The BIG SIGNS He’s Wasting Your Time & How to Tell If He’s USING YOU! | Dr Stanley Tatkin

There's no such thing as a healthy relationship. It is what works and what doesn't work, what will work, what can work and what can never work. Do we do it when we don't feel like it? Yeah. Do we do it when we're angry with each other? Yeah. We do it when we're depressed. Yes. Because it serves a purpose. We're doing it because we think that's the best thing we could do in our union. We want that. So then it has, we have to agree. It's devoid of whether we feel like it or not, it must be done. That's what a purpose centered principle is.

I'm super excited to be talking to you. You know, I had a, briefly, a quick chance to catch up with you briefly offline before we hop on. And I, I told you that I had just come out of a long relationship that unfortunately had some narcissism, I think, kind of played into it and, and whatnot. And part of one of my selfish goals right now is to make sure that I am a healthy person getting ready to go into another relationship.

So maybe, if it's cool, maybe give me some insight on maybe some of the things that I should be focused on within me as it relates to, you know, having a, having a deeply narcissistic relationship ahead of time.

Well, I, I, you know, usually tell people, I wrote this in Wired for Dating, that people should look for the relationship they want, not the person. So if, you know, making a list of what the perfect relationship would be with person X is probably the best thing to do. Most of us look for the, you know, the person. Right. Describe a person, but not, not their morals, their ethics, whether they agree with what we want in a relationship, whether they are on the same page with us.

Before you get connected, before you get attached to somebody. So that's my best recommendation.

Yeah. Now, do you, I was gonna say, do you recommend like a season of reflection and just kind of like really digging in deep as you're making that list? I mean, like, you know, you don't make the list on a Saturday and start dating on a Monday kind of thing.

I, that would be, that would be a rush list. Like, you know, what do you call it? One of those fast delivery.

List, really quick and they deliver what you want? No, because I think, I think it's a meditation when you visualize the relationship. When you, when you put down what we would do in a partnership, what we would never do in the partnership, you're, you're basically defining a sense of purpose to the relationship other than love. Because love is not a great purpose.

Yeah.

Purpose is something that is devoid of feeling. We decide a purpose centered principle, like we'll have each other, each other's backs at all times because it serves a function for both of us. Even though it could be a hard thing to do, but we decided that's the best thing we could do. Right. So thinking about what we would do, not what I would do, and a period of contemplation about yourself. Individual psychotherapy, whatever floats your boat is always a good idea. But we learn the most about ourselves in a relationship. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it tends to bring the, the, in many cases that we'll call it the best out of this, but it can also bring out the most challenging side of us for sure. I know one of the things that I've been really kind of like not hesitant on, but really just kind of cognizant of is triggers. So triggers from prior relationships that basically lay dormant until they're triggered, so to speak. And I've been looking, trying to find a good way to, I don't know, I'll say pre trigger them, but deal with the triggers prior to them showing up in a negative way. Because I don't. Obviously the last thing you want to do in a, in a new relationship is wound the other person by accident, especially when they had nothing to do with it to begin with. And you know, when I was making, I actually, my grandfather told me to make a list, but he told me to start, you know, character qualities and stuff like that a number of years ago. And my list is probably closer to two pages now. Where before it used to be like maybe 12 items to your point of spending some, some quality time reflecting, you know. But as someone who considers themselves, I feel like I'm in a pretty healthy space. I feel like I'm in a pretty healed space. Overall. It, you know, obviously it sucks to go through any kind of ending of a relationship period. And it's never fun for anybody. No. But maybe are there some strategies or techniques to deal with triggers in a healthy way? You know what I've been, what I've been doing is the person I just started seeing recently is I've just, I was up front ahead of time. Hey, I've been through this type of experience. This is something that triggers me if I'm aware of it. If I'm not, then I'm trying to just work on it ahead of time.

The first thing I thought of is like somebody blowing up all their buried minds before they get into a relationship. If only that were possible.

Yeah, right.

I'm afraid it's whack a mole, you know, because it's not just your last relationship or we're memory animals. Everything we do is by memory. Most of our day is actually memory driven. We're not thinking most of the day, so it's too energy expending. So your memory when you meet somebody goes all the way back to childhood. Goes all the way back. So that's not true when you meet a friend or you have a business partner, but when you meet somebody who is potentially a love interest and then they become one, they become what's called a primary attachment object or a primary attachment figure. And the only relationship that's like that one is our earliest ones with the originals, which is why these relationships are so very difficult. So there's a lot of triggers that you don't even know about. Yes. Waiting for somebody that you meet. Probably you met them through recognition and familiarity, which means going to trigger you. And you're going to trigger them.

