DESTROY NEGATIVE Thoughts & Feelings Today For SUCCESS! | Mark Drager

Because not doing anything is a choice and a risk. People think that, okay, I'm here, I'm in my job. Moving to the new job is a risk.

Staying where you are is a risk as well. Now both of them have a risk profile. You can decide whether you're comfortable with that risk or not. But not doing something is just as risky as doing something.

Welcome to Stuck to Unstoppable, where we interview the world's first foremost thought leaders to break things down in order to help you get past your hurts, habits and hangups and finally level up and move forward. I'm your host, Stephen Scoggins. Now let's go ahead and get into today's guest and our featured conversation. You're not going to want to miss it. Our special guest today is none other than Mark Drager, who's a highly sought after speaker, entrepreneur, marketing genius, founder of Phantom Media, which is a world class organization, not to mention a world class podcaster. Known of we do hard things. As a loving husband and father, Mark has dedicated his life to overcoming self doubt, fear, and moving people from the ordinary to the extraordinary, where he teaches from experience, passion, and a sincere heart to help others overcome the very same challenges he did. Guys, help me welcome Mark Drager. Dude, what's going on, man? How are you doing?

I am so happy to see you. I have to say that when I saw this in my calendar, I was like, I get the chance to talk to you today.

What? This is amazing. I love it.

Thank you.

Well, now you know how I feel when I'm getting to talk to you guys. So, you know, it's all good.

Love all around, dude.

I have to, I have to. I know. I'm going to talk about this a little bit later on because everybody needs to know about it for sure. But I have to tell you, I'm loving the podcast. We do hard things, man. I'm telling you, it's become one of my fast favorites. I'm one of those five star ranking guys in there. So you can read my comment in there. So just so you know, I'm loving what you're doing, dude.

I love it. Thank you. And you know what, what a, what a fun opportunity for me. I mean, I've. I've been podcasting for a long time now. I guess maybe I started in 2015 or something. But with this new, with this new podcast that we're doing and that you've been nice enough to be on as well, I am learning so much from the people that I have on and I can Honestly tell you that your converse, like each conversation is very, very impactful to me. But the conversation you and I had, especially after we stopped recording, we spoke for like another 45 minutes.

I'm in a totally different place now than when I was even when we spoke, whatever that was five weeks ago.

You'Re officially on a testimonial real in the near future.

You changed my life, man.

Are you serious? Well, thank you for that. No, I'm trying. You know, it's funny, I was joking around with my son, who I had the pleasure of introducing you to for a minute ago, and my wife's favorite things, to walk around the house going, hi, I'm Steven Scott Guns. Welcome to the journey Principles. Like, she like struts around the house and says that. I'm like, I don't even sound like that anymore. Come on, give me a break. So to know it's making an impact is obviously a huge deal for me. So I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing.

Well, thank you. So what are we up to today, man?

Well, first of all, I think everybody needs to get to know you. Right? Because part of the conversation you and I had both on and off air last time was just getting really to know each other and we found out we had so much in common and so many things that we had faced and overcome and stuff like that. So if you don't mind, just give me like a 30,000 foot view of the origin story about how you got to where you are and all that good stuff.

Yeah. So, I mean.

What a place to start. So growing up, my mom remarried when I was seven. What I didn't know at the time, what she didn't know at the time was that my stepfather.

Had the manic side of bipolar. She didn't know that it was well hidden. And so I grew up in a home that was just really, really unstable. I've come to learn just in terms of the types of things we did, you know, lots of, lots of anger, lots of manic moments, lots of alcoholism. And then like just the bizarre things that I didn't realize weren't normal. You know, like when I was in grade seven, we moved out of the city. I grew up in Toronto, moved out of the city, we bought 90 acres and we hand built a log stack home. So, you know, we spent a year and a half, like, literally, like I'm graded, like I'm. I can remember like three scoops of lime, you know, eight scoops of mortar, half of a gallon, like of water, like just mix in mortar and stuff like that. And so I grew up in this, in this weird kind of home where it was one. You know, I grew up in a construction family. So there's this like, you just, you just do anything, you know, like, like all this stuff behind me and everything. Like it's just like on the weekend I added a shelf, right? It's all, it's all simple stuff. But you know, I grew up in this family. Whereas this mix of, of you can, you can do things if you just work and attack and ask questions and like, you know, I was telling your son, push all the buttons, right? Like, you know, like if there's a button to push, I want to push that button to see what it does, right? Like, and you know, and so, so just get there, get dirty. And this weird kind of pressure cooker because it was in a kind of an abusive environment. And my grandfather who, who you know, moved to this country in 1950 running a construction and development company was very, very successful. So like just this weird mix of white upper middle class people showing me that you can do anything with extreme pressure to behave and perform and to try and hide and not get into trouble with just, just this can do attitude. And so, so I went to film school and I wanted to be an engineer and an architect, but. But it seemed too hard. I got scared. I went to film school instead. After that I started working in a corporate environment. I started working in video production. I started my own agency when I was 23 and then kind of from 2006, when I was 23 to now, I've just been doing what I'm doing now. So that's the life story.

