had something crazy like the big event or we just traveled to, you know, San Diego to close the house. Now I'm back. Get back in the zone quickly. I mean, my biggest thing is, do you have like a dedicated, like, workspace would be one question. I mean, it's in my room right now, so I want to change that. I want to have like an office that I can go to, but with the, you know, pandemic and things, it's just I've got a nice standing desk in my office. So that's nice but not ideal. Yeah, because one thing that does help me is like, I have like a decade workspace, man. I showed like the inside of my, the office area of like my new house, which is upstairs in the back corner. So, you know, the first couple of days here I was like, not a routine. And then we ordered like a desk from Target, which I'm going to get, like, you know, a nicer fancier desk, blah, blah, blah. But like, this desk was like $70 and like the chair is a fucking piece of shit. Like, no support, like crappy. Like the most base office chair you can get, like, my back is like, is aching, but having like a desk, a monitor, a chair, and like a room where I can go in and shut the door and I guess like a dedicated space for work. If you're able to do that, it really helps a lot because then it's like, okay, once I, you know, go into the space, like, I'm in my. This is like my workspace. So I work when I'm in this room. I don't do anything else. I just work. Having an environment like that I think is really valuable, you know, I am. And then part of it is just. It is mindset. I mean, I think you think about how it's like when you come back, are you. Are you just. Do you not feel motivated? Is that part of it?

Oh, no, I'm way motivated.

I'm peeking with motivation and you know, and it seems I'm still pumping out things, but it's. I'm not at the consistency. Like, yeah, there's like that goal in my mind of just like the Zen master, just focused and able to go out and like rage face and then come back and like get back into the 6am Wake up, no coffee, and like eight hours deep work. I know that's totally ridiculous, but like, that's the kind of goal and I struggle sometimes, particularly when I travel and I get off my routine so I stay at home. Like, I get, I get in the zone. I get in this, you know, habits and it's good. But Even some traveling really, really throws that off. Yeah. For me, I think of it like, I think you sort of. Maybe I'm. This isn't the best advice, but my opinion on it is being okay with that because you will get back into the routine. It just sometimes is going to maybe take like a day or two or three or four to do it. Uh, so, like, the way I generally look at it though, is like, yeah, I come back in, but maybe I'm not as motivated. Like, I've just found. I don't fight it. Like, I sort of feel like I'm motivated all the time. So if I just like, I'm not feeling. Like yesterday I just wasn't feeling stuff after the afternoon, so I just went outside and like, read a book for like two hours. I was like, there's a bunch of shit I should be doing, but I'm like, I don't want to do it. Like, I could sit around and kind of like half do it and fight it. I'm like, or why don't I just go do what I, like, want to be doing right now? And then tomorrow I'll probably feel way more motivated and just get done more stuff in less time. Because I'm like, I really have motivation. And I kind of feel like it's the same thing with coming back from an event or whatever. It's like, you know, it's annoying. It'd be great to just come back and get right into like the perfect zone. But that's. I don't think I saw humans are built or how we operate, you know, I think like, we need. You have to settle into a habit generally. And so the biggest thing I would say is, like, just being okay with it and giving yourself permission to sort of be a little bit off routine and then just slowly easing back in. And having a dedicated workspace really helps a lot too, though. Yeah. And I used to, like, get down on myself, but now I have a lot more compassion and just like not beating myself up. I'm just like, okay, you know, here's some lessons and other question on this is like, do you have a pretty consistent morning routine that you use, like every time that you wake up on a good day? Yeah, I mean, it's like consistent, but it's nothing like really groundbreaking. It's like, honestly, I just. I wake up, make coffee, come to my computer, like, kind of clean up my email inbox, which is maybe a nice little way of like ordering my day and feeling like I'm doing something sometimes, you know, write my Daily email and then generally jump into like deep work from like 8 to 10, 10:30. You know, if there's like, if it's nice weather out and I've woken up, I don't use an alarm clock. So I usually wake up at 5:30. But like today I woke up at 6:45 because my neighbors had a Canada Day party. So when it celebrated Canada for all the Canadians on this call, I was honoring your, you know, your guys's great day of quasi independence. Even though Canada Day 1867 basically was like when you guys became, you're like part of the British like empire still or whatever. So I don't really know how like you guys were that independent, but you know, whatever. Just saying Canada, I think it's actually Ed Day. It was Ed Dead was gonna be born on that day. Yeah, I didn't want to bring it up with my Canadian neighbors because we were drinking like Mooseheads and some weird Canadian ice wine that Laura found and it was lots of fun. But, but anyway, so like 6:45 today. So I want to do like a walk. But I didn't. But if it's like, you know, if I'm waking up at 5:30 some days I'll read for a half an hour, 45 minutes and I'll also go out and like just kind of like try and do like a 30, 45 minute walk or do something physical like work out, get the blood flowing, stuff like that. Cool. All right, man. I appreciate your time. Yep. Absolutely. No, I love you Canucks. You guys are great. It's just, you know, your, your Independence Day is like, yeah, cool. That's the day we kind of like became part of the uk. I don't know, I just don't get it. You know, I'm not Canadian so I just don't get it. I'm sure. Yeah, it's like a quasi Independence Day. And you guys didn't actually become like fully independent until like the like the 80s or some shit from 60s. 80s. I don't know if any of you Canadians want to tell me, give me a quick history lesson. Feel free to, dude.

