The Secret Formula For Success! | Erwin McManus

And I think a lot of times when you see people who are incredibly successful, you think there's got to be some really complicated, mysterious code. It's not, you know, when you find someone who has a good marriage and has a great relationship with their kids. My son's 35, my daughter's 31. They both live within eight minutes of me. I see them almost every single day. But it wasn't rocket science. There were basic frameworks we established in our lives that allowed us to have incredibly beautiful relationships. Those are the kind of things I want to pass on to people.

Dude, this M Shift book, dude, it's incredible.

Oh, thank you so much.

Seriously, I, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm like any, I'm like you. Right. We're self taught, personal professional learners and that's, I find that the most successful people in the world are absolutely. My first mentor a long time ago told me if I was going to do anything in life, I had to do one thing and one thing only. And that was change the way I thought. If I could change the way I thought. And I e. Learn to think like him versus my father at the time, that literally there's nothing that I could not do. And you know, hindsight being 2020 and having that trajectory of my life and things of that nature, it's, it's been pretty powerful to see it manifest itself in being truth. Right. And so when I started going through the book Mind Shift, I was like, man, this is, this is really, really, really spectacular because it, your perspective and how you phrase terms or look at concepts or it makes it very easy to attain it and then put it into practice, which I greatly appreciate. But I'm curious to know out of the first, out of the gate, why do really great people think really poorly or make really bad decisions?

That's a great question.

It's a great starting point. You know, I was going to say about school, you have to get out of school to finally begin to learn.

Is that the truth?

But, but I think that's, you know, if you're really good at something, it gives you a pass on a lot of other things. And so if you happen to be, you know, a fantastic physical specimen and you're a great athlete, you know they're going to give you classes where you don't have to study.

Yeah.

And you think they're helping you, but actually what they're doing is they're really hurting you because they're teaching you to ignore growing holistically as a human Being and that you need to develop internal disciplines for success. So the reason really successful people really think in incredibly stupid ways is because rapid success gives us a way out of personal growth.

Yeah.

And we don't like to say that out loud. We like to pretend that, you know, rapid success and personal growth go hand in hand. But they don't. Sometimes we have, we were a one handed, you know, baseball player.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

We can only catch what we can't throw.

And what I find is that it's really challenging because a lot of the people I work with are at the highest level of success.

Yeah.

And. And now they're having to learn some very basic mental frameworks just to be able to have a marriage that survives or to have to parent and have kids that don't hate them all their lives and to not die alone. There's just some basic things that get lost in the process.

Yeah. No. Well, I also think that after studying a lot of your work that the key focus on the intention behind what you're trying to build or what you're trying to go after. And I would say from my own personal journey.

I had to have outside influences to help me understand what types of mind shifts I needed. Like how I needed to think differently in different areas. What does it take to have a level of self awareness to, well, kind of understand what, where it is you're maybe kind of struggling at or where you could use improvement on to really have a place to really set an intention and focus? Yeah.

I think one of the advantages that I've had in my life is that I didn't have any inherent natural talent.

I would disagree with that.

But.

Okay, knock yourself out. Go ahead.

You know, I mean, I, or let's say this, I had latent talent that I didn't discover until different phases of my life.

Yeah.

Which I think should be a point of hope for a lot of people who think, wow, I don't have any natural talent.

Yeah.

Frankly, a lot of the things that people identify as a top tier talent in my life, they didn't emerge until later.

Yeah.

And you know, because human beings are really complicated creatures. Right.

You know, that's true.

And so a lot of the mind shifts that I learned to make were in the struggle of just trying to have some basic success in my life. You know, so I wasn't learning them when I was achieving a much higher level of success. The kind of success that people, you know, usually admire or they want to try to emulate. They didn't realize I didn't learn those mind shifts when I was successful. I learned them when I, I was struggling and, and then I became a voracious learner. I couldn't find a mentor. I wanted a mentor so bad. But you know, mentors have to be selective.

Yeah.

You know, they have to choose someone they believe has the capacity to embrace what they're teaching at a rapid rate. And I didn't show those characteristics early on, so I understand why I didn't get picked in the process, you know.

Yeah.

But I also realized even if they didn't pick me, I could pick them.

So I, you know, yesterday thing. I'm basically like a behavioral psychologist. I've studied human beings for, you know, six decades and from professionally at University of North Carolina studying even abnormal psychology. I, you know, I went through the whole process studying geniuses and studying sociopaths. I mean I, I really tried to understand the nuances of human behavior and understand what behaviors, what mental constructs led to an optimal level of life and which ones actually limited people. And that's what I distill in mind shift.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I hope you notice how simple the book. But it is. But it's awesome.

That's. I think that was, I think that's actually what gives it the power it has and the punch that it has. I find that most folks who are consuming personal professional development content on a regular basis are always looking for the hack. They're always looking for the secret. Right. They're always looking for some kind of like complex way to manage their life, manage their business, manage their relationships. And I've been one who's discovered through I guess life and then some of my own mentors along the way that it's the principles that you apply that really make it some simplistic. And that's the thing is one of the things I love about the book. There's some, there's a lot of meat on the bone, don't get me wrong in the book. But there's also a lot of simplistic. The way in which you break it down for folks gives a unique perspective and a unique bite sized approach to conquering those types of maybe things that are kind of in their way that have to be shifted which is what I love. In fact, one of the, one of the things you just mentioned that I, that I really love the book about the book is in one of the chapters you talk a lot about the perception of talent.

