World's Best Marketers Drink White Claws and Talk Entrepreneurship, Mindset, and Scaling Businesses

Hi, this is the Road to a Billion podcast and I'm Stefan Georgi. Since 2011, I've sold over $700 million worth of products from both clients and through my own companies. I've also founded or co founded eight different businesses that have each grossed between seven figures and nine figures in revenue, including five businesses right now that are each doing at least seven figures in revenue per year. And combined they did over 10 million in revenue in 2019. On this podcast I share the specific tools, strategies and mindset hacks that have allowed me to achieve success as an entreprene copywriter, business leader, husband and father. Let's jump on in. Hey, it is Stefan Georgi here and this is just a quick preface to the conversation that you're about to listen to. So that conversation was recorded the evening of March 16, 2020 at the Airbnb that Laura and I have been renting for the month in Leucadia, which is in North County San Diego, kind of near Encinitas, maybe 10, 15 minutes north of Del Mar, if you know where that is. And it's with Laura, myself, Amber Spears and Jimmy Parent. And it's a really cool, long, far reaching conversation. If you don't know Amber, she runs the Mimosa Mastermind, which is a get together a couple times a year of a bunch of the best minds and people in the world of direct response and E commerce and different things like that. She's also one of the foremost experts on affiliate marketing on the planet. She has an agency that helps companies with internal affiliate managers to train them and get them to just do better at their job. She can also help people to hire and train affiliate managers and help them to, yeah, just generate more sales. You know, she has some pretty high profile clients like ClickBank, Agora Financial and others. And she's just one of the most connected people in the entire industry. She knows everybody. She's amazing, an awesome leader, brilliant woman, a great friend. And so it was really a blast to have her with us last night. And then Jimmy Parent is one of the best copywriters out there. He is brilliant, so funny, really smart guy. He spent a good amount of time with Agora Financial, then he left to go work with Oren Clough, who has over a million copies of his books in print, including Flip the Script and Pitch Anything. So Jimmy's been with Orin for quite, I don't know, maybe six months or a year now. And then on top of that, Jimmy owns his own health offers, or not even health, but different, different offers. In different verticals and does a little bit of freelancing work for clients, but primarily is focused on his own projects and just a really, really bright copy mind. So Jimmy was in town for an event that Oren was doing. Amber lives in San Diego. Laura and I are kind of back and forth between San Diego right now. We've been here for the last couple of weeks, and we're here for the next couple of weeks as well, at least. And, you know, everyone came over. We were just. Had some California Pizza Kitchen, drink some White Claws, had a little tequila, and. And we just put the recorder on and recorded our conversation. And so it's a really cool conversation. It's not super forced or anything like that. It's really just us talking. Like we would be talking regardless of if the microphone was on or not. And we talk about everything from mental health to Add and Adderall to depression to drug addiction to our first sales jobs when we first discovered copywriting and online marketing. The feelings of making your first sale. We talk about Joe Polish, embarrassing stories, times, how our perception is different, how mindset is so vital to your success in life, and why mindset is really just more important and fundamental than even copywriting or anything else. Our thoughts on what we can be doing during times of uncertainty like this with the coronavirus being on everybody's minds, and a ton of other stuff that I'm not even thinking of at this moment because I've got my tequila and White Cola brain. I'm recording this the very next morning at 7:12am but it was just an awesome conversation, you know, And I'll try and do like a notes thing where I annotate where different topics come up throughout the conversation. But regardless, if you've got the time, you want to play this while you're driving around or doing whatever, I just highly recommend it. It's a really fun conversation, and I think there's a ton of value to be had there, so I hope you enjoy. So my name is Stefan Georgi. And I passed some White Claws from Tequila, and now I'm here just having a conversation. That's it. That's how you gonna do.

What's up, yo, it's me, Laura George. I've also had some White Claws, some tequila. Gonna crack open another bottle of tequila. I'm chilling with some of my favorite people in the world. Just put my daughter to bed, and we're gonna talk about some really important shit.

Yeah.

How do you follow that? I'm Amber Spears. I, too, have had White Paw and Tequila. And I'm hanging out with these brilliant people after having five delicious pieces of gluten free pizza. Super good, super full.

My name is Jimmy and I am about to go into a food coma. I'm enjoying some La Croix, which tastes exactly like you'd think it would.

Nothing.

And here we go.

So why are you sober? I've noticed you haven't been vibing with us.

Like, what is.

I'm sober because I grew up with parents who were addicted to drugs and alcoholics. And you know, luckily my dad, early on, when my dad and my mom split off When I was 4, he went cold turkey. Quit drinking, quit smoking. And you know, I grew up with a lot of friends, you know, from 13 years old, were stoned every day and you know, doing the trick of stealing their parents alcohol and refilling it with water. Throwing it back in the freezer.

Yeah.

You know, so I mean, I've had drinks before, but it was one of those where it just, you know, we talked about baggage earlier and it like just triggered all of these, you know, like, memories. I don't even have the memories of them, but the feelings that came with it that just like, I was like, absolutely can't do it.

It's like stuck in body and emotions. Yeah, I understand that.

Yeah, I used to do the water trick, but then my mom had like vodka in the freezer. So then I get froze and they came back from a trip. Yeah, my mom was like, the vodka's frozen. My dad was like that, no, you're an idiot. Your son's a piece of shit. You're an idiot. Like. And then they figured it out. Let his paw paw vodka. God, they just must have sold you really bad vodka. Yeah, didn't work.

Well, my friend, he actually got smart and started refilling it with rubbing alcohol.

Oh, God, is that smart? My parents will die of kidney failure. It's fine.

They're like, I'm fucked like two wheels away.

I really don't like vodka anymore. I guess I'm just really. I've outgrown it.

Yep.

Oh my God.

Is your dad still alive?

Yeah, he's still alive. Just retired actually. Or just about to retire.

Nice.

What did he do?

So my dad is. Was a CT tech in the hospital, which is how I got involved in the whole medical world I was in. I got my degree in radiation physics. I was a pre med student. I was working as an X ray tech and started going into that before I realized totally disenchanted with the medical system. So I would Talk to doctors and tell them, hey, I'm starting a family. At least trying to at the time, starting a family. If you were, you know, do you have kids? So I talked to 174 doctors. I have this journal where I just asked them 174 doctors. And the question most people ask, would he do it again? I said, I asked him a different question, you know, do you have kids? And all of them did. Would you tell one of your kids to go to medical school? 173 of them said, absolutely not. Absolutely not. You know, So I was like, well, that's great, because now I don't know what I'm supposed to be when I grow up. You know, I was like 24, 25 at the time. I'm 34 now.

What were the reasons? Just like the demand, like the workload, the sacrifice, or it's.

When you're a physician, you are married to the system. You're married to your patients. You follow them whether you like it or not, you know, from them walking into your house or, you know, into your office doors to the day that they die. You know, you follow them and you're attached to them and you're always on call, even when you're not on call, you know, and so it's like you're either going to be married to them or you're going to be married to your spouse. Many of them on second, third, divorce, fourth, fifth, marriage, you know, kids all over the place.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not what I wanted to sign up for, which is heartbreaking. And planning on being an interventional radiologist, you know, they clear, you know, 500, 700 a year doing really cool, nerdy, geeky, super cool stuff, you know.

Still doing super nerdy, geeky stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't know this world existed, though, you know, so.

Yeah.

How did you find out this world.

This turn agency, really just an interview with Jimmy, but at mka, how did you find out all the dark people just asking you questions. Our jaws are dropping now.

That's a really good question. So, you know, I recently discovered that I have ADD, which explains why I had 19 jobs slash careers up to this point of being, you know, a copywriter, slash whatever it is that we are, you know, and so I was a. I was a race car fabricator. I was a sheet metal fabricator. I was. What else did I do? I built roll cages for race cars, like Le Mans, Porsches, Astons and stuff like that. And then started my own fabrication shop. And when the economy crashed, you Know, there went my meager income with it. And then from there I got into, oh, that's when I went into the medical field because it's stable, stable income. Went to school for a few years, got my degree, started working as an X ray tech while doing school for pre med and got super bored super quick. You know, with each like job I would go in, get hyper obsessed, become better than everyone else in the job, get bored and I would either get. My performance would fall off because I'm like, there's nothing, I'm bouncing off a glass ceiling, you know. So then like my performance would fall off and I would either get fired or I would just quit or find a way to get myself fired, you know, self sabotage and go do something else. And started working in sales and found myself on the sales floor where I was doing phone sales. And I'm like, wow. You know, I thought that if I was good with people that meant I had a working customer service that was like my worldview, you know, either had to be a doctor or work in customer service.

That's really a big difference, by the way.

Yeah. Just funny how related, right? Related, but very different. And so then I stumbled into sales and I was like, oh, I didn't know there was. I always thought sales was, you know, used cars salesmen. And I'm like, I can't talk people into doing, making bad decisions. Like my, I just, in my conscience I can't do that, you know, until I found, oh wow, you can actually sell things that people need instead of selling them, you're just like coaching them through the process. Like instead of here's why you should buy this. It's like, you know, let me teach you how to buy this. Let me teach you how to solve this problem, you know, and it sounds like you're a great fit for what this is, you know. And so, you know, on the sales floor, for the short time that I worked on the sales floor, I was in the top, top three, sometimes top five salespeople on the floor. But I'd be only be on the phone 15 minutes a day. The number one guy was nine, 10 hours a day. The marketing director came out and said like, hey, I didn't know you were a copywriter. I was like, what do you mean? He says, well, you're closing all your deals through like text and email, right?

I was like, yeah.

He's like, well, that's a copywriter. I thought a copywriter was like this hipster guy in a coffee shop in Portland with a twirly mustache writing blog post. He says, yeah, that's also a copywriter, but there's direct response copy. And so I was like, oh, Google direct response copywriter. And it's like my world just exploded. So that was 2017, middle of 2017, I discovered copywriting. And by November, Joe Schreifer flew me out, and I was working for Agora Financial, you know, and then worked there for a couple years, and people would throw projects at me. And I was like, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. Until I actually finally said yes to one of them. And I looked at it, I was like, this copy is awful. Let me do some basic direct response. And they're like, my revenue tripled on that one offer. And I was like, yeah, I didn't, like, do anything, But I brought it up to where it was supposed to be from there, you know, I couldn't really make it work at Agora. I thought it was. To be fair, I thought it was. I love those guys. I love everyone that works there. I thought it was me not being able to write good enough copy. Well, that's where I discovered if your list is crap, nothing's gonna convert. You have to have a blockbuster breakthrough offer to make a dent in a garbage list, you know? And then also it's like, well, shooting down all of my ideas, normally letting some through. I thought that's because my ideas were bad. Well, then I would go outside and try an idea. My first. You know, it's like, I'm not even gonna brainstorm, right. Let's just try this. And it would work. I was like, oh, maybe it's not me. Yeah, you know, and then got bored and not bored, sick and tired of trying to fit through that system. Joe Schreifer told me, he says, hey, you're one of the only copywriters we have who also knows how to talk to humans in public. You know, I'm considering doing this whole new type of affiliate model, which did not work, did not happen at all. It was supposed to be doing a lot of what Fernando Cruz does, like going out and being the actual outdoor sale. I was like, great, I know how to do that. And as soon as I got shuffled into that position, it was like, great. We're going to do none of that. And then we're going to fit you into the existing affiliate model that we have. So I was sitting there in front of spreadsheets and stuff. I'm like, I'm going to kill myself. Like, this is not me. And then got hooked up with Oren Claff in October, November last year, he flew me out and said, let's do some things together. And being the ADD person I am, I said, hi, Gora, and just like, cut that off. So my poor wife, I don't know how she had that same. Several heart attacks at this point.

Micro heart attacks. She actually has.

Yeah, Just perpetual ischemic attacks. Yeah. Mini strokes and things like that.

