Turn Self Sabotage Into Self Improvement | Dr. Karyn Gordon

I'm curious to know how much self sabotage has shown up in your work.

80 to 90% of our behavior is actually unconscious. I mean, it's a crazy amount. And so you think about how many of us are making decisions with our business, our money, our body, our friendships, who we're dating. It's like this underground subconscious is guiding and we're not even aware of it. This is the. That is actually so crazy. And so that's why when we talk about leadership, the more we can actually start to kind of shrink that and actually have more awareness. And we're like, oh, wow, I'm doing this. Okay, that's actually not good. So I need to learn how to change it. But if we're not aware of it, then we actually can actually self sabotage over and over.

The three cherish principles in the book, Man, I'll tell you what, it's rock star. You know, I find a lot of especially early stage entrepreneurs, business leaders, achievers. Most of us don't know what's actually standing in front of us and keeping us from being super successful. And. And I was, as I was going through each of the chairs and of course, I'm gonna let you break it down for everybody, but everybody should grab the book for sure. Absolutely, 100%. I found myself sitting in each one of the chairs at some time or another, you know, and I think that's the natural evolution of a. Of a leader and maturing in a environment where you can excel. So without further ado, I was kind of hoping maybe we could break down maybe some of the attitudes and the things that go with the chairs and kind of like. And we'll. We're. You. I'm having no problem. I have no problem saying we're probably going to end up in all kinds of different directions as it makes helping people win. So anyway, yeah.

Amazing. Yeah, no, thank you so much. And your first observation around actually how you identify actually in all three chairs is very common. You know, I'll kind of unpack it for everybody listening and watching. But it's really important that this framework that I created many years ago, it's so simple. And I think that's actually why it's actually gotten so much traction, is that it is so simple. And you can apply it in all parts of your life. You can apply it in entrepreneurship, you can apply it in your marriage, you can apply it in your parenting, you can apply it in how you manage people. And I think that's just kind of like the power of it is the simplicity and the application kind of of it. So. Okay, so for those of you who have not seen, seen, or gotten gotten your hands on the book, that very.

Dynamic TED Talk, by the way.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, the TED Talk's done really well. The TED Talk is different than the book in the sense the book, it's a business book. It's a bit, it's a leadership business book. The TED Talk that is about the book. I did it differently, as you know. So you could actually watch it with your kids. You could watch your team schools could watch it. So. So I'm a visual learner. Are you actually a visual learner too?

I am very much so visual and kinesthetic. Yeah.

Okay, me too. Me too. This is exactly why I created this. I had to have a visual. I thought, you know what, there's so much content. So for everybody who is a visual learner, you will appreciate the visual. These are the three chairs. There's essentially three attitudes that we all have. And this is, this is really, this applies to every single age group. So whether or not you've got a 10 year old or you're 60 years old doesn't matter. This is a, this is a very transferable leadership principle. So there's essentially three different chairs I talk about in the TED Talk. Um, the left chair is what I call the blind attitude. That's the person that's negative towards himself. The right chair is what I call the arrogant attitude. And the middle chair is what I call the confident attitude.

Yeah.

And so these are basically the three different attitudes. It's pretty easy for people to understand. I'm like, okay, I kind of connect with maybe the left chair, the right chair, where it gets super interesting is the research that. There has been so much I don't like actually doing research. What I love to do is I love to see the patterns in research. So I, I kind of score through, I'll go, go through all the data in the different journals and research has actually been done. And that's how I came up with the three chair concept is I just kind of went through all the data and I actually realized that there was really these three predominant mindsets or attitudes that actually people have. And once you actually understand the three chairs or the three mindsets, then the power of it is you can actually predict with a lot of certainty how people make decisions based on what they sit in.

Yeah.

And so what kind of goes through all the detail around the three different mindsets? And how does, if I'm in the left chair, how does that impact my communication, my goal setting, how I handle feedback, how I, you know, who I'm attracted to from either a partner or friendship, who I'm attracted to in terms of promoting. So you can actually do a lot of predictions based on behavior where a person's actually sitting. And that's the power of it. So the first step is getting people to think about what chair do they identify with. Second step is to think about how does this mindset then impact different parts of my life. And the third step is how do I help myself sit in the middle chair. Those are kind of like different levels to it.

Yeah, I think. And I think it's a, I think it's a very pivotal conversation and concept because most of us, at least for me, I wasn't aware I was sitting in any given chair.

Right.

You know, I'll tell you just, and just in full transparency, my audience knows this. You may, may or may not, but the business that I just exited was one that I started when I was homeless. And as a result, I found myself trying to, quote, fake it till you make it a little too hard. So I had a lot of folks with COO and CFO and all these different titles, degrees and all this kind of stuff kind of that were in theory working for me. We always say with now because that's how we became. But.

Right.

I'm at the time 4 and you know, it was. I would lead out of arrogance and bullying early in my career because I didn't, honestly, I didn't know anybody. I didn't even know I was doing it.

Right.

I wasn't able to self identify with the fact that I was actually leading from fear and insecurity. I was insecure that they had all these degrees and things of that nature. And so what value did I bring to the table now? At that time, I'd already generated, you know, 10 or $15 million in top line revenue by the time we got to that point, you know, so I, I finally had to become self aware enough to know that first of all, that was a behavior that I wanted to continue to do.

Right.

I had to then go inside to work, you know, kind of start with inside work, to kind of bring myself outside to kind of be more self aware of what was triggering these responses. And slowly but surely, I kind of went from one extreme to the other. I went from the, the arrogant chair to the of chair. Right. And then I finally found myself in the middle. Yeah.

Okay. Wow, that is amazing. What an amazing journey.

It was a very long journey. But it was worth it.