Yeah.

Right. And you're saying, you know that most. You gave me, you gave you some. Several examples I'll let you kind of share on it. But, you know, several examples of people with immense talent that didn't go very far. Meanwhile, you had people that had no, seemingly no talent or hidden talent or unutilized talent that through hard work and diligence and willingness to work on self and stuff like that, really grinded it out. And so much so that one of the quotes that you mentioned, I'm gonna butcher this a little bit because it's coming from memory, but is that if you, if you can't find a talent, it probably means you're. You're heading towards leadership.

Yeah. It's a question my son asked me when he was like 10, 11 years old, dad. You know, I don't seem to have any, like, unique talent. And it's because his little sister had a lot of early expressions of talent. Very musical, could sing, could write, could play any instrument, you know, so when you have that contrast with your three year younger sister who could just naturally pick up languages. Right. Who just, you know, like, I don't have any talent. And I said, if you don't have any visible talent, you have to get the leadership.

Yeah.

And that's the way I always understood myself. And. But I want to say part of the reason I wrote the book the way I wrote it, and I had to fight with the publisher to make the book really small. And it's not simplistic, but it's simple. And the reason is, have you ever got to a doctor and they tell you what's wrong with you, but it's.

Like so complicated you can't pronounce half the words? Yeah.

Yeah. In fact, I remember one time I was like, well, you know, you have an autoimmune, you know, disease. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to die. And I go, well, what does that mean? They go, well, you have a rash.

So scare the crap out of you for no reason?

Yeah. It's probably caused by an allergy or something. I'm like, yeah, why do you have to begin with, like, language that terrifies us?

Yeah.

And I think a lot of times when you see people who are incredibly successful, you think there's got to be some really complicated, mysterious code.

Yeah.

And it's not, you know, when, when you find someone who has a good marriage and has a great relationship with their kids. My son's 35, my daughter's 31. They both live within eight minutes of me.

They.

I see them almost every single day. We work together. My daughter works with me at Mosaic on one side, My son works with me in the arena on the other side. And we have a beautiful relationship, but it wasn't rocket science. They were basic frameworks we established in our lives that allowed us to have incredibly beautiful relationships. Those are the kind of things I want to pass on to people. Like talent is a hallucinogen.

Yeah.

I've been a Clipper fan for 20 years, so I know what it's like to live with pain.

And in the middle of the night, because I wasn't sleeping, I saw that James Harden was traded to the Clippers.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, James coming to la. Right. You know, and I'm getting all these different, you know, notes. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Because, you know, I, I, I, I, I'm really interested in sports and, and I'm pretty good analyst on, on most, on trades and deals and. But one of the dilemmas for me is when you look at James Harden, because some people think, oh, talent is hallucinogen, so you can't be successful if you only build on talent and don't have discipline and don't have structure and don't have character. But James is, I think, the opposite example. He's so talented that he perhaps could have been the greatest player who ever lived. Yeah, but he, but on a scale of 1 to 10, if Jordan is a 10 in discipline, I'd say James has to be like a one.

And so when you're looking at someone who will probably end his career without winning a championship, I mean, I hope he does with the Clippers. That'd be great. Right. You know, but, but the track record wouldn't.

Make us expect that outcome. Not because of his talent. To me, it's like he, he, he has such extraordinary talent that he doesn't have to work hard or he doesn't have to be disciplined. He doesn't have to take on those structures that really elevate because he's so talented.

Yeah.

But think about everything he will have left on the table that he never actually actualized in his life because he didn't have the same level of, of disciplines that Jordan had or, or that a Steph Curry had.

Yeah. Well, if you think about it, I mean, even in the book, you give an example of Jordan playing baseball.

Yeah.

Right. He, he put in countless hours, you know, throwing a, throwing a ball at a hoop and, and flying through the air and all kinds of stuff and, and didn't do as well in baseball. And, you know, it's the Same kind of approach as, you know, it's. It didn't. He didn't put the. Well, we can assume that he didn't put the same level of intensity or effort that he put into basketball into his baseball career, at least early on anyway.

He just didn't put in the years.

Yeah.

You know, even if he put the same level of commitment in the short amount of time he was playing baseball.

Yeah.

Basketball was really the tens of thousands.

And millions of hours. Yeah.

Product of endless, endless, repetitive, you know, points of discipline in his life.

Yeah.

And. And so I imagine he translated some of that discipline to baseball. But. But, you know, sometimes we expect too much too fast, you know, and. And the thing with mind shift, and it's one of the reasons I tell people you don't have to read it from beginning to end. Pick the chapter that speaks to you the most right now. You're going to need the other chapters later. And. And then the reality is that it's not a mind shift. You make once, and then everything's changed. You know, your mind will go back to your previous way of thinking, and you have to keep going back to this mind shift throughout your entire life. And I actually think that's the discipline of greatness is not that you're also taking on a certain pattern of practice, but you're constantly forcing your mental structures to move in the direction of your optimal performance.