Sadly, no way around it. But there is a way to predict them after you get to know each other. And the way I see it, my way of thinking is that being in each other's care, I'm supposed to. If I were your partner, I'm supposed to be an expert on you. I'm supposed to know you, get to know you and where your triggers are. And I'm supposed to be, you know, a protector of you, not a provocateur. You're supposed to do the same for me. Because we can't really do that ourselves. If we could, we would, but we never can. So it's done this way. I have to know the animal I'm with. I have to know everything about you. How to approach you, how to talk to you. And I'll learn by blowing myself up.

Which is never fun, especially when the thing is fresh.

It's. It's trial and error. It's. It's learning through mistakes and then hopefully fixing them as soon as we make the mistake and then putting something in place for the next time to prevent repetition between us. Yeah, that's the key. But there is, there is, there's no way that that's ever going to happen because everything we do is through pattern recognition. You know, why did you look at me that way? Why did you nod your head that way? Why'd you say that word? That phrase? Yeah, but. So that's how we roll. Or animals.

Yeah. Well, it also seems like it also triggers like a Physiological nervous system response. And the times that I've been triggered in years past, I had one that crept up on me probably a week ago and I hadn't experienced it in 20 years. And one of the things that I realized in the moment was my body went into a physiological response that I didn't feel like I had any control over. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't. I wasn't blowing up a dam per se, but I wasn't necessarily being my best self. And as I was kind of going through that, that triggering event, I was wondering, I was trying to tie it back to an earlier event to see if I could uproot the trigger altogether, you know, so it almost made me pause before I entered, you know, deeply into a potential new love interest or relationship or spending time with somebody on a regular basis. It almost called me, said, okay, maybe I'm not ready yet. This, this one trigger happened. It had, you know, again, it hadn't been there for 20 plus years at least I hadn't been. I haven't had it trigger in 20 plus years, you know, so is there a point in time to know that you were in a healthy enough place to, to start to date, start to enter into your relationships or started looking at that or is it really kind of a roll of the dice.

Is a practice really? It really is. You know, I, it's not, you know, working on relationships isn't like anything else we do. We can't learn it alone in the cave. You know, that's why people go to therapists is because it involves another person or hurt by people and we're healed by people. We could do it alone, that would be great. But nobody seems to be able to, so. So it's, you know, it's done in a relationship. And the trigger. Are you talking about a trauma response? Is this an unresolved.

Well, you know, it's funny, after, after it happened, I spent quite a bit of time trying to. So what had happened was.

Somebody I was interested in had a. We were just, we were away. I literally, I literally had a. We currently have an opposite coast. So I live on the east coast. I currently live on the west coast. You know, in the long distance is allowing for a lot of in depth conversation, which has been great. It was one of the ways we were able to work through it, through this trigger. Mine really, really quickly is because of all the, all the groundworker conversations we had had earlier, which was good. But for some reason I had a dream, you know, because, because the time Difference was there I fell asleep, not at all for whatever. And I had a dream and I responded to her out of the dream when my waking state. So I woke up oh the ne the next morning. It was almost. The dream was almost so real. But even now I can't remember the dream. But it affected me in such a way that I presupposed something that occurred that didn't occur at all, not even remotely close. The person had never given me any evidence whatsoever that that dream was even remotely close to reality. But it triggered me in such a way that I responded as if it was true. Essentially what boil down to now this.

Person, though, you weren't seeing face to face.

No, no, no. In the, in the dream it was more of a. Almost like a movie play kind of thing in the waking state because we're on opposite ends of the coast. There's a lot of FaceTime right now kind of, you know, FaceTime and calls and travel back and forth is kind of what's going on right now.

Did you do that morning, though, when you talked to that person?

Did you do FaceTime though, in that morning? What had happened was we actually ended up having a text exchange. And in the text exchange, I was trying to articulate that I had been triggered. I wasn't assessing or, or placing blame. However, I'm. In my wording of my response, it asserted blame or asserted like as almost. It just, it was just poorly, really, really poorly worded, to be honest. That then triggered a FaceTime conversation where the person very clearly said, this is not okay. This is not a healthy boundary, which I appreciated kind of thing, which I appreciate a great deal, but that's kind of how it got. We worked through it really quickly, but that's, that's what occurred.

So here's what I recommend to everybody.

