How To Level-Up Your Listening | Journey Principles Podcast 028

Welcome to the Journey Principles, where we show you how to go from stuck to unstoppable with life strategies that work. Now here's your host and creator of the Transform youm Framework, Stephen Scoggins.

Hey, guys. Welcome back to the Journey Principles. So happy you're here. If it's your first time here, thanks for stopping by. Thanks for checking us out. We give you life strategies to make life life mastery simple. Our goal here is to make you. Take you. Not make you. Well, I guess make you and take you from stuck to unstoppable in every single area of your life. We like to say that stuck is nothing more than not making progress, and unstoppable is nothing more than making consistent progress on a regular basis, which is what these podcasts and all these episodes are here for and about. So today we're going to be jumping back into communication. It's one of those things that I think bites us in the butt on a regular basis. All of us, including myself and Connor from time to time. Connor, director of Communications. Welcome to the show, buddy. How you doing?

Hey, man. Doing well.

Good to see you, buddy. Yeah. How's it. How's the haircut coming? You managed to get it?

Nope, nope, it's still wild. I'm thinking about what I might do, and I did this. I tested it last week, actually, earlier this week.

But what is flow bees or flurbies?

No, I don't know if. I don't know if I got some crap for it, if it was sarcasm or whatever, but, like, I slicked it back like. Like an Italian or something like that.

Yeah, I remember that. I remember that. Yeah.

You didn't like that?

It wasn't my fave.

Well, hey, maybe you got hair that.

Nice, you can't pull it that far back.

Maybe, you know, the only thing is ponytail thing.

Like Steven Seagal, I guess.

I mean, the thing is just the longer it gets, the more difficult it becomes to manage. And with the little quaff or whatever.

Girlfriend, man, maybe she can cut it for you.

Maybe that's a possibility.

She.

I don't know, though. I don't know if I trust anyone with my hair except for you.

Can also Jason do it?

Oh, yeah, I could.

Your head will look like mine, you know. So the last episode, we spent a lot of time talking in a very transparent, vulnerable way with you guys in the audience, both on YouTube and in the podcast stream, that Connor and I actually had a disagreement, like, a few days ahead of actually recording how to communicate well episode, which is kind of funny. So we covered, in a very transparent, vulnerable way of things of to do, and then obviously of what not to do. And we thought it was best to actually share a personal experience that we had recently had in an effort to do that. Now in that episode, if you haven't checked it out, I invite you to go back and do that. We did a couple different things. First of all, we talked about mistakes, most common mistakes people make in communication. And the second thing we did in communication is also the best things that you can do to communicate better. And as we were going through that, we were like, you know what? It seems like listening keeps coming up.

Yeah, listening. I think if I had to pick one thing, that's the biggest takeaway from everything we teach in communication. Everything I've learned about how to communicate better, listening is like the biggest thing now.

How'd you learn all that?

Well, one is just listening to your content. So studying, studying that, but also just experiencing it. So I've heard that always, like, you know, you have two ears. My mom used to always say, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. I'd be like.

You forgot you had ears for a while, didn't you?

Yeah, no, I did. I can be very impulsive and I jump straight to, you know, wanting to say what I have to say. And, you know, historically, I do have problems listening. So it's been a challenge for me and my whole life, I've been told that I need to work on that. So, I mean, I've heard it plenty throughout my life. It's just I recently started being like, okay, I'm not always happy with the way that disputes and conflicts go with me, so maybe I'll finally try that. I'm stubborn. So it's taken me about 23 years, but finally I've been like, all right, well, let me just see what happens if I get started. Yeah, there you go. I was like, you know, let me. Let me just see what happens if I do try to sit back and listen more. And I found like, oh, my God, everyone was right. There's actually gold there. Yeah. And when you do that, things get resolved, Both people end up happy, there's win win scenarios, and it all ends up to really go well.

I'm glad you did that. It was an interesting epiphany that I had. I kind of gave everybody kind of a little insight into when my listening began to change. I'm still not perfect by a long shot, but I do at least make an honest attempt. As long as I'm not Tired or hungry or something like that. Because that hangry thing is a real thing, by the way. At least I think it is hangry. Oh, for sure.

For me, it happens more often when I'm tired than hungry. I actually weirdly feel like when I'm fasting or when I'm. When I'm. When I'm hungry.

Sharper.

Yeah, I'm sharper. So.

So God designed us that way for a reason.

Yeah, for. For me, it's. It's more of a. More of a thing where I'm. But when I'm tired. Oh, don't even talk to me. Yeah, not a good idea. Yeah. Or when I have other things going on in other areas of my life, like I'm still working on separation or compartmentalization.

