Leadership Expert Explains This One Strategy To Become A POWERFUL Leader | Tara Jaye Frank

If you define leadership as the top, as being number one, I think it's hard to embrace that philosophy that great leaders know when to step aside.

Guys, help me welcome the one and only Tara J. Frank. How are you doing?

I am so good. I am so good. It is wonderful to be here with you. Thank you for inviting me.

Yeah, I had to look, you're. Your thought leadership has been. Is profoundly affecting the marketplace right now. It's funny, as I was doing more and more research on everything you've been doing, I've realized how.

Broadcasting you've been recently in the media, like blog after blog and article. Like you're being pulled in all these different directions. Right. Just because of the wisdom that you're bringing to the marketplace. I want to kind of start off, I guess is the best way to say it and what it takes to create loyalty in a healthy brand or business.

Yeah. Wow. Well, loyalty in a healthy brand or business, as I think you definitely know, is really about relationships, which is the heart of the work that I do when I work with leaders on workplace anyway. But yeah, creating a genuine connection. For me, it's all about reciprocity. So I am genuinely curious about everyone with whom I interact. The people in my communities, the people I work with, the people on my team, and I think the more genuinely curious we can be and showing interest and respect. Right. To other people, it builds that loyalty over time. And I've had the pleasure of building some really sustainable relationships just in social media, honestly.

Yeah. Now in regards to those relationships, what are some techniques and strategies? Is the wrong word, but maybe it's what are some ways in which we should pure an honest, authentic relationship and building it, whether it be in the marketplace or through social or whatever. Because I find that a lot of folks, especially when you engage with them the first time, it's all about what can you do for them rather than like building an honest relationship.

Yeah. This is the million dollar question. Right. What I have found in my work and both in my personal life is that every single person wants to feel seen, respected, valued and protected. And so for me, I try to remember that, that people want to feel visible. They don't want to believe that they're invisible to you, that they don't matter to you, that they're kind of fading into the background. So I try to make people feel seen or help them feel seen. They want to be respected not only for their personhood, but also for what they know, you know, for what they do, for what they contribute, the ideas they have and so I try really hard to show that respect to people when they do share ideas with me, or when they reach out or offer advice or a point of view. And then on the valued part, I mean, that's kind of self explanatory. Every single one of us wants to feel that we matter. And ultimately the protection piece is about creating a little bit of psychological safety so that people can be honest, they can be vulnerable, they can be themselves.

Yeah, well, I find that, you know. You know, in building multiple businesses myself, one of the difficulties I've had is always trying to communicate to my team or to my leadership team their value to me in a way that they understand. Right. Because I. Because I, you know, I understand my value in a different way. Talk to us a little bit about how we can kind of lean their direction and kind of build value from that angle.

Yeah, I love that. So have you read the Five Love Languages?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Gary Chapman, love that book. And I gotta tell you, when I first started thinking about what employees need in the workplace, that book came to mind first for me. Because what I realized is, you know, I may feel valued in a certain way, but it's most important for me to get a good sense of what other people value, what makes them feel loved, what makes them feel respected and cherished. And so for me, that's a discovery process. Like when I'm working with other people, I just try to ask what motivates you, what makes you feel valued, what makes you feel important and truly part of the team. And that's part of that curiosity, that genuine curiosity that I spoke about earlier. So. So yeah, the Five Love Languages is such a wonderful book, as you know, but it's also a really good proxy for how to build meaningful relationships today and make sure people feel valued in a way that matters to them, not to me. I mean, if you send me chocolate, I feel valued. That's not necessarily gonna get done.

For everybody else, I'll take donuts, but it's okay. Exactly.

We all have our thing.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let me ask you this. I wanna park here for just a second. Cause one of the things that just dawned on me is occasionally I've had team members where I will ask them questions to then get feedback to try to better understand them and kind of how they perceive value, what is meaningful to them. And on occasion, I may not get a lot of feedback. I may get a lot of blank stares. Is there something that maybe as a leader I might be doing wrong or that I can prove upon or Is it? I just simply, I need to be patient with that person and let them come at their own pace.