No, no dealing with anything that's complex, that's emotional, that's anything ever without being face to face, whether it's on FaceTime, FaceTime or, you know, whatever you. But you want to see the face because voice is not a good co. Regulator. We're visual animals. We, we correct error, correct our errors through the visual field, not the auditory, and definitely not through text. Text is the absolute worst, absolute worst.

Absolute worst way to handle a tricky situation.

I got you because, because we, we can't regulate each other through. Through this. We can't regulate each other through the phone very well because we're still visualizing the person according to our state of mind. Yeah, you were in a particular state of mind.

Yeah.

And, and Your state of mind wasn't altered by seeing the face as you talked. That's what I think got. Got you into trouble.

Yeah, it got me in trouble for sure. The crazy part was, is when we did FaceTime, literally a few moments later, as soon as I saw her, I realized I was an error.

Yes.

Like, I mean, it was instantaneous. Like, oh, dude.

Yeah.

You know, and I know better. Like, I'm in the. I'm in the personal development space, you know, and so. I'm just kidding. I've been kicking myself all weekend, so don't worry.

Well, I'm just saying this to your audience. Never get into arguments or talk about anything emotional while you're in the car driving. Because we're legally blind on the sides, and. And because we're so visual, when we see a face at a glance, our. The threat center of the brain actually fires rapidly, so we're set up for a fight. So you always want to be dead on, you know, straight ahead in order to be safe with each other. Otherwise. Otherwise stupid stuff happens. Yeah, yeah. Because. Because we. We make all these errors.

Yeah.

In appraisal, without the visual field. Even with the visual field, we make errors less, though. Yeah.

Yeah. What's interesting that you said that, because literally as soon as, as soon as we had the FaceTime, that's. I was. It was instantaneous. It was even a split second, I was like, oh, yes, I got this. I got this wrong.

Text is shitty. You know, email, terrible. But FaceTime or anything that involves, you know, direct connection, face to face is a good invention for us.

Okay, that's awesome. That's good to know. Fortunately, she's. She's a very strong character, driven woman and had a lot of grace and. And actually proceeded to help me work through it over the next two days, essentially, which was good. I think that it made me feel like, okay, I'm. I'm actually a little bit safer with her, you know, and so if something stupid occurs, I could tell her ahead of time now, face to face.

Right. It's so funny. I, I blame this on this. The answering machine. I, you know, I'm an old guy, so for me, when the answer machine came out, it was the first. It was the beginning of caring when. If people called or how many people called right before home, you'd answer the phone when I got an answering machine. We were first adopters when I was a kid. Suddenly I started being aware of when people called and if people called and. And then you had to call them back. Right. Well, now if Somebody texts you, you have to text them back and you have to do it really fast. Text gets people into a lot of trouble and so does email because we don't think before we write and we don't, we don't have time to settle in and we, you know, it begs impulsivity. So I wish we could all do away with that when it comes to relationships. Except you know, hi, bye, smiling Moji and everything. And I'll be home at 5:30. But nothing complicated, nothing relational.

Yeah, no, I love that. In fact it, this has been, this has already been therapeutic already. So this is good.

You know, I want to maybe pivot a little bit because I find, and this is obviously I'm, you know, I'm almost 50, I'm, you know, kind of living my life kind of thing. But one of the things that I've found is the vast majority of the people that I see entering into relationship and I'm being one of them, early stage life, you know, 20s, 30s, maybe early 40s even, there's an element of consistent codependency. In other words, you're, no one's really taught you how to have a healthy relationship so therefore you're just going off of kind of reactions and. But I find that most people aren't aware of what codependency is or what a healthy love life or relationship life should look like. And I was hoping maybe you could spend a few minutes and talk to us a little bit about codependency and kind of what the, the healthy contrast of a codependent relationship would be.

Well, a codependency comes out of the, a tradition, right? Alcoholics Anonymous. And I was there at that time, you know, I was, you know, immersed in, in that field of codependency and alcoholism and drug addiction. So unfortunately that's been ported over to modern day and is used and abused as a term to pejorative term. Actually codependency is a one way deal.

It is not bi directional in terms of two adults coming together based on terms and conditions. Deal or no deal, interdependent is different than codependent. Interdependent means that in any union, I and the other person, we have the same things to gain and the same things to lose. We have parity. Whereas in a codependency relationship one person has more to gain and lose or lose.

Right?