Yeah.

So are you on medication now because you're adhd?

No, I can't find a good doctor.

I have a giant thing of Adderall, so. Pauses. Yeah.

Now, as a doctor, getting into a doctor is super, super tough. And then when I do get in there, they keep wanting to diagnose me with depression, and they're like, oh, you have depression? Depression? I was like, I don't have. I don't have depression because when I exercise every day, you know, 20, 30 minutes, it's like, my mood is fantastic.

Right.

You know, it's when I can't get anything done that my mind goes crazy and upset.

Yeah. And anyone, like, with real power training should be able to see that that's ADHD and not depression. I say H because it's all age now. So I know which, like, as an inactive type of add, I'm like, it's not H, you know, but the main category is adhd. And then they separate it to, like, hyperactive and not.

Yeah.

What is it?

What does the H stand for?

Yeah, and then there's. So there's the hyperactive type and then the inattentive type, which used to be a different. They used to just call that add.

That's what I am.

Exactly.

Same. Also same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't think I had it.

Same Z, same Z's. Like, I could sit still with the best of them.

Like. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, and that's another really interesting thing with ADD or ADHD is, like, when we're doing something that we're into, like, we can have hyper focus.

That's why I didn't think I had.

Exactly the same, like. And that's what makes it even the trickier to diagnose, because it's like, I can sit and play poker for 12 hours and a lot of people would say that's boring. But if my dopamine is flowing, then I'm good. But then for other things, like, I would have a hard time, like, reading a book, even though I love knowledge, like, I love learning shit, you know, But I just don't get the same sort of dopamine response. It's just as far as I understand. It's like your dopamine receptors just aren't as sensitive as other people's. So that's why we need to change up activities or like higher level planning those executive tasks. That executive functioning, like, it's just not the best because we don't get the dopamine release from it. So like, in my case, I'll just turn off and then I'll be like, I want to watch a YouTube video or like I want to browse like a shopping website. Like it's totally dumb shit. Whereas. And I just became medicated for it like two, three months ago. And I take like the lowest dosage of Adderall you could possibly get. And it's really different. Like I can work like 812 hours straight. Like, I don't shut it off. Like, I don't get bored. Nothing gets weird. Like higher planning and the ability to prioritize tasks right in my head. So like, I'll still get like the flash of, oh wait, you should do this other thing. And I'm like, nope, that's not as important. And it just goes away. Whereas when I'm not on medication, like, that other thing can take over and then I'm doing that other thing. Or like I've noticed, like in the past I would pull out a post it note and a pen and be like, okay, wait, I have to write this other thing down, this other idea I had. But when I'm on medication, like, it all stays in my brain and it all gets prioritized.

That sounds amazing.

Like the post spiritual, it's like changed.

My business and my life.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it was actually just the lowest dosage.

Again, it was actually your. So I posted on Facebook about it and then you commented on it and you're like, you know, I know everyone's like anti medication, but I do this ultra low dose. And here's what it's like.

Yeah.

You know, and that was like the first time I really considered maybe I should see a doctor about this and trying to quit trying to fix it myself.

Yeah.

You know, instead of slamming insane amounts of caffeine and other nootropics and you know, it's like I drink a bunch of caffeine and it's like I chill out.

Yep.

I can focus. Like my poor wife, she has like 50 milligrams and she's like bouncing off the walls. She's like, how do you have so much? I'm like, I know it doesn't work like that for me.

Yeah, they. Well, I think a lot of things with Adderall and ADD is like, doctors. That a lot of doctors don't know what they're doing. So you show up, and then they give you, like, a really high dosage of it for you. And then, like, people take it like they're on crack, and they do it for, like, two days and then stop doing it. And then they're like, oh, I felt terrible. How can you take that? And when I went on Adderall, I basically made a commitment to myself of, like, I'm gonna do this for a week. Because I'm like, the first, like, few days, I'm gonna probably feel really weird. And I did. I remember we went for, like, a walk in the neighborhood, and I was, like, cold the whole time. And we got back to our house, and I was, like, in sweats and, like, shaking. And the next day, I wrote an entire sales letter in, like, four hours, and we just blacked out, like, just the most crazy. But I'm like. But even I'm like, this isn't sustainable because I've been on it in the past as well, and I knew. But then I kind of. It evened out. And. Yeah, now, I mean, the max dosage that they generally would prescribe is 120 milligrams, and I'm on 20. And a lot of days, I'll just take 10 or 15. So it's like a 10th or less.

Of what, Ultramobile?

Yeah. Yeah. And this is a huge difference, though.

And I think even just, like, Adderall being a controlled substance just affects the. The way that it's treated. Whereas so many antidepressants are not controlled substances. So they're like, be depressed because I can give you an antidepressant.

I didn't prescribe them. Like, my pediatrician was prescribing me, like, Polbutrin, Cymbalta, Paxil, Proac, Hald. Schizophrenia, which I didn't know. Like, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So dangerous. Like, tinkering with your. The chemicals in your brain, like, that is so, so, so dangerous. And it needs to be something that's looked at more heavily. Yeah.

I mean, to be, like. I've talked about a little bit, but not a ton. But like, in my early, like, 20s, I had, like, a cocaine problem. And, like, I was, like, pretty. Like. Like, it was a period in my early 20s where I would do a gram of cocaine a day for, like. Yeah, for like, a year plus and sometimes more.

And you don't have a deviated That.

I saw an hour.

My sinuses are.

My sinuses are. I saw an hour just, like, maybe a month ago. They did, like, the nose thing. And he's, like, looking at this nostril, my right nostril, and he's like, everything seems okay. He looks at my left one. He's like, this one's pretty misshapen. I'm like, don't worry about it. Like, you know, like, what? Help me. Genetics. Yeah. Like. And back to my allergies. Don't worry about it. And then I got. But I got to a point then where I was like, I could only do it once a week, and I couldn't break that, like, cycle. And the first time that I went on, like, I broke it myself by moving to Florida and moving to the panhandle where there wasn't cocaine. So then I would, like, get drunk and, like, look for it, and I couldn't find it anywhere. And eventually.

That was a big reason that you chose to move.

It's a huge reason, which I don't talk about publicly. I don't know why I'm like, a couple white claws and some tequila on the clay, saying that might be served as much people. But, yeah, there's a reason. Yeah, Like, I need to break this habit. But really then, like, after, when you and I first got together, and I pretty much broke in at that point, but like, going on at the time, Modafinil, and then also Lamotrigine, which I think Kristen dad is on now, which it turns out I don't need the Lamotrine, because I was like, I have these mood swings. But really it was because of my lack of attentiveness. If I was in a situation where a bunch of things were competing for my attention, I would get missed off. But basically through ADD medications, like, where I actually was able to breaking. Which is funny, because then if you tell somebody when you're going to get, like, Adderall, if you have ADD that you do, like, use cocaine, they won't prescribe it to you because they're like, oh, you've got a substance abuse problem or something.

Yeah.

But the ironic part is, like, that's the dumbest thing ever, because, like, the reason you have a substance abuse problem is because of your add. That's what I finally realized. Like, oh. Like, it was because I. Because I wouldn't. If I'm at home on, like, a mellow night. Well, besides this really addicted period. Roasting a grande. But besides, like, generally, it's like, I would go out and it'd be much. People want to be loud. I'd be anxious and I would drink to like kind of COVID up for the anxiety and the edge. And I would keep drinking. And then because cocaine's addictive, you'd be like, well now I got, you know, kind of super back up. But it's this whole cycle from just being like overwhelmed by like stimulus. And once you're like, can just kind of cope with like, you know, that stimulus and you're like, okay, I don't guess I don't need to do like a drug that's up my sinuses all the time. Yeah.

Glad that you're talking about it now, whether you share this stuff about or not. Because I like so many high performing entrepreneurs that I know have struggled with drug addiction as have I sure. Like from a very young age I was like, I mean I wasn't doing gram a day but I was close. If I could have afforded it, I would have done.

I don't know how grand.

It's very expensive.

I'd have like a music business at the time which didn't work out, went under. There may be a correlation there. Where'd the money go? I don't know. But I'll make, you know.

Yeah, yeah, true. Like so many of the people that I know and we know, we work with like struggle with anxiety, with depression, with overwhelm, like you know, with, with things like this and they numb it with alcohol or drugs or what have you. And there is a stigma around taking medication. I think it's important to talk about it like they're around for a reason. And for some people it's extremely effective and needed.

Yeah.

And then there's a group of people that spoil it for everyone as we know. That's the same in every group for anything that's good. Right. And I think you start to destigmatize it when you talk about it. And it's someone who's doing really well that a lot of people look up to. Like has a successful marriage. Like. Right. Has like a family man. But like this is where you start to break it. And like talking about it I think is, is like important because then it makes other people feel comfortable.

Well, you don't feel alone.

Yeah, don't feel alone.

There's a couple, I don't name them because we're recording, but a few pretty well known people in our space who, because I've talked about my experience, battle regularly and then they've reached out to me and then now they are taking Adderall. And they were like, not, like, willy nilly, like, they've been diagnosed with ADD in the past. And then when I asked anything about.

Me so stressed when I'm stressed, I'm like, I need to watch a funny YouTube video.

Yes, break. Exactly.

Break the stress right now.

Does anyone want to pop, by the way? Yeah.

I'm just grateful.

Yeah. Well, like, the guy we. I'm so lucky. I saw a really good therapist or psychiatrist or how you would label him in Las Vegas.

He's a psychologist.

Psychologist. But he was. He talks about how, like, birds of a feather flock together, so. Cause even when I first went to see him, he was like, oh, your wife probably has add, too. He's like, what? And then, like, he was kind of like, we went through it. He's like, you know, kind of explaining why. But, yeah, I think. And I think for entrepreneurs, that we all. I think the vast majority of us probably do have add. And that's kind of like.

I think so.

But the funny thing is, I think you think, like, oh, but if I medicate, I'll lose all my gifts and all that stuff. It's like, I haven't lost shit. Like, I feel like I'm just a wildly more effective version of myself, like, than I was.

And it is interesting that that stigma to medication exists, because it's almost like, why? In a way. But I know I felt the exact same way. Like, when Stefan was first starting to take Adderall again, like, I was nervous about it mainly because I, like, I didn't want him to have, like, a helmet onto the world because, like, my.

Wife has said that the helmet.

The helmet.

Fair.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you're just not, like, fully. Well, I think, because when people take antidepressants, like, my experience with them has been, like, they just end up not feeling right instead of not feeling sad. They don't really feel anything. And they have, like, this little, like, literal blocker.

It's like you're muted, your personality completely on mute.

Yeah. That's why I slept. Yeah. 10 years ago. I mean, I've been on my mom. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that way.

Yeah.

And that was my concern with Adderall. But I think Adderall operates differently, for one. And then.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm certain there's still a place for antidepressants, too, like, when they're really needed. But if you've been being misdiagnosed this whole time, and if you have, like, untreated or poorly treated adhd, like, we're.

Never treated through my day so much. Yeah, I, like, totally.

And at first, yeah, like, I was resistant when Stefan was like, I think you have ADHD also, because, like, my symptoms are very different from his because, like, in a loud space, like, I'm okay. It doesn't bother me. Like, if I'm watching things, I can pay attention to them, but then they're all these little ways. Like I said before, I have trouble reading a really long sentence in a book because halfway through the sentence, I'm like, what was I just reading? And then I have to go back and read the sentence again. And then I tried to develop a coping strategy of, okay, let me just keep looking through the page, and then I'll get the general gist and I can turn to the next page and all that. And then, yeah, definitely planning. I was always shit at planning, but slightly better.

Yeah. I mean, look at your business. Even your skincare stuff. It's like, dude, it's fantastic. Also relied on other people and, like, yeah, whatever. But then, like, you got on Adderall, kind of, like, started, like, actually putting more focus and deep work into it, and then suddenly you were making boom. Yeah. Like, all grand sales a day. Like, really fast.