I did really well in school. I hit like 90s plus while working on my copywriting business, but I did not fucking pay attention. I couldn't tell you anything. I learned, dude.

It's okay, you know. Well, either way, I do. I love Canada. I love the Canadian people. Great love for them. Um, and let's do, let's do one more. Cause I've got a, I have a two hour call at 12 so 25 minutes. So I want to get a little break to like a Lacroix or some shit after that. But Lacroix, I love my Lacroix, bro.

But they taste like someone who read a book on what, like, fruit tastes like and then try to put it in a drink, but they never actually tried the actual fruit themselves.

I hear you, but you probably have not had coconut Lacroix, which tastes like a. Like a watered down pina colada, but it's kind of delicious. Okay.

I haven't, so I'll keep an open mind to that.

There's some bad flavors and some good flavors. Coconut, Lacroix, all the good ones.

You know what? There are some bad flavors of Kombucha. There's some good flavors, so I can appreciate that. I will take you up on that offer when I visit you.

Okay. I got a whole, whole fridge just loaded up with Lacroix, so. All right, let's do one more. Who are we going to do?

Got a great one from CS.

Hey.

I've had a 10 plus successful 10 plus years, I guess, successful career running my design agency. Despite success and recognition, I never earned more than €140 per year. Or is it pounds?

I don't know.

So I'm learning copywriting and starting with cold outreach. Is my previous career as a designer a help or a hindrance in approaching new clients?

What's up, cs? How are you? I'm very good.

Great to talk to you.

I'm a big fan of your approach and your methodology. I really admire what you've done. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm really glad to talk with you as well. Actually, you're part of a big inspiration for me to really commit to being a copywriter because I've worked with copywriters a lot and kind of envied them.

In their freedom and their much higher rates.

They would be getting on the same projects as me, so. But you really inspired me to commit to it and I have to be in a copy accelerator within a year or two. That'd be awesome, man. Well, I really appreciate you saying that. Yeah. To answer your question, I think it's definitely an asset and you just have to position it that way. The reasons why would be a couple. One is you can offer to do the design along with the copy. Although I actually don't really love that because it's like a bunch of extra work. But you could be like, you know, I'm also. I ran a design company for 10 years and I really know what page elements work and what don't work. So as you're getting whatever in for you designed, I can come in and kind of like keep an eye on it and give you suggestions for what to tweak and to change. I don't really do the full design work anymore. I mean, you can if you still really like design, you could do it as a value add. But I just feel like my gut tells me if you do that, then you're gonna end up kind of like hating life because your projects are gonna take way longer. And instead of turning the copy and being done with it now, you actually. Sorry to interrupt you, but I've had a few experience of doing both and it's not like it's worse than doing.

Both together is a nightmare.

Yeah, I totally get it. I think packaging shit together sounds good to everybody. And it almost always sucks. Like I did it with a agency I ran that was like copy. And then we were like, we'll do everything design dev. Like integrations get you traffic. And then it was a nightmare because it's like, say the copy's great and even the design's good, but the dev takes longer than expected. Now the client's pissed. But if all that goes well, but we have trouble bringing traffic, now they're just pissed, like, well, where's my traffic? It's like, why am I giving them all these opportunities to like, you know, for something to go wrong versus just focus on doing one thing really well, giving to them. But that being said, going back to the design, but you, I think you could be like, you know, I have 10 years of like, you know, designing high converting funnels and whatever else, so. Oh, sorry.

To be clear, then you see this.

This is actually where the problem because like I did like branding design, which is like identities for big corporations, multinational. So it's actually unconnected in a way.

Like the design I was doing.

I'm sure you know how different the branding world, the direct marketing world is. They're just different universes. Okay, totally, very good distinction, totally fair. But I think you could kind of not point out the distinction to people. Now I'm not saying like to don't lie. You have to lie and say you did like direct response funnels when you didn't. But I think you could still be like, you know, I come from a design background, so I have a really good eye for design and what catches attention and what doesn't. So like, you know, as I deliver the copy, I can go through and provide, you know, insights or thoughts on what I'm seeing to help you on the design side. And I frankly just spend like a little bit of time studying like high converting funnels and be like, oh, you know, I'm a designer of design background and I've really studied the design for funnels that you know, convert really well. So I can help you because you have like a 10 year background. I've worked with all these big brands and I really know, you know, if you just spend a little time studying what seems to be working for funnels, then you can still be like, I really know what design elements help. Right. And conversions. And then that's a huge value add. And then I think beyond that, like the 10 years of experience working with big brands, same thing. And being like the whole idea of like, I have experience, I've worked with huge brands. Like I. But I'm working with you. But I just, I have all these amazing insights into like what works, what doesn't work, you know, consumer psychology. All these things that the average copier is not going to have because they haven't actually been on the forefront building this stuff. So I think, you know, being able to like position yourself that way is really valuable. Great, thank you. Yeah, actually I just another question occurs.