So you say you got separate, you got married? Separated. Really? Wow.

What?

Nothing. Nevermind.

I. Anyway, I. I have, I have. I have all these different, like, areas of life and I' that basically like, are going wrong with, you know, a friend of mine or a girlfriend or, you know, a business dispute. And I'll let it bleed into different relationships in different areas. And those frustrations, like if I'm frustrated, even if I'm frustrated with myself, you know, like mad at myself for not getting on this thing that I've been telling myself I wanted to do for weeks. If I wake up and I'm in that state of like getting pissed off at myself, I'm more likely to bleed that out into others.

Yeah, no doubt. You know, it's interesting you mentioned compartmentalizing. That's a big word for me to say.

I would actually say that we're whole people. Right. There's a wholeness to us. I actually find it's more difficult to compartmentalize. Like if something bad happens at work now, I've always been this way and maybe that's why I see it this way. I've always been the person that wears my heart on my sleeve. So if I'm mad, frustrated, angry, it's pretty easy to see if I'm joyous, happy. That's true.

And I'm.

That's not true for everybody.

I am that way too, I think.

Yeah.

Would you say that's accurate?

I think, yeah. You and I are very similar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'd say I'm the same way. I just. What I'm saying is like historically, especially earlier on, years ago in my immaturity, and then still sometimes it catches up to me. I'll have a situation where I'll let those feelings that aren't really directed at the situation that I'm dealing with right this second, but bleed into this situation and allow me to not handle it in the most mature way that I could. Whereas if I was not dealing with all those other things in other areas of my life, I feel like I would be in a more stable mindset and able to.

So before I even jump in this list here of things that can make a big mistake in listening skills, what do you think are your top three struggles when you're trying to be a better listener?

Dang, I wish you said communication so I could have used listening as one of them. Okay, so I actually can answer that. So biggest three struggles with listening. So the first thing that comes to mind is.

I have what I want to say, and it's in my mind, and so I'm impatient to get that out. Or more specifically, like, I'm very add, so I'm afraid that the thought will leave my brain if I don't say it. So I have this really bad habit of, like, as soon as something pops into my brain, even if the other person isn't done saying what they want to say, I'll just interject. I do that on the podcast all the time. I'm just like, oh, wait. And also then you're like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just wait here while you're done. Screw what I wanted to say. No. So it's just like. It's just. I don't know why I do that. I think it's just a really bad habit that I've developed through the 23 years of life that I've had. But I'm always waiting for my turn to speak, essentially. So that's a big one. The other thing with listening is I can let my. The convincing that I'm right. So I'm convinced that I'm right, and my ego get in the way. So I'm like, well, if I'm right, then you know what you're. What you have to say doesn't matter anyway. And I just need to convey my.

Which is the opposite of empathy, by the way.

Right, Exactly. And there's emotional intelligence.

Was actually. No, we got emotional intelligence coming up.

Yeah, exactly. Those are two that I have off the top of my head. I'm trying to think of a third.

Third one, actually, you gave me four.

Oh, really?

Impatience, ego, assumptions, and waiting for what you referred to as waiting for my turn to speak.

Yeah.

Which is.

Oh, and thinking that I'm right. I don't know if that's.

Oh, Yeah. I think I like your list better than mine, actually. Right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I would say that these things are common, common traits in people who are struggling to become better listeners. And here's the reason that I think that it's important to focus on trying to level up your listening. No matter where you're coming from today, you may be a great listener right now, and you can still be a better listener. You may be a horrible listener, like I used to be back in the day. And you may need to level up your listening. You may be where I am right now, which is, on most days I'm a decent listener. Some days I'm not great by a long slot. Long slot. Long shot.

Long shot. Long slot shot.

Promise. We haven't been drinking.

I was tired. Yeah. So if you look at that as an entire. Not a demographic, but like a quadrant, you've got. Hey, look, I'm all right. They're all wrong. I'm half right, and they're half right. Where do you think bridges can be built?

I don't know. That's gonna be really confusing for people listening.

So. Yeah, sorry, I sketched it out on my little doodle pad.

But.

So can you give me the options again? Just describe them.

So I would. If you were to draw four boxes, just draw a quadrant. We like to draw boxes in boxes.

For those of you listening, you can probably just imagine four different scenarios.

Yeah, exactly. Especially if it's retired.

Well. And also, I mean, if you're driving, I don't want anyone, like, visualizing boxes and then crashing on the highway.

Grab your Sharpie. Start writing it on your window. Yeah. Your windshield. Yeah.

There you go.

All right. There's the position that says I'm all right. Okay. Which I guess is the same as that. They're all wrong. Let me put that in the same box.