Like, 40k a month. Like, from literal zero to, like, 40k a month.

40K a month. Yeah. I'm going to headline to you.

It should be written just like that. Like, literal 0, 40, like, literally negative, because I'm paying these motherfuckers the way.

I actually heard it described from a friend, you know? Cause you talking about that, I'm like, I need to find a doctor, you know? But he says, imagine if you could find discipline in a pill.

So that means I'm gonna get this six pack. They look pretty fit.

It helps me train, too, but then it also helps me learn that, like, part of why I was training before was, like, to feel like I've accomplished something. You know what I mean? So it's like, oh, I went to the gym. They can't take that from me. I'm not a piece of shit today. I did that. And then, like, when I started, you.

Were speaking so deep to me, right?

And when I started taking the Adderall and I was, like, really, really into my work, and I still am, but I was like, man, I don't even. I want to go to the gym. Like, I want to get on the computer first thing. I want to, like, optimize my ads. I want to create a new offer.

I want to sell something.

Yeah, both of you guys should probably. Both of you should.

And actually, our therapist, like, a goodie.

Bag of treats before I leave or.

Like, yes, you can talk. I'm supposed to be. Supposed to be up on Wednesday or Thursday. Yeah. If you have any.

I brought wine and wine that you take.

I have quite a few extras. Yeah.

But, like, also, every other time that I've taken any Adderall, like, for play in the past, like, I was also, like, drinking and it was late at night and I didn't feel shit. Like, there's no difference. But if you're, like, actually taking it as medication first thing in the morning and it's a subtle difference. It's not something like, I'm high, like. No, it's just like, you go to work and you're like, oh, I've worked all day.

I want to go to work.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's, like, the thing that I struggle with. I love, like, what I do so much. Like, I love working with entrepreneurs. I love, like, working with clients. That's the part that drains me. The part that drains me is feeling like I can't get through all things I want to do in my day because there are things that I have to do that are not client related, that are, like, infrastructure, like, SOP related. And I'm just like, you know, and it's just, like, it takes me so much longer. I know the team's waiting on me. I'm bottlenecking it, and I can't wondering, is it just that I don't like leading my company and, like, doing these things, or is it because, like, I just can't focus long enough to do it?

Leading your company.

I love it. I love leading my team. Like, if I'm not with them, I miss them. Like, if we take any time off, I'm like, literally calling in the calls.

Like, yeah, but is that the same as creating the structures that lead them?

No. Like, and I'm like, really, like, work. Because I realized I was, like, outsourcing, like, it. And then I don't know what happened. It was within the last year, like, a light bulb went off in my brain. Like, oh, I can just change this. It's my company. But this works better for me. So we're gonna do it this way, you know, and it does work better for me. And so it works better, you know, down. Right. Instead of other people create the structure for me. Because I was outsourcing it. I was like, I'm not going to structure. It's like, you do it, you create it, and I'll just live inside the system because I just could not focus long enough to finish it. And now it pains me to the point where I'm like, okay, now it's full blown pain mode. This is not how we're gonna do it anymore. We're gonna do it this way. And the team just operates a lot better, which is something that I realized in the last year. Yeah, I don't know if you can identify with that at all.

Well, I'm just curious because from what I'm hearing, it sounds like there is an aversion to it. It's just not like, your greatest skill set or passion, but you've had the need to do it, and so you've done it.

Yeah. Like, in my company, my business partner is like, operations and like, basically, like, CFO style thing. And I'm like sales and, like, team, like, leadership. Like, the morale. Like, I'm capped with the morale ship. And I like that. Like, I'm the big ideas person.

Yeah.

You know, I'm the one that's like, oh, this is where I want to go. And then I have to figure out, like, how to get there. And I just realized, like, there are just things that we were doing that weren't, like, effective. And some of it was, like, especially around relationships. Like, we can't, like, farm out our relationships. Like, you have to keep a really close eye. You know what I mean? Like, here's how we check on them. Here's how we make sure they're healthy. Here's what we do with them. And, like, you can't really develop a system if you're not, like, coming from my brain, because I'm the best at that.

Right.

So we were getting good enough where people would see us and, like, oh, my God, amazing.

Don't make me live, like, all these.

Things, like, crushing it.

Like.

But there are things that I kept noticing about it where I was like, oh, we just, like, missing. Just like, this little. Missing the boat. Or if we could just take one step further and push a little bit more, we could have delighted them. Yeah.

Right.

So, like, now I'm forced to sit down, but okay, well, if I want them to follow it, I have to create the system for it. Yeah. You know you need a protege.

You know you need a protege because, like, Alana is, like, totally separate from you and, like, totally, like, crushing her side of it. And then you also have such a handle on your side of it, and then you have all of, like, the systems stuff that you need to imbue into somebody Else, like, to actually leave that part and do the planning, and then you handle everything that you're already handling. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had that last year. She was great, but she wasn't, like, the perfect fit for it.

Yeah.

You know, and I also realized how valuable it is to both let go of the reins of the team and see, like, how the team runs and also come back and grab the reins again and, like, put yourself in that driver's seat and be like, okay, so here are all the things we did well, and here are all the ways we got on the track. We need to pull these reins back together. And, like, having those reins back in your hand is like, oh, I see now where my failure of leadership is clearly. And also all the things that I was doing. Right. Yeah. You know, it's fascinating to see that.

But I agree.

I need a protege that's a closer fit to me than I was looking for an operator.

Yeah. You know, well, it's so hard, right? Because I felt so many times over the years, oh, I just wish I could, like, duplicate myself. If I had two of me, everything would be great. But that's obviously bullshit. If I had two of me, everything.

Would be twice as shitty.

Like, I think very different. We say, so how do you find that balance?

You know?

So true. Yeah. Yeah.

But in one way, they need a lot of me, though.

Yeah, they do, though. The DNA of the company.

Yeah.

So how do you guys solve the Protege problem?

With you guys, I don't know if I have the. I don't know if I've solved it, but I think. I mean, I'd like your language lore on, like, a Protege. Like, I generally, I guess I'm more of an opera in the operator phase, but I most have more acceptance, perhaps, which is good and bad. It's not like a. Like, in landing. Like, I partnered with Cody on some of the health supplement stuff, and I love Cody, and he's awesome, but he, you know, he's growing his supplement coming to, like, mid seven figures, which is awesome. But now, like, we have this thing that is doing, like, over a million dollars a month. So that's a different challenge. And we have a bunch of other offers. So I think for me, the advantage was having a really good network where I was able to find a guy who I knew who had skilled other stuff to, like, the mid eight figures. And I basically was like, who happened to be looking for something. And I was like, hey, you're the CEO now. Like, Tony, you have to hire this guy as a coo, and then my whole job was to connect them. Because my arrangement there is like, I get a profit share, but I'm not going to own the company or anything like that. Like, I just. So for me, it's like moving the pieces and that's how I approach it is like, how do I find the right, like, leverage for other people? That also creates leverage for me. Even with copying Starter and hiring, Brooks is kind of our director of client experience or whatever he is. I mean, it's amazing. I just don't know what to say. Was Justin and I, my partner at Copy Accelerator, are wildly different. And at first, for the first like nine months, I was kind of like worried about that because I've never actually been in business with somebody who's so different from me. Like, we're so different. And I was like, oh my God, we have like fundamentally different values. We're gonna clash. And we would clash on stuff. And I realized that a, like, that's actually this massive advantage going back to Laura's point, because if Justin and I were the same, I don't think our program would be nearly as effective as it is. But then like, we can each complement each other with our own strengths and then find that middle person who's like the implementer kind of integrator person. Like having them be like, all right, now go do all this shit they. Justin, I are talking about and find a way to kind of harmonize.

You guys are also both ideas guys too.

We are, yeah. So really recognizing that's super important, I think.

Yeah.

Because I learned that pretty early on where I can just like, Amber, I can spout out a 100 billion ideas. They're gold. Yeah. But if nobody do this right, then I'm like, I feel shitty. Everyone else feels shitty. I'm mad that nothing got implemented, so.

Or if they do try implementing them and you keep getting big ideas and they feel like they're overwhelmed. They're overwhelmed. I have done that to my team. They called me and alone at one point, the two headed Dragon. What is going on with so many.

Projects, with so many things, right? Like, I really wish I. I really wish I could say his name. I'll tell you guys after this because I don't want to, but he, because he called me. This is a really, really successful person in our space. And like this team was about to mutiny. His wife was about to like divorce him. I mean, because. And he'd been diagnosed with AD in the past, but never been medicated. And like, it Got to a point where he was like, I have to do something different. And he's like. Went on Adderall like a month ago and I saw him at our event, life changing and he was like, I.

Feel really good now.

The same thing. Because the team. You'd be like, we need to do this. And the whole team would start to do it, but wait, we need to do this. Trying to like, say they're paddling towards an island, but you keep switching which island it is and then. Very good. It's a pretty common, you know, ADD thing.

So.

Yeah.

So basically you need to start taking.

We'll talk after our therapist does do like conference calling. If any of you want to talk.

He.

He doesn't prescribe, but like, he could give you like a written.

He's the best. If I'm a billionaire, I will give him away to like, be my life coach. Like, so good.

Like, lot. Lot of deep seated shit. Yeah, he and I worked through that.

He brought up.

I was like, is that what it is?

It is so important to have a therapist that will call you on your. Yeah, like, I have a good one. I had the last. For the last like, year and a half. And she's like a narrative therapist. So she confronts you. Like, I've never had that in the past years. And I'm like, they're just like, listen, I wrote notes and like, you know, like, I understand why you're feeling that way. And my therapist is like, nah, I'm going to interrupt you now because I'm hearing a pattern here. This is coming up according to my notes. On January 31st, you have the same issue. We had a discussion. We haven't done so good.

So that's like what I really want on therapy.

Yeah. You don't. Like an enabler. That's okay.

Like, you know, any enabler therapist I've been to, I'm like, you're not experienced enough to deal with me.

You eat them out alive and then you get bored.

I feel like I'm getting a list. Things. Things to do.

A therapist.

Adderall.

Adderall.

You know what? To like, really? I don't know, like, raise an eyebrow. Like, things.

People.

I'm blanking on the word. But, like, have that aversion to, you know, things are that are like.

Therapists in Adderall.

Yeah, Therapist in Adderall.

Oh, totally.

But even like that stigma.

Stigma.

Yeah, like, it's stigmatized.

They copyrighted.

I know, right?

Thank God I don't write for a living.

If I can make money Just naming things people can't think of.

It's just true, though. It's like that hidden thing that's, like, stopping us from connecting with each other, stopping us from our own growth, like we're getting in our own way. Yeah. You know, and I think therapy is just, like, so, so, so important.

Yeah.

Mental health is, like, I think, the most important issue of our time.

Right.

Yeah. To be honest, it's not like the economy. It's not all that stuff. It's like what's happening between our two ears and how we talk to ourselves. And that, like, comes out in how we treat other people, how we treat ourselves. Absolutely. Like, honestly, like, the most. Like, it's the thing I'm most passionate about now. Especially after losing someone that I was so close to to suicide, like, in November of last year, and then losing my uncle to suicide and, like, losing multiple different friends. Like, you know, it gets to the point where you feel so alone and so overwhelmed that you're going to choose to exit your own life and, like, leave behind, like, a path of destruction. Like a nuclear bomb goes off in the lives of everyone who loves you. This is, like, so, so, so important. And, like, therapy is such a tremendous part of your healing process and feeling safe and, like, of course, the supportive community. And you get, like, you know, relationship. All that stuff helps. But, like, it's at the end of the day, it's like you and your thoughts and if Adderall helps, sort it out, organize it. Yeah. You know, and exercise helps get that stuff out. And talking about with a trained therapist who's going to call you on your. And support you on your growth, like, that's like, where we get through this. That's where we break through.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100%. Yeah. It's crazy, the stigmatization. Is that a word?

