[RTB:E6] “Take Big Swings” - The Road to a Billion with Stefan Georgi

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi. I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call in radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset scaling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. The reason for the name the Road to a Billion is twofold. One is I am looking to hit a billion dollars in revenue this year for our sales from based on copy. I've written products, I've helped to sell both my own and for my clients. And also because my goal is to help and make an impact on the lives of the lives of a billion people in the next 20 years. But I'm really gonna change that to say, the next five years because big, hot, audacious, hairy goals, which we're gonna talk about in a second. Like I said, the way it works, you put your questions into the Q and A section in Zoom. My friend Ed Ray will review those questions and feed them to me. Ed, you want to say what's up to everybody?

Yo, yo, what's up, guys? Super excited to be here. My name is Ed Ray and I help make people's funnels Facebook friendly so they can get some of those Zuck bucks. And super excited to be here. I've been doing copywriting for a few years and super stoked to be able to share the stage with Stefan and what's the word? Share some insights I've learned along the way.

Awesome. We're glad to have you, Ed. I'm so glad I got an awesome co host and Ed here. And the opening kind of monologue, the way it works is I'm going to talk for like three to five minutes about something. I do this every show. Kind of my opening monologue thing you can say, and then we move into questions. And this one was kind of inspired by Ed. So I'm going to talk about it a little bit, but then I want to bring in Ed to have a conversation on it too. And it's about taking big swings. So the reason this came up is during our weekly Copy Accelerator call. Copy Accelerator is a mastermind that I run with my partner Justin Goff. And we have between the two kind of tiers, 160, 155 people in it. And we do weekly training calls and a bunch of other stuff. And we decided to do an open frame Q and A. And one of the questions that came up was from Ed. And Ed was asking about how he's exploring different business Models. He's one of the best people in the world at Facebook compliance. He's become just really good at it. He's sought after. People will pay him a lot of money to look at their funnels and help make them compliant, and he'll advise people, but a lot of people want done for you stuff. And Ed was kind of trying to figure out what's the best model. And he mentioned that his goal for a while has been to make a million dollars by the time he's 21. And Ed is a baby at 20. Although he's a man, he's a baby man, wise beyond his years. I was talking to Ed about how before this call started, I was talking to him about how when I. I had the same goal to make a million dollars before I turned 21, and I was involved in a music company, but I did not have the knowledge needed to make that happen. I did not have mentors. I had a business partner. But the partner was also just a kid who didn't know what he was doing. I didn't know about online marketing. I didn't know about copy. I didn't know about all of these things. So I certainly did not reach that goal. But I had it. And Justin, my partner in Copy Accelerator, kind of came in and said, ed, you're making a mistake. I have seen other people make this mistake, too. You go from a job where you're making 50, 60, 70,000 a year or whatever it is, and you're trying to make a million dollars, and that's too big of a jump. If you can make $300,000, just be happy with that. Like, we don't, you know, you don't kind of lower your sights a little bit and be more realistic. And if you do that, then, you know, you'll be happier. So that was Justin's take. And I want to be really clear that I'm not. What I'm gonna talk about here is not throwing shade on Justin or anything like that. But it was interesting because we do have really fundamentally different beliefs and philosophies about this. So I was very surprised. And some people even messaged Justin after and said, like, wow, this really. Thanks for saying that. You know, that helps. But to me, that makes me cringe too, because the way I've always approached it is that you should take really big swings and set your goals really high. And if you don't quite reach those goals, that's okay. You know, like the example I mentioned in my post about this call today is when I started My health supplement company in 2015, I made the goal of, we're gonna do $150 million in revenue. And the first year, we did a million dollars, and we lost in revenue, we lost $200,000. But the second year, I figured some stuff out, and we grossed $23 million. And then if you look at some of the other supplement companies that I got involved with at the same time, the gross in that same year period was probably 60 million. So I did not hit my goal of $150 million. Right. But the thing I think about, I was talking to my wife about this after the call on Tuesday, and I was talking about how, you know, I didn't agree with Justin on this. And I talked about the example of how the goal had been 150 million. I only did 23 million for this company. And she was like, yeah, but imagine if you made the goal $10 million. What would have happened then? And my personal belief is that if I had made the goal $10 million, then I probably would have done 5 or 6 million and been happy. Ish with that. I don't know if I would have really exceeded the goal, but maybe I would have exceeded it. Maybe I would have hit it, But I just have a hard time believing that I would have done 23 million. I think I would have done less. So I'd rather set a goal at a higher number and really try and go for it. And if I fail quotes, that's okay, right? I don't mind failing. That's not a big deal. But I'd rather have gone for it. Because if you say Ed does not make a million dollars, but because that was his goal, he makes 750,000 instead of 350,000, right? Something like that. Oh, boy. I mean, Ed's a little bummed, I guess, that he didn't hit his goal, but he's not crazy bummed. It's like he still made $750,000, and the next year he'll probably make a million. And I know those are big numbers, but the point is, whatever your goal is, I really feel it just makes more sense to. Was it shoot for the moon? So if you fail, you land up in the stars, like this stupid cliche thing, but it's kind of true. Who's someone at LIFTY using the hockey stick analogy? I like that someone just put a hockey stick analogy. I don't know if that's relative to this, but that's the other thing is, in our industry, with online marketing and digital marketing, you really can hockey stick? Right. That's what happened with my supplement companies. But even like my copywriting career and everything really, in the last year or two is when I really figured shit out. And then once I started figuring things out, I've hockey stick. My level of income is hockey stick. It happens really fast. The thing is, you need to have the knowledge, the know how, the resources, the support community, all these people and these things in place. So that's the difference between having a big dream and going after it and being delusional. Like, if you don't have any, if you're just a kid. If Ed was a kid in Vancouver, working at, I don't know, a pizza parlor, hanging out, and didn't know anything about digital marketing or compliance or copywriting or E comm and didn't know how to network and didn't. Wasn't part of a mastermind and any of that stuff. And he was like, I'm like a million dollars. I still wouldn't say that he couldn't do it, but it would be a hell of a lot harder because he wouldn't have anything in place. So you do have to have this stuff in place. But once you do get those things in place, making a million dollars is not that hard. I know it sounds crazy and maybe that's a mindset thing too, right? Because if you told me a few years ago, six years ago, that I could make a million dollars in a year, I would have been like, I believe it, but I'm not there yet. And now my income goal was like a million dollars a month, which, by the way, I'm not hitting that right now. But I made 750,000 in May. I made, I don't know, 400,000 in June. And I'm hoping July is going to be back up at 750,000. So guess what I'm not doing. Am I bummed that I am not making a million dollars a month? Like, in income? That's income goal, not revenue goal. Revenue goal. I'm doing, I don't know, whatever, 2, 3, 4 million a month, but maybe more. But like, no, I'm like, sure, I want to keep going for my goal, but turns out when you make half a million dollars a month in income, not that awful, you know, things are still. You're still pretty happy. So I just really want to make that point again of like, you have for me, I'd rather have the big goal, but you do need to get the right resources in place. So this call is an example. Like, I'm Trying to be a resource for people. I'm trying to do it in a way that can reach as many people as possible in an effective way and create leverage. But that's kind of my monologue on this. I wanted to share. And then, Ed, I do want to bring you in because obviously this all started with a question that you asked to Justin. And I want to kind of get your take on everything and how you kind of feel and maybe after hearing what Justin said and how that affects your mindset and everything as well. So I'll pass it over to you for a minute.

Yeah, for sure. I think one thing I've learned, and I understand where Justin's coming from, because for the past five years, I've really been chasing the dollar signs, I guess you could say, while putting my personal happiness second. And that really had an impact on me. Not in the best way, but on the other hand, it got me to where I am. And now I feel like I've put in the work up front so I can enjoy myself. But the one thing I think is important to note, like, yes, set big goals, but it's also about, like, not being attached to it, I guess, because it's like, sure, like, my goal this year is to shoot for a million in income, but what does that look like? Right? And if I don't hit it, am I going to cry?

No.

I mean, I'm just gonna create my life in a way where I can create that income while still living the life that I want to. And that's one thing people forget about. It's how can I get the goal that I want to have while living the life that I want? So let's say my income goal is 300k this year, which, by the way, I'm already on track to do that. So it's like, that's fine.

And what do you do last year, by the way, if you're comfortable admitting on camera?

Well, in Canadian dollars. So in like $1 US in Canadian, that's like, there's like 54,000 last year, and I've already cleared four times that. No, sorry, no, no. Like, my yearly income, I already made that in three months.

Yeah. So you're tracking to do like 300, which would be, you know, 4 or 5x way more than that. You say you did 50, so like, yeah, 6x what you did last year, and we're like, only the halfway point. And you're still just really getting momentum. So that's where, like, to me, it's like, now you're you're charging more. You're creating for. I mean, I think, you know, you'll probably end up at 500 plus and again, maybe a million. But. But even that, if a random person, so many people on the street, if you came to them and you're like a year ago, and you're saying, hey, I'm making, you know, 50,000 a year. I'm gonna make 500,000 next year, people would tell you, whoa, whoa, whoa, junior, you know, like, slow your roll. You know, take it step by step, all that. But in the reality, like, you just. You're doing it, like, right. You got the. You have, like, the mastermind, the support network, the right mindset, the skills, all these things, and you're making it happen.

Yeah. And the other. The other thing also, which is a huge part of it, which I love talking about, is finding opportunity where people don't see anything. Like, I've. I don't like to pump myself up, but I truly believe, like, I'm one of the pioneers in the Facebook compliance industry. Like, I don't know anybody else who does it basically, except, like, maybe one of the one. One other agency.

Yeah.

So creating an opportunity and spotting it. If I was just like, oh, I'm going to do, you know, if I set small peanut goals, let's say I did, you know, 50k last year. Okay, you know what? I'm a 3x my income this year, I'm just going to do 150k. I wouldn't charge what I charge. I wouldn't have to think at a higher level. So that's the other thing. Always begin with the end in mind. So if I want to make a million bucks a year, well, how much do I have to make a month? How many hours do I want to work a day? How many clients do I need to have or want to have? Then how much I have to charge per client to hit that revenue goal?

Or it's.

Maybe I want to be a business owner. Like a. Like a physical product owner. Selling coffee on e comm supplements. I don't know, E comm stuff or supplements. It's like, well, okay, how many units dropped to sell per day? If I like the thinking between. And I hate to say 10x, I really just. It just, it bugs me, but that's really what it is, is you reverse engineer your income goal. That's how you find out what to charge or at least how to start getting there. So again, million bucks, 83,000amonth. I'm doing like 16. Well, last month, I Did. I'm just gonna say I don't care. I did a 16.7K last month working, like, two to six hours a day and taking weekends, believe it or not. If you know me, that's like, never happened before. Never believed in weekends. And I actually took a hit because this one sales that I wrote is pure performance. And my client says that that sales letter is probably going to pay out a minimum of 60k in royalties this year. So I should have made more last month, technically, but if I was going for just 150k this year, I wouldn't have pushed myself to raise my prices. So from. And this is just very interesting from. Is this helpful or just. Just me rambling? I don't know.

