Holding on to Faith When Life Breaks You - Anthony Evans

Because I decided that I believe what I believe in spite of the way that I feel. I started to experience what it feels like to be anchored in a storm. An anchor is dope, but you don't get to see what an anchor really does until the wind starts blowing really hard or the waves start crashing in.

Yeah.

I know you've been on a crazy journey recently, the last several years, specifically. And when I was researching some of the new projects you've been working on, obviously the stuff you've been doing with your family, and then obviously some of your solo stuff outside of your entrepreneurship and outside of starting your own media company, essentially, and. And whatnot. There's a statement that came up, and I jotted it down here because I think, if I'm being honest, when I heard you say.

Hit me between the eyes because I'm in the season right now. Well, okay. And that is. Is God fighting for me when everything else around me says he's not?

Right. I heard that from. You were talking to one of your pastor friends at a previous con. Previous convention, I guess you were a speaker and a performer at. And I want to start there if it's cool, because I feel like, you know, Covid obviously wreaked havoc on the world for 2020 and 2021. There's been a lot of people, obviously, that lost people they loved. You lost a lot of people you love right up front, like, all at one time. So maybe if we could start maybe there and talk a little bit about that, about how, you know, what is God's. What is God's role in this world when it seems like all heck's breaking loose?

Well, for me.

For me, I'm a feelings guy. So there are times where I feel like what I said, God's not fighting for me in this current circumstances. It feels like I've been left or lost or abandoned and all that stuff. And what I've had to realize based on my faith, is that feelings don't have intellect. They cannot determine what the truth really is, even when you feel like you're left lost or abandoned. And what I've realized in these lowest moments of losing eight family members over the course of a couple years, years, one of which was my mother. And she was just fine, like, that whole thing. In the midst of those feelings, because I decided that I believe what I believe in spite of the way that I feel, I started to experience what it feels like to be anchored in a storm. An anchor is dope, but you don't get to see what an Anchor really does. Until the wind starts blowing really hard or the waves start crashing in.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you're not moving. It doesn't mean you're not getting jerky. But when you look up and you're like, wait, I'm still upright. I'm still in the same place, even though everything around me is crazy, that is how I determined my faith is real. Not because. Not because something. Not because the storm didn't happen. It's because of what happened with me while the storm was happening.

Well, as you're. I mean, as you're going through this storm, we all face these storms, I mean, summer, what feel like catastrophic, right? Obviously, yeah. I mean, like. And then some are feeling like, okay, you know, there's a nice little ice storm or something like that, and you're kind of move through it, no big deal. What is. What is. What does it look like on the other side of the storm? Like, you know, because I feel like for me, that's when I've seen God's fingerprints over what was going on the entire time. The little. The moments that I almost ignored, you know, here or there. And then you get to the end of it, and it's like, I see what you were doing.

Yes. I think a lot of times what. What happens at the end of the storm is determined by. Is determined by. You see, one of the foundational things that I learned is you cannot build a foundation during a storm. It has to be before or after. That's the bottom line. You can't be in the storm and trying to pour a foundation. That's not how that works. So if your foundation was solid before the storm, then after the storm, you get to go, wow, my foundation really works. Or if it was not solid and there was a bunch of shifting that happened during the storm, you get to decide who, wow, now is the time I get to address these issues because life is going to bring another storm, and I get to build something now that will withstand it. So I think it. I think it depends. It's very subjective, depending. But after the storm, for me, I didn't even realize that the last eight years of my life, doing therapy for other things, that I was building a foundation when it comes to faith and therapy, that I was building a foundation so that when I was losing family members left and right, I don't ever want to go through that again. I did not know that I was building something at that point. That when this storm came, it's like, have you ever seen those. Those pictures of Like a tornado going through a town and there's like one house that's still by itself. Yeah, I felt like that house that was still standing. It did not negate the storm. It did not mean that I'm not traumatized by the fact that I was in there and scared to death. But that is what happens after a storm if you do the work before it, but if you haven't, it's okay because now you can start doing the work so that when the next one comes, which unfortunately that's what life does, you can be left standing after the storm.