Oh my gosh, dude, I love it. Well, you know, I always like to start with the origin story because, you know, I think far too often we've talked about this before. There's. People are beginning to wake up in that they want to connect with people that have really been where they're currently at. You know, it's. We're moving out of the days where we're, we're trying to, we're quasi worshiping our celebrity idols who are, you know, all put together and never do anything wrong until like, you know, some kind of massive moment happens. And we're, I find that we're trending towards the directions of, you know, this, this guide mentality versus a guru mentality. And I find that that is something that you're doing very well with everybody you've been helping. You know, you come from a very sincere place. You know, you and I both share this passion of like, serving the person we used to be in kind of scenario, which means we have to look at the crap we used to face, right, and kind of overcome and whatnot. And, you know, one of the things that I find that I find you are just uniquely gifted at is this essence of overcoming self doubt. Continually talk to me a little bit about self doubt, kind of how it kind of got started in your life. But more than anything else, how can someone else begin to kind of overcome that in their life?

Yeah, you know, what a great question. So I didn't even realize that. So I have this very strange makeup of being extremely optimistic and believing that anything is possible for others, and yet for myself, living in a place of the exact opposite, that I'm not good enough, that I can't do it, that it'll never happen, that even no matter how many times in the past I've proven to myself, you know, that I'm capable of certain things that I can't grow, that just. I don't have what it takes. I went to a Tony Robbins event with our mutual friend Evan Carmichael a few years ago, and I literally remember writing my book. Mark just doesn't have it right. And so we're trying to work on limiting self beliefs at the time. It makes me. Oh, I'm getting goosebumps even just saying that out loud because I hope that's not the case. I hope I can develop whatever that version of it is. But it's this really weird thing where if you come to me and you say, hey, here's my roadblocks, here's my problems, it's super clear to me the path you should take. It's super clear to me what you're lying to yourself about and where the BS is and how you can do it and how you can grow and how you can scale and here are the steps you can take, take, and I believe fully that you can do it and that I can help you do it for myself, the exact opposite. And so I just emailed Evan this morning actually saying like, hey, this is this weird thing that I need to.

Dig deeper into because I have this ability to say, you know, I understand when you wake up and you just go, well, what's the point? Or when I drive, used to, you know, I remember this time I drove home from work and I sat in my driveway and I thought, I don't want to walk into my house. What's, you know, like, what's the point? What's the point of any of this stuff that we're doing. And so I just, I have this cynical side, this doubtful side. And so to answer your question, though, what, what I take comfort in is knowing that everyone doubts themselves. Yeah. Because, you know, listening to the most successful entrepreneurs who grow, you know, who grow the business, who make it happen, and then they're ready to face the next adventure and they go, maybe I got lucky. Maybe it wasn't me. Maybe it was timing. Can I do it again? I don't know if I can do it again. And no matter how much bravado people share, deep down, deep down, they have those moments. I've, I've heard Academy Award winning actresses talk about, you know, 30 years experience of one, Academy Awards. They walk onto set and they just go, I don't know if I can do this anymore. I may have lost it. Or I've heard other people who were alcoholics who said the only way I was able to perform was when I was drunk. And then the day that I was sober, I walked into whatever the field, the profession, whatever it is, and just thought, I don't think I can do this. And so to me, the doubt and the fear and you know, the doubt that we have in our head, the little voice, the little look that someone gives you, the questioning, it just keeps us stuck, it keeps us standing still.

And.

That just, it bothers me so much. I just. There has to be an answer to these things. Right?

For sure. Well, you know, it's funny because I wrote down two things as you were talking. Number one is the things we tell ourselves. Most of us, I don't feel. And this is you and I just brainstorm. People are going to get behind the scenes access of. You and I just talk and shop. Right? The things that we tell ourselves. I find that people like to believe all the negative things about themselves and they, and they're constantly telling themselves those things and they completely. I'm one and I'm, I'm one of these people. I have been one of these people at times, definitely where somebody will go and say, like, hey, you're doing all this, right? And I'll be like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I'll focus on all the garbage, like all the reason why I shouldn't measure up. You know. The other thing I wrote down is imposter syndrome. Right. I can tell you that, you know, I mean, you know, part of my story, you know, kind of how I started my first company and then kind of where I'm at today and, you know, having to restart again Kind of midway through with an executive change. And I can tell you, I remember asking myself, honestly, did I get lucky the first time?

Did they really have such a significant impact that now that they're not here, now they're not part of my organization, that everything is going to crumble? And then I kind of took some lessons from you and I just began to like, talk to myself in the mirror, you know, it's like, you know what, no matter what it is, you can learn anything if you just apply yourself to it, you know. But this imposter scenario that I think we all face is something that I find that is.

Well, it's not unique. It's everybody, you know, we're constantly comparing ourselves and things of that nature. And all the coaching that you're doing. Is there one or two techniques or one or two, like things that you would recommend anyone who's in that place, that self deprecating doubt phase where I am the imposter, I feel like I'm not going to measure up or I feel like, you know, so this life was meant for so and so, but not meant for me. Is there one or two things that you go to that you've used personally to combat those feelings and then kind of excel?

