WATCH THIS To Tackle Goals Like A Navy Seal TODAY! | Stephen Drum

Sometimes we need that person who's going to give us the unvarnished, radically candid truth. And it's, it's a swift kick in the butt to get us moving.

Well, look, you know, you've been training high performance teams for an awful long time, right? You've got a lot of experience doing that. You've been all over the world. You've been in all kinds of clandestine missions in the past. What types of things have you seen in life, business and career maybe that are kind of identity traits of high levels of peak performers?

I would say right off the bat, the high performance are very, those folks are very deliberate and very focused, you know, and I always, I always say, hey, if you want to do something and be your best in terms of high stakes performance, being your best person, when things don't necessarily always go according to plan, then you've really got a back, you've really got it to back plan that all the way out. And I say, when I work with folks, I said, hey, this is going to sound kind of crazy, but let's think about designing your performance like we would a combat operation in the SEAL teams, which considers all of the knowledge, skills, attributes that you need, the relationships, the connections, the resources. Okay? And then we're going to take what we've learned beforehand and we're going to put that into the recipe, put that into the mix. We're going to practice, we're going to rehearse, we, we're going to develop our mental game so we can perform it all in the clutch. And when it's all said and done, we're probably going to do this, we're probably going to revisit this again. So we're going to take the lessons learned in a very deliberate and systematic lessons learned process to really extract the value from those experiences so we can tweak it and fine tune it and be even better next time.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Obviously you guys in the, with the seals, you know, part of the process.

Is the, is the natural evolutions, as you guys call them, right in the teams.

How have you equated evolution to peak performers outside of the seals into our.

You know, the marketplace specifically? What have you seen that's, that's really working to help people take it to the next level?

Well, I think, you know, there's so, we're so cluttered now. You know, the nice thing about the military, it's very like, you do have a structure now. We're always constantly trying to be creative and be innovative. In the development of our tactics and our procedures. But for the most part, we kind of are like, all right, we can clear this distraction aside and be, you know, completely focused. And what I see now is people are constantly. They're busy, but are they just being busy or are they busy or productive? Are they being better? And I think if you look at like, all right, let's step back from all this noise. Let's step out of this traffic for a bit. And one of the things that I really like to talk about is let's figure out how we can be brilliant on basics, right? In the SEAL teams. That's our ability to kind of identify, select, prioritize, and attempt some mastery at some of the most fundamentals of our craft. And so I always invite people to say, hey, what are three to five things that, you know, you could be like, 10% better at, right? Or even 1% better at? If I start doing these things, that happens automatically. I'm not. I'm in a routine, I'm in a habit. I'm not spending brain power on that. Instead, my attention is diverted to where it needs to be. Focus, engagement, being present and being effective.

Well, you know, on the concept of focus, I mean, when it comes down to actually eliminating distractions, what are some common tools and policies or principles that you guys use as a whole to eliminate distractions? Because that's, you know, in this day and time, you got your, you know, the phone that goes off, you got the computer ding, you got all these different things and family responsibilities. I mean, how can somebody actually focus in a given moment?

Well, you know, what's interesting is way back in the day when I came in, I went through Bud's basic underwater demolition SEAL training, which is our basic six month selection assessment process. And throughout my journey into, you know, being eventually a senior leader in the SEAL teams, we realized that, hey, we're constantly doing reps and sets. We're constantly trying to get better at our shooting skills, at our tactics, and being better physically. What we finally realized after all this time was like, we've got to spend, you know, an equal amount of time developing our mindset, developing our brains. And so I was fortunate to be tapped to help create this program for the Navy called Warrior Toughness, to get our sailors and officers tougher and being able to perform under extreme stresses of combat and military life. But what I really say is, hey, when it comes to kind of focus and not just like the distractions of the things happening around you, but the distractions of you reacting, maybe In a non helpful way to emotional responses or whatever. You get frustrated, you get angry, you get scared, and those emotions tend to get in the way of you getting what you want, of you being who you want in certain situations. And so I'm a big believer in basic performance psychology skills. Mental rehearsal, self talk, being able to lower the arousal and mindfulness training or meditation training. In fact, that's a lot of things that I teach.