Do you feel like this, that the storms that come up and stuff like that, and I know we use your metaphor, but people would understand that we're talking about real life. Right. Stuff. That smack is silly. Do you. Do you find that people that kind of surrender in the storm tend to weather the storm better versus someone who's resistant to the storm? Say that again.

Ask. Ask it again. Yes.

So my. I had this vision in my head. Like you take that house example, right.

You know, in. Maybe the windows are open in that house, so the wind. So the winds and stuff are able to go through the house. So this, in essence, the house is kind of surrendered to the storm where maybe some of the other houses didn't have the windows open and stuff like that. Right. So there's just more damage happens. It's kind of where I'm coming from. It's kind of the vibe. Yeah.

I think that that's. Again, that's subjective too. It just depends. It. It's so dependent. I think that there are moments where the storm is raging so much that you. You have to figure out what can I. In this moment of chaos, what can I connect myself to that's anchored and stable? Like during a tornado, they tell you to go into a basement or go. Even though you're in. You have to figure out ways in it to do the best that you can if you. If you haven't situated yourself appropriately. So I think it's very. It's very subjective and depends on who and what they're going through and how they were retrofitted before. It's just.

It's a.

It's a hard one to blanket answer because I believe it's so subjective depending on what. What you're facing.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to think in terms of, you know, everything that you faced, obviously, has been a lot over the last several years. You've obviously learned a lot. You know, you're the wisdom that we get during those storms is unshakable in many. In many respects, dude. I mean, it's like crazy. Like the stuff. I mean, we all learn. It seems like we all learn more from adversity than anything else.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

One of the things that I love about you, and this has been something that I discovered in the last week or so, is that you're an outspoken person when it comes to mental health. And typically, from what I've seen in the faith community, it's like people, it's like, you got to lean on God. It's all God. It's all God. It's all God. And they kind of frown on the mental health a little bit. What was your experience and how did you find your way there?

My experience was I believe that God, I mean, obviously, I mean, this is me. But just to give you a background, I obviously believe that faith works, God works. All that stuff is first. But I always liken it to my 9th grade algebra class. Man, I had the hardest time in ninth grade algebra. I will never forget Ms. Simmons, Ms.

Simmons getting represented right now.

Ms. Simmons, I remember you. You were fly, you were great. But you were up there and giving us the equation. She had a book of truths. She was working out the equations on the board step by step, and I was lost. I had no idea. X to the squared minus the thing in parentheses means what? And I'd be raising my hands every three seconds. It was a book of truths. The equation is the equation, no matter what. But for some reason, I couldn't understand it. And I got to the point where I was disrupting the class. I was holding up the class with all my questions, and I had to be okay with the fact that in order for me to pass this class, I need a tutor. I look at the Bible as a book of truths. I look at pastors, especially Tony Evans on a Sunday. He works out those equations for you, and he breaks them down pretty simple. But there are still moments where. Where I needed extra tutoring to work out those truths in my life. And that is how I look at therapy. And I get real emphatic about it because I don't like the. If somebody tried to shame me for needing tutoring and I allowed that shame to get to me, I wouldn't have passed the class. I had to decide, I need tutoring whether you think I'm dumb or not. And I'm actually going to pass this class and end up because of all these, you know, we can go down the road of where that landed me. Now, because I wasn't afraid of tutoring back then.

Yeah.

Therapy for a lot of people who are built like me and have kind of an emotional hardships and stuff. Part of being an artist is emotional, which is beautiful, and I can use it to write songs and whatever. But the other side of being emotional, if it's not under control, you're just lost. So that is how I view mental health as it relates to faith. It's a. It doesn't change the book of truth. It doesn't change the equation. It teaches you how to work out that equation in your everyday life. To read the verse, be anxious for nothing is one thing. To actually get practical tools on how not to be anxious, that to me is biblical. Next question. I'm just kidding.

