The SIMPLE STEPS To Find Your PUROSE TODAY! | Cathy Heller

I think we all don't realize we're already there. We keep thinking that success is something way over there. We gotta find as opposed to like what's already within me that I could share.

There's several concepts that I'm hoping to break out, if you're okay with it, and to jump in. And one of the first one is the definition of success and how people utilize that. So you had a very interesting perspective on success, and I loved it so much that I thought the audience would have to hear it. So what, what is your definition of success and how does that look?

Well, you're such a master of that.

I feel that we've all been assigned. We all have a divine assignment. Agreed. And if we didn't, we wouldn't be here. I feel that God calls on us. He doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. And I've just seen that success is. Is that feeling of being in alignment with your higher, being with your soul and contributing your gifts. And it just feels so good to be available in the way that you came here to be available. I think that that's what's so amazing about humans. I don't know if koala bears and pandas and butterflies feel that they're most in sync when they are contributing and making an impact. Yeah, I don't. I don't know that that's the case. But I know that the way we're wired, we feel the most seen when we feel that we've made an impact for other people, which is just so cool that we are wired that way.

Yeah. You know, I've always loved that, the concept of service and you know, from my life, obviously growing up, not. Not a tremendous amount of upside on my growth as a young man, homeless and some other things that we went through. But one of the things that always shook out was I always found myself gravitating towards feeling better when I was serving other people just in general. And I've always loved that asset and that part of it. Now, you mentioned a lot about the God, the higher calling, the sense of self and all that being tied together. We both share an appreciation for God specifically. But one of the things that I loved about some of your earlier work, the work that you've mentioned it was that that wasn't something that just came natural. That's something you went on a search for and found. And I find that most people don't start searching for it simply because they don't know any better. Maybe by. If you don't Mind, share a little bit about your journey, about how you kind of found your faith and kind of found out all of that, if you don't mind, and maybe hopefully inspire somebody else to do the same.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's true. I think that we all kind of know there's something more and that's why nothing seems to satisfy us. No Netflix binge will do it. No new sweater or vacation seems to do it. The soul keeps craving more. I think what it wants is to be connected to source, to be connected to the soul of all souls. And it really doesn't matter what you call it. I think people sometimes feel stuck because they don't call it the same thing someone else calls it. But really we're all actually talking about the same thing.

It's interesting. I recently went on a week long retreat with Dr. Joe Dispenza and he said he's so awesome and he's a person who is really a fan of quantum physics and neuroscience. And he still uses the word God, but he'll say, call it whatever you want, universe, source, energy. And one thing he says is it's interesting how on the search for this mystical, on the search for the divinity, whatever that is, however you call it, the last place we choose to look is inside of ourself. And that's why it's so hard to find it, because it's the last place we ever think to look. But the door to the mystical is inside of each one of us. If God was the sun, we were each array of that sun. We get to be a conductor of that energy. I was getting acupuncture the other day and I saw these metal needles in my arm. And I said to the woman who's been, she's been a fan of Chinese medicine for years and she said, yeah, you know why it works? Because metal is a conductor of energy. And so when you plug back in and you let that energy actually flow, you stay in that receptive mode, then this much bigger power, it's like an iron being plugged into the electrical socket or not. Right? So I, like all of us, kind of knew that there was something more, but I wasn't instructed to hear about it or believe in it. And I was surrounded by people who had a lot of doubt in things like consciousness, God, the universe, things like that. And it sort of was. The way that it was approached to me was that only.

Gullible people or silly people would believe in something like that. And if you're smart, you would understand that there's like logic and reason and science and all that. Except the darn thing is, the longer you spend looking at science, you study an atom, and then you realize that an atom is 99.999% energy and only 0.00001% particles. So you go, wait, so saying is real is actually mostly made of energy. So then if it's made of energy, what the heck is going on? And how come we're paying so much attention to the physical and not giving as much mind to the spiritual, to the energetic, which is clearly what's creating everything. Like, I can feel right now coming out of you is love, generosity. That's why you're a magnet for so much good. So that's what I saw around me was like, why would you want to study that stuff? And my parents were really unhappy and got divorced and were really, in their own way, struggling with depression and addiction and all this stuff. And then my. My mom kind of went from bad to worse and couldn't get out of bed and struggled with suicide attempts. And it was just one of those really dark, unpleasant, challenging times. And then I went on this search for meaning and I studied. I was a religion major in college. And then I went to Jerusalem on a whim, and it was supposed to be a two week backpacking trip, and I stayed for three years.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And like a kibbutz or something or.

What I, like, learned in Jerusalem. I learned mysticism. I broke my teeth learning Aramaic and Hebrew and.

All right, I'm jealous.

Yeah, it was amazing. And I studied Kabbalah and. But like from masters of mysticism. And I got to befriend so many Christians in Jerusalem and so many Jews and so many people, Muslims too, and people who always all really realized that they all rivers led to the same ocean. So that was just an incredible thing to drop into that vortex. And what I left Israel with was something my rabbi David Aaron told me, which is, we are each a masterpiece, a piece of the master. And our job is to know that and then get that. Our superpower is to give our gifts. Like, give it away, share it. Right? So I came out to LA on the journey of like a thousand steps of how would I possibly, like you said, get to be a minister through my work of whatever that is going to look like. And I started out in songwriting and I wound up podcasting. And I just keep asking the question, like, what would love want me to do? How can I be available today to serve that greater source? And isn't it so amazing how it's like, it feels like the most selfish thing in the world because it feels so good. Yeah, right, Right. To love people so much, you get back so much more. So much more.

Well, one of the things that I love, and I know your audience loves, is this essence of love, right? It's exhibiting love, to receive love, to give love, and kind of freely have that transaction. And while I guess in a roundabout way, I guess it could be as selfish. I know one of the things that I love most about the world nowadays is when we're able to interact with people. You end up giving them the love that they desire most, and they don't even realize they want it or need it until after. You literally make them feel seen, valued, heard, and appreciated, which is ultimately what I feel like every single human being on the planet is literally after craving, you know? Yeah, we're craving. You know, we go after resource because we think resource makes us whole. We go after relationships because we think relationships make us whole. And I like you, I found that my resource came from the source. And once I understood that, it made it easier to freely give the source, so to speak. I guess that's a lot of sources altogether. But another concept that you had in your. In your book, and I've actually heard it obviously talk about on your. On your podcast and Even recently on YouTube, is this essence of leaning your ladder against the wrong wall? Why do you think people tend to really kind of focus in the wrong area, or, so to speak, lean their ladder against the wrong wall? What do you think holds them back?

Well, I think what's really interesting is we're taught to have an answer and figure it out. And as children.

