SURPRISING SCIENCE Behind How Water Can HEAL THE BODY & MIND! | Bonnie Tsui

Just existing, existence, sense that we need. That we need to feel like we're part of something bigger. Because otherwise, what's it all for?

How did you discover how healing and how wonderful this water. Water. And being immersed in water is? Like, the way you write about it is just like, it's poetry and beauty and like, I'm just like. I can feel you, like, in the water as I'm reading.

You mean how good this whole water thing is for us? Yeah, you know, that's such a good question. You know, one of the things that I kept going back to in researching the book was understanding how far back in humanity are under, you know, our understanding as a species of how healing water is, you know, even.

Though we didn't know the science behind it. You know, the ancient Egyptians, the Chinese, like, just all of these ancient civilizations had all of these rituals around bathing and, you know, cold plunges, like, you know, hot sea water baths. All these, like, the Greeks in the room, you know, they had crazy things that they did. And I think what they really understood is that it felt good. You know, it felt healing. It felt like a salve in many ways, both mind and body. And what we are understanding at this particular phase of humanity's development is that, you know, we understand certain changes happen physiologically and also psychologically when we are immersed in water and, you know, different temperatures, different mineral content of water. And I think that's fascinating. It's just like one part of this long arc, this long narrative of our relationship with the water and with swimming.

Yeah. I've got this really good friend. He's probably in your circles because he loves being in the water. His name is Dean hall, and he's huge in the cold water immersion. Actually experienced a total cancer remission while doing cold water immersion up in the. I think he's up in the Oregon area. At least that's where he spends a lot of time. And I hadn't thought much about how impactful water can be. I, for one, I just enjoy the water when I'm in it kind of scenario. Like, I just.

It's.

It's like a Zen place for me.

Yeah.

But to hear him talk about it, I had never thought about the temperature of the water mattering whether or not it's. It's. It's got its own flow. If it's stagnant. Like, talk to us a little bit about, like, what you learned about water and how it relates to our. Honestly, our spirituality in many respects. Like, it's crazy.

Yeah. Well, I kind of want to get back to that, just healing, you know. One of the central stories in why we swim is Kim Chambers, right? So she is now a world record holding marathon swimmer who swam from the Farallon to San Francisco. Right. So she. But before that, I mean, she only started swimming because as rehab from almost losing her leg to amputation after an accident. Right. And you know, she talks so profoundly to me about how when she started to learn how to walk again, you know, years to kind of learn to walk normally again, and she was here in San Francisco and kind of starting to come back out into the world and thinking, okay, swimming is a way to, I don't know, like, try to feel better, right?

Yeah.

She had the sense of like when she was a kid that, that in growing up in New Zealand, like visiting her grandparents at the beach, she's just like, I remember that joy and freedom in the water, feeling like a broken, land bound, gravity bound person that she, that something, you know, being in the water could help her. And so she wasn't a swimmer, but she started swimming. And then some people she met in the pool said, like, come to Aquatic park and you know, in San Francisco and swim in the bay with us, you know, San Francisco Bay. She's like, who does that? It's freezing. I never heard of this. And of course, you know, now she tells the story of like.

Most people don't have video footage of their rebirth, right? And she said, I have that. She said that first day when she plunged into like, I don't know, 50 something ° water in Aquatic park.

She said her friends were taking a video of her and she said, you know, here's this like shivering, you know, broken woman and she's just like laughing and feeling like so joyous. She immediately joined the Dolphin Club, South End Roman clubs, these like premier swimming clubs here in San Francisco. And she also realized that over the months that she was swimming in the bay, that she asked her doctor, she said, you know, I'm feeling more, I have more feeling in my leg. In the leg that she almost lost. Like the nerve endings were kind of growing back. She's like, is there something to that? With the cold water stimulating blood flow to the extremities. And the doctors were kind of like, you know, that theory sort of makes sense. And so, you know, in that part of the book on well being, I kind of ask all these doctors, like I ask all these scientists, is there something to that and circulation and all that. And you know, there is. And so there's this, this wonderful sense of like, this person knew that, you know, felt that something was happening with her that was healing. Not just, of course, with her body, but her spirit, like you were talking about. And then, you know, I thought, okay, well, that's a good question. What do the doctors and scientists and researchers have to say? And it's like. It's all this, like, wonderful, flowing, coming together, where. Yeah. Like, the answer is yes. There are lots of things we don't yet understand, but we're beginning to.