Let's go. Let's go. Let's talk about shame. Because, you know, shame is one of those. Those things that I think prevents us from getting the help that we need. Right. Or we have a perception of shame. Maybe, you know, I don't. If I go get help and you're talking to somebody who also believes in therapy. I've been through quite a bit of it, my life, myself, and going from homelessness to where I'm at and all that kind of stuff. Right, so. So you're in good company.

Yeah, yeah, I love.

But the. The tricky part for me, at least for me early on was, is I didn't. I didn't go and get the help because I was scared about the people that I loved and respected at the time making me feel bad about getting the help. So in essence, shame. Yes. So how can we help people conquer that so they can actually get the help they need?

I think first people need to realize that shame is a freezer. It keeps you exactly where you are. And if you have a desire to not be exactly where you are, then you need to get yourself out of the freezer. And when you get to the point where your expectations become realistic of. My expectation is to be the. The whatever. If my expectation as a singer was to be the best singer in the world and to fill Madison Square Garden and to have 10 number one albums, that is a great objective to have and a great expectation to have. But the only way you get to it is by taking the next step. Like some people look at the objective and then it shames them, thinking, I'll never make it there. I think your objective should be to take the next step. And when you create a realistic objective, it can take the shame away from that. Now, shame is. It can minimize the shame to where you have the wherewithal to take the next step. And when you do that, then it minimizes the shame so you can have the wherewithal to take the next step. And that will happen to the point where you actually realize this is all about progress. This is all about me progressing to who I want to be. I know that there are different levels of shame. There's the shame that's like, I want to look a certain way and I don't. And there's the shame of I was abused. There are huge different. The variables in that kind of shame. But you understanding and wanting to take the next step toward solidifying and discovering your internal peace will help minimize that shame. Because whether it was caused by this or this, the steps toward healing look the same. That they look the same. Different. Different.

Yeah.

Don't want to minimize anybody's experience because I know people are on here, experience this and that. So I don't want people to feel like it's. Like, it's no big deal. Just take a step. No, it's a big deal.

Yeah.

But the next step will get you moving towards your piece. And one day you'll look back and be like, I cannot believe I've covered this much ground. It's not about intensity. It's about consistency. It's not about how intense. It's. It's a. Dealing with shame is about consistently taking the next step.

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. I want, you know, I've always told my. The folks that I, you know, have a chance to teach and stuff like that, that, you know, there are 365 days in a year. And, you know, as far as we know anyway, if we talk a Gregorian calendar, Judean.

You know, if you take one step a day, you're already 365 steps further along than you would have been have you not taken the step. Right. And I've used that as a. As a principle for my life to, to just. To do what you're talking about. Just be consistent. Like, try to. Try to, try to. Because I don't. I think you've probably figured it out as just as much as I have. I mean, when it comes down to these divine disruptions, if you will, the new book and everything, right. When it, when it comes down to that, the storm is. The storm eventually ends. Right? Right. And there's. Then there's blue skies and beauty around it, you know, that kind of thing. I am curious, you know, since before we hop too far into divine disruptions, I am Curious. You'd mentioned a second ago about, you know, the basically going through it, doing the work here, and the getting the benefit of it over here. I do want to go down that road, if you're cool with it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many different. I'm trying to try to narrow that down into one thing. It's just. I believe.

The pathway to the progress that you want again, is just step by step. So you're doing the work along the way, and you just don't. If I go to the gym one day, I can go look in the mirror. I don't see a change. If I go two days, I don't see a change. Sometimes you can go three weeks, and it's like, I'm not changing. But stay consistent for a year and then look for progress again. It's not about intensity. It's about consistency. So it's about just continuing on that journey toward what you want to be and not living passively and understanding that you actually.

Can. You have more control as related to your circumstances than what you think.

Mm.

You're. You're.

I don't. I mean, there's so much.

Does it come in. Does it come down to, like, awareness? Like, just. You're. You. You almost. You're almost like. Open your eyes to a greater awareness. Yeah.

