How to Fix a Broken Heart - Mattie Jackson Selecman

If you have lost something significant and you believe in a sovereign God and you're not angry at any point, then like you're suppressing something.

I'm. I'm enthralled with lemons on Friday. It's a. It was not what I expected in a good way. Not that I. Not that I expected something bad, because I didn't expect something bad, but one of the things that I think is needed from a market standpoint more than anything else is unfortunately learning how to do great things in difficult circumstances. And, you know, so I'm curious, from your standpoint, what do we do when we feel like God is not real or he's not. He's not present in the moment.

Yeah. I mean, thank you for saying all that. I kind of am curious to know what you did expect, so we can go back to that. I think let's. Hard is that, you know, if we haven't particularly been through something tragic or something that really not just is a loss, but a loss that shapes, reshapes everything about your life. Yeah. You know, as I hadn't until I lost my husband, it's like, what's your daily need for God look like? And I don't say that flippantly, because obviously our need for God is constant. But with a life that had run pretty easy, you know, you. You lose track of the fact that you need him in every moment to sustain you and comfort you and guide you. And I think for better or worse, it is the tragic moments that he feels the closest. And so I think at that point, it's not that he's any closer or farther away. I think for me, it just became a daily choice of trust and a daily prayer of, man, let me see you. Because right now I feel like this isn't. This is not a circumstance that you should have allowed. So, like, how. Where are you in this?

Yeah.

And I think that just that simple act of, let me see you today, let me feel you today, like, he's faithful to do that when we ask. So it's really a little bit on us to pursue that. And it's not a big ask, it's a small prayer and a one that comes a lot of times on a moment by moment basis or day by day basis. And I just started doing that sort of honestly out of desperation more than even out of like some admirable faith. I was just like, I need you here. Like nothing else is helping. And he started to show up, and so I kept asking. And some days it felt super big and Miraculous. And, like, I'd share about some dreams and stuff in the book. And some days it felt really small, just like where I got the right text message at the right time from the right person. And so I'd say, just ask, like, whether you feel it in your heart or not, like, know in your head that he'll show up when you ask him. Just ask.

Yeah, well, you know, it's. I. It's so good. The. One of the things that stuck out to me is when you're. When you're going through the book and you're talking about. You're basically you and your husband's love story. Right. So I'm. I'm very fortunate. I got to experience my own love story with my wife. Very fortunate that she's still a huge part of my life. But it was interesting. I got. It had me thinking. It was like, would I have enough trust to go through those difficult things knowing that, you know, and I know we're meeting each other for the first time? But, you know, one of the things that has been difficult in my life is I suffered quite a bit being homeless and a few other things along the way, and a couple of things that used to get in my way big time. And you talk about it really, really good in the book, but it's. I love your perspective on it, which is this. This concept of I was angry. Like, I was very angry. I could not understand for the life of me why these different things were happening to me in the moment. And it took me a very long time to kind of work through that anger. How did you go through that? Because I find that a lot of folks that have. Have dealt with significant loss, even if they're people of faith. Right. Still struggle in those moments to really trust.