I think it's. I think it's helpful. I'm very happy to have you on the call too, because you're making so many really good points, including about the breaking down the goal stuff, like, you know, which we talked about. Like, I do if an hourly rate. Right. And then the other thing really quick is that you did point out, and this is the point that Justin made, and I want to give Justin credit for it, is it's not. You do want to enjoy where you are too. Like, being happy, enjoying life. Like, you don't necessarily want to make yourself miserable because you're so obsessed with, like, the end in mind. You do want to have the end of mind. But, like, you do, that doesn't mean you can't also be living a good life today and also kind of putting yourself in. Yeah. Like, I see Elizabeth Barnes saying, is extra work worth it? Right. And I think, you know, that's a fair point. But again, I think if you can design it, like, right now, I'm working like, six hours a day, and I kind of hate it. I want to work more, but at the same time, I'm not going to an office. I'm spending more time with my daughter. I'm going for walks on the beach. So even then, I feel like if I was working 10 hours a day, I could be doing, like, even maybe closer to my goal faster. But then I'm like. I look at it and I'm like, well, I don't know, again, I'm making, like, half a million bucks a month, sometimes more. I really think I'll get to a million a month before the end of the year in income, and I'm working six hours a day, so I can be okay with it. Okay. It's gonna take a little bit longer. Fine. It is what it is. I consider I'm being bitter that I can't work those extra hours or I can enjoy the time with my family and, you know, my life and everything as well. So I just want to. But I do want to give. I mean, Justin made a really good point with that. And, Elizabeth, thank you for bringing it up again. I'm not, like, I'm not throwing shade on Justin here. I'm just. I just disagree, you know, on that philosophically. But I'd go ahead for. Let's go for another couple minutes and we'll hop into questions.

For sure. You got it. So when I left my previous job as a copywriter, I got. I got hired to write a sales letter for a VSL for 2000 bucks. I was like, yeah, I'm so stoked. Yeah, let's do a vsl. And then I got hired to write another sales letter for Justin Stefan for 5K. And then I got hired last month to write a sales letter for 10k. And now my price is 15k. So if I just was, oh, I'm happy with where I'm at. I'm comfortable. I wouldn't charge more. I wouldn't provide more value to my clients. I wouldn't make sure to go above and beyond to do my best work. And by the way, Stefan, about your freelancing course, I can help with that. Super excited for that.

And.

Without that little bit of push, that little bit of discomfort of I'm not hitting my goals yet.

It's.

It's good because it pulls you to success. A lot of people try to push themselves to success. If you just set a. A realistic but ballsy goal. That's what I like to do. Realistic but ballsy. I truly believe I can do 1 million this year. That can happen. It's realistic but ballsy. But if. If I was to set a goal like, oh, 5.5mil this year, it's like, I just. I don't see it right now the way that I'm doing things, and maybe that's my own mindset issues. I don't know. But for sure, it's important to be happy with where you're at right now. Be grateful for where you are. Be grateful for the struggles. Learn to love the process. Learn to love yourself going through the process, no matter how painful, difficult, annoying, or challenging it is, then be okay with feeling like there's more for you out there. There's that little bit of, I guess, discomfort, dissatisfaction. There's that little bit of you want more. And a lot of people in our society they're not comfortable with that they're not comfortable with, oh, when is enough enough? Because they don't believe that they deserve more. If you believe you deserve more, you'll get more. I'm just rambling at this point. I don't know if that's helpful.

I think it's super helpful. And Chung, I see the question you just asked about raising your level of belief. Let's pop that in the Q and A. And we can totally do that. But no, I think it's great. I do want to, you know, there's a lot of questions, 28 in there, so I want to jump in. Yusuf. Yeah. Content but never satisfied. That's the thing, right? You can be happy. Like, you don't like where people get in trouble. I just said we're gonna do Q&As, but I'm talking for 30 seconds because I think where people go get off track is where they aren't ever content and they never, they don't ever celebrate their wins and they sort of like, are constantly being so hard on themselves that they never stop to enjoy things. And if you live life like that, live life like that, you're gonna get, like, burned out and not. It's hard to have motivation, you know, like, like the, the, the whip kind of the self flagellation all the time. It works short term, but it doesn't work long term. It's not sustainable. You can have a burst where, sure, you just are really hard on yourself and maybe it helps you to move forward, but it's very rarely sustainable. So you do have to find that balance. But yeah, with that being said, let us jump into some Q and A. Zad do you want to go through? And let's start knocking these out.

Got it. Got a really good one here from Christopher Ogle. Christopher asks. Hey, Ed and Stefan, question for this week. What other ways would you find inspiration for curiosity based emails and topical news emails aside from building a swipe folder and watching what other creatives are working?

Thanks. What's up, Chris?

Hey, Stefan. Hey, Ed.

All right.

So yeah, I'm going really well. Thanks.

Really well.

So in Justin's video series for writing emails, he explains the top three niches are finance, health and conservatives. Yeah. So broadly speaking, it looks straightforward to write the story, the curiosity and topical based emails. But let's say that I wanted to focus on something like gut health.

Okay.

Because it's an area that I'm more familiar with. What I'm finding is challenge in finding additional places to get ideas for Curiosity or topical based emails, like for example, gut health in the news, Would you go for celebrities? Or how would you find additional inspiration for those two curiosity and topical news emails?

So what have you tried so far?

So so far I really just joined a few lists and paid attention to the emails that are working. That are working. I've looked for some celebrity examples and found a few, but I felt like that would kind of run out pretty quickly. And I suppose I've been focusing so far on the story based emails because I get a lot of that stuff from like Amazon reviews and everything. So that's what I've done so far. And then just Google news searches and come up with some stuff. But it's nowhere near the amount of topical news that you get for something like Trump for example, which is just, you got so many examples and so many ideas for that specific area. So that's what I've tried so far.

When you search like Google news, what phrases have you searched?

Things like, things like gut health, digestive.

Health.

Digestive health, gut health, celebrities, that sort of stuff.

Got it. Yeah. Because I mean one for me is just like I just did a Google search of probiotics and then clicked on news and you know, the big story trending right now, can probiotics help ease depression? Which then if I can bridge that gap so that I could Google like celebrity depression and be like, if there's stories about celebrities who have said that they deal with depression, you could be like, you know, oh, so and so talked recently about the news about their brave fight against depression. And while my heart goes out with them or for them, to them, whatever heart goes out to them, there's one pretty simple hack that could help. And in fact, it doesn't just help with depression, it helps with this, this and this. And it's actually found in your gut, you know, so like literally you can just take like any topic, like if you like, you know, again, probiotics, depression, and then find a celebrity with depression and then link it all together. And you're not gonna say like the celebrity took this probiotic and now their depression's gone. Right? We're not gonna. But you can just use it as, put their name in and then pivot to like something else. That's like one really easy way to do that. And you know, if you go, that was so a bunch of stuff about depression. I saw one in here about like animal, like animal feed, probiotics. Right? So to me that's kind of interesting because it's like, all right, so they feed animals probiotics. What happens? Maybe you could find something interesting about like the weird, the secret additive they put in, like animal feed that could make humans happier, healthier and give them better digestion. And then talk about how maybe, or maybe there's like a, you know, like a food recall. So I think you got to just go a little bit, you give yourself permission to kind of go a little bit wider and take some different dots that seem like they're disparate and then connect them together. That's the big thing. Like, so Andrew said that kind of like conspiracy theory, red string, push ups in the map thing where you just make all sorts of connections. Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I mean, I love doing that. I've done it a million billion times. Like even say there's a story about Melania Trump, you know, left a public like event to go to the bathroom and you're like, melania Trump's like toilet trouble, question mark. And they'd be like, oh, you know, there's a story about how Melania Trump went to the bathroom and people said maybe she was suffering from indigestion. Well, if she is, then one thing she should know about is this crazy 5 second gut fix. You know, like you just sort of take it and connect it. So that's like the big way to do that. And then beyond that, I mean, I've recommended the site before Science Daily, but going there and kind of looking at the new stories about probiotics and gut stuff too. But again, I would kind of like a conspiracy theory, all the red strings and you're just connecting the dots together. That's really the best way to approach that.

Perfect. Perfect. Because I was also looking at things like antibiotics, which there's a lot of stories out there about people taking antibiotics, completely ravaging their gut and, you know, now they're going to make their way back. So there's plenty of stuff in the news about antibiotics. But what you're mentioning here is interesting because it's kind of like that, you know, not having that experience and writing these is how far can you go if you were to send an email to a company to say, hey, test this out, you know, can you actually get in trouble for writing emails that go against antibiotics? Or is there a limit? Or you just got to experiment and just push the boundaries until you basically. Until you just get told no? Essentially, yeah.

I mean, it definitely depends on the company too. I mean, the big thing. And this is really an important takeaway for everybody on the Call. Because I looked at 18 letters for two brands based on the thing where I posted and had two companies hire me. And then I went and hired a bunch of writers to write copy for them. And I've talked about it other places. I won't go into it too much now, but some of the writers would just made up stories, right, like for their sales letter. And then those letters became unusable because there was for two brands like Altura Skincare, which is like a cool skincare brand. The guy's been on Dave Asprey's podcast three times, you know, and then Native Path, which is functional food. And so but they, the mistake is like the copy was actually good, but you've got to know what the client is looking for. So if the client is not the kind of client who wants you to just bring them some aggressive email or a made up story, then you can't do it. So it'd be helpful to kind of, maybe kind of get a feel for where the client is, like how they market already and if like they're open to pushing the boundaries. And then, Peter, it was you, but it was like five other people too, pushing the boundaries. But then, and then again, but like I said, then the other thing is if you're just sort of like using that to be topical but you're not making claims and you're probably, you know, you can probably get the company to go for it a lot. Like I see another one that's on page four of news about how probiotic combination reduces mortality in preterm infants. And you could be like, you know, some celebrity, you just had a baby and be like, oh, they had a baby and apparently the baby's really healthy. And you know what's funny is there's a new research showing one of the things that makes babies, you know, healthy is when the parents have a healthy gut. But you don't have to be a pregnant mom to have a healthy gut. Like, in fact, like, here's all the benefits. Like, you know, just like if you do that, is it really, like you're not saying so and so celebrity use. This had a miracle break. You're not making any claims, like you might get a cease and desist, I guess, but like it's, it's overall pretty, you know, it's pretty safe. So, yeah, hopefully that helps.