Yeah. So I'm all right, you're all wrong.

Versus I'm half right. Okay.

So that would be another quadrant, and they're half.

I don't know who's right. Okay. All right. So that'd be a question. What do you think the fourth one is?

We're both right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So which one's the best?

Yeah, which one?

Probably the last one.

We're both right. Okay. How do you get. How did we get to where we're both right? What has to happen in the terms of listening?

You have to. Well, in terms of listening, I mean, you have to, first of all. So you already know why you think you're right. So, I mean, let's be honest. Like, if you're not convinced you're right, you wouldn't be having a debate to begin with. So you're pretty much taken care of. The only thing you need to do is figure out why they're right, which means you've got to ask them some questions. You've got to say, can you help me understand? Which is one of the most cool, powerful things.

Right?

Yeah, I'm sure he learned it from somewhere.

You always mentioned to me is the saying, can you help me understand? Because it's not aggressive, it's not saying, well, why do you think that? Blah, blah, blah. And it's just, hey, well, I want to understand. Yeah, I want to understand your viewpoint. Can you help me understand where you're coming from here? And most people are gonna be like, respond amicably to that. Because they're gonna be like, well, okay, yeah, no, sure, of course. And honestly, if you're having a debate with someone, both people want the other person to understand. So when you kind of interject and say, can you help me understand? They're like, well, hang on, that's exactly what I wanna do. So they're gonna play right in and say, okay, yeah, okay, here's where I think I'm right, and you already know where you're right. And then it's your job to think that through. And this is why you're patient. You're coming up with a list of where the connections are and where the disconnections are. And then you can make a bridge and say, okay, I can see where there's a conflict between my right and your right. We're both right in our perspective. Now, how can we come together and solve the disconnects?

Yeah. So I would add to that, and I'd say the first step and better listening is obviously to open your ears and listen with the intent to understand. Right? Okay, that's good. The second step in this process is start with where there is common ground, then work through the things that you. So basically, your common ground are the things. I'm drawing them on a piece of paper. So this may help our graphic designers later.

Start off with common ground, which is nothing more than the areas in which you agree. Okay. Slowly, patiently, over time, meaning over the course of three minutes, five minutes, an hour, two hours, whatever time it takes. Start working through where those disagreements are. Look for the common denominator in those disagreements. In other words, is it personal meaning, is it an ego thing? Is it a jealousy thing? Is it a past trauma thing, meaning that person crossed you or betrayed you in the previous time. And now, you know, this episode is like, making you rethink everything. Like, what are the common denominators? Look at them objectively and then look if you can, see if you can build a bridge over them.

And that can be difficult to do in the heat of the moment.

Oh, for sure.

Which is why sometimes it's important to step away. But in addition, you know, we talked.

About the last show, for sure.

Right, Exactly. But then also, like, if you can in the moment, you know, and some people have brains that work in different ways than others. Some people do need that time to process and really think these things through to find those denominators. Some people are very, very quick thinking on their feet and they can pretty much piece them together as they go.

No matter which one you are, it's important to take that time. And that could be as simple as if you are one of the more quicker thinking people. Those people tend to, I find, run into the trap of being impatient as well. So if that's you, that could be as simple as instead of speaking very fast and interjecting and as soon as it's your turn to speak, you know, jumping in with your thing to say, pause for a few seconds, take a deep breath. And while you're thinking and also while you're listening, like, while you're listening, you should be thinking about. All right, where does this connect? When you're asking them, how can I understand or help me understand?

So you take it to another level.

Yeah, go ahead.

We talking about taking listening to another level. What? So this is a two fold approach. If you're looking to take your listening to another level. While you're asking, can you help me understand? Plot a notepad.

See? Okay, I heard you say that before, and I almost feel like that seems disrespectful.

No, not entirely. Say, hey, look, I want to make sure I understand fully. Is it okay if I take notes?

Right.

And asking notes?

Well, asking well. So this comes twofold.

There are people who are like, listening to this. They're like, yeah, I would do that.

So what I'll typically do is I'll take that notepad and I'll draw what equates to what looks like a cross on it. Okay, so if I'm drawing this on a piece of paper, you guys can't see it in the podcast driving in your car, but imagine the Christian cross, if you will, on a piece of paper. All right, Right. I put their name in the top left corner. So Oh, I see what you're doing. I'll put Connor over here and I'll put Stephen on the other side. Okay. And under there I'll put perspective. Okay. And then perspective. Okay. And then I'll just list where they're coming from while I'm doing that as well. I'll also, if I'll also list the things I want to say that I'm not saying because I'm trying to listen.