And, and so I'm doing and doing and doing, but I never get anything in return and it makes me angry and it fits with a life style or relational style of living for crumbs and. Right. And so I don't see myself as an equal. I don't expect to be an equal. With my. My philosophy, Secure, functioning relationships involves two generals, two bosses, two executives, two. Two people with equal power and authority, which means that they. They both abide by rules, principles of fairness, justice, mutual sensitivity. Otherwise, it's not. It's not going to work. Right. It's not working. The adult world.

Yeah.

So that's the difference. You and I would have to establish that we are equals and we're both drivers, no passengers, which means we have to work collaboratively and cooperatively. We have to create a structure where two generals can exist and still be as powerful as we actually are, but still work together. That takes planning. That takes organization. That takes understanding that we're two different people. Always annoying, always difficult, always disappointing. Nothing new there. But we do what everyone has had to do. We create a society. Our own civilization, our own principles of governance, how to protect each other from each other. And we do that rest of our relationship. So I have to do this. You have to do this because we decided that. Right.

Yeah.

Gave each other permission to enforce, so you got to do it. So that's how it's always worked. Right. We make agreements based on what we both think is the best thing we could do. The right thing we could do. We give each other permission to enforce with the idea that when enforced, the other person has to cooperate or you're in trouble.

Yeah.

So that works with people who are very different. That works.

So as it. It sounds like it comes down to a lot of core beliefs and values that are in alignment, and then you can strategically lay out as much as you can in advance how you're going to deal with certain situations.

Absolutely. That's the way businesses do it. That's the way the military does it. That's the way paramilitary organizations. That's the way bands, rock and roll bands. That's the way dance troops. You name teams. Teams always have to organize around shared purpose and shared vision. We want to win. We're a good team. We're going to work together. We're going to shore up each other's weaknesses because together we are extremely powerful. Alone, not so much. Yeah, with a couple together, we're better if we work together, but if we don't work together, we don't do anything.

Yeah, that makes total sense. I was just thinking, too, you know, if you're. If you're looking for two generals and each partner is bringing.

A lot to the table. For example, Maybe there's, I'm just thinking about the, some of the relations like, so I'm a high net worth individual currently, God willing, it'll say that way my partner may not be as high net worth of an individual, but they bring something different to the relationship that, that I, that to me is priceless. You know, in this case, there's a nurturing component, there's a partnership component, there's a, a mental alignment, a desire to connect on a regular basis component. To me, those are equally, if not more so important than my ability to provide as a provider, protector, security, that kind of thing. Is that an example of where two generals are in fact coming together? They're just bringing different types of things on an equal playing field?

Yes. It's like anything else. Where do you and I agree and where are we? The same. Now this is something different than most of us do. The human condition is such that we always look where we're different and where we disagree, we, we otherize. Right. We otherize. Yeah. Calling somebody codependent is another form of otherizing. Right. And we tend to do that. That's our, that's built in to our DNA. So we have to protect ourselves from that. And the only way you and I can create something is always looking to where we agree and where we're the same. So we disagree on this level, we move up a level and we do agree and then we can move down again. So that takes a higher level of organization and thinking.

One where we have to come up with things that are good for both of us or it will not work. Therefore, if I can't get you on board with my way, then we're back at the, at the, working this out. Because I can't do this without you being fully in.

Yeah.

Otherwise, otherwise we'll fight.

Yeah.

And we're trying not to fight because we want to get things done, we want to create things, we want to make things, we want to solve problems. We don't want to solve each other. That's war. So we have to think differently. And, and, and you're right, it is tactical.

Like any, any other group of people that are organizing to either stay alive, make money, succeed, win the award, win the contest.

Yeah.

We work together or we just don't work. That's just the cold hard facts. It's not about love, it's about unionizing, allying. And the only way we can do that is focus on, on and find where we are the same. When you think of how this country, United states even started 13 colonies. How do you get 13 colonies that are separate countries, basically, with their own commerce, their own interests, to band together to fight the British? Nobody wanted to do that. Maybe some, but not, you know, how do you organize everyone to come on board and unite for a single purpose or several purposes. Right. And share. That takes a lot of work. Finding common ground.

Yeah.

That'S, you know, there should be no excuse.

Yeah, yeah. No, it just makes you think. I mean, it sounds like. I mean, this is kind of goes back to your, your work in each other's care. Like you are legitimately in a healthy relationship, placing part of your well being in the hands of the partner. And some just at some level, it seems like.

Well, in each other. Right. We're bound by our social contract that, that our survival depends on us caring for each other. Just like in the foxhole, wartime, you know, we. We depend on each other to, to stay alive. Therefore, other differences begin to fade away.

