The SECRETS To Being a GREAT FATHER & HUSBAND | Troy Mangum

But the big secret for any early stage father is you pass on who you are more than what you know.

I want to jump straight into the conversation, if you don't mind, because I know you've got a passion for fatherhood in general. Right. So I want to talk, you know, because as you know, I just became a grandfather. Yes, yes, I know that, the hair slicked back and all that kind of stuff. But I'm a grandfather for the second time. Brand, brand new baby girl.

Right.

Hayden or Haley Jade. And I want to better understand and set up my. Well, the father that I'm now raising to be a father for success.

Yeah.

Where do we most go wrong as fatherhood, as fathers, as we're kind of come out the gate.

Yeah. So I think that where we must go wrong is, is we kind of get. We look for tips and tricks to try to improve our fatherhood, like, you know, how to deal with the stinky diaper, how to deal with.

Early stage fatherhood and maybe the impact on the marriage or whatever. And we look for hacks and tricks. But the big secret for any early stage father is you pass on who you are more than what you know. Number one thing.

Say that again. Say that again.

You pass on who you are more than what you know. While young fathers are looking for tips and tricks all the while, there may be things that are unresolved in their soul that ultimately they will be passing on if they don't deal with it, overcome it and be victorious over it. And hacks don't get it done. And so it's a little bit counterintuitive. I use the airplane analogy. Put the mask on yourself first and then help the other. So I think there's a really, it's just so important for young fathers to understand you. You're going to pass on who you are, who you are. If you know that you can be better, if you know there's areas that you need to overcome, then that is what you need to work on because you will pass that on.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's the big one for young fathers.

Yeah. I think it was Dan. Was. It might have been Dan. No, it's true. It Kathy that said, let me get the miss so I can get this right.

It's better to build men than to mend them.

Yes.

You know, and as growing up, as growing up like I did, and again, I want to be very, very cautious with how I say these words. My father was struggling with a lot of life dysfunction in his own life early on. Therefore, he instructed A lot of dysfunction. You talked about it just a second ago, but he's now an amazing grandfather, and he's a great dad. Okay. At this stage in the game. So I want to. I want people to understand if.

If you're.

If, you know, you're struggling as a father, you know, you could be doing more and better. Give yourself some grace. You got time, right? The second. The second thing, though, that I would say to. That is, you know, one of the conversations I had with him is like, he's like, well, I was like, who taught you to be a dad?

Right.

Who taught you to. To, you know, you know what to. What to do when you're sitting in the chair for the first time and you're talking about the birds and the bees or you're getting ready to talk about the first heartbreak or the. Or the first time, you know, hair shows up on your body or, you know, all these different things. And of course, it varies with, you know, you got. You got daughters and sons, right? So you got. You got the best of both worlds. Right? So, I mean, talk to us a little bit about the importance of understanding where fatherhood is shaped so we can better understand how to position it to make sure we're shaping great men.

Yeah. So I think that one of the things is that men in general. Here's. Here's my take on men. Men in general like to do it themselves. They fall in love with Google and YouTube because, hey, I don't have to be embarrassed. Ask the questions I need to get answered for. Nobody needs to know. But the nasty little secret about all that is there's no relational aspect, and it's not customized for you. You know, some general. You might gain some general understanding of something, but the power is your story and what you need to learn. And so the way that men grow usually is in mentoring relationships. And these are going to be relationships where other men have walked ahead of you. They're committed to you in a relationship. They're like, hey, we want to pass on the things that we've come to know and have put into practice. And so really what I would encourage any man who knows that they have a deficit, start looking for those that can help walk in relationship with you to help you with that fatherhood journey. And there's many men's ministries and others that kind of create these kind of community environments for men so they can have sort of get these hard questions answered, and they don't have to be just looking for general knowledge on YouTube or Google.

Yeah, like I said, I love the first comment you made about, you know, you're going to pour into people more of who you are than what you know. I mean, I don't know if you ever heard this growing up. I know I did. Was like, do what I say, not as I do. Yeah, of course, like, you know, and stuff like that. And I. And I just. It's not until you get older and you become a, you know, in theory, become a mature adult. Right. Because we're always maturing. But it's not until you get older that you realize that some of these statements almost become like life lies. Because you feel like because it was said to you, you could turn right around and say it to someone else, maybe your own kids. Right. And, you know, the. My audience doesn't. I'm going to share this for the first time. They don't know this because they've heard me talk about my kids before. And I got great kids. I got two Bo and a daughter, but none of them are biologically mine. Right. I biologically can't have children. And that's been that way for some time. And so by the time I was actually ready to, quote, unquote, have children and get into that. And get into that realm, for me, it was more like.

