[RTB:E8] “The WHY Behind Authenticity” - The Road to a Billion with Stefan Georgi

Hey, you're listening to the Road to a Billion podcast. I'm your host, Stefan Georgi, and I'm glad to have you with me here today. The Road to a Billion is a call and radio show where you can ask me questions about freelancing, copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset skilling, funnels, relationships, money, and more. Scaling to a billion and helping a billion people are the two reasons for the name of the show. So I've got offers and sales and things that are going to do a billion dollars in revenue as an aggregate by the end of this year. And my goal is to make an impact on the lives of at least a billion people in the next 10 years. So we're start taking your questions in about five minutes from now. The way it works is for people who are on the Zoom webinar, you simply are going to go to the Q and A, put your question in there, and then my good friend Mr. Ed Ray will read them off to me. He'll put you up on the screen and you'll be able to answer the question or, sorry, ask me a question and I will then answer it. And, Ed, do you want to go ahead and say hi to everybody and introduce yourself?

Hey, what's up, guys? Let me put on my hat real quick. Just got a.

He told me to take my hat off. I had a black hat on. He told me to take my hat off. And then he just comes out of nowhere and puts on his hat.

Dude, it's the switcheroo. It's the switcheroo. I just, you know, you know, like the UNO reverse card. I just played that on you. Oh, okay, whatever, dude. I thought we were gonna be white hat marketers. Turns out we're black hat marketers, so. Hi, I'm Ed Ray.

You know, my audio just cut out for a second, which is super lame. So introduce yourself while we're doing that for sure. That was a terrible idea for me to do.

Oh, yeah, your microphone was also cutting out too, a bit, so be careful about that.

Perfect. Ed, keep going for a second, if you don't mind.

You got it. So, hey, I'm Ed Ray. I help make people's funnels Facebook friendly so they can get some of those Zuck bucks. Super excited to be here with you guys and helping to co host the Road to Billion podcast. This is so much fun. This is probably one of my favorite activities of the week, you know, besides playing my guitar or going on my daily walks or buying kombucha. So really excited to be here with you guys. And thank you for having me.

Awesome. Thank you. Ed and I seem to have fixed my headset issues, but, yeah, I'm Stefan again. I also wear black hats. Really cool. You know, I used to be a black hat marketer. Now I would say I'm more of a white hat marketer. If you don't know the term black hat marketer, it's someone who's a little bit sketchy, makes big claims, does all that kind of stuff if they're marketing materials, you know, maybe tries to, like, trick Facebook when they're advertising. But, you know, now I'm, you know, I get a little more white hat, but my white hat's actually getting really dirty because I wear it on my daily walks, which I also take. Ed and I are actually basically just brothers from another mother, as you can see. But, yeah, so like I said, we're start taking people's questions and answering them in just a second here. Before we get to that, I generally do an opening monologue for these shows where I kind of talk about something for a couple minutes, and then we go to answering questions. I'll be honest with you guys. I don't have a super planned out one for today, but one thing that I did want to talk about, I went on a podcast yesterday. It's not live yet. It's called Intuitionology, and it's by a gentleman named Sunil. I forget his last name, but I'll definitely be letting you guys know when it's up. But it was all about intuition, which was cool. It's like, how does intuition play a role in your life? And all of that? And the two kind of cool things that my takeaways from it. It was a really good conversation. I enjoy talking with the guy a lot. Is one was he asked for my definition of intuition, which I kind of thought of really quickly and wrote out. And it was. For me, it's sort of the. It's when the voice in your head and the feeling in your gut intersect and align. To me, that's intuition, because it's like a head and a heart thing. And it's the thing where when you have your. You. We always have that voice in our head and we have a feeling in our gut, but that moment where you feel it in your gut and your head says to also follow the same, to do the same thing when there's an alignment there. To me, that's really how I define intuition. And it's made following, you know, kind of being attuned to intuition has made a huge difference in My life. So I just thought that was an interesting thought that I want to share with you guys. And then the second takeaway from that before we get started answering questions is about kind of authenticity. I talked a lot about authenticity. And you guys know that I try to be really authentic in my, on the show, in my emails and my posts. Like, I talk about depression, I talk about struggling with drug addiction, talking about fears, insecurities and failures and everything. But the really cool thing I've been thinking about recently, and that's true, is with my daughter being two and a half today, when I'm like writing and talking and creating content, like even creating this show, right, and doing these recordings, one thing I think about is how, you know, God forbid I were to like die tomorrow, which I hope I don't, I don't want to die tomorrow. I'm not afraid to die, but I don't want to die. But God forbid I were to die tomorrow. My daughter will always have this stuff. She'll have these videos, she'll have these emails, she'll have my writing, she'll have my content. And so that's a huge motivator for me to want to a put out a ton of content so that even if I were to go right, I would be able to, she would still have this and kind of know who I am as a person. But because of that, if I'm inauthentic and what I'm putting out, if I am inauthentic on this call or in these videos or in my emails or my writing or anything else, and then I lose that ability, right? Like the future instead of my daughter, you know, 18 year old, 22 year old, 25 year old, 30 year old, Eden, my daughter, you know, she sees this inauthentic BS picture of her dad and I can't have that because you know, what a missed opportunity that would be. So it was kind of an interesting thing to think about how authenticity is really important, but thinking about the why behind it, like, there's a million reasons to be authentic. Like, does it connect with people more? 100%? Like, do you have, you know, build better relationships? Can you sell more? Sure, right. I think if your people have an emotional, real connection with somebody, they'll buy more. But you know, one of the really cool, unexamined reasons for why I think authenticity is so important is actually so that I can, you know, leave a legacy and leave something for my daughter. So I just want to encourage you all to think about authenticity as well as you move forward in whatever you're doing, whether it's your marketing, writing, business, whatever it is, to really embrace authenticity and then think about maybe your why behind it. Because thinking about that with my daughter just totally reaffirms everything I'm doing for me and really motivates me and wants me to just keep putting out as much content as I can. It's a hell of a why. It's a great why. It's a way better why than make lots of money, buy a house, get a Lambo, like all that shit, right? Like, that's not a great why, but like to leave like an amazing sort of legacy for my daughter and to. From a mindset perspective and sort of a wisdom perspective and all that. And hopefully I can do it in person. But again, even if I can't, you know, I just think that's really important and I know. Girlen, you asked why am I not afraid to die? I kind of want to answer that, but I also sort of want to leave it for that podcast to like tease it, kind of do an open loop on that. So when Intuitionology comes out, I'll, you know, I'll link to it and you can check out that episode. So with that being said, let's go into Q&As. So if you have a question, as we've been saying, put it in the Q and A's. And Ed Ray will be selecting people's questions and we'll, we'll work through them, talk about them together.

Beautiful. Alrighty. So we have a home run question already from the man, the myth, the legend, Peter Cemies. He asks, what are your best strategies for finding killer story ideas?

Nice. What's up, Peter? Hey man, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing?

Good. Good.

Yeah. I mean the question is a great question in itself, but obviously stories can outpull anything. So I'm wondering your thoughts on where you find good at store ideas, especially when the owner of the product, the offer doesn't have a good story. Yeah, that's a great question. So the biggest thing for me is it comes back to like research. One of the things for my RNBC kind of methodology, right. In the research module, I talk about ideas of like pre, like early solutions that maybe used to exist for the prospects pain point. So as we're looking to solve a prospect's pain point, we look at the people attempt to solve it. Pre1950, 1940, 1930. Right. And if we go back and look through the history of attempts to solve it, we can often find really interesting like stuff like so maybe there's something that was sort of suppressed or maybe there was like some group of scientists who worked really hard on this solution in like the early 1900s or the 1800s or maybe there's you know, that lost forgotten tribe that you know has been or whatever the issue is, doesn't exist. So looking back into history for historical attempts at solving it really it's a good way to get ideas for stories because then you can tell this story and then tie it into like the modern day solution that you're providing. So that's a really good one. Same thing with kind of conspiratorial stuff. If you look at cover ups and then the biggest advice I give is to just not be afraid to go down rabbit holes when you find interesting stuff. So if you're on like Wikipedia or a website and a random name gets referenced or something, a word is mentioned related to it that you don't understand or you're not sure what it is, like taking the time to kind of Google it and research it and go down a rabbit hole on it has for me led to some of the best stories that I've ever written. So that's my primary advice. Does that help?

Yeah, yeah, helps a lot. Is there a way to stimulate more emotion?

Let's say the story is very scientific or whatever. Like have you found any kind of go to resources or stuff like that? Yeah, I find that typically like with. Well I think you can dramatize stories, right. So if you look at for people who are in RNBC applied and I broke down the Genesis offer that I that I wrote and talked about how like there, you know, it has these human trials. It was like a year long study and basically this ingredient helped to extend telomeres which can or a marker of longevity and all of that. But you know, super scientific. But the way I shared it, it's like you know, these scientists together in a lab, like they get the first results back and there's like bated breath and you know, like was it all for vain? Is all of their work been, you know, for not. And then suddenly it erupts in cheers and hugs because they're seeing these results and like, you know, I paint this whole picture of these like desperate scientists like working around the clock of a singular mission. And it's like so part of it is our job as a copywriter to just really dramatize it, which you can do. And if you do that, like when I read that Genesis thing, even though I wrote it. It gives me kind of like goosebumps because I can feel myself there. I imagine like the mission control and like the spaceship just docked, if another ship or they just landed on the moon and everybody erupts and cheering and like, you think about that, like, you know, goosebumps. And your hair rises on your arm. If you're a guy or you're a woman with hairy arms, the hair rises on your arm. And so that alone, I think is really good. And then consistently relating to the back to the prospect. Can you imagine? Think about it. Maybe you've been struggling with this. Maybe you've been feeling frustrated. Well, as you can see, once this happened, do you see what the implications are? So just checking in with the reader regularly or the viewer and then kind of reminding them of their emotional state, that's another thing that's really helpful too. Okay, cool. Thank you, Steven. Yeah, my pleasure, man. Sweet. Ed. Oh, hey, by the way, I want to do a quick shout out. I should have done this at the beginning, but you guys and girls don't know. Ed Ray launched his email list very recently. Came came out firing, I think, how many people you launch of? Like 300, 400 people?