Yeah, yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

Like Adderall. But even Adderall stigmatized. But it's more like stereotypical because people were like, oh, yeah, I took once in college, ran an all nighter, and, you know, man, I couldn't sleep, but I smoked a bunch of cigarettes. And you're like, okay, cool. Like, that was you in college, like, abusing a drug. Like, if you sick it every day, like, I feel like even more so, like, with therapy and people don't talk about that. But then when I. You'll notice the pattern. A lot of really high achievers and really successful people who are really in, like, an enlightened space, and it's like, oh, and then I saw a therapist and they helped Me work through all my shit. And you're like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Because that's what therapists do when they're good. Like, and that's thing for me. I mean, like, I don't know Joe Polish, but I've seen him talk a couple times and I know, you know, a bit. And like, I know he talks about how he had a drug addiction and all that kind of stuff, which he didn't talk about for a long time. Right. And then he did, and it was really, like, freeing for him. But even for me, as somebody who struggled with drug addiction, like, to hear him talk about it made me feel like, even better about. I can talk about that. I went through something kind of similar. It wasn't not the same, but like, I had my own issues. And so with me, with talking about, like Adderall or therapy or whatever, I do hope and actually it's happening. I know a bunch of people who now are taking Adderall or managing their ADD or seeing therapists. And so I'd rather just be vocal about that. Right. And if it helps somebody to live a better life because we're only here for so long regardless, you might as well make the most of what you have in the time you have.

I think we're only. We can only get as close as our secrets allow us to.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know, and like, that's what I like about Joe. It's like he's leading. Like he wasn't just a drug addict, he was a sex addict.

Yeah.

You know, and had like, all. And he's one of the. Like, he came to my house a couple months ago and stayed with us. And it's like, that's when I got started working out again. This guy woke me up every day like, dude, let's get up in the gym kicking my ass. Like, you know, like, you know, yeah, this is terrible. He's like, do it every day with me because he knew I was like depressed and like struggling like there every day. And then he'd be telling me like, you know, this is like, you have to get out of it or else you're gonna be turning to other out. It's unhealthy. Like, you know, and like him being so public about it, you being so public about it. Like, us being so public about it. Like when we bring it out and we don't have shame, like there might be like embarrassment or vulnerability hangover after maybe we never ever have this go live. Because you get that. You get vulnerability hangover.

Right.

And it's true. And it also, when you do that, like, it creates space for everyone else and it gives you space to breathe and it allows us to be closer. Because you've shared this with me now and you share with other people. And I think that's where, like, the stigma around Adderall and depression and suicide and drug addiction, all stuff, like, festers because we're ashamed of it.

Yeah.

We sit on it like, oh, what if someone finds out? Okay. What if hundreds of people find out? Yeah. How do you change your relationship with your wife, your kid, your business partners, your business? Like, not anybody, really. Unless they're dicks. Yeah, Great. You just filtered yourself out.

Yeah.

Really? Right. Like you filtered your. By telling my truth and it repels you. You filtered yourself out of my life. If what I said draws you closer, like, I, you know, filtered you in.

Yeah, I think, I mean, it's sort of the same. But my. Just think about Joe Polish, because at your Mimosa Mastermind event at Traffic and Conversion last. Last spring, and he came as like, kind of surprise. And I heard of him, but I never, like, met him. And I was like, honestly, a little bit like, I don't know, like, it's like I really got followed in Joe Polish's career, but I was still like, Joe Paul, I've heard of. Oh, you know, I was a little like, starstruck in a way.

Yeah.

And he was like, talking to the group and he's like talking about how, you know, people identify themselves by like, their, like, their jobs. But, like, what do you do? And he's like. And then I don't think you're gonna remember this, which is good. Yeah. You know, for example, like, what do you do? He pointed to me and I was just like, marketing as a marketer. Yeah. So I'm like, health supplements. And I remember being like, okay, what do you do? Well, I run like a, you know, startup platform that helps them. I'm like, oh, like, my answer is so stupid. In my head, I had that moment of like, I'm a idiot. Like, I was so dumb in front of everybody, in front of this celebrity. But then I. Yeah, but then I actually laughed, like, about it, really. And I was really proud of myself for that because I immediately was like, this is a. This is. I'll go tell this story sometime. And I just totally crack up about it. And I told a few people since then and I was glad I was able to be from a place of laughing. But I'll never forget that, cuz it was so Entire room of marketers. And I'm like, marketing. Yeah, Everybody here does marketing.

I love what you said. It's so funny, like, what kind of ecosystems we live in. Because when you first, like, you don't remember that.

I was like, oh, is it because.

I was too drunk? I've had to happen. My own events happen last year. But, you know, other times where you, you know, you, like, hear that, you're like, oh. Like, you know, you have your own stories around everything. And, like, he asked that question because it's a trick question, right? Because people in the room are going to say, marketing. Like, that's the reason why he said it.

You know, the dummy who fell for it.

But, like, even he's asked it because it works.

But for me, too. And I was like, nobody else is gonna remember that. That's the way no one will remember that. No one. Oh, Stefan gave a dumb answer. Like, I thought he was cool, but he's a loser. You know what I mean? Like, nobody needs to learn that.

They don't need to be in your life.

That's the thing. Like, somebody thought that. Right back to your point.

Somebody.

Yeah. Still thinks of that.

Yeah.

I'm gonna unsubscribe from his list.

Marketing. Marketing.

Still do.

Like, less so now. But I have flashbacks at times of, like, really embarrassing moments in my life where I've, like, said the worst thing. But I. But I know, like, nobody else is flashing back to that moment. It's just me.

We're all think of ourselves.

Yeah.

That's exactly what we all are. That's. What's the dude's name? John Mulvaney. The guy from on. Somebody. And I was doing the thing where I'm like, aha. So my friend then finished talking so I can talk about myself, and I'm like, that's perfect. Obviously, so many conversations where you're like, huh. Huh? Yeah, my turn, my turn.

Yeah, it's true.

Like, we were talking about earlier, when you hear a recording of your own voice and you're like, I sound so dumb. Like, my voice is way higher than I thought it was, and it's like, oh, I slur those letters.

Apparently.

That's the thing I do. Never thinks I've been here.

La Croix, anywhere.

Yeah.

I can't believe I said lacroix. Lacroix.

It's true.

And by the way, Joe is one of the most gracious human beings ever.

Yeah. Love you.

Yeah, he's awesome.

I have a feeling I'll end up in his. I mean, I joined so many Masterminds. But. But I feel like I'll probably end up in his mastermind at some point. One of his groups or whatever.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, every mastermind has its own, like, value set and everything. I think for Joe, his, like, genius is his ability to find, like everyone that everyone wants to meet and be close with.

Right.

And bring them in. And he has like, those kinds of relationships and like, it's. I mean, he's doing it for 25 years.

Yeah.

Like, to have that kind of longevity. Like, you know, it's like everyone meets the pooi lady and he's like, bam, I know her. You know what I mean? It's just like, it's awesome. Like, that's like the value. And they have like, great ideas and every. You know, they all have their own. Like, you have focus on copy. There's other ones that have focus on finance or like, they have all these things. But like, for him, that's like his superpowers, like his. His, like people collection is amazing. And he's like zero judgment of anyone, so it's rad.

That's really cool.

Yeah. Yeah. If you ever want me to connect you, I'm happy to.

I appreciate that. He's.

He's awesome.

Cool.

You can talk to him forever about, like, working out.

Marketing. Hi. Hi. Marketing. Copyright.

I thought you up.

Words. I write words.

Stuff.

That would have been awesome. I love what you said because it's literally we spend all of our time, like, I cannot tell you how many hours of my life, probably years I've wasted cinema ruminating about that stupid ass thing that I said someone or what I did, you know, And I'm just like beating myself to. To death about it. It's like they don't stay awake at night thinking about it ever.

Ever.

They're sitting up thinking about their shitty.

Things that they do.

You know, someone still singing terrible like that. And you're like, oh, that was weird. And then you fall off your back.

And it even has to be like super terrible for us to even register. Oh, yeah, that was weird.

Super weird.

But then that's all we like.

Oh, yeah. So, yeah, something like.

I like, if we're feeling particularly empathic, we might be like, maybe they're in some sort of place.

Yeah.

Apparently what I said just rattled skeletons in their closet.

And if it's a real skeleton, I normally just like that person more like that was some sick shit.

They said it was real.

I kind of like that.

Just roll your eyes like, wow, that was weird. That's it.

I was just looking for connection, acceptance.

Like, you know, love and. Yep.

Yeah. So totally true.

Words and words and stuff.

Words.

Marketing. Marketing.

Are you guys, like, is your love language's word of affirmation? Because I feel like that would be, like, such a great thing for the two that you're, like, dating as copywriters. I bet you just. If it was. Was like, you're constantly giving, like, the best words of affirmations.

I think for both of us, that, like, lands in the middle. Stefan is acts of service and I'm quality time. Which is hilarious because we, like, spend a lot of time together, but if it's not a lot, a lot.

If.

It'S not quality time, it doesn't count.

Yeah.

If we're sitting in the same room.

Working too, like, I love it. You know, it's not. I'd be like, let's go to dinner later.

Staring at the back of your neck from last night out.

We literally did that just the other day. It was like, we were the literally the entire day from, like, 7am until it was like 9. 9pm like, the entire day. And then we got to bed. She's like, hi. I feel like I haven't seen you all day. Like, what. What are you talking. We literally spending. We had all this convers conversations. Like, we did all this stuff. It was a conversation about work, so it wasn't, like, quality time. So. Yeah, now, you know, you just say.

Like, honey, when you take out the trash, and then we, like, more into.

Like, she brings me, like, a dinner on a plate or something, and it's like, hey, I made this. I'm like, oh, my God.

Yeah.

You know? Yeah.

I feel like we just reached a new level in our relationship.

It's true.

But I feel like my. Some of my, like, leveling would just change based on, like, where I am in my life. Because, like, right now, act of service would go huge for me. Super busy, you know? Like, it's like, oh, you do something, you take something off my plate. I'm so grateful. Like, in the past, like, when I wasn't as busy, it was definitely, like, words of affirmation and physical touch. You know what I mean? It's like, it's interesting how you change in your life and also, like, how different you might be in your partnership. Like, you might have someone who's a super affectionate. So you're like, oh, my cup is already full there. Like, I need something else.

Yeah.

You know, that's really interesting.

Yeah.

Between Laura and I, and she's very tactile and I'm not. So she'll say we go like days without touching, which sounds like really awful when I hear her say that. I don't think that's entirely true. So give it. We'll kiss every night.

Different definitions of touching.

But I'm not like a big. Yeah, that's me not being super tactile, I guess because like we'll cuddle for a minute but like then it's like time to go to bed. I'm on my side of the bed. Yeah, all that.

But she means you didn't spend a lot of time making out. I mean it's like a different touch.

Yes. I'm like, oh, you know, make out, I'll make out. I don't know. For some reason that doesn't work, you know. But like knowing that shit is so interesting, right? That's the thing you mean, you know, therapy and all that. But even like knowing your love languages or knowing what kind of communicator you are and all that kind of stuff is really being a little more self aware about that stuff is really valuable, I guess.

That's hugely valuable. Have you ever read Attached?

I haven't.

It's an interesting, super interesting book. I recommend anyone reading it. It's like talking about how there's like different attachment styles and they. It's like Harvard research, like back like you know, if you have like a child, you like left them in the crib and let them scream, you know, for a long time they might have like anxious attachment disorder. Right. As they grow up, it's like just different like ways of adapting. So you have like anxious attachment, avoidant secures. Everyone wants to be secure, right? But it's like they tell you like what the different populations and then you have like a small, very small segment of people that are anxious and avoidant. Right. So it's like, then you figure out like what you are and it makes so much more sense. And like your attachment stuff because you might be an anxious dating and avoidance. You're gonna just trigger out of each other all the time. Right? Right. And you might be too avoidant stating that's not gonna work. You're just gonna constantly avoid each other.