I think opening your eyes to a greater awareness of where you are, but coupled with where you want to be, that is the key to actually unlocking progress and moving on. Some people are so focused on where they are that where they want to be is not even. They're like, I don't even know where I want to be. But that's why I think it's the balance between the two, and then taking. And then finding practical steps that are. I keep. I can't reiterate this enough that the next step can be like this, but take. Yeah, just take that step.

I love it. I love it. You know, there's. There's a comment you made as well, and you were talking to one of your friends or one of your pastor friends. I just happened to find it on YouTube, and I love. I just loved it. So I was going to. I'm going to bring this up. Okay. Because I found myself in a similar circumstance, and it was the matter of essentially chasing. Chasing what you thought you wanted versus the calling that you're actually called to or something along those lines. Yeah, it was. It was. You know, you were specifically talking about your. Your. Your music career and how it was. You were Aimed this direction and everything inside of you were telling you you should be going this direction. Like, do you. I find that we all struggle with that. How did you discover that?

I discovered that I was aiming myself in the direction of how culture defines success. And I thought that that would end me up, that would land me in a great place. So I was aiming in a direction that would have me celebrated by everybody else. All while I found out later that going in that direction and being successful in that direction would have had me being disingenuous to me for the rest of my life. If I would, for instance, have become famous by singing songs that I didn't like, but I just wrote them because everybody else thought that that's what I needed to do to be commercial success for the rest of my life, I would have to be performing songs I hate for the applause of people I don't know. That is what happens in our lives. We let success be defined by external things. We pursue that in certain ways. And whether it's monetary or work or career or friends, whatever, we go in that direction and we ultimately end up not having peace on the inside and realizing too late that after success, you can then not go write a check for peace. Yeah, that's your starting point. Our starting point has to be like, what direction is going to bring me the most peace, Whether or not it's bringing me the most applause. And I want. I had to make decisions along the way of, you know what? This may not be a number one album, but this is a tool I can use to be doing what I know I'm supposed to be doing and be at peace with myself. And that right there, that is success.

That's.

That's. That was success to me.

So I. I'm gonna. I feel like a lot of us do that.

I would, I would. If we surveyed the country, for example, or even the world, I think we'd find that a lot of us are pursuing things based on the expectations of somebody else. Right. How were you able? Because. And I'm asking as a person who's maybe struggled with this even a little bit now, right? So, you know, I've got lots of relationships and people in the thought leadership industries, like, yeah, dude, you gotta. You gotta do the funnels this way. You gotta do this this way. You gotta do this this way. And I'm like.

But I don't know if that's me, right? Like, I don't know. I don't know if that's me. And. And when I go and do my, my Me thing. Right. For. For a brief minute, it's like it doesn't. It doesn't get recognized. Right. So I'm. I'm. I'm curious how we find that balance of moving from one to the other, because it seems like it takes an element of faith to just trust that if you just do what God called you to do and be what God called you to be, that things tend to take shape.

Yes, things do take shape, but again, a lot of times things don't take shape until you start to take steps. So I believe a lot of times you're not going to get the applause and you're not going to get the support initially when you're taking your first steps toward anything, you can ask Oprah that, and she'd be like, yeah, like everybody, I got fired from my first job. Like, you know what I'm saying? So I think it's literally about understanding what your calling is, having your inner circle of people who are, you know, I believe support is huge, but again, I'm being redundant at this point. But it's about understanding that. That they. That the applause doesn't necessarily start day one.

Yeah.

If you're at peace, then who cares about applause?

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, as a root, the root should not be caused. The root should. The root should be peace.

Yeah. So peace versus recognition, basically.

Say that again.

Said peace versus recognition. Like, you're the pursuit of being recognized. Well, I'm glad you went down the road. You did. Like, I'm glad that you found your. Your authentic self, because I was. I was sharing with you before we hopped on. I was at a church out here in North Carolina is probably 2014 or 15, and you had performed, and I think we had a couple thousand people in the audience. It's a. Not quite a megachurch, but it's a sizable church.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For that area, it's definitely a megachurch, big time.