Absolutely. Makes total sense. I mean your example that you used with Trump recently in that sales letter, it's a perfect example. So you have how you connected the dots between something but didn't actually Say that Trump himself was using the telomeres and things for anti ads.

Exactly.

Perfect. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much, Stefan. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, happy to help. By the way, that was a big transition from all the mindset stuff to like email copy.

Hey man, you know, we help all kind of folks here. Next question we have is from Francis Waldecker. Francis asks, do you really need to get to build a presence on Facebook to start getting clients? How can I start getting clients even though I never really post on Facebook?

What's up, Francis? Give him. Hey, how's it going? Good. How you doing?

Not too bad.

Just having some lunch, taking a little.

Break, listening to your.

Your stuff.

Nice. Well, I appreciate that. I'm glad I can be your lunchtime entertainment, you know. Absolutely. Cool. So yeah, the question is pretty straightforward, but are you. So do you like, do you have an aversion to posting on Facebook? Do you kind of not want to put yourself out there or are you just sort of curious?

Yeah, that's, that's kind of more it.

Like I've always like enjoyed being like a more behind the scenes person. That's kind of why I like doing.

The copywriting and stuff like that.

Yeah, I'm not big about putting myself out there and doing things like that. And you know, like, I really just haven't ever wanted to build a presence on Facebook or do anything like that. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it helps putting yourself out there is helpful because like, you know, the people who post more often and are sharing more content, your name just gets out there more. Like even some of the people on this call who I haven't ever talked to in person, but they post in Justin stuff and talk copy or they're in RNBC applied or whatever. So I see their name and I'm like, oh yeah, like probably there's a lot of people in our kind of online marketing copywriting community who would be really surprised that like I know totally know who they are and I've looked at their profile before and all of that, but it's because like they comment a lot or they post or they're active. So I think there's a value to it. But if you really don't want to go that route, what else can you do? I mean, one of the most immediate things is joining a mastermind that sort of, right now there's not as many live events going on. And it's of course a, you know, a decision that requires an investment. But generally if you are in a mastermind and you're sort of meeting people in person and talking with them there. That will help. But as a writer and someone whose job is to sort of promote stuff, I feel like you kind of have to look at it like you should promote yourself too. I had trouble with it for a long time. I only started putting myself out there when we launched Copy Accelerator. So like a year and a half ago. Before that, I very rarely posted or talked about copy or did anything and I was already pretty successful at that point. But, you know, things have just like, I don't know, like we're not, we don't want to use 10x here, but like, you know, things have really like gone so much better for me since then. And Ed, I know you've been posting stuff about compliance. I mean, I'd love to hear your, your story on it too, Ed. And they kind of what you've done.

Yeah. So to me, when it comes to getting clients, I prefer a more guerrilla approach as well as having the building the farm, I guess you could say, or like, you know, planting seeds through daily Facebook posts. Because you have to build it up, you have to do all this stuff. You have to post daily. And that could be a large time commitment. If you're not interested, I highly recommend you do do that, but it's not mandatory. I would definitely say, like, make a list of people you want to have as your client. Like make a list of like 50 to 100 people. Go through, find your top 10 and just write some copy for all them for free. Find a way to reach out to them. Like if, if you have dream clients, they're probably in Justin and Stefan talk copy like straight up for the most, like pretty good chance if they're in the direct response marketing space, just find a way to find their name and just get in front of them. Send them free shit and tell them to run it. And if they like it, get them to hire you for pay next time. That's the best way to get all set up. And worst comes worse. If they don't hire you, they don't, you know, pay you. You just have more copy to show as a part of your portfolio to the next client.

I think another thing, Francis, honestly is maybe like if you just straight up don't want to put post stuff or comments stuff, then don't do it. Right. But because I want you to be miserable. But if you're potentially okay with that, I also kind of feel like maybe a micro commitment of I'm going to put, you know, one value post a month in just in the stuff and talk copy or I'm going to, you know, reply to like a few posts per month or whatever it is and you can start smaller. But it just, again, it just has made such a big difference. Like I can just tell you someone who puts out a lot of content now. Like, you know, there's obviously there's a mastermind, there's all this other stuff but like I get hit up, like I hit up yesterday by a guy who like has like 90 acres of land he's trying to sell. Sounds like a scam, but I don't think it is. He's in some other masterminds and he was like, you know, can I pay you to help me with how I can sell like this land? And it's like super, super random but kind of fun, you know what I mean? I'm like, okay, so somebody wants to pay me to just brainstorm on creative ways to sell like a bunch of property he has in like Florida or wherever it is. Like it's kind of cool. The more you put yourself out there, the more opportunities do come your way, you know. Why do you think you don't like it? You want to, can we, can we go deep for a minute? I mean, why do you think you, any of you behind the scenes. But I'm just curious, why do you think you don't like it?

I think one of the biggest thing.

Is like I don't like, I don't know like what I have to say yet right now. I mean like I'm been doing this for a little bit. I have like a little bit of success but you know, like I see because like I'm in copy accelerate. I post like I have rnbc. So like I see all these guys doing so much more and like I'm you know, in like a lot of communities with like higher level people. So it's always like what can I really say that like is worth reading now with all these people who've done more, probably no more things like that. So I think that's kind of at the core of it. Yeah, that makes sense and that's fair. But I think if you look at something like Justin the Stefan Talk Copy, where we're at, I don't know, 3500 members or so now. And yeah there's high level people but there's a ton of people who are middle, they're on their way up or they're wherever and they'll still get value from it. And I think if I were you, I'd focus on when you do go get those wins. Like, you know, here's three things, like three lessons I learned or, you know, three things I did that helped get this win. People love seeing that. And then the other thing too is even really high level people still aren't doing really basic shit a lot of time. I think that's a really important kind of lesson to learn. Like, I'm always amazed. Even for the supplement company I'm partnered in now, it's like we're doing one to two and a half million a month and there's a ton of shit we should be doing that we're not and we're working on it. But given that, even if someone say, knows it already, right? Say your dream client or an ideal client knows some of this stuff but they aren't doing it and you have a post that they happen to catch where you're showing how, oh, here's what I did and I got good results. They might just be like, oh crap, I know I need to do that. Like, and so let me reach out to this person, maybe they can do it for me. So that's a kind of an important distinction too. It's not just that, like you have to, you don't have to teach people. Like half the people you reach out to or the half the people are gonna maybe learn something for the first time and you're teaching them, but you're also sort of just reminding and you're just sort of demonstrating value. And those are the kind of things that everybody can get, you know, can kind of benefit from. If that makes sense. Yeah, no, that actually makes a ton of sense. And that's a really good way to look at it. Cool. Yeah, it's a huge thing. I mean, it's related to that concept I talked about about when you do like the cold reach out where you send someone a pre written email and like what happened yesterday where the guy did that? He sent me three creatives, but then somebody else emailed me and said, hey, I need some creatives. And I was like, oh, you know what, I'll just hire this guy because he just sent me these creatives. It's the same thing. I think the way the mind works is if you were writing about stuff and it happens to be a relevant pain point for somebody, then they're like, oh, I should just hire this guy. So for that reason alone. And again, just in your head though, don't make it a huge thing where like, fuck, I have to post every day now, three times a day. Just be like, I'm trying once a month or once a week or whatever it is, and you know, keep the bar low and just sort of get your feet wet, do it a little more. And I think build that kind of habit and, and over time you can start posting a bit more, you know, regularly.

That's so true. And Francis, you don't need to be this world class expert absolute. Like Stephen George, I have a copywriter. You can just be like, just be, just be where you are right now. Because odds, like if you're on this Collins show right now, odds are you're better than most copywriters out there just by the sheer fact that you're here. They're making a lot more money than you just because they have the audacity to do so and just take action. Just get started. And again, you don't, you don't need to be brilliant. You just need to be. What either. I hate how Russell Brunson says it, but it's true. It's, you don't need to be an expert. You just need to be one step ahead of your customer or client. And the funny thing is, like Stefan said, a lot of these guys, like, they teach the basics, but they don't do the basics. Like, one of my clients is a really big name in this space and they've never split tested a single fucking thing on their entire funnels. Any of their, any of their funnels at all.

Zero.

Yeah, let's say, let's say I put out a Facebook post saying, oh, here's my top three favorite split test wins. Or like, top three things to split test. Even if I have no experience, it's like, hey, you know, I was watching this podcast from this person and he was talking about this about split testing, and I want to make a post about that too. Here's my top three split tests. That client sees your post goes, hey, this guy knows what he's talking about. I need to split test my shit. I'm gonna hire him or her. Done.

Yeah, just one more cool example on this. Like, I got an email today actually from a dude, Hadley. I don't know if he's on this call or not, but it was like a testimonial email. And he watched the call that Justin and I did about getting better paying clients. And he mentioned how one of the things that Justin or I said was about how, quote, you don't have to be good or great, your copy can still convert and basically how even figure companies are only writing okay copy. And he was like, how he got inspired by that and went out and did that cold email outreach strategy. And the second person he emailed was Mike Bontempo, who was in Copy Accelerator. And then Mike was like, hey, bro, like, this looks good. Let's talk. And then he did some stuff for Mike, and now he's on Mike's team making a good salary. And this is the dude who had, like, very little experience, was in northern India and, like, didn't speak English, is not his, you know, his first language. And he's, like, loving life, but because it was just a mindset thing of realizing that. So going back to the point being, yeah, a lot of big people are still not actually doing, like, ever. I don't. Same thing. What Ed said about the split testing sounds crazy, but I know a bunch of dudes who. And dudettes. But it just happens to be more dudes who, like, barely monetize their email list, and they're like, well, I have like 350,000 customers. And, you know, we email once a week. And you're like, what is going on? Like, you can make so much more money. So anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse, Francis, but yeah, I think just go, like, you know, commit to, like, once a month or once a week or whatever you're comfortable with share value. And I do think ultimately it'll. It'll really bring you a big roi. Cool.

I'll start doing that.

Thank you.

Yeah, happy to. Happy to help, for sure.

And so there. There was a question in the Q and A. I'm going to hit two birds and one stone. I'm going to quickly answer that one that's related to this, which is how do you find opportunity? Because that's what I talked about earlier, and this is secret between us. I'm probably most likely gonna write a book on how to create opportunities. Got something I'm very fucking good at.

I know.