Yeah. I mean, some of the takeaways from the book specifically is, you know, the aging.

Yes.

Joint recovery, better blood flow.

Right.

I would dare say lower stress, just. Just from the sheer fact of actually just enjoying. I mean, I'm just A personal story real fast is.

Yeah.

I'd gone. I'd never really been out of the North Carolina area for the longest time, and early in my business career, I had the opportunity to go on a trip to Maui for the first time. Right. And, of course, Maui in February. Right. So I'd never been there before. Didn't know what to expect.

Got in the water to do some basic snorkeling and literally could hear the whales singing. It was the most beautiful sound to this day that I have ever heard. And knowing that the whales are miles offshore, it was like I had earbuds in my head.

Mm.

And I wanted to stay under the water for as long as I possibly could, just because it was so harmonic and so beautiful, you know? And I think about stuff like that. And a lot of times when, you know, if I go to the. Our beach on, obviously on the east coast or if I'm heading to a lake or something like that, I love the water. My wife would say, I hop in. I hop in no matter where we're at. And when I started hearing you talk about the science behind why we're in the water and why we're swimming and all this kind of stuff, I was like, that makes so much sense.

Right.

That's why I can't stay out of the water.

Right. Can I just tell you that story that you just told about the whales? I. I was picturing you having, like, this direct line, like, on the phone to the whales. Like, just, like, dive in and just, you know, listening to them chatting. You know, it's like a party line, you know, it was.

I mean, it was an incredible experience. I've mentioned it before, doing various keynotes that I've done. You know, when I'm talking about the power of just, you know, wanting more, desiring more, and, you know, I've always used the story in that context to help people understand that, you know, pretty much whatever future they want, they can build. Right. As I was reading why We Swim though, I was like, that story is just as impactful or just as powerful, if not more powerful based on what it was doing to my heart while I was in the water. And I, and I use the word heart as in soul, like in.

Yeah.

Like I had never. To this day I can still remember. I mean It's. This is 20 years ago.

Yeah.

It is so vivid still in my brain.

I mean I think that what, you know, what I hear when you're telling that story is okay, not just the buoyancy and just the feeling of like how it feels good. Right. Physically, but that you're somehow. It was you receiving spiritually that you're, you know, the connectivity which we don't. We feel connectivity a different way. Right. So oftentimes that's like a barrage of like media and technology and all that. But like what you're describing is this very elemental like in all of the senses of the word, of not only being outside of what your normal comfort zone is, which is on land.

Right.

Just, just because that's who we are as human beings. But to go into this. What I love about water is that this instant portal into like an alien.

Environment so much is. Oh my gosh.

And then you scuba diving so much.

Like I go to a different planet. I mean I've seen some of the most amazing things and scary things while being sure. I saw a grouper one time, it was as big as a bus. That was. Just wasn't expecting that. So.

Yeah, so I think that we are all kind of. We, we don't realize that we're all seeking connection in this way until we encounter it. And then we realize again, like you described in this heart sense, in this like spiritual just existing existence sense that we need, that we need to feel like we're part of something bigger. Because otherwise what's it all for? Right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it literally felt like an out of body experience. Like that's how vivid it was. And it also, you know, it, it caused me to invest more of my time in the water. Every time I travel nowadays, I'm always going scuba diving or going somewhere and I just want to see, you know.

I want to share. I mean you just reminded me of this. What I was thinking about just this morning is that I went. I was just in Hawaii on the big island for my brother in law's wedding, which Is, you know, really one of the first trips we've really taken in forever. In forever. That was like, you know, forward looking. It was, it was hopeful, right? It was optimistic because like it's a wedding and it was, you know, not for reasons that were, you know, someone's sick and you have to go see them because it's, you know, it's been that kind of a last year and a half for so many of us. But of course, you know, Hawaii is a very special place to me. And I got in the water and I started to swim and it's totally, you're going to love this because it's really the kind of thing that you were just talking about where I almost hit a turtle.

And I'm like, you know, running head first and I'm just like, whoa. And I'm laughing because it's just this big, ancient, majestic creature just kind of like slowly swimming along glides. Yeah, gliding like flying, it's like the slow flying glide. And I just, just to be in proximity to that creature.

For a while, just swimming along next to each other was that calmed me, that made me feel, you know, I had this like shit eating grin on my face for a long time because it was just like awe and wonder do that to us. And I think swimming is.