Okay, so my question for you, and then thank you so much for sharing. My question for you is what helped you identify that you were even in the right chair and what helped you actually get to the left chair? Because I think that a lot of times the, this, the journey that people do not a lot of people go from the left to the middle chair, usually from the left chair. Because this is really a cover up for the left chair.

Right, Right.

But this is kind of like, you know, we act like. And this is really important, everybody listening. Like we'll have bosses or clients or team members or neighbors. Yeah, this is, this is a big cover up for this. So as you kind of. Exactly as you explained it, when you're here, then you have the awareness that you're actually over here and then you kind of get yourself to there. So what was the first thing for you that helped you identify?

So there were, there were. And I love working, I love workshopping stuff. This, this is fun.

This is like full disclosure. Everybody, they don't, nobody knows with what.

They just like, well, they know and they know I'm super vulnerable, transparent. Anyway, so we're good. But. All right, so the honest answer to that question was two. There was two triggering events that triggered the behavior awareness that then, you know, started me on the journey of behavior modification. The first of which was actually my good buddy, I saw you on my good buddy George Kimmel's podcast that long ago. About a year ago.

And yeah.

And ironically, I went to a entree leadership event in 20, in 2011.

Okay.

What my audience does know and what they didn't know at the time was I'd actually been in my, my closet praying that somehow I would like figure out my leadership and all kinds of stuff. In other words, I was self aware enough to know at the time that I, that I wasn't leading the right way. But I wasn't sure how to change it, if that makes any sense.

Yes.

So I go to the event. I have a couple little humbling moments, getting to the event, some other stuff. But then Dave obviously teaches, you know, from stage for however many days. And you know, the first, the first lesson is what a leader is, not what a leader should be. And I was identifying more with the not than the should be. And that time. And so that started the process of, of self awareness. And I like to say I got my teeth kicked in for two days and I got rebuilt over the next two days. Um, it's, it's a great program. You know, I've I've, I've sent lots of, I've referred lots of folks to, to Dave and Sharon and those guys, but.

So that was the first thing and, and of course I went back numerous times over the course of years, but the follow up event is. Shortly after that event, I went back to my office for the first time, armed with personality assessments I'd never seen before, armed with leadership tactics I'd never heard before, armed with a vision of what kind of leader I wanted to become. And the first step for me in that journey was actually becoming very honest with my team.

Wow.

Oh, that was the first time they ever found out I was homeless. It was the first time they ever found out I had dropped out of high school to pay the bills. They even, that got me, even started on this track record. It was the first time that I had ever owned up to the fact that I wanted to change. And so, and that we had what we called at the time of production meeting with all the team there. It was like three hours long. Half of it I was crying and wailing like a moron. I mean, not a moron. I was just becoming very self aware. I felt, I didn't feel guilty, I didn't feel ashamed. I just felt like I needed to be honest, if that makes any sense. So I always say that transformation happens with radical transparency. Happens with yourself. So for me, I was getting radically transparent with myself. And over the course of the next six months, as you can imagine, my team was studying me. Is this for real?

And at this time, out of curiosity, Stephen, how many, how many team members did you have?

Oh, gosh, we were probably 20, 25 team members.

Okay.

Not, not a super, not a small, not a really micro organization, but not a super large organization. I shared with you before we got started that when I exited the business, you know, between 1099 and everything, we had like 400 folks. So it grew rapidly over the course of the several years.

And so how do people respond? How do people respond to you being that vulnerable?

I think, you know, honestly I would tell leaders that it's, it's worthy of doing, of owning your journey, being honest with your team about it. I had some that tried to use it to begin to work me, so to speak, for gains. Most of the team was like, ah, that makes a lot of sense. So I would say that while a handful would try to begin to use it to work me. And those are just people that need to work on themselves. The vast majority of them allow them to express me grace where I hadn't really earned it because I was being honest. So much so that about six months later, I didn't feel I was making enough progress. I happened to be back with Dave and those guys and Dave told me very point blank, he says, dude, you got to give yourself some grace. Like it's, it's been six months. You've done a lot of work. When you've gone through years of working with teams, we're talking two or three years. I mean, it's consistent time of working with teams and not doing it well. From a leadership style, I was always quirky, like quirky. Brilliant. As a visionary, I just had, I didn't have any, any. I didn't have a lot of emotional intelligence at the time as far as I was communicating. And he, you know, he just has, you basically, you need to keep going. So it took about 18 months from the time that I made the change mentally, emotionally, before the change manifested itself in such a way that all daily behaviors followed suit.

Right.

Even, even. I'll give you an example. Even in how I handled meetings. I used to walk into meetings with my team, you know, my executive team at the time, and say, well, this is how we're doing it. This is where we're going. This is my. And like almost force feed the ideas and concepts I had down their throat. Whereas now as I'm building new executive teams for the new organizations I'm building, it's very much of, okay, I want to hear what you have to say about X, Y and Z. I'm always the last one to offer advice and, or, or considerations. And only because I've realized that by not doing that, I eliminate the possibility of fantastic ideas ever manifesting themselves in the business, therefore becoming the bottleneck in the business specifically. The second event was just a young lady. We were doing profit sharing. We used to make them do a Google financial literacy test, or not a test, but a program before I would allow any team member to, to qualify for profit sharing. My mistake or my, my thought was, well, if I'm going to give away money that would normally kind of sit either in the business or in my net earnings, I want everybody make sure they're good. Has to have the chance of being a great steward with it. So my intentions were always good, my actions weren't always good. And then one afternoon this young lady asked me and I was putting boxes away. She was behind me and she's like, you know, my husband and I are going through a struggle. We can't find a sitter because a lot of that training was happening on site with, with the entire team. I was buying pizza and all kinds of stuff, and she wasn't fully aware of it. And as we were chit chatting about whatnot, she asked me, you know, we can't do it. Can I qualify for profit sharing without doing this literacy thing? And I just kind of like knee jerk said no. And within about 10 seconds, I hear crying behind me. So I turned around, I was like, whoa, what just happened?