We'Re asked, what do you want to be when you grow up, before you really know what all the possibilities are in the light spectrum of all the things that you could be, all the colors, it's like, well, my dad's a plumber. The guy down the street works at 7:11. My mom got some big break in advertising. So I guess advertising, you don't really know. So we reach for the highest branch we can see. And so quite often, um, I heard Ken Robinson, who. He was such an incredible human being. Um, and he talked about how when people are in their 40s, they're often caught walking from the car to the office. And they say, how is this my life? Like, what, What. What is this? Like, why did I sign up for this? And he said, school sort of sells you a pack of lies in a way. Like, if you get this grade you'll get into this school. If you get into this school, you'll get a 401k, you'll get this job, and then what? So part of the paradigm here of why people put their ladder against the wrong wall is because they're shown a certain branch, and that is what they think is the highest branch they can reach for. What I want to do and what I see that you do is show people possibility. I think leadership is showing people a whole new path that they didn't know was possible. And saying, this is possible, this is here for you. This is evidence that other people have been able to do this. I like to say to people, hey, instead of having a job that feels like a job, what if you got paid to do your life's work? What if instead of saving your life's work and the things that make you light up till you retired or only for the off times that you possibly have free time, what if you could do it and then it becomes Kath, I don't even know what that looks like. All I know is that I've been good at math and I became an accountant. Or I. Now, if you like being an accountant, you're good. You're done. You won.

Congratulations.

Right? Congratulations. Right? And some people love it. You know, they love the structure of having a 9 to 5. And some people are intrapreneurs. They like to work within an organization. So all that's great, but there's a lot of people who have said, as we know, one of the greatest regrets of the dying is I didn't live life on my terms. And so if that's what we know from the data, then there's a lot of people who don't feel seen, who feel invisible. And so how can we find our way back to the ladder on the right wall? And that that requires allowing ourself to be messy and try things and to be playful. Now, what's interesting is that we're often in one of two modes. We're either in the receptive mode or the resistance mode. And resistance is just protection. Like, I don't want to try three things that I may not be successful at because I might fail. I might fail publicly. I might make a fool of myself.

When I had Julia Cameron on the podcast, she wrote this book called the Artist's Way. And she's been such an incredible gift to so many people. It's called, you know, the book is like 12 steps to creative Recovery. And she's also been sober for all these years, so she uses, like a 12 step creative journey, right? Yeah. She says, she says I've never seen a person who's really not creative at their core. And she said in the way, you know, that is, if you think about a preschool classroom, there's not one child in there that doesn't want to get their hands messy, that doesn't want to paint, that doesn't want to roll around in the sand. But somewhere along the way we don't want to be rejected and we don't want to be criticized and we don't want to stand out because we don't want to not fit in. We don't want to get it wrong. So we just stop playing and making, making things and we just put our ladder up against something that feels certain. Even if this. Yeah, yeah. Even if it's making us safe and costing us everything.

Yeah, yeah. There's a, there's a certain live truth about avoiding settling at all cost. You know, one of the things that I, that I stumble across a lot and I've heard you talk a lot about in your content and ironically I had James Alter on recently and yeah, he's an amazing dude too. He and I were chatting a little bit and one of the things that I heard you both say in different ways, which if I hear you both say it in different ways, to me it's a live truth. Okay. And that's this essence of you eliminate fear by turning your expectations into experiments.

Oh, he's so good at that.

You know, is trying to get to this concept of you're not trying something, hoping or praying it's going to work and, and you're not depending your identity on it. It's a little experiment. And I heard you mention that as well obviously in your book and obviously in all your content. Let's see if we can demystify fear a little bit. Let's break that apart, if that's okay.

Yeah. I mean, what is it really that we're afraid of? What is it that we're really afraid of? I think like you said, we don't want to be unsafe. I think that quite often.

We are firing and wiring old stories. Right. We know this from nlp. We know this from understanding now the mind and how it works. And so you could be sitting next to somebody and you could be sitting in the same space, but you're in two totally different places. And so we calibrate oftentimes to the situation that we have the most momentum around, like how our parents raised us or what we've co created in our.

Life so far, there's a lot of it there.

There's a lot there. Right. And.

When we go back to what we started talking about, which is.

That place where we drop into center, and you can get there from meditation, you can get there from prayer. You can get there from something that just opens your heart. Some experience that.

Yeah.

Just all of a sudden, you just feel your heart open up. When you're in that heart coherent place where you just are an open soul and you're right back to center, that part of us, it feels taken care of. It sees the good in everyone and everything. It feels very confident. It knows it doesn't have to prove itself, and that's always within reach. But what's happened is.

We don't calibrate to that. We forget about that. So instead.

We keep identifying with this story and this narrative and this ego. And in that place, things can feel really scary because I have a lot of work I have to do to prove myself. I got to compare my ego against this other person's ego. And you and I do similar things where we have conversations with people who have, like, you do huge platforms. Right. Like, I've. In the last month, I had an interview. Had to. I enjoyed it. But I interviewed. You do this all the time. I interviewed Dr. Phil. I interviewed Matthew McConaughey. I interviewed Priyanka Chopra. I just interviewed Harry Connick Jr.

Okay, that's gonna make my wife a little jealous.

Oh, my God, he's so cute.

Yeah.

But, like, of course, the Kathy part of me, the ego story in me, can get so caught up in the. Am I enough? And I'm afraid, and what if I can't pull it off? And who am I to do this? But when I come back to center, I'm like, oh, the highest vibration here is an open heart, is love. And if I can show up with an open heart, I could talk to anybody. I could talk to Oprah. I could talk to Obama. I could talk to any person and just be like, we can meet in that vibration of love, and in that place, there's nothing I have to do to earn somebody's love. And I think that this is really at the heart, because you said it before, that's what everybody really wants. I think inherently, we're afraid that we won't be loved or accepted. We don't want to be rejected. And I think what we've been taught is that love is a transaction. You'll be loved if you perform, if you achieve.

But that's really not love. Then Love is something that can't be earned. If you love somebody for a reason, then it's the reason that you love them, which means it's not love. So when you love someone and they give you reasons not to, that's when you know it's really love, Right? And so right now, like with you, what I'm experiencing from the second we came on is you decided to be generous to me.

Thank you.

And I can feel that. Right. And that's such a superpower that we know from science even, that if you. If you love a preemie baby, that way they'll get better. If you love a plant, that way the plant will grow better, healthier. Love is literally such a high vibration. It's faster than the speed of light. It's incredible.

So we forget that. And we forget that when someone is giving to us or loving to us, it says a lot more about them than us. So if we could free ourselves from having to earn this thing, then we could just show up and then let whoever we're here to connect with let us kind of like, be in sort of the current with those people rather than we set these ridiculous expectations and goals. Like, in order for me to be worthy of success, I would need to amass this many people to follow me. I would need to sell this many books. I would. So then this fear is like, well, who am I to do that? And how can I do that? And what if people don't like it and then we overthink and we get imposter syndrome, and we don't think we're enough? And all of that is our ego trying to earn the approval from other people's egos, which is when you just stop trying to win a race that you don't even want to win. It's like, what you've done. And I feel like I've done this where it's like, I started a podcast four years ago. I had zero Instagram followers, zero on an email list. I just knew I wanted to make this thing, and I opened my heart and spoke from the heart, and then you fly above the noise. It's not about something you're trying to.

It's not something that you have to figure out or you have to try really hard. You just are. And the people who need to hear it, hear it, and you build this connection, and it's. It's there for all of us, but we just don't think that it is. We're so bought in to the story that things have to be hard and Complicated. And we have to walk on our knees for thousands of miles in the desert or else. And that's just not true.