Yeah, no, and it's come, it's come so very far. You know, it's. When I was looking into what little bit I could find on the, on the warrior toughness training, you know, there's. It seems like not only does it increase peak performance, but it looks like it also decreases the likelihood or the, or the chances of developing, you know, PTSD in high, in high stress situations. It seems like it gives a, you know, a soldier, you know, quite a bit more framework really, to kind of funnel their thoughts and their emotions through things. Is that correct?

Well, it is in. We, you know, a lot of times people will try to use the warrior toughness program to be kind of a panacea or for all things for, for pts or for, you know, suicide prevention. And we honestly, we try to stay clear of that because a lot of times when we brief our program to senior military folks as congressmen, senators, they would always kind of ask us, was this one of these resiliency programs? Because resiliency is like a cuddly word. And we're like, well, here's where we differentiate the toughness from resilience. Right. And it can be controversial in the unpacking of that, but we always say like, hey, you can be tough.

Or you can be resilient but not tough. But you can't be tough and not resilient. Meaning resilience is like, hey, I've been through adversity, I faced setback, I faced a moral or physical injury, and now I can return to where I was. Well, in combat, that's not quite good enough because I need you to have a certain capability and capacity on the front end. Now I want you to get back to that after you've had a traumatic event. But I need you to have a certain degree of competence on the front end. And so that's what a lot of our training is geared toward.

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing training. What little bit I was able to discover about it, I was excited to talk to you about it because I think it's needed. I do a lot of work with USO myself. I volunteer and Go speak for them for their warrior reset programs. And sometimes we'll have private units of special forces, sometimes it's all encompassing of different jobs. But one of the things that I see a lot of the special forces specifically deal with a lot of times is the moral injury, the side of the moral injury, you know, trying to get to there. And, you know, as a person of faith, in certain circumstances, I can communicate that a little bit. But, you know, I would say, you know, well, David was not only a poet, but he was also a warrior. Like there's two sides to the coin at any given time to actually, you know, basically not only return to your life, but also be a peak performer in that specific, you know, job description, so to speak.

Well, the warrior toughness program itself was built on like, we call it kind of a tripod or three legged stool, right? It's body, mind, soul. And so we need warriors to be people who can perform under pressure, that can take a hit and keep going, which is that resilience piece, right? And we've extended these definitions far beyond just battle, right? We also need like, hey, you just suffer a loss in your life for you to not get that promotion you wanted, for that to be a moment for you to be resilient. And then lastly, we need to also for you to deal with the day in, day out grind, either of a high temp, high tempo deployment or also, you know, a very monotonous one. And so besides the people that can perform when the bullets are flying, we need people, young men and women, to be of character, of good character, right, that are underpinned by really understanding kind of who they are, what they stand for, and how they're going to demonstrate their values, their virtues, and bring that into alignment with, you know, at the time, Navy core values of honor, courage and commitment. But them to really realize, hey, are the decisions that I'm making, are the choices that I'm making. Is the way in which I'm behaving right now in alignment with that and is in alignment with who that I say that I am as a person?

Yeah. Speaking of that, you know, you. I don't want to solely focus on your Navy career, even though it's an amazing career, which I want to honor for sure. But I can't help but be curious, right? So the, obviously the Navy SEAL program itself is a very elite program. And then also to become a master chief in that program as a whole, nother level to begin with. What actually led you to the SEALs to begin with, what. What made you gravitate towards the seals.

Well, I always, even ever since a young kid, I just had a connection with the military and I realized, you know, I had this draw towards elite warriors, right? But typically that originally it was Army Green berets in Vietnam. The guys, you know, especially the guys who were going across the, the borders into the denied areas of Laos, Cambodia, North Vietnam, where they weren't supposed to be the super secret operations, highly dangerous. And that was kind of the draw. Those guys were my heroes to me. But I had an uncle, in fact, that's his aviation helmet behind me. He retired Navy guy, airline pilot. He was like, hey. He was like, you should consider the Navy, their special operations forces, they're called seals. And I started reading more about it and I'm like, these guys are pretty badass. And, you know, their, their selection process is really hard. If I can go through that, if I can make it through that training, then I will really accomplish something in my life. And that's really kind of where it all started.

Well, as it relates to, you know.

Life and business and things like, because.

Obviously you're, you've retired from the Navy.

But you're still very much a master chief in my eyes.

Very much.

Very much one. Right. You carry the presence of it. You can tell that you've led people and led people in high stakes circumstances like you exude that.

How have you been able to translate.

That into the executive business world?

Because I know a lot of what.

You'Re doing now is executive business coaching and mentorship programs.