A gift. And I was able to always position myself and look at it as the gift that it. Like it really is. As has looking at your fatherhood, whether you've done it right or wrong or perfect has. It always have. You've always been able to look at it through the lens of a gift. Or how could looking at it through that lens kind of be like a really pivotal thing for a man?

Yeah. So.

Gifts come in different shapes and sizes. And I would say that I looked at it as a. I was afraid to be a dad. I was afraid what I would pass on as a dad. But the gift that children were to me as. As a man was. I remember the day my second son was born, and I remember thinking, you know, I have so much to learn about what it is to be a man and to pass on masculine truths to. To my second son. It was such a kind of a sobering call of like, I need to get serious about this. Like, I can't just drift through life and just kind of, you know, halfway do it, because that's what I'm going to pass on. I really got to get serious about my own personal growth. Maturity, really, I think, is a lot of it was maturity. And the thing that I love about what you do is you're really helping shore up these, these areas of people's lives that just have gaps. And, you know, nobody's, you know, we don't choose the family we're born in. Sometimes we grow up and we're going to have gaps. But it's our responsibility what we do with those gaps. And it's absolutely our responsibility if we choose, and I would say choose to pass on those gaps because we never took it.

No, it's. That's so good. I think it's one of the reasons I love the book and the name of the book. Right. Fatherhood Face Plants. Because I think you're, you almost give us all like enough, enough love and grace to actually admit the fact that we're going to have face plants as fathers. I have had several through my best efforts of even trying to do it the right way the first time, you know. So let's talk about some of the fatherhood face plants that you have so we can maybe help the audience understand some of your own. What are, what are ones that became like pillar cornerstone moments for yourself that you would share with the audience.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that one of the things that I have really learned, and this is a little bit maybe not what you would expect as this answer, but being a good husband. Right. Learning about loving my wife, being committed to my wife, being gracious to my wife to overcome any sort of hang ups that I had and how I interacted with all that communication and gracious interaction and being loving and being patient and all of that translates into healthy relationships. And so for my kids, it was a little bit like my kids think, oh, wow, you're great dad. Right. And they're young, especially when they're young, they think you're great. They're all excited to see you're Superman.

You actually, you actually have a cloak and a cape under. Yeah.

But the wife relationship can sometimes be the one that's more truest to like who you are and your warts and your flaws and et cetera. And so the story of kind of the what's I kind of play out in the book is the cornerstone lesson that I was able to understand and learn was I can't just, just be a good dad and not be a good husband.

Yeah.

It actually starts with being a good husband. I'll tell you this quick story because it's such a powerful story.

Yeah.

My wife and I went through difficult season where we ended up splitting up, but we ended up getting back together. But during that difficult season, there was an older man and an Older couple and I went to a church meeting, and he came with this 1968 or 1972 plaque that said, the best thing a man can do for his children is love his wife. And it was this old school, looked like a Willy Wonka ticket. It was the weirdest. Looking good and black. And he came to this men's meeting. And I basically, in this meeting, kind of revealed, hey, we're hitting a really rough spot. And he stood up and said, my wife, we've had this thing for 30 years. And my wife said, I think that somebody needs this today. And when you share that you and your wife were hitting a rough spot, I want to hand this to you now. This was a treasure in their marriage.

Wow.

30 years, and they're handing it to a man who looked like he was going to get divorced. He wasn't looking hopeful. It wasn't looking good. And it was such the grace of God. And it really nailed home that lesson. Look, learn how to be a good husband, and you will learn. You will teach your children healthy relational skills and what a healthy, loving, gracious, patient relationship looks like if you have difficulties or not.

Yeah, no, I think that's really good. But I also think there's a. There's a. There's a pillar point of that that comes from that. And for me, even, you know, being. Being a husband, being a father, all that kind of stuff. For me, the most difficult thing to show is a healthy state of masculinity, because either you're overly masculine and you're constricting and dominant, or you're underlying masculine and you're, you know, bar none, have feminine traits and stuff like that. As a father and a husband, you know, it's. That's. It just seems like it's so weird to try to find this balance. What. I mean, so when you think about masculinity, what is a healthy masculinity?