Anyway, so when it comes to getting clients, the way to create opportunity is to kind of is to find out where the gap is. So you could, you know, just by asking me and Stefan, like, what are the number one gaps that most business owners face? Right, so just, like, what step? What Stephan said about how most, like, big business owners, they don't even know how to. Not even how to, but they just don't monetize their list. Okay, so now you have monetizing lists. You have split testing. Just make a list of all these fundamental pain points that business owners face that you can solve as a copywriter and just make Content around it. Show that you're the expert. That's exactly what I do. I just make enough content enough times that's relevant enough, and it gets in front of the right audience that eventually they go, oh, shit, I should hire this guy. For example, today I made a post about, as a quote, all my ads have been rejected lately. It's really been affecting my business. If you're a prospect and you just had your ad get shut down, and I, I have some connections that have been telling me a lot of big ad accounts lately have been getting shut down. You read that, you're like, fuck, I gotta hire Ed. So just find out where that gap is in the market. Find out where that gap is, where your ideal client is and where they want to be, and be the bridge to that gap through your content by showing them you have the knowledge to help them get closer to their goal. And you don't have to be brilliant because odds are if they have a problem, it means they suck at it. So either they suck at it, they don't have time to do it, or they don't want to do. Doesn't matter if you're a 3 out of 10. A 3 out of 10 is better than 1 or a 0 out of 10, if that makes you feel any better. And it's true.

It is true. And another point too, I mean, because when you, you're, you know, obviously you've positioned yourself as a compliance expert, and you are a compliance expert, when you first went out on your own, you did sort of play around with what, where you should focus. You did. I just want to make it clear to everyone, Ed is practicing exactly what he, what he's preaching here. And you looked at you, you already knew compliance really well from your time when your previous position and you presented about it and want the copy, accelerator events and all that. But like, you, when you talk about, you're looking at funnel optimization, you're looking at some other things, but then you kind of realize, like, okay, well, there's a lot of people doing funnel optimization that's kind of broad. There's this. And as you really looked at it, you realize, oh, there's a huge need for compliance. Nobody's really doing it in a structured way. There's very few people who are positioning themselves here. And you also looked at the market and when people were having this pain point and you were like, okay, this is something I can do. So, A, Ed practices what he preaches, B, the other thing is like, don't be okay. Be okay with Pivoting. And I think I gave you that advice explicitly, Ed. When we talked about it, I was like, it's also okay to pivot. So say you're. Like, we all get afraid. Like, well, if I say that, I'm this and people don't respond, now I have to do that for the next five years. And it's like, no, you fucking don't. You can literally stop the next day. Like, what are you. You don't have to do it for the next five minutes. Like, you can try something.

Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point. Actually, I just had this. Ran into this just now where I told people I was gonna do a weekly newsletter for my, you know, my compliance stuff. And I know you guys are trying to get that from me for a while. I've just been busy. But I talked to Brooks, the client success manager at Copy Accelerator. He's like, dude, a weekly newsletter is a lot more work than you think. Just do a daily email list. Like, you already do it with your Facebook posts. So honestly, I'm just gonna pivot, screw it, and I'm gonna make a email list that just does it daily. Like, I felt stuck in this box, but the only person who can put you in that box is yourself. And as long as you deliver what you say you're gonna deliver to, who you're gonna. You're gonna deliver it to, that's all that matters. Like, people don't care if it's a fucking weekly, monthly annual newsletter from me. They just want to hear from me. That's the point, right? And when you can understand why it is that you're doing what you're doing, doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. Yeah, pivot, man.

I pivot all the time. I love pivoting. Skirt. Cool. And you can pivot back and forth, dude. I mean, it's like, okay, pivoted from copywriter to supplement offer owner back to copywriter to, you know, mastermind runner slash agency owner to copywriter to supplement owner to kind of like semi guru slash copywriter. Something like, you know, you can jump around. You don't. And you can always. You can have a bunch of things in your back pocket, and then whatever is the most relevant or you want to do at the time, you focus on that. You know, like, if I want to focus on my call center, I could go out and be like, hey, I'm the call center guy. I own a call center. I could totally just go out and just talk about that, and I wouldn't care that people Are like, oh, but you. Yeah, I do other shit too. Like I can just focus on whatever. But you can. Like, pivoting is a superpower. The thing that anybody can do and we shouldn't be so afraid of it or how we're going to be perceived if we pivot. Pivoting is how you get ahead. It's how you move and you make turns. It's how you're agile and, you know, it's almost like in basketball you can kind of pivot and travel down the court, but, you know, blow the whistle and basketball. But in reality you can just keep pivoting all the way to the finish line. So with that being said, let's do some more. I don't. I mean, I'm not good, great basketball player, Peter, but yeah, play some hoops every now and then. Let's do more questions.

You got it. Kimmy do asks advice for highly sophisticated market stage five.

What's up, Kimmy? How are you?

Hi, Stefan.

Great. How are you doing? Great, thank you.

Awesome.

You want to give me a little background on this? I'm glad to have you here.

Yeah. So I'm writing for the skincare slash, like fragrance and there's like a lot of solutions out there already. So what's your best advice for like standing out from all the other different, like similar products and solutions?

Yeah, I think there's a couple. It's. You have a couple options, let's say. So there's storytelling, telling better stories, which is one of the easiest ways because then it's not even about. It's about the product or the ingredient. But if you tell a better story than your competition, then you generally win. So if you can tell stories of the mission and the vision and the purpose behind the product, if you can tell a better story about the creation of the product, if you can tell a better story about the ingredients in the product. When you tell better stories, people are captivated by stories. So the best story often wins. And that's number one. And it's a really important one. You know, the other one, I guess is related, is with the ingredients. Like if, say that the formulation has 20 ingredients in it and they're pretty, pretty well known ingredients, but everybody else in the market is focusing on two or three of the same ingredients every time. If you can find some of the lesser, like promoted ingredients and the lesser known ones and then make those the star ingredients and they're good ingredients that actually have efficacy and everything, then that's a great way to differentiate too because you'll see there's a lot of group think even in marketing. Right. If everybody's talking about hyaluronic acid or everyone's talking about collagen or whatever, it's like, great. So if I'm going to do a skincare product, I'm going to barely talk about those at all. I'm going to talk about the jojoba berry or the like a Hawthorne sea extract, whatever, some other unique ingredient, buck buckthorn, like, you know, whatever that is like that people aren't talking about. I'm gonna talk about that as like my star ingredient because again, then I'm differentiating from everybody else. Those are probably the two biggest ones that come to mind immediately.

Awesome. So I'm hearing storytelling for one of them and then also for highlighting and making the lesser known ingredients to star. Yeah, 100% other people don't talk about.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think as long as they're good ingredients, obviously you wouldn't do it about magnesium stearate or something. Right. Like a person. But yeah, there's usually a bunch of really cool ingredients in these formulations and they have a bunch of really cool studies. And the challenge you'll get with doing supplement and beauty and kind of like products with ingredients is you'll have a formulator or somebody else who is really excited about one ingredient and they can tell you all about it and you're like, yeah, totally. But if everybody else is talking about that ingredient too, you're just not going to have as much of as easy of a time as going to one of the other ingredients. And you can still mention it, but you have to talk to them too about what's the goal. Is the goal to get the product in people's hands so they can try it and feel better and have more beautiful, radiant skin and do all these things? Or is it that you, you know, you want to just follow copy everybody else and so you have to kind of like maybe sometimes finesse it a little bit with them, but ultimately that's going to just give you a way better, you know, a return by. Is by doing that.

Yeah, for sure. That's super helpful. Thank you so much.

Yeah, happy to help.

Also, the other thing I want to add in is find out what the audience hates the most. And using Stefan's RNBC already do that, but really dial in on what they hate the most and really make that a selling point. So, for example, I wrote a sales letter and it's in the freelancers niche. Every freelancer has heard about webinars podcasts, funnels, and they're sick of it. So if you can come forward and be like, yeah, you can get the result you want without doing all this stuff, it's very intriguing because it sounds very new. So if you can hammer home that point of how this has none of the bad stuff they've already experienced, it's a lot more enticing to a sophisticated consumer.

Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is, like, highlighting the bad stuff that they're facing right now. So, like, oh, you can get this and this and this benefit without the bad stuff that's, like, in the market right now, basically.

Yeah. It's like, oh, well. And again, with Stefan's rnbc, which is by his course, you either take a problem like a negative, so find an issue with existing problems that are existing solutions that they have.

Right.

So let's say freelancer is easy for me to do webinars. They're expensive, they're timely, they're frustrating, they're difficult. They are, you know, all that stuff. So find problems within whatever solutions they currently have, as well as what that means to them.

And what it means to them. Yeah, and what it means to them.

Because it's like, oh, well, you're doing. Trying all these solutions. Well, they're actually not working that well for you. Here's why.

Right, right, right.

Thank you so much.

Sorry, I'm cut you off, Kimmy, or talk over you. I'm gonna keep doing it. No, I was gonna say, Kimmy, one thing I really appreciate about you, and you did this on the first question you asked a few calls back, is that when we give you. When I gave you an answer, it gives you an answer. You really make sure you understand it. So you say what I'm hearing you say, and then you'll repeat it. And I think you do that so that it helps you to learn better and so that you really get that clarity. And it's a really little thing, but I really appreciate that you do that because I think it really helps. You don't sort of feel afraid to, you know, clarify. Some people are afraid, like, well, if I ask for clarification, I might look dumb or something. It's a really literal thing. But I just think the fact that you do that, and I know you're only like, 16 or whatever, it's a great skill that you have. So just keep doing that.

Thank you so much, Steph. I really appreciate that.

100%.

Cool.

Thank you, Kimmy.

Thank you.

Yeah, Kimi's an excellent student. She was a. I taught her at the old program. I used to teach.

Great person.

Next up, we have Peter Liu. So Peter says he currently has a retainer client which provides steady income, but the scope of work is not defined, so it expands without much change in compensation. If you wanted to change this relationship to a clearly defined retainer, how would you approach that conversation? It's a great question.

What's up, Peter? What's up?

Yeah, so the question basically lays it out. I have a retainer client who provides, like, steady income. And, like, I like working with them so far. The problem is I think I've made a mistake and kind of just positioning myself. This was, like, months ago when we started the contract position. Myself as kind of like the copy guy. And yeah, so I've been experiencing the consequences of that. So anytime a new project that involves copy comes up, I become the go to. But the work expands, though the conversation doesn't really expand with it.

And.

I guess my question is, what do I do in this situation? Do I, if I want to have it clearly defined scope and turn into like, here are the deliverables you get each month for this amount. How would I have that conversation? Or like, should I just leave the client and find a better one? Not better one, but, like, I was wondering what to do right now.

Yeah, if it's me, I would totally have that conversation. I'd come in and say, I mean, how many? How some. I'm guessing there wasn't like a clear, like a defined, like 20 hours a week, 40 hours a week. It's sort of just like, you pay me retainer, I do copy for you. Is that kind of like what it was, the nature of the agreement at the beginning?

Yeah, in the beginning, it's a weird. It's a bit more complex relationship, but basically, yeah, like, originally, it's just to do emails and to give, like, copy feedback. But then it kind of goes. It starts small, like, hey, can you do some funnel copy? And then, hey, can you do, like, a little bit more here for the ads? And, hey, can you write a vsl? And then I'm like, no, I can't write a BSL if, like, there's no extra pay. So, yeah, yeah, basically that.