And then, you know, I had followed some of your music up into that point, but then my. I brought my wife and my kids, and we're sitting in the audience and. And you had been. You had already sung a few songs, and then you lit up with a song called the Mercy Mercy Tree. And to this day, it wells me up with tears every single time. And I'm in the audience. You're about halfway through it, and you're. You're just. That. That chorus is just, like, unbelievably powerful in the room. And I watched an entire audience stand up and just put their hands up. I mean, the Presence was so palpable. And I can only imagine that that experience would not have taken place had you not been authentic with yourself.

It would not have. And there are so many other experiences that not even that don't even necessarily involve an audience like that, but where, where, where my heart stood up.

Yeah.

And it was because I followed what I was, what I was supposed to do. And it's not because I'm super brave and all that stuff. It's because literally when I was trying not to follow what I was made to do, it wasn't working out. So.

My attention turned to my calling because everything else around me fell apart. So I don't want people to think like, he's so noble. He did such a great job. No, it's like.

Me trying to pretend and fit in an industry was not working, so I had to go and do that. But yes, there will be moments like that along the way that may not involve people standing in their applause, but you feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. Yeah, that is what I desire. For anybody who reads anything or listens to anything I do, I want them to experience that. Because there's nothing like it.

No, there's not. You know, I had that experience recently. We did an event called Transform you back in October. And it was a three and a half year project for me to get that thing actually to the market to show people just that existed. We ended up opening it up to the public at the last minute to allow as many people to pop in and check it out as much as possible. And not just presenting, but then having the one on one interactions with the, with, you know, attendees in the, in the foyer of my live event center and stuff like that here, you know, it was just, I had one of those moments. It was like, this is, this is what I want to do. Like this is where I think I can, I can make the most impact and stuff like that, which I thought was beautiful. I want to jump into Divine Disruptions. Like that was a, it's, it's a beautiful project. How did you guys walk yourself into that project? I mean, I know there's a lot of stories behind it and that's. I want you to tell the stories.

Well, I, long story short is that our mom, before she passed, unfortunately in December, December 30, 2019, what had a desire, she would always say to me, I have a company called Sherman James Productions. You know, Sherman James, this is my grant, My grandfather's names, my dad's dad.

I was going to Ask you where that, where the name came from.

My grandfather started this whole thing by making. Taking the next step and making faithful decisions. My Sherman author, Sherman Evans, didn't know he was raising Tony Evans. He just took the next step. James Cannings didn't know he was raising Lois Evans, who would have these. He didn't know that. He just took the next step. And so when I did this, this company, it was like my grandfather just took the next step. And now I'm here and able to do all this stuff because of their faithfulness. So that's how that started. But my mom always wanted us to do something together. So when she passed, I was like, hey, through. I have this, this company, this brand. I want to put together a project to do what our mom said, which is she didn't. She was so worried about the people praying for her and their faith.

Yeah.

This is the, this book. Divine Disruption is the message my mom wanted everybody who was praying for her and Bey to hear. That's how it came about. It is the story of how to hold on to faith when life is breaking your heart. But it's not from preachers and Tony Evans and Priscilla Shire and Crystal Hurst and Jonathan Evans. It is from a family that had to figure out, do I. Do we believe what we talk about on stage or not? Because now it's getting real. And it's not anecdotal. Not that it is that, but it's easy to preach it.

Yeah.

But it's, it's. It's harder to talk about it when it's like this is happening in real time. So that's how the book came about. And it is a love letter from my mom and from our family to anybody who's trying to hold onto faith when life is breaking their heart?

Yeah.

And it's.

Well, it's also a playbook, the experience that you guys talk about and how you guys walk through things and even walk through things with family. You know, one of the things I heard you mentioned before is that, you know, everybody in the family has their own little personality style, right? You got the feeler and the thinker and the analytics, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I just, I don't know, man. It's. Divine Disruptions are going to happen to us all. Like, we're going to have the catastrophic moments that we were talking about earlier. The, you know, hopefully the smaller things that pop up. I am curious, out of all the, is it possible to summarize your experience and what God has shown you from the Experience that obviously didn't shape divine disruptions. Is it possible to summarize one powerful thing that God showed you as part of that process?