Yeah. Honestly, I kind of, like you said, even people of faith, you know, get angry and distrust. And to be honest with you, after having gone through everything, I feel like if you are a person of faith, especially you should be angry because, you know, like, what God knows, which is he doesn't want us to suffer. He didn't intend for death and loss and sickness and disease. And all of this could be a part of our experience with him. And he's angry that it's happening too now. That's what the huge caveat, as we know he could intervene if he wanted to. And I think that's where the anger comes from. But I think in that anger, you're honestly admitting that, you know, he's sovereign and, you know, he has control, but God, why Didn't you intervene for me? And, I mean, that's always going to be the hardest question. And many around me were angry for a long time. I share in the book my probably biggest moment of anger and sort of what that looked like. And I'm thankful that that wasn't. That wasn't how I felt all the time. It was sort of just in spurts. And again, not for some valiant reason. I. Honestly, Stephen, I was just exhausted. And I was like, I don't. Like, I don't have the energy to be mad at God about this. I need him to be with me. And. But once I finally got to that point, it was a huge turning point in my healing because I think it was the most honest I probably ever was with him. And I talk about where I was when this sort of sparked and spiraled. And reading, like, the first paragraph of the Book of Job, where Satan comes to him and he's like, this dude only loves you because he's got a great life. And I read that, and, man, it was like, I heard them talking about me, and I was pissed. Like, I was like, this is what you did to me. Like, I'm disfaithful. And, like, are you serious? And. But once I really got that out, it was just. There was this sense of, I don't need to have an answer anymore because it's not going to change anything. Ben's still going to be gone. My heart's going to be broken. I'm still going to have to grieve this and learn how to live. And more than getting an I'm sorry or an answer from God, I really just need him to start healing everything that's broken. And so I would say don't. Don't try to push that anger down. Like, definitely don't. Don't let it drive the ship. But if you have lost something significant and you believe in a sovereign God and you're not angry at any point, then, like, you're suppressing something.

Yeah.

And he can handle it. Like, he's not. My goodness, like, read the Psalms. He can handle us being mad. He's okay that we're mad. And he wants to honestly, like, hold us through all of our hard questions and our painful statements. And I uttered words to God in my worst moments that I'm not going to say on the show. And I think. I think he honors us when we're honest and he helps you through it. I just don't, like, push it down.

Yeah. I think one of the things I love about God Is he. He. He is the epitome of accepting you for who you are in that moment, because ultimately, he has a greater perspective. He already knows where he's taking you.

So.

He already knows. He already knows what fruits coming out of this. He's already kind of got it mapped out. He saw lemons on Friday coming out. Like, you know, he'd already. He already. You know, I'm saying it's. It's all a. It's all a greater plan, but it's really hard to believe in a greater plan when you're in it. Right. You know, I. My wife struggles with a chronic illness that leaves her. Leaves her relative and pretty much pain on a consistent basis. And, you know, we've talked about anger and being angry with God and, you know, and I'm trying to understand and be empathetic and compassionate and, you know, and trying to kind of understand that. But I've also learned. And you talked about this in the book, too, though, which I really appreciate, is essentially mourning the loss of the dreams that you thought were going to become a reality. And I find that is so true. Would you mind breaking that down a little bit? Because I think that is at the heart of a lot of suffering.

Man, I totally agree with you. I think anything significant that we lose or anything we lose at all, you know, has a ripple effect on our life. And the immediate thing that you grieve is your husband or your health, in your wife's case, or a job opportunity or a season or, you know, whatever or relationship. But there's already. There's already dreams and there's already plans and there's already pictures in your mind that you had with that person or that thing or that job or whatever. And I think what is so hard about grief is that, at least for me, it just kept going. Like, it felt like one thing to grieve after the other, obviously, with Ben being the largest portion of that. But from. From there, each season and each plan and each trip and each part of our life that I had to lay back down. I call them little funerals in the books. It's like you have to keep having funerals for all this stuff that you thought was going to happen, and now it's not, in a strange way, becomes a really vital tool in our healing, I think, at least for me, because it forced me to not try to race through the pain or push down all of the parts of it that broke my heart. And it kind of forces you to address every aspect of your life that's broken in an individual sort of way. And I think, to me, it kept proving that it frustrated me to know it. Don't get me wrong, I talk about it in the book, like, I hate this idea. I wish I could just get over it all at once. But these little things, you have to lay down and give up. I think to me, a, they kept proving, okay, God is gonna be with you in all these. Like, he showed up to the last thing. He's gonna show up with you in this thing. He's gonna show up with you every day. And then on a very personal level, it just made me feel like each time I did that, it was sort of building my muscles and it made me feel a little more equipped to handle the next one and kind of like just, just, I don't know, sowed resilience in because you never. It's a lifelong process to grieve something that was such a huge part of your life and. But it is really painful. I mean, it just hate to have to go back to it over and over again.