Yeah. Well, that goes back to one of your other chapters, which is all about, you know, kind of making sure you're not your own ceiling. Right. Is getting yourself putting yourself in a position to take in new information. I find that a lot of folks say they want a great life, they want a great business, they want a great marriage, they want a great this, they want to create that, but seldom are they doing. Taking just one activity every single day, whether it's reading a book, whether it's, you know, watching a podcast, you know, watching something that's not entertain of entertainment value, but more of life value, you know, and as a result, I think we keep ourselves under that ceiling. Right. We don't allow ourselves to kind of do that. So maybe give me a couple of strategies or techniques that you've been. Because you're not. You now, you know, kind of lead multiple businesses. You have Mosaic Church, which is massive, you know, 20,000 plus streams, I think, weekly. I mean, just. It's massive. You have a clothing line that you developed. We share a lot of really good friends and Ed and John and a few others. And I know what their lives are like, you know, but yet not only have you. Have you now achieved a certain level of success that most people would aspire to attain, but on top of that, you also are very well, I've been in your presence a handful of times with different events, and you have a humble presentness about you. Right. Which means that you've been through some stuff that have. That's created the. The mechanics, if you will, of kind of putting all this together. But maybe help me understand some strategies and maybe some routines that you use currently today to keep yourself in balance or what perceived. What is perceived in balance to be as successful as you are.

Yeah. Last night in our. In our home, I had our entire staff come both from Mosaic and from my business, and we had dinner for everyone. We hung at the house for three or four hours, you know, played foosball and played ping pong and just hung and talked about. And I don't know a lot of CEOs who actually just invite everyone to their house.

Not many.

And it's everyone. It's not just like executive staff, you know, and if you're a personal assistant, if you're an intern, they're all at my house, and everyone has equal access, and they're all treated incredibly well, and no one is treated in any hierarchical way. And, you know, I'm walking around offering people hot sauce for their barbecue.

And the reason I mentioned that is because I think the way you do that is you stay really connected to people. And I think humility really comes out of a love and a value for people and where you never come to the place where you think you're better than other people.

Right.

And, you know, you're different and you're. And you're. And you're better at certain things.

Yeah.

But you're not better than them in terms of value. And I think that's kind of kept me grounded throughout my life. I remember one time my wife and I were walking down the street and there were these guys that were clearly immigrants sitting on. On, On. On the sidewalk with a paper bag, pulling out their sandwich with, you know, the white bun. And. And I said to my wife, you know how they. There's an adage that says there, by the grace of God, you know, go I or bi. I told her, I said, that was me. See, I'm the immigrant that was working construction that was sitting on the side of the street eating my sandwich out of a paper bag. That is who I was. It's not who I could have been. It's who I used to be. And when I was that guy, I still had infinite value.

And unseen potential.

Right.

If in some sense I look back and go, if my boss could have understood who he was, paying minimum wage to dig a ditch.

Yeah.

He would have trained me to run this company.

Yeah.

His company would have done way better.

Yeah.

And so I just remind myself that there is so much untapped and unseen potential in every human being. You know, treat all of them like one day they're going to be Elon Musk.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I was also thinking back to a. I had another one of our mutual friends on not long ago and we got into talking about the King David. For some reason we just, we ended up there out. It's one of my. One of my more favorite places in the Bible. And we were talking through it and I had this interesting realization that King David was. He became a king in a cave, not in a palace. Like it was the hours, days, weeks, years, persecution like. And always operating in character and integrity and things of that nature. That kind of set the stage for him to transition into a headship or leadership or kingship role. At the same time, you know, there's a. There's this key chapter in the book that I think is pivotal and I don't think enough people take advantage of this in their life. I think it's. I think we talk a lot about it and I'll. And it'll make more sense in a second, but we talk a lot about the importance of our, our relational circle and things of that nature. And you know, at least for me, when I was, when I started my first business that I ever had was a construction business. Right. And that's the one I started with a nail and a hammer and grew to a sizable business. And, and that set the stage for anything else that followed it. Right. And it dumbfounded me that when I was building the organization that I couldn't. I literally could not take everybody with me.

Yeah.

You know, I had so many people that fell off, they wouldn't grow. I had to. I was, you know, as the leader, I had to force myself to grow and become a leader of sorts. And it really broke my heart. Some family, some friends, you know, some acquaintances. But at the end of the day, I could go and see that immense potential. I could see that immense value, but they wouldn't see it for themselves or couldn't see it for themselves for whatever reason. And then self selected, you know, out of the circle, so to speak. So maybe look at it from a Couple different angles. Because I think it's one of the more. I think it's. I think all the chapters are powerful, but it's one that resonated with me in. In memory, I was, like, going through all these different people that have come through my life, you know, and I said, was it reason, season, or lifetime? But, you know, why can't we take everybody with us? And. And maybe kind of. How did you learn that same lesson?

Yeah. Chapters one and chapters three are like an ink block test. Chapter one is it's all about people. And then chapter three is you can't take everyone with you. Now, I find that some people are naturally. It's all about people and really struggle with the shift of. You can't take everyone with you.

Yeah.

And some people. You can't take everyone with you is really easy for them. In fact, for them, you got to say, hey, it's all about people.

Right? Yeah.

And so even as you're listening to this conversation, you might want to read those two chapters and ask yourself, which one of these two chapters do I actually need to add to my life? For me, it's all about People was easy. You can't take everyone with you Was devastating, and it slowed me down tremendously because I did not make these mind shifts on a Tuesday. Right.

20 years or 30 years of Tuesdays.

Yeah. It was a lot of Tuesdays and a lot of going back to Monday, as if I didn't know this principle. And I cannot tell you how many times I would try to take people with me who didn't want to go with me. They were going kicking and screaming, and I. And I thought I was doing them a favor. I wasn't doing them a favor.