I mean, let me think of one thing, man. I will.

Oh my gosh, man, that's so. Because there's so many. There's so many things. Let me think. I'm so sorry. Let me just. Give me 15 seconds to figure out one.

I think my brother said it the best way.

Sometimes God's yeses are disguised as no's. Because we were praying for our mother to be healed. We wanted her healed. Healed. And for us that meant we want our mom here with us.

Yeah.

We took. When my, when, when my, when my mom passed away, we were like, wow, God said no to our faces, like the world. Like we were praying for. I don't know at that point if there was anybody being prayed for more on a global scale than my mother, because we were reaching out through ministries and millions and all that. And I was like, wow. God said no. And my brother looked up and was like, no. He said yes, but in a different way. It was either she was going to be healed here or healed with him. Said he's. She's going to be healed with me. That right there, that revolutionized my mind because I never look for God's yeses that way. I look for him in the auspices of what I wanted the yes to look like.

Yeah.

When I looked at it that way and then when I looked at the peace he poured over my heart in that time.

Yeah.

I mean, that revolutionized the way that I look at, look at him and things and the lives that will be touched for generations to come through a project that came together because I would rather not have the book in my mom, don't get me wrong. But, but what he, what he can do with a mess, how he can make it into miracles, that hit us all. I mean, it's just that to me is the overarching biggest lesson.

That his yeses come disguised as no's. Until you.

At the end of the day, it's always a love story to humanity.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's. Well, I'm obviously, I'm terribly sorry that you had to lose your mom. And I'm also excited that she's at a place that she probably gets to do whatever she wants when she wants.

And, and the legacy that that's coming out of it.

Yeah.

Right. Nothing causes more self reflection than, than unfortunately pain. Right. In its variety of forms. One of the things that you mentioned is you want to become a pursuer of peace.

Break that down. Because I don't think a lot of us are pursuing peace. I think we feel like we're going to walk our way into happiness or joy or contentment, and somehow we're going to find peace there. And my experience is, that's unfortunate. It's not where I found it. So I'm curious. What does it mean to be a pursuer of peace?

Peace is priceless. Peace cannot be purchased, but it has to be fought for. So I. In my life, I try to pursue scenarios that help me go in the direction that I want to go, which is peace. I don't try to be a hero to people. I don't try to do all that stuff anymore because I've discovered that I'm valuable without trying to be a hero to everybody. And when I try to do that, my peace is disrupted. As they gain their peace, I lose mine. And I just won't engage in scenarios like that anymore. You have to literally make daily choices that guide. You have to take control of your narrative as it relates to your internal health. And that a lot of times is getting in the. Obviously getting in the word and all that stuff. But there are moments where the scenarios that you can have control over that are not peaceful to you. If you're stressed out by the weight of bills and mortgages and trying to keep up with the Joneses, you have the opportunity to pursue peace by putting a for sale sign in your yard and not being worried about what the Joneses think about you. Be worried about how you feel inside of you, dealing with you. Because you, the Joneses, maybe see you 20 minutes a day. You are the only person that has to live with yourself 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and making that your priority is living here. How do I feel living in here with me? If it's not good, you have an option to go a different direction even when you don't feel like it. Some people are in scenarios where they feel stuck.

Yeah.

But options within that stuckness, there's always an option to. To move yourself toward peace, because again, peace cannot be purchased. And it is the absolute most important thing. Because out of peace, out of an area of peace can come the greatest blessings for you and in other people's lives. Because you are working the place of not being distracted like before, before Serena serves a ball that you will hear them go quiet, please. Because for her to perform at her best, for her to basically kill that opponent, because she will. Yeah, it has to be there has to be peace, even for the best, there has to be peace. So that, to me, is. What is your quiet please in your life so that you can deliver in the way that. In the way that you were intended to, with the abilities that you've been given.

