How To Negotiate With A NARCISSIST | Rebecca Zung

There's always going to be narcissists in this world. They are always going to be toxic. You just need to shift that dynamic and really remember that the narcissist is way more afraid of you than you are of them. That's why you need to focus on you, you being on the offensive. You know, I always say that football teams don't score points, but on the defense, they score on the offensive and so focus on you, and that's how you end up winning.

You have a phenomenal story. You've been phenomenally successful, overcome phenomenal adversity early stage, and you somehow managed to niche down into a, into an area of the economy that I think we need to like, put in public schools, which is everything from negotiation to narcissism. Like, how did you even get into that, like, niche down into that zone?

Well, kind of by accident, in, you know, as everybody does, you know, the things that happen, what you think is going to be to you end up happening for you. Right. I mean, I ended up dealing with a narcissist. And it was actually.

After I had become a successful attorney, I had merged my practice with two other guys a couple of years ago thinking, okay, I'm going to become an entrepreneur and do some other things. And I ended up in a business partnership with a female covert, passive aggressive narcissist. And it was one of the most horrible, heinous experiences of my life. It brought back feelings of when I had been bullied as a kid. You know, I was sick at night, nauseous, filled with anxiety, and I literally couldn't sleep. I was. It was horrible. And I didn't know that she was a narcissist. I just knew that I was obsessed with what was going on. And somebody mentioned to me that this person was a narcissist. So I had already been talking about negotiation for many years. I had lectured on negotiation. That's really how I built my law practice. So.

Once I started learning about narcissism, I started applying what I was learning about narcissism to what I already knew about negotiation. And, and it was like I had discovered penicillin. I actually started seeing movement in these cases. I started to get these toxic people to do things. Then when Covid hit and I couldn't practice law anymore, I started talking about how to negotiate with narcissists on YouTube. I literally had no views whatsoever. Initially when I was just talking about negotiations. And then when I started to talk about how to negotiate with a narcissist, all of A sudden I was getting all these views and here I am, not even three years later and I have 35 million views on YouTube. So that's.

And hundreds of thousands of subscribers, I might add.

Hundreds of thousands of subscribers. I've sold thousands and thousands of my slayer negotiation with a narcissist program. I built a multimillion dollar business around it. But more importantly, I've helped millions of people. I mean, the letters, the notes, the emails, the DMs that I get every single day literally pour in every single day. You've saved my life. I was in a dark place. I was in despair. You've opened my eyes. I was going to commit suicide. Now I know what I'm dealing with. I mean, I get the chills every single day. That's the more meaningful piece for me. That's why I do what I do. That's why I run to work every single day.

Yeah, well, that makes kind of brings the question is, I mean, I'm curious to know maybe from your perspective, why you think it struck such a chord. Or maybe there's. I don't know if there's even a statistic out there that basically says so much of the population would fall on the narcissist, you know, narcissism spectrum. Like, what kind of research have you done so far?

Well, I have a brand new book coming out this year, so I've done a lot of research on it. Now it's roughly 15% of the population is either narcissistic or has a personality disorder that lacks empathy. So it could be antisocial personality disorders or other types of personality disorders that cause people to just lack empathy in general. And if each one of those people.

Emotionally abuses just three people in their lifetimes, then that would be 158 million Americans or 3.4 billion people on the planet. So it's really roughly half of us end up being affected by, you know, people like this. And so that's a lot of people on the planet. And I am, you know, am a person who is offering not just here's what a narcissist is, here's what you're dealing with. I'm offering real resources. I'm offering negotiation tips, tricks, strategies, tactics. You know, so because I am an attorney, because I have, you know, achieved a lot of success as an attorney, so, you know, what I'm offering is something very, very unique to people. And I think that that's why I have achieved a lot of success in this space.

Yeah, well, I mean, as I've watched a ton of your videos. Like, I don't know anybody else positions, the content that you do and the way that you do and how helpful it actually is. You know, I was looking at a couple of them just recently talking about, you know, how to actually not just negotiate, but I'll pick up on the signals. Like, how do you recognize a narcissist in front of you? Like, how to. How to figure out, like, what narcissist supply was. That was the first time I ever heard the word narcissist supply. And then try to figure it out. Like, like, okay, I'm like, going through my head. I'm like, ooh, I bet that and that person and that person and that person, like, all that kind of stuff itself. Heck, I wouldn't, wouldn't be surprised if now and again in my lifetime, I fell on the spectrum at some point in time. Right? But I'm curious to know, like, you know, how does one begin to recognize that they're actually talking to a narcissist when, you know, love bombing happens? And like, you distinguish love bombing from just being in love, you know, kind of thing?