First of all, I love this question. I love this question. A couple things that come to mind for me. One is I like to encourage leaders to ask this question, is there anything I can be doing differently to better enable the team? When we as a leader, because of this hierarchy, and even if we want to do away with it, it's really difficult to do. If we ask a person on our team, how am I doing?

Immediately, they're going to be nervous about saying anything other than great. When we ask pointed questions like what can I be doing differently to better enable the team? That kind of specificity is going to cause them to ask themselves differently. Right. Like when I think differently, what comes to mind for me, when I think enable the team, what comes to mind for me versus them? Feeling like they're just, you know, giving you a carte blanche kind of indictment on how good a leader you are or not. The other thing I encourage leaders to do is really establish psychological safety contracts up front.

Yeah. So to me, what that looks like is, let's say you join my team and I say to you, it's great to have you on the team. I want to share with you a little bit about the kind of leader I aspire to be. And then I kind of share detail and I say, look, I'm giving you permission right now, right here, to let me know if my behavior or my decisions don't align with the kind of leader I just said I aspire to be. So if you ever see anything that feels weird or looks weird and it's not in alignment with what I just described, I'm asking you to let me know because that's going to help me be a better leader. If you open that door in the very beginning, before there's any drama or miscommunication or difficulties, it's much easier for people to walk through that door when they see something that really would be informative for you to know.

Yeah, no, I think that's really good. I was thinking one of the questions that I used to ask and right, wrong or indifferent, especially of my executive leaders. Right. Because I've. I've been on a leadership journey for a number of years. I was a horrible leader up front because obviously I didn't have any education on my GED and I didn't have any training. I was just bootstrapping my business and trying to figure out as I went along. Right. So no one taught me how to do anything.

Right?

And then I went to a seminar, got my teeth kicked in for about three days, and came back. And I was like, everybody, we're changing everything. Right? But one of the questions that they said during that seminar, which I thought was pretty powerful, but when I heard you articulate what you just said, it made me think. I wonder if I had a limiting belief actually in the question. And the question they had me do was, how am I failing you as a leader?

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So how am I failing? And it's. It's one that I've asked many times to, you know, be very vulnerable and transparent and try to get a little extra right. And I've. I've got about 70% of the people are. Will answer it. About 30% will kind of like going back to that point, like, I'm not going to tell the guy he sucks right now because he'll fire me or something. You know, even though that's not the.

Intent, that's fascinating to me. Like, I'm actually really happy for you that you got a 70% hit rate with that question. You know what comes to mind for me, to be honest, like, if I went home and asked my husband, does this dress make me look fat?

Ooh, yeah.

I ask, how am I failing you as a leader? To me, that feels similar to that question. So I'm like, good for you for getting a 70% hit rate. Wonder, like, gender balance. I'm like, the 70%, were they mostly men? Were they a mix of men?

Actually, they were. They were mostly female.

Were they?

Which I appreciated very much. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that, that. Honestly, though, it never just starts with that question. Like, that tells me whatever you did before that point to establish a foundation of trust allowed them to answer you honestly. A lot of people, a lot of leaders don't really fully establish that init. Foundation of trust. And so a question like that isn't going to yield them much. But if you're already doing that, then you can ask almost anything. And for the most part, people will tell you the truth.

Well, how would I rephrase that question to get maybe a 90% hit rate? Because at the end of the day, I learned a long time ago that the businesses don't build themselves. Right. As strong as Elon Musk might be, the dude cannot build a single car without other people in the building. Right. He can't send a rocket to the moon without. Or rocket to the moon. You've been there yet. But orbit and back, right. Without people. So I'm always aspiring to be a better leader, right? Always. So how can I rephrase that question? To maybe inspire them to be a little more forthcoming?