That is so good. What is your quiet please? Man, that's. That's actually pretty. That's pretty powerful. It resonates with me big time. Big time. Big time. Well, I am curious, right? So.

This passion for peace, did you discover that, you know. You know, changing your direction in the music industry, did you discover that, you know, through the. What. All the. All the adversity that was faced in creating divine disruptions, how did you discover this. This passionate pursuit for peace? Like, what led you on that path?

What led me down that path is like, if I was a Broadway actor and there was somebody. I was on stage in my character, and there was somebody in the front row distracting me and talking and being disruptive and pulling me out of character, and I'm looking like, who is this talking? If they did that once, they would be told to be quiet. If they did it again, they'd be probably told to move. Like, you need to move back or whatever. If they did it again, we probably put them in the mezzanine, and if they did it again, they'd be put out of the room. My. My road toward peace began with going, who is in the front row of my life that is pulling me out of character? Because there's something wrong with me. My life isn't going the way I intended it to be, and I'm allowing people to sit in the front row of my life who are pulling me out of character. Now I had to get over codependent issues of thinking, if I move them, then nobody's going to want to sit there. And no, I started to move people in the room of my life. And I realized that movement created a scenario by which I could stay in character. And my fear of nobody wanting to come sit in that seat diminished as I watched. As soon as I move somebody, somebody would come sit in that seat of my life who wanted nothing more than to see me in character. So I started repositioning people in the room. And when that happened and I could stay in character and I was at peace with myself, I was like, let's go. Let's move. Anything that's pulling me out of character. Let's. Let's move it. Whether it's career, whether it's relationally, whether it's all that stuff in my codependent way of I'll try to stay in character while they disrupt me. That codependent thing started to diminish when I realized, oh, the person who wanted to be here just couldn't come and sit in the person's lap that was there. That chair had to be empty. So once you start re situating it, and I know that that's work friends, really. I mean, you kind of. It's broad. Once you start understanding that concept and repositioning people in the room of your life, then that will ignite, like, oh, my gosh, there's peace. There's peace.

Can happen. Well, yeah, because you're not trying to be all things to all people, right? So you're not. You're not trying to fit outside of your M.O. so to speak. No. I love that you're dropping so much stuff. Like, my brain's going, all right, I'm going to watch that back. I'm going to watch that back. Watch that back. I'm going to have to watch that back. Like, I'm going to have to send you a quote sheet, man. Because it was like, there's so much good stuff here. You know what? I can say that changing my circle of influence in my career in business and all that kind of stuff has been probably the most profound thing outside of self awareness that I've done that has ultimately led me further and further down the track record. And I heard somebody say this recently. Most people don't surround themselves with the people they want to become. They surround themselves with people who are already what they've already become, you know? And yeah, so that. That resonated with me as soon as you said that, man. Man, that was so good. Oh, my God, now I'm stuck.

Don't be stuck.

Don't be stuck. We get.

Oh, yeah, let's talk. Yeah, let's. Let's talk about your production company, man. So how did you start it? Why did you start it? And like, what's the story behind that?

I just. When I went to LA about nine years ago, I go back and forth between Los Angeles and Dallas. I went to LA nine years ago, was on the. 10 years ago now. I was on the Voice the second season. I was in between. I got dropped by my record label because I didn't necessarily fit, which is fine. They're a business. And then I was in an open space, went to la. They was like, I'll just go do this. And my friend Jeremy Camp was at my house. And a lot of y' all know him. He Was like, just do it.

Why not?

Like, who cares? So I went and did this show. And because of that show, I got invited by one of the coaches to work on one of their albums after the show was over. Yeah, that created an LA experience of doing things way outside of my box. Like, from there, I was working on the show Glee and working. I was like, I'm in a session from. I got an email one day that the subject line was Mariah Carey. And I thought, how did I go from.