Oh, well, love bombing is a very specific thing. Love bombing has nothing to do with love. Love bombing is a form of manipulation. You know, I mean, love bombing is a way to get somebody to be.

In somebody's spectrum of control. So it is a. It's an immediate form of let's get to the next level as fast as possible. So the reason why, you know, that you're being love bombed is because it feels like pressure. It feels like.

Overwhelm. It feels like you can't breathe. You're being swept off your feet. Even if it's a business relationship, by the way. And when I look back to the business partnership that I was in, it was like that. It was, you know, let's get to that next level immediately. You don't have time to think. And when you. When you do try to put push back at all, they always have something to say. Say, you know, there's. There's. You. You're not allowed to really have space to breathe because they don't want you to have that space to breathe. It's. Why wait, why think, you know, everything is perfect. It's all lining up. Look at the stars. We are soul mates. You know, look at how perfect it is. There's no reason to wait. You know, we've waited long enough in our lives to get to this point. We should go to Vegas to get married. We should, you know, you don't have that time. You don't have that space. We should be moving in. We should be signing contracts. We should be getting to that next level. Because they want to get ensconced as soon as possible into your life. Because they want to start making withdrawals. You know.

The point is not to be making deposits. It's to get to the point of taking withdrawals as soon as possible.

Does it seem like that? I'm just trying to think about some of the folks that I might. Would consider falling on the spectrum myself, you know, working with folks along the way. Will they often also, like, start interjecting themselves and start cutting off other relationships? Will they?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Give me an idea of kind of what you've seen there.

Well, they'll start to say things like, you know, your family members aren't really for you, or that person, that friend isn't really your friend. That person doesn't really have your back. Or I've seen that person.

Not. Or that that employee doesn't really have your back. I do. Look at all the things that I'm doing for you. You know, they'll line themselves up so that it makes it seem like they're the ones who are taking care of you and not these other people, you know, or why. Why are you spending so much time with them? We should really be the ones who have the relationship, you know, why are you.

You know, you shouldn't be spending so much time with that person. We should be the ones spending time together, you know, And I noticed that with other people who end up in relationships with narcissists, you know, all of. All of a sudden, you. You notice that they're not hanging out with their friends anymore, you know, and. And yeah, it is a spectrum. It is a spectrum. You know, I always joke that it's, you know, narcissistic personality on one side, and then, you know, whoever you think is the perfect person on the other side, Dalai Lama, Jesus Christ or Buddha or whoever you know, is. Is on the other side, and all the rest of us are in the middle somewhere. And. And of course, you know, it does fluctuate. You know, if you're sick or whatever, you know, you feel more selfish, you're hungry or whatever, you do sort of get more toward that. But, you know, it's that empathy factor. You know, do you have the ability to feel empathy for another human being? You know, somebody's dog got run over. Do you feel something about that for another human being? Does that bother you? Do you, you know, does that hurt you in some way?

Yeah.

You know, do you feel that pain or do you pretend? Do you think, you know, I should feel something for that? But I don't. You know, I mean, that's. Narcissists know that they should and they can. A lot of times they take cues for it, but they don't actually feel anything. I mean, that's, that's, you know.

Narcissists don't have the ability to feel empathy.

Now I'm curious, you know, I've, I've worked with enough folks now to realize that some people have just been through, for lack of a better word, hell on earth. Like they've been through circumstances or situations that appear to crush their emotional ability to be emotional or feel emotion almost as a protective mechanism. Is there a tool that would help us recognize someone who has just been through very difficult traumas and for lack of a word, become cold hearted, so to speak, versus someone who legitimately just doesn't have empathy?

I mean, I'm not a psychologist to be able to say, hey, this person's a narcissist or this person isn't or whatever. But I mean, I can just say that these are the, you know, you go to the DSM 5 and these are the things that they use to diagnose whether or not somebody is a narcissist.

Yeah.

And, you know, and if somebody has been diagnosed as a narcissist, then, you know, here's what, you know, you're dealing with.

Yeah.

But what I can do is say, okay, if somebody is a narcissist, here's how you have to deal with them. Here's how you have to communicate with them. Here's how you have to negotiate with them.

Yeah.

You know, so, yeah, no, I thought.