You know, and then, then she began to say, well, I got this going on. I said, well, I'm, I'm providing child care, you know, so again, to me, healthy communication comes from healthy awareness. And it's taken sometimes a long winded answer to your question, but that's what, that's kind of how. Those are the two catalyst points.

Well, you know what I love about what you're sharing is, you know, I can share all the frameworks and the academics and the tools and blah, blah, blah. But the power, I think, is the story. Right. The power to me is real stories on people that are like, okay, this is when I sat in the left chair. This is with what it looked like and what happened to help me have that awareness, to kind of get my in the middle chair. So. Oh, I just love your story. It's such a great, it's such a great story. And you know what, when you said, you know, in terms of your, your lack of, or your low emotional intelligence, this really is a book about emotional intelligence. The whole point is like basically a very easy, simple book on emotional intelligence. Then one of the things that I really always want to inspire everybody is that when I think about leadership, it is not a position. It is not about positions, it's not about titles. It's not about great. Leadership is really, It's a mindset. And we can start teaching it to children really, really young, which is why my TED talk is all around. You know, how you can actually start the conversation about the three chairs to your children. Yeah. So, but this really is about, this is about a mindset and how you can actually start that. So.

Sure. Well, it's interesting because when I started the, when I went from one chair to the other, what happened inside of me was I didn't have a good gauge of boundaries. Talk about boundaries a little bit because I again, I, I started in the, the arrogant charity insecurity. And yeah, this kind of, literally that was the driving emotion was insecurity.

Yep. Then you, then you go over here.

I go over here because. And when I went over there now. It was like, okay, I'm. I'm more self aware than I've ever been before right now. I don't want to make a misstep.

Right.

So that opened the door for a lot of other folks who are opportunistic to jump in and begin trying to push boundaries. Um, and it took a little while before I realized that the boundary on both sides were my goal lines and I need to stay in the middle. So treat people with kindness and consideration, but also don't let them run over me. Basically.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So a few things I want to highlight that that's really important. So, like, for everybody listening, watching. Absolutely. So the awareness is the first kind of step, which is why a lot of people, if you're in the right chair, you're going to kind of move to the left chair. So there's gonna be a moment kind of like, oh, my goodness and holy crap. Kind of moment where you're, you're. You. It's like kind of like you have the. Your eyes are like, you know, you can now see, but. Exactly. You said. I don't. I. This doesn't feel very good. But I. You kind of. I want to get there. I don't know how to get there, but at least I have the awareness that this actually even existed. So. So I think that's really important. The second thing I want to highlight is boundaries. It's funny, we're doing a masterclass about this actually tomorrow. Boundaries. So boundaries tend to be a little bit too rigid over here, and they tend to be too loose over here. That's generally a very. Kind of general.

Very much so.

And what's interesting, though, is entrepreneurs, when we talk about entrepreneurs, a lot of times we are attracted to people who have the same emotional intelligence that we have.

Correct.

Okay. So that's why if I'm in the leader over here, I'm going to unconsciously, a lot of times hire people that are also here over here. So what was really interesting when I do team and we work with organizations all around the world, is that when I'm working with leaders, when they have this awareness and they're kind of getting into the middle chair a lot of times, and I'm curious, but it's for you, a lot of times they're like, oh, dear, we've hired a whole lot of people in the left chair. The right chair.

Yeah.

You know, I'm saying, like, so when you're. Now you have this kind of come to Jesus moment, so to speak. Right. You're now kind of like moving yourself kind of in the middle chair. Did you kind of like start seeing how you're hiring could be different?

Very much so.

Who you should be promoting should be very much so because now you're seeing things differently that you didn't see before. Right?

Yeah. Well, I would say that there was, there was a greater importance on hiring well and so much so that we, I developed a whole new like call it a rhyme or whatever it was become a. It became a bit of a mantra within the organization which is higher, slow fire, fast, mentor.

Often love that.

And the reason is, is because there are people like I like my going back to myself.

Yeah.

Who don't know. They're operating either in the left or the right chair. They, they don't really have a true awareness of. They're either getting bowled over on a regular basis or they're being too aggressive on the other.

Right.

And once made aware of, they want to be better. Like they want to be an exceptional leader or an exceptional performer or an elite performer. And there's others that they legitimately either don't care about the surf, they don't really want to be self aware, they're happy in their little bubble, you know. And those people we need to exit out very quickly a course. A couple of things change in our hiring process. We stopped hiring just because we needed someone. So okay, we need, we have a position open. Is your sister available or is your cousin available? Right. It became a lot more intense. Right. You know, so we develop, we develop formal job descriptions and we did it in such a way that I began to train my leaders on a concept that really made really good in my heart which was what strengths do they have or what strengths do they need to have? Ironically, what emotional intelligence they need to have to play with this specific team? Because you might need someone slightly more aggressive in a sales position than you would in administrative now obviously in a healthy concept. But we need someone who's a bit more gritty.

Yeah.

Education was there, but it wasn't top of the, it wasn't top of the list for our organization. If they had the, if they had the ability to do the job well.

Right.

That's what we were really looking for. And then kind of what, what is the overall dynamic of the people they're going to relate to their leader as well as the people that may or may not be reporting to them. So it was a bit more of a, a conversation center around dynamic. We, we began using disc and values and attributes as a personality assessment. Tool to figure out who would mix well with others. And those were just some of the things we did a lot. But those are some of the things amazing.