I just hit 370 this morning.

Yeah, sick for just launching it like a couple days ago. Yeah. So. Well, I'll make sure we put a link to it in like the replay we put on YouTube. If you want to put a link in the chat for, for zoom here, feel free to as well, Ed. But you know, Ed's a killer and an amazing email list. So stoked that he, you know, that he did it. And everyone, everybody on earth should be on Ed Ray's email list.

So sorry, I was wrong. We're down to three. We're up to 390.

Look at you. You hit 400 today. After this. After today. Let's get that. Let's get that. There we go. Peter, Peter, coming in hot in the Zoom chat. So I appreciate it. Yeah, make a help. Let's help Ed ray get to 400. Let's do it. Sweet. Ed, let's do another. Another question.

Take a look.

John Capri said he's gonna swipe your emotes, but in a classy way.

Good luck, dude. Compliance is a bitch. So Nikhil asks, I know people in the Copy Accelerator have transitioned from affiliate to offer owner successfully. Tom Merritt, for example. What would you say are the keys to successfully make this transition? It's a good question. I'm actually curious to know too.

Yeah, that's a Good question. What's up, Nikhil? How are you? What's happening, guys? Thanks for taking my question 100%. Yes. Are you an affiliate right now? Yeah, affiliate right now.

Focused on working with dfo. Giddy up.

And in the background, I've been building my offer. So, yeah, really interesting.

I know that Tom is in the.

Health space and he has kind of made that transition. So, yeah, we'd love to kind of get you guys advice and guidance on how, you know, what the, you know, what are some of the keys to success?

Going from affiliate mindset to actually building an offer and going down that path.

Awesome. And as an affiliate right now, are you doing, like, media buying on, like, Facebook and native, or is it mostly email? What's the sort of traffic source primarily?

So my traffic sources, it's actually pretty interesting.

I'm focused on two traffic sources. It's Facebook and Snapchat. Nice. Those are like the two. So other traffic sources actually pretty polar opposites. Facebook and Snapchat. Yeah. That's cool, though. That's awesome. Yeah. So as far as transition, I mean, you have a huge advantage because, like, one of the biggest issues offer owners run into is traffic problems. Like, yeah, you can just work with affiliates and that's great. But if you're able to, you know, run your own media and acquire customers and buyers and do that and saying you can control and you can control the cost per acquisition or cpa, you know that that's a huge leg up. So really the big thing that I learned, because I went from copywriter to offer owner in 2015, and the big thing I kind of learned is, well, there is a learning curve, right? Because, like, there's just a bunch of the little intangibles that nobody tells you about that can trip you up. So do you know what kind of offer do you want to run? Are you thinking like a health offer? Are you thinking like gadgets and like, you know, gizmos or what are you thinking? So it will be an offer in the pet care space. Pet supplement space. Cool. Nice. Good space for sure. Yeah. It's like I get a couple of things I'd say, I mean, don't try and reinvent the wheel. Like, look at what's already working to model off of that. So, like, you know, just like, you might see ads that are working and swipe those. Like, you can do the same thing with successful offers. You know, you don't need to, like, go out and we don't, like, just copy somebody's stuff. But, like, you know, I Think a lot of times people go into like offer ownership and they think they need to like, kind of, you know, do something wildly creative and like you don't necessarily. So I think that's one important thing. Then you know, there's just the intangible stuff. Like the big things you're gonna run into is like inventory and inventory management and like, are you going to, you know, if you're paying for inventory up front, how much do you need to buy? And then are they gonna, if you not over scaling. Because if you scale too fast and you run out of inventory and then you can't like, you know, you aren't able to fulfill people's orders and you have to refund them. Customer service is extremely important. That's like the first thing I did with my health supplement company was I hired a programmer first, but then the second person I hired was a customer service manager and I had the customer service manager hire customer service agents. Because if you have great communication with your customers, like you'll just generally they'll forgive you for a lot of your sins. So if it takes, you know, and a few extra days for an order to arrive or it gets damaged in shipping or whatever it is, like by having really responsive, supportive customer service, you'll make more money, you'll make more sales, but you'll also save yourself on refunds and chargebacks and things like that. So putting an emphasis on customer service from day one, I think is really important. Merchant processing is really important. You can, depending on how your copy is and what kind of claims you're making, things like that, you can, you know, maybe you can use Stripe, but what you, you generally should have a couple of different merchant processing options. Otherwise you run the risk of, you know, you're running and you're doing well and you're on Stripe and you're doing 100,000amonth or a million a month or whatever it is, and you're feeling really good about it. And then Stripe comes out and says, oh, you know what, we don't want to do pet supplements anymore so we're actually going to stop. And suddenly you just lost all of your processing abilities. Or they say, well, you know what, you're new and we're not sure about you and you have some chargebacks so we're going to put a 60 day hold on your money. So suddenly you can't scale and you've got six figures locked up. That happened to me early on. I tried using Stripe for my first health supplement company and they locked up $140,000 or $200,000 for like it was like six months or something like that and almost put me underwrite then and there. So. So ideally having some merchant processing options, I think stripe could be fine but I would still have a backup. I personally work with the folks at Cambridge Commerce a lot. Travis Gomez and Coleman. Yeah, Justin Lucas at heart, Cambridge. I've had great experience with them. I'm actually getting some new mids with them right now because of some of the stuff I'm doing. This is the big ones. Your email list. Monetize your email data. Don't like sit around thinking about that you're gonna get to it and not get to it. Like build a relationship with your email list in my opinion is like actually provide a lot of value to them but then sell too. Don't be afraid to sell. I'd email every day. You can email more than once a day. I used to have like, you know I had like a three month long autoresponder sequence that I just wrote over time and but then I still. And I'd have some of those would have sales to other offers in them but then I would still send out blasts like separately. So like I would just send two emails. Right. So a lot of this stuff. Oh, and then financials like the numbers like understanding the difference between revenue and profit. I mean you're an affiliate so I know you do, but that one's huge. People look at numbers. Like I remember when I did a million dollars in revenue and I was like wow. And then I was like but I lost 200,000 and it was like wow, I need to get a job probably like you know, so revenue is not, you know, is a BS vanity metric. Um, it's about profitability and finally just optimizing your offers too. I mean like, like from, from all kinds of. Not just from like conversions in that standpoint but even for profitability. Like my health supplement company that did 23 million in the second year. It sounds awesome but our AOV was like our average order value was like 140 for a lot of that. Whereas now most of my offers have a 200 $250 average order value. So it's like if I had actually just had better average order value, not only would have I made, I would have profited millions of dollars more. And then my cool vanity metric would have been 40 or 50 million instead of less. So those are some really big things that come to mind right out the gate. Are those helpful? Yeah, those are super helpful. Do you mind if I ask one more question. Yeah, go for it. So I know that with your health supplement company, like, how did you think about formulations, right? Because I know that a lot of guys in the supplement space, they're using stock formulation. So I go to, you know, Ion Labs and, you know, I could either use their stock formulation, right. Or I can spend, you know, a few thousand dollars, not really too much money, developing a custom formulation and kind of have that confidence that this is a superior product. So how would you know, how did you think about, like using a stock formulation versus a custom formulation? Because in kind of my kind of limited experience, like the product or the offer kind of dictates what you can, how far you can go with the copy and the claims you can make.

So I'm really curious to hear how.

You thought about that. Yeah. So out of the gate for my first company, I used to custom formulations. But then as I started scaling, it became, you know, I'm putting, I was putting in like 100, $150,000, like purchase orders. And that ate up all my cash flow, right. And made it difficult to do more stuff. So then I found out that like, ship offers had a really similar formulation that was on demand for one of my products. And I'm like, oh, so I can just do that. So I switched to on demand for some stuff. But then I also, once I had a track record with the on demand formulations, then I would go to the same suppliers and be like, hey, look, you see my volume I'm doing. You don't want to lose me as a customer. So I want you to just like, do this custom formulation for me on demand. And I found another manufacturer who would do that. And I said, they're going to do it for me on demand. I'm not going to pay up front. So I'm totally. I love you guys, but I'm going to go with them unless you'll also go on demand. So once you get a little leverage, you can then switch and get custom formulations done for you on demand and only pay when you sell it for a lot of the suppliers. So if it were me today, I would probably. It always depends on the financial situation. If you're just sitting there and you've got like, you know, a couple hundred grand just in the bank and you don't know what to do with it, then sure, go custom to start. But generally I would say going on demand early while you build a track record and it enables you to test and kind of see, make sure things are Working and with less of an investment up front. And then if things are working at that point, you can either. Well, you can switch to a custom formulation no matter what, but you can also even take your track record and what you're doing and use that to negotiate getting custom formulations done for you on demand so you still don't have to come out of pocket up front, and the manufacturer, supplier is still assuming all of the risk. Yeah, that. That's super, super helpful. It's been something I've been spending a lot of time thinking about. Thank you, Stephen.

