The #1 Thing People GET WRONG When Trying To GET AHEAD In Life... | Travis Chappell

When you're forced to level up, your habits start to change, your identity starts to change, your mindset starts to change. And that's what those core things are, the fundamentals that allow you to be able to level up and continue to add to your net worth and get to the next level in life.

What is the number one thing that people get wrong about networking? Like what? Why, why do people jack it all up?

Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things. I think, first of all, people look at it too short term and transactional, and it's long term and relational.

I think that. That people tend to make it more about themselves instead of about other people. And those are probably the two, like, core issues for most people is. And to be fair, it's not really. It's not really their fault. You know, like, this is really the only style of networking that anybody gets taught. We don't learn networking in college or high school or anything. You just kind of get out into the world and start figuring out that, oh, it seems like the people that have better relationships are more successful. Maybe I should do that. And then the only references that you have is this like 1980s version of business networking events where you go somewhere for an hour, you put on a name tag, you have a cocktail, and you have 500 business cards, and you run around throwing your elevator pitch out at everybody. And it just kind of built this negative connotation to the word. And so I think people get it wrong as well because they think about it too much as a separate activity from general and regular relationship building. And I think that they're. I think that networking done right is the same thing as going out to a bar with your buddies and playing some pool or whatever. Yeah, I just think it's the same. It's the same core idea. If you, if you network well, you're building relationships. True, genuine connections and relationships with people. It just happens. Networking just happens to be a little bit more focused. You're not randomly connecting with a person at the bar, playing darts who may or may not have any common interests that you have in life.

Yeah.

You're going to places, events, conferences. Having people on your podcast.

Yeah.

That have similar interests or desires or they're in a similar field for work or in a different career that works or coincides with what you do. So it's a little bit more focused relationship building is all. But it's the same activity. It's the same thing in general. And I think people get it wrong because they segment the two and they're like, you know, relationship building and this stuff that's, that's over here in this bucket and networking is over here in this bucket and they're doing differently and I just disagree with that.

Now do you find that. I don't know about you, but you know, some of my experience has been with, you know, as owning several companies myself, one of the things I've run into all the time is when I go to a different events, when people come up to me, they're not actually coming up to get to know me at all. They're coming up to see how I can further whatever their thing is.

Exactly.

Do you, do you find that a lot with what you see as well?

Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's kind of what I meant by like people do it differently in those types of settings. It's like if you ran into that person at the bar, they're not just to like tell you about their business and try to sell you something. You know what I mean? Like they're just going to be like, hey, what's up? Yeah, how's your mom and them conversation, A regular relationship. You, you search for commonalities, you get to know each other. But people in this business context have this idea that it's not a successful quote unquote networking event unless they walk away with X number of phone numbers and X number of emails so that they can get X number of sales tomorrow. And I just think that's, that's the, like that's the wrong activity. Networking is not your chance to do in person cold calling. That's you know what I mean? Like that's at the office on Monday, you pick up the phone and you have a list and you cold call data. Like if that's your thing, do that, that's fine. I don't have a problem with cold calling, but in a networking event or situation that is not the correct opportunity to use that in and that's the people. Like I'm not even saying that it won't work, but it won't work long term. Yeah, you're always going to have to do that. That's why you say like if you go to, if you go to a networking event in 1995 and you go to that same networking event in 2015, you know what I mean? Like that 20 year time period that same insurance rep from State Farm is working, you know what I'm saying? Like because they have to continue to farm because, because they're not building any long term relationship value with other people that allows Them to be able to separate themselves from the work that they're doing. So yeah, you can make a cool grand a year going to networking events and spamming enough people. Like, you know, you talk to enough people, you're going to close some business. I'm not saying it will not work, but I am saying is that, you know, you're not setting yourself, you're not setting your future self up, which to me is just a bad way of looking at. I'm so much more about delaying gratification and thinking about what is my future self going to thank me for? And probably not that.

Yeah, no worries. I mean, for sure, the one of the things that I love about your career specifically, it kind of mimics some of the behaviors that I, that I actually appreciate when I'm talking to somebody for the first time, which is, you know, what kind of know, someone comes up to me and says, hey, how can I add value to whatever you're doing? What's your dream? What's your ambition? What are you working on? What are you excited about? And I know that, you know, when you first started out, obviously you didn't have the credibility you've got now, you know, talking to world class thought leaders on a regular basis. And if I'm not mistaken, one of the pivot points of that was you started off by saying, what kind of value can I add?

Yes. Yeah, correct. And I always tell people your network will, your network will increase in direct proportion to the amount of value that you can add to other people. And when like the purpose of progression in your career is to continually become a more valuable individual.

Yeah.