Yeah.

Right. We don't care about that because. Because we have a common interest here. So we find the common interest that binds us, that creates a purpose for us being a union. One that is a big idea that goes. That carries us over time.

Yeah.

And that is the central organizing reason principle for us being together. It's not kids, it's not love, it's not attraction. It is. This is the best deal in town. And we're constantly making it such.

Yeah.

Because. Committed to forming, shaping this relationship in our image. Right. Therefore, we're duty bound to satisfy each other.

Yeah.

I can't, I can't afford for you to lose in a gambit because then I lose.

Yeah.

Our fates are tied. So it's a different way of thinking. Right?

Yeah.

It's not a one person think. It's a two person thing.

Yeah. Well, the good news is it seems like it's a. It's. It's a lot more effective with a two person thing based on your work and the success track record of your clients and whatnot. It also had me thinking one of.

The things it's just hard to do because.

Oh, no, it's. Yeah. But it's. I would say it's worth the investment though.

Yeah.

Because both partners end up being a lot more fulfilled in general. Less likely to pull away from each other. Right. There's an element. They allow, an element of grace and mercy when the other partner's not being their best self. You know, there's. And then I think that builds trust over time because, you know, I think I used to. And this is this quote May not be true anymore, but when I was A probably a 30 year old, I had this epiphany one afternoon that people aren't, don't love each other for who they are. They actually love each other in spite of who they are. Right. So you're, you're, you're good, you're bad, you're ugly, and this person still is like, I'm with you kind of thing, and then vice versa as part of that social contract, if you will. You're saying I'm also with you kind of thing.

Yes.

You know, in this last situation that I've mentioned at the, as we kind of got going here and talking, one of the things that I think really helped us in navigating this particular trigger, specifically when it was over, it, it felt like it was going to be the end of the relationship when it happened. But we were, we were able to make through it within, you know, 48 hours, which is great. Right? Again, that gave me more peace. And of course, there's been triggers on the other side as well that are kind of working, you know, that we work through very quickly as well. But when you look at the whole thing, one of the things that I think that helped us is we both came into the picture with the list, right? There was, there was character qualities and stuff like that. The list line up really, really well, which was great. But then we, I decided, I said, this works in business, maybe it'll work in relationships. So one of our little date nights, if you will, was me saying, okay, what is the vision for our relationship? I was like, what's our vision statement? So to speak.

Great.

And then we did, okay, what's our mission statement? Right? And we, we did those two things to say, okay, these are, these are what we, we both agree we want. So by definition, anytime either of us is behaving outside of these boundaries, the other person has the, the accountability responsibility to call us back into alignment.

That's secure functioning, my friend. That's what I write about.

I love it. I love it. Well, talk to me about. All right, so I kind of mentioned to you before, I think there are a lot of folks that come out of damaged relationships. It's very hard to trust again. It's very hard to kind of get yourself in a mindset of what it takes to create.

You know, the kind of relationships that your work provides. How does someone, again, kind of begin to trust again, I guess is the best way to say it. I mean, it seems like it's really, it would be really easy to get struck or stuck in a traumatic and mindset or episode based on memories and other experiences and stuff like that. How does one kind of shake that off? Because it seems like most of us, when we don't shake it off, we end up attracting that all over again. You know, you end up mirroring that, that same thing all over again. So how do we, how do we kind of move the mirror, so to speak?

So, you know, we come to the table with a set of fears. Sometimes it goes all the way back, like I said, to childhood when it's attachment especially. So those fears, whether it's, you know, recently caused or, you know, anciently caused.

Lead us to protect ourselves in ways that are threatening to another person. Right. Protecting me, but it threatens you. Yeah, that's one thing. The reason we love is because we must, not because it's convenient. The reason that we trust is because we must. It's not because, you know, you prove it to me, you can disprove to me that you're trustworthy, that's a problem. But if you haven't done that, I, and I, part of, of growing up is being willing to put my neck out and to trust you. Right. I give you my trust, you give me your trust, and this becomes our, our responsibility to each other. If I hesitate to give you my trust, you hesitate to give me your trust, and now we're not as trustworthy.

Yeah, makes sense. Yeah.

So I give you my trust because I can, because it is a gamble, because I am putting my neck out, but it's also I'm handing over an awesome responsibility. Don't screw this up, pal. You know, I am going to put my money on you. You're going to put your money on me because we're, we're, we're going to, you know, invest in each other rather than, you know, hold back. People who hold back cause problems because they create insecurity in the other person. Right.