That makes sense. And what would your ideal outcome be?

My ideal outcome would probably be just to write the emails because that's kind of what we agreed to with the current conversation. But the thing is, on the team, I'm the only one who writes copy. So then I become the kind of the person they go to for copy. And my idea would probably be like write a set amount of emails every month and then I get paid that much. That's kind of what the ideal outcome would be. Or I could just leave the client, which I'm okay with as well.

Yeah, I mean, but there's no reason to leave him or her unless you have to. But, but so, but just so I'm clear, so you'd rather do the emails at the current kind of income versus get paid more income to do more work just to make sure it was just totally fine. I mean I, in fact I relate to it, but I just want to be clear that that's what you're saying.

Yeah, I guess a bigger context too is also I'm trying to lower my workload with like the current retainer clients or like have a clear scope so I can spend the rest of my time actually honing my skills, running more long term, long form sales letters like TSLs and VSLs. Like that's where I want to spend more of my time with and improve my skills at. And I feel like the client work right now with retainers are like kind of bleeding into that.

Okay, makes sense. No, it does. Yeah. I mean, then I would just have the candid conversation with them. I would say, you know, hey, love working with you and you know, really enjoying it. And I think, you know, you're getting a lot of value from what I'm doing and the emails and everything kind of like. Right, like, yeah. Okay, cool. Well, one thing I've noticed is that sort of the role has been expanding and it's outside of the scope of what we had discussed initially, which was me doing emails for a certain amount of money on retainer. Given that, honestly I don't have the bandwidth for the expanded scope, I really want to focus on doing what we set out to do, which is delivering excellent emails for you and really hitting out of the park. And my concern is that doing these other tasks, you know, takes away from my bandwidth. And you know, not only that, but I would, I would need to be compensated more. But honestly, again, I'd rather just focus on these emails. What I can do though is I have an awesome referral. Like I'm hooked in with all these copywriters. I can, you know, for somebody who's doing this additional work, I can connect you with, you know, a great writer or you know, introduce you to a couple and help you with that process and they can do it hourly or you can put them on retainer as well. But you know, that way I can focus on emails and you can get all these additional copy needs being met and, you know, continue to grow your company. I'd really just approach it pretty logically because if you're. One of your scenarios is you just leave them. But it's like, why. Why do that? Unless, like, you know, they say, no, like, we're going to pay you the same amount, but you have to do more work. And then you can be like, yeah, f you and leave. But it's better to just sort of tell them, you know, hey, this is what we set out to do. This is a scope. But then, you know, solve the problem for them. Like, be a, you know, be helpful. Be like a. A trusted advocate for them by bringing somebody in who can, you know, can assist with the additional copy for them too.

True. Okay.

That makes a lot of sense.

Sweet. Sweet.

Okay, thank you.

Yep. My pleasure. Ed, let's go. Who's next? Let's do it.

We got this. You know, we'll do rapid fire. We have a question here from John Kim. What are your thoughts on hiring a coach?

What's up, John Kim? Double John Kim.

Yeah, I wasn't sure which one's him, so I put two.

John. I see one John unmuted. Two John's unmuted.

Hey, Sorry. Can you hear me?

Yep. Yes.

Yeah, I have the running on my computer, on my phone. I just don't have a mic on my computer. So that's why you're seeing double.

Cool.

Sorry about that.

Only thing better than one John Chemist, too.

Well, thank you for taking my question to give a little background. My question comes from after doing the sales letter for Alantura and definitely felt the pressure when I got that because it wasn't just for any client. It was for you and an important client of yours. So RNBC definitely helped me finish the project, but I didn't have a lot of knowledge on skincare products from the start. So pretty much from the beginning, I did everything I could think of and.

I bought the product.

I ran a focus group with my friends to get feedback, watched a bunch of YouTube videos, even hunted down one of the testimonials on the client's website and interviewed them on the phone. I pushed everything aside, spent every waking hour on it for three weeks, and the result was just not that compelling. I thought it was good when I submitted it. Now I think it totally sucks. You know, so just to wrap up the thought here, you know, this was a unique project because. And I was getting paid regardless of it being good or Bad. But I hate to think that I turned in something bad, you know, So I definitely felt that imposter syndrome that.

I heard a lot about.

But instead of feeling defeated and I want to make it right for the client and, you know, get better myself, which is why I'm thinking about hiring a coach, you know, to get that individual guidance and eventually rewrite that letter. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Is it too early or, you know, is it never a better time?

I mean, my concern with hiring coaches is that most of them suck. Just flat out, like, there's a bunch of people who are going to come in and, like, try to, like, coach you and teach you a bunch of bad habits. And, like, they aren't, like, good. There's a couple good. I mean, Dan Ferrari is a great copy coach. David Deutsch is a very good copy coach. There's a couple. They're expensive, but honestly, like, yeah, ning's good. There's some out there. But the other thing I want to kind of point out, dude, because like, I. Speaking of the imposter syndrome, obviously, is I, you know, I read it and reviewed it and give you feedback. And Andy and I's conversation was, oh, look, like, this is a very good effort. It's a good letter. It was totally worth $5,000. It just wasn't as good as some of the very top ones. So I want to be clear about that. It wasn't like the. We didn't look at it. Nobody looked at it and said, this is a bad letter. In fact, I think your copy was absolutely worth the $5,000 you got paid for it, and so did Andy. And I think that's a really important distinction. In fact, you followed RNBC really well. Your lead started for paradoxical question, which was really good. I know. Sorry. For people who don't haven't read this copy, it just is what it is. You know, you did a good use of testimonials. You told the story. I mean, some of the big things, if you watch my video and my feedback to you was, was like, more formatting, like, do more subheaders. It was, you know, making little, like, tweaks in the lead or the headline. So with that being said, like, my sort of feeling on it is like, you gave. How long have you been writing copy for?

About two months.

Yeah, so it's like. It's crazy, you know, it's like you've been writing copy for two. I'm not trying to laugh. I'm not laughing at you. But I'm laughing at because, like, in two months of writing copy, you know, you wrote like a sales letter that's extremely, like, good. And so my opinion on it is you don't need a coach. You gotta just keep writing copy copy and keep getting experience and keep practicing and keep consuming content that people who know what they're talking about put out and all of that kind of stuff. But yeah, and I know it's hard when you write something and then you kind of like, like it and then you turn around and you hate it. Like, we, we can be very bipolar as copywriters, but like, realistically, again, what you wrote was, was very good. It was way better than what I was writing after two months. I mean, hashtag RNBC method, hashtag, you know, go buy it, but at the same time, you know, seriously, so. So no, I don't think you need to coach. I think you see to keep, keep practicing and then be a little less self critical because you're for. I mean, you're. You're on your way already for sure.

Yeah, well, first of all, everyone should buy it. Because if I didn't buy rnbc, like, I wouldn't have finished, that's for sure. So that was amazing. But I guess, you know, just the thought of the coach, like, being so new to it. The only person that I really, I guess have connected with that is a star is you. And I know that you have a bunch of people asking questions all the time and it's, you know, I don't want to bother you with something. I know you're talking about, like, follow up a bunch of times, but, you know, I just don't want to be that if I'm. If I can get my questions answered somewhere else. And it's like, maybe if I had somebody where I could show them my letter before I turned it into a client and they're like, no, you should not turn this in. You know, work on this stuff. I just didn't have somebody to really ask that, you know, so that was the idea of, like, maybe I should hire a coach. At least somebody who's knowledgeable on RNBC and like somebody within, like the world, you know.

So can I jump in on this?

You can, Ed.

Okay, John, I'm gonna lay off you real flat, buddy.

Cool.

You're a good fucking copywriter. It's only been two months and Stefan barely had feedback for you. Like, just let that sink in for a minute. He just told you the Google Doc that you sent him was worth the $5,000 your words on paper are worth $5,000. Think about that for a second. You just had the world's best copywriter tell you your words are worth $5,000. And you started two months ago. Two months ago.

Can I put it. Can I put the link in the chat so people can see it? Are you okay? If that would make you uncomfortable.

Well, I don't know. I still don't think it's good. Maybe it's just because I'm rewriting it or I'm looking at it, I'm like, I need to scrap the whole thing and rewrite the whole thing. Like, you can share it, of course.

You know, but all I needed.

Still.

You know, I feel like there's definitely room for improvement.

Sure. Yeah, there's totally room for improvement. Like, that's. But that's. That's great. I mean, there's room for improvement for everybody. There's. I mean, all the people who join Copy Accelerator and like, you know, like Randall Pruitt or Ed, like, or whoever. Like everyone, right. Like, we're all continuously improving, but, like, you know, but I think it's more about the imposter syndrome, like, you're calling out than anything else because.

Right.

You know, again, copy is like, it's very on point, I think. You know, again, I just don't think you need a coach. I think if you want, get, you know, connect, network, right. People on this call people in. Justin Stefan taught copy, like, create a, you know, build those relationships and you can have like, you know, friends and accountability type partners and people where you can share stuff before you submit it. I think that's totally cool. I know. I mean, Chris. Chris Adad is one of the best copywriters to ever live. And he had like, a new offer and he, like, sent it to me before he, like, was finished with it a few months back and was like, can you. You tear us apart? You know, like, it never changes. Like, it's like. And then I did. I went through and I thought overall it was good, but I gave him feedback on a few things and. But I would do the same thing, right? I would send him something or Dan Ferrari something, but I think that makes more sense. And I would. I would, you know, do somebody who's also been trained in rnbc. Darren Hanser said. Right, right, right. Darren's a great example. Darren has always been a very good copywriter, but, you know, his really, really kind of taken. Taken off, you know, in the last. Whatever. It's been Darren, like, since February. I mean, just like more Consistent because of rnbc. I love that you're on this call, but I, again, I just see it, dude. So many people I know who do coaching are like not that good of writers and they're not that good of coaches. And I see people who come in to even copy accelerator who had a coach previously and they have all these bad habits that I have to then unbreak or I've had people who are like. Like one guy who joined and he was like a coach and he coached other people and he came in really cocky, but it's like he kept giving bad advice. Then he couldn't make enough money to stay in the program and like dropped out of the program. And it's like I just. There's a couple of good coaches out there. I just don't think you need it, man. I think like, I think you need to be less hard on yourself. I really think, like, you got to sit and meditate and like build a network of people of like friends. Like people are sending you friend requests right now. Self love. I just really think. Yeah, I hope that. I hope that answers that. I mean, I can't change your mindset on it, but like, seriously, dude, like, I would tell you if it sucked because I'm not going to like my job. I like being positive, but if I thought like your letter needed a shit ton of work, I would just tell you. I'd be like, hey, dude needs a shit ton of work. You know, it was. It wasn't perfect. There's stuff you can improve, but that's good. Like part of me telling you stuff to improve is to make you better and give you value. And so not only did you get the 5K, you got the feedback that gets to help you with it, but just keep writing like Darren said, you know, keep kind of keep. The more you write, the better you're going to get. That's the best way. And then studying, copy, study winning letters, do all that kind of stuff. But that's how you're going to get, you know, kind of keep getting better.