Yeah, I mean, you end up exhausted and empty. I mean, along the journey. And you know, when you, when you think about it, a lot of that comes down to the sense of ego that doesn't allow you to show your true self. It's that transparent vulnerability side. You know, one of the things that I love so much about your work is you've never been, or at least on the surface from what we can see right from the outside looking in, you've never been one to shy away from being transparent and vulnerable. In fact, you teach people to be transparent and vulnerable. And it's in that moment that people seem to find their authentic self because they stop trying to be something else that they're not to begin with. Now, do you find that that's typically an expectation that is put on them as they're growing up, or do you feel like just life experiences along the way kind of pushes them towards not being themselves or being true to themselves?

Yeah, I think it's because everything around us, you know, it's so primal. I mean this like wanting to belong. Back in the day, if you were part of a community of people and you said something, you could be like thrown out of the group, you know, so there's something primal about that. And I do think that we, we are probably picking up on generational trauma that gets passed down where our parents, they were taught or they felt that they were only worthy if they were skinny or got an A or made a lot of money. So they taught that to us because they didn't know anything else. And so we don't realize that if we speak from the heart, if we are honest, that we could literally love other people into life. And all of a sudden.

We don't have to be impressive because being in an open hearted vibration.

There'S nobody that doesn't want that. It doesn't matter. If you talk to Warren Buffett, he wouldn't be like, you know, I've had enough of that today. He'd be like, wow, to meet somebody who's just genuine and open hearted. There's never a day where that's something I wouldn't want to cross paths with.

Yeah, no, I love it. You know, I remember this. You know, it's funny how certain memories stick out in your mind. Certain, some, some of those memories are what equate to life truth. Some of them equate to life lies. One of the first Ones that I remember, my father, my boss, my father was gone throughout the vast majority of my life. He struggled with alcoholism. My mother also tried to commit suicide. I found her, which was kind of a. And I was like 9 years old at the time. So you and I definitely have some similarities and some backstory. But I remember my father coming to me one time, and he was. It was funny because he was trying to be as loving and encouraging as he knew how. And I used the word knew how because this is what came out of his mouth. Skagens don't get ahead, they get by. And I dug into that, not because of that reason, but I went and deal with those ancestry, DNA kits, whatever. I went and went through all that, come to find out that my heritage pre United States was largely in Scotland, Ireland and the western side of Europe, maybe a little bit of Scandinavian. But the first Skagens to step foot in the Americas stepped foot here as part of a penal colony because they had got shipped here from the Europe because they had killed a deer on Lord's land. And so they were sent here as in dirt and servants. And up until myself, my Scoggins tree had ultimately been.

Get by kind of people never have enough resource, never had the thought to become resourceful. You know, they had struggled in that general vicinity. And then I was very fortunate to have a couple of mentors along the way that changed the directory of my life. You know, I mean, one literally caused me not to commit suicide. Another one taught me how to think differently. And then, you know, put me in this position. I was actually on camera sharing it today with one of my team members. You know, if I just think back sometimes and how grateful I am that somebody stood. Stood in the gap to say, no, I believe in you. I know you don't believe in yourself right now, but I believe in you. Just come with me a minute. And that's another one of the things that I love most about what you do, because you do it naturally, you exude it. Right? It's beautiful. And, you know, I'm a big believer, as my friend Rory would say, Rory Vaden, he would say, you know, everybody's looking for a mission driven messenger. Nobody's looking for a guru, you know, and I'm looking at platforms like yours that has started in the most real and vulnerable true way, which is, I think, why you're talking about the vibration, why it resonated. It's so much to then gravitate. I mean, you've had millions of downloads of the podcast, not to mention, obviously Interviewing amazing guests along the way. But one of the things I love about each one of those interviews is you always have takeaways that also teach you as much as you teach others. And I've always loved that.

Totally. Thank you so much for saying that.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that, that I love, the boast about going back to this lifeline kind of concept that I loved was this sense of. How did you put it?

The.

The age is a gift when it's viewed through the lens of grace. So I kind of. When I, when I first, when I first I was listening to the audiobook at the time, but when I first listened to that, what it made me think of is my father and mother, who are very different now, thank God, than they used to be. They've been on their own journey and they've watched me kind of go on mine, which gave them courage to follow theirs, which has been amazing. Right. You know, so they've done that part, which has been amazing, you know, But I used to listen to my dad tell me all the reasons why he didn't think he could step up. And in his truth world, at least the world that he grew up in, that could have been truth by nature. And so he got to the point where he was in his probably, probably mid-40s, about where I'm at right now, before he finally realized that he actually set the tone for the life that he wanted and it had nothing to do with where he had been. And that where he had been was actually setting the stage for who he could be if he so desired. Now you've helped thousands of people go do that yourself. What are some of the common practices that you see that helps people kind of, for lack of a better word, wake up, wake up and kind of shake that off?

Well, I think the first thing is acknowledging that if you're here, you're needed. And also get that we could wait for a crisis to wake us up or we could understand that we have a hand in co creating our reality. And when I explain that to people, they first go, really? And then I say, well, watch this. Does how you think affect how you feel? And they're like, yeah, I guess so. And I'm like, okay, so now what if you think a certain thing and feel a certain thing and then does that affect what action you take during the day? It's like, oh, yeah, I guess that's true. Okay, now what if you think a certain thing and feel a certain thing and do a certain thing, would that create like a mood and like, yeah, it's like, okay, well, if you had a certain mood and it lasted, would that create your personality? I guess so, right? And then does your personality have any effect on your personal reality? Oh, yeah, it does. So we can decide to get that, and then we can wake up and say, so, do I want to live Groundhog Day every day? Do I want to keep doing the same thing where I'm going to think that same thing and then feel that way and then think that way? And our body literally gets addicted to suffering. Our body, because every thought produces a chemical, and so certain thoughts produce cortisol. And your body, just like a person who's addicted to nicotine will want that shame, will want that suffering, because the body's now addicted to it. Is that being kind to ourselves? So I think when we start to get that, we start to have awareness of that. And we also can understand that in the science we know there's this neuroplasticity. It's like, wow, wouldn't I want to wake up then and set an intention for, like, how do I want to feel? And what would be really cool is if I felt a little bit more.

Enthusiasm or love or compassion, maybe I would feel differently and then I would act differently. And so I could really create a different reality for myself and for other people. And I think knowing inherently that if we're here, we're needed, that's amazing. And knowing that anything we've lived up till now is great, because that contrast or whatever we've been through only gives us more of an ability to help other people that now, you know, if you want to get someone home, you probably need to know their address, get them home. So if you want to help somebody overcome something, starting with, like, that radical empathy of, like you said, knowing where that person has been, you can make some pretty powerful changes in the world for those people. And I would just like to say, for people who are listening, that what you were saying before about that vulnerability. I think that one thing that I've realized from the work that I've been doing and from the life I've been living is that depth is so much more important than with.

Yeah.

And so.