You know, how did you make that.

Transition and why did you make the transition?

Well, I tell the stories, right. When I come in and talk to organizations, when I'm coaching individuals, you know, they like to hear the stories. But I tell the stories that represent the extreme examples, right, of when bullets are flying, when it's literally life or death. Right? And that's exciting, it's fun. But then I quickly pivot and say, what you deal with for your high stakes situation, what you deal with when your life goes off script is not anywhere near as different as you might think it is to those situations when it's actual life or death. Because when we're in those moments when we're prone to lash out, when we're frustrated or angry, when we're prone to shut down or lock up, when we feel fear or anxiety and we can't be the type of people we need to be both at work and at home with our families, then it's really not that different. And the same type of skills that we use for those extreme situations are the same type of things that I'm going to teach you so you can succeed in your high stakes moment. And again, that could be a business deal, a pitch, it could be anything. But it could also be, hey, I'm driving down the road, my kids are yelling and my wife's telling me not to tailgate and I'm just starting to lose my mind. Right. That's a high stakes moment because that is an opportunity for me to either model poor or model positive behavior for my children and leave my family. And so again, a high stakes situation, it's a subjective term. Right. But it's anytime that it's important that you be the type of person to get you to your goals and the type of person that you want to be and that you're proud of.

Yeah. So the skill sets basically help you go from if I'm, if I'm just common, most common denominator from reaction to response, reactions, emotional, whatever response is. Okay. Process, thought, action, execute.

No, that's exactly right. Now, there's a lot that goes into that, but we're very big. One of the things that I, one of my mantras and I didn't come up with it right, I heard it in the SEAL teams, we want to respond versus react. And that goes, that's consistent with one of the famous expressions that we have in the SEAL teams, which is, hey, when life is on the line, when the bullets are flying, you're not going to magically rise to the occasion. You're not going to just do this incredible thing. You know, you hear stories of that, but those are outliers. Instead what you're going to do is you're going to fall to your level of training. You're going to fall to that level of preparation. So how you're, how you're going to succeed when it really, really matters is going to be dependent on what kind of work that you put in in terms of the skills, the attributes, but also your investment into the mental skills and the mindset to perform those skills and those sequences, procedures, whatever that is, you know, translate that knowledge when the stakes are high, your ability to do that, it only happens when you put the work in.

Now are, you know, obviously spending so, so many years with the seals and Master Chief training seals and everything like that. Curious to know. You know, obviously buzz and hell week is synonymous. Everybody, you know, hears about buzz buds and hell week on a regular basis. No one knows the intensity of it unless you've actually been through it, let's just be honest, with all that training, are you, Were you able, did you get to the point where you could actually look at individuals, you know, platoons of men coming in, wanting to be SEALs and have an idea who might pass and who might fail?

Well, mostly like, you know, you're coming in, you're taking the whole. Most of the pass fail stuff is done at BUDS training, as I alluded to earlier. And in the nutrition rates, anywhere from to 75 to 90%, in some cases, 75 to 90% of those people will wash out. Primarily it's because they're just not willing to pay the price to do the job, to make it into our community. And of course, there's outliers, there's injuries, there's performance failures, ethical breaches and things like that. And you know, for years we as the community have hired psychologists, psychiatrists, done studies, research, all to find what is that recipe that makes people be able to succeed. And, you know, and it may have trended in certain places. I know we were big on, on, you know, hiring wrestler or recruiting wrestlers, but, you know, at the end of the day, there's really just no predictor of it right now. When somebody makes it through all that training and they show up at the first SEAL team, we still get rid of a lot of people because they may be tough, they may have. Because BUDS only really exposes you to the very, very basics. Yeah, and it's only, and still, it's an assessment. You're taught diving, you're taught weapons, handling explosives, but that's really only to assess your suitability and your, your safe, your ability to work safely in those mediums in those conditions. Once you make it to the SEAL team, that's when, that's when things start moving out at a fast pace. Now you have to compete or you have to work with the guys have been doing it for a number of years and not everybody can, can keep up with that. And again, not everybody demonstrates the moral character to be, to be somebody who's gonna thrive in that job or somebody that we want in our community. And in that case, sometimes you're looking at, you're watching people as a leader very, very closely and evaluating them under an intense amount of scrutiny. And sometimes you can start to see, you can start to see somebody your attention focuses in and you're watching them hard to see if they necessarily have what it takes to actually stay here, contribute, belong, collaborate before.