Okay. Heaven forbid you have never go through this particular lesson again for a while. You know, I've always said that it's. You get a greater perspective of everything in your life when you're forced to confront losing things in your life. Right. You know, I assume that even when mourning the little losses of, you know, going on a specific, a 10 year anniversary or having your first child, like all these different things. Right.

One of the things that you said in the book that struck me and I wasn't. And this is one of the things I wasn't expecting. Right? Because you know, there's all kinds of books that teach you there's a grieving process, there's a psychological grieving process and all this kind of stuff. And you're like, yeah, grieving doesn't have rules, it doesn't have boundaries. Like, I felt all that stuff out of order.

Yeah.

I love it because I think it gives us a unique permission to ultimately feel how we feel in the moment and then take those feelings ultimately to God. How did you come by that process? Were you expecting to go through a process? I mean, were you going through the, like, you know, I was going like back in the day, I was like, dummies guide for like surviving.

Yeah, right.

Kind of thing. What was your experience like?

Yeah, that's. I'm so happy to hear that because that was. I got very kindly gifted a lot of grief books and they were basically exactly what you just described. And I was just like, this isn't helpful. Like, I'm not trying to understand psychologically how this works. I just need to know what in the world to do to get through today. And that looks different every day. And so I think I went in definitely with the mindset of give me a list of things I need to do, like, give me the therapist I need to go to. And like, I just want to. I just want to not be. Feel like this forever. And that's sort of how I'm wired anyway. It's just goals and lists and whatever and like, hi, that's worthless. Throw that out the window. Because it truly is 24 hours at a time. I think that's one of the biggest takeaways when people ask me, like, how on a day to day basis has this changed you and the way you live? It really is that I have such a loose grip on my plans now because you just, you know, I know in such a profound way, like, you have no control over how they play out ultimately. And while at first that made me really frustrated and made me feel really hopeless, I think after working through it and truly just standing on that, like, lamentation scripture that says God's mercies are new every morning. And, like, they really, really are, but it's like a 24 hour at a time thing. And you, you can ask God for what you need in 24 hour periods. And at the end of the day, you're probably Drake. Like, you're probably on the mercies and you're like, I can never do this again. And then yet again you wake up, his mercies are new every morning. And I wanted that so badly to not be true. But it is just like a one day at a time thing. And.

He meets you in that. And if you have people who you trust, who are good people, they'll show up with you in that. And I think it felt frustrating at first to answer your question, because I wanted, you know, rules and a plan.

Yeah.

But once I realized, okay, that's not gonna work, and the more I keep trying to handle or, you know, bear the weight of all this myself, the worse my reactions become to it, then it felt like relief because I felt like, okay, this is off my shoulders. I know I can survive one more day, and I know God will show up for me for one more day. And then you wake up and it's three years later, you know, so what started out being very frustrating turned out being feeling like a lot of freedom, actually.

It's crazy. I've always, you know, I've always found that Basically surrender is found in the suck, right? So it's you're going through suck, you're going through suck, you're going through suck. And it's almost like I don't know if you found this to be true in your life specifically. I know, I know you mentioned a little bit in the book and, and this is just coming from my experience as well is like I'm so stinking hard headed. I wanted to outwork, outrun out fighting, right? The, the suck thinking I'm going to have a badge of honor and you know, I'm a, I'm a warrior for God and I'm putting on the armor and all kinds of stuff. And my grandfather came to me one day and he said, you do realize that David spent time in a cave sharpening a sword, right? And I was like, wow. No, no, I didn't, I didn't know that. I thought David slew his ten thousands and you know, was conquering everybody and all that kind of stuff. I don't know what was your experience like? Because I find that people.

And maybe people that are watching and listening even right now, right. Are folks who are maybe in the suck, right. And it's very easy to be on the other side of the suck and know it's all going to be okay if it's very different to be in the suck and know it's all going to be okay. Right? Talk to me a little about your surrender process and what strength you found in surrender and stuff.