Yeah.

And. And. And I spent 10 years working with the urban poor. And one of the things I began to realize is that you can give people opportunity, but they have to bring their own determination.

And. And so I. I look at life in individuals from this particular intersection, and I feel like my responsibility as much as possible to give as many people as I can opportunity.

Yeah.

Opportunity they would have never had if I had not intersected into their lives. And. But it's not my job to give them determination.

Yeah.

So you don't. You don't have to bring any wealth with you, any resume, any success, you know, any. Any track record. All you have to do, all you need to bring is determination. And when you bring determination, everything else becomes irrelevant.

Yeah.

Because that opportunity will not be wasted. I just hired someone yesterday. We just hired them. And in the last interview after they're hired, you know how you have a conversation, they made a statement of, well, wait a minute, how much PA work is going to be involved? And, you know, personal assistant stuff. And it instantly raises, like, this caution. And so she was at dinner last night, and I said, hey, I know you asked this question how much, like, you know, personal assistant work will actually be involved. She goes, well, yeah, yeah, I asked. I just wanted to know, you know, what percentage. And I said, hey, I want you to know we all do personal assistant work here. And, you know, I. I'm the one that went and got the hot sauce and started bringing barbecue sauce to everyone. Like, it's not beneath me. Like, my wife spends the day preparing this whole house for, you know, for you guys. It's like, it's not beneath her.

Right?

And I tell her, I said, the question you should ask is not how low do I have to go, but how high I have the opportunity to go. And so I started bringing people on staff and who were running massive, you know, projects or their executive level. And I go, where'd you start? Like, well, you know, I started as a graphic designer for you. How much graphic design experience did you have? And he said, zero.

I was terrible.

Mustard seeds.

Yeah. Another guy, you know, like, oh, I started driving. I was. I was a truck driver for you, driving the truck. And. And. And these are the people running everything. And. And then our general manager, I brought her over and I said, so how did you start? She goes, well, I started as an intern. And I said, that's right. And what job did you get after that? She goes, I was an assistant to your assistant.

So now you're running everything? You're everyone'?

Yeah.

And I think sometimes we ask the wrong questions. We, you know, it's almost like, you know, hey, do I have to. Do. I have to do, like, serving stuff as opposed to what's the ceiling in this place? Yeah, because. And I told him, I said, the limit to your job is completely based on you.

Yeah.

The starting point is where you earn your credibility.

Yeah.

And. But it's just the floor. It's not the ceiling. Yeah, you're the ceiling.

Well, I know we. I know we share the same Lord, and it was common for him to serve not just the masses, but also his disciples at scale. You know, even going as far as washing the feet and, like, really trying to set the tone of what. What service looks like. And I'm like, you. I'm with you. I am. When we hire staff, doesn't matter which business it's for even today, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it was one of my executive team or if it's the, you know, a driver or, you know, someone setting up the AV stuff, the live events we do. It doesn't matter what it is. Right. I'm looking for the intangible excellence. I'm like, are they doing that one role with excellence? If they're, if I can see them with a heart of excellence doing whatever that role is and having an environment of wanting to be connected to a team and wanting to contribute to a team and wanting to make a larger. I know I've got, I know I have a developing leader there and then I'll put more time, energy into them. I do find that some of the leaders, as a rule of thumb, will watch somebody for 90 days and see a great, you know, a great performance for 90 days and then make a judgment call. I've learned that I have to watch them for 12 to 18 months to see if they're consistent, you know, and counting back consistent. Which kind of leads me to a, an appreciation of kind of as we're building out our teams, you know, what are some of the intangibles that, that we should be looking for if, if we're really trying to shift our own mind into? Because I find that a lot of leaders want, want to control everything. And I know, I know you well enough to know and even, even before we hopped on there, there are things that we're good at and there are things we're not good at.

Yeah.

And I know you and I share the vision of obviously, well, let's do the things we're good at and let's let others do the things they're good at. But help me understand maybe how, how you can use mind shift to develop a team.

Yeah, I will. One, there's a massive shift in what you're looking for. I think the organizations that make the best biggest mistakes are looking for talent. And, and one, if you can hire talent away, that talent will be hired away.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, so if you're looking to build a long term team, you know, don't look for people who leave because you're paying them more money because someone else will pay them more money. You know, in fact, one of the best strategies to get the fastest level of income raises is to keep leaving companies. And so if that, and if you want to be a part of that process for someone, that's fine, but just realize that you're just a step in their salary development, you know, strategy.

Yeah.

But I look for things like kindness.

You know, how do people treat people? And I feel like that's probably the most significant thing. In fact, I was just in a medical center in Costa Rica, and they only handle a certain number of clientele. And they told me on the second day, they said.

We look for certain things when we, you know, if we're going to decide we're going to work for someone. They said, and actually this was in El Salvador. And they said the way that you went and started talking to the waiter and just started asking about his life and his family and everything else, we knew right away we wanted you to be a part of this organization.

Wow.

And I thought, oh, they have a very similar way of, of processing people. I, I, I don't care how you treat me. Yeah. I, I kind of know that you may treat me in a way that you don't treat anyone else.

Yeah. Yeah.

I really care about the way you treat the people on my team and in our world who can offer you nothing. That's one of the first things I look for is does this person have a pattern of respecting people and treating them with kindness?

Yeah.

But also I look for people who, it's interesting. If they talk badly about their last boss, I won't hire them.