When they get are difficult.

Right. It's like, it's just like so interesting. It's like how do you move into a secure person, like a secure partnership if you're not or if you're a secure person? How do you date someone who's anxious or avoidant? And like it's like a really interesting thing. And once you, like, read it and like go through the test, you're like, oh my God, I'm so clearly like an anxious attachment disorder. Like, oh my God. Like, this is why I do these things and this is why I trigger the out of my partner who's insecure and avoidant. Like, it's super, super interesting book. And it has, of course, quizzes in it. So you can like, self diagnose.

Yeah.

Like, it's, it's fascinating because you've learned so much about yourself. Like, and also see where you know, you do like a. Almost like an inventory of your past relationships. And you start looking through it, you're like, oh my God, that's why I failed. Because it was like two anxious people dating or two, you know, avoidant and an anxious person. Like, it's really interesting. Let's talk about the book attached. I don't know if you've read it. Oh, no, it's great. If you want to learn about your attachment style. If you're anxious, avoidant, Anxious, avoidant, anxious avoidant or secure, I kind of order it right away.

It kind of, for me, like a nature nurture thing there. Because it's really interesting because when you learn all that, you're like, okay, a lot of our problems are like, fundamentally problems of like, communication and based on like different communication styles or that's like physical or verbal or emotional or whatever. So, okay, like, if we got rid of all those problems, would we all just get along, like all the time? Right. Maybe. But then at the same time, why do we have them from the beginning? Right. So I don't know. It's kind of an interesting thing to think about, like, how much of it is like, the nature of how we're just fundamentally different versus, like, what we. How we're affected growing up in childhood that then impacts and influences our relationships because we were left in the crib for too long.

Yeah.

And like, if everyone had the ideal, like nurture or what was the one that one strives for?

Secure.

If everyone had a secure upbringing, like, what would the road look like? Would it be a really perfect, harmonious road or would that be fucking weird? Because we'd all be secure, but we still have this innate thing where we were like, ugh, God, everyone's so secure. Like, just go have some problems. Like, you know, or they're all wired differently.

So, like, you know, even if we're secure, I think we'd still be different variations of secure. And I also think, like, you know, it's Been like a year since I read the book. But, like, my understanding of it is that you can be a secure person that gets pulled into, like, anxious if you're dating, like, an avoidant. Right. So it's just like, you're different people in different relationships and different stages of your life, and there are going to be certain foundational things that are going to stay with you.

Right.

And stay the same. But, like, it's also dependent on, like, who you are, who you're dating, if you've been working on your traumas and, like, you know, talking things through. It's interesting. Like, it's almost like I was talking about that podcast, like, Daniel Amen today. It's almost like genetics, where he was saying, like, genetics is a loaded gun, but your environment pulls the trigger. It's interesting, right? How much is your DNA? How much is your genetic. And then how much is it your environment and what you're eating and, like, what you're thinking? Because I don't think what you're thinking is part of your DNA.

Right. Well.

Or maybe how you feel about what you're thinking.

Or I can argue microbiome cause anxiety, but, like, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

I wasn't prepared to think so deeply. What is in this?

Natural flavors.

Yeah.

What the. Are you okay? Yeah.

It's flavored with the ghost of watermelon.

The ghost. Oh, my God.

I had heard, like, a really fascinating thing not too long ago on npr. They were interviewing this, like, relationship expert mathematician. Right. So she was like, okay, one plus one equals love. Yeah, pretty much. So there's like, a length of time when a person in a relationship gets annoyed by something their partner did. And when they speak up about it, like, they call it, like, beta, whatever. Right. And then, like, the rate at which those relationships last, and you would think maybe that, like, the longer the beta. So the longer people could go before, you know, letting out that they've been annoyed, the better the relationship. No, the exact inverse is proven to be what helps a relationship last longer. So, like, the sooner somebody communicates that they're annoyed about something, the longer the relationship lasts. Which I definitely felt to be true with Stefan and I, because, like, anytime either of us is even mildly annoyed at the other, we're both like, you know, this thing you did kind of annoyed me.

Now we're like that.

Now we're Exactly. Now we're like that.

Early on we were like, let's go, like, talk to our exes and try terrible shit and self sabotage.

Did you do therapy?

Yes.

No.

We have not actually ever been to couples therapy? Yeah, we.

No, we broke up a couple times in like, dramatic, terrible ways.

We've broken up twice.

Yeah.

Yeah. I always tell it as once was my fault and once was his fault. It's probably true.

That's not as fair.

It was really evil, though.

We always find each other. I joked earlier how, like, we're always kind of working together, even when we were broken up. But, like, what makes me laugh the most is that he had written this badass diabetes offer and Compliant, super compliant.

Ftc stay over there.

Yeah, it's just really like, not even diabetes.

Diabetes. Blood sugar.

Erratic blood sugar.

I remember that.

And then I started running affiliate ads to it on Facebook and that was the first time, like, I ever crushed it, like, as an affiliate marketer. And we were broken up and I'm like, it's this fucker's copy that's like paying me 10 grand a month, like cash. That I just came up so mad and so happy at the same time.

Well, then you couldn't be mad because she's making you all this money. Because if she's making 10 grand, you.

Guys are better together.

I know, exactly, right? And we totally are. Like, even, you know, the numbers show it. But I took a screenshot recently of the ad I was running. Thank God this isn't on camera because.

It was totally non compliant.

It's amazing that they let me run this ad for months.

Then they totally banned me.

But like, I'm back now. Somehow I don't. I have no idea why, but like, I clicked over to my personal ad account.

It's live.

I can run ads again.

Wow. Awesome.

Big mistake, Facebook.

Big mistake.

I'm bad.

Bad. The coronavirus man has really.

Coronavirus bags.

Yes.

I want everyone back on.

220 a share to 146 a share. Anything.

I see, like, the copper, there's like a copper offer, like, oh, yeah. They're always up towards the top of my feed, so I know they're doing.

A lot of stuff in there. Oh, yeah. It's gonna be the good old times for that.

I love it though, because their headline is don't catch a virus.

So cute.

I'm like, you're adorable.

You're adorable.

We're going through our messages for you after you scroll. That's the other busy. I've heard a couple like, yeah, we like, are in the same room all day every day with our messenger history. Because we will message each other. We're in the same room. I'm not crazy. Admit it, like. Yeah, quite a bit, actually. Yeah.

And Stefan always wakes up before me, so he, like, wakes up and comes out to the living room, and then I wake up in bed and I send him, like, a little hello message. And then he comes in and says hi to me.

Yeah. When I'm here.

What do you normally do? Yeah, but even that's.

That's really sweet.

I do. Everything I'm doing is right inside. I love. Give her a kiss. I'm like, I gotta finish this email. And I go back.

Stop texting me.

Oh, I sent her, like, the occasional cute photo.

You know.

This is the perfect actual setup to the diabetes photo in my ads. I'm erratic. Blood sugar.

That's right.

Yeah. Scooping diabetes.

There she is.

Oh, God, man.

Everything about this is so good.

Months.

Like nearly a year. And not for nothing, the copy's pretty good on it too.

Okay.

Oh, that is legit.

Hold on.

They let me run. Oh, my God.

Jordan was making $10,000 a month.

I like that. It's gracefully 50.

That's.

I still have that Facebook page.

Scary dude.

And I didn't take a screenshot of it, but I could probably still go back and find. But all the comments on it, people were just like, oh, yeah, my feet are even worse. You know, they were like, oh, yeah, like, what? Let me in?

Like, 349 shares.

Oh, God.

That would have been what? I guess like 20. Was that like late 2015, early 2016.

It was 2014. Yeah, 2014, when it working in the hospital, I would see that.

You were at that no more.

People would walk in with those on their feet and they would squish. There would be fluid on the floor.

For people listening without implications.

Yeah.

I mean, you can opt into our email list.com and.

Hold on, I need to go buy that.

Doing.

Yeah. Look at all these new leads. I'm getting. This podcast brought to you by.

Send you this white file.

Backslash. All ulcers. Backslash. Not diabetes cures.

Oh, my God.

They did let me run it for.

For a good time.

And, like, I was only, like, servicing clients at that time, so, like, to be able to make my, you know, some money without serving clients.

I, like, I was really happy about that.

Yeah.

But then I was like, is this motherfucker's copy?

Sure. Yeah. Then we reunited and reconnected.

We did diabetes.

Thank you.

How long's your down period?

Period?

I mean, you had the two, so it was like 2013 was one of them. And then 20, like 16.

That sounds right to me. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm glad you guys are back together now, 2016. The second one was my fault, but it was like, this isn't an excuse or anything like that, but a lot of it was, like, the stress of having. Because that same offer in that company, like, wasn't working like I thought it would. And, like, I had hired people and I had all this stuff. I just remember being, like, so stressed and be like, I can't do a relationship right now. Like, I've got, you know, I'm failing this business, feeling like people are depending on me and I'm about to fire them. And, like, a huge part was, like, the stress of not knowing what I was doing. And like, I think for me now, like, teaching and sharing and training and all the stuff I do, it's like, to help people, to not have to go on that path because, like, it turns out there actually is a pretty. It's not as easy, but people have done it. Whatever you're trying to do. Right. People have done before. So the importance of, like, masterminds and mentorship and all that kind of stuff, like, really, it's not just about making money, but it's also. It can alleviate a ton of, like, stress and the dynamics of your relationships as well.

Yeah.

100.

Like, not to plug Mastermind, but, like.

No.

It'S like, I. I don't know if you have experiences, but I still have, like, some friends from, like, college or, like, high school. But, like, they're like, close, close, super intimate circle. I can count on them for anything. But, like, they're like, the rest of the people in my inner circle are like our friends in the industry.

Totally.

Because they get what I'm going through. Yeah. And, like, there's just something to be said. Like, some of my closest friends are like, a social worker or an attorney or, like, you know, I mean, but it's not like, an entrepreneur, and it's not entrepreneur in the Dr. Space, not an entrepreneur in the house. Like, it's just like a totally different level of pressure and, like, and highs and lows and, like, you know, all these things. And I feel like I've met my closest friends through Masterminds and, like, feeling like, you know, we're all going through the same, like, level of pain.

It's like trauma bonding. We're all going through the same trauma together.

But, yeah.

I got another domain to buy. It's the newest mastermind. $101,000.

I see a need for it.

Yeah.

I just remember early on and even talking to other people from Masterminds. When I first started going about how you can feel like you're like on an island as an entrepreneur. But what's actually funny for me is I feel like I haven't felt that way in several years actually. And the reason why is because of my network, my entire network, to your point. Amber is from Astronomy and like the first one I went to was like, I don't teach like time claps anything, but it's like there's this count. Like Ian Stanley is a really good friend of mine where we actually, we do some business together.

Met him there.

Dan Alexander we talked about earlier.

Met him there.

Go Rich Andre, Charles Livingston, like Ed Clay, who's really an amazing dude. He's like curing cancer. Like cancer hospitals all over Mexico. Just the list goes on and on and yeah, then yeah, just through them meeting other people, like the affiliates. My whole introduction to the affiliate world, like Braun Miller, which I don't know what he's doing but he introduced me to Stephen Patton, who I think you've met before, and Steven Patton and I did like 15, 20 million the next year in like revenue for my offer, which year before we done a million but lost 200,000. And I thought I was going to give up and fucking like quit everything and go back to being a copy chief. And it all just came from masterminds. So it's not even like pluggy masterminds. It's like if you can half afford it, you should be. I don't care what. There's better masterminds. Some are much better than others. But you should be in a mastermind if you can afford it. It's like a life changing thing. I don't know. I'm a huge. I'll forever be a believer in masterminds.