Yeah. I would just say, as I kind of mentioned earlier, what am I doing as a leader that is helpful to the team, and what am I doing as a leader that's making work difficult for the team? So it's really about enablement. Like, I like to take it away from the person, you know, from. Like, am I a good leader or a bad leader? Am I doing the right thing or the wrong thing? It's really about enablement. How am I effectively enabling you in the team? How might I be unconsciously disabling the team? Because what you're going to hear back there are just choices and behaviors, right? Choices you're making that might be helpful or harmful or behaviors you're exhibiting that might be helpful or harmful. And to me, that's really what gives us the information we need to lead. Not just you think I'm good or bad, but what am I doing to be helpful or harmful?

Yeah, that's so good. You know, I was thinking, you know, when I was in this journey of becoming a leader, which is a continuing evolution, right. It never stops.

The point in which I got the most feedback was actually the point. The point in which I was the most honest with them, basically saying, hey, guys, this is my background. This is where I come from. This is probably why I act the way I do. But I. This is the. You said it earlier. This is the leader I aspire to be. This is who I want to become. Hook a brother up and tell me what I'm doing. Like, you know, what's. What's my blind spot here? And it was. But it was that engagement that began to really transition and begin to work in my heart and my mind to then follow the behaviors kind of after that. The other thing that happened, interestingly enough, was, especially in this. This is a. This will come in a form of a question in a second.

The.

In that moment, I spent about six months of trying to do everything that a good leader was supposed to do. Asking questions, being involved to the extent in which I was encouraging, et cetera. But even after six months, the people that I had kind of accidentally wounded along the way still hadn't yet thought in their mind or their heart that, oh, he's really changing, right? So if you've been a doofus as a leader like I've been before, and you're trying to do the right things, how can we encourage those leaders to keep going.

First of all, there are so many amazing points in what you just said that I want to go back a second, if that's okay.

Absolutely.

Unpack something. So you mentioned that one of the times you got the best feedback is when you had essentially decided to be vulnerable. So I like to remind leaders that we always have to set the tone Right. Ourselves that we really want to create. So if you're asking for vulnerability and transparency from people, the best way to get that is to give that. And I think your story is such a perfect example. Another thing you said is sometimes we're trying to show up as a certain kind of leader, but maybe we've wounded people along the way. One of the things I talk about all the time is that any workplace culture, any entity, honestly, there are three levels to culture. There's kind of the claim or who we say we are. And then there are the policies or the rules we put in place to reinforce who we say we are. But then there are our norms. And those are the things we do every single day, the things we say every single day that teach people who we really are. This is true on an individual leader level, it's true on a team level, and it's true on an organizational level. So what happens is we may go into an environment and say, I am a compassionate leader. And then we may have flex work policies to demonstrate that we're compassionate. We. But if somebody comes into our office and asks a question and we shut them down or cuss at them or say, what are you doing here? Or why aren't you working? Our norm does not support our claim.

Yeah.

So we have to recognize that it's our day in and day out engagement with people that really does create their workplace reality. And so if we want to change that, because maybe we've done it unconsciously and we've created an environment that's not safe, that's where we have to change it. And we have to realize that that takes time.

Yeah.

So any relationship I describe as a series of pleasant interactions over time, if someone's had a series of unpleasant interactions with us over time, the only way to overcome it is by first acknowledging it, by owning it, by declaring what we want to do, moving forward, and then realizing we need to create a series of pleasant interactions over time. So they actually believe it.

Yeah. I mean, it took a good another three or four months for people to see that it had been consistent. And I had to realize to myself that I didn't wound them overnight. Therefore it wasn't going to have the healing overnight. Right. But yet I think as all leaders, I think we, we aspire to be something. A lot of times we're not that thing, but we're too close to the fire, right? Where people have to give us a bit of a reflector to kind of get us there. I want to pivot just a little bit. There's an important conversation happening right now in the US that has been needed for a long time. That's the subject of inclusivity. And I love a lot of the work that you've done on this. In fact, one of the quotes that I've actually heard you say is, if diversity is about being seen and equity is about being valued, what does that truly mean? So how do we truly show up and create an inclusive and diverse work environment while simultaneously holding people accountable to the standard of the position in which they hold?