Really, really appreciate it.

Yeah, my pleasure, man. Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet.

Next up, we have a question from Kimmy. Kimmy asks, how do you know what FAQs to address after the sales letter?

Kimmy Jew. What's up, Stefan? What's up? Thank you. Thank you for answering questions. Of course. Yeah, go ahead. Like, for the FAQs, how do you know what questions to ask? Like, how to address their skepticism? Yeah. So typically, what I'm mostly doing is I'm reminding them of the big points. I mean, the big. The big things like, that they're wondering. I can't address every piece of skepticism they have. But what I'm really trying to do is what are the big things that they really need to know in order to buy and to feel comfortable buying. Right. So it's kind of like reminding them of, you know, I use a unique mechanism of a problem, a solution. So it's kind of like. And it's usually like a named thing. Like, so, you know, what is XYZ mechanism again? And why is this actually responsible for my problems? You're causing my problems. And, like, kind of explaining that. And, you know, how does product solve it? And so which is basically explaining the unique mechanism of solutions. I'm kind of reminding them of those two things because that's really important, you know, and sort of, what do I get when I actually buy again? Because I want them to really feel clear about what I. You know, what I get, you know, questions about, like, what I don't actually do, especially on the health side. I see writers come in and do FAQs that are like, you know, like, will this work for me? And then they answer, and they're like, yeah, like, it's gonna work instantly, no matter what. And it's like, I'm not trying to make that claim. Like, I don't want to say that. Like, you know, like, I mean, if I'm only selling good products. But I don't think you need to tell Them that like, you know, it's not worth it because if it doesn't work, then they're pissed off and gonna get a refund. From like a compliance standpoint, regulatory standpoint. I'm not trying to sit there and say I have some magic bullet, but still kind of answering stuff about when will I get my package? What if I don't? What if I change my mind? Or is there a guarantee? I say that because I want them to think about changing their mind. But is there a guarantee how to buy? So it's really just the main basic stuff that people are asking. But then, yeah, also to what I think it was Rachel said it because I saw Marcus doing. Yeah, perfect Rachel spiel. What's up Rachel spiel, By the way, another great copywriter. But what Rachel said is like also just take your competitors products and generally swipe what they're doing. And one last thing you can do super good, not everybody does this is go to Amazon, look at your like competitors products or similar products. And they have the FAQs there. They have the questions that people are asking. And you can see how many people found the questions and answers useful. So if you go there, you'll see what the most common questions are that real consumers are asking about products that are similar to yours. So Amazon's a really good place to kind of figure out things. You can then put in your FAQ as well. Got it.

Thank you so much.

That's super helpful.

So it's about like reminding them and.

Then reminding what they'll get and then like reminding them why this will work.

Like the unique mechanism.

Then also looking on Amazon and seeing like the common asked questions. Yeah, 100%, that's exactly right. Gotcha. Okay. Thank you. You are welcome. Thanks for calling in, Kimmy. Thanks. Yeah.

Sweet. All right, next up we have Girlene. So girl says she won't be able to talk to respond to this one, but her question is how do you learn all the other stuff that naturally comes with copywriting? Basically the business side of things and how certain businesses run. What's the best way to run a product? Anything and everything, really. Did you learn as you worked with more clients and just pick things up, take courses? Yeah, that's your question.

Okay, so I'm gonna look at it again here too. So all stuff naturally comes with copywriting, the business side of things, how businesses run. Yeah. The best thing you can do, Girling, totally imagining your voice, like I can hear it crystal clear like a loudspeaker through my earlobe. Soothing voice. Yeah, like soft jazz just playing into piping into my ears. But yeah, I think the short answer is you have to learn a lot of this stuff from experience also. Mentorship helps on the experience side though. That's one of the reasons I personally tell copywriters when they're just kind of starting out and early on, and I would give the same advice to any freelancer almost is like, don't. I don't like niching down. Early on I think niching down is bad advice. I think early on it's like, think about college. I mean, you can say that college is good or bad, useful or not useful, whatever. But the way the college format works is you're supposed to take like a liberal arts education, right? For the first year or two, you're supposed to take all kinds of classes and be exposed to all kinds of stuff and then you sort of figure out what you like and you sort of concentrate and then you major. So it's like going for college. It's stupid that you're supposed to have like a major when you're like a freshman because you're like, I don't know. That's the whole point is to be exposed to stuff and then figure out what you actually want to be studying. And I think it's the same thing as a freelancer and a copywriter. You want to be exposed to a bunch of different industries and verticals and types of copy, et cetera. And one of the other advantages of doing that is as you work with more businesses and clients, you're generally going to see that you'll start to get a peek into the business model, especially once you get those good clients where it's more of a collaborative effort and less of a one off project. One off projects are great because you do it and then you're done and awesome. But when you can find a client who's going to use you for multiple things and gives you feedback and gives you numbers and shares, what's happening, that's how you start to learn the ins and outs of the business. Because you can kind of see like when they tell you things you wouldn't have expected, you start to understand why a CPA cost per acquisition is important, why the AOV is important. You start to understand profitability, you start to understand how they're acquiring customers, all these sorts of things. You know, you kind of get that through experience. Now having mentors and mentorship can really help too, a lot. It can really accelerate your timeline, you know, and. But you have to be open to it the one challenge is, and I've made this mistake countless times myself, is even when you do have mentorship, you have to actually listen to mentors. And sometimes you will, and sometimes you're gonna say, well, I know what they're saying, but I don't agree. And it doesn't mean a mentor is always right. But I think sometimes there are mistakes we just have to make on our own. And no matter how many people will tell us something's a bad idea or not to do it, we are gonna be stubborn about it. The less often you can be stubborn about it, the better. But, you know, some of it, the learning is going to come from just making mistakes, which is one of the reasons why I love failure so much and why I love making mistakes and why I love screwing up is because every time I fail, it gets me closer to, you know, success. So Girling, does this. Does that help? I wait for yes. She said yes, But I imagined it in her smooth, buttery, girling voice, you know, so perfect. Ed, like. Like made a real. Like a smirk to that.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I winced. There's a difference between a wince and a wince.

Okay?

Not a smirk. It was a wince.

I'm just starting to think of adjectives that describe, like, soft jazz, you know, like that or jazz Courtney's voice, which is ironically, you know, like, his voice is smooth. Like, you know, like soft jazz, too.

Him is jazz, after all. I mean, makes sense.

Yeah. Jaz has got such a good. I missed him. You missed the Michael Ball and reference. Stefan. Damn it. Okay. By the way, too, for the Road to a billion, just so you all know, we'll be going live on itunes with, like, replays of this. So like full episodes, but also snippets of the episodes, like five to ten minute podcast episodes that will be going live, itunes, other places as well. I'm doing a contest right now where you can get giving away three copies of my RNBC methods course, which is 997. So to do that, you basically just need to join the waiting list, and then once you're on the waiting list, share then. And the reason why I explained in my first email, it's a marketing thing too, right? I mean, you should get on the waiting list regardless of whether you have RNBC or not, because you can always gift the course to people and all that kind of stuff. But beyond that, the goal is once it launches, I'm gonna tell you to go, you know, like, share with people and check it out. And we wanna get iTunes pumped and kind of like register on their algorithm and everything. So I'll put a link to that in the YouTube replay and I will probably link to it in the chat on Zoom in a second. But yeah, just be, be prepared and ready for that. With that being said, my wincing friend, Ed Ray. Who do we got next?

Next up we have Michael McGovern. Michael asks. Hey guys. Recently went full time as a freelancer and I've been having, I've been doing strictly project based work. I'm interested in setting up retainer deals, but I've heard some warnings about them. What are the pros and cons that I might not understand now? Thanks. Thanks for the insight. Thanks.

Nice. What's up, Michael? Hey guys. What's going on? How you doing? Good, how are you? Great, thank you. So cool. So you just went freelancing full time? Yeah. Awesome. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. What, what were you doing before? I was working at a small university as an admissions advisor, mostly helping international students. Cool. Awesome. And on the freelancing side, are you gonna do copy or something else? Yeah, so. So my escape plan for a while was a lead gen agency. But through that process I just met a lot of people and started offering.

To do a little some work for.

Free and then that, that rolled into paid, paid work and then just more organically started making a lot more money from copywriting and I really enjoy it. So made that transition from there. So yeah, it's mostly copywriting and I'm finding that just learning about lead gen and marketing and all that stuff has made it made it nice to kind of understand a little bit more and be able to do more value adds in my calls with people on like a consulting side of things as well. Sweet. Perfect. Makes sense. Well, yeah, to your question on retainer deals, I have nothing against retainer deals, especially early on, like when you're kind of starting out and moving into freelancing full time and it creates potentially steady consistent income. The big mistake I think a lot of freelancers make with retainer deals, especially kind of early on in their careers, is not having a really clearly defined scope. So you get hired and you say, you know, it's gonna be $2,000 a month or $5,000 a month or whatever it is. But it's sort of like an open check where then like whatever you're doing, it starts with like, you know, a few things, but then the business asks you to do some other stuff and you say yeah to it and then suddenly you're just sort of working all the time, you are overwhelmed and you quickly feel like you're actually getting underpaid for what you're delivering. Right. So the big thing for me is with retainer deals is, yeah, just having a really clearly defined scope of, like, you're paying me X amount per month. And here are the deliverables I'm giving you. I'm doing XYZ because it sounds easy in practice, but in theory they're like, well, we have all kinds of copy needs. We need advertorial help, we need long form help, we add email help. So we kind of need a little bit of everything. So can we. But you know, you're like, that's great. But again, where's the cap on that? They ask you to do like a thousand things, right? Like, what do you. How do you cap that? You know, you could do it like hourly, be like, it's X amount of hours and be like, here's what I can reasonably expect to get done in that amount of hours. And so this is what you can expect from me. But, you know, if you give me one project that takes up, you know, 20 hours a week and that's the amount of hours I'm kind of allotting to you for this retainer deal, then, you know, understand I'm not gonna do other stuff you ask that week. It's just like, you know, it is what it is. But. So, yeah, that's my main stuff with retainer deals, though. Does that. Yes. Scope creep, as Marcus said here, the bana freelancers. But yeah, totally. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. So.