What I've noticed is so many people, if you said, would you rather have 4,000 Instagram followers or 4 million? They'd say 4 million. But what they don't understand is that if you have 4 million people who are kind of lukewarm about you, that's not going to make the same impact that having 4,000 people who are so obsessed with you. And Seth Godin, who's one of my mentors, uses the example of the Grateful Dead. And he says, and I'm not. I don't even know their music. So. But it's still such a great example. He says, everybody wants to be winning the popular vote. Everyone wants to be Taylor Swift, right? She had, let's say, I don't know how many number one singles. And so she was a hit machine. And then there's somebody like, take the example, he says, of the Grateful Dead, where people, they didn't. Never heard them on the radio. They didn't have a number one single. They didn't sell out these 20,000 seat arenas. Instead.

Instead of doing that, they would, let's say, have 400 fans or 1,000 fans. But instead of those 400 fans knowing one of their songs or buying a record or two, those 400 fans over their lifetime would go to 597 shows. They would buy every single record. And so if you look at that, what's interesting is from an impact perspective and as well as from a monetary perspective, the Grateful Dead actually made more money than Taylor Swift made because they went deeper. And the people who talk about them, they don't just talk about them. They can't help say words like, oh, my God, this is my band. These are my people. I met my wife at this concert. I am this concert. Ba ba ba ba ba ba. Versus somebody who's like, oh, yeah, I heard that one song. She did, and I kind of liked it. And. And she's cool. And I bought a record or two. I went to. Oh, yeah, I went to two concerts. It was great, but not the same as. So I think what we do is, again, we forget that.

If you want to make the biggest impact in your business, meaning monetarily, as well as in the way that you reach people, that vulnerability is the. That's the train there. Because intimacy is velocity. Intimacy is what really is the depth of service. And so I think we're all focused in the wrong way. Everyone's like, how can I get more followers? How can I get more people? And it's like, how about, can I make a small group of people feel so served that they become raving fans? And I can let go of trying to play this game that, again, the race I don't need to win.

Yeah.

And I've seen that in my own business. Like, I started this podcast four years ago with zero listeners, and then it was just word of mouth, and it grew into, like, an $11 million a year business. And I still, I have like 54,000 followers on Instagram. But the engagement is so amazing.

Super high. Yeah, super high.

I couldn't believe, honestly, if you would have said that to me, I would have been like, wow, that's, that's kind of shocking. Like that, that can become that.

So I think we all don't realize we're already there. We keep thinking that success is something way over there. We gotta find as opposed to like what's already within me that I could share. And it's really about that resonance. I give out and really I already have that. So I got that part. And then what if I could think about how many people I could affect today? If. Could I talk to six people today? Cause if I had six meaningful conversations today, that would probably be more effective to making an impact and helping me in my platform than if I talked to 30,000 people who were kind of listening.

Yeah, that's very true. I mean, if you think about it, I mean I'm just as you're talking about the key impactors in depth. Like again, folks like Steve Myrick and a woman named Susan Batts. Most people don't know their names unless I'm outspeaking or something like that. That's how they hear those names. But those names have meant more to me in my life than some of my other more well known friends and acquaintances along the way. Not my friends and acquaints along the way aren't great people and they don't have their own massive impact, everything going great, but because those people are the ones that really slowed down to really pour into me on a consistent basis. And you know, I think, I think what we're both trying to figure out to do in many respects is trying to figure out how we can do that at scale to double, triple the impact, but also have it be sincere and vulnerable and transparent along the way. Because I felt like at least I don't know about you, but at least in me trying to do this and trying to serve at this way, at scale. One of the things that I've bumped up against is this scenario where, okay, I'm all about authenticity, I'm all about active service. And then you get the tingles of, okay, well it's starting to shake loose and break loose and you have a little explosion. You're like, oh, okay, well what's going on here? And then it's almost like you have to fight back ego a little bit. And then it happens again, you know, as the platforms continue to develop and grow on a consistent basis. And I think one of the most meaningful compliments, it actually brought me to tears has been a few months ago, one of the young men that's been working with my office. He's now dating my daughter. So. Interesting. But you know, in the process, you know, one of the things he told me, I actually brought Steve Meyrick's granddaughter to our live event center here in Raleigh to just like say, look, I just want to show you what your grandfather meant to me. Because when I first met her, I think we were still living a single wide mobile home. It was all beat, all the junk and stuff like that, you know. So to walk her around this facility and have her see her grandfather's like quotes on the wall about all the stuff that he, you know, he poured into me and taught me on the way out, she was already teary eyed about just, you know, this impact and you know, she had the same, it's funny, she had the same stories or the same principles or concepts that I did, but taught in a different way. But as she's walking out, this young man, Connor, that's part of my team, comes up to her and she's like, you know, talking about Steve and her grandfather. And then Connor looks at me and he says, he's my Steve myrit. And dude, I started weeping, man. I just, I didn't know what to do with myself because I think it just goes to show that if I made this decision for myself when I first started this journey, that if it was one or a million, it didn't matter. But I was going to do it with all intensity, with all focus. And you know, my greatest gift would be for Connor to go out and change lives and transform lives all over the place. I think that's how we create a legacy that ultimately outlives us, you know, and that's one of the things I love most about all the work you've been doing for the last four years. It's been a sincere concerted effort to help people where they're at, meeting them where they're at. And I think that's rare. Most people are still expecting at some level for people to come up to them and be part of their journey based on the experience that they're in rather than going to somebody who's already inexperience. And as a result, I had this interesting epiphany and maybe you'll. Maybe I just want to hear your thoughts on it because I think it's a life truth that one of the greatest purposes in Life you can ever actually have is actually serving the person you used to be, because you're so uniquely positioned to serve that person with empathy, sympathy, care, consideration, knowledge, wisdom, education. I mean, I know you do a lot of work with purpose search and a lot of helping a lot of people find purpose and passion. As you kind of go through the Rolodex of your mind, do you see them kind of serving the person they used to be? Actually, out of curiosity, a hundred percent.

In fact, when we always talk about, like, who's your audience, who you're serving? And people get really stumped and like, all right, what age is. What age is she and where does she live and what does she eat for breakfast? It's like she's you, right? So what do you eat for breakfast? And where were you? What age were you when you needed this thing that you're about to give? And for me personally, that's been what it is. I mean, I felt really lost and I had this talent. I loved writing music and I loved singing and I wanted to do something important with my life. And I just felt this cautionary tale of, like, I can't grow up and be this adult, like my parents, who are so miserable in so many ways. I wanted to do something meaningful. And I came out to LA to try to get a record deal and I had a day job, I worked at a cafe, I worked at a real estate office. And I got. I got signed to Interscope. And then about six months later, I was with Lady Gaga. She was recording Paparazzi. I was with Ron Fair at Sunset Sounds. I was like, I can't believe this is actually happening. I knew, God, I knew you'd help me find this way. I knew I would be able to have this calling. And I thought, like a lot of people do that one day somebody would come along like that, like the wizard of Oz and like, the rest would be history and I'd be found, discovered and all this. And I got dropped from the record label a few months later. And I wasn't so surprised because I have a good voice and there's something about me that can connect.

Yeah.