Man, I got chills with the David thing in the cave. I've never thought about it that way. But.

That was, that was one of the hardest things for me to accept was exactly what you said, is that I now know your greatest tool in grief in the suck is surrender. It's really. It has very little to do with how strong you are. And I identify with a lot of what you said. Like I'm very hard headed. I literally said to my. I said I want to grieve well, like not to be impressive as Maddie, but to, to be like a light for the kingdom and this is what God can do for you. And, and I think that that is an honorable intention. But I, I just, he doesn't. We're not supposed to be able to handle stuff like death. Like we're not supposed to be able to handle that on our own. And I think I talk about in there when I was trying to do that for a while, though it was well intended and though it was really.

Even in coming to the Lord for what I needed it. Just. We just can't, like, we just can't like you.

Daddy, please open the door.

Yeah, I know you will be crushed under the weight of trying to handle the things in your life that God never wanted us to have to handle. And it was trying to do it well in my own strengths and making some mistakes and just getting to a place where I realized I can't do this my way. Like, there's no good my way to do this. That I started, like, surrendering was the motto. And it really is as simple as God. This is what I want to control and I can't. And I need to hand it to you and I need you to give me what I need for this day. And I did that again every morning. Like I had very practically a piece of paper and on my bedside table and I wrote Jesus in Sharpie because that's permanent and his strength is permanent. And I wrote all the other junk that I was trying to do on my own in pencil. And I read it out loud every morning. And some days I was like, yes, fired up for the Lord, Surrender is my weapon. And some days I was like, I don't even know if this is true, but I did it anyway. And he shows up anyway. And eventually the decisions that feel crushing and the days that feel totally anxiety ridden, you know, when you surrender them, you start to walk into them with a little more peace and a little more peace and a little more peace. And that truly doesn't come from surrender. Like, you're so right about that.

Well, one of the things I thought was, it's one of the reasons I wanted you to talk about it because I, you know, I remember being, I've had, I refer to it, you're going to go through probably three to five crushing moments in your life, right? And they come in different levels, right.

I'm three in so far and I'm begging God for not to have any more for a while. But in every single circumstance, on the third one, I tried to surrender quicker but found myself not really knowing how to surrender. It's like I just want, I don't want to. I gotta, I'm in my own way kind of thing, right? Like, you know, just felt like a spaz. And I'm so glad you took the time to kind of break out like, you know, Jesus and Sharpie, everything else in pencil, everything else is fluctuating. I'm also glad that you're transparent, authentic enough to say, yeah, so this is what I've done. And by the way, it didn't always work every day. That's a big deal, because I feel like, especially as people step out, become more and more thought leaders in the public eye on a more and more regular basis, it's easy to get wrapped up in, this is the Persona I need to give the world, rather than this is the Persona that God says to give to the world, which is that authentic and that transparent side. Right. And, you know, as we're kind of going through this, another thing that kind of stuck out to me is. And you gave lots of examples, but your pumpkin one's one of my favorites about basically building on the small wins. Right. You know, I know when I was surrendering, I was like, I just wanted to go from zero to a hundred, not zero to one or zero to two. Right. So talk about the power of small wins. And then kind of just, you know, just being creative and curious again.

Yeah. I. I love that you love that story because it's honestly funny, because a lot of people do. And it was one of those. When I was writing it, the pumpkin story, I was like, who on earth is gonna care about me buying pumpkins? Like, no one is gonna, like, do we need to scrap this? And the editors are like, no, I think it'll resonate. I was like, all right, whatever.

Clearly, it's resonating.