So on those initial proposals, if I'm. If I'm hearing you correctly, like, you.

Would either either set the expectation on a time basis or on a deliverables basis. Like a, like a. Like what, what you would like a cap on emails or a cap on long form stuff. Yeah. And I would prefer deliverables. And I would also look at it because you'll have clients who come in and again they. I think we talked about this, like, yeah, last episode a little bit. But they have all this stuff that they need help with and like, it's great. But kind of your job as their freelancer and on retainer is you're sort of a consultant as well. And so kind of your job is to help figure out what the biggest needle movers are and focus on that stuff too. So, you know, even if they have like 10 different things they want to get done, it's sort of like looking at it and being like, okay, totally get that. But really, like, here's what you need, like, in order to get to like, what's your, what's your most immediate goal? And then maybe that is to increase revenue or it's to acquire more customers or get more leads or whatever it is. And based on that, like, I know you'll do all this stuff, but this is what I think will actually move the needle for you and get you closest to that goal. So we're going to start there and like, that's what I'm going to do. And then, you know, next month, like, we can then move on to this or whatever. And so that's the way to help avoid the scope creep too, because you can acknowledge that they have lots of stuff that's needed, but you're still helping them to focus on what's actually going to move the needle the most for them in the shortest amount of time. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. No, yeah, this is great. I know it can work and it sounds like it's seducing me, but I think part of like my animal, like, gut instinct of like finally being free of a job was like, no, I don't want to. I don't want to be, you know, like, you know, agree myself back into another job, like, scenario. So, yeah, and I think you should be aware of that. But again, I think if you keep the scope, you know, limited, then it can be great, right? Like if you're on a retainer, you know, we have freelancers and copy accelerator and other places who the retainer is, right? Like 10 emails a week and they'll get paid, you know, whatever, like a thousand bucks or 2000 bucks or so it's like, then, okay, you're making 4000 bucks a month or 8000 bucks a month. And you know, if you can write an email in a half an hour, it's like you're actually, you know, it's like five hours a week. And that's amazing, right? And then you're not, like, you're not totally pigeonholed in, but if your retainer is, you know, 40 hours a week of writing copy for them for $5,000 a month, that's not really a retainer to your point. It's like, that's a job. Like, congratulations, you just got a new job that pays 5,000amonth, you know, kind of cool. But like, what about all the other stuff you want to do? And it may stunt your growth a bit too. So, yeah, I think your guts. Right. But again, I think just, just be in control. You know, you're the one in control as a kind of the consultant and sort of work out the retainer deals that really do match you and your goals and what you're trying to accomplish. Awesome, man. Yeah. Okay, great. Really?

Absolutely. I want to quickly chime in one little thing.

And I've been missing you, bro.

I've been missing you too, buddy.

So quiet.

So when it comes to setting retainers and working with clients, one of the most important things to think about is to set boundaries at the beginning. I know, Stephanie. Like, that's what you've been saying in, like, a nutshell. But, like, really phrasing it that way of setting boundaries, like, setting the expectations from the start, really being, like, upfront with them. About what? Like, what kind of work you want to put in. Because at the end of the day, the only person who's gonna make this retainer deal a job is you. Not that, because you're gonna allow them to scope creep. You're gonna allow them to push your boundaries. But if you set clear expectations and you set expectations of what you're gonna deliver, how they're gonna treat you, what your response time is gonna be, how many days of the week you're gonna work, getting their stuff done, that's not a job. It's ongoing work. You just have to take the responsibility of setting that boundary and expectation right off the bat. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of whatever the client wants.

Yeah, no, yeah, that's a great point. Awesome. Cool. Glad we could help, Michael. Yeah.

Thanks, guys.

Awesome. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Who we got next? Said Ray.

Who I have next? Okay, question here from Shaurya, the Indian copywriting legend. How does one get over the objection of why you over other more experienced copywriters on a sales call?

Nice. What's up, Sharia? How are you doing? Hey. Hey, Steven. Hey, Ed. Hey, everyone. Yeah, I'm doing good.

How about you?

Doing great, man. Glad to have you here all the way from. From beautiful India. Yeah. Okay, so just like any other day, I'm excited to be here. And, well, I haven't been on a sales call, but I have, like, this. Imagine I have, like, this situation in my head that I'm honest. I somehow get on a sales call with a dream client of mine, and I'm like, I'm crushing it, and they're already sold. But, like, at the very last moment, they asked me, why you other more experienced copywriters? And I don't know the answer to that. And I even don't know if that's ever gonna happen, but this is, like, really going in my. Like, continuously repeating itself in my head. So what are your thoughts on that? Cool. So I know Ed wants to answer it, and I'd love to have that answer it. So please, Ed, hop on in.

All right, so the really cool thing about copywriting compared to every other industry, and y' all are gonna hate me to say this, but it's so fucking easy to get clients, comparatively. All you have to do is write a few emails and send to your client, say, hey, run this email. If it makes you money, come back and we'll talk. So, sure. Yeah. If you're doing that and you're sending a prospective client three emails, whatever happens to be for them to test, then they've got results from your work. So they're not going to actually give a shit about your experience if you can get them results, that's all they care about. That's how I was making $4,500 a month when I was 17 in high school. I was charging 250 bucks an hour back then because I got people results. They don't care about experience. So that's only a mental problem in your head. That's not a problem in other people's minds. And it's only going to become a problem in real life if you have that problem in yourself, because sales is a reflection of. Of your internal belief system, and it's going to come out that way in your sales calls. So long story, short, value up front, get them results, and then they can't deny that doesn't matter what your experience is.

Yeah. Okay.

Thanks, Ed.

And, yeah, your emails are really great. Okay. So thank you. Awesome. Glad. Good. Good answer, Ed. Thanks for. Yeah, no, it's okay. That was a great answer. I mean, the only thing I would have added is, well, just generally confidence, too, right? The more confidence you have. I think people like that and just be like, if you. I posted in the Copy accelerator an email exchange I had with a client who hired me for, like, 45 grand through, like, basically five emails, but because I wanted them to see it, the members to see it. But what was funny? Everyone was like, oh, my God, that confidence. Like, you're just oozing confidence, like, dripping confidence. And it was like, I guess I am, but I do it really naturally now. But I'm not. I mean, I'm a pretty confident person now, but I'm not naturally, like, a super confident person. Like, I've talked about it before. I was a fat kid. When I was like little, I, you know, just had low self esteem. I like, I wouldn't take my shirt off at a swimming pool until I was in like my fucking 20s, you know, like I didn't have a ton of confidence. But you get confidence from over time, like having wins, having success. So I get, it doesn't come right away. But generally if you project confidence like to at this point about kind of your internal beliefs, right? When you project confidence out there and you really believe in it and believe in yourself and believe that you will do a better job, then it becomes easier. Like if I believe that even if I'm newer, if I've been studying copy or studying whatever craft I'm doing and I really think that, you know, I am the best and I know I care. Like I know I'm going to work my ass off on this. I'm going to tell them that it's like, look like I have a duty, right? It's the same thing with any great sales. If I know what I'm going to offer or do is going to really help somebody, then I have a duty to offer it to them. And if I don't, I'm doing them a disservice. And I'm also doing myself a disservice. And so I would bring that to them. I would be like, look, there's sure plenty of people are more experienced than I am, but I don't think anyone has the hunger that I have. I've been studying this stuff nonstop. I'm writing daily, I know your brand, I'm obsessed over it and I'm gonna obsess over giving you the best possible deliverable. And I'm not gonna stop until I provide that to you. And just like saying stuff like that I think can really, you know, help to just immediately assuage that concern. But to Ed's point, usually people aren't gonna even bring that up. Like I've never, I hire shit tons of people and I'm never like, there's more experienced people than you, like maybe you don't belong, right? That doesn't happen. It's like that's the total mindset. Like fuck on our own. And then our eternal belief system of not being good enough or not belonging or whatever it is, but nobody doesn't really happen in the real world. I mean, look, I'm not saying it would never happen, but maybe one out of every hundred times. So you know, you can worry and obsess over that or you can focus on the other 99 times where people are just like, okay, sounds good. You're hired. Where do I send the money? And that's a way more fun conversation to have. I'd rather focus on those 99 times than the one time that someone says something that. That stokes our insecurities and fears.

For sure.

Yeah, sure.

And how much confidence would you feel if you wrote a client three emails and that made them a thousand bucks per, like, let's say, made them 3k? You feel pretty good about yourself. You just made your clients some money they wouldn't have otherwise without you. That's confidence boosting. And then when you go, yeah, I charge a hundred bucks per email, they go, well, wow, though this one email made me a thousand bucks. Well, no problem. I'll pay you a hundred bucks all day, every day. That's confidence.