Yes, this is the million dollar question. Honestly, as I shared before and I tell people all the time, leading equitably and inclusively is about meeting four needs. People want to feel seen. And when I say that, I mean in all levels of leadership, in rooms where decisions are being made, they want to feel respected. And again, not only for who they are as a person, but also for what they contribute. They want to feel valued with pay and promotion and appreciation, quite frankly.

And.

And they want to feel safe to bring up those big ideas, to challenge the status quo, to raise concerns or red flags. That's what everybody wants. The reality is not everyone in our team, in our workplace, gets those needs met to the same degree.

That's where the inclusion piece and the equity piece comes into play. Because what we tend to do as leaders makes sense, right? We have affinity with people if somebody reminds us of ourselves, you know, because maybe they're also a man or they're also, you know, black, or they also went to the same school we went to, or they also grew up in the same part of the country we grew up in, or the same part of the world. If they remind us of ourselves, we tend to trust them more easily. We want to surround ourselves with them. And if I hold the power in an organization, which in most organizations in the U.S. white men do, if I hold the power, whoever is closest to me is going to benefit from that most naturally. So if you're really different from me, then that insight and that access that I hold as a powerful person isn't going to naturally trickle down to you. So people who are further removed don't get seen as often, they don't get respected for what they can contribute as often they don't get equitable outcomes and they often don't feel safe. So the paradigm shift for me is exactly that. Recognize we all have the same needs as humans, but not everybody is getting those needs met.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I was just thinking too, in regards to making sure people are fairly compensated, what we did as a company, and you can tell me if this is a good strategy or it can be improved upon, we decided to set the essential, what we call a KRA Key Results area. It's a overview of a job description along with your KPIs, your key performance indicators. We set that in stone. First, we assess the marketplace to figure out what the, what our industry norm is in our area, given the circumstances of our business, one of the businesses or whatever, and then before we ever actually go to the market to hire the candidates specifically, that's ironclads. No matter who feels the candidate, they know exactly what they're feeling. Is that, is that a good strategy?

It definitely is a good strategy. You know, I think the one thing, the more transparent, honestly, you can be about hay ranges, et cetera, whether that's internally or with people who are interviewing, the better. Because when we are clear about what a certain job is worth to us, right, the value associated with a job, then it shouldn't matter how much money you made before this, etc. If you're going to do this job, you should do it for this value. So I think that's really important to be clear about that. But it's also, it's not only about what we do, it's also about what we don't do. So this whole question we've all grown up with, well, how much money did you make before? What was your last salary? Since women over time, and especially women of color have been paid so inequitably over the years, that question clearly gives us a very faulty anchor. Yeah, right. And so those are some of the things we need to be mindful because.

You'Re already starting at a lower barrier than just by saying, hey, this is what I was at before, rather than the position is X.

That's exactly right. You're compounding the inequity. You're compounding it. Right. When we ask questions like that.

Yeah, we're using a service, I think it's called payscale, to kind of double check the marketplace. The one thing I'll just be candid with you and that we've had a difficulty in 2021 specifically, and I'm sure other businesses have. I have several businesses, the largest of which is mainly a large construction company.

Yep.

And the inflation rose at such a rate this year that our top line revenue couldn't keep up with it. So basically we were stuck at the end of the year trying to figure out how do we reward the team and say, hey, you're amazing, you're valuable, and also not put us in a financial pickle later on in the year. What kind of advice would you give to a business like that? Because I find that a lot of businesses have struggled in that scenario. We want to be inclusive, we want to be diverse, we want to make sure wages and respect and all that is equal and everybody's kind of seen on the same playing field. But then you, you have, you have a crash course in a marketplace like, ah, right. So what kind of advice do you have?