So a few extra things that we also recommend to add to that. So we look at three kind of pillars. The one is the IQ or the technical skills. So make sure that people actually have the job. They can do. They can do the job. The second part is the emotional intelligence. And to help with the emotional intelligence we have a scorecard. It's free. Anybody can go to our website dkleadership.org org that is not dot com. People always come the wrong website. I'm driving a lot of traffic to another website.

So they're very grateful for your great gracious.

Yeah they are. Somebody, somebody's getting a lot of, a lot of traction. So. So it's DK stands for Dr. Karen leadership dot org. They can download our leadership scorecard. It's an EQ leadership scorecard. There are five core skills. Okay. That people can measure. People often ask me, you know, how, you know, what are those? The, the metrics, what are the very tactical things we need to be looking for? So it's a one pager. It's a simple thing. A lot of HR use it. A lot of teams will use it. I encourage people to, to download it and to get people to self assess. Yep. Very important that people self assess their own emotional intelligence. And it highlights what are the parts that they're doing well and what parts actually need to get worked on. Okay. So that's the second kind of pillar and then the third one that I really get people to identify exactly what you say is around the values, making sure that the values that their own personal values there is alignment to the organizational values. So like the three pillars. And when all those three things are lined up, it's like a light. Sometimes you'll have like two of the three. But the really awesome one, the great team members are the ones that have all three.

Yeah, no, I love it. It's. In fact I was made me think of something that with our. When we especially we started hiring on a consistent basis, we were growing rapidly. We began doing some different things because I've discovered that some people are really good about hiding or crazy for about six months and then they're crazy will show up and they'll, you know, they're throwing grenades in their team and all kinds of stuff.

Right.

So we began actually doing a couple different things. So every organization, most organizations measure their team members by some form of metric. Right?

Right.

You know, even if it's just did you show up today? Right. That's, that's like day one, business one. Right?

Yeah.

However, not many organizations actually have a, A, A, a way for the team to evaluate their leaders without fear of retribution. So we instituted a quarterly assessment that I actually tied my leaders compensation to.

Specifically to make sure that they were leading well. And obviously all the data was coming in. I mean, you have an idea who's in the, you, you might have 25, 30 people in a department.

Right.

Kind of thing. But there was no way to selectively say this person said this or this person said this or whatever. And we also obviously encourage the team to be, you know, constructive in, in their critiques.

Right.

And a couple of things actually happened from that. First of all, I found out there I had some really stellar leaders in a lot of different capacities.

It's like a report card for leaders.

It is. And it actually started from a, from a question that a good friend of mine who, who was a business and life coach of mine for a number of years and just now we're just really, really good friends. His name's Chris Licardo and he asked me one time, he said one of the most powerful questions he ever asked as a leader to a team member or subordinate, whatever you want to call it up here on your organizational structure was how am I failing you as a leader?

It's a great question.

That was a catalyst, another catalyst thing to help me understand, like, you know, I'm not super great with details. Like I'm really good with big picture, I'm really good with strategy. If I have to get into an Excel spreadsheet and spend hours upon hours or days upon days there, I will get my number. I could do it. Yeah. Because I forced myself to do it, but I don't want to do it kind of thing. And you begin seeing these streaks and weak, these strengths and weaknesses to that value set. We began actually asking questions around values.

We used to say we were a family organization. And then we realized most families are dysfunctional. So then we started.

A lot of families break up, so.

That's right.

I've used that analogy too. But then they're like, well, what do you hire? What do you do when you've got a grandpa like part of your team? Do you fire grandpa? Like this is part of the problem. But yes, continue.

Yeah, well, you know, so that then was, okay, we're going to build a team. What do teams do? Well, teams promote top performers. Teams unfortunately will either. What do you Call it, they allow for another team member to go to a draft or whatever. Like so they release the team member if they're, if they're just not going to get on the bus. They work with players, so to speak, that are going through growth seasons of, hey, they're just, they're at this level, they're going to the next level and the tension in between.

Right.

And then you have to have leaders and coaches, if you will, that kind of recognize where those people are on that given track record. But they can't do that if I wasn't doing it. People have asked me a hundred times, you know, what's the greatest mistake you've ever made in building business? I said, oh, it's simple. That's the easy one. Trying to build a business about building myself.

Right.

Which is why I think your work is so important. Because I think anyone that can get their hands around the concept in the book, they're going to have a better understanding of what they need to do for themselves and they'd be surprised how rapidly they can grow.

Well, and it's, it's the, the reason that I love this work so much is that I can, I can show people how to get in that middle chair. I've been doing this for almost 30 years. I know what people need to do.

Yeah.

And I tell people that all the time. I know what needs to get done. I just need to have a willing participant.

Yep.

I can't give willpower. I cannot give the desire. I can teach the tools.

Yep.

And I can teach the tools to an individual. I can teach the tools to a team. I can teach the tools to an organization, but I cannot get the willpower. And so that's always. I, you know, there's, there's a few of my favorite books that I think every organization should get their hands on for different kind of reasons. And so the three chairs is really good for somebody who really wants to develop their own self leadership. Like, how can I really kind of develop my own self leadership? And to your point about the report card, the other thing that people could use just as a little FYI, because I love the idea around leaders being evaluated.

Yep.

And just like it's so our whole thing as a company, what we do is we help develop great leaders at work and at home. That's what we do. That's our purpose. That's where so we love, we work with organizations in seven different countries, all different types of sectors, and really helping to develop that self leaders. People can really thrive in both organizations. And families. So on the family side we have a report card. And the report card is for children to do a report card to their parents. Exactly.

That's awesome.