Me too.

Totally. And even like my very first good paying copy clients I got from a mastermind. And it was like a Warrior Forum event like in had to be like 2010 and like it was like 149 bucks. And I tried to message the guy for him to give me half off a ticket. Like that's how cheap I was at that time. I'm like, you know, like I bring value. Like give me half off. He was like, no. And so like I had to scrape it together and go. And then I met my first people. I got my first and like from there, that was it.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? There's nothing like being in person and being eye to eye with someone like that is the game changer. And then what I love so much about this industry is, like, with the exception of the coronavirus happening right now, like, we spend on average, minimum 10 events a year. Like, we're spending two, three, four, five days together. All together. And, like, for me, because of the nature of my business, I'm doing 30, 40 a year. And, like, you're spending so many hours with these people. Like, how could you not, like, be close to them? How could you not be invested in, like, what's going on in their lives and their businesses and, like, grow that, like, bridge of trust. Like, it's so valuable. Like, there's nothing to replace that. And, like, I, like, I'm missing it already.

Like, totally. Yeah. You know, like, this is so great right now.

Starved, like, for this, like, connection. Yeah. Like, it's priceless. But, like, we met through masterminding. Yeah. Except for you.

I just show up kind of. Yes.

I'm kind of.

Those secrets from you where you show up. The surf.

Yeah.

But even then, the gladiator thing.

You're a good listener.

Yes.

He's a great student. Yeah, he's a great student.

The coolest thing about our industry, like, Jimmy and I have, like, interacted on Facebook for, I don't know, a year, two years now, whatever it is.

Yeah.

And, like, he messaged me on what day was that?

Like, Wednesday when it came in.

Wednesday. So five days ago, I was like, hey, man, like, I'm ready to take you out to dinner, buy you a drink or something. And I was like, oh. Like, are you in Vegas? And he was like, like, no, I'm in San Diego. I thought you were like, oh, yeah. How did you know? Like, you put it on Facebook or your list? And I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, I'm in San Diego. It's a great. And they're like, oh, yeah, let's get together.

They're like, oh, actually, I can't check into my.

This is like 9am in the morning. It's like, I can't check into my hotel until, like, 4pm so you mentioned you have, like, you're working at, like, a regis office. I'm like, yeah. He's like, can I just come work from there, too? I was like, sure. And he just, like, 30 minutes later, Jimmy was like, at the office. And then he's a closer.

That's why.

Yeah. It wasn't looking good at all.

It was.

A dude showed up. I was on a call. And then we all just got. We had an office and we're running. So it was like, Laura and me and Jimmy we had four desks in there, and we always worked in the same office for the next, like, six hours. And then we didn't even talk that much. Like, we talked like maybe 10 minutes the entire time.

We're all just gr.

You know, we'd all just giggle at.

The same, like, funny happenings in the office.

Well, I guess if your husband Paul.

Would say something awkward and I would look at her, she'd be like.

Happens a lot.

Yeah, well, where a lot of that came from too. I remember it was in one of the Facebook groups, right, where we were talking about, you know, feeling like you're allowed to be in the room with this environment. And like, you wrote something about that. And I was like, oh, like that just like, you know, resonated with me. You know, notice how resonated is the positive version of triggered. It just like it totally resonated with me. It's like, oh, like you're allowed to be there. And so what that gave me was, you know, which when we talk about belief shifting patterns and is taking all of these negative characteristics that someone has and then using those and saying, no, those are actually positive characteristics. You know, you have ADD and you can't pay attention. And this is like, actually that doesn't make you malfunctional or whatever. You know, it's like, that's actually what an entrepreneur is. And suddenly it's like, oh, you know, so it gives you permission. So, like, you saying that in a way, like, gave me permission to feel okay to be in the room with people, you know, so suddenly it's like all this, like, pseudo quasi celebrity status that everyone has, like, it's just like neutralized. And so it's like, you know, fluid is just like, you know, like you like all these other people just message. It's how we connected with Oren. I just shot him an email, you know, like, you know, like guys like Danny, Ariella, you know, I just shot him an email. And we email back and forth and it's like all these people, they're just normal people. So flying in, there's just like, you know, you hear, you know, from the closer standpoint, it's just like, it was. It was easy, it was just hang out.

It's also how you show up, though. Like, I remember, like, vividly when we had our deal making live event, you got there early and we were like, we're unpacking. I mean, we had to unload I don't know how many boxes, like, set up all the gift bags, like, do all we Hand seat every single person. And, like, you got there early and you showed up and you were helping us onload like you were a team member. Like, you were helping. Like, literally, you lugged like a ton of boxes and help us set everything up. Like. Like, I'll not forget, that's how you also show up. It's like there's multiple layers here. It's like that you're willing to ask, that Stefan's really willing to respond and willing to, like, open up. Right. And so are you. And, you know, it's how you show up.

Like, it's with no agenda, no ulterior motives.

Right.

That's the thing.

I think you and I are peers. So it's not like I'm like, of course. You're just. It's cool because we don't. We didn't really actually know each other, but, like, because of registry, you're like, I'm a town, like, come over. So, you know, I think you and I are completely peers. But, like, even if, like, a person who was more of a beginner had, like, reached out to me, I would do the same thing. But then what if they showed up and were like, can you copy cheat my shit the entire time? Yeah. Oh, this is a huge mistake. I gotta do my own stuff, right?

Yeah. But now he's here in your house.

Yeah.

Yeah. Cause you guys are, like, friends now.

Oh, yeah.

It's how we show up. I think it's really, really fun. Like, I'll never forget that. Like, I remember it was Brad that text me, like, how's Jimmy doing? And I was like, how's Jimmy doing? Killing it. How old do you love him?

Showed up because we're a team of.

All girls, and for one guy, these things are heavy.

You know what I mean?

Like, you're carrying really heavy shit. Like, Jimmy's are, like, just hanging out, like, helping us all. You were there with us for hours. You know, it was like, that's how you show up. So I think it's really important.

Brad. Brad's the knee fellow.

His lips. But he was checking up on you, you know, and it was. It was the truth. You were like, adding a ton of value to our lives, just being there, being willing to help.

Thank you.

That is true, though.

I talked about that at our. The event in Vegas because I really made a point, which is actually kind of cool to be like, hey, like, introverts and people have imposter syndrome. Like, you're safe here. I went out of my way to, like, found the very opening Talk. Which is cool, because then several people came up to me and were like, hey, this really actually helped me a lot. But it was true.

It was like, you never go up.

To somebody and you're like, hi, I'm just starting out. And they're like, fuck you. Yeah. And it doesn't happen.

No, that's how you feel.

That's how you feel.

Yeah.

But you're like, never actually happened.

Once you laugh at it, you're like, oh, yes, right. Nobody would do that. It helps people to get that way. Oh, my gosh.

And we actually ended up having this whole moment for the copywriters because it kind of became an ongoing Joe Cow copyright. So introverted. Like, there are so many business owners there who, like, desperately want copywriters. And yet the freelance copywriters, like, will never know it because they're like, how do I get a client?

You know?

And they're all right there, like, how do I get a copywriter?

You know?

And then it ended up being, okay, business owners, stand up, say your business. Okay, here they are, you guys. And then that only went so far.

Yeah, that only went so far.

And I had the idea. I was like, okay, let me give the freelancers a center. So I grabbed the mic and I'm like, okay, you guys who are still not gonna go up, go up now and say, I'm a copywriter. I wanna work for you. There's your opening sense if you need that. And then David Gonzalez was like, okay. He was like, business owners go up to the back of the wall. Copywriters. Go up to them right now and do that. So, like, we created this whole little, like, copywriter business owner, speed dating, which both sides got a ton of value from it. And then they were even. So, you know, most people went. But then I even saw a few little straggler copywriters on the side walking kind of back and forth, like, I.

Don'T want to ask her.

I know.

So I went up and I was like, are you interested in their business? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, get it? Then I push them in. And so that just, like.

You cut it out.

But that just gave us so many ideas for ways to like, further empower, like, those connections in the future, you know? And I think it was David who had the idea, too, to put next time, put the copywriters up there and let the business owners walk up to them, like, I need this, I need that. Like, what a. You know, that would be so empowering, like, as a freelance copywriter who's trying to get clients. Like, they're just walking up to you saying, I need this, I need this.

Do you ever ask them before, like, the intake of, like, who they want to meet?

We do, yeah. We do ask what they're looking for. So not who, but like, we're like, what are you looking for? So what's funny is a lot of business owners are like, I'm literally going to your event to hire copywriters. And we tell the copywriters, like, these people are here to hire you.

Yeah.

Which is funny. And not just for copyrights, but any freelancer, you get all, like, afraid. But it's like, if you're at a level in your business where you're doing anywhere from even a couple million, but definitely a 10 million up to, like 100 million or beyond, it's like, you're gonna hire actually more people. Right. You constantly need copy, you constantly need designers, you constantly need. You need all this shit. Like, because you have so much stuff going on and. But, you know, as covers are like, I don't know, three people already talk to that person. You're like, great. They'll probably hire all three of them. If you talk, they'll also hire you.

Yeah.

So we do that, but we're going to be even more strategic. Yeah. With trying to, like, we do a lot of matchmakes, really curated. Like, even the cocktail reception, the opening night. I mean, like, what are you looking for? And it's like, well, I'm trying to do this or I'm trying to do that. And then I'll, like, drive people.

Yeah.

This is where the Adderall is so helpful because I used to not be able to do this stuff. And I love literally drag a copywriter to a business owner, put them together, and then just, like, hug them both and walk away.

Like.

And it's so crazy because, like, then some of the writers, like, after the event, you're, like, talking to some of the copywriters, people who join especially. We're trying to get really good over fall, and we're like, you know how to go with that person? Well, I. I haven't emailed them. And they're like, what the. Like, well, now it's been, like, four days. Is that too long? Is it too late? Did I blow my chance? You're like, no. Fucking email them now. Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, you want to blame them, but it's like, it's just hard if you have a lot of, like, imposter syndrome or anxiety or you don't feel like you belong. Like, so you really have to, like, try to bring people, kind of get them to. To come along with you.

I just need to learn that, like, it's okay.

Yeah.

Four days. It's okay. Email them. 14 days.

Totally.

Yeah.

There's so much. So, like, I keep hearing about what's going on. Yeah, exactly. That's, like, part of, like, in my business. I, like, I tell people, like, literally half my day is telling them and empowering them and, like, strategizing with them on how to approach these obstacles in their life. Like, it's literally, like, it's easy for me because I've gone, like, I know how to negotiate, how to pivot through, like, these objections. I've been doing sales for so long, so to me, it's like, it's glaringly obvious. But, like, I could give them the roadmap. I can give them exactly what to say. But if it's not, like, getting to the root cause of why they're feeling like this, you know, sometimes it's just, like, super sense. Like, I believe in you. I believe that you can do this point period, the end. Like, and I'm going to check up on you tomorrow to hear how it went. Like, and if you didn't do it, I'm going to not be disappointed. I'm just gonna remind you that, like, you have another crack at it tomorrow. And every day that you wait, like, you're just. You're only taking away from yourself. You're not taking away from me. You might be taking away from them who has, like, an opportunity for you. But, like, so much of what I'm seeing, even with myself or like, all of our clients is, like, it's the mindset thing. Yeah, it's 100% that. And I think we need to, as leaders in this industry, get better at, like, continuing to, like. Like you did. You started room like, this safe space and have this and, like, weaving that throughout the event and then carrying it over. Like, every time. Every time you're seeing, it's like, hey, like, I'm noticing this resistance coming up from you. And I noticed that this resource resistance comes up a lot of times when people don't believe in themselves and don't believe that they add value. And, like, I'm telling you that you do, and I care about you and I believe in you, and, like, you can do this. I'm gonna check on you tomorrow. It's just those, like, simple things that I see, like, such progress of, like, my clients and my team Like, I see it in every mastermind, like in every group, like it's us, like right in here, dude.