Singing for Mariah Carey? It was just the weirdest thing for me. But that created an outside of the box experience. I started being asked to produce vocals, put groups together, and I wanted to do it not under Anthony Evans, the gospel singer. I wanted to. I just created Sherman James to do things. Projects outside of my norm. You know, not. Not just outside of my norm. But then that developed into producing, producing live events, producing tours, producing books, producing my. My music is now under Sherman James. It just. It just started to become that because I was taking the next step. And so I look at that occupationally as well. I'll just take the next step and see what happens. And now I'm like, what, What? I don't understand. How did I come just. Just by taking the next step? So that's the briefing of Sherman James Productions.

Now, what. What is this I hear about you, like, being a little fearful of Christine Aguilera or something like that? Well, not fearful, but like, you, like.

Oh, well, I just knew that we were the. Probably the most opposite in. In Just. And that's again, because of what I saw. I've seen from her in the media, which a lot of times I'm like, oh, but. But that was it. I just thought we're the furthest apart right now in. In. In who we probably are, but we're actually not. Because she. I mean, she has a lot of things she said to me that are off camera that you would. Nobody would ever see. Inspired me. She said, Actually, she said, anthony, I. Well, first of all, the casting director of that show said to me, she threw down her pen and goes, why are you 30? At whatever. I was at that point, she goes, why are you 30 and I've never heard of you before? Like, what. What has kept you thinking? You can only do one thing.

That.

That's what she said to me.

Wow.

Then Christina said to me, in a thing that never aired, she said, anthony, with my. I know we're different, but my second album, people wanted me to be this pop princess. And I decided, nope, not doing it. And I was scared to death, but I became a trailblazer because I was scared to death and kept moving and fighting in spite of that fear. And she's like the same thing that I did as related to what you do, you can do. If you keep moving forward without fear, you will become a trailblazer. And that was a moment where I was like, okay, I'm going to do that. And Christina didn't know she was speaking into my ministry, but that's what she did. Like that. That's what she did. So I think I was leery at first because it was so outside of my Christian conversations. I always have some of the stuff that she was saying has impacted my ministry beyond what she will ever know because I don't get it. I don't like, we're not. We're not buddies. I don't get to talk to her that much. You know, I'm sure give each other hugs if we saw each other. But she was speaking into. Into me and ultimately you and all these scenarios.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to bring that. Bring that up because I know it's a fun story, but it's because I think a lot of us shortchange ourselves not just with our taking the next step, but also shortchanging ourselves with the. With people that could inspire us, could help us, that maybe aren't part of our. Our current clique or our current, you know, social pod or something like that. And the. The wherewithal of, you know, having her turn her chair and then obviously you guys working together and all that kind of stuff, I think. I think it's pretty powerful and something really good to do. Well, I don't want to think of too much more of your time, but I am curious. Where can everybody get the book and make sure they get a copy of that because they have to. It's definitely a playbook for. For moving through difficult circumstances.

Yes, Divine Disruption can be found anywhere.

You can go to.

You can actually go to divinedisruptionbook.com that's divinedisruptionbook.com and then you can. It will list everywhere. You can get the book there. And I actually haven't told many people about this, but I currently. The reason why I have to jump off is because I'm currently. Nobody really knows this. I am working on a book with my therapist. It's almost done. Called When Faith Meets Therapy.

Oh, you coming back on as soon as it comes out, dude.

That is what I'm passionate about right now is what we are working on to help people who are love their God, love our God with all that they are, but need tutoring along the way.

So, yeah, you're coming back on as soon as that thing comes out, because I'll get that. I'm gonna get that copy of that for sure. Everybody else, you need to go check out Anthony's website, but in doing so, also go and pick up Altered, which is one of Anthony's newest albums. I've been enjoying it the last couple of days to make sure. So everybody go check out both the book. Check out Altered. Anthony Evans, man, thank you so much for coming on and hanging out with us today.

Thank you so much. Loved it.

All right, peace. If you love that interview, go ahead and check out this next one right here.

End of the day, whether we are moving or staying stagnant, we're giving ourselves permission to either stay stuck or to evolve. But there is permission being given in some capacity.