Well, one of the things that I, that you just mentioned, and there was so much there to unpack, but the ability to pay the price. You know, in my life, coming from homelessness to where I'm at today, there was lots of prices paid. I've had people that have, obviously that I've, that I've witnessed in business that have started out with a lot of gusto. I got it and made things amazing. And then life hits them, business hits them, and they don't get back up. So it seems like to me one of the commonalities or the common denominators between being super successful in the military and the special Forces and being super successful in business or life in general is the ability to pay the price. What does paying the price look like to you in your eyes?

Well, you know, one of the fundamental thing that I talk about, if you look at a lot of. I teach through one of the contextual models that I teach through. If you think of it as a, as a reflective cycle, it starts with like three circles that are connected with an arrow, meaning that it's cyclical, right. And it doesn't stop. It's commit, prepare, execute, and then reflect. It has to start with commit, right? Your level of investment into the things that make you better, into the relationships that matter to you. Right. And if you're willing to do that, you have to say, okay, well, how am I demonstrating this? Where am I showing up as an indication of how important it is that I, that I get there? Because if you don't have that, if you haven't realized, if you haven't reconciled with yourself that I am willing to do whatever it takes. And a lot of times, you know, people start off Navy SEAL training, they start off to become doctors or, you know, they even start off like a four year degree, right? They're excited. Things are. The future holds excitement. But somewhere between that first step and that and that light at the end of the tunnel, there is a hell of a lot of work that needs to get put in, right? And sometimes people, they can't step back emotionally and say, yes, what I'm doing. I knew it was gonna be hard, right? I acknowledge that this is all part of the process. And I'm a big believer in the stoicism at capital S. Stoic principles of from thousands of years ago, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, people like that. And they would spend a lot of time thinking about all of the bad things that could happen, right? Or all the things that, the times that things aren't going to turn out the way they want, the times that life's going to go off Script and they say, all right, well, how am I going to respond in those situations?

Yeah.

You know, and I am. I was funny, I was working on a video on this today. Right. Mom always taught us to think positively, right? Yeah, yeah, positively. And there's a reason for that, right. Because we don't want to. They know, the people that tell us that in life know that nobody wants to surround themselves with negative people. We want to be able to enjoy the fruits of life and we want to limit the amount of self limiting beliefs we have to get in the way of our goals. But fundamentally we have to recognize from the outset that things are going to get ugly, things are going to go off track. Right. It's. How are we going to respond in those moments? And you've got to mentally rehearse how you're going to respond when things go sideways, what kind of a person you're going to be. And sometimes things get so bad when we suffer loss that all we can do is say, I'm going to demonstrate that I'm a person of conviction and character and act in a state of grace. So I think that's critical.

No, it absolutely is. You know, and it goes so deep into what I would refer to as developing true leadership. And you mentioned a few minutes ago about the, you know, the importance of leadership in general, obviously with everything that you've done in your career. Right. And it's been amazing. Amazingly distinguished, for sure. So there's a great deal of knowledge that I, that I guarantee you possess about assessing leadership, creating leadership and then following through with leadership. What are some examples of things that we can give to the everyday person right now in developing, shaping and creating leadership in their own lives?

Well, a lot of times, you know, I'll say as the organizational leader, we're very quick to identify the future leader, the emerging leader, based upon the talent that they're exhibiting right now. And my little daughter's giving me coffee, so thanks.

It's all right.

Thank you, sweetie.

Everybody needs more caffeine to hang out with me.

Yes, I certainly. I'm so jazzed up. Anyway, it's probably not what I need. Love you, honey. But.

We focus on that person because they are good at their craft in that present moment. Yet when they step into that moment, all of a sudden they need to have a totally different set of skills. And those require emotional intelligence, those require vision, they require poise. And if we don't train that in, if we don't take a deliberate approach towards developing leadership skills independent of the technical skills Then we're not setting ourselves up, we're not setting other people up for success. And I think when it comes to developing our leadership skills, we said, all right, well, how do I be the type of person that I want in any specific event and how do I build backwards? What knowledge, skills, attributes do I need to perform at the rudimentary level? Now when things are worst case, when it's very, very critical, are there additional skills, resources that I need to perform at that higher level? And I think it's a lot of times leadership is such a broad term and I try to neck it down.

A little bit, right.