So you're basically on the left side of your paper, you're writing down the other person's perspective and these things you're hearing. And on the right side of the paper you're basically writing down what do I want to say. That way you're not interrupting them.

Exactly. And you're not losing your thought because it could be important, it could be something valuable by the time you get to the end of the list or get to the end of the cross down there where the cross would technically be buried into the ground. You should have a pretty good understanding of where. Common ground.

Yeah. You can visually actually see that that's a really good thing. Especially for the people who are more oriented as the type of people who would need that time to really process lists. Might be really helpful for you to do that in the moment because if you're that type of person, those typically more detail minded I found.

So if you've got a D and a C going at it, they're going to come at it from two totally different places.

Right. In general, because a D is like, I'm not writing notes, I got this. I'm just going to think of it as I go. And they could probably do that. A C is like, you know, processing all these variables and things in their head.

When you ask permission to make, to take notes. Number one, you're showing dignity and respect. Okay. Now if they tell you they don't before you don't do it, then okay, fine, you said it.

Still, that's fine. You do your best.

Yeah. If you, you show to me you show more dignity and respect when you're actually listening and actually taking notes. And then you're able to focus on the common ground areas that are, that are being built along the way. So that's kind of why I look at, like to look at it. Here's some, here are 10 very quick things you want to avoid. First of all, avoid leaning into your ego. So you mentioned that one that was already on my list. Avoid making sure it's your pride and your ego is standing in your way. Some people And I've been known to do this in the past myself, are so convinced that they don't want to be wrong that even though they know they're wrong, they'll continue going at it as if they're not wrong. Okay, that's pride and ego all day long, right? A guy once told me that ego was edging God out, meaning it's all about you. It's not about other things.

Also, pride comes before the fall. So if you're operating out of pride, you're probably gonna fall in this. In this debate, Whether that's from this person or any person not reaching an agreement with you or this person just being like, you know what? I've had it with you. You're impossible to work with. Which is what it feels like when someone is operating purely out of pride and they know they're wrong and, you know, they know they're wrong, and they still refuse to. I mean, that's the most frustrating thing in the world. I know personally, like, I get angry when that happens, like, big time.

Well, it's a sign of disrespect. And there's a difference. Knowing you're wrong and then discovering you're wrong. Right. And only the person internally knows whether or not that's the truth or not. So a lot of that comes down to perspective. Another thing to avoid is avoid making inappropriate jokes or statements about the other person while you're trying to quote, unquote, listen.

That's a good tip, because I've done that too.

You probably shouldn't say, well, you know, if you could, it wouldn't be so bad. You could probably listen better if you would dress better. You know, you can't use barbs and wires and guns and knives and throw them at people and expect for them to take. Take your.

So don't. Essentially, don't use ad hominems or direct insights.

Ad hominems?

Yeah.

You're gonna have to tell me what that means. That's above my dictionary.

Well, it's funny because I learned that term from my friend Chad, who studied psychology in school, so. But. So I'm gonna botch this. But essentially, I believe an ad hominem is essentially what you call a dagger.

Yeah.

So it's. It's basically throwing around insults and basically calling insults. Calling the other person names for everyone.

Listening and watching an ad hominem is an insult.

Yeah. When you call someone a name or something specific and you're just basically being an a hole to the person.

Thanks a lot, Chad Picos.

Yeah, man.

Love you, buddy.

You're the best.

Thanks for listening so much. And it's fun looking at hitting up on Instagram so much, by the way. All right, so no insults. That's always a bad idea, right? All right, here's one that I'm still working through, and that is avoid being vague or unclear because your point of clarity might be the other person's point of confusion.

That's a very, very good point. Some people struggle with that down, Christian. Some people struggle with that other than others. You know, some people really, really struggle to make things clear. It's just not the best thing that's in their wheelhouse, and they need to work hard.

Here's what helps me, because I'm one of those people that struggles to make things clear because I typically talk in theology or philosophical nature. Like, I. Like I'm a quote machine. I can do quote machines. I can do content all day long.

Yeah.

But a lot of time we have to refine it to say, okay, what are the actual, actual takeaways in this stuff?

Yeah, I've heard your wife say you speak in fortune cookie.

I do speak in fortune cookie.

Yeah.

Probably because I studied the book of Proverbs. Right.

So you say. You say things that, like, they sound very, very inspirational, but you're not sure what they mean. And that's why, like, I feel like partly my role in this podcast is to try to pull you down from the clouds and say, well, what do you mean by that? And you do it for me a lot, too.