Definitely appreciate that. I guess I was looking at the coach because I didn't want develop those bad habits like on my own. And I was thinking maybe a coach could give me that course correction, but I never really thought of it as. Well, I appreciate you telling me that. People have been coming into copy, accelerate and learn the bad habits from certain coaches. So it actually gives me a lot to think about. But one thing's for sure, I'll just keep on writing and figure it out along the way. Appreciate your feedback. I definitely want to make it right with this letter. I'm going to rewrite it eventually and present it to the client. So hopefully that's okay.

Yeah, I think it's fine. He'll test everything. But again, if I were me, I would just, I mean, actually go back. I don't want to. I have it on the other monitor. There was just like little things like my. What I. What I. The feedback I gave you was like more nitpicky. It wasn't like crazy structural flaws. I think maybe I forget your mechanism. Maybe that I said needed to be like strengthened a little bit. What's your mechanism? What was your mechanism on it? Do you remember?

It was the DNA switches from colostrum bring in.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good mechanism. I think a lot of it was just like formatting. So anyway, I want to get to more questions, but. But yeah, don't even. It's not like you don't have to rewrite from scratch. Honestly, dude, like just look at. You know, I would just apply the advice I gave you first and then share that draft with me and then we'll go from there.

Okay, thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

Okay, sweet.

Yeah, John. And send me a friend request on Facebook if you haven't already.

Cool, let's go ahead. Who's next? Keep them coming.

Next up, let's find someone who hasn't been around for a while.

Cool.

Very interesting question from Elizabeth Barton. Advice on split testing a Clickbank offer. Client says he has challenges with split tests on ClickBank because the quality of the traffic from affiliates is so varied. Product has two big, unique mechanisms. My thought was to test them against each other.

Sweet.

I love to talk. Oh, it says I need to promote her to a pound to a panelist to talk. And she's an older version of Zoom. Okay, that's fine.

Elizabeth. She just wants to get on that panelist.

Panelistine on that panel is Grind baby.

Elizabeth, how you doing? We'll give her a second.

Yeah.

See the muted? Yep. There she is. Can you hear me? Hey. We can. How are you? Okay, good. How are you? Good. So, yeah, I mean, you know, if you want to. Obviously I've read the question if you got any kind of feedback. Sorry. If you want to give me a little more detail on it. Would love to hear that.

Yeah. So after what Ed said about some clients. So this guy has been selling online for more than 10 years and has multiple seven figure businesses. So my first thought is, I mean, if you're running a split test. The traffic is split. It's not like that's going to.

Oh, did I, did I lose. Can you hear Elizabeth at or no, I can't hear no Elizabeth. We kind of. You cut out there. But I'm not going to answer Elizabeth's question because I do get what she's saying. Elizabeth, let me. You want to try talking one more time? Let's see. Yeah, okay, you're back. It's a little, it's a little faint, so the audio is not perfect on this, but it's okay. But basically, just so I'm clear, I mean, you know, he's saying he has challenges split testing on ClickBank because the quality of the traffic from affiliates is so varied. And then you mentioned the two unique mechanisms and you're kind of thinking about testing both of them against each other. Is that, that kind of sums it up.

So what he said is, for example, one affiliate might send 5,000 visitors. That totally suck. And so there will only convert one regardless or a hundred that are really good and convert three.

Right, But I mean I don't use clickbank very much these days. Can't you just set it up so that like all traffic just gets split in half? I mean like, so then like who cares? Because like, okay, so say it gets a thousand crappy visitors, 500 go to one variant, 500 go to the other variant. And you know, maybe that is whatever. But then you get a thousand good visitors, 500 go to one variant, 500 go to another variant. I mean the way split testing generally works is that you can just split it across all traffic. And if you did that and you can do it by traffic source. So you know, if you're able to look in and see how it's built like that. Unless you can't, unless you can't track like individual affiliates, in which case he's got bigger issues. But assuming he can, then he should just be able to split across all traffic so then you still get that data because you know, you get to see for each person who sent you know how the data, how each variant worked.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. And then I think I would, I was doubting myself because of the fact that he has been selling online for 10 years and has multiple, multiple seven figure businesses. So I think that kind of made me like, okay, but that exactly like you said, a split test is splitting it in half. So regardless you are still getting a result. But after what Ed said, maybe he doesn't run split tests. Probably it's like one of these big marketers that's he had. His business is successful, but maybe he doesn't run very many split tests. And that's. Yeah. I don't know.

So, yeah.

Mechanism part though. Should I split test one of them against each other? I mean, that's.

Yeah, I mean you totally can. I think like the biggest needle movers on split tests are normally going to come from stuff like the headline and the lead. The mechanism can totally be a needle mover too. But generally, you know, doing two variants of. Because the earlier in the copy you're doing a split test, the more eyeballs are on it. So if something keeps eyeballs for longer, it increases conversions more versus if it's down here where you're only getting so many people anyway. But it's totally an interesting split test. Again, the most dialed in ideal people are split testing everything. So that's totally one that you can. That you can run. Absolutely.

Okay. Okay, great.

And Katerina said use cbsplit.com it works for ClickBank vendors to split traffic. So maybe recommend that to him. Honestly, my gut on this is without knowing the client is he's probably just kind of like. But people get stuck in their ways. It's like if you talk to some old grandpa and they have some belief that they. Or grandma, whatever, but they can't, you know, some belief they can't change. And you're like, this is so annoying. Like, why can't you change? You know, your, like, why do you insist on, you know, not getting a cell phone? They're like, cell phones are. They're just too much hassle. And you're like, no, they're not. Like, it's fine. And you get. But you get clients like that too. I mean, I've had it so many times. Even people I've been partnered with in different things where they sort of give you this like curmudgeony old person excuse of bad split testing. That's too much work. And you're like, you're running like a multimillion dollar company. But never. We always want to. Again, I said it earlier in this call. I know it sounds like crazy. It's like not that hard to make several million dollars with a business like doing direct response and building funnels. So we sometimes think that people who have done that must have these magical answers and really be dialed in. And there's a lot of like straight up buffoons who are making money in spite of themselves. Um, and so yeah, I don't. Don't doubt yourself on that, like, they certainly should be split testing and certainly can. Um, but, you know. Yeah, I think if you can get them to do that and help them to realize some wins and good. And if they are really resistant to it, like, continuously, then yeah, maybe at that point, you know, keep looking for some other clients as well who are going to be less of a pain in the butt.

Yeah, no, he's a great client. I was just confused. And I don't think he's resistant to it. I think, like you said, he has some idea in his mind that once, maybe once they did a split test and something about the traffic. It's probably just an idea in his mind for sure for answering that. And thank you, Katerina. Check out that.

Cool. Awesome. Happy to. And just to be clear, if that person watches this, I'm not calling him a buffoon specifically. I'm just saying, like, that people get sent in their way sometimes and they think things are harder because I've done the same thing. I think I talked about this. Not on one of these calls, I don't think, but like, affiliate traffic, maybe I talked about it last week. I don't remember, but how I was. Oh, affiliates. There's gonna be fraud. There's gonna be this, like, affiliate traffic's really confusing. I can't run affiliate traffic to my offers. And then like, I did it, finally embraced it. And then twice, 23x my business. But I had the resistance to it, too. But it was completely a BS resistance. And so, yeah. So I just want to be clear. If he watches this, it's not like I'm not throwing shade on him, but I want to encourage him to be open to doing his foot test with you. That's all.

Yeah, no worries. I agree with you.

Cool. Awesome. Thanks, Elizabeth. Cool.

Next up, question from Jose Olivo. How do you know when to do a TSL versus a VSL versus a mini sales letter versus a webinar?

What's up, Jose? Yo, Seth. And what's up? How you doing? Doing great. How are you doing? Wonderful. Thank you. You want to give me some context on that? Is it, like, for a specific project you're working on right now, or are you curious about this in general? Yeah. Making a free sales letter for someone who's about to come out with a guess course. Right. And usually with courses, they create webinars. Right. So I'm like, is there like a difference or something like that? What's the. What's the price point on the course? Like 497 and yeah, so I'm making the free sales letter for one of his products so like I can get a chance to write it right. That write a promotion for the course he's making. Cool. Which by the way, given. Given plugs today. But because Jose was one of the people and the, the kind of the client stuff and Jose's was one of the top three letters, so fact they're doing that for free. That guy's pretty lucky because your copy's pretty on point, my friend. You're welcome. Yeah. Given the generally. And I want Ed to answer this too, but generally, like for higher ticket stuff like 497, the webinar model works better. You know, for something that's a price point of honestly like $27 to up to about 100, 149, you know, like something in that range, like a tech sales that are VSL is good once you're getting to like a higher ticket. 497, 997 and beyond. Generally webinars kind of pull better from what I've seen. I don't, I haven't done a ton of webinars, to be honest with you. I mean I do like webinars, but they're sort of like half ass get on and teach and then be like, hey, if you want to buy something. But Ed, you've done, you know, obviously with your previous job and doing a lot of like stuff that's kind of higher ticket courses and webinars and stuff. Like I'd love to get your take on that as well.

I definitely say if it's 497, do webinar with or even a VSL. Unless it's like a super long VSL. Because I know that like the no pants project they did like. They have this VSL that's like 70 minutes or something and they sell like a 5k product. And apparently that like, that's crushing.

Right?

So I would. But it's, it's a vsl, but it's like webinar style. So it's a weird hybrid. But I would definitely say webinar for sure if it's over, like, like Stephanie said 149, like webinar.

Okay, makes sense. Sweet.

Cool.

Happy to have helped. And so mini sales letter would be like something for like $50 and below.

It depends though. It depends what you mean by mini sales letter. Because a mini sales letter could be like that and then you go to an application page and that sells a 5k program. Like what, what does a mini sales letter mean to you?