So that, that, and that was inspired by young people saying I want to give feedback to my parents but I don't know how to do it.

Yeah.

Created a score and it's all, this is all free stuff that they can actually do. But the same thing with the scorecard I was talking about on the, the five leadership EQs, we actually have a lot of the great managers, the great leaders. They'll say I'm going to, I'm going to score myself and I'm going to print five copies, I'm going to give it to my five team members and I want also to score me. And then I'm going to, then I'm going to kind of cross reference it based on what I've actually done. And then all of a sudden we see the gaps because are we kind of ourselves a 9 out of 10 on the communication but everybody else is giving us a six. Then all of a sudden you know, it's we, we can't change what we don't acknowledge, we can't change what we're not aware of. So that's why everything in this whole process starts with self awareness and so that I like things, I love research and I love data and I love patterns. But I love things very tactical because if things are not practical, people don't, people like okay, I like it, but what do I do? So that's always say the first step is you do the scorecard that kind of gives you that real data. If you're gutsy enough, and I hope everybody is, print a couple extra copies, give it to your team member and let them score you.

Yeah.

And talk about, talk about those numbers and then talk about what your action steps are going to be to kind of move forward. This is rocket science. We can all do it, but we have to lean into it thousand percent.

And the reality is those that lean into it, those organizations, those leaders, they tend to go through a growth curve but then they tend to accelerate very quickly after that. I know I did 100%. You know, I want to give you a couple hypotheticals. Let's hypothetical number one is I'm a C suite professional working for a great company, but a not so great leader. And we'll start with this particular leader is maybe sitting in the arrogant chair.

Yeah.

How do I, and if I'm speaking for them, how do I position, how do I, how Do I work with that leader? What can I do to get that leader's attention, to start the conversation and probably to, you know, begin to work on themselves a little bit. Because I love the company, I don't want to leave, but this group, this person's driving me nuts.

Right. So in other words, example is like. So the example is somebody's in the middle chair and they've got the leader who's basically pulling up my visual. So you're, you're kind of in the, in the middle chair. You got a leader, somebody that you're reporting to that's kind of in the right chair.

Exactly. Yeah.

Perfect. Okay, so a few things. Number one, it's really important that all of us realize kind of with why we're saying this is just a big cover up for this. Okay. So let's not get fooled by it. Okay. So people that are kind of like have got that really arrogant mindset. It's a big cover up for insecurity, but a lot of times they're not even aware of it. Like they're just act, they're, they're just acting out a lot of their own insecurity. So it's really important. Step number one mindset, that person, that middle chair is if they're having an off day, if they're aggressive. This is not about me. This is not about, you know, so if you were my client, you were like telling me this, you know, in, in our one on one session. I'd be saying this is like all the er, the arrogance, the drama, the aggression. Not about you. This is about them. Because, because otherwise people. Because what happens is the person that left her will personalize it. I'm a bad person, I'm a bad leader, I'm a bad employee. Because you'd be lashing out. And so this person's like, this is not my problem. This is their issue. So that's kind of like number one. The second thing though is to really be assertive with the person, the right chair. So it's really important. And we, and there's a, there's a few of the chapters in the book that talk about communication, conflict and how to actually address it. And I've had lots of leaders that I've had to work with. Sure you have as well. That is sitting in that, in that right chair.

Sure.

What I have found is it's like an, it's, it's a dance and it, there's an art and a science on how to be graceful and also very strong and very direct. And very assertive because I have learned, and this might even be amplified because I'm a female as well, that if I am too soft, you actually, you lose respect. You're. They. They won't respect you. The times when I can think of in my. In my own career where if I had to really challenge somebody as a leader in C suite on that right side, the more I. You have to be graceful and classy about it, but very, very strong. And all of a sudden they have respect. And when they respect for you, then they listen.

Yeah.

And I think of it, I'm sure you can think of times in your life, too, where when you challenge that person, that right chair, because the person, the left chair, they're actually scared of them. Yeah, the right chair, they're not scared of them because they kind of like, see right through them. So you. So you kind of. You pick your battles. You don't kind of raise every single thing, but you collect. You selectively choose the time where you're going to be very direct and very classy about it and really challenge them. And all of a sudden you'll find that the. The tide turns a little bit.

Yeah.

So. But you have to be very careful about it. So that would be the. That would be the one. I'm sure you can think of times. I can think of.

Yeah. I was just thinking that some of the times that I. That I had. One of the things that respected most is I had probably say, three instances where I had to. I. I needed to be checked. And in one instance, it was more of an attack. So I didn't. So it didn't really work. Well, the other two instances it was more of. You've said you want to. Do you want to be this kind of leader?

Yes.

You said that this is your end goal. Here's an example of where you could do better.

Yes.

And very specific examples. Yeah, exactly.

And thank you for raising that, because that is one of the biggest things with the middle chair, because they see through it. They can see the dynamics of what's actually going on. They will be more assertive, and they are the ones that are phenomenal at holding those leaders accountable.

Yeah.

You know, I. In one of the things, if I was to think about the big issues on leadership in different, you know, different sizes and different teams, the big issue is accountability. There are so many people that are afraid to hold leaders accountable.

Well, that's why I got away with. With misbehavior for as long as I did, because no one would talk to me about it.

Right.

No one wanted to raise the question. It took a, you know, it took a seminar to get my attention.

Right.

And then it took me opening the door saying, no, I want the feedback.

Yeah.