Yeah. Yeah. So the things that you tell yourself are really important. The reason why the podcast that I had you on that I host called We Do Hard Things is because I need to remind myself that and tell myself that. And we've kind of made it a family motto at this point. You know, we, my daughter, we were. My son's birthday back in September, I think it was, or. And all our kids were doing tree. Treetop trekking. You know, you go up in a tree, you strap in. And so my 6 year old daughter, who is a little bit on the timid side, I guess, you know, she's up 30ft in the air and she's shaking and I say, jordan, are you okay? And she goes, she goes, yeah, yeah, I'm a dragger. I do hard things. And it was like this moment of pride because she just said it in passing and I was just like, yeah, girl, you, you are a Draeger and you do hard things. So, you know, that fires me up. You know, the yesterday I'm working out and I'm struggling and I go, I'm building strength, you know, like, like, I know this is hard, but I'm building strength and I want to be strong and I want to be extraordinary. And so, so I'm building strength right now. So, so those Moments juxtaposed against. I can remember.

Sunday in May, two years ago, where I was working on my bathroom, renovating, listening to some music, and there's a line in this one song that says, I'm such an effing loser. And for some reason, I picked up on that. And I was just. I could watch myself spend three or four hours seeping into depression because I could not get that. That line out of my head, you know, that just that I'm such an effing loser. I'm such an effing loser. And. And it's just like, I know now why am I telling myself that? Like, no, like, don't. Don't listen to that stuff. Don't say that stuff. So for me, it starts with.

As weird or as hoo hoo as it is. It's just like, what are you telling yourself then? What are you listening to? So, you know, two years ago, I cut out all news.

I don't listen to the news. I get a little bit of news through Instagram because I follow a few people. I get a little bit of news through people just saying, hey, did you hear that thing that happened two weeks ago? And I'm like, I didn't. But guess what? The world goes on. So I stopped listening to the news. I made a really conscious choice of. And part of what I've done just last week even, was deciding who is on Team Mark. You know, like.

The people in my life are on my team.

And so my wife. My wife is on Team Drager, is on Team Mark. She does something to help me be a better version of me. But I haven't been deciding very actively who's on Team Mark. It's been more, you know, well, you know, they're a client or they're a friend or. No, no, no, I'm going to decide. Like last week, I decided who's in and who's out. And some people didn't make the cut.

But. But more than anything, just for talking, I made it.

You've made the cut, my friend. There you go.

Here you are.

You're on Team Drager. But really, to answer the core of your question, watch what you say and watch who you listen to and watch who's in your life. But I don't think people are asking themselves the right questions. And so for me, with the way my brain works with what works for me is asking, you know, like, just what do you want? Why do you want it? Who has it? What did they do to get it? Are you willing to do what they did to get the same thing right. And just like some. It doesn't have to be those questions. It can be any question. But just. But just for me and for the people that I'm speaking to or that I'm working with, it's just asking just a series of any questions or even just writing down in a journal, like, what made me happy today, like.

The question was. Reveals the answer in the pursuit of the answer.

And it's.

And it. To me, it's like just. Just asking questions and then pursuing those answers with conviction and with curiosity. That's where I have my real breakthroughs. That's where. That's where I start to look at that and go, oh, that's not real. That's just a lie I've been telling myself. You know, and so those are the three areas that I focus on.

I love it. So I wrote down, see, this is why I love talking to you. You spark thought in my brain. I love it. Your brain reinforces the questions you ask it.

And then there's a healthy responsibility in being creatively curious.

Repeat that one.

There's a healthy responsibility in being creatively curious.

I like that.

Love it.

See, this is what I actually like, because one of the greatest fears that I have and that almost everyone has, doing what we do. I know that you shared with me that you didn't ever want be seen as a guru. Yeah, Mine is. I really like. My one word is extraordinary. I want to be extraordinary. So the thought of doing what other people do, the thought of, you know, whether I'm better at it or not, just having someone in the same space as me makes me feel like, oh, someone's already done that. You know, someone's doing it better. What's the point? And so what I love about this kind of stuff, though, is like, I. You and I are both saying the same things. And I would never have strung those words together that order to arrive at that.

Connor tells me I talk in fortune cookie. So.

Okay.

That, you know.

So I know. I know that you have. You have a deep connection and a background in the church. My pastor, you know, I called him a spiritual entrepreneur. But that man, words. And he will string together these sentences, and he just takes such delight in, like. In, like making a point through words. Me, I don't know if you noticed, I index. Like, I will. I can never get to the specific point or that specific one line. So I'll just talk around it until hopefully, you know what I'm saying.

Well, that's why we make a Great team. Right?

There you go.

Well, look, you know, there's another subject matter I want to talk about a little bit, and I think. And one reason we'll talk about is because it comes up all the time. It comes up in our relationships, our, you know, our romantic relationships, our friendships. It comes up in. When we're seeking purpose and direction and clarity and focus. And that's the subject of fear, right? Fear. You know, you have the whole false evidence of the things appearing real. You have, gosh, all kinds of analogies that fear is. Right. How would you define fear? And then what have you been doing to help others overcome it?