Because. Cause people would be like, oh, well, leadership is me getting out of bed and doing my daily tasks.

That's called life.

Got it. Okay. But when I think leadership, I think if it's you and you are deliberately trying to shape your sphere of influence, you're deliberately trying to inspire and persuade people with vision, with motivation backed up by discipline. And so it's gotta be very, very intentional. And you have to say, all right, this is exactly where I want to go. This is exactly where you, the person that is fundamentally working for you, this is what your execution piece looks like in support of the overall objective, the overall intent. And we also have to let people have the autonomy to, when it's allowable to make some mistakes, to kind of feel things out, to be creative. We can't constantly. Now there's intrusive, there's micromanagement, leadership that has to kind of manifest itself often early on in development of that trust, leadership, subordinate journey. But eventually we have to be deliberate about starting to back up, back away from that. Getting people to kind of feel their legs and let them stumble a little bit. Right. If they're way off target, we got to bring them back in and have a conversation. But if they're just a little out there, then let's take that opportunity for growth. That's starting to tighten up that performance a little bit. But fundamentally, we got to let people kind of figure it out because without that, they're never going to take initiative, they're never going to feel confident, to execute, to make a decision without you constantly telling them what to do.

Yeah, they'll always be second guess, second guessing and doubting, you know, when it comes down to leadership. One of the things I've always believed about leadership, and this is something I tell my teams is, you know, be the kind of leader you want to report to. Right. So whatever trait that, that that possesses, be that, strive to be that, you know, you mentioned earlier about shaping, you know, not only, you know, shaping your environment, shaping your day, shaping your influence, shaping your, like, all that kind of stuff is, I think, is instrumental in becoming a great leader. With that in mind, I am curious. You know, it's. I'm a. I'm a person who believes in mentorship at a great deal. In fact, most of the mentors that I have, the world doesn't really know much about, even though I put myself out here on a regular bas. Now I'm curious to know one or two mentors maybe that you've had or leaders that you've had that you just really gravitated towards, you learned so much from that, made a difference in your life, and maybe one or two things that you learned from them.

Yeah, I had a variety of different people. And it's funny because. And I'll try to answer your question directly.

Yeah, no worries.

In terms of who they were, I think I'd like to first say that we should try to construct our own leadership panel in our life. Right. And assemble that team of mentors and assemble that team of leaders above us that all represent the different areas of support we need.

Right.

Sometimes we need that person who's going to give us the unvarnished, radically candid truth, and it's, It's a swift kick in the butt to get us moving. Sometimes we need that person who's going to be the coach, who's going to be supportive, who's going to pick us up a little bit when we're having a bad day. And sometimes we need the people that are going to give us those, Those very specific technical skills we need in terms of like, hey, you actually need to do this. These specific things next. Right. We need those different kind of people, the mentors. You know, I'll go back to my. To my own father. I looked at, you know, who, who modeled, you know, extreme kindness and a sense of humor. And my uncle that I, that I mentioned earlier, who was always. I was probably very, very difficult to deal with as a young man, as a kid, but he always modeled that patience as a pilot. You know, you gotta be cool, calm, collected, under. Under fire, under pressure. And he was that. And he modeled that for me. And, you know, in the SEAL teams, you know, as a new guy coming up in the SEAL teams in the 1990s, at least, it's not the most hospitable environment for a new guy because you've got everything to prove nobody cares. You've been through a tough selection process that matters not to anyone. They've all done it, too. We need to know that you're going to show up, you're going to have your ears open, your mouth shut, and you're going to be able to execute the things we need you to do with a good character. And so you do catch a lot of abuse for that, right? And sometimes it goes a little overboard. Sometimes people are a little overzealous and just becomes that, hey, we just want to. We just like screwing with you. Right? And so you duck around, you try to avoid those people. Then I remember there's one guy, though, who always just went out of his way, experienced guy, went out of his way to grab me up and other new guys and say, look, you know, because you'd be doing a bunch of grunt work, stupid stuff. And he's like, look, you come with me. I'm going to take you out of here. We're going to go do some work. I'm going to teach you something. And so he was constantly doing that, teaching me how to set up a land navigation course, constantly teaching me how to tweak my gear, because we didn't have. We had to make and sew and make up a lot of our gear back then. And we need to, you know, as a. As a machine gunner, I needed to know how to float all my weapon and equipment when we went across the beach. And so he was constantly teaching me that stuff. So those are the three, I think, very formative mentors in my life.