So beautifully a way to that feeling. It's like a shortcut to that feeling that we, we do not get enough of.

Yeah, it's interesting to know that because, you know, it's, you know, we're here, we are, we're sharing stories about how beautiful the water has touched our lives in a different way. But yet there are so many people who are terrified of the water, of being in the water. Right. So in all your research and all the, all the work that you've been doing, have you been able to uncover kind of what's keeping them out of the water? I mean, clearly the, clearly why we swim can help them get in the water.

But I mean, you probably noticed this reading the book that one of the chief preoccupations is fear and you know, the sort of flip side of this, like.

Appeal of the water and it's, and, and how it embraces us is what drives us to get in it in the first place. If it's something that can kill us so easily and we're not born instinctively knowing how to swim. So we have to, we have to work, we have to be taught as humans to swim, how to swim. And yet somehow we keep teaching us that knowledge is important, that we keep passing it on right. We keep teaching generations and generations of people to swim. And if you don't know how to do it, you're on the other side of it. You're like gripped by the fear and the aversion to something that also you feel calls to you because it's really beautiful. You know, we, you just look at the coast where all the houses are built out by the ocean, right? Where the river, the lakes are, whatever. And even if we don't call ourselves swimmers, we want that, right? There's something about it that is calling to us. And.

I think so many people really overcame a lot of their fears and especially of open water in this pandemic because it was often the only water that was available to them to get into when all the pools closed and still remained closed.

So I have heard from so many people about, you know, how they never would get into the pond or the lake or the river or the ocean because they were, they were scared of whatever it was that was going to get them. You know, it's a very amorphous not.

I just had a random thought, I mean, total squirrel thought. But I was just thinking to myself, you know what? Those that are going into bud should probably read why we swim, because that way they wouldn't be so terrified of sitting there freezing to death in the water as they're getting their training. I don't know why I thought that.

I mean, but it is real, right? Because it occupies this part of our brain and consciousness that is very primordial. It is totally deep seated. But I think one of the biggest things with overcoming that is learning how to relax in the water and like let the water buoy you and to work with the water and float. And I think the fighting of it is what gets people panicked and then the breathing, you know, that they don't under, they don't know yet how to relax into the water and let the water support them and how that's the key to actually becoming a good, comfortable and efficient swimmer is to actually not to work so hard and like, you know, muscle your way through it. You have to, you actually have to give yourself over to it. And I think that's super hard. I mean, we sound like a therapy session. It's like a quiet therapy, right?

Well, I mean, but that's the reason, I mean, the reason that we're, I think we kind of headed down this path is because it can be such a beautiful experience. But water is one of those things that you can't push against it, right? If you push against it. It absorbs you. However, if you flow with it, it can. Can. It can take you, like it, you know, take you to a good place, let's say a bad place, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it has so many different attributes. You know, what was it Bruce Lee said once that it feels. It goes into a cup, it becomes the cup, you know, but it's. It's strong enough to penetrate rock.

Yeah.

Like, I forgot. I'm not. I totally jacked up his quote. But it was. That's what's coming in my head.

Water thing. You know, you have to kind of. It has the power yet to, like, erode and carve out through, you know, granite, and yet it's soft. You know, it can be the thing that buoys you up, but it also can be the thing that sinks you. Right. So it's. It's a very compelling metaphor for all kinds of ideas. And I think that's what is so fascinating and alluring about it. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I'm going to mess this up. And please don't tell your friend to get mad at me, but. Gulf Lunderson. No, don't. I say his name. You know, it's coming. You knew that.

I know it's coming. It has to come.

We had to talk about him. I'll let you share bits and pieces of the story as you see fit. But that is such a. It is one of the. It's still one of the stories that really sticks out in my head, partially because obviously going through the very things that he went through and then feeling like you're getting taken advantage of and then opening one's heart again and stuff like that. I resonate with that a lot. Right. I'm one of those people that have been burned by various things throughout the course of my life.

Talk to us a little about his journey, because it's a beautiful story and I know it's how you ended up in very cold water. So.

You'Re talking about the story that opens the book. And of course, in so many ways, it had to be the story that opens the book. The book, right. It's about this Icelandic fisherman named Good Liquor, Frith Thorson.

I had it totally wrong. I was trying.

And, you know, it was. He came into my life because of a story that my husband told me one night. And.

It'S. It was about this event that happened back in 1984 in the winter.

This.