That's interesting. I've never been asked that. So I don't. I'll render this out in real time. But my first thought is that fear is the thing that stops you from doing the things that you know that you need to do. And so right there. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's my. I know that the answer is, like, you can't stop fear. You just do it anyway. But. But fear is the thing that stops you from doing the things that you know you need to do, right?

Yeah.

Let's go through, like, just goal setting 101. And I suck. I suck at setting goals because I struggle with relevancy for smart goals or timing or things like that. But mostly, you know, I started working with a therapist a few weeks ago or whatever it was, and we were having conversation about this. And mostly it's like, what bothers me is I know what I need to do. I know that I want this, and I know that I just have to do these steps. And yet when the time comes, I don't do it. And I. And I can watch myself not doing it. Like, I can watch myself saying, oh, I should really jump on, you know, this project or developing this new system in my company or. Or making the decision to make an investment in something. And then I'll put it off, and I'll put it off, and I'll put.

It off, and I'll put it off.

And then. And then it just never happens. And I, you know, it's so really. It's coming to terms with whether the fear, you know, whether the fear is real or perceived.

For me, I don't. You know, I know people suggest, like, what's the worst thing that can happen? I'm pretty good at coming up with what's the worst thing that can happen? So me spending any time in, like, come on, what's the worst thing that can happen? And how likely Is that. That actually just sends me the wrong direction. So for me, it's like, how do we look at. Because not doing anything is a choice and a risk. People think that, that, okay, I'm. I'm here, I'm in my job. Moving to the new job is a risk.

Staying where you are is a risk as well. Now both of them have a risk profile. You can decide whether you're comfortable with that risk or not. But not doing something is just as risky as doing something. And so for me, going. And you know, it's going great, I am have fear. I am afraid.

What is the bigger risk to the thing that I want, doing it or not doing it. And there are certain areas of my life where I can do this and rhyme it off really, really well. And there's ways that I can help build structures or frameworks to help others do it. And then there's other areas where we just know it and we're not going to do it anyway. We know we're going to. I want to lose weight. Change your diet. You're not going to lose very much weight, right? And it's like, oh, I know that I'm going to change my diet in a few days. I do. In a few days. I don't this and that. So you got to dig into, like, why, what are you afraid of? Are you afraid that you will commit for that amount of time and you won't see results? Are you afraid that you're just not strong enough to live without the brownies? Are you afraid that if you don't have this comfort food, you'll just never have those little moments of bliss or happiness because the rest of your life, disappointing or drag on you. That's the stuff.

Love it. Dude, I love talking to you. It's always so much fun.

You know, I had this. This word. You know, you ever seen those word picture blocks? You know, where you have. There's a word in the center and there's a bunch of little words that spin off of that one word. So this. This image has popped in my head as you were talking. And I had the word ordinary on one side. I had extraordinary right here. And smack dab in the middle, I saw the words fear and sacrifice stacked on top of one another.

And I don't know, man, I find, you know, a lot of the people that obviously we work with and even share that we work with combined, one of the things that I. That I see them doing more than not is not taking true ownership or true authority over their decisions. And Their actions, you know, they do, they say, I want to lose weight, but then they don't hit the gym. I want to have a million dollars. Well, then they go and spend every dollar they've got. Right? Those are polar opposites. You can't do this to get this. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm learning more and more and more and more of that. That decision that's made here that kind of affects both sides has more to do with the level of insecurity that you feel. Right. Do you feel like it's actually worth it to go from here to here? You know, do you feel like you're worth it? Right. I remember the first time that, you know, my net income tripped over a million bucks. I remember asking myself, what did I do to deserve this? Right. I completely blew past all the sacrifice, all the prayers, all the tears, all the fighting, all the grinding, all the 18 hour days and all the stuff. And it took some time for people around me to say, no.

This is the evidence of the work that was put forth. Like this is.

Yeah, it's the harvest, right?

Yeah, it's the harvest. So when I was, when I was listening to you talk, one of the things that I heard you say, obviously, was, you know, that I kind of had this word image of the fear being in the middle. And then.

If I'm, if I'm using your terminology. So your, your, your word is extraordinary or extraordinary, depending how you want to pronounce it. Right?

Yeah.

Mine's unstoppable. Right? That's. That's my word. Okay. Both of those require a price to be paid. And I find that most people are paying the wrong price.

They're investing in the worry bucket rather than the hope bucket. Right. As you began to look at your own life and I mean, you've had tremendous business success. You're like me. You're a bootstrap entrepreneur. You fought your way tooth and nail to get to where you are and everything you've been through. And I know that I at times have undervalued that, you know, so I assume that my brother over there sitting on the other side of the screen has probably also been through that. So let's pivot just slightly because we kind of spent a little bit of time talking about life. Let's talk about early entrepreneurship and how all these things tie together. So how do you think an ordinary life, fear, sacrifice, extraordinary things of that nature, play into talking to our entrepreneur buddies, right? There are people who are, as Connor would say, wantrepreneurs so the guys who have a dream, they have a vision, but they haven't gotten started. Then you got the entrepreneur, which is pretty much anybody that's actually taking action to get started, regardless of what dollar figure is behind it. What can we learn from the entrepreneurial journey as far as how it actually ties to us as people?