Well, that being said, obviously, you know, you've now been a mentor to so many other people. You know, first in the Navy, wonderful career. Again, can't thank you enough for your service, by the way.

Thank you.

Secondly, now you're doing it in the business sector, in the marketplace. What are some of the common commonalities or traits that you want to be remembered for as you make an impact in other people's lives?

I'd like to.

I would like to think people would remember me as being somebody that's. That leads with humility. I think that's a trait that's so important because.

Without that, people aren't going to be willing to offer you kind of their best wisdom advice. If you're humble, it means that if you lead with that, it means you're willing to learn. And I think, like, one of the things, you know, in the SEAL teams, we can definitely come across as arrogant. You know, especially the younger guys, you know, they. They have that chip on their shoulder. But ultimately, we recognize expertise. Like, it doesn't matter. We would have people that would, you know, mountain guides, professional shooters, and they're like, hey, we got to defer to the expertise. Right. They've never maybe shot, you know, on a two way range.

Yeah.

Like a lot of us have. But they're experts in this very specific thing. I'd like to also be known as the person that would kind of to step back, look around, be known as somebody that works to be better at their craft every day. But also most importantly, somebody that would do for those to the left and right of them. Right. Because the very first thing they teach us in SEAL training when we show up, they're like, fellas, you're not getting through this training on your own.

Yeah.

You know, for those of you make it through, you're not going to go on to the SEAL teams, SEAL teams and do great things by yourself. It's got to be about the people to the left and right of you. Right. You've got to do for others. People's got to trust that you'll do that. And so I hope that people, you know, see me as that.

Yeah, no, I think you're definitely well on your way, for sure. I mean, one of the things that I've always admired about the SEAL teams.

Is their perspective on we don't leave people behind.

Like, you know, that's, and that's, it permeates all the way from the beginning of training, all the way to combat and then after, unfortunately, when some people make the ultimate sacrifice. You mentioned earlier a minute ago about leading with humility, about, you know, wanting to have that be one of the core traits, obviously that you're, you're, you're remembered for it and you pour into other people. I think so many times people get really confused about what leading with humility actually is. Like they're not really sure what that is. Is it, is it. I'm a pushover and I let my team kind of push over me and they, you know, if I got a, I know we need to make this decision, but that let them influence me to tell them. Or is it, is it me barking at people but me, you know, secretly kind of caring about them? What is, what is leading, leading with humility look like in your world?

Well, you know, it's the last thing you said is, and I'm glad you asked this question because it is, it is an important one. People often.

And I think this stems from a lack of confidence as a leader. Right. People are put into situations and sometimes they're so afraid being seen as Weaker, unknowing, that they sometimes try to that, like, fake it till you make it. Which is in my view, the absolute wrong approach. Now, at a certain point, what I require from you as a leader is to be somebody who can take the information and at a certain point in time, be decisive and make a decision that moves the ball down the field. You have to be that person. But between then and the start, you've got to be the type of person that is humble enough to solicit the opinions from everybody. You know, and people think of the military as this hierarchical structure where we push everything down and you have these little robot soldiers doing exactly what everyone tells them to do. When in reality, at least in the special operations community, we're bottom up planning the operator, you know, the commander will give us exactly his or her intent, what they want the conditions on the ground to be after we've done a certain operation, but within certain operational constraints, rules of engagement, it's our job to come up with and creatively plan how we're going to execute this operation. And when it comes to how we getting in, how are we getting from where the helicopter drops us off to the structure we're taking down, how are we getting in the building? What creative pieces are we using to solve this problem? That comes from the very bottom, that comes from the guys, the very lowest level of team leaders. And so I think we have to recognize that. And you have to be willing to, if you want people that are willing to candidly express and be honest where they may have made a mistake, how do you expect that if you don't model that? And so as a leader, you know, you can always watch, like in politics, it's always, they made a mistake, I was successful. Right. That's just the nature of the beast. Right where it should be opposite. It's always like, they were awesome, they did a phenomenal job. I or we could have done this a better, you know. Right. And so I think you got to be able to model that. You've got to be able to say, hey, this is where maybe we missed it. And you got to funnel it, fundamentally, know, connect with people and let them know that they're being heard.

Yeah, No, I love it. You know, in fact, that, you know, a couple of things that pop into my mind is leading well, with humility.