I have a similar rule.

Yeah. So when I'm interviewing them, I'm not really looking to see, you know, about their skill set or, you know, I assume if you're leaving, you're not happy.

Right. There's just certain things, you know. Right. You know, and just like every dating relationship that ends, ends badly, no matter what anybody says, because one of the two did not want to end it.

Yeah.

They both wanted to end it. It was really bad.

That is the truth. Yeah.

Right. You know, and so when people go, oh, why, why do all your relationships end badly? Because if they end, that's they ended badly. And yeah, just like with jobs. And I go how a person talks about the boss that they didn't enjoy because I know that's how they're going to talk about me. You know, how much responsibility they take for the success or failure of their previous job. And even if, you know, if it didn't go up, but they're, they take ownership and go, you know, I could have done this better. I, you know, I had to learn this skill or I just didn't have this skill. I'll hire that person faster than the person who thinks they had all the skills and all the competencies. But they, the company just couldn't see it.

Yeah.

And because they have a victim mentality. And they'll carry it with you, with them to the company that you run. Yeah.

And then they. And unfortunately poison the team around them long term. From what I've seen. Yeah. You know, this kind of pivots off this a little bit in, in today's world, it's almost like we're searching for significance outside of ourself. And I know in the book, one of the things that really touched me was the perspective of chasing an image versus chasing being becoming a person of substance. I think that's a massive shift, especially in today's world, because we're all trying to prove that we have value by external means.

Yeah.

Rather than pursuing becoming a person of. I would refer to as. When I define substance, I'm thinking depth, I'm thinking wisdom, I'm thinking patience, I'm thinking kindness and humility, but not humility where so much so where you get ran over.

Talk to me about the importance of that shift and why it was so important to communicate that in the book.

Yeah. This is a tricky one in some way, Stephen, because.

I do a lot of psychological assessments on, you know, high level leaders almost across the board. When, when you're dealing with something that could be described as image management, how much energy a person puts on their public Persona. Most of the people I've graphed that are highly successful are in the top like 1% of image management. They. They have a very powerful public Persona that hides. They really are from everyone. So when I talk about connecting to your real self, I have to admit right up front, this won't stop you from being successful.

Yeah.

And. And if I, if I told you that it would keep you from being successful, I would be dishonest. And in fact, having a Persona might actually make you more successful. And I'm just gonna throw that out there like that.

Yeah.

And it just, it, it. But it leaves you empty because one of the great challenges is the world falls in love with the person you created, not the person you are. And so you feel a huge disconnect even from fame. You ever wonder why famous people feel so lonely?

It's because they feel, I would say, I would argue they don't feel, they don't feel authentic. They feel like they have to put up a front in order to, in order to maintain whatever they've built because.

They'Re using so much of their energy creating a Persona, an image, and, and then they don't Know if you see them, whether you, whether you will love them or accept them. And, and so then the danger of letting you see them as they really are is too high.

Yeah.

The risk is too great. And so when I talk about this in the book, I'm not saying this will make you more successful in terms of wealth or power or fame. What I am saying is that if you don't learn how to create a connection between your authentic self and your public image, you're going to experience a level of aloneness in your life that will be suffocating.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you know what? Maybe the world doesn't deserve to know you.

Yeah.

But you, you have to have people in your life.

Yeah.

That deserve to know you. And so you have to make sure there are some people you're not performing for.

Yeah. Well, I know you even told a story in the book about, you know, a 10 figure plus earner that seemingly had everything and then got to the point where he took his own life. Yeah. You know, and I, from personal experience.

Especially early days, the wealthier I became, the more lonely I was because I was always con. Do they want me or do they want the money or the access or the connection? Like, what do they really want? You know, and you know, when I didn't have those.

I guess those shiny things attached to my name, so to speak, it was easier because it's like, you know, he's just Stephen, you know, And I, and I find that pursuing that is, has been a, has been a, a big shift for me. I, I began trying to pursue becoming a person of substance about a decade ago. Right. What I've learned is when we pursue that level of desiring to becoming a person of substance and depth and empathy and compassion and kindness and generosity and humility, and you begin to attract in many of those same people into your life. And I go back and forth with manifestation talk and whatever because I'm a Jesus guy. But also quantum mechanics is kind of plays in all this too. So it's like trying to figure out how all this kind of comes together, you know, And I don't know, it just, it seems to me that the most financially successful people that I know that have a life that I would, that I would admire and we, we share this similar friends that have those types of lives, they pursue almost everything through the heart of service impact and are constantly trying to develop themselves to a higher level. Constantly. It's like the, the wealth, the fame and the things that come with it are kind of like ancillary Items. What do you think it takes to shift that though? Like from a self perspective, how does one become aware that that needs to shift in them?

I think it's a very difficult shift. And I think sometimes, I mean, by the way, the most narcissistic people will have the most service oriented language.

Because.

They genuinely believe everything they're doing is the best thing for humanity.

Yeah.

You know, and. Yeah, so it's a challenge. And so you really can't measure it based on what you're doing for yourself or what you do for others.

And I think a huge part of the way you make that shift in an authentic way is doing things for others that no one knows about.

You know, being generous without making it your campaign.

Yeah. Which is precisely what Jesus told us to do. Yeah.

You know, I think Jesus really had an insight.

Yeah. He's had a corner on the market for thousand years, that's for sure. Yeah.