Yeah.

So if you're going to go all in, go all in and, and, and then work inside the relationship, not half in, half out. That causes, you know, if we were to do a, an autopsy on the many failed relationships, probably would find that at least one of those partners wasn't fully in.

Yeah.

And that caused a, an existential issue in that relationship throughout without even realizing it. So I trust you because that's what, that's what I do as an adult. I must do that. I need to have someone I trust. Therefore, I'm not going to withhold that from myself.

Yeah.

If, if you're going to mess with me. You're. You're done. That's it. Go on to somebody else. That was your problem. You couldn't play the game that I wanted to play.

Yeah, no, that's, that's. Wow. Makes me think though. You know, one of the things that I feel like the couples struggle with and something I've struggled with in past relationships is.

One, not being able to communicate my needs in a safe. In a safe way. So this is something I feel like I need from this relationship. And you either don't say anything or you miscommunicate it or you. I get, I. Others, I think get confused. Confused between wants and needs or non negotiables kind of scenario. How do we get to a place where we can communicate in a healthy way? What needs? What needs we have? Like, you know, because I find that most, from what I've seen most relationships that both partners never really, at least so far, have, have yet to feel safe enough where they can accurately communicate needs across the board. My emotional needs, my physical needs, my spiritual needs, if they're there, you know, all these different, these components that make up the complexity of a relationship. You know, I don't know that people are really good at communicating. This is what I'm hoping to gain out of the relationship.

Well, first I would recommend that people get rid of the word healthy when it comes to relationships. There's no such thing as a healthy relations. There's nobody that has written a book to say, you know, through research, what is a healthy relation? What isn't it is what works and what doesn't work, what will work, what can work and what can never work. Right. That's what we want to focus on. And so, so you first with your part. You, you, you legislate. Do we both want to be in a relationship where we can, we can use each other as confidants and express on what we think and what we want and what we need. Do we want that? Both of you probably will say yes. Now how do you, how do we want to do that? Are there any instances where we shouldn't do that? We decide no, there really isn't any instance in all instances. If we're going to choose each other, why not? That's why we get paid. The big box. Why outsource that? Why keep it to ourselves? We're a team. The left and right hand have to know the same thing. So there's a practical reason and why not? So, so yeah, let's do it. Do we do it when we don't feel like it. Yeah. Do we do it? We're angry with each other. Yeah. Do we do it when we're depressed? Yes. Because it serves a purpose. We're doing it because we think that's the best thing we could do in our union. We want that. Right. We want that. So then it has. We have to agree. It's devoid of whether we feel like it or not. It must be done. That's what a purpose centered principle is. Otherwise there's no reason to have it.

Yeah.

So you both decide what, what is your culture going to be? It's made. Relationships are wholly made up. They don't exist except in our heads. So the two of you co create. You're the creators of this thing. Constantly. You can make it anything you want. You just have to agree.

Yeah.

You just have to agree and then give each other permission to enforce.

Yeah.

And then you get there. Right. But you can only do that as a team. You can't do that alone. Right. I can't get out of a habit alone. I can't get out. You know, I can, but it's really hard. I can't get out of something stupid. I do. That's repetitive and reflexive and automatic. I need to, I need to employ you to tell me when I'm doing it. With the agreement that when you tell me, I will yield or cooperate.

Yeah.

And that's how I learn. That's how you learn. Right. So we're giving each other permission to, to train each other, boss each other around when necessary based on previous agreement and permission to enforce. That's it. Otherwise. Otherwise we'll fight.

Yeah. No, I love it. I actually love the fact of a. I never thought about it as being a co creator partnership, if you will. But that's precisely what I've been doing recently. You know, even creating the vision. Like what do we, what do we believe in?

That's great.

What does this relationship look like five years from now, ten years from now? And I don't think that people naturally think about relation. They, they, they want happily ever after, but they never define what happily ever after really is. If that makes sense.

Only union that doesn't do this. It's the only union that does not do this. And there's a lot of reasons for that. One of which is that there is no organizing idea about why, why couple, why pair bond other than procreation and then everyone else's fantasies about it, their expectations and their entitlements to it. No business would be started that way. You don't start a business because you fell in love with someone. You start a business because it's a deal. Right. You, you both are wanting to work together and like you said, shared vision, shared purpose, shared mission.