You know, Stephen, now I know why you're so successful. Because you ask such amazing questions. I could talk to you all day. Here's what I would say about that. What I learned in my research, especially that we did for the waymakers, is that people define value or equitable outcomes in lots of ways, not just one way. So pay is one way. Opportunity, promotion, visibility, movement, a chance to be on that big project, work for that really important client, do my best work and be free to do that. And appreciation are all important. It's not just the pay. I always say to leaders, if you're in a position where you can't give a pay increase, you better be sure that you are showing your appreciation for a job well done, that you're giving the person feedback, that you're being really specific about what you appreciate about their contribution, and that you're being as honest as you can about your capability at that moment in time to pay people more or to give them raises. If you are human with someone. Look, here's what I'd like to be able to do, here's what I'm actually able to do based on these circumstances. But I want you to know how much I appreciate you. And this is exactly why. And as we move toward the future. Right. These are the kinds of things I see for you moving forward.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I was just thinking too when you mentioned feedback. One of the things that I discovered as a business owner, which I didn't think of, you know, historically you do an annual review, an annual raise or merit increase, or, you know, whatever the policy is. What I discovered was the team would actually like to have feedback, at minimum, a quarterly basis, if not on a regular basis, which is a big. Which was a big culture shift in my brain, because I'm not looking for that level of affirmation and that level of validation. I'm too busy trying to get stuff done. Talk to me a little bit about why it's so important for us to do feedback more often for our teams.

Yeah. Some of this is generational as well, but I grew up, and I'm sure you did as well, in kind of a command and control era in the workplace. Like, this is your job. These are the responsibilities. Please go, do go perform these responsibilities. And once a year, we'll get together and I will articulate to you how well you did or did not do that, and we'll have a conversation. Now we're kind of in this collaborate and cultivate era where we're building our cultures as we go, and it's a very different energy than what I grew up in. The other piece of this is we're dealing with a generation who got, quite honestly, a lot more feedback as children and as young adults than many of us did. They got feedback and coaching and shaping and input along the way, and they're accustomed to that. And it also helps them know because of the pace of change. These are kids who've. I mean, the. How much things have changed in some 25 years. Like, it's unbelievable. Yeah. It's about the pace of change. The only way you stay on track when you're going really fast is to correct more frequently.

Yeah.

Think about. Do you like cars?

Oh, I love cars.

Well, my husband's like, a huge.

Especially the fast ones.

He's a huge car person.

Yeah.

And so I think about this as an example. If I'm driving 20 miles an hour, I can correct my steering wheel less frequently and still get to where I want to go. If I'm going 100 miles an hour, I need to be doing this and focused. I need to be doing this. Think about that. That's what these. That's what young adults are accustomed to. So in my opinion, if we want to really unleash them fully and fairly, that's what we, as leaders need to provide.

Yeah. No, it's so good. I love. I love that analogy, too. That is just amazing. Something else I love that you. That you have is called. I. You didn't call them the three piece. I call them the three piece because now. I use them now. Like. Yeah, I like. I like that kind of alliteration, kind of perspective, preparation, presence, and prayer.

Oh, yes.

How do we, how do we bring that into our, our daily lives and our work lives without getting off balance?

Wow. You know, I came up with that. Somebody was asking me about when I do public speaking, you know, how I get ready to do that. And I was saying I prepare, you know, and I pray, etc. But it's honestly such a good example of how we should lead today. Because guess what? The rules change all the time.

Yeah.

There was a time when there were, I mean, there was kind of a rule book. Right. Like this is how you see it at work. That doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah.

And as the rules change, we have to be agile, we have to change with them. So I think as leaders, we have to prepare by knowing and understanding what our people want, what they need, what it takes to help our businesses succeed. But then the presence piece is knowing that as much as we prepared, as many books as we may have read, as many conversations we may have had, nothing takes the place of being present with another person in the moment. Because I'm going to learn something, some new piece of information, some new insight that no book or no studying could have possibly taught me. And if I'm paying attention to you in this moment, yeah. I'm going to know how to respond more appropriately and how to do so more genuinely. The prayer, honestly, is when all the preparation and the presence in the world isn't helping.

I like that for me, sometimes I'm just like, this is above me.

Yeah.

Like this particular problem is above me. I don't have the answer. I've not experienced it before. I don't know exactly what to go do. And so I need to get some.

Intervention and with, with a greater, higher source that can make it a reality.

That's right.