You know, and so when, when, when you see people being hypergenous publicly, you realize this is still a part of their public image.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and it's how you treat people privately, it's how you're generous privately, it's the sacrifices you make privately, where you don't even have a need if they become known. It's almost like incidental. It wasn't strategy.

Yeah.

And, and also it may be that there's a time and a day where you tell that story because it inspires other people or because it helps people understand who you are, but it has nothing to do with when you did it and why you did.

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And I also know that in the book, you know, you give several examples of a contrast of people using their image one way and their personal life or their, their behind the scenes life being almost the polar opposite of it.

Yeah.

You know, spending time and energy there. Well, I want to pivot just a little bit. One of the things that I love a lot about Mind Shift is not just a book.

You went out of your way to like put together a lot of bonuses for anyone that actually took advantage of the book and actually got a copy of it. And I personally, as a, as a business owner who, who has multiple businesses and are trying to, who's trying to do a good job leading teams. I think it's not just a book for just the leader. I think it's a book for the leader and the team. Personally. Yeah, personally. Why did you want to give away so much stuff with people that, you know, purchased the book and, and took advantage of the book.

It's funny, you know, I wasn't in this whole, like, business funnel space, you know, I mean, even the word funnel was like a new word for me. Yeah, well, a funnel was something you ate ice cream in, you know. Yeah, but. And people say, well, you know, have to. You give things away to finally get to the product you sell. Well, I've always been the opposite. I've always given everything away.

Yeah, We.

We had a. We hired a company to help us figure out, okay, you know, how do we monetize some of this? And they go, your biggest challenge is you've been giving everything away for 40 years.

So you pay, expects it.

So the moment you charge, like, $5, well, wait a minute. What's going on?

Yeah.

And I go, yeah, but this guy's charging, like, 50,000. They go, yeah, but he always charge. And so they're used to that transactional relationship. And so it's been the opposite for me. I've always given everything away.

Yeah.

And it was really a couple of my friends who are in the business space who said to me, well, said several things, but they, you know, everybody has, like, these cliches that actually mean something. They go, hey, if they don't pay, they don't pay attention.

That's very true.

And I went, what? What? And they go, look, I'm just telling you, you're giving everything away. And so it has the same value. Zero.

Yeah.

And so you're communicating to everyone that everything you've created all your life has zero value.

Yeah.

And so they were responding to it with zero value. And they go, but your stuff can change people's lives, so you need to begin to create for them, not for you.

Yeah.

Realization of value.

Yeah.

And it was like, you know, a mind shift for me.

There we go. There's the mind shift.

It was. It was. It was a significant mind shift where my son, who runs our company, is like, we're going to add. We're going to actually attach value to things you create that actually reflect the amount of work and the outcomes that will happen in people's lives. And it was so hard for me. I mean, it was like being a freshwater fish jumping into the salt water, you know, I didn't know if I could survive it. And when we created the art of communication, and all of a sudden, people started buying it left and right, and people had more value, what I charged, like, $5,000 for than what I had given them with the exact same quality for free.

Wow.

And. And then one of my friends John Gordon said, you know, I did this event and I did it for free. And we had so many complaints. And then we did a similar event. We charged a lot of money. We didn't have any complaints.

Wow.

And we started looking at the research. We found that people who get things for free are always dissatisfied.

Yeah.

It's never enough. Give me more, please.

Never enough. And, you know, so some of I had to do the reverse funnel. My whole world was free. And then we created things. And what it did is I'm 65. And so I've been, you know, I've lived the bulk of my life giving everything I create for free. But also it doesn't allow me to have a filter because I want to invest in the people who want to be the best in the world. And I've kind of accepted that I'm allowed to do this at this stage in my life because for 40 years I invested in everyone.

But there's a certain sense of the urgency of time in my life where I go, I'm going to invest in the people where they have almost no room for a margin of error. I'm going to invest in people who want to live at the highest capacity. And those people are only going to take this seriously if they actually have to have a high buy in.

Yeah.

And so I began creating high buy in processes and it brought the best people in the world to me.

You know, and the impact, the impact you can have on a global scale when you shift someone's value system that has billions of dollars has an exponential effect that even a wonderful person that maybe has $20,000.

Yeah.

And. And you help them make the same shift. But the, the collateral positive effect is dramatically different.

Yeah. Compounding of influence. Yeah.

And I realized like one thing that really I had to deal with the stewardship. People of great success will actually listen to me.

That's true. I've been listening to you for years. You've been a virtual mentor long before we ever got to know each other.

And so, you know, when I spend my life, I spent a lot of my time teaching 20 year olds. Mosaic is still, you know, average age is in the twenties. And. But I also know a lot of people can teach them what they need to learn right now, but very few people can teach the best of the best the things that I can teach them.

Yeah.

And, and so it's really about a stewardship of my own resource and my own energy and time. And that's why we've done it like this. And so we do a Lot of things for free because it's actually inherent to my nature. I just love giving things away.

Well, the stuff you're giving away is not like chump stuff. That's why. That's what like threw me for a loop, was like, he doesn't have to give that away.

No, I would give everything away, honestly, you know, and if I could find a way to actually be self sustaining. Because, you know, one of the challenges when you're a pastor, which I've been for decades, is that, you know, you live in this catch 22. People think that you're doing it for the money, but you're not making any money. You know. You know, you have the worst reputation and the worst income, and so you don't, you don't get a benefit.