But see, that's the point. That's where I was going with this. Right. So if you know instinctively that people tell you that you often are unclear, they find you unclear. They don't feel like you communicate in a clear way. The best thing that you can inspire them to do, and you have to be okay with this is say, ask me more questions. Because I find that being a 99D, which I'm way up there, 80 something, I, which means I'm very outgoing, very driven, can be influential.

We're talking about the disc assessment. So if you haven't listened to our podcasts on personality assessments or self awareness, then you should go back and listen to those, because we actually have a special treat for you there. Wink, wink. You can take your test and figure out what you are.

Yeah. For free.

So that's an area that I say, okay, look, ask me more questions. Evan, who's our director of executive director, I've actually given him carte blanche. Like, look, dude, you can push on me. You can ask me questions like if you think it's unclear, just tell me. Yeah, but don't be personal. Just say, hey, look, I'm unclear.

Can you give me attack the problem, not the person.

That's right. Yeah, always. Alright, so another one. Avoid broadcasting your negative feelings to other people without communicating with the other person.

Okay.

Wonder where you got that.

Long before you and I met. Yeah.

I have a history of venting and I recently learned that going around inventing to people is not the most conducive to.

Especially when your perspective is skewed at the moment. Right?

Yeah, 100%.

That's why we always say go get perspective. Get perspective.

Absolutely right.

It's okay to talk to a mentor that's a confidant that's not gonna share the data. It's okay to get some wisdom. It's okay to do that.

Well. Cause when you have a skewed perspective and you're having an argument with Sally and then you go over to Bob and you're like, hey Bob, you know, Sally did this, this and this. Bob's only gonna hear your perspective and.

Bob's like, I thought I liked Sally. Maybe I'm not so sure. Yeah.

So then it turns Bob against Sally and you think that you're trying to get Bob's confirmation so that Bob can help you win over Sally. Like most of the time that's been my intent and it's been pure intent and I'm like, well, okay, you know.

I just need to get him on my side.

Like Sally just won't see it. So I just need to get her on my side. But she won't listen to me. Maybe she'll listen to me and Bob. So I'm gonna go to Bob and tell Bob my problems so that Bob will side with me. Even though the best way to do it is say hey Bob, I'm having this issue here. I was wondering if you'd be willing to do a meeting with Sally and I to where we can all three together, sit down, discuss this and then you can voice your concerns all you want. Bob is a bipartisan third party in some respects.

He's joining the. He's kind of entering that meeting as a mediator potentially.

Exactly, exactly. So that's a more healthy.

We're doing some, I call it some brand tweaking that we're doing. We found some other colors that communicate with our normal blue for sure and look really good.

Yeah, we're gonna be figure out a position, adding in some really, really cool yellows very soon.

Guys and dark blues, it's gonna be nice for sure for a lot of pop, right?

Yeah. Because we've been using a lot of blues with our brand. But yeah, yellow obviously is very, very nice color.

But literally I'm using this example. So Connor and I didn't necessarily see eye to eye right away on the color, potential changes or the color palette increase. So we had a third party, one of our graphic designers sit down with us and say, okay, here's my perspective. He shared his perspective, she shared her perspective and we solidified a result.

And it was somewhere in the middle.

Yeah. And it looked good. Yeah, I'm happy with it. Right, right. Again, that's that win, win strategy.

Absolutely.

Alright, so when it comes to listening, you want to. When you do get your chance to talk, you want to avoid babbling. I was watching this TV show that my wife and I watch when we're trying to look for some mind numbing TV called Married at First Sight.

Oh, man, you've talked about that before, dude.

One of the last seasons they had this guy who was. Who sign up for that. I don't know, Scary. But who got married at first sight.

Literally, guys, they literally, like two people have just seen each other and they get married. They haven't had any conversations.

I don't think it's on Bravo. But anyway, dude, we watch it on itunes anyway. But anyway. Not that that's important. Not that we're necessarily endorsing the show, although we do it, we do get into it from time to time. But my. There's this guy, he's like a gym buff, he's like the epitome of the GQ guy. He's got the nice hair, he's got, you know, the massive physique and whatever. It's very clear that he's completely self absorbed. Of course.

All right. Actually that came across very stereotypical, so I'm sorry for saying of course.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's mean. Connor, Shame on you. Yeah, I'm just kidding. At any rate, so this guy comes out and then as the show progresses, it's very clear that he has his own perspective. He doesn't want to do anything about listening or whatever. And what he'll do is he'll have the lady that he's married to is trying to have a serious conversation with him. And every time he talks you're like, is he ever gonna land the plane? Like, what the heck is he even saying?

Oh, so he's like, this is on camera. Like, he's not the brightest Tool in the shed.