I know. I'm shocked. And no, but that I remember. And that was so. So that was very soon after he died. And to have felt sort of this sense of. I say it's a weird combination of, like, peace and re. Enter. Re. Energizing at the same time is what I felt in that moment, because it felt like one tiny, small thing that I had a little bit of control over, which made me feel a little bit stable. Yeah. And it also just breathed life into me that I, you know, I had no motivation to do. Do anything. You don't when you're breathing. You're just drained. And so I think it almost serves as, like, a tiny, faithful step to do something that you don't feel like doing, can remind you, hey, you're still alive. Like, hey, that one other thing you don't want to do, you can probably get through it, too. And it sort of becomes this, you know, history of little instances that build on each other, that, yeah, they all are just 0 to 1. But eventually those ones get you to a place where you kind of feel like you have normal rhythms in your life again. And so that's my thing. I'm. I'm with you. I'm here for the blockbuster moment, like, and that just. Just isn't one. Like, yeah, there just isn't one. It's just a bunch of really, really hard steps. And eventually, you know, you look down and you're higher than you thought you were going to be. And I think a lot of the joy that I found in those early days, like, I talk about pain and joy existing in the same moment, which is insane. It feels insane to even think that.

When you're in, it sounds insane, but when you explain it, it makes a whole lot more sense.

Yeah, but it's like, that you're not gonna, like, you're not going to be happy in the middle of the stuff. Like, the circumstances are awful. You're not going to be happy. But there's joy. And most of my joy came from those little moments because it was like, little reminders to me. You can do this. Little reminders from God. I've got you. And like, little celebrations from my people that were like, hey, we're with you, and you're going to be okay. And I think that will break those things. Like, that's you fighting back. That's you winning through surrender. And eventually those things compound and you feel stronger than you, you know, thought you could again.

It's crazy how. I mean, it really is God. They say God doesn't waste anything, right? Actually, they don't say, he says he doesn't waste anything. And his words. His words pretty profound.

You know? But, you know, when you. The more you talk about it, and it's funny, we had different circumstances, but I resonate with suffering, right? And I can say that my suffering led me to have a greater appreciation for the suffering of others, right. And understanding kind of where they're coming from. And. But one of the tricky parts, I don't know if you ran into this the same way I did, but one of the tricky parts is you have people who love you, who want to love you, you know, in the circumstance, in the sock and the suffering. And they. They want to, right? But yet it's almost like I didn't really want them there. Like, I kind of wanted their advice. I kind of wanted their help, like I wanted. But it was almost like keeping them not necessarily at a distance, but like, let me come to you versus you come to me kind of thing. Did you. What was your experience like? Were you very much like, you know, come on, bring it. Bring the love, everybody. Or would you also want to distance yourself?

I think I was kind of. It depended on the day, honestly, because of the nature of my loss. I wanted the love for a long time because I didn't want to be alone, like, physically alone, by myself. And so in that regard, they were really wonderful to say, hey, every day we've got one person who's like, kind of clear their schedule, be with you if you want them, if you don't, just, like, call them off the schedule, you know? And so that was really kind. And I probably had someone around me for at least six weeks. Six, six to eight weeks, because I just didn't want to be alone. But from an emotional standpoint, I think I was so overwhelmed by everything that you feel when you suffer and just sort of the chaos of, like, your emotions changing constantly, that I needed to always feel those things with myself first and on the healthiest days, with God first, before I could go to other people. I am a little bit more of a internal processor. And I just needed to feel the depths of it. And to be honest with you, like, even on the hardest days and kind of the hard things I had to do, like packing up his things or like I talk about our anniversary was very soon after his death. And, like, watching our wedding video and doing all those things, I had to do those by myself. Because just the way that I am wired, for better or worse, mostly worse.

I knew I wouldn't fully grieve. I wouldn't let my heart fully break if I was around other people. Like, I would try to hold it together. So I learned early on, like, it's not me being elusive and it's not me being depressed. I want to do the hard stuff by myself. I just have to so that I honestly, like, hurt as much as I need to. And then when I need to recover, I'll bring in the troops, you know, so. But I think that that is. So it's such an important question to ask because everybody needs a different. Everybody has a different thing that they need in that. And yours sounds different than mine. But, yeah, with time, I think the best. The best thing that you can work toward is learning what your own grief looks like and learning what you need. And it's took me a while to learn. Okay, for the hard, hard, hard stuff, I gotta, like, hit rock bottom by myself, and then I need the people outside to help pull me back up. But I had to learn that. So it takes a while to learn how you grieve.