But I don't have a Lady Gaga, Olympian level talent. And there are certain people, you look at Freddie Mercury, you look at certain, you're like, oh, my God, like, this person is a Serena Williams. Like, it's not just like, they're savants. Yeah, I kind of knew that, but I also knew that I had this ability to connect with people. And I got dropped and I went back to My day job. And I was sitting there in a cubicle looking at people wearing my pantsuit. And I was like, do they know that? I was so close that people who see star quality and other people saw that in me. So the sadness that I felt once I had, like, tasted what it was like to co write in these rooms. I was writing in the studio where they recorded at A and M Records. We Are the World. Joni Mitchell recorded Blue. I wrote these beautiful songs and I was right there. And then I was not. And I felt this feeling in me until I finally asked myself a new question, which was, is there any other way that I could show up in the world and have it not be all or nothing? Like, is there a way for me to connect with the world and do something I love if I'm not going to be famous and a superstar? And that was such a powerful question because so many times we think that that's what it is. Either you're miserable, but you have a decent job, or you get lucky and you do something incredible. But most people never get there because you'd have to be super famous and you'd have to be LeBron James or Giada De Laurentiis, or else you're nothing. There's nothing in between. We're so binary. So I said, wait, that's the question to ask. And so I started down that path. And I was like, well, how else could I write music? And I wound up writing songs for Grey's Anatomy and Switched at Birth and One Tree Hill. And I was like, oh my God. I started to have a career writing music for Coca Cola commercials and Walmart commercials. And I started making 50 grand every time, 80 grand every time. I was like, oh my God, Payless wants to give me $75,000 for a song to just license it. Next thing I knew, for one whole decade, I was making about $300,000 a year writing music for film and TV. I was featured for Full Page Stories and Billboard, Variety, the LA Weekly, all these things saying like, this is a DIY girl. She's a hustler. She found her way. She didn't need a record label. And then other artists were like, how did you do that? And I thought, well, I'm not a teacher, I'm a songwriter. I'm not going to teach this to you. And then I said, why am I saying no to that if God's asking me again to be of service? So I started down that path and I was pregnant and I decided to start an online class called Six Figure songwriting with zero understanding of what anything was. And my first webinar was for songwriters. I was pregnant and I had no slides. And I just spoke right to Cameron. I was like, okay, here's how I was able to get through to the people making the decisions at Paramount, Disney, these ad agencies, this is what they're looking for. And I was like, and this is the offer. If you want to work with me, it's a thousand bucks. I'll teach you this stuff. I'll come on live, we'll just do Q&As, and I'll give you everything that I have. And 147 people bought it at the end of that night. And I went, oh, my God, that's so crazy. And then I started teaching the class. And one of the girls in the class said, everything you're teaching is relevant to any path. You know, the way that you found a way to email people and not make it a businessy type of like formal email, but to ask this woman what was going on with her and to make a relationship and the way you creatively wrote music with the empathy of the story these people were telling. Instead of pitching your own songs and saying, how can you fit my songs into your stuff? You wanted to know how to serve their vision. She said, this works for any business. So I started a podcast right then and there. The baby had just been born. Now I had three kids. I had every excuse to be tired and not do it. I said, I'm just going to follow the path of the yellow brick road. And I started the podcast. And a week later, I got a call from this woman at Simon and Schuster. This is a book. We need you. I'm like, what? What's happening? Then the podcast gets featured by Apple. Then it gets featured again. Next thing I know, we have all these people coming on the show. And for a year and a half, I was still writing music, teaching that class, and doing this podcast. And then I was like, wait, I think I'm being called now to teach people who listen to the show how to do whatever their business is, whether it's crafting, sewing, screenwriting, building a yoga studio. And next thing I knew, I just was like, just go for it, Kath. And I was like, okay. So I started this program called Made to Do this. And it was a 12 week program and it's almost $4,000. And we started having 1,000 people sign up for this program every 12 weeks. And then they would go build the thing, they would open an ice cream store, they would that like from their house, they're going to start teaching yoga, they're going to do this. And then the pandemic hit after we started and it was like, oh my God, right place, right time, where people need this. And it's very heart centered. But it's exactly what you said. I mean, this idea of like, who are you talking to? It's you. When I look at the people that come through my show, I'm like, I know this feeling. I know this feeling that you're sitting there going, I was made for more than this. I can do more than this. If someone could just show me the path. God, this is frustrating. And so I want to see those people who are in their 30s or 40s who have felt like life just passed them by. It's like, hell no, wake up and let's go because it's available for you. So that's absolutely true. And I tell that to all of my students, is that you're serving yourself.

I love it. I love it. You know, I don't want to take up too much of your time, but I have a selfish question for you. My wife, who is an amazing woman who has in the last. We've been married now pushing seven years, she about three and a half years ago, one of her illnesses called endometriosis came back with a vengeance. She's had 11 surgeries, she's had all kinds of complications as a result. She has as strong as she is. I know that there's parts of her that is probably challenging to find purpose because it's really hard for her to be mobile and move around. If someone like that is sitting in front of you and you're trying to help them understand purpose and value, what kind of insights would you maybe consider sharing with her?

Well, I would say.

And this is not always easy.

But I would say your physical body, right, there's a whole story about this condition.

But in your true self, in your higher self, your whole, you're healthy.

And it's really amazing.

A lot of times.

They'Ve now been able to see that our biology and the things that manifest in the body, all kinds of diseases, all kinds of problems.

Can relate back to.

The way in which we keep.

Sitting in certain thoughts and certain feelings and how much that plays a role on our biology. That's, that's one thing. And so to really start to like love ourselves into life, there's actually this thing now called the heart math monitor where you can wake up in the morning and put. It's so not invasive. You just put it on your earlobe, and it'll tell you when you're in heart coherence. And I went to a Joe Dispenza retreat, and I couldn't believe what I saw. He literally had people with all kinds of ailments dropping in heart coherence. And then they would notice themselves, you know, go back to the doctor. This thing's getting better that things. And they can literally just. Just to know.

That we don't have to buy into that. This has to be this way forever.

Yeah.

And also, you know, my friend Amy Purdy, she doesn't have legs. She lost her legs from meningitis, and then she went on to win the Olympic gold medal three times in snowboarding. And she's had to have many surgeries this year. She's had some new. New injuries that have actually, like, taken her out. And she. She said in a way, it's like, harder than the first thing where she lost her legs. And she said she had this realization that, like, maybe.

If she could change the way she looked at this thing, like, if everything is ultimately happening for us, that's a big game changer.

Yeah.

And when you go to the gym and you do resistance work, it hurts. And if we could just sort of reframe the way things are and hold this in a new way, what could we love about what's happening? What could we start to walk toward? What could we start to see as a message, as a gift, which would start to make us feel differently about it, which might start to change certain things. I also feel that the body keeps the score, and we are not taught to roll out the welcome mat, to have empathy for ourselves and that truth. And so I think that oftentimes, if our back is hurting or we're dealing with certain yucky things that kind of rear their head, it's like our body is screaming at us to acknowledge something that we're carrying around, that we just don't give ourselves time or space to feel. And what's fascinating is we've all. All of us have gone through so much since we're little beings, and I think part of the problem is we're so afraid to feel those feelings, but what's really causing us pain is the story we tell ourselves about the feeling. And we think if we feel this feeling that's really underneath the story, it's going to annihilate us. But when we actually walk toward this feeling and go, forget the story, forget the narrative, what's the feeling here? You know, the feeling Is abandonment. You know what the feeling is? Loneliness. You know what the feeling is? Sadness. And if we could just sit in that feeling, all of a sudden there's actually something satisfying that feels integrated, holding that feeling. And I have just watched myself and other people.