It was just good, was a good try to, like, I'm trying to help piece together at least for, for the, you know, almost in a kind of a selfish way of the folks that I've kind of, you know, related with along the way that, you know, high tight, being 2020, I wish I'd never gotten involved with. Whether that's business or whether that's, you know, personal relationships. And as I'm kind of going through that, I'm also thinking, okay, there's people that I've met that from day one, I'm like, I got my spidey senses tingling. I kind of know better. So either I either I pull back or maybe I interject and there's other people that I'm like, hey, wait a minute, this Wasn't this type of relationship like six months ago? Like, where does this coming from? Like, is there, is there an example of narcissists that are more upfront versus more, more that are almost like a scud missile?

Oh, 100%. 100%. So there's a covert narcissist and then there's grandiose narcissists, okay? And, you know, I think the COVID narcissists are way worse than the grandiose narcissists. I mean, because the grandiose narcissists are much easier to spot. You know, I mean, they're, they're the ones that I think of as what I call the garden variety narcissist. They're the ones that, you know, they walk into the room, they demand the best tables, they tell everybody how great they are, they are.

Holding court. You know, they're the ones that I actually always sort of thought of as the narcissist. I, you know, when, before I dealt with this covert, passive aggressive narcissist in my mind. And this is why, you know, I think lawyers definitely need to be educated on who narcissists are because I certainly didn't know until a couple of years ago. But I kind of always thought of narcissists as, you know, misogynistic men.

Basically. You know, I mean, that's was sort of who a narcissist was in my mind. I did not realize that narcissists could be women. I didn't realize they could be covert, passive aggressive. You know, that's not who I thought a narcissist was in my mind. But narcissists can certainly be covert. They can be.

Men and women can be covert as well, by the way. And what a covert narcissist is, is somebody who on the surface seems lovely, wonderful. They can be clergy, they can be lawyers, they can be doctors. They can be as charming as charming can be. You know, everybody else in the world thinks they are the most wonderful, charismatic, amazing people on the planet. But underneath the surface there is this rage, there's this boiling feeling, you know, where they're just. There's this competitive, jealous, underlying person that is just right under the surface. And they don't show this person to hardly anybody except for whoever their target is, whoever their that person is. That's right there. And that's what I dealt with in this business partner. And it comes out in very passive aggressive ways, very, very subtle ways. And there's always this plausible deniability that goes with it. So that Their hands are sort of clean, you know, so the types of things that they do can't really come back to them, you know.

You know, they'll agree to do things, for example. Absolutely, I will do that, of course. And then they just don't do it. And you're left going, okay, should I say something to them? How. How long should I wait to say something? And then, you know, you're the nice person and everybody else thinks they're nice, and you, you know, how much should I nag?

You know.

But, you know, it's. It's passive. That's a passive aggressive move, right?

Little things like that. But then it's death by a thousand cuts because they do it, little things like that, over and over and over again. Withholding information. They just didn't tell you. They forgot to tell you about the meeting that you were supposed to be at that was really, really important that you just didn't end up showing up at. Oh, oh, I meant to tell you. Oh, I didn't tell you about that. Oh, I'm sorry. You know, those kinds of things.

So is it safe to say then that on the flip side, they'd be the first one to try to hold you accountable? Like, in other words, you owe me.

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. And, and, and then they'll take credit for all the work that you did. You know, like when they didn't do the stuff that they were supposed to do, so then you end up doing it because you were supposed. They remember the thing that they were supposed to do that they didn't end up doing. So you end up doing all the work for them. They'll be the first one to take credit for your work. Look at all that we did.

Yeah.

You know that that's your covert narcissist. That's your covert. They'll even put their name first.

Yeah. Well, it's funny, I think that it sounds like the COVID is probably the most dangerous. And I don't know, it's. It's hard to figure out when some. When you're being. As a person, when you're being manipulated. Manipulated or you're just having, you know, positive influence. And I kind of got the. At least my. My test is like, do I feel icky? Do I feel icky afterwards?

Yeah, exactly.

You know, if I feel like I've got some kind of like a spiritual resinue or energy residue on myself or something like that, I kind of realized, okay, that's not somebody I want to spend a lot of time with. And I begin to Kind of distance myself, you know, I'm, my heart kind of goes out to people that are maybe, maybe they're already in a relationship with a narcissist or maybe they're in a relationship, in business relationship with a narcissist. Like, how do we help them? Like, maybe begin to kind of like heal is a good word. I think maybe exit is a good word. Like, what advice would we give them?

You know, that is one of the toughest things, honestly, because it's almost like a drug addict, you know, they have to want it.

Yeah.

Because here's what I have found with people in relationships with narcissists. They end up defending that person. They end up almost.

There'S like red flags for themselves that you have to almost give them. Like if you find yourself like.

Defending that person, they had a tough childhood, they had a bad day, they.

You know, because you almost.