What did you learn? What did you learn about redemption? You gotta. There's a specific story that I just. It almost brought me to tears. Well, let's be honest. It brought me to tears, which is this. This. Well, I'll let you tell the story. But essentially your husband giving you your wedding anniversary gift.

Yeah, that is wild because it taught me a lot.

It just, it just spoke, it just. Yale. Redemption. Redemption. Redemption.

Yeah. So as I mentioned, he passed away about three weeks before our first anniversary. So going into that day obviously was almost unthinkable because you're basically still in this newlywed phase. You're like building up to celebrate. And truly still to this day, the best day of my life was our wedding day. I mean, it's just awesome. It's so fun.

Yeah.

And I'm leading up to this day and I'm just, I'm like, what on earth am I going to do? Like, I knew it was going to be excruciating. And so the. Also really stubborn had a hard headed part of me was like, I'm at least going to have a little bit of joy in this day. Like I'm going to force, I'm going to create something fun that's going to happen. And I did do that. And I did have a wonderful meal with his family. My family. And it was brutal, but it was, we smiled, you know, we laughed. And so I'm grateful for that. But when I woke up on that day, I remember thinking, there's no way I can get to tonight if I don't just face this thing head on this morning. And I remembered that when probably two months before he had his accident, he had ordered a gift off of Etsy and it came to our house and I was like, what did you buy on Etsy? Don't open it, don't open it.

Like for the first record that just shows you what kind of man he is that he knew he could go to Etsy.

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was like, don't open it. Like it's for anniversary. Like, this is serious, don't open it. Whatever. So I'd forgotten all about it when we came home from Florida, which is where his accident happened and where he passed away. I remember finding it when I was just like going through stuff in his office. And a huge part of me of course, wanted to open it. But then eventually I was like, okay, I'll just, I'll wait. And so that morning I go downstairs, I'm gonna watch our wedding video because honestly, I didn't know what else to do. And I just wanted to see him like that. I just wanted to see him. And so I opened it and it was, oh my God, I have him Right here, if you wanna see him. It was this bouquet of paper roses made out of hymnal pages. That's awesome, because paper is the first anniversary or whatever. And I just bawled like I lost it because it was obviously so painful. But there was also this very, very, very deep, tender kindness from God in that moment. Because I say in the book, like in July, when Ben was prompted to order this early, three months early, God knew that I would need this gift from Ben. And he also knew that I would need another assurance that he loves me. Detail that, like, I promise I'm not going to leave you alone on these days. And it just was so powerful and. And I think just. Just built another layer of trust in me so early in that, like, you will survive these. God will give you what you need. And today it happens to be a bouquet of paper roses. And you don't know what it will be down the road, but he'll be there and he'll give it to you. And it was just. It was remarkable. I mean, it was a horrible, beautiful day and it's just wild. Yeah.

No, I love. And I love the story because I. Again, I think it goes back to. If you open yourself up to the little kisses from heaven, they're all over the place. Even when you're suffering, I will personally admit, and I'm sure you would follow suit and say when you're. When you're crying so hard that you can't see, like, everything's like, just. It's a hot mess. There's no way you can see the little assurances. Right. So it's not until the tears start to. To dry a little bit and kind of come away a little bit. But now I love that story. I just. It warms my heart every time. And I feel like people need to understand that those little things are there and they're probably there. And if you're going through that the struggle of suffering, they're probably even there now. It just may just take a little more open heart, kind of see them and feel them. You also have this other. This other thing that I thought was really profound that I feel like it kind of goes back to permission in such a way that basically giving yourself the permission to move on or to live a new life without disrespecting or not honoring the previous one. I'd love to hear about that experience and how you got there, because I think it's so profound. And I think a lot of people who are, like I said, they're in the suck can be kind of reminded with the hope and can be given hope through these stories. So how did that happen for you?