It's not that he's not intelligent, but he's trying to out intelligent his verbal communication skill. In other words, he's trying to come across in such an articulate manner, in such a thought provoking manner that he's continuing to babble and go around in circles, which is nothing more than frustrating to the person he's trying to communicate with. So when you do get your opportunity to speak, the worst thing you can do is to be inauthentic and just talk about the real important things. I don't know, it was just a funny thing to kind of see. The next thing is avoid sounding arrogant or ignorant.

Dave Ramsey has this quote that says, it's unkind to be unclear. It's unkind to be unclear. I find that trying to be as clear as possible, which is part of the reason I'm so direct a lot of times when I'm having communication issues or not statements.

But there is a technique and that takes time to learn how to be direct without being harmful.

You know, what I will say helped me a lot that you did in our earlier discussion that we talked about that we had with our dispute.

Yeah.

What's up? So we were having some disagreements on the timeline that things should be done. You asked me, when do you think you can get this done by? You gave me an opportunity to respond. You said, okay, so let's set a deadline for right here. And then you were like, so the next thing that I think needs to be worked on is this. Do you agree? And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. He's like, okay, so we're gonna give you a week for this. And you literally sat with me and you actually very clearly laid out what your expectations were on me. And that allowed it. So that. Cause what had been happening in the past is you were saying you wanted these things done. I was saying that I'm working on other things. That I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, these are the priorities. And we were just having this disconnect without ever clearly defining what is expected. So I would just be like, oh, I'm getting to it. I'm getting to it. I'm getting to it.

Six months later. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I'll just do it right.

Exactly. And then I'm like, oh my God, you did it wrong. And I'm like. And you're like, well, you weren't doing it. So, you know, it's this whole big thing.

I'd really get at least a Beta out there. Come on.

Yes. So. So this whole big, confusing thing. But. But anyway, what ended up happening that I really appreciated was at the end of our conversation, you know, we came to terms and we're like, okay, well, I need to speed up. I need to get those things done. And. And we need to clearly, let's set an expectation.

And we could share that with the team as well to make sure the team's on board.

Exactly.

Because I've learned that especially with yourself and Evan being on the leadership team of Journey principals, the worst thing that we can have is confusion between the three of us, because then it goes into everybody else and everybody else is confused. We just hired a brand new graphic designer named Christian. Welcome, Christian. Holla. Yeah. Welcome to the team.

And in doing so, literally, it was like that. She comes on day one, we're trying to sit down with her together and say, here's your job responsibilities and I'm coming from this direction, you're coming from another direction. She's like, all right, so I'm actually confused.

Yeah, yeah. So she shows up.

What is it you guys actually want me to do?

Right. Because you gave her five things. And I said, well, no, no, no, here are the three things that I really need. And then we're like, well, hang on. Okay. And she's like, well, you guys have given me eight different things. You've both told me different things, and.

They'Re both urgent and important. What's going on?

Yeah, that's confusing. And so, you know, since then, we've resolved that and figured it out. And now, so here's what we did.

In che, and I've got. One of the things I need to do is I need to have more meetings with the team, with Journey principals. But one of the things we do at CHE specifically is anytime we get ready to have a new hire, okay. We'll go into the boardroom and we'll basically make their KRA on the whiteboard. So we're looking at their character traits. We're looking at what do we want them to manage, what responsibility for, how are they going to communicate? What does the folder path look like on the hard job?

Yeah. KRA is a key results area, which.

Is basically a job description with results area. Yeah. Key results area anyway. And that's something else that we can use to kind of bridge that gap. But yeah, no, it was an interesting. For sure, for sure.

But I just want to let you know that I appreciated that because in the way of clarity, that was very helpful for me, was laying that out. And specifically saying, hey, is this an actual achievable thing? Because now I've agreed to it. We have clarity on what's expected, both of us, and that way, you know, we're both.

The way I'm wired is I'm a deadline guy, so I have zero problems with other people setting their deadlines as long as they hit them.

Yeah. Which is awesome. And so the problem before was we were too vague. I was too vague about when it would get done. So he got impatient, and, you know, he was like, dude, actually, I was patient. You were patient for a while. And I just wasn't getting it done because it was. Yeah, for sure.

So, anyway, so. All right, so here's some greatest learnings. One of which I've already. I've already kind of mentioned, which is unkind to be unclear, comes from Dave Ramsey. It's very, very unique because I think we need to be intentional about being clear, because when we're not clear, we just like the Christian example. We set people up for failure. Right. And that's a leadership problem. That's not a person problem. So we want to make sure we address that. But on top of that, when it comes to great listening and leveling up.