Have to defend yourself. Like I, I found, like.

You know, for me, like, you almost want to defend the fact that you're in this relationship with this person and you, it's, it's your own sort of self respect and preservation. Why am I still here?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

How did I end up here? You know, and so, you know, when somebody notices.

You kind of don't want to.

Almost admit why am I in this relationship that may be bad for me, you know, so it's a kind of a touchy situation sometimes.

Well, it seems like that, I guess at the root cause of that there's some guilt and some shame. Guilt that maybe you entered into this relationship. Shame that you've realized it or. I'm just thinking some of the folks that I've again, that I, that I feel like may have fallen on the spectrum and they had a really good hooking mechanism, if you will, to make me feel guilty, make me feel shameful a lot of, for stuff that, you know, I had no part of or a piece of or something like that. So it seems like they'd be able to compound that just as easy. And the ones that I've seen, they very quickly can turn the, the influence into manipulation. So they see that you're beginning to pull away. They see that you're taking the good steps. They see that you're like starting to kind of like figure it out and hey, maybe I shouldn't. And then it's almost like they start the love bombing phase all over again.

Oh, they absolutely do. And it's just push pull. You know, I, I, I call it the push pull because they push you away you know, too, they start ghosting you, they start treating you badly, they start devaluing you as a way to control you, and they push you away.

And then as soon as you start going, you know what? That's it. I don't need this, then they start pulling you back in. They start love bombing you again. And this is in a business relationship too, by the way.

Yeah.

You know.

And it's this massive toxic stew. And so, you know, your head is constantly spinning. Constantly spinning. It's horrible.

Well, I can see why the works definitely touched a chord. I can see why I enjoy the videos, why I enjoy the content myself, why I follow you on Instagram and everything. Your work is profound like that. Just. I mean, there's. There's just a unique way in which you look at the. Look at everything from negotiation to the techniques of relatable, you know, relatability of almost finding a way to work with a narcissist without necessarily getting injured yourself. Right. There's. There's. There's definitely a framework there. I want to talk about the new book a little bit. So talk to me about the new book. Like, why now? Like, you know, kind of, what. What is your. What is your hope? What's your heart for this book?

Oh, well. So the new book is called Slay the Bully, how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. And it's for anybody who's dealing with a narcissist, whether it's, you know, not just divorce, but also in the workplace. You know, I mean, anywhere that you're dealing with a narcissist, because now's the time. I mean, it feels like it's an epidemic at this point. And I just really want to impact as many people as possible. I'm so excited that Chris Voss is now on board with me. He, in fact, just finished the foreword, and he and I are going to be doing some more things together because it's time that we now touch as many people as possible. You know, we really. I really want to get this in the hands of as many people as possible. I really want to help everybody because.

There'S so many people in pain. There's just so many people in pain from the. You know, if you don't deal with the trauma. And narcissists are in trauma. You know, they have been traumatized as children themselves. And that's what I learned in doing my research, that narcissism is not something that happened genetically. It happened because of something that happened in their childhood. And, you know, when People don't address their trauma. They end up bleeding out on everybody else. Hurt people, hurt people, hurt people, hurt people. And that is what is happening. And they just cause so much pain for people. And I just know the pain and suffering that it caused me. Not just the one narcissist that I mentioned, but I've had to deal with many other narcissists now, looking back in my life.

Yeah, for sure.

And, you know, I was bullied as a kid, you know, and just on and on from there. And because I've dealt with it not just in my law practice, but personally, I feel.

You know, that I've been chosen on a divine level. And I know that sounds so trite and so corny, and so not.

When you study your content the way I have, like, it's very clear that you have a very specific gift in this area, which is, I just think, is profound.

Yeah. And so I feel humbled to be called, to be doing this. I feel like if you look at everything that's happened in my life, I feel like it's all lined up for me to be doing this and that this is what my mission is at this point, to help people. And that, you know, as a lawyer and as all the things that have happened to me, that this is what I'm supposed to be doing and teaching people how to negotiate with narcissists. And so that is what I do. And so that is the name of my book, and that is what.

I.

Am doing now. So the. The. The strategy piece is the S for for slay is S is strategy, L is leverage. A is anticipate what the narcissist is going to do and be two steps ahead of them. And then Y is focused on you. And the Y piece is actually in two parts. One which is you being on the offensive. And then you and your mindset. 99% of a negotiation is won before you even walk into the room. And so I spend a lot of time on you and your mindset and you and negotiating your best life. And I always say that the very first negotiation that you do in a day is the one that you do with yourself when you wake up in the morning, because you know you have to have the right mindset first thing in the morning. And so that is what slay is. Slay, your negotiation with a narcissist. And there's a lot that goes into that, but that. That's what it is.