Oh, gosh. I mean, you. I know, have faith listeners, and I certainly do with my podcast. And I'm telling you, Jesus is the perfect balance.

Okay.

I look at his life balance. You've got the intensity and the confrontational, which I would say is very masculine. Right. Flipping tables, articulating arguments with the best of the lawyers of the day. He's trying to. Not getting caught in corners and really being what I would consider aggressive.

Yeah.

Then you. These traits of him, very tender.

The death of Lazarus and how he handled, you know, the women and their grieving, and they were so tender, even to the point where he's moved by Emotion. And that was all masculine in the sense that he was a man. Right. And he had this full range of emotions and tenderness and intensity. And I think that, you know, he gets shortchanged. I would say that the way that he gets shortchanged in general is that he's overly feminine and overly soft. But if you really study what he did and how he interacted with people, had a very aggressive, direct.

Not abrasive, but very. Make a lot of people uncomfortable, you.

Know, and he had his moments, that's for sure.

You need. You need both. And so that would be one. One way that I would kind of frame masculinity. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know about you, but for me, the younger the boys were, typically the more empathy and tenderness I showed.

Yeah.

As they began to age, I began to say, okay, they're coming out of this really young boyhood where they need nurturing, they need connection, they need affirmation, they need empowerment, they need inspiration. And as they began to kind of grow up, it became, okay, well, now we need correction. Now we need to make sure that the behaviors that you're lining up with are consistent with the values that you have as an individual and as a person of faith. Values that I share as well, ultimately leading them to make their own decision as they grew up. And I've been very fortunate that they also found faith the same way I did. Well, not the same way, but the same faith I did. And the older years, now that, you know, one's. I think one is going to be 21 very soon, the other is going to be 20 very soon. Essentially, they're technically men, at least by the law standards. And now they get a lot more face to face masculinity style talks. It's a lot more man to man kind of communication. Not that I'm being domineering or I'm being hurtful, but more along the lines of I'm being more like a mentor. I kind of move from that role of the compassionate person up to more of the role of the mentor in their lives, knowing that they've got to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. Have you found that that's been a good. Something like that's been a good framework to basically create a solid fatherhood role?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that laid it out beautifully. And the other piece I will add is that one of the powerful things that fathers can do and mothers maybe can do them, but I've seen mothers maybe be a little bit tougher on this one as more of a challenge for them is put your children in very challenging situations and uncomfortable situations for their growth and so that they can own victory, overcoming owning something that they are proud of that they did and accomplished. Sometimes when they are struggling and really seeking a rescue. Right. That's where sometimes I can pull on those mom strings pretty hard and say, what can we do to kind of help them out? I'm not saying all moms are like this or all dads are like this, but I'm just kind of painting a general picture is that it's like you want to rescue them or you want to help them, but the fact is, is they have to, just like you did. And I did have to struggle through things to be able to own the victories on the other side, knowing that, you know what, my dad was there to support me, to mentor me, to encourage me, but he never removed the flame. And he just can do it. You can get through this. And when they do, they own it. They grow as what they're really called to be as a man. Or even daughters can kind of go through this situation. But I think it's a unique role as a dad to kind of put that pressure in a loving way, but in a supportive way. Like, you can do this, but I'm not going to remove the situation just so it's all of a sudden easy, like. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah.

Well, it seems like to me that, you know, when it comes to the children as a whole, like, I treat my daughter a little bit differently than I treat my boys, but it's the same expectation. Right. Same principles apply. I might communicate to her a little bit differently than I would communicate to the boys. I want to pivot a little bit to the fathers that maybe who are like, my dad was growing up right. Who didn't get it right the first time. I mean, when I say they didn't get it right, I mean that they weren't. They weren't around or they had some kind of vice or something they were dealing with for a number of years before they could. Could kind of get themselves together and now want to be around and now want to, you know, play a role and. Or become part of maybe their children's lives, even though they've been distant and kind of estranged from them. What advice are we going to give to them today?

Two things. I'll give them advice. Be brave, and it's never too late. And here's why. I had a father like that. And I was. I remember the day. It was. I was 27 years old. He had, I had been married, I was newly married and he was feeling those feelings of kind of regret and distance and I kind of messed up and he wanted to make it right. And I remember we were in this situation where we were at a men's meeting and they kind of said, hey dads, why don't you go hug your sons? You know, and I'm a 27 year old man, right. I'm married, I live across the country, I got my own things. And I remember that boy, hard in me, even at 27, wanted so badly to get a massive hug from my dad because I was tired and I was weary of trying to figure everything out on my own because he had been mostly absent. And when it came time to hug me, he couldn't do it. He was filled with regret.