He was a fisherman on this Icelandic fishing vessel that capsized off the coast. Iceland. Everyone died except for him. And how he survived is that he started swimming and he swam six hours, six kilometers freezing water, 41 degree water. Basically you and I would have died in three minutes, you know, max. But he kept, you know, he's wearing like a flannel shirt and a sweater and you know, like work pants, you know. And he's ended up swimming that, that six hours and surviving, and not only surviving, did not have any signs of hypothermia, was a little bit dehydrated, you know, from being in the ocean with the seawater. And.

And, and scientists, doctors were like, what? Like how is this possible? And it turned out because he, you know, the fishing metal capsized, they weren't able to deploy the life raft. And so his whole thing was like, you know, I need to, I to need, need to tell people this is what happened. You know, we didn't have the automatically deploying life raft. And so that's why my friends died. And turned out he, you know, he said, okay, I'm going to succumb to these experiments to find out how I survived. And not only was he an excellent swimmer, is that he had, but that he also had this biological quirk of like his body fat was like, he was like a seal basically. They called him the human seal, you know, two, three times normal human thickness, dense fat and he could keep his core body temperature stable and he kept swimming. You know, so one or, one or two of those, you know, one of those things could not have been true, could have been not true and then he would have died. You know, he could have not been a good swimmer. He didn't have this quirk and, and then he became famous. You know, Johnny Carson's calling him, everybody's calling him and he's just like, ah, you know, imagine becoming that, like this global phenomenon for what? For. I think that as a person who any survivor of a tragedy is like why am I, why am I the one that survives? You know, what about everyone else? And to be famous for that I think is something that is always, it surely seems to me to be a very like a double edged sword, right? Yeah, you're grateful, but you're also kind of like why, you know what, what makes me so special? So special. And I think that he always felt sort of like that wasn't a thing that he really wanted to be famous for. And but again like he did want to publicize the need for, you know, these self deploying life rafts and that became this mandatory thing on all Icelandic fishermen, fishing vessels. And so that was A change that he was a promise he made to his friends. Right. And, and, and then, you know, you want to live your life. And he kind of, you know, became very, he was very private. He was lived in a small town, a small island, in a very small country. And that worked out for him. But people would come calling like you know, every once in a while. I mean I, I wrote to him for a year not knowing if we were going to ever meet. Like we, we were pen pals for a year. And when I, once I arrived on the island and, and actually did meet him and, and then I understood, you know, he said, yeah, oh, there's a French film crew on the island. Like now they're doing a documentary. And then you would get these phone calls from like, you know, Japanese meet, you know, news news that news media was calling. I mean it's just like this international phenomenon. I mean I was just telling a story about how my mother in law, who's a nurse, she remembers reading about his case in a, in a medical journal when she.

Crazy. Yeah. And so he was, he is someone who is, has achieved a sort of like mythological status, you know, is an Icelandic hero and you know, a symbol of survival, resilience. Because I mean, obviously like you and I are talking about this because his story is incredible, but also what does it mean to us? Like what do we, why do, why are we so enamored with that? We love stories of survival. We also love knowing that someone could achieve something that's impossible. Yeah, because it also reflects back on us, like what can we do that we don't know is possible? Yeah, right. And then of course, swimming and all this, like there's mythology around half seal, you know, the selkies, half human. Goes back to what, mermaids. It's this whole thing. We love that kind of, you know, the porousness between states and this like this lovely idea of like what? You know, when I was a kid, I imagined I was like maybe I'm a mermaid in the ocean. You know what? It's like we love to tell ourselves stories about these things because we love to exist in these places that are, you know, not quite possible.

Well, I'm a little selfishness too. Or a little selfish in this too. Because I discovered through ancestry that apparently I'm got quite a bit of Norwegian bloodline or Icelandic really. So that's where the light eyes come from apparently, you know. So to me it was, I was, I was reading about a hero, you know, kind of. I know that's the furthest thing he wanted from that. But no, I think it's. I think it's encouraging. It's not only is it the will to live and the underdog story and all of that. I think some of my favorite parts about that is actually the relationship you guys built as friends.

Yeah.

And the genuineness behind this man. It's almost like with the glitz and the glamour and all the reporters and all that stuff, on the early onset, they forgot the man.

They sure did. They did. And not because of any.

I don't think it, you know, not because of mal. Intent by, you know, a journalist or.