I'm excited. I really am. I mean, like, again, you. You've. I think you've touched the nerve with so many folks that I think at some level we have all experienced and, or experiencing a narcissistic behavior system out of someone else. You know, I think one of the things that's always gotten me in trouble is I've been told I wear my heart on my sleeve and I have a big heart. So with those two things in common in the times that I've gotten addressed, I guarantee you that I've been quote, love bomb back into a relationship because I made to feel like, you know, it's my fault or, you know, I'm somehow not helping them or hurting them. And it has made me kind of wonder, is it possible for a narcissist themselves to get healing? And I'm not sure if your work has taken you down that pathway yet, but is there ever a point that yes, you can believe that the narcissist is working on themselves to heal themselves or kind of somehow get themselves into a better position? To be normal is not, I guess the right word, but be a higher functioning adult.

I.

They say that they really aren't able to be rehabilitated unless, you know, they hit bottom and you know, because they're not self aware and so, you know, they would have to be, you know, go into deep therapy and do all the things that narcissists have to do. And they.

Yeah, which is admitting you're wrong, I guess. Admitting there's a problem.

Exactly. And you know, by their very nature they just don't do that. So you know, in general. No, I mean, I just tell people, don't sit around and wait for that. You know, I really, that's why I tell people to focus on themselves. You know, I always say there's always going to be narcissists in this world. They are always going to be toxic. So that's why you need to focus on you, you being on the offensive. You know, I always say that football teams don't score points on the defense, they score on the offense.

That's true. That's very true.

Right. And so focus on you and that's how you end up winning. So. And by the way, narcissists do target empaths because that's how they get supply, you know, and one of the things I often say is they don't, they don't attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much. I mean, you know, they don't, they don't want the clearance rack stuff, they want the good stuff.

Right.

You know, I mean, that's, you know, they're not stupid. They're opportunists.

Yeah.

You know, so think about that. You know, even though they're devaluing you.

Yeah.

So.

You just need to shift that dynamic and really remember that the narcissist is way more afraid of you than you are of them. And so when you're shifting that dynamic, it's just a matter of righting that ship. I kind of think of it as turning that ship around. So I always say, step one, don't run, step two, make a U turn, and step three, break free. And so you're just kind of turning it around. It just takes some baby steps. But, you know, that's what I teach you how to do.

Well, and we got. We have to have a coach for that because I can tell you it doesn't come natural. Right. When you've been going down a certain direction with a relationship, whether it's business or personal, for any number of years or months or weeks even, it's really hard to turn around and stand your ground, so to speak. Like, and then know what to do in that moment to not get, you know, the. The backup. So I'm thinking about the one, the one or two that I've seen that when challenged, they went from like, influence or manipulation into full blown rage. Anger.

Correct.

Yeah. Which is dangerous.

It takes baby steps. And that's why, you know, it didn't. You weren't conditioned overnight and you're. You're having to condition them back, you know, but it's like having a baby who is having a tantrum, you know, and when toddlers have tantrums, you're conditioning them to stop having the tantrum. But they're always the worst right before they're ready to give up. Same thing. And that's what you are doing with a narcissist. Same thing.

I love it. Rebecca, you're amazing. I can't appreciate you so much for stepping into this. I mean, the fact that you have the response that you've gotten over the last several years of stepping into this with your full heart, I think just goes to show that this world needs this message. It needs this next level. There are a lot of really good people that are getting really injured on a regular basis because they don't have the tools and the skills that you provide, both on your channel as well as slay. Right. So where can everybody find out more about you and how to connect and then obviously more about Slayer?

Yeah. So I'm on Instagram and I'm on YouTube. Definitely check out my YouTube channel. And also if anybody wants to pre order my book, they can do that. Slaythebully.com I have lots and lots of bonuses there, including even though the book doesn't come out till October, if you pre order now, you can actually get an entire manuscript. You can get lots of bonuses, including a masterclass and things that are worth up to close to $400, I think. So go to slaythebully.com and grab that. And my YouTube channel is Rebecca Zung Esq, I think. And then as well, you can find me on Instagram at Rebecca sung. So. And TikTok even now.

So rock on. Well, I know it's going to do terrific because again, I think the world needs it. But thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate you big time.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. You are amazing.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that for sure. All right, guys, that'll gonna do it for today's Unstoppable with Stephen, and we'll talk to you soon. Take care. I hope you liked that video. And if you did, make sure you check out this next video right here.