And if you can in theory continually become more valuable, then you can continue to add more value to the relationships that you do have, which will lead to more value creation and more relationships and will start to compound over a long period of time. So when I started, I was starting from scratch and I didn't have much value to offer people. You know, I was like 24 year old kid, didn't know anybody, didn't make, you know, much money, made six figures, knocking doors. But that was just about it. I was just trying to figure things out, I was trying to learn, I was trying to grow, get around the right people. But my point is I didn't have much value to offer. So I looked at the things that I did have to offer and one of those things was time when I was just getting started, you know, I didn't have a bunch of relationships or capital or a lot of those other things that you look for in terms like in order to be able to add value to others in general, I didn't have a lot of those things, but I did have some time on my hands because I was trying to figure out what I was doing. So I volunteered time to go add value to people. And you know, it turns out a lot of busy people, the thing that they need more of is time. So if you can kind of give them some of their time back by volunteering to work something or do something for them for free or add some value through, you know, free volunteer work or something like that, you know, I found that that was a way that I could add value. And what's interesting now is like the same people that I was volunteering literally days of my time for a few years ago now it's easier for me to add more value than that in a 10 minute introduction email than it, than it was for me back then to do it over four days of volunteering, eight hours of my time every single day. You know what I mean? So over time it should be, it should get a little bit easier and become a little bit more clear on the value that you can add into relationships. But it's all about that value. What can you bring to the table? And it doesn't mean that you have to be the domain expert, you know what I mean? It just means that you got to find what they want and deliver some version of that to them in some sort of value proposition. And that allows you to be able to connect with those people a little bit better.

Yeah, for sure. Trust is nothing more than the credibility over time, right? So you're doing the right thing repeatedly over time. Never really asking for much, always asking about value. And then the other, the other side of the coin is something that I've seen you do really, really well with your career. Something that's super impressive, that I think is grossly underestimated or underrated with a lot of folks, which is this essence of being opportunistic in that you're constantly creating network, meaning you could be standing with somebody for the first time. You're not actually going to an event to actually necessarily network, but your conversational and your approach. You know, one of the things I love about your story is obviously it's kind of how you got JLD on the show very, very early on, right? You're at a mastermind event and walking through that. What did that experience teach you about the power of networking?

First off, it just kind of taught me like every time I connected with somebody that I thought before was going to be impossible to connect with or at least extremely difficult to connect with. And then I did.

Was another deposit in my confidence account that this can be done if you just find an angle. If you work hard enough to figure out the value or work hard enough to figure out the person that you know, that knows them or you know what I mean? Like, there's always a way to get in touch with somebody. And I think early on those are the, like the biggest takeaway when I look back on that is that it just taught me what's possible. And some amazing things have come out of that particular relationship with someone like John. Like John's an investor and advisor, like kind of partner in my software company now.

So cool.

And you know, he wrote me a big check to be involved in my company and you know, three, four years after we met for the first time where I was, you know, volunteering days of my time and paying him for his advice and all this other stuff. So in particular, like practically it worked out extremely well in terms of like a lesson, you know, that I took away from it. I think it was really just about the fact that I looked at these relationships as completely inaccessible and totally impossible for me. And then it happened and it was like, oh, if I can do it with this person, then maybe I can do it with that person. And maybe I do with that person and that person, that person, that person, that person. And then it just kind of kept snowballing from there.

Yeah, well, I mean you've had some world class thought leaders. Trent Shelton, Tom Bilyeu, jld, Dean Graziosi, John Maxwell. I mean the list goes on. You know, some are, you know, some of those I consider mentors and friends myself. And you know, when you, when you look at, you know, kind of getting to that, the many of those, many of those folks are obviously at the apexes of their career currently and doing a great job in thought leadership and trying to encourage and motivate others. Is there a particular show or particular conversation that has really just stuck with you out of all those world class leaders that really kind of just kind of sets the tone of who you're trying to become now.

It'S, it's really hard to pick like a single conversation or.

Interaction with somebody because there's so many of them that have had just little impacts here and there on my life when I met them and had conversations with them, but also, you know, through me consuming their content. Um, but I kind of got to go back to the teaching me what's possible thing, because that's really what it comes down to is before I used to look at it as like, oh, that's. I would just immediately dismiss it as something that was impossible because I didn't have any connections, I didn't have any money. I didn't have any reason to be able to connect with those people. And I've heard, and I had heard so many other people that were seemingly way more qualified than I was saying how much they tried to get in touch with those people, and it was impossible for them. And so I was like, how is it going to be possible for me?

Yeah.

And. And so, you know, when I. When I started to do that, the. The thought no longer was, this is impossible. It was. It was. Okay, let's say it is impossible. But if it were possible, like, let's humor myself for a second and assume that it is possible somehow, what would it take? Number one, and am I willing to put in the work to get there? Number two.

Yeah.

And when I started asking myself that question, a lot more doors started opening up for me because it became more about. It wasn't about, though. This is impossible. It was just like, no, if someone has a pulse, if they're breathing, living human being, you can get in touch with them. Yeah, sure, you got to figure out an angle. You got to figure out a way to do it. And sometimes it's not worth it. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes I would ask myself that question for somebody and be like, you know what? That's a lot of work. And that connection doesn't, you know, isn't. Isn't something that, like, really fires me up right now. So I'll probably not do that work and then accept the fact that that's okay, you know what I mean? But in other people, it was like, I did value the connection and I did want to have the conversation on my show enough where it was. It was enough for me to go, okay, let's build a plan and let's work that plan until it works.

Yeah.