To you, but I guess you're in.

A hurry so I'll. That's okay. Good. What's the question? Just like what's your best tips or resources on doing cold outreach? Yeah, go ahead, go on. That's the question. Yeah, I mean, you know, and we have, we've talked about some of the previous calls too and I have this freelancing course coming out. But the short answer is being personalized with your messages. Like when you reach out to people. Be funny. Good subject line. Personalized personality. Be confident. Demonstrate your knowledge and expertise. Sort of like, hey, I'm one expert. Reaching out to another. I'm one like leader. Reach out to another. I think the ones that are like, you know, hello, sir. I am a young copywriter who is struggling to, you know, make it. And like, I hope that you will give me an opportunity and I believe like you will find my resume attached. And. But it's like, you know, like you're like, okay, you're just a random job seeker, but you're like, hey, what's up man? I was checking out your stuff. I'm like a world class designer turned copywriter. I'm applying what I learned from consumer psychology and all this stuff to copy, getting great results for clients. I noticed you know, what you guys are doing. I'm a huge Fan. And I'd love the chance to work with you. Ideally, like, you know, like, here are some thoughts on what, you know, maybe I could. Ways we could work together. Here's a quick little video I shot showing you what I've seen on your page. And there's some ideas I have for how to improve stuff. You know, just providing value. Like, anyway, like, let me know, would love to chat. You know, something like that. Just having confidence, I think is really important. And then in addition to that, like, just following up is important, too. I talked about following up. Somebody actually emailed me today and told me how they. They kept emailing Craig Valentine until Craig Valentine just replied in all caps, like, stop. So I'm sorry, I'm sorry to Craig Valentine in advance for that. Who's on my list and probably hates me now. But. But, like, at least Craig Valentine responded. You know what I mean? And now you know, okay, Craig's not interested now. You don't have to keep following up with him. Once it was a stop. Like, stop. But, like, all right, cool. Now I can move on to somebody else. But I think it's okay to keep following up. I don't. You don't want to be annoying, but I think if you're being funny, you have a good subject lines. Like, it doesn't mean every single person is going to be like, this guy's great. Like, I should hire him. Some people are like, oh, my God, this guy needs to fucking stop emailing me. But, like, there are people who are going to be like, damn, this guy's really determined. He keeps emailing, keeps messaging. Like, I laugh every time. And you have that one subject line that just really gets them. Like that whole, I've been thinking about you in the shower. Or like, you know, like, your website gave me indigestion or whatever. Some. Some funny, like, subject line, you know, you may get a response. So I really think, yeah, I think follow up is really important. I can't tell you how many times people reach out and follow up once or twice and then stop. And, you know, it sucks. I want to respond to everybody. I feel like a jerk when I don't, but I have because I'm teaching and putting myself out there so much. I just get a ton of, you know, messages and I can't respond to people in a timely fashion. But if someone follows up enough, I almost always will. So I think follow up is really important, too. Fantastic. They're really great actionable tips. I'll put them. Do them this week and maybe let you know how it goes next week? Yeah, that'd be great. Please keep me posted. Great. Thank you. Cool. Thank you cs. All right, Will, I know you asked what the freelancing course is going to cost. It's probably going to be 9.97 for the full course and then we're probably gonna break up a component about how to get your first client and sell that for $97 and have like a bunch of the case studies that people provided. That way people can get that, use it to get their first client, have something really actionable and then from there they can uplevel to the full course or program. So when I sell it to my list, I'll probably sell the 997 version but then later I will break down a $97 kind of front end version and we'll run traffic to it and doing all that kind of stuff. So yeah, amped about it. But everybody, we are going to end the call today. I want to say thank you so much for being on with me. Ed, I'm going to give you a chance to talk in just a second and say goodbye as well. For people who are watching this or listening to it, please make sure that if this is valuable, you are hitting the like button, commenting. If it's on YouTube, please share with other people everything you can do to kind of help spread this to as many folks as possible. Really mean the world to me. Ed, any last thoughts of wisdom before we wrap up here?

Yeah, just keep moving forward, keep pushing ahead and don't forget to enjoy the process and love yourself.

Awesome. Love it. All right, thank you so much everybody. I'll see you all next week 10am Thursdays, 10am Pacific Time and we'll talk then. Bye everyone.