Oh, I Just saw the examples Stefan had in his the RNBC course. Yeah, those are normally good for. I mean one was like a. My friend who was running as an affiliate for an offer. So he basically created like a mini VSL script that then went to like a sales page and he was able to run that as like a Facebook ad, but it was kind of like a mini sales letter disguised as a Facebook ad. And then the other one was for like a sports betting group where they were selling like sports betting pics. Yeah, it depends on the niche and the category. I personally just feel like I'd rather go longer. Generally the places where short copy work are like free plus shipping type stuff where it's a really, really offer focused. Right. Like, so whether it's like a book or you know, a flashlight or you know, a wallet, credit card knife, thing like that. And you can sort of like, this is the product. Here's a demo video of it. Look how cool the product is. You know, hit a few things like you can get it for free, just pay for shipping. Like then like mini copy works there. You know, maybe if you're a more branded company and you have like a short video, like a three minute video on your website, kind of telling the story of it and you're taking the sales order outline, but you're applying it a more branded approach, that would be kind of a mini sales letter. But generally Even like a $50 product, I'd probably be still going longer. And it does depend. I mean, Marcus is talking about traffic. Like because, you know, if you're an E Comm. If they're just running to a pure econ page and they want to keep doing that and the goal is through Facebook ads, you know, they're going to drive traffic that way and you're going to redo the Ecom page and maybe then it's like a shorter mini sales letter because the ads are doing a lot of the selling. So it depends on the client and the traffic source. But you know, even for like a $50 ebook, I would definitely be doing a, you know, a long sales letter for it and stuff like that. Right, Makes sense. Okay, thank you.

Cool.

Let's do. I know we're at 11:30 my time, but as long as you're good, let's. Let's do a few more.

Yeah, I want to do. We have a question here from Chung Chung Tang Chung says, my first time. Excited to be here. My question, in your experience, which would be the most effective way to sell more of our $2,000 online course in July. And then he has a list of options which I'll let him read out to you.

Cool. Hey, Chung, how are you?

Hey, man. Super good. Thanks so much, guys. This is my first time here, so a little bit nervous and excited. Yeah.

Glad to have you here.

Yeah. So the question is, which would be the most effective way to sell our $2,000 course in July? And so I listed five different options and then I'll just give you the context first. So the course basically teaches people with investments, like in the stock market, they basically have $250,000 or more to manage their portfolio with confidence so they don't have to rely on a broker or an advisor. And then we did a promo to our list of 6,000 people and got 11 people to sign up. And basically the promo included two live webinars, 10 emails, two blog post videos, and then plus a $500 discount for people who bought within the first 24 hours. So we end up getting like 11 people buying the course at. Well, it was 10 people at 1500 and one person at 2000. So my goal really with this is to get another 10 to 20 people to sign up for the course by the end of the month. So my question right now is like, which option do you feel like would be? I should priorit because I'm sure I could do all these, but it's just a matter of priority. So A is email our list every day in July with some value and then a call to action to the core sales page. B, email our list every day in July with some sort of value but no call to action. And then at the end of like 10 days before July is over, we'd run a promo with a $500 discount. And then the course closes for another 20 days. C is to drive. So those two ways would be leveraging our existing email list. I'm not sure if there's any more anything else we can do because the list might be dead. But again, I can explain why more. And then C is drive cold Facebook traffic to core sales page. D is driving Facebook traffic to the free lead magnet. And then we offer some sort of self liquidating offer for $37 or something and basically a sample of the 2K course. And then, and then we email that list. We email everyone basically daily with a call to action to get the course. And then E is do a live webinar with two to three people who have an email list of say like 5,000 who. Who have someone in our who are similar to our audience. And then give them a $500 commission per for every person that buys from the webinar. And so the course would sell for 2,000, and we would give them five. $500. So that's kind of the.

Yeah.

So does that. Does that make sense? Like. Yeah, what I'm asking.

Okay, cool. No, it does.

Yeah. It's a lot of info.

It is, but it's cool. It's good. Context is good. Okay, let's roll. The one I want to rule out is probably just cold Facebook traffic direct to offer at the $2,000 price point. I think it's gonna be an uphill battle. Like, I never want to say anything is impossible. Big swings, you know, all that. But, yeah, I just think that one is not gonna be the best use of time. So let's roll that one out for now.

Okay.

When you sold to your list previously, sorry, you may have said this. Did you do it via a webinar? Did you just sort of promote, like, you know, value Call to action, Click here. Buy the course. Yes.

So it was.

So we.

We did the live webinar, and then we made the offer for some for people to buy, and I'm just looking at my notes. We did the webinar based on the 18th. Only one person bought around the webinar.

And then. Right.

Three, two other people bought, like, within 24 hours. And then a few more people bought after the deadline, but we still gave them the discount. And so the sales page wasn't even really finished yet. And it was just a checkout page. Yeah. And then a couple people actually bought in that group from the. So after we did the live webinar, I did the replay, and then, I mean, I create a replay page, and we sent a couple emails there just to remind people of the content and for them to sign up if they want the discount. So basically ran. We started the promotion, like, on the 18th. No, on the 16th, when we started promoting the webinar. And then we ran the webinar on the 18th, and between the 18th till the 30th of June, we got 10 sales.

Yeah.

And so in the past, like. Yeah. Does that answer the question? Sorry, I forgot your question.

It does. It's fine. My daughter came in and was waving her doll for a second. Yeah. I have three kids. Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool. I know. Yeah, it does. I mean, the thing I'm hearing is, like, shut up. I said I have three kids, too. And not that, you know, about, you know, but what I'm hearing is, like, the webinar works, right? Like, this whole kind of webinar model. We know webinars work. So it's like the live webinar plus the replay, you know, and then milling out links to the replay and promoting it. So I guess again, that'll get your take on it, too. If it were me, I would.

Oh, yeah, sorry. Can I say one more thing? So when that worked, so we ran a webinar on Thursday, and we had like, three sales come in, and then a couple more. And I thought, oh, that worked really well. Like, I think we already had. It wasn't amazing. Out of 6,000 people, five or six people bought. And then we thought, oh, let's do another webinar on Tuesday. We did another webinar on Tuesday, and, like, no one bought, not even after the replay. So I was like, well, that's. That's interesting. And then.

So it was like, it worked and.

Then just stopped working. And same webinar, but we changed the title. And basically we just had new people come in. But the registration list between the two webinars was very different. And the only difference was the title of the webinar. But the content was exactly the same. Actually, we had like. Like the first webinar, we had 100 people register and 50 people show up, or 53. And then I think like 30 people actually heard the offer, and we had 20 people stay all the way till the very end. But then the second webinar, we had 30 people register. I think we only had like seven or 10 show up. And I think at the end there was like, three people left. So, yeah, like, I was thinking, like, maybe we do another webinar. Yeah. And then one of the reasons I mentioned, you know, the list might be dead is because, like, we just promoted just a $49 live, like, Zoom call. That's $49. And we sent it out to the list, and we only got two people to buy. It's like, yeah. And it was about. It was about, like, the class was about like, should I go to cash right now with what's going on the market? And basically we position as like, you can come on, ask me questions about your portfolio, anything like that. And only two people, boss. I was just like, maybe the price was way too. So they're like, no, that's, it's, it's. And then. But again, yeah, so that's. And then, I mean, one. One good thing is someone just someone bought the course for 2k today. And it sounds like she just found us, maybe through our YouTube video, whatever. But looking at the the tags. So I'm just trying to figure out like what's the best. What should I prioritize for this month to get. Yeah. Because we would love to just get 10 more people, 10 to 20 people into this course every month.

Yeah. If it were me. And again I don't get your take on it, I would keep going with webinars but I wouldn't worry about your existing list. I would, I mean I think doing. Yeah. If you can do a live webinar of other people who have similar lists and you know, maybe take what you did before or maybe not live, maybe it's a replay of yours. Fine. You give them a CPA commission that will probably get you there. And then I would probably say you could run your. If the funnel lead. If the lead magnet funnel works in the self liquidating and you can do that. You could sure run that. But then maybe driving them via email and email sequence to like a mix of value and then maybe promotions at the end to the webinar. But I keep. And I'd have like a clear window like the webinar closes. This is your chance get the discount. So I would kind of do. I would just focus on the webinar as a selling, you know, mode for sure. And I would look at doing. Yeah. A combination of JVs and you know, getting new leads in the in through the door, which you can then get in front of the webinar in front of their eyes. And that's really what I would do. Ed, I'd be curious what you think as well.

Yeah, for sure. Like I. Chung, I think you're over complicating it.

Dude.

You really simplify it.

Yeah.

It sounds like your list is responsive also it might not be a dead list like if you still have good open rates and stuff because maybe I missed that. I don't think you mentioned that it could just be. Was a bad offer market message mismatch. Who knows why only two people bought that. But I would definitely say to do the live webinar and kind of maybe like once or twice or something to your list and then once you kind of have that dialed in, then you can start to go to affiliates because one thing you don't want to do is have an offer that doesn't land.

Mm mm.

So you're saying once that once. Once the webinar is. Is converting. Okay. Then find JV to drive traffic to the live webinar.

Yeah. And the other thing is did you. Did you send out a replay?

Yeah. Yes, we did two replays for both live webinars. Okay.

And did you do follow up emails? Did you have phone sales people for them to book a call with? Like, what's, what was your.

Yeah, no, we didn't want to speak to anyone. And so everyone who bought was. Was like, without speaking to anyone. And, and. Well, I mean, before we were selling the same course, but it was like the. We would give financial advice, but this one didn't include financial advice, but that was 10,000. And we booked tons of calls on Facebook, but for some reason we just, I think we only got like one sale a month for 10k. And we spent thousands on ads and a lot of opt ins, a lot of book calls. But yeah, we just got tired of doing sales calls. And so it was really cool to see these 10 sales come in without talking to anybody. And some. Yeah. And so it just kind of validated that, hey, people are willing to. Because no one, only one person asked for us to call them, but we didn't. And we just sent out a Q and a video saying, hey guys, a lot of you been asking questions. So I recorded a video answering the most important questions and then from that they actually bought that person. And so, but just. So let me just re. Recap kind of what I'm hearing you guys say, so I understand. So the conversion thing, the conversion piece is gonna be to do a live webinar and then at the end of the live webinar, offer some sort of deadline for them to act. So for example, maybe a $500 discount that we did and then to get traffic.

Don't do a discount, bro. Unless you want the price point to be 1500. Don't do a discount. Like, think about it, right? Like imagine, imagine you go to your, your financial advisor and they're like, hey, if you act in the next 30 minutes, I'm gonna, you know, instead of paying me $5,000 to your taxes this year, you only have to pay me 3,000. It's like, if it was that good, why are you discounting it?

Yeah, yeah, got it. So then we would have to think of a reason why for, for. I mean, we could offer one on one calls.

I would honestly make it like how interactive the program is. Like, hey, we only have space for 15 more people before we can't be that one on one.

Yeah, yeah, right. Okay, so like a reason around that.

Make it legit. Don't be like bs, fake scarcity. No, everyone hates that.

Well, I mean, honestly. Yeah, we could only, like I was just on the. Doing the coaching Call and yeah, like to go through 10 people's questions, it took like almost two hours. And you know, okay, so the other thing is. And then to drive traffic using our email list from now. So how do you like, what is a good webinar? Live webinar conversion. Because you're saying like once it, once it converts the live webinar, then, then get traffic from, from jv. So what is like, what is the.