Just overcome so much and release so much. And I, I, I empathize because endometriosis, just like so many things, can be so incredibly painful. In fact, for me, I wasn't able to ever conceive a child without going through multiple rounds of fertility because I had the same thing and had to have surgery on it. And we went through 14 rounds of fertility treatment, and most of them didn't work, but thank God we had three kids. And I just kept going back and surgery, this, and try this and this cocktail, and maybe this will work. And then this past summer, out of nowhere, I got pregnant without fertility treatment.

Oh, that's awesome.

But not. But, yes, but what happened was the baby was our first boy, and he had trisomy 18. He had a terminal illness. He had a hole in his brain and a hole in his heart. And halfway through my pregnancy, they're telling me, you're going to have to let this go. You're going to have to let this go. And I was like, I'm not wired that way. I don't think I can end the life of. I don't think I can do it.

Yeah.

And they were like, well, then you're gonna, you're gonna have to go through more specialists and see more of what you need to see. But we're letting you know that this is a, it's not merciful to keep this going because this baby is not healthy. And I kept going, and I was like, you know, the story is not going to be my story. And I wound up going from one specialist to another. And they were like.

If this, if you were my daughter, I would beg you not to have this child. This child is not. This child doesn't have a working brain or a working heart.

And so.

I had to let that go. And I went to surgery, and the doctor told me, she said, you know what's amazing? She goes, I'm not such a believer of anything. She said, you were out, right? You were under general anesthesia when I took the baby. The second I took him, you started crying on the table.

Like you knew he was gone.

And I'm saying this because when you go through hard things.

It'S really difficult to not.

Really buy into the narrative that, like, this is what reality is. It's hard. And it's not good.

But even that, I cried and I couldn't leave my room for a few days. But then I realized, you know, maybe this is one more thing that gives me fuel to help other people. Yeah, one extra. And maybe this soul came to teach me something about unconditional love. Because I got so many flowers sent to me and I got so much love, I felt so held. And then what was weird is I decided last minute to talk about it on the podcast. And I felt like, why am I going to talk about it? It's so personal. What if people judge me for it? What if I felt shame about it? I was like, no, I'm just going to talk about it. And I got so many letters from people saying, hearing the crack in your voice, hearing you cry, hearing you tell that story, it let me feel the pain for losing my brother. It helped me feel the pain for losing this. And I said, wow, then I want you to tell your stories, because then this little baby's life, even though it was a blip, would have a legacy. So I guess what I'm saying is, can we find some reason? Can we ask ourselves that question that I said way earlier in this podcast, which is, what is love trying to teach me?

Yeah.

What if. That's always the question. What if there is a trust that something bigger than us is always working for us? And Dr. Edith Eger was on my podcast, and she is a Holocaust survivor. Yeah. And she went through the kind of horror that has. It's. It's. It's. No one's never been seen on this earth. Right. Parents murdered, concentration camp, just death factory. Just, like, unbelievable. And she said, I call Auschwitz what you would call an opportunity.

Wow.

So I just think that there are incredible.

Things and truths and life truths, as you call them, that we can glean from the contrast of hard things. And that there's always something in it, even if it's learning to take better care of ourselves. Sometimes I've gotten, like, shingles or pneumonia or gone through miscarriages before, and I'm like, maybe this is like my sort of wake up, like, sit down, stop running around. Whatever it is. I just think that she's going through a lot. And pain without purpose feels like suffering, but pain with purpose, it gives us life. And so it's like, does this turn into purpose? And in what way? And does that wind up feeling that even though something is hard, it doesn't make it not be hard.

But does it make it meaningful?

Yeah. Yeah. I love that because, you know, I was thinking of Victor Franco as you were talking just now.

Right.

You know, it's his. What was his phrase? Suffering ceases to be suffering once it finds its meaning. Right. And I know that all the suffering that I've personally been through in life have. Has uniquely positioned me into this point where I'm able to offer things, and that's one of the encouragements that I've. That I have personally shared with her. It's like, maybe there's purpose in this. And obviously, if you're going through the. The. Either the front side of. Or the bulk of it, you don't always want to hear something like that. But I have seen her wake up in a really good way. She's recently become the state representative for Endometriosis Awareness, which North Carolina has never had one before. I've seen her touch, and I do mean touch somebody and have them weep before her and have her, like, just hold them. Like. It's the hardest thing to explain to me. It's beautiful. And I don't know that she naturally sees it, you know, that she can see it within herself, but I plan on supporting her so she can see it for herself. You know, kind of do that thing.

But anyway, it's beautiful that you care so much in that way about her that even brought her up today.

She's. She's. By definition, if there's. I don't know the scientific evidence necessarily back it up, but she is my soulmate. Right. You know, she's the person that I. That I prayed for. She's the person that I tried to become, to attract, you know what I'm saying? So it's, you know, so we. We definitely have that. She supports me on these endeavors, albeit sometimes difficult if I'm traveling from speaking and stuff like that. It's been difficult at times for. For the. For her to watch the platform grow, because there's, like, a fear of it growing and a fear of it failing all at the same time.

Sure, I get that. Yeah, I totally get that. I feel like I'm in that right now because there's been some conversations with some networks about me doing some kind of a TV show, and I feel my resistance come up. Like, I have three kids. I want to be grounded, and is that going to change my story or is that something I have to surrender to? And that's, like, such a blessing. It's not an easy thing to navigate all these pieces, but you're doing such a good job at it.

And I would argue that your hubby's Doing the same thing. I love watching you guys interact. You guys are like my wife and myself. You guys balance each other really well. I just think it's amazing to watch. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to throw you off there.

You didn't throw me off. I'm just saying. I mean, we've had such a struggle. And it's interesting because his mom just passed away, and that was such a gift in the sense that I was able to step up and be more nurturing and really get that, like, he needs me in a bigger way than I think. And he was able to receive that more than he ever has. And so I said to her, thank you, because in your passing, you're putting us together.

So we. But we. I mean, God, do we go through it. Like, there are so many times where we're just looking at each other and we're like, God, clearly, this is. This is.

I think all marriages go through that at various times. But at the end of the day, those that push through, make it through kind of thing. And. Do you have five more minutes?

Yeah.

I wanted one of the subjects that you've recently kind of been centering your conversations on that I love. So I've got one of my best friends. His name is Rabbi Penny Herman. He used to be based in North Carolina. He's based out of Florida now. Orthodox Jewish rabbi. He and I have some of the most beautiful conversations about all kinds of things. We have a mutual respect that I think stands the test of time. I think we do see each other through the lens of love. And there was something that he said to me that I just heard you, that your rabbi mentioned in the search for the afterlife or discussion around the afterlife. And one of the things that I heard both of them say that has stuck with me and almost it kind of resonates with me as a truth. And if you're open to talk about it, I'd like to kind of mention it. And that is this mindset that when we are in, I guess, what some would call heaven prior to be put in a body, there's this essence of us choosing the life in which we're about to live. You know, we volunteer.