A writer or, you know, magazine or newspaper that would come to find a story. I think, you know, again, we are all. I mean, any celebrity will probably tell you that sometimes that that doesn't feel true. I think in his case, it was like people really wanted to know something. Maybe they didn't know what they wanted to know and what I wanted to do. Again, selfishly, because I also was, like, so up. Really taken with the story, and I didn't. I didn't really know.

You know, what he would tell me, of course, but I knew I wanted to hear from him. You know, that's selfish, too. Like, I wanted to. To be the person who. And I thought because I was asking him about swimming, like, because it was about this larger story of swimming and that he was a part of it. I think that's why he felt that, you know, he had something to say. And also I. I asked him. I asked him, you know, why he did end up saying yes to meeting me. And he said, well, it's because, you know, you.

I think he. Because he said, I always knew I was going to meet you. And I said, I didn't know you were always.

Did you pay attention to the emoji? I mean, you know, and he said.

It was because I guess he could. He was reading something in what I wrote to him when we communicated that let him know that he felt like he could trust me. Which is like, the biggest compliment.

Yeah.

I could ever receive is that something that I said made him understand.

That I. That I had the. You know, that I had the best intentions and wanted to hear from him as a person, you know. You know, that I was a person.

Genuineness.

Yeah. But that's, you know, that. That is. You have to trust someone and you have to kind of trust that they are.

You know, who you want them to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. Well, you know, the other thing that. It's stood out to me Specifically? Well, not specifically, just in general. Like I said when I started this conversation, I was like, there's so many different directions I want to go.

Is this essence of different cultures throughout the world. So the US The United States culture is very different from the Norwegian culture, very different from the Japanese culture, very different from really any other nationality as it relates to water and swimming. And that was pretty profound for me. I always took for granted the fact that I can get into a pool or get into a lake or whatever and swim. I never thought about there actually being entire subcultures or cultures around water and swimming and the properties go with it. That was pretty profound. How did you discover that?

Oh, you mean like, for example, the.

Ceno meds in Southeast Asia? Like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, just. How did I find out about it? I just tried to cast as wide a net as possible. And it really was my desire to tell global stories about swimming, not just, you know, like you said, an American centric, Western centric story. Because, you know, I'm. I have. I think I have the. And I can bring to it the perspective that I have as being like, the child of, you know, two people who met in a swimming pool in Hong Kong. You know, like, that's my story.

That's another one of my favorite stories.

But my parents, you know, were.

They met in Hong Kong and they immigrated to the US and, you know, and I grew up, and I was born in Flushing, New York. And, you know, this is my. That's my origin story. And so I can't help but kind of tilt towards.

And have an interest in where swimming, you know, what kind of.

What kind of place swimming has in other places and cultures, you know, and I. And I am fascinated by those stories and also how when you kind of line them up together, how they compare and contrast and kind of illuminate each other.

Yeah, I mean, I thought, yeah, really.

Profound, like in Southeast Asia that, you know, swimming was for these peoples, like the Bajau and the Mokan people in, like, what's today, like Thailand and, you know, and.

Vietnam and all those different countries now, that what that was subsistence, that was living on boats or houseboats or, you know, floating and that they. That a lot of the kids learned how to swim before they walked because they lived on the water. And I. And then also how modernization has kind of made those subsistence cultures.

You know, really start to disappear because of just industrialization of these places.

Yeah, I mean, even in India, there's a. There's an essence of magicalness to the water, you know, there's a. There's a lot of, you know. Anyway, it's just. It's really like. I just thought. I just found it profound because it wasn't something that I had thought of. Like, it. As strange as it sounds, it actually awoken me to other perspectives, other opportunities, and I wasn't expecting that.

I'm so glad.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting that.

Job done.

Boom, boom. Drop the mic. We're done.

All right. See ya.

Yeah, Right. Peace. The other thing that I. That I. That I took away and that I thought was really special was the vulnerability that you shared about how water in many respects, kept you safe emotionally and spiritually when it came time for your parents to maybe kind of go their separate directions.

Yeah, I mean, I. You know, I'm. I'm a journalist first and foremost, and so it was a little bit hard for me to reveal so much personally about my family, but I, you know, I was like, okay, I have to do that, because then it'll feel true. You know, then the reader will know that where I am and where I'm coming from. And so I wanted to talk about how.

You know, swimming for my family was something that we did as a unit.

Yeah.

Before my parents got divorced and I was through. All through my growing up. And then I realized, you know, that.