Oh, yeah, you have a big heart trying to do good in the world. Go figure.

Yeah. You know, and. And on the flip side, you're always dependent on someone else's success. The finance the church.

Yeah.

But for 30 years, my wife and I have been probably the biggest givers of the church for almost all those 30 years. And people never knew that I worked multiple jobs so that we could actually finance the vision of the church. And one of the things that I just decided to do in my life is I actually have the capacity to create wealth. I have the capacity to create, you know, materials and processes and systems that are incredibly invaluable to people. And I can actually create more wealth to do more good. Rather than hoping my friends will give, I'm going to be the friend that gives.

That in and of itself is a mind shift.

Yeah.

I mean, and I don't mean that. And I don't mean that in a low term. I mean that in a very high term. I think a lot of folks. And I don't mean. And this is. I don't. This is no hate. No hate, no shame on anybody. Because I've definitely been this person before. Spend more time consuming than creating.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, so people that pour themselves in the. Into the creator role can actually create a larger shift in the world around them, no matter how big or how small. Right. Before we wrap up the show, I want to maybe talk a little bit about the importance of forgiveness because it's, it's such a powerful chapter in the book. And I think it's again, one of the most underutilized things from my own, My own life, my own experience. It wasn't until I was able to get to a certain level of forgiveness with a certain variety of different things. That I actually began to feel free. Why did you spend so much time breaking down the importance of forgiveness and kind of how. How that plays into everything?

Yeah. That's the chapter. Bitterness and other poisons will kill you. And. And I think a huge part of it is when. When I look back over 40 years of human interaction, if you could see interacting with humans as a social experiment, you know, and I would say 90%, just off the top of my head.

Of the reasons people are held back are internal, negative emotions.

Yeah.

People think it's intelligence or training or skills or opportunity, but what I find is that what holds most people back is having an unhealthy internal world shaped by bitterness.

Yeah.

Unforgiveness, envy, jealousy, you know, and it plays itself out through, like, gossip and slander and being malicious. And, you know, it's why there's so much hate on social media, because that's what's inside of people.

Yeah.

The Internet does not create an evil society.

You know, the Internet's ruining everything. No, it's humans.

We're the cause of our own problems. Thank you very much.

Yeah. You know, we find a way. You know, and. And I wrote that chapter because I felt that if I can, if I help a person become successful in the business world and help a person become more capable of scaling, but I don't help them find a healthy inner world, I don't know if I'm really making a difference in their life.

Yeah.

And. And so I just wanted to take a moment and pull everybody back and go, okay, let's talk about forgiveness.

Because I've been betrayed. I don't know anyone who's ever been successful who hasn't been betrayed.

Yeah. And at a deep level.

Oh. I was at one mastermind. And I mean, I've had one business partner who really betrayed me. I mean, I lost, like, six to $10 million, you know, and. But one guy got up and goes, I'm in four lawsuits. Another guy get up, goes, I'm in 10 lawsuits. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Wow. And.

And they're all, like, former business partners. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't end up in a lawsuit simply because when they sent me all the legal notices, I said, you can have the whole company. And they go, what? And I said, I'm not going to fight you. You can have everything. And I'll just start all over again. And. And. And so that. That's how I stayed out of court.

It was.

I literally gave up everything.

Yeah.

And. But most people don't do that. Most people fight and fight and fight and hold on to the past.

And.

And I, I. I mentor a guy, and he's amazing, but he was in a lawsuit with the DOJ for years. One of the largest settlement, I think, in US history. $4.2 billion.

Holy cow.

And was still mad.

Whoa.

And we still had to have a whole session with the team on forgiveness and bitterness, because even after he won, he was like, yeah, but justice hasn't been done. What they did was wrong, and we need to go after them. And I'm like, you just won $4.2 billion. Paid off every debt for every. He owns, you know, maybe 20 companies or something like that.

Yeah.

And. And. But money cannot heal what only forgiveness can heal.

Mm. And the crazy part about forgiveness is forgiveness is it's on the inside. It's you. It's you forgiving them, but not necessarily. I was always told that you can, for you can. If you pers. If you seek to forgive, you can find forgiveness. But doesn't mean you have to forget. Doesn't mean you didn't learn a lesson. Doesn't mean you don't gain some wisdom from the experience of what not to do again or how not to expose yourself. Etc.

Here are the things I think are important. Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

Okay.

You're supposed to forgive immediately and trust slowly. Like when someone's betrayed you or someone has definitely wronged you, and you. You can forgive them immediately, but it doesn't mean you have to trust them. A lot of people have a hard time forgiving because they think the moment I forgive, I have to trust them.

Yeah.

Not only do you not have to trust them, you probably shouldn't if it was a deep betrayal. Second thing is, forgiveness doesn't mean an invitation back into intimacy.

Yes.

And so a lot of times people won't forgive because they think it's. It with forgiveness is an invitation to the previous relationship. It's not.

Yeah.

You can forgive and say, I forgive you. I don't trust you. That's gonna have to be earned. Might take years.

Yeah.

I. I forgive you, but I don't invite you. All right. That. That previous level of friendship or relationship is no longer available to you.

Yeah.

It's not because I don't forgive you is because I do forgive you, but I'm moving on.

Yeah.

Then I think the third thing about forgiveness that we should all acknowledge is that forgiveness sucks.

Yeah. That's true.

Because.

It'S easy to forgive someone that's genuinely Sorry.