At the center of that is the essence of collaboration. Right. You just mentioned how collaboration is essentially opens up the doorway to admit faults. It opens up the doorway for unique ideas. It opens up the doorway to actually, I Always I used to say, you know, questions, open hearts and statements, close them.

So, you know, a humble leader is.

Going to be asking lots of questions and do I have enough perspective? Do I have enough feedback? You see any blind spots?

What do you see?

You know, that kind of thing.

Whereas, you know, I've done this myself in business.

When I first started the business, I didn't want anybody to know I had been homeless and I didn't know what the hell I was doing, right? I was an ADHD high school dropout. Like no one.

I didn't want anybody to know that.

I had people with four and five year or four and eight year degrees working for me at the time, you know, but secretly I would go in.

My closet and pray like I don't know what I'm doing, you know, kind of thing.

Right.

You know, and I used to come.

Out of that leadership, out of that, you know, what I call the fear of the insecurity zone. I would come from that place which always came out in a very defensive posture or a very barky kind of personality. And experience taught me over time that.

Not only is it okay to share your faults, but it also opens the door for other people to share theirs. Right? And I'm so glad you hit the nail on the head on that one, because I think that leaders today need to know that they don't have to be the Incredible Hulk or Dwayne the Rock Johnson, constantly throwing up their eyebrow or something, you know, trying to be all super tough. It's actually about, okay, how can we help each other, you know, make this thing better. And, you know, since I've been doing that over the number last 10 years or so, I've watched teams basically blossom, you know, because, you know, I used to jump in, for example, and be like, hey, why'd you do that? Just move out of the way, let me do it. And then I would go do it and they would be like, what do you need me for right now? I intentionally. I'll let my leaders make three mistakes in a given track record before I actually engage myself. Mistake number one is, okay, what'd you learn from it?

Right?

Same mistake in the same direction. Number two. Okay, let's consider some different options here. Step number three is, okay, let me show you what I would have done had you been doing it, but you're driving the bus kind of scenario. And it seems like that leaders that gravitate towards that become exceptional in peak performance area areas like yourself. So when you look at all of that together and you look at everything that your career has to offer. What is the. What is the one gift of wisdom that we can drop with the podcast folks today?

I would say, you know, I'll make this succinct, but I didn't come out of the box some great leader. I failed.

Numerous times along the way. The one thing I had going for me was I had the ability and I had the discipline and commitment to push away and say and give myself an honest appraisal to free myself from some of the negative emotional attachment I have with my mistakes, because that's not going to serve me. Instead, focus on what can I distill to others and how can I do this better in my next leadership piece. So I'd say spend a lot of time objectively looking at your performance and seeing where you can improve. And that's not just the major failures that are embarrassing. That's also the areas which you've succeeded because you want to be able to further build that and you want to be able to repeat that level of success.

Yeah, man, love it. Love it. You know, I've always said that, you know, give all the credit away and accept all the blame or responsibility, and if you do that enough times, humility will begin to shape you consistently on a regular basis. Man, I have loved hanging out with you. Our time is, like, flown by. Oh, yeah, it's been amazing. How can everybody stay connected with you? What's next for you?

Yeah. So if you'd like to talk with me about anywhere I can help in leadership. You know, keynotes, virtuals. I do coaching, but just find me on my. On my website. If you just want to have a conversation about leadership, that's cool too. Stephendrum.com S T E P H E N D r u m.com and then or steve@stephendrum.com so looking forward to it.

Love it, man. Love it. And love the fact that your name is Stephen with a ph, because mine is. Right. I'm a little jealous. You have a lot more hair than I do, though. But that's okay.

Yeah, I got to get some of this stuff cut off here soon.

Rock on, man. I can't thank you enough for coming on. I know it's going to add a lot of value to a lot of folks. There is so much to unpack in the episode that we just. We just released or we just recorded, man. It's gonna. It's gonna help a lot of people. I know it else.

Well, thank you so much, Steven. It was a real pleasure.

It was a lot of fun. Rock on. All right. Take care, buddy. See ya.

See ya.

When it comes to leadership, you simply can't learn from anybody.

Better.

If you love that interview, I know you're gonna love this one right here, so go ahead and check it out.

So for me, I believe in fear. Less breaking the word in half and allowing fear to have less control over my next assignment, my next move. Because I know who's counting on me on the other side of what my fear is.