That's a great question. So, I mean, for the entrepreneur, I mean, I don't like that term. I know that I don't like it either. But like, me and people like you use that term. And I think there's a lot of judgment around it because I can tell you that I found these documents four years before I started my company, a folder full of different business ideas. Do I want to be a realtor and go into real estate? Do I want to start a wedding company? Like, I just, just ideas. And so was I faking it because I wasn't ready to quit my job and borrow $30,000 and start a company? I don't think so. I just don't know if I was ready yet. And I can also tell you that for the first bunch of years in my company, when I started in 2006, and then I would say maybe for a three or four year window in like 15, 16 and 17, I was just as much a wantrepreneur because I was sure, yeah, you know, multimillion dollar organization, great. You know, could take my family. You know, we took an entire May off once and went down to Florida and we spent the entire, like, cool. But it doesn't hide the dysfunction within the organization. It doesn't hide that, you know, one year we might have a break even year we're not growing or that I'm not being the manager or the leader. I want to be like entrepreneurship is, you know, today is when I started. When you started, we weren't entrepreneurs, we were business owners. Like, I was a business owner until maybe three years ago when suddenly I got renamed an entrepreneur because I owned a business. So first of all, if you're just getting started, if you're starting and struggling, the first thing is recognizing that you have to be patient. So that's first. It's. You have to sacrifice. You know, you mentioned about sacrifice earlier. I think a lot of us think it's a discipline game.

Anything.

This is not a discipline game. This is a sacrifice game. You know, I quit my $45,000 a year job. Now I live in Toronto. You know, you cannot, like, for example, you can't get a detached home anywhere in the city. Of Toronto for less than like 1.2 million.

Yeah.

So a very expensive area. You know, most people are probably earning six figures and above just to live there, earning $45,000 a year household income, living in a rental apartment. My baby daughter is a week old. My wife has no income. And I decided I'm going to quit my job to start my company. The first year, we made 18 grand. We made so little money that the government put us on child, like, on welfare, basically, because they're like, hey, how can your family survive off this?

I was the lowest paid employee in my company for the first five years. So even four years in, I was still only earning 45 grand. I worked my way up to what I was earning at the previous company. So first of all, sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.

And it's worth it if you know what you want to build. It's worth it if you know what you're working for in the future. And so that's the first thing I would say. This idea of two or three years in saying, I think should be making more money, I don't. I deserve this time off. Don't you know, I'm the owner of the company. Why am I giving my staff more money? You are. You are building and investing your asset, your skill set, your future, your legacy, your family. Wealth will be generated out of this company. Like everything will be generated out of this thing that you're building. And so why not spend 3, 4, 5, 6 years working your butt off so that way you can have decades of foundation in the future. And then the other thing, other than the sacrifice and the patience, of course, is just recognizing that the thing that comes naturally to you does not come naturally to anyone else. So do not undervalue it. Yeah, it took me a very long time to realize that the things that I'm good at, not everyone else is good at. Like, things came so easily to me that it seemed obvious that it should be easy to everyone else. And why would anyone pay for this when it just comes so easily? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. The thing that comes easily and naturally to you is a huge value to someone else. Do not undervalue it just because it happens to be in your wheelhouse or the gift that you've been given from God. Value it. Build everything around that skill set and know that that, again, just because it's natural or like breathing to you doesn't mean that it in any way doesn't come naturally to anyone else. And that is what you build companies off of. That's what you. That's what you. That's what you, you know, 15, 20, 30 years into career, that's what you're digging deeper and deeper and deeper into is just getting rid of all the crap and going, oh, I'm really good at this one thing. I'm going to spend all my time getting amazing at this one thing. But when you're starting, you just, you just don't realize just, just this, this, this powerful potential that you're sitting on.

Yeah, I'm glad you spent some time there and parked there for a minute because I find that, you know, I have a lot of young entrepreneurs that, that like to ask a lot of questions and stuff like that, and sometimes I feel like I'm letting them down because they want, what they want to hear is, you know, how to be like Gary or how to be like this guy or this guy or this guy. And they don't realize that even Gary. We used to sell wine back in the day, and he wasn't, you know, he was getting scrappy. And, you know, so much of becoming successful in life is about being scrappy. Right. You know, success can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, there's, there's different sacrifices to be paid for different levels, of course, you know, but. And one of the things that I've been seeing a lot of recently is this. Well, I have the title entrepreneur because I started my thing, and if I'm not making a million dollars or $2 million within year, 1 or 2, then I'm a failure. Not realizing that, like you, man, I spent probably the first five or six years in business barely scraping by because every single dollar I made, I used to pay off old debt or reinvest in the business, right? And I had a. And it was a price to be paid. And, you know, it's now 22 years in, right. And I'm able to do things that a lot of people would aspire for, right? Things that I'm very grateful for, that I'm able to enjoy, things I'm able to share with my family and things of that nature, you know, But I think people under, especially entrepreneurs, early entrepreneurs, especially. I'm glad that you brought up the whole subject of I should be X, I should be X by X. Not realizing that so many times the business can outgrow you. So if your business isn't growing, you're not getting the advancement you think you should be X, Y and Z, then really what we should be doing is saying, okay, where Am I struggling as a leader? Like, how am I struggling? And maybe for me, dude, it took me, I kid you not, 15 years before I could actually read a financial statement properly. For the life of me, I could not understand the difference between cash and accrual. I'm like, wait a minute, how things says I have $3 million.