And, and affection is of course a part of that. This is not to say love is not part of this. Yeah, but, but emotions cannot dictate unions because emotions are not predictable, they're unreliable and they make people do horrible things. Right. A lot of things are done, you know, that are terrible in the name of love. So we have to be purpose centered, which protects feelings.

Right?

Protects feelings. And that's something that love relationships. It doesn't occur to people to do that.

Yeah.

And that's, that's the downfall. So yeah, you're, you are organizing, you are taking seriously that the, your two people, you guys against the world. Hopefully you're making yourselves the most important people in any room. You two come first before everyone and everything else.

Yeah.

Because you're in charge. If you think of this way, you're in charge of everyone and everything else they are. It is depending on you being in good shape. The two of you have to consider each other first and then everyone else else. Otherwise. Otherwise everyone and everything suffers. If you look at it.

Yeah. I mean, it's almost like an energy when, when a relationship is suffering everything else around it, everybody can sense the relationship of suffering.

Absolutely. Your work, your health suffers and if you have kids, they suffer. Happy parents, happy kids. So, so it has to be organized this way. Otherwise, you know, it's pointless.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because one of the, one of the core values that the person I just. Again, we've been seeing each other a little, a little over a month now. It's been up until my one trigger. It's been great. But again, that was a great test run of what, what happened, how we would deal with a trigger regardless of who the trigger happened with, if that makes any sense. So I, in a roundabout way, after the fact, I was like, this was actually a beautiful thing.

There's, there's an old thing about, you know, the couple wakes up and one of them dreams about the other one cheating. And as soon as they wake up, that person who had had the dream hit the other and said, you know, you're cheating. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

You get the dream, therefore you are right. But the dream conveys a, you know, maybe a worry, you know, a fear.

Well, well, the brain itself, you know, if I'm not mistaken, thinks in terms of pictures.

Yeah.

Like Images. Right. So from what I've seen, even like, if you look at the studies behind visualization and how that affects you in a positive way, I would assume, or having a negative experience, it's a. Visualization will have a similar experience because the body doesn't know the difference.

That's right. If you. If you both point somewhere. If you point somewhere, you'll tend to go there. Right. If this is where I intend to go, this will be the end result. I see myself in that position. I keep seeing myself in that position. I'm more likely to get there than if I couldn't see myself. Right. If I couldn't visualize it. And partners visualizing together what they want, where they're going, are. Are more likely to get there.

That's good to know because we've been. We've been very. This is probably the first relationship in my life personally, that I have been this focused on being this intentional about personally. And it seems that the. The partner that I'm currently seeing is. Is very much in sync with that. I think we've kind of like, we're old enough now. We're like, yeah, if this isn't a priority, this. This won't work with you, me or anybody. It's got to be like a. A super healthy priority. And as a result, we've had a lot of, like I said, a lot of good benefits as a result of it, which has been great. So one of the things I wanted to mention to you or kind of discuss with a little bit is, you know, Wire Together was a massive success and. And super helpful.

Wire. Wire for Love.

I'm sorry, Wife for Love.

But it's wired to get.

I just got him convinced for you. But the. You know, but in each other's care. What was missing from work number one, to work number two, that you felt like the. That relationships or couples needed to. To have a thriving relationship.

That's a great question. There's been an evolution through Wired for Love, actually Love and More, which is the first book through we do, which was, you know, the one prior to each other's Care. In each Other's Care was written during. During COVID And even though there's, you know, my approach is actually neurobiological, psychobiological and developmental. I started focusing on social contract theory and. And that at the top of this is not why we do things in relationships, is that we do things that we sh. We shouldn't do that are destructive to the human. Right.

Yeah.

So I wanted to get across to people who've read my other books because I think you need to have that background. Yeah. To get across the. That the reason most relationships will not work. This is universal. Is one, you didn't build anything together, you didn't create anything. There is no structure. You're flying an airplane that's not fully built, that's dangerous. And the other is not understanding how we operate as human primates. The manner in which we will interact when under stress is very warlike. So there are certain precautions and things we have to learn about the brain and about our, our heritage as human primates that are, that are cautionary and that are. That we have to know in order to stay intact. When one or both of us is under stress. That's the main thing. When we're good, you and I will be fine. It's when either of us are under stress or talking about a stressful topic that we will revert to a one person system of I, me, my and you. That's when we go to war. And, and this is, this is all of us. This is war with our children. We go to war with our neighbors and go to war with the government. We, you know, we. Right. This is just our nature. So we have to understand how the mind works, how people work, how our partner works in order to circumvent the threat system, which is always engaged, always searching, scanning for threat cues. And, and that's just who we are. It's not a fault, it's just, it's a feature.