I couldn't agree more. It's funny because I've been talking more about mindset and somebody was asking me why I'm into it, and I was thinking I'm gonna play it back because I was having trouble articulating and I'm like. Because even up to like a year or two years ago, I feel like I honestly, a year ago I thought mindset was kind of bullshit because I just didn't understand it. And then I guess it was like realizing how so many people who are so talented trip themselves up or can't get out of their own way or they get in their own way. I don't even know how best to describe it. And it's like not any of their talent, their God given abilities, and purely mindsets, purely between, like, you know, what's going on inside your brain. And like, that was an eye opener for me because I'm like, holy shit. Like, if we can just help people to. Not to. To get past that or to work through that, we can change their lives. I guess more to your point average, it's more effective than I can teach you how to be the best copywriter in the world. You can teach you how to like become sales or affiliate marketing or whatever geniuses. But like, if they can't get out of their own fucking brains, then like, it doesn't matter. So like, that's where it's a more fundamental skill, I guess is like that you do have to. And it's so crazy because it's not. It's hard because you're there, I get it. But it's like the easiest thing is such a high leverage activity. But changing your mindset is the most high leverage thing you can do. It's more high leverage than learning copy or anything else. Because if you change your mindset, like everything else, the doors is open in multitudes. Like every door opens for you. I don't know really. That's fired me up. I'm about to have this on recording.

It's absolutely deceptive how simple it is. And that's what makes it so difficult, is it's so. It's too simple. It's a simple, straightforward thing. I was talking to a copywriter who's on my list and he says, how do you, you know, like, how do you pitch yourself in a way to where you're making, you know, all this money? I told him, I said, I can name a couple Dozen copywriters who can write circles around me, you know, but when I pitch a deal, you know, I'll make a lot more than they do. And what I do is like, I have to find like these little short shortcuts, these little hacks to my own brain. And it's. I know that if I'm selling them copy, I cannot be thinking about copy because if I default to my skill level or what I think my skill level is, then I'm going to start hedging. And so I like have to take it and chuck it out the window. This is not about copy at all, you know, So I go out there and pinch and get the deal or don't get the deal or whatever. And then it's like, once I get paid, it's like, now I can worry about producing, but if I'm going into it worrying about producing. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna talk him out hiring me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really cool. I also think it has a lot to do with like your, how you.

Perceive your own value being good, which.

Is like a huge part. Like, like also, like as a woman, you have all these like, other additional layers. Like I was just talking to someone about this is like a new like coach. It's not like kind of in our industry, but like a, like a spiritual healer, you know, so I'm not one. So I don't know how to price it. But I've spent enough time with her for like, I see the value of her being in my life and like it's, you know, when I heard what her rates were, I was like, astonished. I was like, oh my God, thousand dollars for three months. I literally thought, you're going to be charging five grand a month, like minimum period, point to end.

Like, yeah. Wow.

You know, she's like, well, you're like my target, you know, demo. Like, I can't believe, like, you.

Yeah.

Like, I can't believe the opposite. Like, like, how do you survive? Like, how are you living in this state charging those rages?

Like, I'm really struggling.

Like, yeah, if I have 70 clients.

I'm going to kill myself.

This is a value thing. And I think some of us lean so heavily. Like, oh, we haven't had enough have bats. Right. Like, when I first started selling, I was selling door to door SEO packages in Tucson, Arizona in July. It's hot and I could only afford like a Goodwill blazer that had bird poop on it. I remember scraping it off. I was working for Alona, right? Yeah.

No one knew what the.

It was.

Business stores was knocking on like selling dentists, lawyers, doctors. 75 on package of they didn't know. And Google wasn't like Google was a thing. But like Google was like, not like, you know what I mean, they wouldn't master. Like, they just didn't fucking know. And like half the time they didn't know what was going on. And I was selling $75 a month SEO packages and like no one wanted it. And I didn't pay my rent for two months. Fully destroyed, almost starved to death. And finally when I got it, I got it. I was like, oh my God, I can't sell this. I sell the dream. Unlimited leads here at Dork. Oh, I get it. Looking at the results, like, and then it was like, oh, I'm crushing it. And then it was like, okay, now Amber, our packages are a thousand dollars.

Who the fuck is gonna buy a thousand dollar?

This is crazy. It was like such a different chain. It's the same package, but a thousand dollars now, right? Having the results, we're hitting the first page of Google.

Okay, I feel confident.

And I missed 10,000. By the time I left, it was a hundred thousand dollar minimum package.

Wow.

And I was just like, bam, bam. Just rattle that off. I had like so much confidence. And then coming back and like our two day intensives now are 45, 000.

Yeah.

Right. We're gonna up them again this year to 75. Why it's so worth it. Just one of those. Are all things with the platebook really sell? But I was basically doing that same shit, 90% of it. When I first started like three years ago when I was charging two grand and I paid for my own flight in my own hotel. Like by the end I was negative.

Like literally negative.

And I started charged five. And then alone my partner, she was like, nah. I did the calculation. Every time you wait for the team, this is how much the productivity dips. It's now going to be 45. And I was like, right. Like you just get that huge wave of resistance of like values, improving the value. Like I had just like in a have those things. And then you look at it and you're like, some people just have the balls to ask for it. Yeah, right. And then they figured out how else.

Are you gonna get how to do it right?

And like, yeah, you can't get if you don't ask. But the other part is like, the value is like, do I feel like I'm worthy of asking for this?

Yeah.

Am I worthy of that relationship? Am I worthy of this amount of money. Am I right? And I think that's like, it's all mindset and value. There.

It is.

There are two sides of the same.

Yeah.

Coin. Yeah. Two thoughts come to my mind. One is like, I can relate because. And I've talked about this before, but I sold. I was 149 per sales letter when I started. And then today I quoted somebody like 140,000 for like, basically the same thing that I was doing for 149.

Yeah.

I basically. I don't even know what that. I'm not good at math. I don't know how is that 100 neither million plus. It was like a 2200 word, like proposal that was half sales letter. But even then, like, not giving a. Yeah. I was doing like subheaders and, like, quirky in it. So I'm like, I actually don't care. Like, so, like, blessed because of where my career is. Like, I don't care. I can help this guy dramatically or if I don't get it, it's not like a make or break thing for my entire life goes on.

But it was like, yeah.

And so it was like, knowing that I could bring the value, which I could, because he's like, I'm starting a whole supplement company from scratch and I've got a bunch of money, but I don't know what to do. I'm like, guess what? I've done that a shit ton of times. I know exactly what to do.

And it's also what you'd be excited about. That's the other thing. I like, ask my clients, like, what amount of money would you have to charge to be excited?

Yeah.

To get on the phone and to do this.

That's a good point. Because I would be excited for 40,000.

Are you excited for 129? Yeah. Especially. Yeah.

Yeah. The economy in a shitty place right now. I'm like, that's. Yeah, I'll take that. We can. We can invest it. There's a lot of stuff we can do.

Yeah.

So that's. Yeah, totally. And then the other thing is the door to door, which is interesting because I did door to door. I did for political fundraising campaigns. I did for the dnc. Like, hi, I'm Stefan. And it was about. At the time, it was between Barack Obama and Horry Clinton. This is 2008. And being like, you know, who did you back? Well, you know, I was agnostic, but I got 30 of the money raised, which is super up because it was like, for a DNC so every 100 somebody gave, I got $30 commission in theory. Then they skipped me on my commission. All shady. But, like, I got good money, but it wasn't like. It was like. It was super shady. But even that I remember because I remember going door to door. I remember the first time I was like a doctor and like, I think he was in Hillcrest. It was in San Diego. He's like, you were supposed to ask for more, right? So I asked for like, I don't know, $500. He's like, not gonna give you $500. I was like, okay, but I will give you $200. And I was like.

I can still.

Visualize their fucking living room and a little couch and the wife's bringing like a tea and he's writing the check from the checkbook. And like, this works. And then I did great. And so, yeah, that was like a door to door. And it was most summer hot as. I mean, not as hot as Tucson, but like, it was a heat wave. I actually kind of love that job because I'm like, I'm being paid to like walk around outside, get a tan, like, lose weight, and I just like, talk to people and they give me money like, oh, once I got it first. Same thing, right? Laura, you did door to door solar. I'm gonna circle back on that. But do you ever do door to door jobs or.

No, no, absolutely not.

It was all fun.

Yeah.

Yeah. Which I did phone studio for a for profit college, doing phones and convincing people who shouldn't have gotten for profit degrees to do that.

And I was given a five page phone script that I was only supposed to read. No. No questions. I'm like, okay, here we go.

I think door to door and phone selling are like, so critical.

It's so important.

You get the toughest.

Oh, yeah.

And I remember my first. It was Tony Sweeney Farmer's Insurance on Speed Way Boulevard in Tucson. And I remember her office like it was yesterday because it was the first time I realized, like, I could make money from nothing, from selling an idea. Like, this is cray cray. I was like in a fog. Like, oh, my God. Like, it's crazy. I wonder if she's still working.

I remember mine. It was 5:44pm Everyone else had gone home. I was talking to a guy named Chad Boswick who owns like an H VAC company.

Isn't he like a celebrity guy?

Not this guy.

Different boss.

Not this guy.

Like, he has like the heaviest Louisian accent. He bought like this $10,000, you know, digital marketing Training thing. And he was like, all right. And I'm like taking down his credit card number. And it was the first time I ever pulled that piece of. Of paper out to fill it out. I'm like, where's this stuff going? I'm just like, off. And like my sales manager right there, he's like, you're doing fine. Just, you know, listening in. Like, you have to find us. Write down when we got done. He's all end. He called him tomorrow. He's like, don't hang out on the call. And I was like, all right, well, it was great talking to you. You know, we'll reach out to you tomorrow. He's like, okay. I hung up. And I was just numb. Just like numb. Like tingly numb. Like reality just went.

How much did you get from that sale?

I don't know.

Like, I hope at least a thousand.

Yeah, it was like 1200 bucks.

Nice. He went straight for high ticket. See, that was.

Always have to charge premium. Me, I was like getting 100 bucks for some no bass sounding.

That was 100% gross.

But yeah, that one. I was like, all right, gotta get on the. Get on the phone.

Yeah.

I still ended up thriving at it, of course, with time.

Right.

That was one of the first, like, positions that taught me, like, to keep going back for the sale.

You know what I mean?

Especially there are a lot of jaded business owners, like, just in general. I walk in in like a summer dress and a clipboard. There would be like, get out. Turn around and get the fuck out. But, hey, how you guys doing? Hot today, huh?

How are things?

How'd you like to lower your energy bill today? And eventually it'd be like, all right, tell me.

Come on in.

And then, you know, you just wear them down.

And then. But you felt it was interesting. Cause there's a guilt. Like, I had a guilt with the for profit college stuff.

I did have a little bit of guilt because as far as I know, probably wasn't the best deal for them to change over. Maybe in some cases it was, but.

Yeah, but that sometimes babies gotta eat them. Yeah.

You know, we just redistribute a little.

Bit of that for me. To your point earlier, Jimmy, when you're talking about how you thought, like, sales was one thing and you realized it could be another thing. Yeah, that's how I felt. The for profit college. Because it was like. Like call, you know, minimum 200 calls a day. Like do 300 if you can. You're selling these packages like you're gonna dial her People. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But then, same day too, right? You called them yesterday, they said they weren't interested. And it was like, call them again. Maybe they're interested.

All right?

And then the next day, like, And I get to your point of going back, I do agree, but there's a certain point where someone's like, I keep talking, tell you I'm not interested, and they'll be like, call them again.

You really.