I just gave you a little judgment.

Sorry.

I just gave you some judgment.

How can I have $3 million in quote profit, but I only have a million bucks in the bank? I don't understand that. Well, we got depreciation, we've got forecasted earnings. I'm like, huh, that's so interesting because.

I've always run my business 100% off cash flow. I don't really care about the balance sheet. I very rarely look at the P and literally the only thing I care about is cash flow.

Well, I used to do that until the government made me not do it that way. So once you hit a certain revit or certain top line revenue amount, they force you in their accrual, which doesn't make sense.

We're in Canada, we legally, we're not allowed to do cash based accounting. We have to do accrual based accounting. Just month by month, we have to do it. So I let my controller do accrual. I let, I let everyone. I'm just saying the only thing I care about is how much cash do we have in the bank and what's our Runway and what can we cover? Like that's the only thing that matters to me.

Burn rate, stuff like that. Yeah, for sure. Well, like I said, this stuff took time, right? Because I was the guy with the tool belt early on. I was the guy, you know, even with journey principles, man, I've, I'm the guy that paid for the camera. I bought the computers, I bought the light, I bought the live event facility. I see all of it as an investment to change lives. All of it. I know what some of my biggest challenges were in becoming a better leader and becoming a leader that I refer to as a leader worth following. So many of us, especially early on, entrepreneur wise, so many of us lead out of title. I own it, I sign your checks, shut up and do what I say kind of thing. Not realizing we're going to our closet and be like, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what I'm doing right. Kind of deal. What are some of the, you know, two or three things that, and you can break them down however you want. Two or three big roadblocks that you've had to do in not just creating a business, but becoming the kind of leader that I think that I'm proud to call you myself. Like, what do you. What do you think that some of those things are? Or actually, you know, what they are, but what have you kind of struggled with the most?

So.

Aside from the. The what we just talked about, which is the I shouldn't and I still bump into that, you know, the other day I spent six hours working on a client's project, and halfway through I thought, why the hell am I. Why am I doing this? Right? Like, I'm the. Like I'm the owner of the company. I should. Why does this on my show. And I wasted so much time being pissed off about why I'm doing this, rather than just going, like, I need to do this. This is something that needs to happen. And if anything, I should be using this as fuel to ensure that we build the team, the system, so I don't have to do this in the future. Right? So that should have really catches me a lot because I fluctuate between hardcore, scrappy, let's make it happen to, you know, I'm tired and of hardcore and scrappy. Why? Why, why isn't it? Why isn't it? Why isn't it? And so I really can't state how much trouble people get into with that.

And then, you know, the other things that really played into me is me not really understanding how poor of a leader I actually am. So I started my company in 2006, and it was really only about two years ago that I realized, oh, um, I'm a really bad people manager. Like, like exceptionally bad at this because I thought I was. I. I knew that I had issues with staff members and like, I had this core team of people where. Where, you know, I had this core team of 10 people who'd been with me for like five years, six years, seven years, eight years, nine years, and the system worked and the team worked and the company worked. But then all of these people, you know, in groups of fours and fives and eights or whatnot, coming in and then lasting six months and leaving, coming in and leaving. And so it's like, how can we have this core team of people who are. Who have been with me forever, who are so good and just the company's running, and yet everyone outside of this core group just can't seem to fit in or go. And I realized that it was me. I happened to get lucky putting together this group of people who would put up with me and who would stay in the company and who'd run the company despite how bad I am. And everyone else I was trying to bring in were like, who the hell are these guys? Like, this guy is a terrible manager. And like. And so I burned through, I don't know, about 35 people, like, just like over years, just no one would fit. So realizing that I'm bad at it. But you may be an amazing people manager or not, but here's the thing. There's going to come a day and it's going to feel like a punch to the gut. It's going to feel like a slap in the face when your eyes are awoken to the fact that this thing that you thought didn't matter really matters, or this thing that you thought you were good at, you're actually really bad at. And so I don't care what you're bad at, and I don't care how deep into your career you find out you're bad at it. Most people will not face it, will argue about it. Most people will not do anything about it, or they'll just slip into a more kind of hopeless, depressive state. And when I say, two years ago I found out that I'm really bad at this, I argued about it, I said, no, that can't be. I realized, oh, this can be. I didn't know how to fix it. And then I slipped into a depressive state of like, well, you know, if I'm a bad, if I'm a bad people manager or a bad people leader, and I'm the CEO of a company.

Every CEO I look at, every entrepreneur I look at, every founder I look at says, the most important thing you need is the people. And if I, if that's the thing that I'm worst at, how could I possibly make this thing succeed?

Right?

And so what you do in the moment where you get slapped in the face, where you get punched in the gut, where you realize you thought you were good at it and you're not, or you thought it wasn't important, and it is important what you do in that time, the most important thing. So is this an opportunity to learn a hard lesson? Is this an opportunity to grow? Is this something that was so painful that it's almost delicious? Because you'll say, I never want to be here again. I never want to be embarrassed like that again. So I'm going to do anything to be able to get myself out of it or fix it and give yourself the time and not get impatient and not say, this should be a lot quicker, it should be this way, it should be that way and all those things.