One of the biggest things in the freelancing course that I'm pointing out if Stanley. And we have the case studies from 15 people, including Kimmy do, who's on this call, and Girlien and a few other folks. So I had, like 120 case studies submitted, picked 15 of them, and then, like. But one really important thing that was a reoccurring theme for a lot of those case studies. We asked freelancers how they got their first client. And to share is the idea of getting your first win, getting that momentum. That's the thing. Because as soon as you start having wins, like, your confidence momentum builds up so much. So a lot of it is like, really, if you're really new to, like, freelancing or marketing and you're brand new, even one of the biggest things you can do is get a win. Just have somebody pay you for anything or have them give you results that show that what you did accomplish something. To Ed's point, right? Like, if you give someone something and it works just by doing that and getting that first win, it will build your momentum tremendously. And those wins have a compounding effect. They snowball and continue on. So with that being said, Ed, I know you're checking your phone. I forgive you, but thank you.

I was just making sure that the people on Facebook are getting attention too.

Appreciate that. I know. Sorry, Facebook people. I love you. I'm. I, you know, I'm on zoom. I can't multitask too much, but Ed, Razor. Look at you guys. Giving you love, too. We love you, Facebook community. Facebook.

I love you, Facebook. Yeah.

Love you, Facebook. Love you, Mark.

Yo. Actually, funny, funny thing. So in yesterday's email, I literally wrote this email. Today will be especially Helpful for you if you're currently getting cucked by Zuck. I thought that was pretty funny.

It's funny.

I'm gonna have so many freaking Zuck memes and stuff.

Oh man.

Okay, awesome. Good question here from Chris. Oh yeah. Chris asks, is there a limit to the number of bullets and fascinations you would use and is there an order of importance?

What's up, Chris?

Hi, Stefan. Hi. Hi guys.

Hey. So, yeah, good question. Are you. So you're thinking about from like in context of long form sales copy or shorter content or what kind of, kind of type of copy are you thinking about specifically with this question?

Sort of long form really? I mean, I didn't know there was like an overkill, a number you'd actually use. Obviously you've got the FAQs at the end as well, so. And I would assume that you are putting them in the order of priority as well.

Yeah, totally. So there's no like magic number. But for me, with, with fascinations or curiosity bullets and for anybody watching or listening who doesn't know what this is in reference to. So basically when you're writing copy and you're, you're teasing people and getting them to want either keep watching your video or keep reading or you're wanting them to buy a product and see what's inside, you know, we're talking about how to write these bullet points that are really curiosity driving. So for example, if it was a self defense offer, it might be like in the next five minutes I'm going to show you why the worst thing to do if you have a gun to your head is to reach for, is to try to strike the attacker. That's a shitty one. Honestly, I can do better than that. I want to do better, you know, like why, like, you know, survival stuff. It was like why you should never grill food during a crisis. Like just weird things like that that make you kind of like people interested. So to your question, Chris, I think in like the lead, which, if you put in the lead or the start of your sales copy, the goal there is just to have somebody want to keep engaging with the copy. And I talked about this on one of my RNBC applied, the one where I broke down my genesis offer an idea of like all of these, there's like their little extra hooks, like fishing lines and little hooks. So you have your big lead and your big idea, but if that doesn't resonate with somebody for some reason and they're still kind of like swimming down the current of your sales letter and then they See like a curiosity bullet about a different. With a different idea and another one and another one. It's like you're hoping that even if they went by your big giant meaty hook, they're still gonna see some of these little ones and nibble and then keep going. So in the lead, I like, you know, maybe two or three. There's totally overkill if you just do too many. And then as far as talking about the product and like, you know, inside the product, you'll discover the four magic words you can say to any woman that will have her wanting to date you. You know, even if you're one legged and smell like a hobo, like whatever. Right? Like, yeah, if you, if it's just a giant block of fascinations or curiosity bullets and there's no like kind of nothing breaking it up, then typically that's gonna. That can start to be overkill. I think if you have like, you know, five to 10 for each sort of section. If it's an info product and you want to do that for a handful of sections, I think that's fine. But I would be breaking them up and then, yeah, I would always be. I'd always just try and lead with my strongest. Ideally what you do is like you would write out like 100 or 200 fascinations or bullets and then go through and then pick your like 10 to 20 strongest and then those are the ones that you would use in the copy. So. So, you know, there's no magic answer to it, but that's generally how I think about it. I'm not sure if that's helpful or not.

Yeah, no, that's great. I love the idea about the analogy, the fishing hook. I like that idea. That's kind of visual way of kind of looking at it. That's great. I'm on Ed's list, by the way, so thank you for accepting me. That's great. And I'm trying to get onto the RNBC training as well. So I'm just waiting for a client to pay me so I can get on there. So. Yeah, loving this calls.

Awesome man. We really appreciate you hopping on and you had a lot of compliments to your accent on the call. Of course, to you it's not an accent at all. It's just the way you talk. But that being said, I was on.

A zoom call to GC last night and that's the first thing that my colleague said. And I was actually interviewed on a podcast a while ago from guys in San Francisco, David Garfinkel, who does A copywriting podcast and he interviewed me. I think it's coming out next week. It's quite an interesting angle to it because I've done a few different things in my life. But yeah, my accent seems to go down quite well as always.

It does. There's something about a British accent that I think people just like, really enjoy. You know what I mean?

We normally play the bad guys in films.

I don't. We. That's true, that's true. Well, you know, you guys are either the bumbling romantic lead who's like really nice and but, you know, kind of like not confident at all, or you're like ultra confident bad guys who are just, you know, absolutely like killers. There's really no in between, I feel.

No, I'll go with that though. That's cool.

Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Well, Chris, thanks for your question, man.

Alright, cheers, guys. Thank you. So there's a question for me and I don't think I need to unmute the person unless they want me to. Ryan asked Ed, any chance you'll be making a book soon on Facebook compliance? For those who don't know, Facebook compliance is basically just being Facebook friendly, which is what I call it now. I'm not planning on making a book. I'm not planning on like doing a really like, public course. I am thinking about doing like a very high ticket interactive program where I'd kind of like teach you everything I know and then I work with you to get your stuff Facebook friendly and running as fast as possible. But it wouldn't be like a book. Like it would be at least probably 5k.

But Ed also has three different people who want to publish him if he does a course on compliance.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

Including myself, who's starting a publishing company and I'm friends with the other two people. And I've said that, you know, two people are great, but obviously they're not gonna be as good as me. So if I does do a course, he's gonna do it with me. So you heard it here first.

Yeah, probably. But I do have a book coming out at some point, which, honestly, Stefan, I was just thinking like, I should fucking. I should publish with you for that too.

Yeah, you should. That's the whole point of the publishing company, is to publish my friends and to give people voices and then help them reach as many people as possible if they have something really valuable to share. And obviously I know you do.

Yeah. And then my book would be called, I think. I'm not sure about the name super yet. But I think it'd be called the Opportunity Switch, where I basically just teach how to create opportunities out of thin air. How to spot them, how to. So it's like how to see, create and attract opportunities. I have a whole methodology and framework I've used basically my whole life to get to where I am now. And I just want to teach that to people. I think it'd be cool. That's more like that.

I told you. Yeah, so if I told Ed. Well, I'm not gonna tell whatever I told him. I'll tell you guys in a little bit. Not to tease you, but I think that's a great book.

Let me go do that first, then we can tell you about it.

Yeah, once you do. I gave Ed some advice by sending it to him as a private message. But, you guys, it's not. It's kind of an open loop. I'll tell you what the advice was in a minute, but I think that name of that book is better than Cucks by Zucker Memoir. So, you know, that would have been a solid two, I think. But what are you going to do, Ed, as you're doing that? Let's go ahead and get to another question here if you want to hook it up.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Good call, by the way. Holy fuck, I'm Russian, dude. Okay, so Jaz Corten asks. I'm reading the Big Leap. Great book. Are there any other books that gave you more self awareness or a new lens to diagnose your problems through?

Great question. I love talking about books. What's up, Jaz? Yo, what's up, Stefan? How you doing?

Doing excellent.

So, yeah, I like to.

I always like to have as many.