And has every single one of them worked? No. You know what I mean? But is it possible to get in touch with way more people than I thought it was? Yeah, a hundred percent, but, yeah, a couple of those early ones, man, like, Grant Cardone was a big one for me because I consumed so much of his content when I was first, like, before I started a podcast, when I was really kind of at a lost point in my life and I was still selling door to door and I was listening to some of his sales trainings and listening to his podcasts and stuff. And so I really wanted to interview him back in the day. And, um, so. So it was like sitting and sitting in front of him at his office, in his studio. Interviewing him was a lot more than just the interview for me. It was just. It was just like the culmination of a couple of years where he had had a major impact on my life without really knowing it. And I was able to sit down with him and have a conversation, an interview. And a couple times during the conversation, he commented about how prepared I was and how good of an interviewer I was. And, um, so. So those. Those are things that I definitely remember. Molly Bloom was another one of those that I use pretty often because zero connection to her. She wasn't even in the personal development space at the time. She hadn't really been doing much speaking. Her movie just came out. It was like, we watched her movie, like, the day after it premiered. And. And I remember watching that going like, man, it would be awesome to interview this girl. She's obviously an expert networker, you know, And. And then that. That thought came in my head. Oh, it's impossible. Like, how the hell am I?

There's no. There's no. I don't have any connections. This is like five months into my show. I didn't have a big show. I didn't have any reason for her to connect with me. Didn't have much value that I could offer. But then immediately it was just like, all right, if it is possible, what would that look like?

Yeah.

So I go to, you know, my super, super secret data collection source Google, and start going to work on trying to figure out an angle. Got in touch with her, got ignored, and then finally got a response. It was a no, and then got ignored again. And then another response that was a no, and then pushed back. And then like eight months later, we sat down for an interview. And now, you know, we're. We're pretty good friends. If, you know, if I text her, she text back. And if, you know, if. If we're at an event, we try to connect. And I've been able to get her on a couple of other really big shows with friends of mine, and I've been able to add some value to her life as well. So, um, those are a couple of the specific examples off the top of my head. But it really comes down to, like, you know, I used to think it was impossible, but then it just became a question of, like, let's assume it is possible if it is. What would it take to get there and am I willing to put in the work?

Yeah, man, that's so good. So good. You know, when I. When I think about it too, when I. When the more I hear you, many of your stories, you know, I know that you. Your experience with Grant was very touching to him because he literally took your. Took your episode content posted on his own channel, his own feeds. You know, I think that just goes to show that at. The secret of network networking, to me, and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this, really comes down to authenticity and sincerity. Like, are you honestly there to have a honest conversation and get real feedback, or are you there just to get a feather in your cap or whatever? Is that what you're running into as well?

I'm sorry, you broke a little bit there. Can you say that one more time?

Yeah, I was just saying that, you know, it's. It's obviously pretty powerful when you got sincerity and authenticity. It seems like that's been the secret sauce to how you've been able to make these. These really, well, solid connections. Even. Even converting, you know, you know, not intros, converted the interviews into friends over time.

Yeah. You know, I would say that it goes a step beyond just authenticity and being who you are. I think that's a big deal because I was, you know, when I was interviewing these people, I was never posturing myself to be somebody that I was. Wasn't at the time. You know, I was. I was a new podcaster. I didn't have a massive audience. I didn't. I didn't make millions of dollars, and none of those things were true of me. And so I never pretended like they were. And I think that people really appreciated that, especially people like that, because they want to help you. Like, they, like, they don't. You know what I mean? Like, they're not trying to only connect with people that have already made it. It makes people that are on the other side feel really good to help people across the way, but only if those people are being honest and. And true and authentic to who they are. But I would say that I think it goes a step further from the interview to, you know, converting to a friendship or relationship or whatever. And I think that it's more. It's more about how you make them feel during the interview and how much preparation and research and what kind of a host you are, that. That really. That really makes the difference, because I've seen a lot. I've seen, you know, especially people like Grant get interviewed by Other people, and they were just. Bad interview. They're bad interviewers. You know, they. They're. They're nice, genuine, authentic, and all those things, but they just. They clearly just didn't prepare very well. They weren't super experienced. They weren't articulate, they weren't direct, they didn't control the conversation. You know, there was a lot of things that I think that they. That they did poorly, and it ended up reflecting negatively on them in the interview and resulted in a missed opportunity for them. So I think that preparation and trying to be a master of your craft, even if you're just getting started. You know, when I interviewed Grant, I was less than a year in on the podcasting thing, but I, at least the whole plane ride to Miami, read his most recent book, formulated questions, thoughtful questions out of his most recent book that I knew he was trying to promote at the time, listened to three or four podcast episodes that he had done in the last three or four months, and wrote out, again, thoughtful questions that I was genuinely curious about that proved how much preparation and work that I was doing into making sure that I was making the most of his time. Because that's. If you want to piss off a busy person, waste their time.

Yeah, true that.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's already a miracle that you got in front of that person because of how busy they are. But if you're going to take their time, you better make the most of it, or they're going to remember it as a negative experience. And that's, you know, good luck forming a relationship after that.

Well, you know, you. You've done so many amazing things and building a wonderful podcast and podcast brand around that. What. What was missing from the marketplace that made you say, you know what? I'm going to try software. Like, I want to build some software. Like, what made you want to build software?

Some crazy thing inside of me that. That dooms me to being stressed and anxious my whole life?