I find that a lot of people want to lead well, like people want to become leaders. A lot of people that listen to our podcast and watch our videos and stuff like that are on their leadership journey. Some of them are early on in their leadership journey, but that's one of their things. In order to lead well, you've got to listen well. So if you want to lead well, you got to listen well. And the action item to make that happen is you need to be able to articulate back to them what they've said. That should be your goal in listening. I think that's the easiest way to do it. Yeah.

Agreed.

One of the ones I took for granted early on, it made the list because of an experience I had in 2011. I had a growing business. I had. By the world standards, I was pretty successful. I had the toys and I had the stuff.

At what time?

2011.

2011.

Got it. And then I got to go to Entree Leadership for the first time and meet Dave Ramsey and his people and his team. And then we became fast friends over the next 10 years, basically. Well, right at nine years now. So that's how that whole thing started. But so I went there. I got my teeth kicked in because I wasn't a great leader. I didn't know what I was. I just didn't know what I didn't know, honestly.

I will say this, like, I was very impressed hearing your story. And this just shows how much certain things are more important than others. But, like, I was so, like, surprised almost that, like, you were as successful as you were with how bad of a leader you described.

There's lots of bad leaders with successful businesses. Lots of them.

I guess it was just because I struggled so much and like, I didn't know what was causing that. But I think it's the difference in action taking. Like you literally took so much action.

I took so much action that I. That I actually made the greatest mistake I've ever made. And here it is. And this is a bonus thing. This is not related to listening per se, but one of the greatest mistakes in life I ever made was building a business without building myself.

Because if I had stayed the homeless kid, right. The mentality that comes with that, the poverty mindset, the.

Low self worth, negative self esteem. If I'd have stayed in that zone, there's no possible way that we'd be sitting in the studio today. That's true. I would have ran off every single person I ever hired. I would have pissed off every single customer I ever had. Yeah, right. It's not consistent, but it's okay to start with where you're at.

I guess it's just weird because I've almost noticed that it almost seems more conducive to success to take way too much of imperfect action than to take way too little of perfect action.

Oh, that's. Yeah. I mean, it's.

And I've tried the latter and gotten nowhere.

You've got to create momentum now.

I'm not saying my actions are perfect. I'm saying. But I overthink and overthink until I have a quote, unquote, perfect plan. Usually my plans are pretty good, but I spend forever to come up with them and then execution well.

And if you're looking for perfection, there's no room for faith. Right.

And you just, you just like, are like a tornado of action just coming in. And, you know, there's a lot of action and faith. There's a lot of stuff that's perfect. There's a lot of stuff that's imperfect.

I mean that my life and how I got to the seat and how Che started, I mean, all of that. And now I'm just being honest and transparent with people. You don't have to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you to. I love you anyway. And you can listen and we'll be friends, and we're going to teach you and love on you no matter what, regardless of your faith background. Right. But I had a physical encounter that I cannot explain that changed everything for me. I'm not going to look back. And everything that I'm sitting here today going through and walking through, everything I believe comes from a trust in a God that is bigger than me.

You have to trust in the process. Right. And so, well, God is very, very helpful. So, like, if you. If you do have religious faith or even faith in something like that, it is a. I'll call it, like, almost a shortcut to that trusting in the process. It is. And so, like, we talk about the spiritual pillar. It's not always about religion or for sure, but. But for real, like, it's not. It's not necessarily about that. What matters is that you have that sense of unwavering faith that it'll work out. That's very tough to happen for a lot of people. They struggle with that. But God can be a shortcut.

So he's not a tool, in other words. He's not.

No, no, of course.

But I have found that a level of surrender does take a lot of problems away, and here's what I mean by that. So, going back to the story real fast, I had been trying to implement all of Entree Leadership's master series content for probably 18 months. And, I mean, I was really working hard. I was working hard on myself. I was reading books. I was podcasting YouTube before it was even cool, right? Like, I'm doing all this extra work, and I didn't. I just didn't feel like I was getting the traction. And I was sitting in the live event studio. Studio. It's like a big conference room, you know, a big hotel conference room thing. Dave's on stage with a handful of his leaders that came from his management team. He's sitting on stage up there, and they're taking questions from the audience. And the mic comes to me. A good friend of mine, Tammy Kornberg, who works for Dave's team and the Entre leadership side, brings a microphone over, and with tears in my eyes, I basically said, dave, like, I've been working for 18 months trying to put this together, trying to make this happen, trying to change me, change the business. And the business was successful. I just didn't like the culture that it was like. I didn't like the fact that people were scared or intimidated of me. I didn't want that. You know, I was. Because I was at the end of the day. I was fighting for them. I just didn't know how to articulate it then. Right, right. So I've been going through this entire process, and I'll never forget. I'll never forget this. Mike comes to me and I basically express with tears in my eyes. And I actually had team members in the room at the time. Part of my leadership team at the time was in the room. I said, dave, I've been working my butt off trying to change me, change how we communicate, put the KRAs in place, put this in place, put that in place. Right. I bootstrapped this entire thing. I'm running out of gas. I'm running out like, I'm running on fumes. There's nothing more I can do. And Dave, who is normally. He's not a hard ass by any stretch of the means, but he is a. He's very bold.