Love it, man. You know, I've got. Every time you like, I've got. So I took down so many notes.

So the first thing I just want to share with you. So my kick in the gut or punch in the teeth or whatever was 2011, at that time, my first company, we were grossing, I don't know, call it 15, 15, 18 million top line revenue and doing quite well. We had probably the best reputation in the marketplace we'd ever had. We were hiring people left and right. And of course I'm in that mentality, the homeless high school dropout kind of mentality because of my stuff and trying to lead probably over driving folks to a degree and stuff like that. And then I had an opportunity to go to a live event called Entree Leadership with the Ramsey organization. And it was 2011, San Antonio, Texas. My first marriage was basically all but done. And I flew out there and I'll never forget this because I had. I was faced with the choice that you just talked about and I was sitting in the audience and day one I felt like I got my ever loving teeth kicked in. Like this is what a leader is supposed to be. Are you doing this? I was like, no, you're not a leader. You know, kind of thing, you know, in typical day fashion and stuff like that. And that proceeded throughout the course of the entire day. And I was faced with that choice about well, what do I do? And here's what I discovered and I jotted this down while you're talking and is the very thing that you get the most defensive about is the very thing that needs the most work?

Yes.

And I know that was so true for me, dude. Because people would try to give me advice from their perspective and I absolutely refused to listen because I was so immature and who I was as a leader and a business owner that I simply did not want to listen to them because I didn't want them to know that I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I was basically making up as I went along, even though, you know, I was doing my best, right? My best given at that moment, I was so insecure and so scared that they were going to find out that I didn't have all the answers. I didn't know what to do, you know. And one of the things that I've used as a technique now is if I feel myself getting defensive and I. And I can feel it like sensation, like my Kids recently came to me probably a week ago, maybe a week and a half ago, And I was. I like the game. Every now and again, when my wife's, like, doing her thing, I'll pull out Assassin's Creed and go to town, right? So going some Assassin's Creed. And my boys just happened to be behind me, and they started talking. They're like, hey, we want to talk. I'm like, okay, well, you know, keep talking, right? You know, whatever. And they said, do you realize my youngest son was speaking up for the oldest son? Which is kind of interesting. He does that on a regular basis. But he was like, hey, you know, my oldest son is Tyler. So Tyler, he goes, do you realize, Tyler, you came in the other day, Tyler, tried to actually have a conversation with you. You answered the question with, like, a statement, and then walked out the door to go do whatever you were going to do, right? Now, here's my oldest son, who's getting ready to turn 20, and my youngest son, who's just turned 19. We're getting ready to turn 19 officially. And both of them were saying, hey, we just want to connect, right? And I'm like, I wanted to say, well, if you guys would just get off your stupid machines and you want to do all this other stuff. Like, I wanted to get, like, super defensive about it. And I could feel that, like, weight in my chest, right? It was, like, doing that whole shaky thing. Like, I had to respond.

And I was faced with that choice, like, the choice that you just mentioned. And I think I basically finished slashing the guy that I was killing, right? And the assassination I just did and shut the machine off. And we ended up talking for, gosh, almost two and a half hours. And we talked about everything from faith to girls to life to directions.

Their mother, my wife, who's got some illness struggles that she struggles with from time to time, and just, we covered a lot of ground. And honestly, it was one of my most favorite nights that I've had recently, you know?

You know, so interesting. I had this experience last night with my son.

I would just say, you know, we need to spend more time looking up. I think everybody needs to spend more time looking up. I was cooking dinner last night. You know, my youngest. I have four kids. My youngest is in competitive dance in the living room on zoom. And every 15 minutes, I have to change Zoom rooms. So she's coming to me. You know, my wife is out with our puppy and our oldest daughter on puppy training. I'm cooking dinner, and I have. I've learned I have really, really bad generalized anxiety disorder gadget that's, you know, from the therapy I've learned. So I'm getting all amped up and anxious, and I'm asking my son to take out the garbage. He's 12, and, you know, I'm coaching him through it because he's kind of complaining. And I was like, you know, like, Jonah, every. Every time you respond to something, it kind of sounds like a complaint, like. Like, you know, rather than just kind of getting on with it. Anyway, so we're having this conversation. I'm trying to use a coaching moment, but I'm cooking and my head's down, and I realize when I look up, he's sitting on the floor crying. And I'm like. And I saw, what's the matter? And he's just like, I don't know. And I realized, like, just as I'm busy living life, this is why I need to work on becoming a better people leader. Because I do this with my team as well. I do this with my spouse, friends, and everything. I'm doing exactly what you're doing, right? Like, they ask a question, I answer the question. I'm doing my thing, right? Like, I'm cooking dinner. I'm doing this. I'm the most amazing dad ever.

Like, the feedback that I gave to my son in this coaching moment or whatever, because it was the third thing I was thinking about. I didn't realize that I was just sucking the wind out of his sails, that he was taking it really personally and really hardly. And he's now sitting on the floor crying. Right? And.