No, it was scratching my own itch, honestly. I just. I was always trying to reach up to a different level of guest and get the next guest and get the next guest and continue to improve the quality of the content that I was releasing. For a multitude of reasons. I think that that's my job as a podcast host, is to continually bring the best content that I can to my audience. But selfishly, it also is a huge credibility, authority factor that also brings growth and retention into my audience and allows me to be successful at what I'm doing. It's a Win, win, win for everybody involved. It's a better experience for the person I'm interviewing. It's a better experience for me. It's a better experience for my audience. I think that I owe it to them to reach up and continually try to get on the best possible people that I can interview.

When I looked on the market for solutions to the problem of this takes so too much time.

It does.

Ultimately, what it, what it was, it was just like people kept asking me, you know, I started doing. When my show started doing at least a little bit better than most shows at the time, I started doing some podcast consulting and coaching and. And things like that. And one of the number one questions that people kept asking me is like, hey, how are you able to interview that person? How'd you get in touch with Grant? How'd you get in touch with me? How did you, you know, reach out to this person? How'd you get an interview? How'd you land this? And the answer is, as you know, it takes a lot of time, takes a lot of persistence. It takes a lot of intros. It takes, like, flying out to Miami, I want to whim, because you. You finally got a response from somebody. It, like, it takes. It takes a lot to be able to make those. Those interviews happen. Especially when you were starting from scratch like I was, and I didn't. I didn't have a ton of money. I didn't have a bunch of these other things. And I was just like, there's got to be a way to shorten this learning curve a little bit, to shorten the amount of time that it takes to be able to get in touch with these people. And.

If I had something like Guestio at the time, I probably would have taken the money that I was spending on flights and put it into a site like this so that I could just shortcut that process and get some big people, heavy hitters on my show without having to go through all that stuff. And so I looked out there. There wasn't anything that existed that. That kind of met that need. And so I was like, well, let's may as well go ahead and build it. I don't know why I thought I was qualified to do that. Probably just ignorance.

Entrepreneurial bugs.

Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, here we are now.

All right, well, look, man, there's, you know, the podcasting world is a massive, massive world. There are lots of podcast hosts that are on various stages of their journey, right? Early startup, establish shows, establish shows that are pivoting to a different content model. All These different kinds of things. What does, what all does GEO do for the podcast host?

The core problem that we're solving is quality guests for your show. If you, if you're any, anywhere near the, along the journey, like I was, your biggest problem and the reason why you don't have a ton of listeners is not just lack of quality content, because you know that I'm, a lot of people put out really great quality stuff. It's the lack of credibility and authority. It's that people have no idea who you are and even though your content might be good, they don't know why they should trust you. That's why it usually takes five years to grow any sort of audience size in podcasting, unless you have a previous audience somewhere else, because it just takes a long time to get people to start trusting you. And then when they start trusting you and then they start seeing results in their own life and then they start sharing with other people and then those people come in. It just takes a really, really long time to get there. So, so the way that I kind of bypassed a lot of that was by getting these insanely high quality people on my show that already earned no like and trust with their audiences for years before I was even in the game. And there's this little, you know, psychological thing that happens. The association tendency is cognitive bias that exists in everybody's brain that, that works to your advantage. In this particular scenario, whenever you put your face next to somebody that is way more credible, recognized, known, liked, trusted than you are, you get to share on some of that. This is the entire premise for the whole endorsement industry, which is a multi, multi billion dollar industry. Nike spends over $6 billion in endorsements alone every single day. You know what I mean? So all they're doing is purchasing trust with their audience because they understand trust is the number one barrier to any sale. I like. I don't, I don't. It's just facts. Trust is the number one barrier to any sale. If you had 100% complete trust with every single one of your prospects, you would never have to worry about your sales copy. You would never have to worry about tweaking your sales letter. You would never have to worry about jumping on another sales call. People would buy from you willingly without asking you any questions, assuming you had 100% of their trust. Now it's pretty much impossible to get 100% of somebody's trust unless they're like.

Your, you know, your spouse maybe.

Exactly like Very, very, very tight knit, closed circle. Even your, you know, immediate Connections aren't going to have 100% trust in you, which is why you still have to explain things. You have, you have to be good at sales. You have to learn how to pitch. You have to learn how to write copy. You have to learn, you know, some of these other things. But, but if you can continually increase the amount of trust that your ideal prospects or customers have with you, then your barrier to the sale is going to be a lot lower and easier to break through. Through. And. And so my sale at the time was people listening to my show. That was my sale. I wanted more people listening to my show. And why should they care about Travis? The answer at the time was they shouldn't. They should care about Grant. They should care about Molly. And all I'm doing is doing my best to try to extract the best knowledge information from these amazing people, to give it back to my audience in a way that they can digest and understand it. And that became, you know, really my. My number one. My number one goal.

Yeah. I mean, the reality is I got a good friend of mine, Rory Vaden, co founder of Brand Builders Group, and he has this premise called she Hands Wall. And it's being known for one thing so much that you essentially break through the curtain, if you will, of being going from unknown to known. And there's a lot of aspiring thought leaders, podcast hosts, a lot of great people with great messages like you were mentioning earlier, that are largely unknown because they, they, they kind of hop, skip around and kind of do things like that, you know, so for the podcast host, let's. Because I, several of the listeners are podcast hosts in their own right. They, they have great growing shows and. Which is great. But you know, what type of podcast host is ready for guest CEO? Like, is there a certain part of their journey when they're actually ready for it, or is it, you know, is it an early startup? Is it mid, like midstream? Like, who, who's the best podcast host to partner with?