Man? It's still happening. I mean, I think that's the biggest fear in losing, especially someone. A person that you love is. Okay. What's the line between holding so tightly to this path that I shackle myself from growing spiritually, that I shackle myself from rebounding emotionally, that I shackle myself from, like, moving forward in my life? And on the flip side of that, like, the fear of moving forward and forgetting or moving forward and losing the connection or losing, you know, the love feelings that you have for those people. And it. It truly is a miracle that we can even do that. I mean, I remember one of my mom's best friends, who's now in her 50s, was widowed in her 20s. And she's obviously been a mentor to me and her eventually saying, you know, God will somehow, in a way that she couldn't explain, make room in your heart to love him and love somebody else and to honor his life and his family and to move into your new one. And it's not something that we can explain even. It's really just a miracle. And I think holding out hope for that and knowing that it's true. And I didn't feel for so long like it could be true. Because you don't feel like it can be true. You feel like the only way to preserve who and what you've lost is to just cling to it and keep everything the same. And, man, the growth really comes. And, like, honestly, a richness of beauty about life comes when you're like, it's not either, or it's not then and now, like, I can bring his stories and this joyful way that he lived his life and his family and all of these things that we enjoyed together into my life. And I can continue to share them with all these people I come in contact with. And to see that start to really happen is incredible. And it honestly feels now more like an honor to, like, kind of steward his legacy and, like, share things about his life. And it's still painful, but it feels a little more sweet than it used to.

Yeah.

And so I would say, like, don't rush those things, but be prayerful in those things. And also don't be afraid to talk about them, to keep some of their things around. Like, include them in your life. Because other people will kind of yield to whatever you do. Like, they're gonna probably not bring it up as much. Cause they want to honor how you feel. And if you want to talk about it or, you know, whatever. Do something they love to do, man. Do it. Most people will follow and be fine. And if they're weird about it, then, you know, they're not your people.

That's such good advice. It really is. Yeah. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I also think not only is does God create a bigger environment for our heart to love, too. At the same time, I also believe he's big enough to take the person that you will one day meet, and that person will honor Ben's memory and respect. Like, it's almost like I feel like that'll set the stage. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm doing this. Maybe getting a little bit too much in the prophecy side.

I'll take that prophecy. I like that.

Yeah, Well, I feel like you're going to get there. I'm a big believer that God doesn't give us. It's not just about giving us something we can't handle. It's also about giving us something that's going to set the stage for even. Something even better. And when a lot of times we don't even understand it. You know, Ben, on his time here on Earth was a beautiful human being. He loved in dark circumstances. Right. And all kinds of stuff as the attorney and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, and I just. I just kind of imagine him as even a brighter angel. Right.

Yeah.

Because everything is magnified. Right. So anyway, I am curious, you know, lemons on Friday. So one of the reasons why I said earlier in the show, I was like, yeah, I wasn't really sure what to expect was because it's such a creative title. It's like, I literally got the book. I'm like, what is this? And then I got into it, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so, so good. This is so good. Tell us how you came up with a title. I know you talk about it in the book, but. And whatnot, but tell us how you come up with the title.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because there were a lot more traditional options that I toyed with. And then when I was going back through my journals, which is sort of. I mean, that's how I dealt with everything and really was sort of the foundation of everything in the book. There was a. There was a page where I was talking about feeling like, I know the promises of God are true. Like, I know Jesus can redeem anything. But I was like, this had to be how the disciples Fell. I don't. Maybe I wrote that around Easter or something. I don't know why it was in my head, but I was like, no, everybody, everybody celebrates Resurrection Sunday. And nobody takes time to pause and think about how excruciating and terrifying Friday probably was for these guys because they gave up their life for three years. They believe what Jesus told them was going to happen. And they're sitting there and he's getting slaughtered and then they're getting chased after and they're locking themselves in this room and. And I remember thinking, like, that's what this life feels like. It feels like we know there's Sunday, but like, why did you leave us here on Friday? And then somehow the idea of this. I guess it's just a simplified analogy of redemption. Like, we get lemons, we get broken lives, and God is the only thing that can make sweetness out of it. And he's the only thing that can bring, you know, life from death. And so just sort of weaving those two together became this picture that I really clung to on a day to day basis. Just personally, like, like you said, I'm in the duck, but there's something beautiful that's coming. And both those things can be true at the same time.