And hesitation because of his own mistakes. He really could not just get out of himself. Be brave, embrace me, say I love you. And that's absolutely what I needed at the time. Now, that might not sound like a great story, but it is a great story because what I'm telling you is for those fathers out there, your son and your daughter, they always need you, always. But you have to be brave enough and to say, you know what, I've made mistakes, but I'm going to step into this moment and be your dad and love you the best I can right now. And I guarantee you that it may not happen the first time, but it will eventually happen with your children. Say thank you so much. I needed that so bad. And that's so much of this book is about. It's a getting back up story. The tagline is how to get back up and be the kid your. Your be the dad your kids need. And it's because so much we're going to make mistakes. It's not about that. It's about getting up, learning how to fight, engaging, and then actually becoming an engaged parent. Irrespective of how bad it was or how bad it's. That's the hope that I lay out in this book is that's possible. And I'm telling you, your children are waiting for it.

Yeah, well, let me talk a little about expectations because I know for at least for me, what held my back, my father back for a number of years was just what you just mentioned, guilt and shame.

Sure.

Like just completely. I messed it up too bad, I'm too far gone. I can never make it up. He had a moment where he discovered his faith. Along the process, my brother and I were there with him, which was kind of a magical moment for our family specifically. But more importantly, after that, we all, as children, we didn't really know what to think. Like, we weren't really sure. Is dad serious? Is he not serious? And you know, so he would, he would make great strides and he would have like a little like stumble. Right. And he would make great strides and he would stumble. And I think what finally gave us peace to like we're publicly talk about how great of a daddy is now. Right. When, when in our childhood we wouldn't have said that. Right. Is this element of consistency. And the reason I wanted to bring that up is because I know in both of our stories, fatherhood played a role in our lives. Meaning we didn't have great fathers growing up. We had fathers that wanted to reconnect and we wanted to be great. We wanted to be great fathers. We shared all of those in common. More importantly, there's also this piece of wanting to understand how to actually overcome guilt and shame in the first place. So if, if, if we were actually talking to our dads right now, Right. And we're talking to them a decade ago and we're trying to shake them out of that so they can actually live a life of purpose and meaning and fulfillment. What are we going to tell them?

Wow, that's a big question.

You, you mentioned that your dad came to faith.

My dad came to faith. But, but he struggled with the belief of in forgiveness. And I think the thing that is the most powerful truth to set men free from being disengaged, passive, guilt ridden fathers to being engaged, active, free fathers is forgiveness.

Yeah.

And being able to truly understand that forgiveness looks like an action.

Forgiveness. If you are truly forgiven, if God, if you've received forgiveness from God, then your actions should not look like a guilt ridden, you know, beat dog. Look like someone that is, that is confident, that actually has faith that they are free and they can be different and are different and. Yeah. And so what I would have told him and it was very interesting because I kind of transitioned from needing something from him for many years to saying, you know what? I set you free. Like God has been like a father to me and mentors in my life and I just love you and I want to understand you and I'm not looking for anything from you anymore. I just want to be close to you.

Yeah.

Change the dynamic with he and I and I would have told him at that time is like, I like you're forgiven.

Yeah.

Hold anything against you. I just asked for involvement.

Yeah.

And I'm telling You a dad. Guilt's a real thing. And, and, but I'm. But I'm an absolute living testimony. You can live free from it.

Yeah.

Even how. And if you read my book, you know how bad it got.

Yeah.

But I'm completely free from that. I don't even live from that place anymore anymore.

We know. I'm glad you mentioned the book again. You know, there's so many profound things in the book. Understandings, appliable principles. When you're looking at it, I'm a big. All right, so you and I are. Obviously, we're both authors, so we both write books that we hope will impact the world. I don't know about you, but I've picked up a couple of manuscripts before and I'm starting to typing. I'm like this. This just says. This just feels off.

Right.

And then a six months might go by and I might do it again. Okay, well, that's not great. This feels off. And then there's these other things that while they're fine tuned along the way, they become like, almost like passion projects. And I believe that certain books call you to write them. What called you to write this book?

Because it reads like a book that you were called to write, not a book that you wrote just as an author.

That's a very accurate description.

So many years ago.