Yeah, I would say the best person is somebody who has a little bit of a budget, to be frank, because some, like, if, if you, if you're struggling to pay rent, like, you probably shouldn't be spending your money on guestio to get good guests for your show because it's not gonna, it's not gonna directly translate into income next month.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not. Like, it's not like investing in a Facebook ad where you put money into an ad and it drives traffic to a funnel, and then you get on a sales call and you make money. That's not how Guestio works, works. It's a credibility, brand building play. It's a long term game. And so if you are in a position where you, whether like I think that your journey in the podcast specifically or content creation world specifically is relatively insignificant, I think that it matters more of your like life journey and where you are in terms of your ability to spend some money, to get in touch with somebody without seeing an appointment. Immediate return of that money coming back into your bank account, you know, because we have some, you know, we've had people spend, you know, 30 or $40,000 on Guestio, but they are running eight figure businesses, they're brand new to content creation. You know, they're in their first 12 episodes. For them, they're just like, well, why am I going to, you know, wait four years before I can go interview Les Brown? Why don't I just go to Guestio, pay him five grand to get them on right now? Because I have that money and it doesn't bother me to pay that money because I love Les Brown, you know what I mean? So, um, I would say that it matters a lot more of where, where your budget lies than it does, you know, where you at, where you are in your podcasting journey specifically. You gotta be able to budget a little bit, you know, like I think of it like, think of it like you're creating a show, right? Every podcast or every YouTuber, you're creating a show. Just like Ellen has a talk show, just like Oprah has a talk show, just like Arsenio and Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel, they're all talk shows. They have full time bookers for their shows. People whose literal job it is to go out, source talent and get them booked on the show. Yeah, these people get paid six figure salaries because they're well connected and they know how to leverage value in order to exchange appearances on show. Like this stuff happens at the highest level. It's not like Jimmy Fallon just like texts people to come on his show. Like it's all like the, all this stuff is happening behind the scenes all the time. So you have to look at it as, you know, if I want to be a professional show host and I want to actually make money from this thing, why not dedicate a small, a little bit amount of a budget to leveling up the people that are coming on your show? This doesn't mean that you have to go spend five grand for Les Brown. Yeah, but you know, on Guest, yeah, we have people that are 50 bucks and they're best selling authors and they would make a fantastic guest for your show. We have people, John Lee Dumas is on there for $150. You know, Jordan Harbinger is on there for $350. Garab Seamus, who's the founder of Ace Comic Con, one of the largest Comic Con events in the world, is $250 on there. Like these are people that if you, if you could budget a thousand dollars a year to, to, to your podcast just to, to increase the quality of the people that you're bringing on, increase the credibility and authority of your show. If you can dedicate a small budget to that every year, I think you're going to find that it's going to be worth it. So, but, but the people I think that are the perfect fit, ideal fit, are, are people who have a little bit of extra cash. They don't need to, they don't need to see the return tomorrow. But, but it's going to benefit them long term, 100%, no questions asked.

Yeah, some more long term players kind of like, you know, what is set builders.

Yeah, yeah, they're looking to build brand, essentially.

Well, I mean, essentially that's what it boils down to. Right. So you know, when you're, when you're trying to establish yourself, you know, we've talked about a lot about credibility, we talked about sincerity, authenticity, offering value, doing things well. One of the things that I've seen you talk about a lot in the networking space is the three types of networkers. Let's break those down for just a second. So everybody kind of understands maybe where they can see themselves in their own journey. So maybe they have a better place or better understand of where to start.

Yeah. Three types of networkers in what context? I think I've written about this a couple of times.

Yeah, no worries. So the context of kind of where that person might be at in their journey. So you know, one of the ones that I, that I saw that, that I appreciated was the, you know, the person who's just doing networking.

Wrong. Gotcha.

That kind of scenario.

Yeah. So the way that I put it is like we talked about the beginning of the show, we talked about the, you know, 80s version of networking, name tags and business cards and barfing out an elevator pitch and everybody, I call that guy Networking Ned. And we all know a Networking Ned. And we've all avoided them as much as we possibly can at a conference. Right. He makes eye contact with you from 30ft away and starts power walking over to you with, like, a stack of business cards, because for some reason, he thinks that you're just going to hand 25 business cards out to all your. All your damn friends and family for him, even though you just met him, and he's going to barf out an elevator pitch. And then before you can say anything about what you do or add any value to the conversation, boom, he's onto the next one. That's networking, Ned. So you have people that are doing networking very poorly. And then what you have is all the people who hate that so much that they just avoid the activity altogether. They're just not interested in doing it because they're just like, man, I do not want to be that guy. And look, frankly, I don't even blame you.

But that doesn't mean that you can avoid the activity. So there's a third group of networkers that I think are doing it the right way, and those are the people that I was trying to connect with at the beginning. Because what I started to learn was I would go to these networking events, and, like, I was. I was horrible at it. Cause I was just getting started, and I started to realize that I was like, man, this. This stuff that I was taught, like, just. It's not working. Yeah, it just doesn't work very well. What. What am I doing? What am I doing wrong? And I started looking at again, looking at all the people who'd been there, done that walk, throw before me. They were very well networked. They had great circles of people. And I looked at them. I'm like, see, they're not doing this stuff. Like, they're not at the local mixer with the name tag and the business cards and the cocktails. Like, they're not doing all of that yet. They are still extremely connected. So they're obviously not neglecting the task of networking and building relationships. They're just doing it completely different. And that's kind of what set me on this journey of build your network and trying to figure out, like, man, what are. What are they. What are they doing that's different. And. And the answer is they were just building relationships.