I love it. Well, speaking of making a way where there is no way, let's talk a little about the Waymaker I've got. I've ordered my advanced copy. I can't wait to read it. I haven't gotten it yet. So what, what am I in for? What can I expect?

Wow. You know, I wrote the Waymakers for a couple of reasons. So in my work as an a workplace equity strategist, I work mostly with high level leaders and I noticed that many of them had three things in common. First, they wanted to do the right thing. Most of them do. Second, they didn't really know what the right thing was. And third, they felt kind of unsure about stepping into the work. And what I mean by that is this is a really hard thing to get wrong. No One wants to insult or offend or bring reputational risk upon themselves. And so the combination of those three things created a scenario where I believe leaders needed a much more focused and clear and practical guide to leading more equitably and inclusively. A waymaker is someone with a heart to lead, who recognizes that some people have been advantaged and others have maybe been disadvantaged, who opens doors of opportunity and removes barriers and ushers people through to greater levels of contribution. And who does so deliberately, who knows that if they don't do it.

Somebody else won't do it. Right. That's what a waymaker is. And so the waymakers Clearing the path to Workplace Equity with competence and Confidence. That subtitle is really intentional. I felt like, based on my work and my research, that what leaders needed most was the competence to lead equitably and inclusively and the confidence, like, you can do this. Come on, let's get off the fence. Right. We're kind of watching from our safe place. You know, I'm sure you've read the Tipping Point and you're very familiar with change theory, but anytime there's a major change, and we've all been in the midst of major change, you're always going to have some people on the front end like, let's go, let's change. And people on the other end like, don't touch my stuff.

Yeah, for sure.

But the majority of people are usually in the middle.

Yeah.

They're sitting on the fence, they're watching, they're waiting. They're trying to understand if they have a role to play and if so, what that role is. And the waymakers is my invitation for those people. It's saying, yes, you have a role to play. This is what your role is. I invite you to come off the fence into this arena with me so that we can create the kinds of workplaces we say we want.

Yeah. No, I think that's amazing. It's interesting. You know, one of the, one of the things that held me on the fence for longer than I would have liked to is not knowing how to engage competently and compassionately in the conversation. And our local church, they're really big on creating a multi ethnic moving, so they're very intentional about integrating people who normally wouldn't spend time with each other, get to know each other, do life together. And I forgot the name of the resource that we did, but we had one young lady that was. She was of mixed descent and said she grew up in an environment growing up where her African American descent That's more.

Structured. And her Caucasian mother, she got feedback from both families that she wasn't worthy or not enough because neither one wanted to accept the other side. How do we. How do. How do we. I mean, there's. There seems to be so much hurt in certain cases.

That it's very difficult as a leader or as anybody to kind of come off the fence and have a compassionate but a competent conversation. How do we do that without like really stepping the mess?

Yeah. So the first thing I will say, which sometimes isn't comforting to people, is that we're talking about being human. Each of us is human. We're having a human experience. Being a human being is not a black and white deal.

Agreed.

There is no way to do it without risk, without personal, relational risk. And so we can't necessarily do this work well without ever stepping in it. And if we can first embrace that, it might be a little bit inelegant, it might be difficult at first, but it is possible. That's going to help us.

Yeah.

So one of the things I talk about in the book is just don't expect it to be easy and clean.

And error free, because that's the first barrier, expecting that you can do it. The second thing I would say is.

Leaders can bring people together. I do this course called Building Bridges and it's basically.

Training that helps leaders understand, step by step, how to create a psychologically safe space where people can better understand where other people are coming from. It starts with establishing the purpose for the get together. We're here because we want to better understand each other's lived experiences. Our hoped for outcome is that we can collaborate even better as a team, that we can build trust, that we know we can rely on one another. You establish purpose and then you go through this exploration period where you're drawing out from people what their perspectives are, what their fears are, what their concerns are, what their hopes are, what their delights are, or what's really working for them. You can draw that out anonymously if people need that safety, or you can just facilitate a conversation. And once you do that and you start to get some of those fears out, some of those hopes out, you can then ask everybody, what does great look like for us?