When I was a young dad, I had a lot of mentors and people in my life that started to say things about me becoming a dad and me learning about being a dad as being a mission or a calling.

And.

And I always was kind of like, okay, is that a calling or like, I want to be something else? Like I'm already.

I want to do something else.

And so. And it was kind of like that, but it kept over and over again. And then I would go to scripture and God started teaching me all these things about all these. The ways generations play off of each other and feed off each other, good or bad. And just kept getting insight and insight and insight into it. And this phrase came up that basically said, where I came to understand that I believe that through me, that fatherless sons will become good fathers for generations to come. And what I mean by that is people don't have a clue, happen to be dads that maybe are starting from ground zero, that they can become not only the best fathers for their generation, but they can start to raise, you know, generations of good fathers with kids and in all the cycle of craziness. And I know you resonate with this so well, the cycle of dysfunction, the Cycle of sort of patterns of failure, all of that can stop in one generation. But somebody that says, enough's enough. Where do I need to go to do the hard work and do the hard work, and then you can change your entire lineage for. For.

Yeah, And I think that's important because I think that. I think that's what you get. This is definitely a book that I think every father should read, regardless of what stage of fatherhood you're in. Because I find that the closer you are to your fatherhood style, the more blinded you are to your fatherhood style.

Yeah, that's right.

You're. You're so used to doing things a specific way, and you convinced yourself that you're doing everything the right way. And I think sometimes having stories that. That illustrate more painful things that can come out of just kind of not paying attention or not having dads, you know, we take it all the way back to the Bible, right? So we've, you know, there's. There's a. In the. In the world that we live in, two of the largest religions that we have on the planet are Christianity and Islam. Okay. What most people don't fully understand is both of those religions can be traced all the way back to Abraham. Ishmael becomes the. Essentially later becomes the area of Islam, where Isaac later becomes Judaism and into Christianity. And it just goes to show that without a father's love, without a father's commitment, that things can get very strange, very wrong in a very quick fashion. You look at the world population right now, the vast majority of fatherhood issues as it relates to poverty is directly coming from many of the households being more about conquest rather than actually having. Actually having a family. And when you do have a family, stepping up as a father. Because I feel like in some cases, we are sold a bad bill of goods. When we're sold, hey, look, just go out and do it your way, and whatever happens, happens. And then you. Then you actually have a child that's born, and then all of a sudden you have to face. And I think this happens a lot with men, especially in this circumstance. A lot of fear, a lot of, oh, my God, my life is over. What have I done? Okay, I'll just ignore it, right? And then. And then we end up with that fatherless generation all over again.

When it comes down to it, let's talk. Let's talk to the young man who just found out he's a father, but he didn't really think he was ready to be a father. What are we going to tell him, you're called.

That's the miracle of life. Like the fact that a child can be born. A lot of times we messed up, or I'm not ready, or that. You know what? I believe in a God that's sovereign over the universe. And he picked you to be a dad. That means you were called. That means he believes it's possible. That means whatever he has planned, if you will go with his plan, it's going to be amazing. But it will require everything from you from a standpoint of growth.

Nobody, I'm telling you, we've been around. You know, if you've been around the party scene and all that stuff, the people that get stuck in a rut, they're still drinking, still doing the same drugs, still chasing the same women, and they're much, much older than they used to be when they were in their teen years. You're kind of like, oh, that's sad. Well, you know what? That's just a man that didn't want to change, didn't want to grow, that didn't want to expand his world into something more impactful and meaningful and purposeful as maybe out of fear. And when you become a dad, that's that crossroads that says game on.

Yeah.

Let me ask.

Let me ask you this, because a lot of, you know, there's an old saying, and granted, I've heard it like 85 different places, so I can't really quote where it came from, but hurt people. Hurt people. Meaning you've got people who are wounded themselves, spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally, tend to do the same thing to other people. And some of my experiences has been that people want to change, but don't necessarily have the courage to change because they think they can't change. One and two is because they're still licking their wounds from being a child themselves.

Yep.

Are you. Are you seeing a lot in that with your work as well?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that's where I kind of get into the responsibility model, where I'm saying, guys, that's on you. Right. Like, let's get some help, take some money.

The choices. Recognize it. Right. So, I mean, from when I make sure that I make sure the dads. That. Because I. I think their dads are going to be watching this, that we're basically where our fathers were. Right. And they're. And they need to make a decision now.