Yeah, well, you know, and then the reason I think that's such a great, a great illustration. And that's why I was like, that's why at the beginning of the show, I didn't know. I wasn't sure what to expect and whatnot. But, you know, I've heard you say it a couple different ways, but essentially it's in order to get to the Sunday, you have to go through the Friday.

Yeah, right.

There's no res. There's no resurrection without crucifixion. Right. And. And sometimes that crucifixion is, you know, us searching within ourselves. Sometimes it's in the. Comes in the form of losing someone. It could be a number of different things, but I don't know. Well, first of all, I think this is one of those books that called you to write it, which I'm. Which I'm super, super stoked about. I am curious, what is your favorite place to send people up to go pick it up?

I mean, you can't beat the convenience of Amazon. I hate to say that.

But yeah, we're working on getting it in some local bookstores in Nashville right now. A little gift shop here called you'd're Invited, which is just an awesome store. I love the woman who owns it. She's so kind. We did A signing there last week, so they've got some. That's kind of a special place to me. But yeah, it's all the places you buy books. I should know more about the sales side than I do honestly really don't, so. So.

Well, if nothing else, I mean, the. The book is not just well written, it's well felt, which means it communicates a greater message. And if you're listening right now, watching right now, and you know someone who's going through a grieving process, this might be one that you give them and they set it on the table for a minute, but then they get it and they'll. And they'll understand. Or it might be something you need right now. So make sure you go pick up lemons on Friday. I'm telling you what's an amazing book. I do have one more question for you before I let you get out of here. And that is.

What was it like to go ahead and take all this whole experience and then co. Write a song with your dad?

It's so unexpected. It.

I'm not.

I can't play music. I love music.

I heard you were picking up the guitar.

Yeah, I can play like three chords. Not well, but yeah, over the like, kind of. Kind of serious part of quarantine in 2020, the end of that summer. I was coming up on the two year anniversary of Ben's death and one of my girlfriends was here and we kind of did like a quarantine crew. And she plays really well. So she had had my guitar out and I was like, yeah, I'll mess around on this. And I was thinking, I wonder if I could write a song. Like I understand how they're structured. Like I'm a pretty good writer even though I haven't written music. And that just happened to be kind of the story that was on my heart. And so I sat down with the yellow legal pad and was like, all right, let's see what we can do here. And while it's not been in my story.

It'S a lot a picture of me resisting running away from the pain, which is my natural response is to run away. And sort of God teaching me how the power isn't in running away, it's in turning and facing it in full. And that's where real healing happened. So that was how the story came about. And then truly I took it to dad on the legal pad and was. If this is any good, I just. Could you put a melody to it? I'd really love to hear it. And he did. And then, which is beautiful. And that invited me into the whole production process and, like, sort of let me have probably more of a hand in it than I should. And together. And it's just so special. Like, it's really cool. And I know for him, it probably. It probably brought some healing for him that he didn't know he needed because. And watching my parents not be able to fix it for me was really painful for them. And I think this probably helped a little bit.

Yeah. And then having the accident, I assume, down in Florida that, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I could totally get that. Well, it's beautiful. I mean, it's. Look, God is doing some amazing stuff with it. It's turned into a beautiful story. Right. Lots of. Lots of twits and twists and turns. I personally love having you on the show. You're welcome back on Stuck to Unstoppable anytime.

Hey, let's do it.

Yeah. Rock on. Well, I hope to see you again.

You too, man. Thank you so much.

See you.

Bye.

If you love that interview, go ahead and check out this next one right here. In our great country, you can do anything you want to do, and there are people who have achieved those things, and they're still not happy, and they're wondering why.