And then not responding and responding, you know, aggressively or whatever to the feedback, saying, okay, I respect your perspective. Take some time and reflect on that. You know, the other example I want to give is the opposite, which is a very passive leader. So maybe you're sitting in the middle chair, you have a very passive leader, and because of that, maybe you're beginning to lose respect for them. Maybe you're beginning to, you know, kind of question. You know, I'm trying to think of the different dynamics that I've personally seen. I've. All my. In my own businesses, I've had very passive leaders that I'd had that either needed, had to be replaced or worked with to matured. I've also had very aggressive leaders, including myself, that had to be worked with, matured, or exited.

Yeah.

You know, because in some terms, Tom Patterson calls it the Keeper. The keeper is. Has the leadership capacity to do. To translate visual visionary language and strategies into tactical activities for grinders and minders, is what he calls it, which are people that are day to day operators.

Right, right, right.

The keepers, from what I've read and what I've understood about the middle chair.

Are very much kind of that. That glue that holds it all together. And from my experience, you can chase a red chair away because you won't address a white chair.

Mm.

Yeah. So. So it's interesting, when the book came out and I started doing podcasts, I did one podcast and it was for a bank and actually it was the CEO and a VP on it. And it was interesting. One of the leaders, she. On the podcast, I'm not saying anything that is confidential. She identified at sitting in the left chair. Okay. So very quickly on the podcast, you know, he identified as sitting in the middle chair and moving a little bit to the right. She identified with actually imposter syndrome sitting in that left chair. We talked about this, we talked about that very issue around what does that look like, practically speaking, if a leader is actually sitting there? So things that it looks like is they don't deal with conflict well. You try to give them feedback and they're. They're what I call feedback fragile. They kind of like fall apart. They personalize the feedback. So it's really hard to give them feedback. They. A lot of times they can. They are more likely or more at risk for being a perfectionist because Everything has to be perfect because their self worth is based on the outcome. So then what happens is you've got the perfectionism which is probably when you're going to have the anxiety. So then what happens with those two things? A lot of times things get delayed because you've got perfectionism anxiety. They tend to procrastinate. So then things are not getting done. So like this, there's this whole ripple effect that actually happens.

The, the biggest way to really reach them is actually the same way you actually do it with the right chair which is to really lean in and having an honest conversation with the intent to really say I am concerned, I'm concerned for you. I'm concerned for you. Like so it comes out as a genuine heartfelt care for the person and then actually addressing specifically the behaviors that you're actually seeing and also recommendations with what you'd like to see as well. Part of the issue is that, you know, accountability needs to happen on both sides. Accountability and, and the person that middle chair, they want to be held accountable. They love accountability. That is such an attractive equality to be held accountable to that. So for people in the middle chair, they, they have to realize and remember and remind themselves that people in that left, it's very hard. They're going to want kind of skirt around because their self worth is so attached to outcomes. So if you raise something that's accountable, they will a lot of times interpret as I'm not enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Versus this is just an outcome. This is data. This is so the feedback fragile piece is really important when we're giving that feedback. So this is just about feedback. This isn't about you. This is about the feedback and the data.

Yeah.

So I would love us to figure out a way that we can kind of really solve this together. The focus is really around I care about you, I'm concerned for you. This is the problem. Can we have a conversation about how we can fix it together?

Yeah.

And all of a sudden it becomes a conversation versus a reprimand.

I love that. The other thing I was thinking of too is we began doing trainings in our production meetings and so we would have, we would take a concept like.

Not having, you know, having fear of talking to a leader or leadership skills and talking to a team member that is more of a sensitive conversation to begin as a way to begin to have a, a training methodology to train our leaders or train our aspiring leaders because we did it with the entire team. So we never use specific examples. We use a lot of general examples of you know, that we see this as mature behavior, we see this as immature behavior kind of thing. The other thing I was just thinking of too, when you said, especially when you brought up worth.

I would say that worth is probably a centerpiece of both outside chairs. Both. Both white chairs.

Yeah.

Because I know as a leader, one of the reasons I was trying to mask it and cover it up for as long as I did before I finally became self aware and started working to become a great leader was I had a very low sense of self worth, which is, you know, very early childhood and all kinds of stuff and, and whatnot. And I find that most folks that I see in businesses nowadays, unless they've actually been through a training or, you know, things of that nature, struggle with worth. My good friend Jamie Kern Lima just released her a brand new book called Worthy. And the. The whole thing is centers around worth.

Yes.

So I want to talk a little bit more about worth in each of the categories of the chair as a way to maybe point a good little spotlight on each of the chairs so our audience and watchers and listeners can maybe identify with one of the chairs and then go pick up the book and then obviously work with you guys to get more towards the red chair.

Yes. Yes. So Worth is this. If. If I was kind of boil this whole concept together, it's a leadership framework, it's a mindset. It's about confidence, about emotional intelligence, but really with what it is, it's about understanding your worth. 100. You actually nailed it. Because the person in the left and the right chair. Okay, the left and the right chair. The mindset is I'm. I'm not enough.

Yeah.

When we kind of peel all the stuff behind it, I'm not enough. And so therefore the thinking is I'm okay, if. Yeah, fill in the blank. I make this amount. Amount of money, I start this amount of companies, I have this weight, I marry this person, I look like this, and we just kind of fill in the blank. And so what happens is with. Subconsciously people start chasing these things in their life because they're like, I need to get fill in the blank because then I'll be okay. And what I find really fascinating, like I started working with C suite about 20 years ago. I started in the family practice and then did that for the first 10 years and then transitioned to organizations. And pretty early on I started working with C suites. And I was. I'll never forget, it was a. It was a president's entrepreneurs conference I spoke at and I was teaching the three Chairs because I realized at the time that I could actually, I started teaching the three chairs to high school students and then I started training it to companies. Yeah. I'll never forget, I spoke at this conference and I taught the concept and they loved it. And then afterwards they're like, well, Karen, can you stick around and do some Q and A? And you know, and it was myself and there was like two other speakers and we both, you know, we all kind of talked about different topics and just a chance to kind of like talk to these leaders.