Yeah.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, while all the adversity that you faced as a child was true. Right. And you had some wounds and some other stuff like that you have the choice about whether or not you want to stay there. Is that right?

I absolutely had a choice. And the thing that I want to emphasize is it's not a trivial choice. It is a major choice. Like, this is how I've dealt with all this is the way I've dealt with life. Putting that on the table and saying, I'm willing to deal with life differently. I'm willing to think differently, view myself differently, view my circumstances differently. Like, I'm willing to be transformed. And that's really the courage that I'm calling men to, is that when you get to that, when you get a child, it's such an amazing opportunity to say, you know what? I don't know what to do, but I know that I need to do something. Where can I get started? Right. They can start with you. They can start with podcasts. They can start with books. Eventually, I'm going to encourage them. Start finding people that you start that are modeling something that you admire, that you think is healthy and that you don't have, and be the courageous one that says, hey, would you get a beer or get a coffee or do something? You know, a little bit of time. I just have a few questions and try to forge relationships.

And the crazy part is, like, you know, you and. You and I got to know each other over a couple of relationships. Like, just. Just, you know, like just in and became fast friends and fat and now brothers, I would say, but, you know, as we're looking. Looking into the future and we're talking to an audience, right, We've. They already know they need to go get fatherhood face plants. That. That's a. That's a done deal, especially if you're going to be a father. Right. I'm going to get it for Connor. In fact, my copy is going to Connor, who's, you know, is the. The father of my new grandbaby.

And I want to make sure that he is doing the best he can as a father. I know that's what he wants, but I also know that part of being a good dad is choosing to respond rather than reacting. Right. So what are some of the traits of, from your perspective? Right. What are some of the traits of a quality father or, you know, the attributes of a quality father? What types of. What kind of character traits do they have?

Yeah, so I would say one of the traits is that they listen more than they speak.

In the sense that the best soldiers are situationally aware and engage when it's time to engage. A lot of times that people are like the lecture dads. They're not even aware of the circumstance. They just have a lecture for it. So they're not listening, but they're speaking and they're not being heard. So the best way to be heard and add value is to listen. Listen to your children, listen to your wife, listen to what's going on, and then respond in a thoughtful way. So that would be one characteristic. I would say another characteristic is be.

Tenaciously vigilant in your own personal growth.

In the sense that if you know that you have acting, and I've kind of felt like I've banged this drum on this, but it's so important. If you know you have areas to shore up in your life, private areas, public areas, whatever, then do what it takes to become better in those areas. If it's counseling, go to counseling. If it's relationships, go to relationships. If it's podcasts, if it's books, if it's this, if it's that, because I'm telling you, you will pass on who you are, and you want to be the best version. You want to learn how to overcome things that maybe you don't know how to overcome now, but then you will learn, and then that becomes an incredible resource to your children that says, oh, thank you for helping guide me to overcome certain things or to, you know, deal with anxiety or insecurity or fears or whatever. And so that would be another trait that I say is just so key. And then I'd say the last thing is, have a vision.

You know, all your children were given to you by God. They're uniquely made. They have a unique bent about how God has created them. And ask for that kind of. Ask God for that kind of vision for your children. Like, God, how do you see them? What are they like? And then be able to be that voice in their life that is always speaking, that vision over their life. You know, you are uniquely made this way. You were uniquely gifted this way. It doesn't mean that you're going to do this job or do this thing. Vision is broader. It's like the impact that you're going to have on the world and on other people. And being able to have a vision like that for your children and then just continually speak over it. I can guarantee you they will not always live up to it, but if you're always speaking it, they will come to believe. That's actually the truest thing about.

Love it, dude. I love it, man. I always did love hanging out with you. And have such a great conversation. Where can the audience find out more about you, Holmes?

Yeah, so the best way to find out more about me is@troymangum.com It's M A N G U M. And they can find my podcast there. I run a podcast called the Kindling Fire. They can find about some young men initiatives I'm running there, and they can find more information about the book.

Dude, I love it, man. Man, again, I love it, man. Thank you so much for hanging out.

With me today, Stephen. It's been so great, man. I miss you. I'm glad we got to hang out again.

I know we've got to do this in person next time.

Totally.

All right, dude, take it easy. See ya. If you love that interview, go ahead and check out this next one right here.

No matter how absurd a thought is, if I think it enough, I will believe it. And we now know that those thoughts.

Turn into actions, and so these absurdities in our head become reality.