Yeah.

The whole time.

Just like you would in high school.

Like you would in high school.

Kicking it. Yeah.

You go to the places where people are more likely to have things in common with you, and you just build relationships. Like, some of. Some of the people that I've. That I've known now in the business world, I've known for three or four years, and we're just now doing Business together.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Because we, we've known. Like, I like them, I trust them. We've known each other for years now. I've seen their work. They're credible to me. I trust them with business. I trust them with sending them clients. They trust me. Like, it's the mutual. You know, it's. It's a real relationship at this point. It's not just like, oh, I met this guy last night. He does this thing. Why don't you talk to him? You know? And it's like whenever I do that now, I always caveat it to the person I'm introducing them to. I'm just like, look, just FYI, I met this guy like yesterday. So I vouch for the quality of his work, but it seems like.

Seems like he seems cool. Maybe he's all right.

I didn't get a negative vibe from him, so, you know, check it out. But just so you know.

Yeah.

You know, this is not my full endorsement. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Versus I've known Timmy for three years kind of scenario.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. When I, when I connect to people that I've known for a while, I'm happy about the connection because I'm like, look, you two are both extremely high quality people. You know, she does this and he does this. Let's connect you guys together because you're going to create some magic together. You know what I mean? So it makes it. You just, you got to stop thinking about networking as like a separate activity. Um, you still need to do it on purpose, you still need to schedule time. I think you should still make a budget to go connect with people and do it on purpose. And I think you're going to see that play out over a long period of time. But good networkers, man, they're not short term thinking, they're not transactional thinking. They're long term and they're relational. And you have to be able to shift that mindset in order to be able to. To connect with people effectively.

Yeah. I mean, the reality is, is, you know, there's this old saying, right, that was it, was it your net worth is connected to your network or something like that. Right. I don't know about you, but I've seen for me in my life, that's actually been really true. How's it been for you? Is it true for you as well?

Yeah, it's the same thing, man. Like, because the bottom line is this, if you go get connected with a bunch of people who are operating on a completely different level than you in life. You're either going to have to level up or you're not going to be able to hang out with those people. And not because they're being assholes, but because, like, they don't have time for it. Like, literally don't have time for it. You have to be able to jump in, level up, add value in those circles, or you're going to be stuck in purgatory down here because all you do is suck value like a vacuum from everybody that you meet. And then you're classified as a taker. And nobody wants to hang out with you. Nobody wants to invite you to the next dinner. Nobody wants to send business your way. You know what I mean? Like, you. Like, you're forced to level up or get out is what happens when you get around those people. So when you're forced to level up, your habits start to change, your identity starts to change, your mindset starts to change. And that's what those core things are, the fundamentals that allow you to be able to level up and continue to add to your net worth and get to the next level in life. And it's a constant process. That network's always going to change and evolve. And I'm not one of those people that tells you to, like, you know, write down all the people you hang out with. If somebody's dragging you down, cut them out. Now.

I understand that there's just sinewing circumstances in life and that you have friends and you have family and that you don't want to just, like, leave them to doom themselves. You know, I get that some of those nuances exist, but what's interesting to me is that I don't think that you have to do that on purpose. I think that you just have to hang out with the good people on purpose. Because once you start becoming like them, the people in your life that aren't about that are going to take themselves out of your life.

Oh, easily, easily.

I'm saying, like, I don't think that you have to be the one to go to them and be like, we can't hang out anymore because you're a loser. And you drag me down and you offer me drugs and you, you know, keep me away from the gym. And you, all you want to do is drink and party, so I can't hang out with you anymore. It's more just like, hey, you want to go out to the bar and drink? Actually, no, because I'm in this reading group that we meet on Friday nights and we talk about the books that we, that we read this week. So, you know, I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually jumping on a call with them to talk about think and grow rich or whatever.

Yeah.

I'm saying. And then like that happens three or four weekends in a row and then like that person's probably not going to call you next weekend. Yeah, like, like those people are going to start removing themselves from your life. If you just focus on the positive, the good people that are lifting you up and bringing you up to that level. And you make an on purpose effort to hang out with those people and then let those other relationships just kind of happen as they will. And over time those people are just going to start distancing themselves from you because they're not going to like you.

Yeah.

They're not going to like you as a person anymore because you're not going to be the person that.

You're not the same, man. You're not the same dude.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. So it's going to naturally happen a little bit, but in my opinion, I think there's a little bit better way of going about it because it still allows you to have an impact. And you want to have an impact on those people. You still want to touch those lives. You don't want to just like cut people off and be like, good luck in life, survive without me. You know what I mean? It's just like I still want to have a positive impact on those people. And those people having such close, intimate touch points with you and watching you transform and go through that, maybe it will have an impact on them. Maybe three or four or five years down the road, after you've made it and you've made some money, that person might come to you and be like, hey man, I'm ready.

I can't keep living this bullshit life. I got to do something different. I saw you do it. Can you help? And that's a cool feeling.