Tools as I can to think. And after reading the Big Leap, like, that book is amazing. And now I can like diagnose more things. Like, okay, that's. That's like. What is the book call it that? That's the upper limit. That's the upper limit. And I can, I can see that. And it's like, I can see the matrix now. Any other things that you refer to all the time, like that, that you always go back to and you're like, okay, that's that, that's that. Like any books that really made a big difference for you that way? Yeah, this is a tough question because I love, you know, I love reading and all that. Like, I love reading books and learning from it. I'm trying to think, like, I'm trying to actually scroll through because I took a picture of my bookshelf to help trigger ideas. But since I have no idea if I have a picture or not handy, some things that really helped me. And there's a million good books and you'll see that when you people will probably put stuff in the chat here. For me personally, I got a lot of value from the 21 irrefutable laws of Leadership by John C. Maxwell. It's something where it can feel like platitudes. Maybe if you're not, you have to really think about it and be open to it. But I think the essentially, for me as a leader and realizing that there are these kind of walls of leadership that are really important and valuable and that if you can kind of get people's buy in and raise others up first and create your own inner circle, all these sorts of things, I think that book's really good if you plan on leading. If you're not gonna lead, maybe you don't need to read it. But if you do plan on leading, that one's really good. I really like Nassim Taleb, and so he's a little, you know, it's a little more intellectual and philosophical and all that. But I think his concepts, at least if you read part of some of his books like Antifragile and Skin in the Game, I think those are both really valuable books. The idea of skin in the game, really, all of his stuff is about asymmetry. And then Skin in the game is especially about asymmetrical risk and the idea of how, you know, doing things where your downside is really low, but your upside is really high. So there's asymmetry. It's not like for. If you take an action and both the downside and upside are equal, that's one thing. But if you take an action with like, say, a fairly small downside but a really large upside, then generally that's an action you should consider taking. And I think that's a really important concept. And the skin the game is also the idea that if you're gonna do anything, you need to have. You need to have a downside. You need to actually. You want a downside. You want to risk, like, being hurt. And if you don't do that, then you're generally not going to succeed or be happy. So the idea that you need to have skin in the game is really powerful and important to me. I feel like I had some others, but I'm going to probably say those are a couple to start with. I'm looking at again in the chat. There's a ton of Other people making some suggestions like Happiness Advantage. Oh, yeah, a couple others for me, I love Nassim Talib though, but like the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, and he has another one called Principle Centered Leadership. I think, you know, those books are a little bit kind of dated, but there's some really important stuff in there. So from Stephen Covey, what I get is the law of the harvest, which is that if you want to like, you know, have a bountiful harvest in the fall, you have to actually plant the seed in the spring. And this idea that little like personal and private victories precede public ones. So if you want to have like great victories and large scale public victories, it starts with you personally in these private victories. So even little things like making your bed when you wake up, brushing your teeth, you know, all that kind of stuff by these little habits snowball into bigger habits. So I know people talk about Atomic Habits, which is another book, but for me, the concept behind the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and the Law of the Harvest and Stephen Covey is really, really valuable. I think it's worth studying again, for a lot of these books, you don't have to necessarily read the whole thing, but I would at least go read like a summary of them and some of the big ideas behind them. And I think even that alone will help a lot. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Stefan. This is really good stuff. Cool. Absolutely. My pleasure. I see some, some people saying I should do an email about my favorite books. And I will totally do that. I'm just all over the place. So, like, I love, I read a lot of history, as some of you, you may know, and I think even history is really valuable for a lot of reasons. As a copywriter, you read bizarre. There's a lot of bizarre stuff in history, right? Like, a lot of weird things have happened throughout the centuries and the years. And like, you learn about weird movements and things and thoughts and all this kind of stuff. And like, as you do that, you get ideas for copying. I get ideas from history, but also just to understand the world better and to understand where we are today. It really helps if you look historically, it actually calms you down because you look at people talk about everything happening today. Like it's always the end times and unprecedented and no one's ever gone through this stuff. And then you read a history about World War II where like 40 million Europeans died, and you're like, oh, shit. I guess, I guess we've been through some stuff before and maybe this isn't the end of the world. Maybe it's just, you know, stuff that we're facing, or you read stuff about ancient Rome and, you know, plagues in ancient Greece. For me, like, history gives you such a better context and understanding of what it is to be human and to understand our society and where we are today that I'm just a big lover of history. So. By the way, what Ed was doing, after Ed mentioned the name of first book idea, I messaged him privately and I said, you need to go buy that domain right now. Which he went and did. Because I've had friends who do that. They share ideas and then they go to get their domain and it's gone. Like my friend Ben Marcoux. I always say Ben Marcou, but I think it's actually Marcou. He's a coaching client. He was at the copy accelerator event. Awesome dude, really smart. And he started a company called Lead Gen Ben, and he was talking about it at this restaurant in Austin before the Copy accelerator event in September of last year. We were being pretty loud in the restaurant, kind of obnoxious. And it was available like, that morning, and by the time he got home that night, it was gone. And we're pretty sure that somebody saying the restaurant just heard us talking and thought we were really annoying and went and bought the domain just to piss Ben off. But now he doesn't have the domain Lead Gen Ben anymore. Somebody just bought it from him because he talked too loudly at a restaurant. So, Ed, good job going and getting your domain name.

I'm glad you guys aren't a bunch of dicks.

Or they're slow.

Or they're slow. They're a dick.

You're a slow dick.

They're slow dicks. No one wants to be a slow dick.

No. Wants to be a slow dick. Awesome. And let's go. Let's answer some more, man. I'm having a blast.

Awesome. Mukhtar asked. Let's make sure he's online. Yeah. When you reach out to direct mail companies with your email creatives, should you keep sending more email creatives when they don't respond?

Good question. What's up, mukhtar? How are you? Hello. Hey, what's up? Hey, Stephanie.

I'm good.

How are you doing? Good, man. Thank you. So my question is just. So I've tried to reach out to a couple of direct mail companies, and, like, I don't. I'm not sure if, you know, it's like, I'm not sure if they, like, even interested in the emails I'm sending them. Because I'm not really getting any response, and I've been following up for some time. So should I just keep sending them more email credits for their sales letters or should I just, you know, move on to another. To another company? And when you say direct mail, I mean, are you talking people? Like, actual direct mail? Like, people are mailing out, like, newsletters and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of it might just be that, I mean, are they selling online? Do they have, like, funnels and sales letters and things online?

Yeah.

So I'm like, I'm on their email list.

I just, like, I just watch out.

For the product that they're promoting, and then I go to the sales letter and just write some email queries from there and send it to them. But do they have their own online product or are they just sort of. They're selling offline and then they have an email list where they're selling other people's offers as affiliates? No, no, they have to have. They have their own online.

Product company.

Like, each of them is like a supplement company. Okay. And they have their own sales funnel. And then when they promote to their list, are they promoting their own products or other people's products or Both? Both. Both. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it's not working, I would just sort of. It's kind of like a numbers game. I would keep. I would just kind of kind of move on. You know, there's people who. Some people are gonna respond, some aren't. You know, I mean, do you know if you're using the right email addresses and stuff like that? Like, you know, because it may be you're not emailing the right person about it. Sometimes they're just busy. I mean, you know, that guy, Real. I think it was Real is his name. He's in the Justin Stuff and Talk Copy group. Wanted to write an email for Paleo hacks. I helped copy chief it. I sent it to Ning, who's in Copy Starter, and like a friend, Ning didn't respond. Then I said to Dave Sinek, who's the owner of Paleo Hacks. Dave didn't respond. And that's like, they're in Copy Accelerator and, you know, like, really? I was surprised they didn't respond, but I was like, I guess they're just busy. But yeah, it doesn't mean that his creative wasn't good, but, like, it's just like he's got to go look for other people too. So. Yeah, for you, I just. I just keep fishing and, like, you know, it may take you a couple times. You have to cast your net several times before you catch a fish, but all it takes is that one. That one person that you catch.

All right. All right.

Well, that was very helpful. Thanks a lot. Cool. Yeah, Happy to help, man. Ed. Ray, let's keep it going, man. I think I feel like we're getting through some. We're getting through some questions today, and I'm enjoying that. We are.

We really are. You're doing a good job.

You're doing a good job. Ed, stop it. Burmance continues.

When did it end? My question from Ryan Skolnick says, Stefan, I have been trying for a few months to get started on upwork as a freelancer, but I'm struggling to get even my first customer. Any advice on upwork specifically for gaining traction? Should I switch over to my own website? My issue with this is that I'm fresh with in this business with no prior successes.

What's up, man? How are you? Hey, how are you doing, Stefan? Doing good, Ryan. Glad to have you on. Yeah, definitely. I've been watching them for a while now, so this is the first time I've actually gotten to get a question answered. I actually got two today, so it works out nice. Look at that. Did you look at a. Was it Lucas Mills who put that post in Justin and Stuff and Talk Copy where he shared how, like, he kind of was able to get clients on upwork? I'm not. Are you it. Are you in Justin and Stuff and Talk Copy? I don't think I am.

No.

I'm in the rmbc. Nice RNBC method. Not the review. Right. So if somebody wants to link to Justin. Stefan taught copy in the chat. I would say, like, yeah, like Luke Mills, like, who's just like a member of that group, did like a really nice case study about how he was able to perfect Santiago. Just link to it. Perfect. Like, I think that really helps. And then you. In the freelancing course that I have coming off Ian, like, we have the case studies on how people got their first client and includes a couple from upwork, but really what generally people were saying is it echoed what Luke said. And so I would go there and look at that as a resource. And then, yeah, I mean, I think upwork can really work, especially early on for getting clients, but it's probably just something in your approach, whether it's the COVID letter or some of the other stuff. So I would say that just start by looking at Luke's post. I know that's not a great answer, but it was just, I thought, because it reminded me of stuff I was doing early on because I started on Elance in 2012 or whatever. And basically what was cool for me to see is in 2020, like, kind of. I feel like the strategy, I was using the same strategies then that he's using today. And so it was nice to see that the same strategies have been working for a long time. So I think that's a really good place to stay. Start. Perfect. Cool. Thank you. Awesome. Happy to help. Ed. Who's. Who's next.

Question from Isaac. If you're offering an experience, what are the limits of compliance in terms of how you phrase your offer? In my case, since I want to present my book as not a commodity but an escape, that's what I intend to lean into to avoid the Red Ocean trap. But I'm also not sure how much can be promised. Interesting.

What's up, Isaac? Hey, Stefan. How are you doing? Good, man. How are you doing?

I'm doing better now that I got my question answered.

Great value as always, guys. Awesome. Really glad. Glad you're here and glad to have you back. Yeah. Can you give us a little more context on that question? Yeah.

So basically, like, the thing that I've.