They're not a good.

They don't need it.

You don't need.

They're actually dead.

Like, I keep talking to the Sun. The son's like telling me they're like, call the son and sell the son. I don't know. But there's tough time.

He's like, right now he needs a new career.

And then you get like a little bit older and you're like, oh, sales can be other things. Sales can be actually helping somebody and, like, just being hostile to him and like talking to somebody, providing value and like, exactly. Doing all that. So it was a. That was an interesting experience as well. I still made it work for the for profit college, although I left pretty early on. Just like you, Jimmy. Like, every job was like, they're like, you're doing great. Like, you'll get a promotion in a year. And I'm like, nope, like, not in a year. Bye. And then just like, leave and go on to the next thing and think there's something wrong with me, which there wasn't. I just was unemployable, which Laura pointed out.

Well, I think that's the. The contrast is so important, though, of, like, how shitty that job made you feel.

Totally.

And like, how now we all have very ethical businesses where we're selling good, great products, impacting millions of lives in our own way. Like, it was that contrast.

Yeah.

Because now you know what it's like. I mean, I've sold millions that are the really fucking shitty supplements, right? And then I got sick and I started looking at them. I was like, oh, my God, this is full of gluten fillers, like, and leg. Like, what am I fucking doing? Like, this is terrible.

Right?

And I also, which very few people know, had a job with Ripoff Report, selling them, like, reputation management to people who already on Ripoff Report. I was like, what a count the audience. But I didn't last there very long, like, because I felt shitty. That was one of the best. So good. That is a brilliant 10,000 complaints on there. Like, oh, my God, that reputation management package was.

Brilliant. Right? The Real takeaway is like, I think I'm going to start a new report.

It's totally an opportunity there. We're on the come up.

To be fair, it's really hard to index now on the search engine.

Yeah.

What's the best time to plant a tree?

Yeah, when it was easy. I mean when we were selling SEO packages, we could get on the first page of Google for first by any fucking keyword you can imagine. Attorney New York, attorney Brooklyn, Anything fucking thing you wanted in less than three days, like we were nationally ranked like the number one SEO company in the world. It was outrageous. Like, I think I had a cartel of Indian link builders. I don't know how they were doing.

It, but they were doing it. It didn't matter.

My product with sound and you figure out how to sell it though, like, you know what my technique was in Arizona? It's illegal not to give people water in sometime. Like a thirst in a hot. I am hot. Can I get some water? And they're like, really?

Could not legally, they could not say no to me.

And as soon as I'm in there, watch, wallet chews. I'm oh, like the first. I'm like, oh, who's the boss in here? I wait to see who turns their face, who, who they're looking at number one. That's the ultimate tell. It's like when they swivel. Who are they looking at? Bam. Look at him. Like, watch all his shoes. What we got on. I know.

You figure it out.

Yes.

So when you see what the time.

I'm not so thirsty anymore.

There are, there are, there are some.

But like the bulk of it, it's.

Like there you can see. It's like, is it a Timex or a Rolex? You know, like.

Casio calculator wise.

Unless like being hipsters.

Yeah. Less is like in a cool way. Otherwise it's like, all right, cool.

I'm going to go next door.

Yeah. I'm not as. I'm not as parched as I thought I was.

Oh, man. I'm going to stop recording a second. Does anyone have any amazing words of wisdom to share with people who may potentially ever listen to this? If I put it online, what were.

We supposed to talk about?

Oh, my God.

I feel like that should be last part of that.

What are we doing during the life for the coronavirus? Okay. Because I was talking about it.

Who started it?

Yeah. I mean for me, I think the two things I'm focusing on is my attitude and my effort because they're really the Only two things I can control, like, in this entire situation is like, how I lead my team, how I show up in the industry and like, my effort, my output, not getting like, paralyzed and then focusing on pivoting the things we need to pivot on, like rolling out with some lower ticket things that are like, more beginners. Because I truly feel like I do affiliate marketing if this ends up being heard and like training other people on how to have better affiliate programs. And I really think that we're going to have a boom in this industry if there's a recession, because it's the only thing you don't prepay for on average, right? You're only going to pay your affiliate partners when there's a sale. So I think if we teach them.

How to do that, how to do.

It well, you know, we're going to help build a lot of stability into the companies. And then the other way is rolling out their own offers. We've been pushing a lot of other people's offers for a long time, and like, that's the route we're going to go to is like creating, you know, like a different pivot and just controlling our attitude and our efforts. Like, that's really the only thing that we can do and just like not panicking. Like, that's our approach at least.

It's awesome. Yeah.

Oh, my turn now.

Go ahead, Zoe.

Yeah, yeah. So I don't. Unlike you guys, I don't have a lot of skin in the game, so it's really just continuing to push and promote my own offers. Luckily, the clients I'm working with, there's a lot of them that are in the survival space. So while everyone's stressing out, we're unfortunately too busy counting our money. So. No, it really is. No, it's. I had a short half life in me working with client space. And, you know, quick thing that I learned in the last six months when I broke away from Agora and started working with Orin and realized I wanted to go out on my own, you know, I very much. I'm obsessed with this book called Mastery by Robert Greene. And in that book, one of the rules, or tenets, if you will, is, you know, the easiest way to learn something is to look at what are the experts doing. And I said, okay, well, you know, I'm talented in copy. You know, I'm training to become better. You know, who are the best copywriters in the world right now. And I looked at all of them and I discovered something really interesting. The top copywriters in the world right now. They're not copywriters. You know, as I looked at Stefan, I looked at Justin, I looked at Craig Clemons, and I'm like, they're all business owners. And that was, like, a big shift for me, you know? So I started promoting my own offers. I ran my first offer for the first time ever two months ago, ran it, and I'm, like, looking, like, 10 minutes in, like, no one's buying it. People are looking at it. No one's buying it. Started freaking out, you know, and then at the end of it, had to close the offer down. The page converted at, like, 22%.

Nice.

Yeah, it was like, five grand rolled in, and I was like, huh, Might be, you know, this might work. And so taking. And I learned so much more. Like, as a copywriter, like, oh, my goodness. Learning how an ESP actually works, it's like, oh, this is a disaster. Running my own cart, you know, And I'm, like, learning how shopping carts work. And all of that has helped me in my client work, you know, but even then, it's just like, you know, I need to start working on my own offers.

Cool. Dan's awesome. Yeah. I think for me, it's like thinking about. I'm a copywriter, but I run multiple businesses, as Jimmy kind of just talked about. So it's like, kind of looking at how does each one. What does it look like in a recession? Because it's not just the virus is one thing. The virus will kind of get through, but it's like the recession we may deal with for the next 12 months or two years or whatever it is right now, people are still buying, like, health supplements, and they probably will. If you look at 2008 and 2009, you look at the growth kind of chart of health supplements, which is, like, one of my main markets. It keeps going up. It's not like people stop buying health supplements in 2008 or 2009. In fact, they actually bought, like, more of this than they had previously. But beyond that, I think for me, as a coach and a trainer and a teacher and a mentor, which are all things I do, is recession is a tremendous time for me because I get to, like, help all these people who are not just in our industry, but even people who aren't in our industry who are going to get, like, laid off and go through hardship and things like that, and going back to the whole freelancer journey, and having been to where I was from $149 for saying, to where it's $140,000 now. And like how do you do that journey, how do you take your skills and how do you do it on your own? And so you're more bulletproof. Right. So that you aren't dependent on a job, so you're dependent on a boss, you're not worried about getting laid off. So if you don't get laid off because you have to fire yourself and you don't want to fire yourself because you want to keep making money. And so I think for me a lot of it will come down to like just teaching and training and coaching more. I think I have enough streams of and coaching, not like a one on one coach way, I don't really want to do that, but like coaching others, helping others. And I think we set ourselves up to where we have enough income streams that we'll be okay financially. Right. Where I don't need to make a shit ton of money right away. So I still want to make lots of money during the recession. I like making money, but I think even then I can look at it as an opportunity to be like, I can do things still for long tail benefit or impact and I can use this time to just create all these incredible assets that can benefit the road. And I think we can profit from that during a recession. But also there are things that could benefit people no matter what, no matter if we're in a recession or we're in the booming times or whatever it is. And so part of it is just me looking at this as an opportunity to create a bunch of amazing stuff that can then help people and really like change people's lives.

I love that.

That's awesome. I feel inspired.

It's awesome because that's what we need right now. That's the leadership that we need. And like, you know, I think we talked about it earlier but like a recession is also part of putting us back in balance.

Yeah.

You know, and like if it doesn't need happen, which it feels like it is, like what's going to put us back in balance is like strong leadership and like better products and like deepening our relationship with our clients. Like maybe ask me if we're gonna be okay. Yeah. A big part of why we're going to be okay is we have ClickBank and we have, you know, we have Agora, different subsidiaries. Like we're just going deeper into servicing them better and like being better and like being better leaders and not panicking when this is happening, just knowing like this is an ebb and flow of life and it's really Inspiring to hear you say that because, like, hell yeah, like, that gives me a sense of relief as someone that's like, you're a leader to me and like, you know what I mean? Like, and like a friend, like, that gives me a sense of calm and relief too. So, like, here you take that stand.

That's awesome.

Well, thank you.

And one real quick thing, what Amber said is like, yeah. Cause even in our mastermind, our copyright mastermind, like, really what we've been talking about, Justin and I, is like, okay, how do we provide? How do we service our tribe? How do we provide value to our tribe? How do we do things even better? Is it a recession? Like, okay, so companies are having more issues with revenue. How do we help them to get more revenue? Or freelancers are having trouble with client. How do we help them? So from the perspective of the way that is like a cleansing and a balancing as far as a recession goes, I think if you look at that as like, this is my opportunity to do an even better job, like, you're going to come out in a really good place and that's what you're doing. Amber and I think people fucked. Are the people who don't care about their clients at all and who have been trying to kind of just get by by half asking it the whole time, and now they suddenly have to try to care, but they can't. And they don't have the connections with people and all that.

It's really hard to fake.

It's really hard to fake. Right? And so being like a blessing or looking at the bright side or the positive side is like, this is an opportunity for all of us who are leaders to like you said, to like, really now you see, even step it up and be better leaders. And how. What a tremendous opportunity is that. So fucking cool, right?

So awesome.

And I think what I want to say about that and what I've been thinking about in regards to this coronavirus is like, literally just taking everything you guys have said and like pulling that one more level up. And just this perception of how is this an opportunity for me to step up and serve the world better? How is this happening for me as a verse to like this awful thing that's happening to me and I have to deal with the repercussions and, you know, I'm just fighting against everything as first to how can I kind of move with the flow of everything and better service whoever and in what ways can I become a leader and help other people service others? Because I just feel like there's actually a wealth of opportunity and a wealth of teaching opportunity. Especially in times where things are really bad. Like they need not be bad for the individual in most cases.

Yep.

No, it's awesome.

I love that.

Well, thank you guys for joining this episode of Sitting in the Kitchen Drinking. Michael.

My cousin lacroix, I got another domain to buy. He's just been snapping them up.

All right, that's just about it for today. Before we finish though, let me share a little bit more about how you guys stay in touch with me. I have a private email list where I share high level tricks, strategies and insights about copywriting, entrepreneurship, mindset and more. In fact, often my podcasts are based on topics I first emailed out to my list weeks or even months earlier. So if you want to get brand new stuff from me every single day, go to stefanpaul georgi.com subscribe these emails are often upwards of a thousand words and I send them every day. So make sure you really can commit to engaging with me on that level. But as long as you can, and you should, because I do drop a ton of value in these emails, go apply to join my list today. And again, the web address is stefanpaulgorgi.com subscribe and in case you don't know how to spell my name, which is okay, it is S T E F A N Paul and then my last name is George I G E E o r g I.com so StefanPaul georgi.com forward/subscribe and I will see you in my email list.