Yeah.

One by one they started coming up and they, they started sharing kind of whispering. I sit in the left chair and I struggle with my self worth, the next one, and then the next one. Because one of the things that I said in my keynote was your net worth is not based on like, your self worth is not based on your net worth.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter how much money you have. It doesn't matter how, you know, what, what salary, what degrees. Like, your self worth has nothing to do with that. And so for a lot of people, they, they, it was kind of like this, aha. Moments like, oh my goodness, I have been chasing something thinking that's going to give me my net worth, and all of a sudden I have the net worth and it's still not filling me up.

Yeah.

And so, and you probably experience that.

Absolutely.

Right.

Absolutely.

So. So what happens is sometimes we don't know what we're even chasing until we have it. And we're like, we might get that, like, little high after we get it. And it's like. And then it, we kind of go.

It falls off really quickly.

It falls off really fast.

It really does.

And so, and so the biggest thing with this middle chair is that person that says, I am enough, period. There's no ifs, there's no buts. It doesn't matter if I have this amount of money or this amount, if I have this friend, this body, doesn't matter. I'm enough, period. And when we, when we really adopt that mindset, all of a sudden there's a sense of peace.

Yeah.

That's why a lot. Very few people in that middle chair struggle with anxiety.

Yeah.

Because anxiety sits well.

They're not trying to prove themselves to anything or anyone.

They're right. There's such a pressure off. The pressure is off. It's like, there's a sense of stability. There's a sense of, there's a sense of I'm enough, period. So I still want this goal and I want to chase this goal, but my self worth isn't based on it. And because of that they tend to be, I find, more fearless.

Well, and I think you're 100% right there. I would actually say that the things that you're typically chasing begin to find you when you begin to sit in that middle seat.

Yes.

Because the dialogue. Every time you have a client interaction, you, you don't have the self worth in the, in the subconscious. Every time you have a sales interaction, you don't have the self worth in the subconscious. Every time you need to have a difficult conversation with a team member, you don't have a self worth in the conscious. And, and I'm 48 years old and I would say, I would legitimately say I haven't had a firm grasp of my own self worth for like the last three years. Maybe four. Maybe four. There was a time it was about obviously earning it to show everybody that I could do it because, you know, I was the underdog or whatever. Right. And it was. And that served me well for a time and they got me in trouble later. So there's different emotions that kind of evolve over time. It kind of builds you up over time. And.

Even when I, even, even, even when deciding to retire or exit from, from a company that I, that I, that I built over 25 years.

There was a, there was a freedom in knowing that I had done that I had, I was good, I had done enough. Like, I don't have to do another podcast, I don't have to build another business. I don't, you know, all I have to do is be good, a good human trying to do good work in the, in the world.

Right.

You know, and from that, I kind of drive a certain level of. I wouldn't call it self worth, but I would call it a certain level of purpose.

You know, so it's funny, when self worth is out of the way, purpose seems to take. Purpose seems to show.

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I love that. Well, because the purpose is your. Why your purpose is what you're chasing. So before, when we're kind of in that, in those that left and right share, we're driven to fill in the blank.

Yeah.

Okay. So we're driven to. Because I need to get this thing to fill my cup because then I'm going to be okay. So that becomes. So when we realize, like, no, there's a period I'm okay period, I'm, I'm enough period.

Yep.

All of a sudden our purpose changes. Purpose how? It's like it's like our emotional capacity build up. Right. So we have all this. We have all this love inside of ourselves. So we actually then have to give to other people. So I think a lot of times all of a sudden the purpose starts kicking in. Legacy starts kicking in for a lot of leaders and they kind of like that when they kind of get to this place of peace and serenity.

Yeah.

Kind of like I feel so fulfilled and so blessed. I kind of want to bless other people. So the whole, the whole lens changes.

Yeah.

So which is. It sounds like that's where you're at. That's kind of.

I mean, that's, I mean it's, that's. That's your. When your frame of reference changes. I mean, was it. Wayne Dyer said it best when the things you look at change the way or when you change the way you look at things. The things you look at change. Yeah, I was like one of those, like guru live truths that you're never gonna, you know, it's just amazing. Yes, I do have one. I know we're running out of time, but I have, I have one. One subject I think is super important that I want to just get your. Your thoughts on. You know, we. We've kind of talked about worth. We've talked about, you know, arrogance and passivity. We've talked about a lot of different things that kind of build up these different attitudes and these different perspectives and these different chairs. I'm curious to know how much self sabotage has shown up in your work, specifically because I, I've seen some of that obviously in a couple of the chairs. I'm just curious what you. What the research has shown, what maybe what you've heard back from your audience feedback at your keynotes, all that good stuff.

Yeah, the self sound. That's a great question. The self sabotage is very much of the bit, the outcome, unfortunately, that actually happens. You know, 80 to 90% of our behavior is actually unconscious. I mean, it's a crazy amount.

Yeah.

And. And so you think about how many of us are making decisions with our business, our money, our body, our friendships, our who we're dating. All of this, like this, like under. It's like this underground subconscious is guiding and we're not even aware of it. This is the part that is actually so crazy. And so that's why when we talk about leadership, the more we can actually start to kind of shrink that and actually have more awareness. And we're like, oh, wow, I'm doing this. Okay, that's actually not good. So I need to learn how to change it. Right. But. But if we're not aware of it, then we actually can actually self sabotage over and over again.

Yeah.

And so, you know, one of the biggest ways that people actually self sabotage, I mean, there's lots of different ways, but one of the biggest ways that's really evident for people kind of get their head around is actually around relationships.