Yeah. I mean, it's gravity, right. You're gravitating towards a polar, a pole of some kind, see the north or south. Right. You're gravitating all the time. And I think that's an important thing to remember. The other thing too, that you brought it. You've kind of mentioned it a few times as we've been talking, but it sticks out to me. I'm trying to think of some of my most powerful connections, you know, in building a business, building myself, learning more about myself that have now led me to, you know, really quality connections of my own. And one of those things is I had to be willing to invest in myself in certain circumstances to put myself in certain circles, mastermind groups, you know, the environments where I'm there for value, but I'm paying for that value. And then the relationship becomes like a byproduct of the connection.

Yep.

Right.

A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm a big believer in that, man. Sometimes if you want to shortcut the process, sometimes you got to pay to play. And some people have a really difficult time with this one. Like, they look at it as like, all those. All those people are just scam artists. And it's just like. No, it's just that sometimes if you. If you. If you live in the. If you live in a town that's not going anywhere and there's not a bunch of active things going on, and you're coming out of that town as somebody, like, almost as like a survivor. Right. Somebody who's like, getting out of here and wanting to go do bigger things and not as a slight to everybody else. Just like, I have different goals, I have different dreams, I have different ambitions.

Yeah.

None of that's happening here. Like, one of two things going to happen. One, you're going to get sucked into the vortex of where you are. Two, you're going to get out of that. And one of the best ways to get out of that is to change your environment. And one really awesome way to change your environment is to on purpose get around people who are operating on a different level and who have that same common interest, that same common goal of, I also want to level up. I also want to get out of here. I also want bigger and better things for my life. And if you don't have any of those connections, sometimes the best way to do it is just to pay for it. Because if you can pay and get into a group of people, first of all, when you pay, you pay attention.

Say that again. Say that again.

When you pay, you pay attention. So what happens is people want stuff for free all the time, but if they get it for free, they're just not going to take it seriously. But if you. If you're paying, you know, name the price, 5 grand, 10 grand, 20 grand, 100 grand. To be in a group, you know, you're going to pay attention to what's happening. Like, if they're putting on a meetup, you're probably going to go there. I mean, you're not wondering, like, oh, what else do I have to do that weekend? It's like, no, no, no. I'm Scheduling these all ahead of time because I paid $20,000 to be in this group. So I'm going to go, you know, like, I'm going to make sure I show up for this. Everybody takes it more seriously. Everybody's more actively involved in participating. Um, and so, like, that's the first thing. But the second thing is just getting around those people. You know, like we said, sometimes you got to do stuff on purpose to put yourself in a better situation. Because here's the thing that most people don't get. And like, so, so the thing that people do get, first of all, and then the thing that people don't get, the thing that people ever, everybody gets, is your environment shapes you.

Yeah.

Nobody can disagree with that. Your environment shapes who you are, the content you consume. Right. Movies, television, books, whatever influences you hang out with, like, you will just become a conglomerate of all of those things in the next five years. But the thing that people disagree on is that you shape your environment. You have the control over the environment that you're in. Ultimately, you have the ability to move. U hauls aren't that expensive. Go get a U haul and physically move to a different location. You should be willing to do that. If you genuinely say that these goals and dreams and ambitions and those things are so important to you and you have a deep motivation and why to attack those things, then you should be willing to pack up everything and move to a different place that has more opportunity, that puts you in a better environment. Because these friends from high school are weighing you down or whatever, you know, And I'm just using that as an example.

Yeah.

So, you know, if, if, if, if your environment is ultimately controlling who you become, but you are ultimately controlling what your environment is, then who has ultimate control over who you become?

That's right. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's your responsibility to create an environment that will shape you into the person that you want to become so that you're capable of achieving the goals that you want to achieve. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of people miss that part. They leave that part up to circumstances. You know, that's when, that's when the excuses start coming in. They're like, yeah, environment does shape you. But, you know, I wasn't born into money. I didn't get a silver spoon in my mouth. I didn't, you know, I didn't get the scholarship to the Ivy League school because my parents were multimillionaires and I didn't, you know, and it's just like okay, so what are you going to do about that now? Yeah, what about five years from now? You know, you're just going to let the environment that you're in currently continue to shape you into the version of yourself that you already are, because that version of yourself isn't capable of achieving the goals that you have set for yourself. And if. If that person is capable of achieving those goals, then your goals are all fucked up.

Yeah.

You know, you don't have the right goals.

Yeah, well, you know, I've. Yeah. I mean, and I'm just thinking back with what you're saying too, you know, in, you know, so coming from homelessness myself to where I'm at now, one of the things that I've seen, it's been a huge trajectory is even if I can't move my body, I can move my mind. I control what I watch, I control what I read. I can trust charts. Exactly. Exactly. You know, when as we. As we wrap things up, one of the things that I want to probably understand better is what is the number one thing someone should do today if they're trying to increase their network? What is the first step in making that.

Making sure that happens.

To get extremely practical here.

The number one thing that I've done for my network is have a podcast. It just genuinely is. And sometimes people look at that as a cop out answer, but it is literally I can't not answer that question with. With. With that answer because my network has been a direct correlation to the. To the podcast that I built. And it just. It's the perfect excuse to talk to a bunch of people. You know, the reason, like, a lot of people don't reach out to people they want to connect with is they don't really have a reason to do it.

It. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's like, well, you know, I would love to talk to Dean Graziosi or whoever.