Realized, because I have a novel already written and everything like that, and I want to release it independently, and I was thinking, well, how can I make this more than just a synopsis, Facebook ad or an entry on Amazon? Like, how can I turn it into, like, an offer or something that I can actually get people interested in? And so what that ultimately led me to was reading a book is more about the experience, at least when it comes to fiction, than just, like, learning something. And I haven't seen a lot of, like, fiction books take advantage of the whole sales funnel offer kind of idea. So basically I was trying to think, how can I build up the value of the experience in a genuine, meaningful way, but then also taking that over to, like, the Facebook side as well, not making it so ridiculous that I would eventually get, you know, penalized or whatever. I don't think I'll be able to spend enough money right now that I'll get right out kicked off. But, yeah, that's the idea. Yeah.

First thing that comes to mind to me is, is it who. Who does. Someone spoke a copy accelerator.

I connected. I connected Isaac with Jason Kutasi, and they did talk.

Okay. I was gonna say just model that. Like, it's just. Just find, like, what do people want?

Right.

It's like an experience. It's a movie like, you're not like, helping people lose fat. You're not helping people gain muscle. You're not helping people, like, make more money. So I don't think you have to worry too much about the whole compliance stuff.

Okay. I still, like. Yeah, I agree. I still like, I mean, doing like a book trailer. I think we talked about that previously when we discussed some of these calls, but because I think for this one, it's really just for marketing a book and a work of fiction, I really feel like it is the two things for it would be like, captivating their attention in their heart. Like, you know, kind of like getting them, you know, enthralled and feeling like they need to read the story. Like it's gonna be exhilarating and exciting and transporting them or whatever. I don't mean. I don't know. What's the. What's the genre of fiction again? I can't remember. So it's weird because it's, in a way, it's like young adult, but it's more like a young adult, like, setting because I've had people. I don't have a huge cultural following.

Of 16 year olds, so I have.

Had a few friends of mine from, like, my copywriting group who've read it. And I mean, they're young adults and they really enjoyed it. But I haven't had, like, teenagers read it. So it's kind of weird. It's almost like a nostalgia thing too. Is it like. Is it like sort of like coming of age though? Or like, sort of like, like, like Twilighty, you know, like kind of fantasy, like. Or is it just sort of like, you know, I guess. I guess in a nutshell. Like, what. What's it about? I guess in a nutshell. Yeah. Gotcha. To like, to be less synopsy with it and more just like punchy is imagine Harry Potter kind of starting halfway through, but the protagonist has more of an attitude and it's music instead of magic. So there is like magical realism aspect to it. But it is still very coming of age to it. Cool. Yeah. Based on that, I mean, I would probably. I just focus on creating an experience and a feeling. I think when people are looking at, like, you know, reading about the book, sort of like painting a picture of excitement and everything there and then I think the other thing is really like social proof. So I really like the idea of a book trailer still. And I think you could even over time, like, cut in, like people's testimonials. Like, even if you had people do, like, videos, like Right. Where they're like holding the book and they're like, I couldn't put this down. Like, oh my God, like when I got to page 30, my head exploded. And you had like a bunch of people who have read it holding the book and like sort of giving social proof about how amazing it is. So you could have that as its own sort of ad or kind of thing on your landing page that shows like almost like, you know, if you've seen Back in the day, before a movie, they would. Sometimes they'd have the previews where they'd have all the people in the theater being like, oh, it was so scary, or whatever it is. Right. And you could do the same thing in your trailer. And so I think like doing that and then you can have like a cool trailer. It can just be like B roll and like exciting music and like sort of like a voiceover and some text on the screen. And then if you want, you can even test a version where you're interspersing that with people kind of like doing testimonials holding the book, like user generated content. I think just doing that alone would really increase interest and probably help with conversions.

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of.

Sense because again, like, since it's their experience, it makes more sense to focus on other people who've experienced it rather than just me saying, oh, like this will do this, that or the other thing to have like that, like you said, kind of like that stitching together, like the testimonials. I actually had people who said they'd be willing to do a testimonial, so that's great. Awesome. Yeah, I would totally leverage that, like hardcore. Like, I think that'll help a lot. Yeah. Because it just seems like a lot of books, they just. I don't know, it just seems to do really boring, boring advertisements from what I've actually been targeted for. So I figured I'd bring that question up and I. Hopefully it'll help other people too, who might not think of an offer or whatever they've thought about as being something that they can really like, spice up or whatever. Because just because it's new, I mean, maybe it's a huge opportunity that people just haven't tapped yet. Yeah, 100%. And I mean, I think that's what gets notices and people do creative or disruptive approaches. You know, we tend to just like everyone kind of follows the status quo and then somebody comes and does something that is sort of outside the box and it doesn't always work. But when it works It's a home run. I mean, you look at Dollar Shave Club and the Harmon Brothers and their videos and so obvious in hindsight, like, oh, they use humor to sell, like consumer products and it's like, duh. But like, no one else had the balls to do it and they did it and then helped launch all these billion dollar brands. And, you know, why couldn't that apply to, you know, selling a book as well? Maybe it's not humor. But the point is, yeah, out of the box stuff is always good. So I would play around and test some stuff. But I think, I think you're on the right track. Cool.

Awesome, guys.

Thanks so much for the help and all the value you guys give us in every show and, well, everything you put out. Yeah, absolutely, man. It's our pleasure. Thanks for calling in. Absolutely. Thanks again. Cool. Do you want to give a shout out to Magical Realism as well? Somebody else put that. It's legit. I would. I don't know if. Speaking of books, like Gabriel Garcia Marquez, like 100 Years of Solitude, one of my favorite books ever. Cry. I cry in like the first chapter, you know, when the guy discovers ice for the first time. If you haven't. Ryan, by far my favorite book. Love it. Ryan. We just became best friends. Rachel Spiel, too. Yeah, dude. When he died. Gabriel Garcia Marquez died a couple years ago. I was in Pensacola, Florida at the time and I remember seeing it on the front of the digital paper and I cried like a baby. I was so sad he died because, like, he like, impacted me so much with his books. They're just incredible. You want to look at good storytelling and capturing the human condition and emotion and beauty in your writing and just everything else doesn't get better than 100 Years of Solitude. So anyway, let's try and get one or two more questions in. Ed, I know you were trying to be better about our hard stop at 11:30 my time, but let's do it. Who do we got?

So Aldrin asks, in order to charge high ticket for your offers, you must first become a high ticket buyer yourself. What's your take on this?

What's up, Arjun Ajahn, can you. Hey guys. How are you? Yeah, good. How you doing?

I'm good, thank you. So my buddy in the Philippines are talking like yesterday about.

About this.

This topic is that he's asking me why do I keep on investing on courses and things like that. And I told him that if you want to charge this money, you have to buy into these courses first. So I'm just Wondering if what's your take on this?

Yeah, actually I agree. I think you're right. You know, I nobody like going back to authenticity if you're going to try and sell a bunch of high ticket stuff. But like you don't, you know, if you can't afford high ticket stuff and you're selling high ticket stuff, I generally don't like that. I think it's like better to work your way to where you've earned the right to charge a higher amount of. So I think that's part of it. I think that you know, as you buy high ticket courses and you see what's in them and you kind of get a good feel for what is working, what's not working, what's good, what's bad, that that is also really helpful. And then I think it helps to level you up as well to where you're really ready to do it. I think about, you know, my mastermind, Copy Accelerator, which is a very successful mastermind. But you know, I joined Ed o' Keeffe's mastermind. This guy Randy Davis had a mastermind. I'm in Neil Patel's mastermind. I'm in the hundred million mastermind. I'm. I don't even know. Oh, I was in like the Legends mastermind for a while. I was in War Room for a year. Even though I never went. But like, the point is like I've joined, I mean I've spent you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on masterminds. I mean, fucking Joel Marion's is 100,000 a year. So I've spent probably like 300, 400, $500,000 on masterminds in the last couple years. And I think that's something that helps me to then run a mastermind that does. I don't know what we do in copy accelerator. 3, 4 million a year, but pretty high margin. But like, I think the reason I'm able to and even like the first event I did, the first live event I did in 2018, early 2018, for my copy intensive and people were just blown away. They were like, wow, we didn't expect that this event was going to be like so good. The production value, the setting and I really got because I just took all the things I liked from Ed o' Keeffe's mastermind and all the things I maybe wasn't as in love with and not just his, but some other people's and I took that stuff. And then I think having the experience, I knew what a mastermind was supposed to look like, so even when I live event, high end live event was supposed to look like. So when I did my high end live event, I kind of was able to capture and it wasn't very hard. If you try to do like a high ticket course, but you don't know what a high ticket course really looks like and you haven't really experienced it, I think you're gonna have a lot more of a difficult time than if you've actually gone through high ticket courses or trainings or whatever and you really know the good and the bad. So. Yeah, I totally agree with you, Aldrin.

Excellent, Stefan.

Thank you. Awesome. My pleasure, Ed. More. Give me more.

Okay, okay, okay. Lutfi asks what NLP models and principles can we apply to copywriting?

What's up, Lutfi? How are you? Hey. Hi.

Can you hear me?

I can hear you. Yeah.

So, hi, Stefan. I'm just wondering, since you like talk about open loops and future pacing. I know there are other NLP models.

Like framing and stuff like that. I'm just wondering what other principles can.

Be used for nlp for copy.