Yeah.

Survival. It's a bug in love relationships.

Yeah.

And so that under. So those two things are covered in the book over and over and over again, which is broken down by common complaints I see in my clinic over the years.

Yeah.

But basically is teaching the same thing. Structure, organization, agreement. You know, working together as a team and then also practicing how to, how to talk to each other under stress without setting fires, without, you know, without becoming adversaries, without building up threat.

Yeah.

That's hard to do, but it's doable. And we've been doing it over the course of civilization.

Well, in the last couple minutes we got left. First of all, where can everybody get the book? And also, I think everybody should take advantage of your couple's retreats and seminars. Your work is fantastic. Um, it's helped a lot of couples and I've been following your work. Now briefly, I was introduced to you a few weeks ago by a mutual friend and been inspired. It's part of the reason why I think some of the focuses in this new relationship have been. What they've been is because I began to understand that, oh, we're in. This is an agreement. Like, this is something that we. And it's interesting enough that even today, if we were to text back and forth, not me and you, but me and this person, somehow throughout the course of the day, we mentioned what we're building.

Yes.

Like from day one, it's been like, we are going to build this together.

Yes.

You know, so there's, there's a constant connection around that. But where can I find out more about the book as well as the retreats?

I just want to tell you what you're. What you are doing is what my research shows. And I think history also shows that the two of you are more likely to endure over the long run and stay and remain happy if you continue doing what you're doing in the spirit you're doing it.

I am telling you that, you know, you're more likely to last longer this time, happier both of you and, and really thrive the way you're going about this. I wish more people would naturally do this. So I would love you to read. We do. And then.

Okay, I'll take that. I'll take some new homework. We can do it together. No, I love it.

So people can find me@the PactInstitute.com that's the P A C T Institute dot com. If you're a clinician. We train therapists all over the world and psychiatrists if you are. If you are that or just a couple. Just person interested in relationships. You'll find a lot of information there. And we do couple. My wife and I do couple workshops throughout every year all over the world. And we're going to do one in Portugal next year if people want to come. Those are always great.

And I think you said that that one's at a five star venue, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. That those little.

You get a little vacation spoilage.

It is. It is. These are five star retreats and, and they're always in Europe and they're great. I mean, but. And really worthwhile. But they're expensive. You can't do that. Do the workshops. Those are. Those are really powerful.

Yeah. But I mean, I would say that these are all right. So the most important relationship that you're ever going to have in your life is the person you sleep next to.

Yes.

They're going to be the ones that are going to influence the most of your life. Right. Wrong or indifferent, positive, negative, whatever. That person is so important. So what I don't think is one of the things I've learned.

They're probably one day going to save your life, too.

Yeah. Yes. And even take care of you if. If you're. If your life's at stake, for that matter. But one of the things that I'm thinking about is of all the relationships you should invest in, that's the one, you know, because a lot of us will do business conferences left and right and center, and we'll completely avoid our. Our partner. Our key partner relationship. So I got a good friend of mine, Henry and Terry and Amar, and they're. They were really big when they started dating and actually doing couples retreats on a regular basis because they realized that they were building something.

Yes.

So it's interesting. They have one of the best relationships that I'm familiar with, and it's interesting how similar the lifestyle that they live follows. Your roadmap for relationships.

Yes. You know, our. My relationship with Tracy, who I write about a lot, my partner. We didn't become successful until we became a couple. That's because we learned how to free up resources and. And to work this way together. And so, you know, I. I really recommend. And I'm a difficult person.

I'm not. I'm not so easy myself. I bet, so.

Well, if you're a human primate, you're probably in some ways a pain in the ass.

So that's not a problem. Yeah, it's never been a problem. If you. If you understand the rules of engagement and you've created something with two. Two, Like I said, two bosses, two leaders. There's nothing like it. But then you have to grow up.

That's right. Well, Dr. Stan, I appreciate you so much. I appreciate your work. Appreciate all you guys are doing. I look forward to many more books as well as workshops and retreats that you guys do. You guys are phenomenal, and you've done wonders for the relationship industry. So thank you for doing that.

Thank you. And I want to hear what goes on. What goes on with.

Oh, we'll definitely stay connected. We're new friends now.

Right. All right, Dr. Stan, have a good day.

Thank you, Stephen. Thank you.

I hope you liked that video. And if you did, make sure you check out this next video right here.

Faith based is full of hope, but faith fueled is the miraculous realized.