Yeah.

It's almost like, here's the contract, by the way. You might have to go through some abuse. You might have to go through some of this. You might have to go some of this. But you're going. But you're. Here's the impact. If you do these successfully. This is what. This is what's going to come out of that. I love that theology. And I love that theology for a couple different reasons. I inherently believe that every single person that's breathing air on this planet, no matter what they've done, where they've been at, whatever's been going on up until this time, was originally destined to have a destiny that equated to an impactful service. And to find that service is almost like you're navigating all these different things along the way, and these things are intentionally trying to get you off track. Right. And that's part of the process, as part of the transition. Right?

Sure.

But as you're going through that, the. What some would refer to as actualization is actually you finding the destiny that you pre agreed to in heaven.

So would you mind breaking that down a little bit from your rabbi's perspective? And for those of you guys who are watching and listening, who haven't seen that, go to Kathy Heller's YouTube channel. She just did the interview and podcast with a rabbi. It's amazing. You have to check it out. But for the time being, would you mind breaking it down a little bit? I think it's.

Of course. You did it so well, though. You did it so well.

And yeah, that's. Actually. I spoke to a healer in Jerusalem when I was like, having this. This internal battle about what to do with this. This soul that was given to me for a short time. And she said, this is a volunteer mission. Like, he's gotten what he needed. Right. And she even said to me, what is the biggest test in the Bible? It's Abraham walking up to the mountain with Isaac. Right. And they went together. So she said, you're going together next Tuesday to the hospital. You're going to go together. And because the intention. And because there's like a sole contract here, which I thought was fascinating, but, yeah, the idea is that we see the movie before we come and we agree to it. Like, these are going to be our parents. This is going to be what it is, and you sign it. And the idea of Tikkun alumni, tikkun means to fix and olam means world, is that when God created the world, he didn't finish the world. He left room for us to.

Do the completing of it. And.

What'S amazing is that when God wanted to create angels, or, sorry, when God wanted to create people, the angel said to God, why would you do that? You have us. We'll do your mission. And he said, well, you're perfect. You don't have free will. So wouldn't it be Cool. If I created an entity, a being that had the ability to choose, because if they could choose good.

That'S one thing I'll never be able to do, because I'm only good. And that's one thing you. So in a way, a human being is higher than an angel because we have the ability to use our words for gossip, but we can use them for good. We have the ability to use our hands to fight, but we can use them to love. And that is so incredible. When you think of the adversity that every person goes through and then the extent to which we choose to give, it's what makes you literally, you see that kind of goodness in people. It brings you to tears. It just, it's so incredibly powerful. So that's what's happening here, is that at all times we're being given this choice. You choose this love, are you going to choose the other side? And that's why Star wars, like I watch Star wars, my husband, I'm like, this is so biblical. It's so probalistic, you know? Yeah. And so, yeah, we come into this world and then what happens is. And this is fascinating because people who've had near death experiences now report what it said in the Talmud, in the Kabbalah years ago, in thousands of years ago. It said that when you cross over, you see back the movie of your life. And in Judaism, we don't believe in quote unquote hell like you'd see in a movie with like fire. We believe in something called Gehennim, which is a process where the soul has to sit in the truth of what the soul did in that life and that you see that movie of the highs and the lows and there's nowhere to argue because, you know, whatever those lows are, you know you did it.

Yeah.

And whatever those highs are feels so good. Because, you know, you chose to help that little girl that day who was lost and you got her back to her mom, or you know that you reached out to your dad, even though in that moment he wasn't really deserving that mercy. And so you feel all of that. And that's the cleansing process. And then there's a whole extension that goes on, right. Of what the soul's journey is. And.

We believe that we will all kind of come back together in whatever is that messianic time at some point, which is not that far away.

What I'm watching is. It's pretty close.

Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty close. I mean, the, the, the Talmud actually Says that it's going to happen in the, in the year 6000. And then the, you know, the calendar that we use is from Jesus's birth, right. Which is 20, 21 years ago. But the, the calendar that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were using based on the moon, is now 5,700 and something years.

So this is pretty seven. Seven. Was it five, seven, 80 this year?

Yeah. So, I mean, we're pretty close to that 6,000 point, but we could bring around that time through the work that we're doing. Like, that's the thing, is that this whole thing was a game to see if we could choose good and pour more good in the world and let that reverberate and then. And we'll. We'll bring around that time on our own.

Yeah.

It's just really amazing to talk to you about this.

Yeah, I love it. This is like, this is. Okay, so I'm geeking out. This is, this is, this is that I have Fireside chats about, right? Because I just. I mean, I'm in awe of what God is, what it represents or what he represents, you know, the entity itself represents. And I find myself in act of service. And it was funny because. All right, so this may be way off, and I haven't studied Kabbalah and I haven't. So I've. I've got a long ways to go. But if, in fact, we sign a contract and agreeing to the life we're sent to, and then we navigate through the. Navigate our life trying to choose good over bad, obviously choosing to love a creator that created us obviously offers glory that's unrequited to the, to the Creator. So that's kind of like a moment, right? The next moment is like, okay, when you're going through your life and you have deja vu moments, ultimately what you're doing is, oh, I saw that clip. I remember that clip. And you're like. And then. But it also kind of, in a roundabout way tells you you're on track. All right? And then you come to the end of your life and God willing, it's something that's special and beautiful and you can have a lot to look back on. And you get there and then you go through the process of what I refer to as the soul learning. So the soul's learning what not to do next time. Then you're thrown in theory. Again, I don't have any science to support this. Right. Then you're thrown back into the mix. And then that explains reincarnation, which, if you look at what was it?

No Elijah. No Elijah. So Elijah ascends. Elijah. I always get Elijah and Elijah confused. But one of them ascends and then one of. Like when you start, when you do kind of go into the, the, the Christian Bible side of things, you start to see this conversation where people or people are like, well, is he Elijah? Is he so and so. Is he so and so? You know, so it's almost like all these, in these.

Heaven, life ending, life journey things are actually all connected and they're all connected in a different kind of way. And it's not until you sit back and try to get perspective and you get some of these starting points. Like, it just connected so many dots. And it was. My thing was like soul truth. I'm like, okay, kind of thing.

So you totally get it. It's amazing how.

You'Ve gone through such an, such a unique journey. But you had this sort of like in the game Zelda or something. It's like you had this little compass that kept showing you like true north. And it's like you were able to go, yeah, that's it now, closer, closer, warmer, hotter, colder. But yeah, it's amazing to me, you know, first of all, I love that all of the things you read keep pointing back to the same thing. Because that's cool, right? When the math pencils out to be the same number at the end. Because what you just said is what I was taught. And every time I speak to somebody who studied this, it's like they wind up at that place. So that's really interesting and cool. Another thing that's fascinating to me is how when people don't get this, there's this illusion that like you're standing on this earth. You're like, okay, there's the sun, there's the trees. This is life. And yet you know that time is relative, right? Einstein already let us know this. We know that a 24 hour day is only true for us because the sun and the Earth have to do a dance, which puts us at 24 hours. But outside of the Earth's rotation, there is no such thing as a day. A day doesn't exist. That's made up. So this blows people's minds when they actually get it. Because you're like, hang on. I know you're having a hard time believing in a soul and all this stuff you can't see. But watch this. You want to feel how real it is that we don't really get the whole game. There is no time. It's made up.