Dude, it's whatever you're happy with. Honestly, it's whatever you're happy with. If you're like, hey, you know what? This webinar did X amount of dollars, we got this many sales. I'm happy with that. And I think like, if, if you're happy with it, that's what matters.

Yeah, yeah, got it.

And then just run retargeted like follow up emails, handling objections and basically send, like take your video where you have like the FAQ or whatever.

Yeah.

And then you just break it up into like a week long email series. Being on top of mind to them and then also offering, hey, if you have more questions, book a call with me or my team. You're gonna probably get a solid chunk of people taking up on an offer.

Got it.

So.

One of the things, I don't know if you missed this or if I mentioned it, like clearly is, oh.

Hey, John, by the way, I want to, I'm loving you on this call, but I do want to because usually I go to 11:30. So I want to, I want to give you value, but I want to go through and do some rapid answers for people. Sure, sure. Just because, I mean, I don't want to hate cutting you off, but like.

No, no, no, I totally understand. I totally understand. Yeah, no, I really appreciate it, guys.

Yeah, cool. Yeah, happy to help you. Yeah.

So let's do some rapid fire. Thanks so much, guys.

Okay, no problem, man. My pleasure. Yeah, happy, happy to do that. And I'm going to kind of scroll through the Q and A section here and I'm going to just sort of answer some of the ones I see. And that was a great question. Yeah, I really appreciate you calling in and asking. I again, don't want to make you feel unvalued. I just wanted to kind of make sure I could get through a few more things here. So I'm going to go through and find the ones I can find I can kind of answer the most easily. Marcus Ortiz, what are your strategies and tactics for recruiting affiliates and joint venture partners? Especially as someone with no network, creating a network. I Mean, like, you know, on Facebook, adding people who have traffic. Join DBRON's group, which is like a. I forget what it's called marketing, Direct marketing. If you look up Dbron and even message her, she's the Philly manager for natural health Sherpa, she has a really good Facebook group, bunch of people who are like trying to help each other. She'll probably just get on a call with you and help you. She'll give you traffic. D is D, E, E. And then Braun cs yours did. I'm rapid firing. I still see it. Or I saw it a minute ago. So anyway, DBron, if you can go to masterminds and events, talk to people, make friends with people of lists, like list owners, things like that, and then share your offer. Once you get metrics, leverage those metrics, that's something people don't do enough of. Be like, hey, I wouldn't go. You don't have to lie. But I'd be like, dude, yeah. So far as things testing like fire, you know, so and so tested it. They got this conversion rate, this epc, they were stoked. You know, it's a great offer. Would love to have you test it. You know, be careful because if you have a shitty offer and you do that and people test it and it goes poorly, then you can burn bridges. But generally, you know, building that network out through masterminds, Facebook groups. Join DBRON's group. You could post in Justin and Stefan asking for people, you know, help with it, all that kind of stuff. Yusef, your question about contacting offers on ClickBank got answered by a bunch of people. Uh, Peter asked, what's your number one secret tragedy Focus. I think it's strategy to gain filthy rich. What's my number one? I wanna, I wanna answer that, but I think discipline. Well, you know, it's honestly just focusing on being the best. Like, focus on being the best of what you do and really being obsessed with your craft and then being okay with sharing that with others, letting people know about your wins. Don't be like, feel like you're, you know, you got to be, you know, modest. And then actually, yeah, if I could resolve or if I could revise it, I'd also say the network, the network is crazy. I mean, we're looking for some kind of media buying team for some of the house supplement offers. I have, I put one post, I have a call at 1pm so an hour and 10 minutes with a friend who is just a killer media buyer running, you know, 500 to a thousand friends a Day for his own stuff, building out a team. He's like, hey, bro, you want to, like, partner run our stuff? He's like, sure. Then another media buyer at a huge company reached out to me and said, hey, dude, I'll do it. Like, so just having a great network is crucial. So a network and then focusing on being the best or the two best pieces of information there. Yousef said, one last question. When will Stefan's freelancing course drop? Probably about two weeks. I'm a little behind on it, but I just want to make sure it's good and I drop it correctly. You know, I do. I do the values there. Girling, has a client ever hated your work and told you redo it? And if so, how did you handle it? Yeah, Girling for sure. It depends on the client. If I can. I want to know why they hated it. If it's arbitrary, then that's kind of weird. Like, well, look, you still should test it, and if it sucks, then I'll redo it. Right. If they have good reasons for it, then sure. Like, maybe. Then I'm like, oh, that's a good point. Usually, though, if you do enough prep with the client, then the expectations are aligned. Usually when they hate the work, it's because the expectations aren't aligned. And then some clients are just a huge pain in the butt. So. Yeah, but I would push back. I wouldn't immediately internalize that as I'm. You know, it must mean I suck or something. And I would. I would see what their reasons are and then I would. I would try to push them to. To test it. And some clients are just a holes. I'm gonna find Dee's group and put a link in the chat real quick because I know somebody's trying to find it.

It's direct.

It's a direct marketing partners or something. Give me a second here. Of course, my Facebook's taking a minute to load. Anyone else has a link here it is. Yep. Damn it. Marcus had to beat me too. I saw the paste in my as well. Ideally you can afford to fire them though, but yeah, Ian said he was leaving. Don't answer his. So I'm going to skip that one. Ed talked about creating opportunity. It's a question about how much to charge, but I have some other good. If you look at some of the replays, you'll see information about that and some of the other episodes of Road to a Billion. We've talked a little bit about royalties and some of the other episodes as well. Cs I want to Read his. Because we talked with him last week and he said, hey, Stefan and Ed, last week you gave me advice for cold outreach. I took it and landed a 4k job. That's what we do on the show. Literally giving advice, people getting jobs. Love it. So sick. Love the implementation, the action taking as well. He said, then it's updated and I lost it. Give me one second here, Ed. This is hard. Need Ed to be my call guy. Okay, there it is. My question. I sent my finance ebook to a big name guy who advertises jobs and Copy Accelerator. He adjusted a zoom call, then asked for more samples of work. I don't have many samples of a quality level I'm happy with as a novice copywriter. How can I get give maximum value to someone at his level if he's a big name person and you feel like you can deliver moving forward, like if you feel like you're going to do a good job for him. I'd be like, you know, I don't have a ton of samples because I'm kind of new. I really want this opportunity. And then I would do something where either if you trust the person and their big name, you could a offer performance deal so you remove all the risk. I don't like doing that for most clients, but if they're in Copy accelerator and they're like high enough level, you could do that B, you could offer a guarantee. You can be like, look, I'm new, so if I write it and you hate it, I'll just give you the money back. I hate doing that too. But if it's a big client and they're proven and you think that they're gonna be good to work with in those cases, I'm okay with doing those things. Or you know, B, you could also say something along the lines of, you know, if you're not happy with it, I would just fucking alleviate the risk. I'd be like, look, I'm hungry, I'm learning, I'm training, I'm doing this, I'm going to crush it. And you know, I've studied, I know I'm going to do well. But if I'm not like, you know, you don't pay me and if as long again, I won't do that for a random client off of the street. But if they're a big name client, then I'm open to doing that. So that's my stuff there. I'm gonna do like two more and then end this call. Ed, you want to pick two more that you and you Or I can answer. Yep.

What's from Scott Bell? What's a good way to structure royalties? Do you step up basis for better performance over a certain watermark?

Yeah, way I'll do that a lot is like, one thing I'll do is here's like the baseline. Like, we agree that Scott, if you want to type in the chat, if you're still on the call, is it a beat your control or a new offer? I'll answer both real quick, I guess. Yeah, it's fine. For a beat your control, I would do like a. Okay, here are the metrics I'm trying to beat. If I beat those metrics, then one cool thing you can do is just like, you get a percentage. So say that it's converting at 1% and they want to convert better. And you're like, okay, for every percentage percent increase in the conversion rate, you give me X amount of dollars. So it could be $1,000 if you're me, or it could be $100, whatever. But, you know. So say it goes from 1% to 1.33%, then they pay you $3,300 or they pay you $33,000, depending on what you're charging, what that amount is, what you can get away with, who the client is, all that kind of stuff. That's a really nice way to sort of take a benchmark and then be like, based on that and the improvement, I get a bonus based on that improvement and percentage increase. Another can be benchmarks on, okay, the goal is this. If we hit these metrics, then I get this bonus. So it's not a royalty, but a bonus. So I did this with a big name in our space recently, and we're like, okay, if it converts that 1.2% and the AOV is $100 for an info product, I get $100,000 bonus. And if it goes to 2%, I get a $200,000 bonus on the conversion rate. And I did it for them. It's live and it's at $100 AOV, but it's at a 0.7% conversion rate. And instead of beating myself up about it, I'm like, okay, cool. I just got to do a new lead and headline for sure, get to 1% and get an extra $100,000. So that is a nice way of having some metrics, but you have to know what the metrics are and make sure they're reasonable and attainable. Because if you just kind of pick arbitrary metrics that are impossible to hit, then you're never going to get the money right. So it has to be something fair based on real data. Either they're giving you or your experience or whatever it is. And Ed, let's do, do one more. Give me one more.

I've already picked the one I like and I can answer it myself.

Actually do it.

So it's from David Ryan. Quick question. The biz op niche. Do you think people today are more motivated to find something to make 10k a month or to how to make millions? So it depends. Yeah, I secretly just wanted the last word.

That's right.

It depends on the niche you're going after. But I'm going to go ahead and assume you're talking to people who are in their 9 to 5 job. A really interesting level of thinking that most people don't realize is your prospect cannot see themselves higher than one level above where they're at currently. So if you're making $30,000 a year, you would never be able to see yourself making a million dollars a year. But if you were making 30k a year and someone said they could help you make 50k a year, that's only one level above where they are right now. So they can see that it's possible and they believe it's possible because it's within the realm of possibility. So going after more realistic numbers not only is less hype, it's also more believable and will increase your conversion rates by making it more attainable.

Yeah, that's really good advice from Ed, by the way. That's like very, very, very, very, very, very good and exactly right. Unless you're in this master or this group and then, you know, then you believe that you can go from 50,000 to a million. But the average person who's working, you know, their job, they don't like, they don't believe that. Right. They don't have the right mindset, they don't have the right people, the right, right influences, the right mentorship, any of that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, for those people, that's really, really valuable advice. And with that being said, we're going to wrap up. I feel like I talked really fast while I was trying to go through the Q and A to answer as many as I could, but it was rapid fire and you got to talk rapidly during rapid fire. But everybody, thank you guys so much, guys and gals, for attending. As always is a pleasure. I have so much fun doing this. If I didn't get to your question, I'm sorry. We'll get to it next week, but please, you know, keep coming back. I do this for everybody. It's obviously there's no motive on it. And just have a great rest of your week and we will all be talking next week, hopefully. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Ed, as well. I appreciate it.