Cool. Good question. For those of you. Yep, perfect. Ryan did the definition in the chat. If you don't know what NLP is, it's neuro linguistic programming. There are writers who are super hardcore about nlp. I'm not one of them. The stuff I do that is potentially, I guess, aligned with nlp, there's subtle things I'll try to do. Like, you'll notice that I say now now a lot when I'm writing copy and sentences. And I'd be like, now if you're wondering why this and now blah, blah, blah. And like, yes, that's true. Yes, I'll say stuff like now and yes a lot in my copy because like, when it comes time, I want them to be thinking about now and like urgency early on. So I'm kind of embedding that thought in their mind and I'm saying yes a bunch, like, so that they're used to saying yes and nodding their head. I don't know if this is NLP or not, but like, there's a whole sensory side of it where when I'm really writing good copy, I'll try to appeal to a bunch of their sentences so not just their like in the language, right? You're like, look, like, here's the thing, you, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they can't you just see it now? Like, imagine it's a cool, crisp morning and you smell the fresh mountain air as you blah, blah, Blah. Like, you know what? If you could hear. You heard. You could hear your friends talking and they were saying, so trying to engage all their different senses. So words like now. Yes. The kind of engaging the senses and then future pacing as well, like putting them into that future state. Those are my big things there. I honestly, I'm sure I could probably add more NLP stuff in and maybe, you know, improve conversions more. I know some people are really passionate about it, but that's about the extent of what I personally do with it.

Okay, cool. Thanks.

Yeah, happy to help. Ed, come on. I think we can, we can do one more. Like, we're killing it with these questions today, dude.

I know. We're doing so. Good question here from Sean Caesar is exploiting the COVID 19. The COVID 19 crisis in my copy. Good.

Fortunately, I'm a ethicist and a, you know, a philosophy major, so I can totally help you with this.

Happy to be here again. Thank you.

Yeah. Glad to have you here, man. So, yeah. You wanna give a little context?

Yeah, like, I was reading some copy and they were like talking about the recession, I think the recession of 2018, 2008.

Yeah.

And they were talking in this. Just mentioned the recession. And I thought, like, can I do the same thing with COVID and is.

It going to be good or I.

Should do this in the future after.

All of this is going to end? Well, I think after all this has ended. Yeah. I think there's nothing wrong with talking about COVID or talking about what's going on. I think, you know, where people. There's two sides to that. One is being careful of mentioning Covid and just like spam filters and places not wanting to show your. Your ads or your copy if you're not careful about that. But, you know, acknowledging what's going on I think makes, you know, it's smart. I don't, you know, I don't know what you're selling, but like, if you're doing biz op or even my freelancing course, I mean, like, when I do the cold traffic version, I'm totally gonna acknowledge what's going on and the fact that people are out of the job and there's never been a better time to kind of like, you know, develop your skills and start making money as a freelancer. It protects you from what's happening now and in the future too. So that's totally fine. Yeah, I mean, like this way, acknowledging.

Not to make it to fear or something, like, very negative, but just a, you know, a taste for the coffee.

Yeah, that's fine. I mean, people. You know, people get in trouble when they're, like, magical, you know, Covid cure. Like, if you say that, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. But. Yeah, and the other thing is to, like, what Luffy just said. You can't mention Covid in Facebook ad or YouTube copy won't be approved. Is that true, Ed? I know you generally have to be really careful talking about.

Don't even mention it, bro. Don't even mention it. Yeah, but on the sales page, it doesn't matter.

Like, it does if a Facebook ad goes to that sales page.

Sales pages.

Yeah, but if the Facebook ad goes to that sales page, and Facebook's gonna see where the ad goes and they're gonna crawl your page. So, like, it would still look at that too.

So even upsells.

Yeah. So if you're using Facebook traffic, I guess that's something to consider too. But it's a really hard rule. I mean, if I just seem to say, look, Covid is crazy, People are out of jobs. And, like, I know it's a hard time right now. You really think that Facebook would ban my, like, my ad if I'm on my landing page? Just said something like that about COVID Ed. It's probably a better rule of thumb, but it's not like a hard rule. It's like, you can't say Covid. It's just on Facebook.

Yeah.

No, on my landing page. If my ad goes to my landing page and my landing pages, literally just.

Saying you can't say it. Zero.

Literally cannot mention Covid.

No, there's. There's few things on Facebook that I'm like a hard no on. That's one of them. And these rules will never change or they are fixed for Facebook. It's hard to say that if they can or can never change because it's always changing. But as of right now, because it's one, calling out a disease. Two, it's very timely. And Facebook hates when you take a commercial profit from crisis social issues and world events. Like in, like, you know, issue the crisis. Yeah. And there's just. There's ways to bring it up without saying it directly.

Yeah, that for sure. I mean, that's what Ryan put in there. But like, these unprecedented times. Times like these times are uncertain, scary times. Can we say that, Ed?

No, I try to avoid that. From not a compliance perspective. Yes, compliance perspective, but from a marketing perspective. People have already heard all that shit before. I refer to when the world turned upside down when everyone got locked at home. Like, there's a lot of other creative ways you can address it without addressing it while being different.

Yeah, okay, so. But my point was more as an example though. But the point is you can, you can say like, refer to stuff like not yet. Every ad. There's that, that montage of COVID ads from big companies where it's like in times like these. Yeah. If you haven't seen that thing on YouTube, it's hilarious. It's kind of crazy. But. Okay, so we're gonna wrap up. I'm gonna rapid fire, like, couple of things. I'm just going to answer if I see anything in the chat here. Is that okay if it's like two to three more minutes or. I know you've three minutes.

I'll give you three minutes.

Okay, let me come in here. John kind of answered Emmanuel's question. Jack Barreira said, when did you first realize you wanted to evolve from copywriter to offer owner? What steps did you take and how would you recommend a novice copywriter follow a similar path? You know, Jack, I kind of broke that down in the beginning. I'm not sure if you're. You probably work since from 10:10am So I know that kind of gave you an answer when I was talking about like, sort of like transitioning from an affiliate to an offer owner. But, you know, I realized it for me as a copywriter when I was helping the Lions Publishing guys to scale to like 100 million in revenue in a single year. And even though I was making good money, there was just a cap on it. Like I couldn't get any equity, which I don't in hindsight equities. I did a YouTube video, if you haven't watched that, about why there's an equity trap. And I didn't really need equity, but I felt like my upside was still limited and I wanted to do something where I didn't have limited upside. And that was really the big impetus. And then I felt like I knew the market really well because I knew like kind of the 50 plus conservative demographic market. And so I felt as though I would have an easy time doing a transition. They were doing info products, including a lot of health info products. I knew if I did supplements, it should be the same thing. That really helped me to transition. Brent said, I'm about to launch my first long form sales letter to Nutra supplement. How do you judge whether a letter is working or not? And if not, do you rewrite the entire thing or start for certain piece? Brent? Yeah. That's a tough one. But I mean, honestly, it's like, what are you. Are you getting an roi? And if you're, if you're sending your own traffic to it, are you, you know, getting. Are you break even? Are you a little below break even? You know, if you're, if you're like, say you spend $1,000 and get back $600, and that's actually probably pretty encouraging. And it means you may need to optimize a little more. And if I were going to do that, I would focus on the headline, the lead sort of stuff at the beginning, because that's usually going to get you the biggest boost if you send, you know, $1,000 of good traffic to it and nobody buys. And that's probably a sign that the offer is in trouble and needs to, you know, kind of be reworked here. Let's see. Kimmy, I'm gonna skip yours because I gave you. I did answer one of yours live. Sean as well. Noah said, have you ever written copy for the real estate market? I really like that niche, but don't know where to start, really. Marcus provided some info on that one. Perfect. Zoe said, what's your advice on getting new emotional response marketing ideas, especially about yourself? I shared in one of the Road to Billion episodes how I create like a. Like a spreadsheet. And I have categories, like personal stories, discoveries, times in my life where I had a big realization, times where I failed, times where I had wins. So I have, like, these sort of columns. I have a header, and I go through and I just dump out all of my ideas or all these life experiences, and I can take those and then write to them. So if you haven't done that, you should totally try that out. I honestly just am able to. I don't look at it that often, but it's comforting knowing I have it. Mukhtar already answered one of yours, so I'm going to skip that. Federico, yours is probably too long. And then Rich Michie, who I love. I'm not sure if he's still on the call or not, but he said, basically, when you're charging $50,000 fee, how do you want it paid to you? FedEx cashier's check? Wire funds directly your checking account? Yeah. Generally rich. I prefer funds getting wired directly to my checking account. So if you want to shoot me over 50 grand, I can get you that wire info. Just kidding. Every time I see Richard Mache get so happy, you guys have got to look into him. He's the world's most Interesting, man. I swear to God. Great storyteller as well. And okay with that, Ed. I kept it under three minutes. I'm sorry. I know there's a couple more I didn't get to them, but, you know, thanks, Rich. Appreciate it, man. I love you guys. Thank you all so much for attending, as always. We'll get the replay on YouTube, but we will also be launching this as a podcast on itunes starting on the 27th, which is a Monday. If you're not on the waiting list for that, please get on the waiting list. I've mentioned it in my email list as well as on justin7 talk copy. Make sure you join Ed Ray's list as well. Ed's put the link in several times. We'll make sure we link to it in the description on YouTube. Ed, is there a good domain, an easy domain for it, or is it something that really they need to see? Okay.

No, there's no domain for it. I should probably do that, though.

Yeah, you should. But for now, any last words to our. To our people?

Don't forget to be a slow dick.

That's great. Great. I'm glad that that's how we're gonna end this.

Just kidding. No, you guys are amazing. Experience or not experience, doesn't matter, you know, just shoot for the stars. Worst comes worse, you'll land among the moon.

So there you go.

Or whatever the saying is.

Better. Better than being a slow dick. So we'll take that. But yeah. Thank you all so much. Really appreciate it. We'll see you next week. Every Thursday, 10am if you're listening to this, you know, make sure you subscribe, share, comment, all that stuff. Please engage with me and love you guys. Thank you.