Yeah.

It's really hard to forgive someone who isn't sorry. And it's really, really hard to forgive someone who's so arrogant and so narcissistic they don't even think they need forgiveness. Then you're like, why should I forgive them? They don't even know they're not worthy of my forgiveness. And you have to go. It's not that they're worthy of it. It's not that they deserve it. It's not that they've earned it. You just have to be free.

Yeah.

Because as long as you're bitter, you're in their story.

Yeah.

The only way to get back into your own story is through forgiveness.

Brother, I love you and I love this conversation I have. I could talk to you for days and weeks and years, and fortunately, I get to hang out with you every now and again. But you mentioned mentorship. I'll wrap up the show with this because I think it's important. I know you got a lot of folks that are after you to work with you, and I know you have limited bandwidth because I know about the businesses that you're part of and the. And the travel schedule. The last events, you were coming literally across the world just to spend an hour with some folks. And I've always loved your heart for commitment to excellence and servitude or service of others. Talk to me a little about the arena, because I feel like that's going to be the best fit for a lot of folks that really would like to gain your wisdom and insight and, you know, have some access to you, but, you know, being direct proportion with their commitment to personal and professional growth. So tell me, why did you create the arena?

Oh, well, you know, I created the arena because I still care about people who were in the early stages of their development.

Yeah, me too.

You know, and I felt like there was a tier kind of missing. Mosaic is our. Is like the free tier. Everything, you know, that I can give to you that will help you in the early stages of your development and health and wholeness is for free. You just go online, go to Mosaic app. It's all free. Oh, by the way, when you talk about loving to give things away, this morning we just created something for you. It's. It's. Go to irwinmacmanus.com free.

Make it easier for me, will you?

Yeah. And we put our communicators toolkit there for people who really want to develop their communication skills. And so Mosaic was free. And then I have this one on one coaching that's you know, six figures. And it's, it's very hard. You know, obviously you don't have, you.

Have openings like once every seven years. So.

Yeah, so there's not many, there's just a handful. And, and, and I do it and it's hard for me because I care deeply about people. So when I take someone on that level, I carry the stress and you know, the anxiety of their life, their success. And so it takes a lot out of you. And then we have a mastermind right now just for men. And I, I, it's not that I'm not interested in developing world class women leaders. I just didn't have a woman at this time that could partner with me and I didn't feel like I should do it by myself.

Yeah.

And that's always just been kind of like my code, you know, in life. And, and so we have a men's Mastermind that's around $40,000. And so that still is fairly exclusive and only some people can afford that. So we created the arena because I thought, how do you create a mastermind that's more financially accessible and you don't have to travel all over the world. Some people just can't afford to get on a plane, get a hotel, be a part of a two day mastermind. So we created the arena and we made our focus communication, leadership, character. And then it's a triangle and the big space in the middle is big ideas. Because I want to have a place where we could just talk about every big idea in the world. Yeah. And so right now, so all the content I create, like the art of communication, the seven frequencies of communication, all the material is in there for free. Everything we do in our live arena conference, all the talks are in there for free. So everything I will ever create is going to be in the arena for free. Because I hate to sell. So that way the membership just solves the problem.

Just free value for the rest of your life. Enjoy.

You know, and, and then what I've doing, even though it's not a part of the arena because I just really enjoy investing in people, is Every Monday at 10am I go live and I teach for an hour. And in that hour I do about 30 minutes. And we have 30 minutes of Q and A with people all over the world.

Yeah.

Our newest member of the arena joined from Prague, Czech Republic. Wow. I mean, people coming from all over the world. It's a great community. I'll talk about things like overthinking, how to overcome that. Honestly, in one of the sessions I talked about the Palestinian Israeli conflict and how to process the media and how to determine what is actually true, what's false and how to think. And so I'll take an issue like that and go, I'm going to use this particular issue to teach you how to think at a higher level. And so we try to make nothing off limits in terms of the conversations we have there.

I would invite people to join. I think if you go to irwinmacmanus.com the arena, you can actually learn more about it. Again, anything that connects to sales that's just really, I'll have make sure my.

Team throws the links and all the, all the show notes and all that good stuff because I, again.

My audience knows that I, if I only will even verbalize a belief in someone's product, good service or whatever if I'm actually consuming it, using it or, or have consumed it over time. And I've been following your career now for ever since Ed did his event here. And you know, we, we've enjoyed, I've enjoyed getting to learn more about Mosaic, getting enjoyed learning more about you and kind of because it's a lot of times it's hard for people to fully understand the value they're getting from thought leaders nowadays because they have been, they're so, they are in many cases so accustomed to funnels and all that good stuff. I haven't seen anything of yours yet that I wouldn't pay money for.

Thank you.

And as someone who again, who's, who's looking to be a person of substance and depth, I want to invite everybody watching the show, listening to the show now. Well, again, we'll put in the show notes to access mind shift for sure, 100%. And if you're looking for a great solution to develop yourself with routines like with an infrastructure, then definitely check out there. We'll do that for you for sure. But Irwin, dude, I love you, man. I can't thank you enough for coming on, dude. And I can't wait to do this again.

Hey, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed the conversation.

All right, brother, take care. Video. And if you did, make sure you check out this next video right here.

I would recommend that people get rid of the word healthy when it comes to relationships. There's no such thing as a healthy relationship. It is what works and what doesn't work, what will work, what can work and what can never work.