It wasn't. It was a thing that we did as a family, and then no one else did it anymore except for me. And I was kind of like, what is that? What is that? What's happening here? And because I have, you know, it's a story that I tell about my life. Right. So it's like swimming has buoyed me through my parents, divorce, and, like, certain, you know, people I love dying and, you know, we. And. And being sick and, you know, miscarriage and all these sickness and terrible things. And I know that it helped. It has helped me through a lot of these difficult times and get through the other side of difficult years. And I know that it does that for other people as well. And I think to share those stories is to let other people know that they're not alone in that. Yeah. And so if I can help people to know that, you know, I think one of the properties of water that I have been thinking about that is so.

Comforting is that it's always changing, Right?

Yeah.

Tides are moving, currents. You'll get different looks and light and animals moving through. And that is something that is comforting. Like, that idea is you can't. You can't really hold it in place. And that's good. And so even bad things will pass away and good things will come and take their place. And I think that water kind of does that for us. It's cleansing, too. It's all these really good things.

Well, that's why I wanted to mention it too, because, you know, one of the things about vulnerable, transparent stories that I've always appreciated is how oftentimes the person who has the vulnerable story to share takes them for granted, but how special they are to somebody who's listening.

Yeah.

You know, and I found that in and of itself to be magical. For all we know, there's a young man or a young woman watching, you know, essentially right now, and by the time they actually get at the recording of this or listening live, they were. Who's going through a tough spot and then maybe has their own, like, water element in their life that kind of was like an aha. They forgot about it or it kind of like escaped them. And then they're like, oh, yeah, I haven't been in the water. And then they go in and then they go. Then they kind of go into what I refer to as the replenishment zone. You know, I'm huge in defining your replenishment zone.

Yeah.

For some people it's water. For some people it's nature. For some people it's a. I'm a notepad and a pen kind of guy. I like to reflect and kind of go through that scenario. And to me, that's one of the things that the book reminded me of specifically and the journey reminded me of is this all these various stories and how all these various stories interconnect, but really kind of give one truth, which is water is special. And if you'll kind of work with water, you get to enjoy the special.

Yeah. Yes. And I think that it's not. It's not that it's going to fix everything for you. It's not like it's to. Going. Going to magically heal you, but it will help you get there. You know, it will help you to remember.

Again. It's such a multifaceted, you know, all of these words that we think of, like floating, buoying, cleansing, flow. You know, all of that stuff is part of it. And.

And of course, it's hard to hold. Right. So the book was in many ways difficult to.

Figure out, as you know, before I started writing it, to see, like, what form is it going to take? Because it is slippery. Right. It's like something form. And. And then actually what happened was that I understood. Oh, that's part of the book. That's like the fact that you can't hold it, that you're seeing in all these different moods. Let's talk about that. Let's understand that we can't. You know, it's like this weird paradoxical substance that, like, holds us, and yet we can't hold it. You know, it's weird. And I think that that's part of the magic. That's part of the thing that we want to be a part of and kind of takes us outside of our head because it's like, again, so weird and wonderful, you know?

Well, I mean, it creates space. That's the word that keeps coming up, is it creates space. And whatever That's. Yeah, whatever that space is, the water kind of flows into. So if you're in the. If you're in a mo. And if you're in the emotional perseverance journey, and maybe you're just. You're going after. Maybe you're competing and you're grinding it, and it's. It's part of the achievement cycle. It fits into that box. Or if you want to call it a box, it fits into that. Okay. I just. I went through a very difficult time in my life. I'm just going to get in there and soak. It fits in that box. Right? It fits in so many different places that the word that keeps coming up in my mind as we talk is the word space. It just creates space.

Yeah. Yeah.

And how often are we not going to do a space?

It creates a space and then can flow into the space to fill it, whatever the shape is. Spaces.

Exactly. I have a strange. Kind of a strange question.

Hit me.

Why is the breaststroke your favorite?

Oh, well, actually. Okay, so I'll answer that in one way, and then I'll tell you something else that I was thinking about this morning on my swim. The breaststroke was my favorite because I was. I was good at it.

Okay, so now we're cheating. And.

And also, it is a little bit weird because you kind of have to. It. You kind of have to slow down to go fast. I mean, I talk about this in the book, but it is weird because it's not like the churning of, like, freestyle. You have to have a pacing and a rhythm that allows you to glide. And if you cut short the glide, then you actually go slower. And so I find that really interesting.