I mean. Yeah. I mean, we just. We need to. We need to lift our eyes up. We need to stop what we're doing. We need to take a moment for our team. We need to. We need to. I need to figure out how to be more approachable. That's something that I've been told by many, many people for many years. They're always like, when I first met you, I was really intimidated. Really, you're intimidated by me? I'm the most. I'm the most approachable, easygoing. Apparently I'm not so that a lot myself.

Yeah.

So lift our eyes up, take a moment, connect. And so I know all I can remember, all the things I want to get better at, but. But this is certainly one of them.

Love it, dude. You know, I had another. Another image in my head that popped up. I know we're over on time, so I'll let you out here in a second. But the. I play so I Love ice hockey. I used to. I used to play. Not competitive.

Yeah. So I'm Canadian, so you could just say hockey. You don't have to.

You don't have to say ice hockey up here. Believe it or not, I actually had someone on the show recently that was in Canada. Born in Canada, lived in Canada, did not even watch.

I don't watch hockey either.

Well, I mean, they didn't do anything in hockey, so I can't predispose that.

You know, I played hockey from the age of three to the age of seven, but other than that, again, we could just say hockey. No one's going to think field hockey here.

Right. All right. So. So the point I was trying to go for is this. The point I was trying to go for is there's this terminology that you got to keep your head on a swivel, and then if you're going to play hockey and play well, you've got to keep your head up. You cannot stare at the puck. You can't stare at the field feet. You can't stare at the stick. You can't stare at the rumble below your feet. Because the moment you do and you see this in professional hockey, like, if you watch any highlight reel, the guy that gets knocked on his butt through the glass over the walls is always the guy that's got his head down. And I think that's a great metaphor for the different things that you were just describing is if you're going to keep your head down. Right. You're opening yourself up to get knocked the heck out. And I'm learning from that. Even this conversation, I'm taking ownership of that. I'm actually still replaying that conversation I have with my kids because I love all of my kids. I want to have them to have amazing lives. I want to see them do amazing things. I believe that they can do anything. Right. But I also have to be accountable to my family just as much as my team and let them know that I believe they can do those things.

Yeah.

Right. But I also want them to learn. One of the things I want them, hopefully when they watch this back, I want them to learn from you, specifically as that you have what I think could be a new T shirt for you. It says, I'm blank. Right. And I do hard things.

I love it.

Right. So I'm Sarah and I do hard things. Yeah.

Like little name tags. Little name tags.

Oh, I can. This is you.

I'm Mark, and I do hard things. I like it. It's like Alcoholic Anonymous, only in reverse.

Well, yeah, because, you know, all of my kids have the potential to do amazing things just like yours did. All of the people we come in contact have the potential to do amazing things. However, I haven't seen a single person yet. Right. A single person yet that got anywhere without doing the hard things. Right. So as we wrap up the show, I want everybody to know exactly where they can find. We do hard things. So where can we find you at homey?

Well, I mean, the easiest thing to do is just Google. We do hard things, but you can find me on YouTube. You can find clips on Instagram or Apple, podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, all of those places. Check it out. And you have to, I mean, listen, your listeners might already know your story, but the episode that we did together is.

Here'S a little ego boost for you. So we take all of the videos, all of the podcasts, and then we drop it into an advertising campaign just to help increase exposure and stuff. Right now your. Your video is destroying every other one. Like I might have to pull your video out of the campaign because you're sucking up all the budget because people want to hear how this man went from homeless to millionaire. So it is crazy.

Well, I thank you for that. I've learned just as much as I've had the opportunity to teach. And you and I are going to be friends for a long, long time, my friend. I can't wait. Crap is over. So I can actually come see you in evident person. Yes, yes.

Come on up. Entrepreneur land up here.

I love it, dude. Well, look, man, I gotta. I gotta let you run. I know we're over on time. I appreciate you taking the time to actually hang out with me for a few extra minutes and drop wisdom bomb after wisdom bomb. I'll have you back on soon. Got to kind of thing because you and I can just do. We can. We can make an 18 hour podcast, I think.

So we can just like leave the stream on. I'll start working, you get to work. And we can be like, hey, hey, I got a question for you, man.

All right, my man. Well, look, everybody out there watching every. If you're. If you are like trying to figure out direction, if you're trying to figure out passion, you're trying to figure out purpose, self doubt, fear. Dude, you got to watch my man's podcast on YouTube. You got to check it out on any time. The millions of what, what we call podcast streaming sources, you guys got to check out. We do hard things. You're going to love the show as much as I do. I know you are. You're not going to hurt my feelings if you choose to watch one of Mark's shows before mine at all, because I just want you to get the best content in the world. So, Mark, dude, thank you one last time for coming on. Dude, I can't wait to do it again.

Thank you, Steven.

All right, buddy. Take care. See you. I always love hanging out with Mark Drager, man. That guy is amazing. And you have to check out the We Do Hard Things podcast. But more than anything, I want you to check out this next interview right here, because I actually think it'll help you kick start some things in your life and help you keep going. Talk to you soon.

So those are the scenes that me.

And my teammates are in. In fact, that opening scene you've probably seen where, you know, you.