Yeah.

But, like, what am I going to say? You know, I shoot him an email. He emails me back, great. That's the end of it.

You know, Mr. Graziosi, I love you, man.

Gee, thanks. Yeah. Yep. Like, cool. Thank you. And it's probably his va, you know?

Yeah.

So. So you got to have a reason. You got to have an excuse almost to connect with some of those people. And for me, the podcast was like, the perfect excuse. So that's practically philosophically the number one thing that needs to change is your reciprocity. Style should always match a giver.

Yeah.

Always be a giver. There's a great book on this called Give and Take by Adam Grant. Anybody that's listening that wants to be serious about building the network, I highly recommend you go read that book, Give and Take. But he outlines three reciprocity styles. Givers, takers, and matchers. And, you know, he's. I think he was voted best professor at Wharton School of Business for like, five years in a row or something. So everything that he writes is steeped in research. It's not just like, oh, I had this thought one time, and then he publishes it on Amazon. You know what I mean? It's very real research and data that's backed behind all the stuff that he puts out. And so givers, takers and matchers, they do a bunch of studies and figure out on the success ladder that each of these three groups land in different parts of the success ladder.

I'm going to give you a couple of guesses here, Steven. Who do you think ends up at the top of the success ladder?

I'm going to say the giver. I'm going to say the giver.

You're dead on. It's the giver. You know, and when I initially was thinking about it, when I first got started in all this, my first thought was, like, probably take her. Because, like, they just take from everybody, and their success matters more to them than anything else. But it's definitely just not true. The giver reciprocity style will always win long term.

Yeah.

Takers might seem like they're winning.

Yeah.

Fast forward the clock in a decade, and you'll find out who's actually one.

Yeah. Cause they'll have burned through all their relationships who. No. No longer, like, trust them or anything. So in their. They're dead in the water.

Yeah, exactly. Or they got to keep re. They got to keep reinventing themselves. They got to keep switching industries. They got to keep moving to new towns and building different relationships, because none of the people from their past worlds like them. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're takers.

Yeah.

And. And then. And then guess who's on the bottom of. Of the success ladder.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw out the takers. It's got to be the takers.

So what's interesting is that it's also. The givers are at the bottom and at the top. And so the rest of the book goes into. Which I'm not going to spoil for you. Goes into.

Now I have to get the book. Thanks a lot.

Tell Adam. Tell Adam you sold a book today. Probably a lot of books, actually.

Probably throughout the time that I've read it until now, probably quite a few. Yeah. So at the bottom, at the top. And then the rest of the book goes into how to make sure that you're a giver that ends up at the top instead of a giver that ends up at the bottom. Because, you know, the giver, some givers are allow people to treat them like doormats. Yeah, I've been both those people opposite of what you want, of what you want to be as well. So there is a little bit of nuance to it. But I highly recommend, recommend reading that book and then switching your reciprocity style, whatever you are naturally, because not all of us are natural givers. That doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means that you need to now on purpose, focus on giving without the expectation of receiving anything, anything in return. That is the very, very important, you know.

Caveat to the be a giver because some people are givers but because they want a bunch of things. And that technically wouldn't be a giver.

That's called a manipulator.

Exactly. That's somebody that will only give if they can receive something of equal value in return. And you don't want to be that person either. So read the book, change your reciprocity style and try to just be a giver and understand that.

The universe has your back on that. I know that sounds so woo woo and mystical and stuff, but the more good that you put out, the more good you're going to receive. Even if it's not a direct thing. Like if you do something specifically for one individual and that one person does not do something back for you ever. Like, I'm not, like, I'm not saying that that person is going to reciprocate in some way.

Yeah.

I'm just saying the more good you put out without ever expecting stuff back, stuff's going to come back.

Yeah, for sure.

You know, you're just going to start noticing that kind of, you're going to start picking up on that kind of stuff. The more, the more good you put out without expecting anything back in return, the more stuff is just going to come back in return.

Yeah, I mean, it's all gravity, man. It's all gravity, dude. I've enjoyed our conversation, man. Thank you so much for coming on. You know where can everybody find more about guest, CEO and you online?

Yeah. So if you want to go book high quality guests, you can, you don't even have to do it if you have a podcast. Look, this is like a talent booking marketplace. So if you have an event that you want a speaker for, if you have a podcast you want to interview somebody on, if you have a clubhouse club that you like to talk to people in, if you, if you want to talk to, if you want to just ask three or four questions, we have something called a mini view booking on there. You can book people for Q and A's. For your mastermind. You know, there's several different booking types, but you can just go to guestio.com and browse through the marketplace, see if anybody piques your interest. So guestio is guest, like be my guest IO.com and then anything about me. My personal site's kind of under construction at the moment, but. But depending on when you're listening to this, all of my social links and stuff are still accurate either way. So if you want to kind of have like the hub of where to find me, then you can go to travischapel.com, c h a, P, P, E L, L. But I probably spend the most time on Instagram, which is just at Travis chapel, so. But Travis Chapel.com will take you basically everywhere, anywhere you want to go.

Well, rock on, dude. Thank you so much again for coming on. We have to do it again in the near future.

Thanks a lot, man. Thanks for having me. This is fun.

All right, take care. Peace. If you love that interview, go ahead and check out this next one right here.

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