It's a metaphor for life because, like.

I said, I'm not a patient person in the book. And. And it's true. And it is a good exercise in being patient. And I've found that I'm much better at being slow now that I'm old, now that I'm aged into this zone of, you know, I'm okay not going super, super fast because, like, my neck kind of hurts, you know, but just. And this morning when I was swimming, I mean, I love butterfly because it feels and is so beautiful. Like. But that's a lot of effort. It's a lot of, like, it requires a lot of effort to kind of like, propel yourself out of the water. Down. But what I. What was. What's interesting about your question is that one of the things I learned when I was researching the book is that butterfly. Because you think butterfly seems so hard. Why would anyone invent the stroke? It came out of breaststroke.

Did it really?

Yeah. So breaststroke, some people kind of started to experiment with taking their arms out of the water instead of pulling underneath the water. And so, of course, pulling your arm out of the water and then doing the breaststroke kick, the frog kick, is faster. I mean, it's stronger. You just have, like a bigger arm motion.

And then.

People were kind of like that, well, that's not fair. It's a different stroke now. And so that's how butterfly kind of evolved from breaststroke and then became its own stroke with the dolphin kick.

That is very interesting. See, I like all these new HA's, and that's not in the book we said.

But I do. I mean, I like those. I love all the strokes. I mean, freestyle. I think now you're really making me think about why I didn't like freestyle when I was kidding. Because I was slow. See, it's. I'm being vulnerable with you and saying I didn't like not being good at things.

Type A. Type A.

Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, there's so much. There's so many takeaways.

Before we get too much further. Where can everybody get the book?

Anywhere books are sold. I love to put in the, you know, plug for any local favorite bookstore.

Yeah.

Near you. But really, you can get it anywhere.

Well, and also, it's definitely. You should read that. For sure. It's. It's. I'm. I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I. In full transparency, I'm about 80% done. So I have a little.

Well, you have the flow state to get into that.

That's right. That's right. No, but, but, but it was. I wasn't sure what I was expecting, but I got more than I was expecting in a good way. You Know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yes. That's cool.

I'll take it.

And then you brought in some Japanese stuff, and I was just like, okay, that's. I used to want to be a ninja when I was a kid. So. Yeah. So in fact, the Japanese teaches that swimming in freezing water cultivates perseverance, submergence leads to patience, and diving foster. Diving fosters bravery.

Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because one of the. I love that we're going into the Tokyo Olympics, and one of the things that I was so hoping for is that people are going to rediscover or rather discover for the first time, this tradition of Japanese, like the Japanese swimming martial art, which is the thing that I write about in the book, and it's called nihon eiho. And it's like samurai swimming. So, like, all the samurai clans have different ways of swimming, and that's so cool.

It is really cool. I just. I didn't know how to. I was scared to pronounce the word, so I didn't want to mess it up.

Nihon, a ho, is so cool. So basically, it just means, like, the swimming. Japanese swimming martial art.

Yeah.

And there are all these, like. Just imagine all these samurai clans in different parts of Japan protecting, like, from the ocean or. Or, like, you know, across a lake, like, defending from enemies approaching the piece of land they're protecting. And just picture, you know, a samurai in full armor, like, treading water silently.

Yeah.

With, like, 30 pounds of armor and.

Then, like, big male in his hat. Yeah.

It's so cool. And you can watch this on YouTube. So after you listen to us, you can look this up. I'm telling you.

And you should, because.

I want to ask you, you know, as an author myself, I feel like certain works call you to them to write. Is this one of those cases? And if so, why or how.

Oh, absolutely. I love that you asked that. I think so. My last book was a book about American Chinatowns. And, you know, that in a very linear way was how my. My family came to this country through New York and San Francisco, Chinatown. So it was like this personal relationship I had with place, but also with, like, generations of people coming through. And what is this fascination we have with these neighborhoods? Right. How are they changing, et cetera? And so people were like, okay, of course, now you know. You know this from books is that people are like, so, what's your next book? Yeah, Like, I don't know. And so for years, I thought, well, Another thing that I really love and have a personal connection with is swimming. But what would that book look like? You know, So I started to think about it, and I noticed that there were certain essays or stories that I write, like for the New York Times, about swimming or traveling to a place and swimming, like in Hawaii and people. I noticed that readers really loved those stories. And so I started to think, well, maybe there's something there that I could really investigate. And of course, swimming is a huge topic. And so how do you corral that? So I spent several years just kind of thinking about it, like backburner and having people tell me interesting stories, like the stories of Japanese samurai swimmers and good liga for Thorsen, like Icelandic fishermen surviving shipwrecks. And so, you know, it all kind of finally came to a point where I said, okay, I think I'm ready to do this. How will I structure it? And asking the central question of why we swim and all these five different ways of answering this question was how it happened. And it shook out, but it took a while, you know, it took years. It's not like it happened overnight. And that is a really good reminder as I try to figure out what the next book is.