You're aware that there's telescopes and planets and stuff, right? Yeah. Out there there's no such thing as a seven day week. There is no time. There's no calendar. Not this way. Time is different. So what do we really know about what's happening? Meaning from God's point of view, he can see, she can see. Whatever you want to call it, God can see thousand years ago and a thousand years from now all in the same moment.

It's not locked, it's not landlocked.

Not landlocked. There's no such thing. Time is relative. Right? So they actually have done these things with wormholes in space where something gets dropped in a wormhole. From a naked eye of a scientist, it looks like it's frozen, but it's because it's actually traveling like 1 million miles a second. And we can't, we don't, we don't know how to perceive it from our physical like little brain. So it looks frozen, but it's moving so fast. It's moving so freaking fast. So this idea that the soul is only contained inside of a finite body that comes in in 1979 and Lisa's like, what on earth? That doesn't even make sense. In the atmosphere of the actual universe that we live in, there's a. You might be happening right now in another time. Like you might be happening in three times. We don't know what's going on, but we do know that we know enough to know that we don't know. We know enough to know that there's some stuff going on. So for us to put all of our money on what feels finite and sad. Why, why when there's all this reason, to suspect that this energy, this source, this soul, this, that, that's. If, like we said before, if most of what the atoms are made of is energy, it's, it's, it's a wave, not a particle. Then we're swimming in this wave and we, It's. It's hard to measure it and you know it. You know, love is real, but you can't, you can't put it in a glass jar. You know, gravity is real. You can't take a picture of it. So it's here and we know it and we just have to. It's not even a leap of faith. It's like my rabbi says, like, you know, it's just. It's love. That's what it is. It's choosing. Like we said before, we know love when we can love for no reason. Yeah, that's the ultimate test is, can we love God? Can we love the Creator, this universe, and give it the trust with that little missing piece of, like, being certain, having us see it for certain. That's love. Yeah, that's trust.

I was thinking about this, you know, it's when I first saw. Obviously I entered my faith journey with the. With the Bible and, And Christianity and stuff like that. And then as I got to know my rabbi friend, I got to learn more about from him. And ironically, he opened the things he was, you know, is taught through the Talmud and through the Torah itself. All of it together, Jewish mysticism, all of it. Like, it's. It's so interestingly simple but complex, right?

Kind of.

It's kind of. It has its own little dance. And I'll never forget this. The rabbi asked me one time. He said, you know, and we, you know, we think days of creation, you know, started here. You know, I think we're at 5780 from day one of creation. He said that, you know, I want you to consider something. And he said, you can use the Christian, you know, the Christian version of the Bible, or you can use the, you know, the Pentak. The pentak, the, you know, Torah. He said, but consider this. So many of scientific discoveries were already written about thousands of years prior to discoveries, including. I think it's in Job, where God is talking to Job. And he says, I hung the earth on nothingness.

It's not sitting on a stand, you know, it's just. It just. It just boggles. I'm sorry. We can talk about that.

It says in the Talmud that at one point the universe was smaller than the. The eye of a needle.

Oh, yeah.

And we used to think, before we understood the Big Bang in science, we used to think that the universe was always this big. We didn't know that it was expanding. But once we realized the universe is still expanding, we could calculate back that it was actually at one point, super, super, super, super, super tiny. The whole thing was like a peanut. And then there was this big Bang. And the Kabbalah talks about this big explosion. Yeah.

This ain. So this endless light shattered into millions of particles. And the other thing that's insane is that in the Torah, it talks about the animals that are kosher and not kosher. And what's crazy is later on in the years that went on when people had marine biology equipment and all this stuff, you'd think that they missed out on a species and a classification of all the animals. They're all in there. Which doesn't make any sense. Because if Moses was getting this information, living in that Mesopotamian region, how is it possible that he would know without having a submarine or anything, all the different classifications of animals that have hooves and scales on fish and this and that? And it was like, this is what this is. This is what that is. And it was all there. That. That shouldn't make sense. It shouldn't make sense.

I think what they figured out that. I think there's. What either. There's either seven or nine major. All animals fall in seven or nine pillars. Canine, feline.

Whatever bird stands for, whatever fish stands for.

All these species. Yeah.

Love that. All right, so apparently we could talk for days on this.

I'm so impressed that you know all this stuff.

You're officially my people.

You're my people. See, I came into it your way. I came into this at Florida State. I grew up in Florida, went to Florida State in Tallahassee, was a religion major, was studying Christianity, Buddhism. I only came to Judaism by an accident because I got a free trip to Jerusalem. And I was like, this is amazing. I'm going to stick around. And I stayed for three years. But most of my close friends are either Christian and real, real Christian or Jewish. And we are all.

On the same page. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, I know. I love it. You're officially my people. You're now my new best friend.

Thank you for this conversation. What a breath of fresh air.

We've had a blast. I appreciate you hanging on an extra few minutes for us to talk it out, because I just. I've been wanting to pick your brain about so much.

I'm so impressed with how much, you know. It's impressive.

Well, I've been, you know, I'm like everyone else, you know, I spent five years as a professing atheist because of the suffering that I went through early on in my childhood. You know, my main argument is, what's one of the arguments that a lot of people that profess to be atheists go through, which is if God was real, there'd be no suffering. Not realizing that God didn't create suffering. Man creates suffering, man creates harm. Man creates hurt, man creates hunger.

Right. It's that free will thing. Yeah, it's a darn free will thing.

Yeah. Apparently. It's like, dude, you could have maybe backed it down the notch a little bit, but, you know, give us some boundaries. And of course, he did try to give us some boundaries called the Torah. Right. So, you know, but you look at all that, you know, I remember my grandfather. And so there's a term in Christianity that is called soul winner. Okay. From the time that I was born to the time he passed away in 2016, he always introduced me to his friends and family and anybody else, regardless of their faith background, as his little soul winner, like from day one and at the five year, you know, when. As that five year mark with the atheist. And I'm trying to go through my own little journey, my own questions and stuff like that, you know, I remember sitting down with him numerous times and I would say, well, the big bang and evolution and monkeys and, you know, and I would come at him with all this quote, unquote science that I had studied. His entire argument would be this. You haven't done deep enough yet. Keep going.

And look how sure he was. So unflinching.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

Look, I don't want to keep you any longer. It's been amazing.

Thank you so much for the chat.

Yeah. We have to do it again, so whenever you're ready.

Yeah, Stay in touch. Absolutely.

All right, we'll do.

See you later. God bless you.

What a fantastic interview with Kathy Heller. And if you love that one, I know you're really gonna love this next interview right here. Make sure you check it out. Either pay now through the pain of discipline, or if you take the easy route and don't look at the warning signs, you'll pay a much more expensive price later through the pain of regret.