Yeah.

If we were to collectively, from scratch, design a workplace climate that worked for all of us and that worked well, what would that feel like? Once you get people starting to dream.

About a preferred future, you can get anyone there because you're developing a shared right view of what it looks like to do this. Well, and from there it's just a matter of, well, how are we going to have to behave and order to get there? What does each of us need from each other? What are we willing to commit? So I have a whole, like, building bridges model that I built.

I can't wait to see it. I'm still waiting for my reserved copy.

I'm just saying it's hard, you know, it is hard. You. You will get your copy. And I'm so sorry that you don't have it yet.

It's all good. Like, I'm. I'm excited about it. I've loved our conversation. I've already gotten a lot from it. You know, one of the things I jotted down as you were talking is, is it's kind of a running theme that it seems like the conversation should progress at the speed of trust.

Yes.

Right. And trust is built with intentionality. It's built with compassion. It's built with asking about the fears. Asking like. I had a young man that's still working with me today and one of my businesses that I actually witnessed for the first time. I never, like, witnessed witness from, in my history. Direct racism.

Yeah.

And I got so mad for him.

Yep.

Like, I just. Anyway, there's just. Yeah. I'm glad we're having this conversation now. It's. It's been long overdue regarding all types of inclusivity to make sure all types of things are balanced. And we can. We can actually build the healthy community we're supposed to be building. But goodness gracious, do you also have that?

I mean, that's the highest call. Right? That's the highest call, I believe, on our lives.

And especially as leaders love one another.

Yeah.

As you love yourself. I mean, it's. It's been in the book for a long, long time putting that out there. But.

And somehow we are on the struggle bus with that.

I think that's part of our humanity. Right. Is to stay on the struggle bus a little longer. We have to. This. You also had this. This one quote that I thought was really profound. And you probably said it passing you, because you just drop nuggets all day long. Like, you may not have even picked up on it. And I hope I get to find a little more explanation in the book. But while I got you here, this comment said, great leaders know when to step aside. Great leaders know when to step aside. That is such a profound statement because I see people holding on to leadership positions that they know they're not qualified for from a emotional level, from a. From A structural level. Like they've reached the pinnacle of what they currently know.

That's right.

So how do we help great leaders step aside? I've had to step aside several times that I just wasn't ready. Like I've. I wasn't ready to take a specific business at this level just yet. I wasn't ready.

So I think it all comes back to how we define leadership as well. So if you define leadership as control, if you define leadership as decision rights, if you define leadership as the top as being number one, I think it's hard to embrace that philosophy that great leaders know when to step aside. If you, however, define leadership as casting a vision, helping other people believe in that vision, cultivating the talent in your charge to the point where they can be fully unleashed and give maximum contribution, then you recognize those moments when someone else's gifts might serve the ultimate outcome better than your own.

Sometimes it wasn't always true, but it becomes true. Like there's that moment when you realize as a leader, you know what, yeah, this person, I was a good leader for this time, but when I consider where we're going, this person is a better leader for that time.

Yeah.

And so sometimes stepping aside is that really bold move that says, I'm going to recuse myself from this position so the better person for now can come into it. But sometimes it's not that deep. Sometimes it's just a matter of we're working on this project and I'm telling everybody what to do. But you know what? My team, they have good ideas here. Does this have to be done the way I would do it?

Yeah.

Or can it be done the way they want to do it, which will give them a greater sense of ownership and still get us to the desired outcome.

Yeah. I think it seems to be a traditional style versus, and we use this terminology within my organization, the transformational style. Traditional is top down.

Yeah. Everybody control, right?

Yeah, exactly. Everybody follow the leader. Even though the leader. The what is the what is the what is the old analogy.

Gosh, what is it? If. If you follow a blind person, it makes the whole world blind or something along the. Something along those lines. I totally botched that. But anyway, it kind of makes me think of that. You know, I've. I've been in an environment even recently where I was working with a team member and the team member. What I feel like. Felt like they were articulated to me is they're more. They feel like they're more accustomed with leaders do this, leaders do this, leaders do that. My What I shared from my heart was I. I have noticed a better leadership style out of me when I, when I take the, when I take the emphasis off of me.