We're not. We're not going to put you on the spot here today.

Yeah, no, it's not happening.

Yeah, we'll just be.

Well, I've enjoyed it. I mean, I've enjoyed the. I'm enjoying the book. I'm enjoying the conversation. You know, I. As someone also who writes and things like that, again, I think certain works call us to it. It's written in such a way that a soul speaks kind of thing. It's like a soul speaking to another soul. I know that, as strange as that sounds, if people think I'm weird, that's okay. That's my take, you know. But as I'm doing that, I'm also thinking about, you know, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking about the. Who is the person that is best suited to read my manuscripts and my books, kind of scenarios. It's one of the things that I always ask myself because I've. I've tried to get to this place, whether I'm speaking or writing, where I'm sharing what needs to be heard and not simply what I want to say kind of scenario that makes any sense. Yeah.

And you know what you just reminded me of? When you're writing a book, you know, the question is, like, who is this book for? And you. And. And on. On the one hand, there's an easy answer for why we swim, which is like, swimmers, right? Or people who love to swim. But a really good friend of mine who's also a writer, I remember at a certain point when we were talking about the book and I was writing it, he said, you know, actually, what's interesting to me is who. Who needs to read this book and would resist it and could be convinced that's.

That's where I was going.

Yeah. So it's super interesting because you. Because I actually then that got me thinking, who are the people? Like we said earlier, resist this for whatever reason, and how do you reach them? And so I thought, okay, even if you're not a swimmer. All of the stories that I heard, like, when I was working on this book, were not. It was like 50, 50. It was like, I love swimming. I have this relationship. And then there's the other half.

I'm terrified of the water. I'm not a swimmer. I've always wanted to be a better swimmer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So what is in this book for them? And that's why I was saying earlier that fear is a central theme in this book, because I understand that. I understand that the flip side of swimming is drowning. You know, the floating, sinking, life, death. And that's fascinating to me. That friction is really interesting.

I mean, it is the yin and yang in many respects. And that's why I wanted to go with it. Because, you know, sometimes I know for me, sometimes I set out to write a book in a specific direction, but by the time I get to the end, I realized that the direction is actually over here. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And then that. So in your mind, your heart of hearts, who is the book for now?

That's so interesting to think about it at this point, I really do think about it as being.

Trying to have it get to be able to reach you where you are, you know? And I think about this when I look at the population of people who pass through, like, my local pool or at the beach. You see little kids, you see seniors who are like, you know, 90 and still going. And you see everyone in between. You see people who are, like, so. Like, look so at home, they look like seals.

And then you see people who are just, like, struggling and, like, you know, having a hard time breathing, and just like, stop, stand up, take a breath and try again. And I mean, that's the struggle.

Like, that is like the whole gamut of humanity. And I think, though, everyone is striving for that moment and momentary feeling that you are part of the water.

Yeah.

That you're super fluid, that you're not separate. And.

We'Ll go back to Bruce Lee be water.

Yeah, that's right.

I would piggyback on that and say after being through the vast majority of the book, if you're searching for additional peace, check. If you're searching for additional clarity, check. If you're searching for additional fulfillment, check. If you're searching for a way to replenish, check. I say all that to say thank you for writing the book because it is a beautiful work of art, and I know it's going to help a lot of people. It encouraged me, and I didn't even know I needed encouragement. I mean, which is. I mean, you know, I feel like I'm in a good place, and I'm like, you know what? That really. That. That story deeply touched me or this concept deeply. Like, it's. It's. It's that special of a read. And I hope the audience will. Everybody listening and watching will check it out, because it's well worth the effort, for sure.

Thank you. That means a lot.

Awesome. Well, I've enjoyed our conversation. I hope you have as well.

And when you do, call me up.

Yeah, right. As soon as you drop the. You know, drop the next book, whatever that might be or whatever subject that might be, you know, consider this place home.

Thank you.

All right, Bonnie, take care.

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