Yeah.

So people in that left chair. In the left chair are unconsciously attracted to people in the right chair.

Yep. And vice versa.

And vice versa. And so because they're thinking is, I'm okay if whatever, I have this partner, whatever. So all of a sudden they're now attracted. They're both attracted to each other. And it is a self sabotage in terms of. It's a predictability because nobody can make anybody complete their happiness. Everybody is responsible to getting themselves in the middle chair. And so. So that is, I would say the relationship one is a big one. The other one that's really powerful in terms of self sabotage is around goal setting and around the anxiety piece, actually, because the self sabotage around perfectionism and procrastinating, putting things off. I'm okay if I get this goal, but because I have my perfectionism and my anxiety now, I'm gonna actually delay it. Now all of a sudden I'm gonna miss the target. So all of a sudden now just. I've just self sabotaged myself. And so I would say relationships and goal setting, and it would be the two that I see show up the most as it relates to self sabotage.

I knew you knocked it out of the court.

We can change it. And listen, I want everybody to know we can change it. This is not genetic. We can all get ourselves in the middle chair. I always want to make sure that the, the message of hope gets really, really loud. This is not an easy process, but it is a it. I wouldn't say, Would I say it's simple? I think it is there. There's a roadmap to do it. I mean, I've done it years. So would I say it's easy? I don't think I would say it's easy, but it is definitely there. There is a roadmap and it's. And it's worth it. I mean, you're living proof of it. So what would you say? Would you say the process is easy?

I would not, definitely not say the process is easy. But I would say it was worth it.

But it was worth it.

It was worth it. Yeah. The, the, the benefits far outweigh the, the tension. If that Makes any sense. I always tell people all the time, you're. You're one choice away from amazing.

Yes.

I mean, seriously. And if you can just get to that level, you just make that choice. It. It'll start, it'll set you on a dominant. It's. It's kind of like a trajectory path. Right. One choice sends you this way or sends you that way.

Yeah.

Right. If you just make enough choices that send you this way. I mean, your life. I mean, my life is radically different than it was, you know. Right. 30 years ago. You know, I'm not. I'm not sleeping on bar friend's car or, you know, I'm just. I'm very, very different place. But it's because of those repetitive choices of choosing to want to get better. Not when I say get better, not as if I was broken, but as if I could become more than I. I thought I was. If that makes any sense.

Well, it. You. You have a classic mindset. Right? I mean, you are. You had them. You had the desire to grow and to evolve, and that. Right. That has served you well. And that is something I always want people listening to, to listen to this and to be inspired, going. I want that. I want to sit in the middle. I want to feel a sense of confidence. I want to understand my sense of worth. I want to be surrounded by people that are going to value me. I want to learn how to set boundaries, and I want to live without less anxiety. All of that is possible. We just have to lean into it and learn the tools how to do it.

Yeah. No, I love that.

I just really hope that people have that sense of hope after listening to.

Oh, a thousand percent. And we. We went super tactical in a lot of different ways. And. And, you know, I. I always try to share from an honest place with the audience specifically because one thing that aggravates me to no end is. Is thought leaders that I have. Everything's perfect for me. Just do what I. You know, it's like that's not even reality. I would rather show. I would rather share my scars so we can create some success paths for them. Maybe prevent some of this tension and extra tension. I know we're over time. I'm gonna mention one more thing because you just mentioned it, which I think is brilliant. Part of that tension is the following. The falling away of the relationships that shouldn't be in your life.

Yeah.

Allow the space for the relationships that should be in your life. And there's a distance between the two. You got about six months of Cleaning the crap up. Six months of waiting and then six months of the new.

I talk about all the time to, to do you need to do a relationship audit? I was on Live with Ellie and Mark last month and I was doing a segment for them because I do leadership relationship topics and it was all around relationships and how to choose people in your life. And you can apply it to friendship, you can apply to dating, you can apply it to, you know, who you're hiring, you can apply right across the board. But when people go through this evolution, you know, one of the most interesting things when I do, I still do coaching one on one. Not a ton of it because I do mostly in terms of organizational cultures and training. But I leave a little bit of time still for doing that one on one coaching because I it to me, it's. I just love really kind of going deep with, with certain leaders. And one of the things that I find over and over again is people will say to me, karen, it's so interesting as I'm working with you, I'm finding my friendships are changing, my relationships are changing. Somebody's like all of a sudden they're like, they're like, what is happening? I'm like, I know, but you know what? But that's what happens sometimes you go through this period where all of a sudden, because all of a sudden when you get in that middle chair, you realize, oh, I have a lot of people in my life that are in that left and right chair. And so you might go through a bit of a season where it can be lonely. Right. And so then you have to kind of start finding your tribe, finding your people, finding. And they exist. Sometimes we just have to expand.

Yeah. And again, there's. It's funny how the, it's funny how gravity works, right? You will. You will. If you're changing, embedding yourself, you're going to attract in that better change self as well. I know we're way over on time. We could talk for hours and days. I'm loving this.

We're just gonna have to do 2.0, that's all.

Before we say goodbye, give them the website one more time so they can go and get. Get started with you.

Sure. Great. Thank you. So it's www.dk stands for Dr. Karen leadership.org and you'll find all kinds of amazing resources. You've got the scorecard and the parenting report card. We've got business tools, lots of great stuff on our leadership academy. So great place to start.

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on stoppable. I can't wait to do this again.

Awesome. Thanks so much.

All right, take care. I hope you liked that video. And if you did, make sure you check out this next video right here. Everyone listening. Your products, your services, your idea, the things you talk about in speeches. You just don't know where they're going to go into the world and the. The impact that they're going to have on people. It could be huge. You might have no idea.