Yes.

Right. So that, that whole mentality, I've learned that my job as a leader is to bring out the best in other people, period.

That's it.

So, so is that at the essence, what a, what a great leader is going to. To become?

Yeah, I mean, I think so. And it really is so aligned to, with, you know, how I think about waymakers. Like, pause for a second. If you think about your own career, and I know you've had a really unique and powerful career path because you made a way for yourself in so many ways, but still, if we think about our entire trajectory, there was someone or some people along the way who gave us information that we didn't have, who gave us insight that we didn't have, who brokered a connection that we didn't have, who made a way somehow for us, who opened a door. Right. And helped us grow toward our ultimate career aspiration. And for me, that idea of bringing out the best in people is so connected to that. That is what waymakers do. Waymakers go even one step further and say, I want to hold a mirror to you to help you see what's amazing in you. I want to help you leverage that. I want to draw it out. And then guess what? You also need to know this person.

Yeah.

And we also need to put you on this succession list. And we also need to give you this job so that you can demonstrate your agility. We need to give you a chance and place a bet on you. Right. So, yes, leaders bring out the best in people, and then they also really intentionally leverage it.

Yeah. No, that's so good. It's actually happening right now in my life with my other businesses there. There are people that have watched me.

From their perspective, said, you did the right thing when nobody was looking, but we were looking.

Right.

And so now they're in the process of opening a handful of doors. I know you've experienced the same thing, which has happened repeatedly throughout my career. I am curious as we get ready to wrap things up, as much as I don't want to.

When it comes to the waymakers. Right. I'm a big. As an author myself, I believe that certain, certain works call you to them like this. This work says, I need you to write me. Right. And I need you to write me to serve this person or that person or this person.

What about waymakers called you to write? To write It. And who did you write it for?

Oh, man, I.

This is such a profound question that I wish, like, I had a whole night to think about it. But here's what I'll say. I wrote it for every person who has been marginalized, cast aside, underestimated, disenfranchised somehow, so that the people who lead them can see them in a new way, can create more opportunity for them to give them a chance to go to work and fulfill their highest aspiration. The book is written for them as the end user, but as that front end user. It's every leader who wants that too. They just don't know how to cultivate it, you know, so there's like, there's an end recipient and then there's kind of that front end user who wants to lead more equitably and inclusively, but they just don't know how and what called me to this book. This book did call me. Honestly, I knew a couple years ago that I needed to write a book. I was waiting for God to tell me about what. And as I was working with CEOs and their executive teams post George Floyd, I recognized people want to do better. They just don't know how and they need encouragement. And so that is the book I set out to write because I truly do want our workplaces to be better for everyone.

Yeah. Well, you figure we spend most of our time in the workplace.

We do.

Right. So if it's your greatest influence is going to be in the workplace. So why not create the workplace that you want?

Amen.

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. Everybody's got to check it. Check out the book. Where can everybody find it?

Well, they can find the Waymakers on Amazon. That is a really helpful place for them to.

Yeah, right. What's next, I might add.

Yeah, right, right. But it's also, you know, in other booksellers as well, anywhere books are sold. And. Yeah, I'm just. I hope people not only read it, but use it. Yeah, no, that's what I keep saying. Right. Please don't just read it, use it.

Well, think about it this way. You're going to do very well with the book and you're going to touch a lot of lives. And Even if only 10% or 15% use it, you've already affected world change.

Oh, thank you so much. It is so wonderful to spend time with you and be in this space. I really appreciate the invitation.

Likewise. No, I would have you back anytime. I hope you're having a good one.

You, too. Take care.

All right. Take care.

Bye. Bye.

Now, if you like this content that you just got through watching, I know you're going to love this one right here. So check it out.

The moment you stop saying I can't and I have to, you really remove yourself as the victim. In your language, you start to put everything in alignment. Once you're telling yourself the truth, you start to live according to that truth.