Yeah, very.

For sure. People have told me that there's some similarities, Very direct. I've had a couple different conversations with Dave throughout the years. Some have been direct, meaning like a swift kick in my butt. This one was very different. Wow. This one was just, keep going, dude. Give yourself some grace. You didn't get here overnight. I mean, you didn't make these mistakes that led you to the first live event to begin with. Overnight. Like, it took. It was a process. And like you and I were discussing.

What did that mean to you?

What it meant to me was hope. I felt hope. I felt that I wasn't a lost cause. I felt like that all the energy and all the effort that I put into trying to change my life and trying to become a better husband at the time and better business owner was not going to be for naught. But one of the things he was basically saying is when it comes to listening and learning and all that stuff together, you've got to give yourself grace. You are not going to come out of the gate day one and be a great listener. Right.

Or any of. Any of our content.

You're just going to teach you, however.

Get it right away. And that most people who study personal development, they expect to just, okay, I'm gonna reform my habits. I'm gonna change my mindset. I'm gonna do all these things. I read my book, and then I'm gonna apply.

And then 90 days later, I'm expecting it to be completely fixed.

Right. And then they. They beat themselves up. I did this for years. I still struggle with it sometimes because I have read more personal development books than almost anybody my age. Like, I would say probably well, in.

The short amount of time we got left, because we only have a couple minutes left. I wanted to, I just want to share with you people out there, with everyone listening. If you're listening in your car, you're watching on YouTube. Either way, I just want to tell you though, give yourself some grace.

Yeah.

The reason they call it personal development is because it's personal. The reason it's so difficult is because it's personal. Right. So it's part of becoming a better version of yourself. It's a crescendo, right. It's our whole life mastery, seven stages of life mastery thing all over again. Right. Essentially, if you remember back in the seven stages, if you haven't seen that content or listened to it, podcasts, whiteboards, you got it all. Feel free to go in your modality of choice and get it. But about middle, way through the process is the air of maturity. There's a place of maturity. I was coming into the level of maturity at that point. Yeah. Because I'd become self aware. I've been working, I've been lifting, I had the mentors, I've been doing it all, I've been doing the push ups, as we like to say. Right. And I was maturing as a person. And it wasn't, not even a few months later that I got to experience the very same thing that Dave told me to keep going on, which is the process of emergence.

In that particular situation. My emergence phase was within my then team that was working for me at Che at the time. Took me at my word. In other words, they had been given so much evidence that I had been doing it and doing it and doing it and doing it. It wasn't me saying I was going to become better or I loved on them or I was going to treat them better or nothing that it was.

He saw you put in the work.

Yeah, they saw me putting the work and I undervalued that. I undervalued that because I wasn't getting the response that I looked for. And then that's when the consistency is key, comes into play, right? Great listeners are consistent.

The key to great listening is being consistent and doing these things that we talk about. So we got 15 seconds left. And I would say these are your three steps in leveling up your listening. Lean in, lean towards the other person. Empathy, care, personality styles. Lean in. Second one. Listen to understand, which means you can repeat what they said. If you cannot repeat what they said, you did not listen to understand. There's your gauge block. Yeah, there you go. The third one is learn. Learn and grow. Learn and grow and keep going. And then when you feel like giving up and you feel like everything's a loss, take some time to yourself, and then give yourself some grace. I'm not perfect. Connor's not perfect. Our team's not perfect. But we do have a process that makes perfection happen over time with consistent.

Effort, brick by brick.

Brick. Brick, House. Exactly. The good news is, if you'll take the time to build your foundation, if you will build your bricks, if you will, then your families and your generations can stand on the foundation that you laid.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay. All right. We're out of time. We're actually overtime. We love you. We're happy for you. We think you're amazing. We think you can kill this thing. And we'll see you again on the next journey. Principles. Take care, guys. Bye. I'll see you in the next video. And please, if you don't mind and you enjoyed the Life Mastery content we're building, consider hitting the subscribe button and also hitting the bell so you'll be the first to get notified anytime we release new content.